Serious Fascists in America (NewsReal Blog) – By David Horowitz


fascists

There are serious fascists in America. But they’re on the political Left.

I wrote yesterday about Glenn Beck’s feature on the violent demonstration by leftists in Pittsburgh (which was covered up by the New York Times and the rest of the left-wing media.) He also reported on the bombing of a radio tower in the State of Washington by the Earth Liberation Front — a left-wing terrorist organization — which went equally unreported. Instead we are treated to a rash of hand-wringings by liberals like Tom Friedman who talk about incitements that could lead to the assassination of President Obama.

Pete Wehner has an excellent blog on this hypocrisy, recalling that a film was actually made by leftists portraying the assassination of President Bush among many other incitements against him by leftists with no — absolutely no — complaints by Friedman and the NY Times. In fact the whole Democratic Party leadership accused Bush of lying to get us into a war and killing young Americans in the process. “Bush lied people died” was the favored leftist chant of the Iraq War, just like “Hey Hey LBJ How Many Kids Did You Kill Today?” was during the Vietnam War. The incitement to assassinate American presidents is the background music of the American left. “Captialism is evil!” “Our leaders are torturers!” “He BETRAYED us!” Screamed Al Gore one of the inciters — and liars –in chief.

What Wehner is too polite to mention is not only are the armies of the Left fascist in behavior but are in full-throated support of our terrorist enemies (whom they like to pretend are only enemies of apartheid Jews) — Hizbullah and Hamas. Every major leftist organization is in some kind of fraternal alliance with CAIR and the Muslim Students Association who sponsor genocidal speakers on college campuses and organize demonstrations to proclaim the birth of Israel on land confiscated from the Turks as a “catastrophe” and who call for the destruction of the Jewish state. But liberals like Friedman are so filled with venemous hatred of patriotic Americans on the right that the only fascism they can see are Tea Party picnickers on the capitol lawn.

  • Petronius

    I think your account of capitalism is simplistic to the point of being wrong. Capitalism is not simply a monetary economy. Nor is it freedom. Nor is it a free market. Capitalism is an economic situation where workers sell their labour to capitalists who thereby make a profit on the goods produced.

    And you make capitalism sound so clean and noble. Haven't you heard of worker's exploitation, low wages, sweat shops, child labour etc.? Where do these things fit into your thinking? I presume they don't but for me they illustrate that freedom and wealth for some can often mean poverty and hardship for others.

    For me, Capitalism is like a run-away train. Sure, it can produce the goods but it can also jump the tracks, and have a huge crash. Restrictions and guide-lines are therefore necessary. These measures are not socialistic, just prudent.

    As for Catholicism, I do think that it is anti-capitalistic. For over a thousand years Catholicism supported the feudal system of Western Europe so that it became difficult to separate the two. Catholicism still seems not to have reconciled itself to capitalism which it instinctively associates with its arch-enemy, Protestantism.

  • brimp

    As an animal, every thing that you do is done so to maximize what you perceive to pleasure and minimize what you perceive to be pain. Everything. Whether you give money to build an orphanage or to pay a prostitute for services rendered, you did so to maximize your pleasure. When you have a choice to distribute your good deed tokens (money) you can be responsible and make the decisions for your self or you can be irresponsible and let government decide. Even if you let government decide, you have done this for selfish reasons: you don't want the responsibility of thinking and possibly making mistakes.

    I don't see Catholics and Protestants as being enemies. The Catholics in America act like Protestants.

    I mentioned in an earlier post the concept of corporatism. You have not fully grasped the concept. You are confusing the run away train of corporatism with capitalism.

    Selling one's labor is a capitalistic act. The alternatives are living as a hermit or being someone’s slave. Capitalism is simple. As for the examples of 'defects' of capitalism that you cited: sweatshops, low wages, child labor, exploitation – I think you are confused. I need to use my time and talent to create goods and services that other people want more than their money. I am constantly looking on maximizing the amount of good that I can do (thereby getting the most money). We are all in competition to be better people; that is to create goods and services that other people want for less good deed tokens than anyone else. If I could not see a better way of making money other than working in a sweatshop then I would do so proudly. The person who offers me a job that has low pay and poor conditions is not exploiting me. It is doing me a favor. Without the crappy job, I would starve to death. The world does not owe me anything. I might trade my time for a little bit of money but I will be looking for ways of being a better person (creating higher valued goods and services).

    Governments can control what corporations do because corporations are creations of government. Restricting their use of children seems reasonable, to me. The physical workers of America are in competition with physical workers in China and the third world. This is done so because of corporatism. If there were import duties put on products created in other countries, this would stop.

  • Petronius

    I find your system of values perverse, if not bizarre.

    The idea that money is some kind of measure of morality is just wrong. Money is a medium of exchange, pure and simple. That some people have more money than others is no measure of their inherent righteousness. Am I not stating the obvious?

    No, simply selling one's labour is not a capitalistic act; for that, it must be sold to a capitalist. You are continually assuming that the worker is some kind of independent operator, i.e. like a pumber, electrician etc. This is not usually the case.

    Look, if you think your boss is doing you a favour by allowing you to work in his sweatshop you're seriously deluded. Be a chump if you like but don't expect it of others.

    [N.B. Employers hire workers not out of the goodness of their hearts but to turn a profit from their labour.]

    And why can't children work in sweatshops? According to you they would be producing goods and services, earning money and thus showing how righteous they are. What's more, the sweatshop owners would be even more righteous what with all the money that they would be making. It would be a win win situation, no?

    Actually, I can't see your point about corporatism. What kind of corporatism are you referring to and how could the government be responsible for it? And what's it got to do with China? Aren't chinese workers allowed to do good deeds too?

    Also, I don't consider government performing services on my behalf to be selfish and irresponsible on my part. I live in a representative democracy and that is how things are done here. Government is my servant. You should try it.

  • brimp

    You have made some very good points. Capitalism and socialism are moral systems. You have a different set of morals than I have. Mine is based on the civilization principle of none aggression and yours is based on force. If you wish to live like this I may point out the long term consequences of your actions but I would not try to use force to stop you. You, on the other hand, advocate that anyone who disagrees with you to be put to death of put in a cage where they can be anally raped. I am not surprised that you would see my values as perverse and bizarre.

    If you provide goods and services that people want more than their money then you have made these people happy. You have done a good deed for them. If I sit on my butt and do nothing, I would have done good deeds to nobody. In this case, would it be unfair that you get to be transported in the back of a big limousine and I in the back of a big bus?

    Another point that you make is that I see each individual as an independent operator, capable of independent thought and maximizing his/her pleasure, while you see people as slaves that are incapable of independent thought or actions. We can agree to disagree on this point.

    I might consider the person who hires me to be doing me a favor but he/she is not. They are only looking after their own self interest. They want to make products/services that people want more than their money. To do this they need to buy materials and labor and organize these resources. They want to get the most good deed tokens for the created products and pay as little as possible for the material and labor. Since there are many companies making products/services, the market determines the price that can be charged. The same is true for the labor. If my job only pays me $2/hour and I can find no jobs that will pay me more than this then this is the value of my time. As an independent operator, I can look for other ways to sell my time and obtain the skills to be able to do so. The world does not owe me anything. If I do not help other people live, then I will have a shortened and difficult life.

    If I, as an individual, want to hire children to work for me, and their parents agree, then I can do so. And in this case, it would be a win-win situation. If I create a corporation that wants to do this, then governments, who gave the corporations it privileges, can forbid this.

    I suggest reading up or corporatism. The rage you have against capitalism will not get you anywhere. You will get more traction if you raise your concerns against the entities that are causing the problems. You may win me, and others, over if you did this.

    As an animal, everything that you do is selfish. The governments that you are talking about are corporations. You have contracted with these corporations and see nothing wrong with receiving the benefits of the contracts. When governments act like corporations, they limit competition. Therefore, you will pay more for services than if there were more entities competing over price for these services. When you are compelled to buy a service from the corporate government, it is you master.

  • Petronius

    Hold on a moment! It was not I who said that capitalism was a moral system. Capitalism is an economic system. Why attribute morality to it? I didn't.

    And where do you get this idea that I want to kill people who disagree with me or put them in a cage to be anally raped? I said no such thing! Your allegation is a complete fabrication.

    And neither have I been raging against capitalism. Rather I have been arguing for capitalism but with proper restraints imposed, restraints as decided by a democratically elected government. What could be wrong with that?

    Surely the economic mess that the USA is now in should give you pause for thought. Here in Australia things are okay. Our economy never went into recession, and none of our financial institutions failed. Unemployment rose for a while but is now falling again. Things here are getting back to normal. But I don't want to bragg, just point out how things could be so different for your country if prudent financial controls were in place.

    But first you need to get rid of these phantasies that you have:

    1) Money is a medium of exchange not a measure of goodness done. Banks can create money with the stroke of a pen.

    2) You don't have to be a saint to ride in an limousine, pimps do too! Capitalists are similar to pimps as they both live off the labour of other people.

    3) The capitalist market should not be accepted as a given. If your labour is worth only $2/hr then something is wrong. Capitalism is, I believe, an inherently irrational system so distortions can and do occur in the market. Hence the need for government intervention.

    Finally, you still have not explained what you mean by corporatism. Is your objection to corporations like GM, or the corporations of a fascist state which are something entirely different? It is difficult to read up on something when I don't know where to start.

  • brimp

    I quote “I find your system of values perverse, if not bizarre” This means that you are asserting that capitalism is a system of values. A system of values is a moral system. An economic system is a moral system. The capitalist system is based on different morals than the socialist system. If you wish to voluntarily join people that have the central committee decide what person gets to use what resources, then I would not try to stop you. On the other hand, if you think that I, or your neighbors, who wants to be “independent operators” are forced to go along because the majority has voted this way then you are evil. The capitalist system does not believe in the initiation of force. The socialistic system does. If your neighbor said he does not want to pay taxes, or wants to self medicate (without the permission of a government approved doctor and/or using medicines that were not approved by government), or does not want to send his kids to government indoctrination centers (public schools), or a dozen other decisions made by the democracy, what should the penalty be? Would you advocate pointing a gun to their head and order them to give the state money (otherwise know as paying a fine)? If they said that they will not pay the fine what do you advocate? Killing them? Putting them in prison (where they can be anally raped)?

    I repeat my suggestion that you educate yourself on corporatism. Wikipedia is a good place to start. America is in a mess now because corporatists have seized the government. We are no longer under the Constitution. The corporation that most of the trouble flows is the Federal Reserve, which is a private corporation like Federal Express. If you trust government, or one of the corporations that control it like the Department of Treasury (which is not part of constitutional government) for your education you will not comprehend how the system works. If you do so, you will find that: Money is a measure of goodness. Good people do not initiate force (which makes prostitutes and their managers better people than government workers). The capitalist system will pay people more than the socialist system does. And finally that corporatism and socialism are similar in that the decisions are centralized.

    Here is a link that explains the problems with the American system of government: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/127955… Your posts convey that you are not stupid. At one time, most of the people who read this website were in a similar state that you are in now. It is difficult to overcome the programming that governments have done to us. Everything the government says is propaganda. The link focuses on the American political and legal systems. In Australia it may be somewhat different. The Australian legal system, like the American, is based on British Common Law. I know that the legal systems are similar: the legislature passes bills and resolutions that eventually get passed into laws before the regulations are written that bind the citizens. In the long run, America is in better position than Australia is. For the next few years, I would not immigrate to America.

  • Petronius

    Well, it certainly was not my intention to assert that capitalism is a system of values. To me, it is just an economic system but it could give rise to a system of values. To wit, greed, selfishness, exploitation.

    I never said anything about a central committee. That was you. I'm talking about living in a democratic country – when the majority makes a decision then its will must be obeyed, otherwise you could end up in prison. Don't you agree?

    You have a peculiar understanding of corporatism. To you, corporations are government departments.

    Government departments are organs of government and are there to carry out government policy. There is nothing evil about it. Do you see what I mean by bizarre values? You say yourself that you rate pimps higher than government workers. That's bizarre!

    I read a bit of that article. It doesn't seem to apply to us in Australia. Here we have only got one type of citizenship. And people are not against government.

    To tell you the truth, we are not that concerned about freedom in Australia. We're much more concerned about equality and fraternity.

    You in the US however seem to be obsessed with freedom, but can you have freedom without responsibility?

    I'd be careful if I were you. You seem to be going down the Timothy McVey route, and look what happened to him.

  • brimp

    You are correct in thinking that capitalism is based on selfishness, and potentially greed. Socialism is based on exploitation of the capitalists (that is the independent operators looking after their own self interest). Every act that you, a socialist, do is also based on selfishness. If you did not think that democracy would benefit you, would you be advocating it? A Buddhist trying to reach nirvana is maximizing what he perceives to be pleasure.

    A democracy is either direct, like ancient Greek city states, or via representation. Direct democracy is even worse than representative democracy. One of the reasons that the Greeks faded as a force was direct democracy. The representatives and executive agents become your central committee. They exploit free people. Threatening us with death or anal rape in a cage, also called prison, for disobeying their dictates. As long as I am not infringing the rights of others, I am free to do anything that I want.

    When the government acts like a corporation this is called corporatism. When the government sees me as a resource then they see themselves as my master instead of my servant. In America, since the 14th Amendment, government acts as both a constitutional body and a corporation. The vast majority of the laws passed by congress are private law that applies to their corporate resources. You think this is normal. In America, it is not.

    In America, you can be put in prison for: self medicating (taking drugs like cocaine and pot), not paying taxes that you do not constitutionally owe, talking back to a public servant, selling organic eggs, peacefully protesting, and thousands of other things that do not violate anyone’s rights. If having a problem with this is bizarre then I’m bizarre. A prostitute sells her body. Government workers sell the body politic which makes them political whores. The body politic includes my body which makes them pimps. Some prostitutes wish to sell their bodies and seek pimps to be their manager. I do not want to sell my body therefore, these pimps are exploiting me. If not wanting to be pimped is bizarre then I stand accused.

    My responsibility is to not infringe upon the rights of others. If need be, I also have the duty to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign or domestic. That is it. Everything else is done voluntarily.

    The story of McVeigh has not been completed. It seems that he was involved with some people that did some horrible things. He used force against innocent children. He called them collateral damage. I would not defend him because of this. It looks like he was the patsy who took the blame for the Oklahoma City bombing. If you look at the facts surrounding the bombing, you will see that the official story has so many holes in it that it could not possibly be true. To associate McVeigh with me is bizarre. The only thing that is forbidden by capitalism is the initiation of force. I sense that the tensions are rising in America and this will show itself in other extreme events. The next few years look difficult.

  • Petronius

    I am afraid that your ideas are very hard to understand outside of an American context.

    The more I learn about your philosophy the more I dislike it. It is based on selfishness and greed. In short, it is an anti-Christian philosophy, straight out of hell. Only the truly selfish believe everybody is just like them.

    Also, you don't seem to understand what capitalism really is. The independent operator only makes up a minority of the economy. Please refer to my other postings for a definition, but really you should do your own study of the subject.

    And socialism does not exploit capitalists. It does away with them entirely.

    Here's some advice: stop being so fixated on YOURself and YOUR rights. Try to think about other people and their troubles. Do a good deed for someone and don't charge them money. Now, that would be different, wouldn't it?

  • brimp

    I don’t think you have comprehended my point. Your system of values is based on selfishness and greed. Capitalists look after their own self interest but, the only way that they can do this it to look after other people’s interest. By doing good deeds for others, the capitalists get the most number of good deed tokens. Capitalists do not steal. Socialists do.

    Your comments that socialists does away with capitalists entirely prove the point. You advocate killing peaceful people who try to help others. This is dangerous language. If it is OK to advocate killing capitalists, then it is OK for them to think of killing you. If you think that the capitalists have too much power, then don’t you think that they may use their money to kill you?

  • Petronius

    I will respond at the end as this is getting rather narrow here.

  • Petronius

    Hello brimp. Thanks for getting back to me.

    You certainly have put me in an invidious position. All that I wanted to do is argue in favour of a guided capitalism but instead I find myself defending Marxian socialism.

    First of all let me say that I do not want to kill any capitalists. It was the bolsheviks who went down that path. My point was that once socialism is introduced capitalists are divested of their property (the means of production) and therefore as a class they disappear since then they are no different from anybody else.

    No, I do understand your position but I find it to be naive and wrong. Your idea of capitalism is not capitalism at all. It is just barter, but with money. Where does the idea of capital fit in? It doesn't, does it? Instead you talk about independent operators and good deed tokens. Stop reading Mother Goose and read a good economics text book instead! May I suggest “Economics: Principles, Problems and Policies” by McConnell and Brue.

    Well, you may be right that capitalism is based on selfishness but I am not about to concede that socialism is. Socialism is the percieved antidote, rightly or wrongly, to the defects and injustices of capitalism. One should not confuse medicine with poison.

    You say that capitalism doesn't involve theft but to paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies, you would say that, would you? But if you read Marx's Das Kapital, volume 1, you will find that the capitalist does not pay the worker the full value of his labour. This results in the capitalist accruing surplus value for which he has not paid. This could be characterised as theft, and socialism's aim is to put an end to it through the socialization of the means of production.

  • brimp

    The only way you are going to divest me of my property is to kill me. If you suggest that is your goal then I have the right to defend myself. I can probably afford better weapons and more ruthless mercenaries than you. I will win that fight. If you declare war, you will get it. If you want to voluntarily join a commune then I can say good luck.

    As for economics, Human Action by Ludwig Von Mises is the book you should be reading. Quoting Marx is interesting. Every system that is based on his teachings has killed millions of their own citizens.

    Every decision that YOU make is done so to maximize YOUR pleasure or minimize YOUR pain. Advocating force to control resources that no one, voluntarily, gave you is un-civilized. The 'excesses' of 'capitalism' are actually the standard operating procedures of corporatism. If you focused your arguments, you may get people to listen to you. If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

  • Petronius

    You certainly sound strident, brimp. Do you realize that you have inadvertently valued your life to that of your assets? But don't worry, I wouldn't divest you of any of your assets in anything but a legal way, that is, even if I had a mind to.

    Meanwhile I have checked out von Mises. Very interesting. Perhaps I will read his book one day, although it does look rather abstract. Tell me, have you read it? Is there anything in it about money being good-deed tokens? I somehow think not.

    Yesterday, I came across someone who might interest you. Henry George. Have you heard of him? There's a wiki-article on him and various groups that espouse his ideas. Here's a link to an Australian group, which in turn has many other interesting links:

    http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/index.html

    Hopefully you will find their ideas to your taste.

    By the way, brimp, are you a libertarian?

  • http://argumentiveessaystopics.com/ argumentative essay

    With growing economical crisis in the world, more and more fascists will appear.

  • Lindsey Stewart

    they already have and the John Birch society has convinced the right that they aren’t fascists
    .