Whose Conspiracy? – by David Horowitz

David Horowitz was one of the founders of the New Left in the 1960s and an editor of its largest magazine, Ramparts. He is the author, with Peter Collier, of three best selling dynastic biographies: The Rockefellers: An American Dynasty (1976); The Kennedys: An American Dream (1984); and The Fords: An American Epic (1987). Looking back in anger at their days in the New Left, he and Collier wrote Destructive Generation (1989), a chronicle of their second thoughts about the 60s that has been compared to Whittaker Chambers’ Witness and other classic works documenting a break from totalitarianism. Horowitz examined this subject more closely in Radical Son (1996), a memoir tracing his odyssey from “red-diaper baby” to conservative activist that George Gilder described as “the first great autobiography of his generation.” His latest book is Take No Prisoners: The Battle Plan for Defeating the Left (Regnery Publishing).

Twitter: @horowitz39
Facebook: David Horowitz


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Question: What’s the difference between the Clintons’ “vast right wing conspiracy” and Joe McCarthy’s “conspiracy so immense”?  Actually, and despite a lot of liberal obfuscation on the subject, the conspiracy McCarthy was referring to was real. The Communist Party was a conspiratorial organization by any definition of the term and was run (and financed) by Moscow, America’s mortal enemy at the time. There is no disputing these facts.

Hillary’s conspiracy on the other hand (and Bill’s this weekend) are the Clintons’ inventions. Or rather invention, since Bill’s remarks today are about the alleged conspiracy to which Hillary referred. That conspiracy was supposed to have fraudulently concocted Bill’s liason with Monica — the phrase was in fact a claim that Bill’s adulteries with which Hillary was entirely familiar were made up out of whole cloth by “the vast right wing conspiracy” in order to discredit her husband and defeat his progressive agendas.

Hillary was lying both about the affair and about  right-wingers making it up. So Bill’s new lie — also a claim that the conspirators are out to thwart Obama’s progressive agendas — is just a doubling down to deflect attention from the disaster that Obama’s presidency is rapidly becoming. Funny that the witch-hunt which the Clinton are attempting to incite is unnoticed by the same liberals — uh progressives — who have pretended all these years that the communist conspiracy never existed. (And just in case there are any trolls from the Village Voicelurking — this doesn’t mean I think McCarthy did no wrong.)

  • Proxywar

    Vast-right-wing-conspiracy, LMAO!

    Try vast-progressive-wing-conspiracy.

    From left wing education in public schools to five MSM left wing programs to Obamacare to climate change to lies about the Iraq war to lies about 9/11.

    Sorry but, anyone who buys into Clinton's claim is one dumb son of a bitch.
    Even if the Conservatives wanted to conspire they wouldn't be able to because they don't have that kind of collective power any more due to the vast-progressive-wing-conspiracy. Simple as that. All the special interests this time around has made back door deals with Obama, they're all in support of obamacare.

  • The_Inquisitor

    “… this doesn’t mean I think McCarthy did no wrong.”

    Just curious. What wrong did he do besides getting smeared by communists and their fellow travelers? Please be specific.

    P.S. Have you read “Blacklisted by History” by M. Stanton Evans?

  • therealend

    With a 60 vote majority in the Senate and a substantial majority in the House, what's the big problem? A right wing conspiracy can outwit all of that and paralyze Govt? They are just hopeless!

  • bubba4

    It’s about you and other GOP waterboys who channel “stories” upward, link to each other, get it on Fox and propel it into the mainstream. There was a conspiracy to get Clinton out of office….just like there is one to get Obama out of office. It’s not a conspiracy to chart a more appealing course for America and thus woo voters, but instead it’s about lies, fear, and the lust for power. It is loose enough that “conspiracy” is a bit overstating it…but that is why Clinton’s saying this on-the-fly in an interview is remembered.

    I’m not sure I remember the Clinton hearings or people being questioned about their connection to this “right wing conspiracy”…probably because it was nothing at all like McCarthism. How is Clinton trying to “incite a witch-hunt”? That makes no sense…no one is coming after you.

    Here you are…doing what you do….in this case, making a stupid comparision and posting unflattering pictures of the Secretary of State. You are one of the main organs of the right wing babble machine with your “Discover the Network” bizarro world, Front Page Magazine, and new found Beck love. Your site may be small time, but it’s the overall network, links, and providing outlets for people like Dick Morris and Ben Johnson (and the whole cast of characters) that’s really the important part isn’t it David?

  • brenanc

    Hey Bubba! You know what the big difference was between Bill Clinton and Dick Nixon?

    Nixon had the decency to resign–and the Republican Party had the decency to force him to.

    Unless of course, Lewinsky was a Republican operative with a thong amongst the clamoring throng of Clinton supporters. Her oral fixation put Clinton exactly where she (and the Republicans?) wanted him.

    Who knew the Republicans were so devious? Apparently, they'll stoop to anything and stop at nothing?

    I wonder what Obama's weakness is, and how the Republicans will exploit it?

  • bubba4

    “Hey Bubba! You know what the big difference was between Bill Clinton and Dick Nixon?”

    Bill Clinton is still alive?

    “Nixon had the decency to resign–and the Republican Party had the decency to force him to.”

    Yeah but last time I checked, getting a blowjob wasn't illegal. The blowjob didn't reveal hidden corruption…it was the only thing they could get him on.

    “I wonder what Obama's weakness is, and how the Republicans will exploit it?”

    Not to worry. FPM and other GOP surrogates will be happy to pull something out of their asses. What do you think all this ACORN business is ultimately about?

  • warpmine

    Yeah but last time I checked, getting a blowjob wasn't illegal. The blowjob didn't reveal hidden corruption…it was the only thing they could get him on.

    You're right about the hummer, however, Clitton lied to a grand jury and that Buuba is a crime. Of course in your woirld it's all about BillyJeff having sex. The fact that he lied in effort to save his skin doesn't enter into it in your feeble mind. He's was the President, Governor of Arkansas prior to that and abused his position. There must have been twelve or so women that he harrassed sexually during his tenure.

    I once thought as you do now, but have been awakened to the absolute assault from Clinton and from his position he committed. He was not fit to hold the office of dog catcher let alone POTUS.

  • bubba4

    He's out of office…let it go.

  • USMCSniper

    There is a vast left wing conspiracy consisting of 98% of the mainstram media, CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, and MSNBC, 90% of all academic faculty members, the public education system, ACORN, NAACP, ACLU etc,… UN BBC CBC etc… and the Hollywood propaganda crowd. Tell me just who is the vast right wing media? Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Oreilly, Hannity… not really very vast!!

  • warpmine

    OUt of office as President but the rapist still grabs an audience to preach to so he's refuses to just go away. As long as this pos continues to get rich because he was once president than he deserves my ire.

  • bubba4

    Politics is one dimension of life Sniper. Many things is this world are neither left or right and have nothing to do with your judgements about either.

    If anyone should be familiar with the toxic neoreality “right” it should be you.

  • bubba4

    I don't think it bothers Clinton anymore…he has moved on with his life.

    But it clearly still bothers you….which is the point…YOU let it go. It was 99% bullshit from Clinton's political enemies anyway…which is the very subject of this thread…what force generates lies and intellectually dishonest arguments and propels them upwards? Well…FPM is one of the cogs in that machinery. It's not so much “vast” as it is “loud” and shameless.

    You can hate Clinton if you want to…but where did all that hate come from? He's a rapist…he's a murderer…he's a this, he's a that. It's looney. It really is…and it is compounding the stupidity when Horowitz suggests that Clinton is trying to spark a “witch hunt”…

    WHHHHHAAAAAAAAA

  • warpmine

    But it clearly still bothers you….which is the point…YOU let it go. It was 99% bullshit from Clinton's political enemies anyway…which is the very subject of this thread…what force generates lies and intellectually dishonest arguments and propels them upwards? Well…FPM is one of the cogs in that machinery. It's not so much “vast” as it is “loud” and shameless.

    The poblem is FPM was launched way back in July of 2000 so that bullshit of this being one of the cogs of the anti Clinton machine is just that BS.
    Clinton made many enemies many of them by his own choosing. His choices in life were his own and he had to embrace them.

    Clinton never murdered anyone but his sorrogates have done some pretty awful things. Plenty of associates dissapeared, suddenly killed themselves or had bullets pumped into them from airplane disasters.

    Hating Clinton could be a full-time job but I have other things to tackle in my life. His policies sucked along with all the cabinet secretaries. The prick cared about nothing other than setting himself up to make money after he was through. You remember that law called the Patriot Act that you and your DemonRat friends hate so much well it wouldn't have been necessary had Clinton given a shit about the security of the Nation and killed Bin Laden when he had the chance.

    I'm going to surpise you with this admission…I voted for Clinton twice then opened My eyes. I voted for Bush twice and have regretting those votes as well. The truth is both parties in the last 100 years have been suckinig the life out of America one just faster than the other.I suggest you do as I have and read the constitution with all the letters from the creators of it and then examine the who's who in politics.
    One last comment: I was as liberal as I could get until my first son was born and only then I realized that life was created by a creator God that made everything we see feel and hear in this universe.
    And that coming from an agnostic un until I was 28 yo.

  • scythe

    A conspiracy by definition means people colluding to commit a crime. Words have precise meanings. The left has taken them and bent them to push an agenda. But the word means what it means. So it begs the question: WHAT ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES HAS THE RIGHT BEEN UP TO? The word has been flung around so much but if the former Stud Muffin in the White House who likes to flaunt his vaunted intelligence uses a word severed from its true meaning you have to wonder how dumb is he or does he truly think dissent is illegal? In that case he can take his place alongside most of his buddies on the left who can't stand anyone thinking and acting on his own counsel. To object to crypto fascism is to conspire??? In the playbook of the despotic left the answer is yes.

  • WFB2

    “You can hate Clinton if you want to…but where did all that hate come from?”
    —–
    Where did the non-stop 8-year hate-fest of “lying Bushitler” come from? Why did Murtha, Kerry and Durbin liken our trroops in Irag to Nazi stormtroopers? Why did Reid tell the world we lost the war in Iraq encouraging jihad's to press on and kill more of our troops?
    ——-
    “He's a rapist…he's a murderer…he's a this, he's a that. It's looney.”
    ——–
    No, the Clinton's are loony: http://www.realchange.org/clinton.htm

    Don't forget to ask the Wizard for a brain when you get to Oz

  • USMCSniper

    Ahhhh….errr… as John Cleash once said, “I fart in your general direction!”

  • USMCSniper

    Another left wing conspirator document forger bites the dust, NEW YORK (Reuters) – A New York state appeals court on Tuesday dismissed former TV newsman Dan Rather's lawsuit against CBS Corp in which Rather claimed he was made a scapegoat in a scandal over a 2004 report on then-President George W. Bush's military record.

    The ruling on Tuesday by a panel of judges of the New York State Supreme Court Appellate Division said Rather's $70 million complaint should be dismissed in its entirety and that a lower court erred in denying CBS's motion to throw out the lawsuit.

  • bubba4

    But it clearly still bothers you….which is the point…YOU let it go. It was 99% bullshit from Clinton's political enemies anyway…which is the very subject of this thread…what force generates lies and intellectually dishonest arguments and propels them upwards? Well…FPM is one of the cogs in that machinery. It's not so much “vast” as it is “loud” and shameless.

    “The poblem is FPM was launched way back in July of 2000 so that bullshit of this being one of the cogs of the anti Clinton machine is just that BS.”

    Well…your kind of reading that in so I can be wrong about something. Some of my ellipses should be periods I guess..
    “what force generates lies and intellectually dishonest arguments and propels them upwards” – this is no longer talking exclusively about Clinton.

    “Clinton never murdered anyone but his sorrogates have done some pretty awful things. Plenty of associates dissapeared, suddenly killed themselves or had bullets pumped into them from airplane disasters.”

    Sure and you can believe whatever you want which you apparently do with gusto. I'm glad you found Jesus or God or whatever as long as it makes you happy….see ya.

  • bubba4

    I think the pre-emptive war, private military, patriot act, renditions, secret prisons and other things made people uneasy about Bush and his outlook.

    Before 9/11 it was mercury levels in water and such that people didn't like, but everyone got behind Bush after 9/11. It was what he did with it that caused our current clusterfuck(s). But things Bush did werent assertions about what he would do based on a secret agenda…they were things he actually did.

  • GJ Tryon

    Obama's weakness is weakness.

  • thmiuatga

    Bubba4:

    You either forget or ignore that Clinton was impeached for lying under oath to a Federal Judge and suborning perjury in a Sexual harassment lawsuit in which he denied a Citizen her due process rights in a court of law. He lied to a Federal judge and submitted a sworn statement which he knew was false and testified that it was true when it was not. You excused his disrespect for the laws then and now, and you stand silent while Obama violates treaties with our allies and tramples on our Constitutional rights in the name of “hope n' Change” and changing the view of America to the rest of the world.

    George W. Bush was accused of far more heinous acts and constitutional violations in his eight years in office than any of today's tyrants would be acknowledged for their collective crimes against innocent people by their power hungry peers and followers.

    When your personal standard of living is reduced to that of a third world denizen or resident of the UK, and your personal freedoms are severely restricted it is then that you will miss the freedom you didn't bother to speak up for or defend.

    At that point in time, it will be too late.

  • bubba4

    You either forget or ignore that Clinton was impeached for lying under oath to a Federal Judge and suborning perjury in a Sexual harassment lawsuit in which he denied a Citizen her due process rights in a court of law. He lied to a Federal judge and submitted a sworn statement which he knew was false and testified that it was true when it was not.

    Who are you….Ken Star? Jesus Christ man…I was telling this other guy to let go and along comes you.

    “You excused his disrespect for the laws..”

    Look…you can write it out in legal-speak if you want, but he lied about getting a blowjob. But this guys is saying he's a rapist, he's a murderer…at least you are sticking to the actual real crime…even if you are trying to make it sound as big and important as possible.

    “then and now, and you stand silent while Obama violates treaties with our allies and tramples on our Constitutional rights in the name of “hope n' Change” and changing the view of America to the rest of the world.”

    LOL…What treaties has he violated?

    What rights has he trampled on?

    “George W. Bush was accused of far more heinous acts and constitutional violations in his eight years in office than any of today's tyrants would be acknowledged for their collective crimes against innocent people by their power hungry peers and followers.”

    Yes but Bush broke treaties…specifically our proliferation treaties with Russia and the Geneva conventions…in both these instances, the Bush Administration tried to marginalize the agreements and basically say they were “out of date” or simply didn't apply in this case. So that made a lot of people angry. Then there was the rash of ironically named and terrible ineffective programs like the “clear skys” initiative and “leave no child behind”…after all our kids be learning. Then of course there was the revival of TIA (total information awareness) in the form of “wiretapping” rules to circumvent FISA law…and then of course there was the pre-emptive war, the tax cuts for the rich…etc…etc. Oh yeah and he got in office via a vote of the Supreme Court while losing the popular vote…so he even entered office under a cloud.

    With Obama, you just start at volume 11 for no good reason…and the “disagreements” with Obama are always peppered with lies and misinformation and GOP talking points.

    “When your personal standard of living is reduced to that of a third world denizen or resident of the UK, and your personal freedoms are severely restricted it is then that you will miss the freedom you didn't bother to speak up for or defend.”

    Oh give me a break. You chicken littles are determined to be miserable until Obama is out of office. Well…you will have a long wait…a nice long time to keep predicting the coming doom which is always right around the corner.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Carlos-David-Aguilar/1668715604 Carlos David Aguilar

    If you want to talk conspiracies look no futher than George Soros and all the organizations he has started and funds that are tied to the democratic party. Soros himself said his whole mission in the 2004 election was to take down George W. Bush. More and more the dems have gone off the rails. Now the new talking point is that conservatives are trying to get the President assassinated. No less than ten commentators, pundints, and elected officials have promoted this craziness. Wake up libs, political analysts have said you could lose around 30 to 40 seats in the house, I predict a lot more if you keep up the madness.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Carlos-David-Aguilar/1668715604 Carlos David Aguilar

    Redition was started by President Clinton and continues under Obama. Obama has continued several of Bush policies and has made no changes or suggested any changes be made in the Patriot Act. As for private contractors I assume you are talking about Blackwater or KBR the subsidiary of Haliburton. President Clinton used Halibuton more than Bush ever did even giving a contract to Haliburton when another company had under bid them. Byron York has two really good pieces on the Haliburton relationship with the Bush administration in National Review Online. Under Blackwater no diplomat under their secuity has been killed, these are special ops professionals in an unbelievably chaotic envoirment. As for pre-emptive war, the Clinton administration passed the Iraqi liberation act which called for regime change. In 1998 Clinton lobbed 400 rockets into Iraq I urge you to read his address to the nation explaining the attack, it was no different than what GWB was saying in the lead up to war in 2002. I also remember hearing a speech by then canidate Obama that we need a civilian security force that is just as big and just as well funded as our military, til this day he has never been asked nor explained what he meant by that. That should make people a little uneasy.

  • thmiuatga

    bubba4

    I don't have to use legalese to make my points. Perjury is still perjury and there are people that were criminally charged and convicted of that crime.
    Just Google the name Barbara Battalino.

    As for the treaty that President Obama has violated it is the defense treaty signed with our Allies Poland and Czechoslovakia. It was discussed in an article written by Stephen Brown on this very website. The President said that he was going to cut defense spending, weapons procurements and reduce nuclear weapons stockpiles. OF course that doesn't involved the reductions of Nuclear weapons or program operations by North Korea, China, Russia or Iran. I'm not going to even bother to ask who would be a bigger threat to us and would be much more inclined to use Nuclear weapons against any other country including us.

    http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/2009/01

    http://citizen-pamphleteer.blogspot.com/2009/02

    http://www.theminorityreportblog.com/blog_entry

    http://stephanieavery.wordpress.com/2009/09/23/

    http://boards.history.com/topic/Current-Events/

    And there you go again with FISA and the mantra about Bush violating civil rights of citizens and trampling on the Constitution. You dismiss
    Program “Echelon” and ignore the fact that Bill Clinton used that program to monitor ALL telecommunications traffic and sources in this country. As for FISA and it's origins you might want ot go back to Carter cause it was he who determined that foreign diplomats in this country were deserving ov civil rights protections and should not have their communications monitored, their persons searched or be placed under surveillance.

    I am neither a chicken little nor a chicken hawk. I am a black American who happens to be a Conservative, a Veteran, and I can tell when someone is trying to sell me a wolfticket. Liberals claimed they were miserable under Bush; someone you still claim and accuse of stealing the 2000 election.
    It's pretty stupid to still make that claim on a man that had no power to commit that act in a State where the majority of the counties and districts involved in the case were and still are Democrat controlled. You might as well give it up cause the competency of that argument failed long ago.

  • bubba4

    bubba4 I don't have to use legalese to make my points. Perjury is still perjury

    Yes it is…and you got that son of a bitch. He lied about a blowjob and you got him….LET IT GO .

    “and there are people that were criminally charged and convicted of that crime. Just Google the name Barbara Battalino. As for the treaty that President Obama has violated it is the defense treaty signed with our Allies Poland and Czechoslovakia.”

    What treaty would that be? The stopping of the “missile shield” was not a violation of anything. You can FEEL it's a violation of something, but that doesn't make the grade.

    “It was discussed in an article written by Stephen Brown on this very website. The President said that he was going to cut defense spending, weapons procurements and reduce nuclear weapons stockpiles.”

    How much of the hundreds of billions of dollars a year did he cut?

    “OF course that doesn't involved the reductions of Nuclear weapons or program operations by North Korea, China, Russia or Iran.”

    Yeah…crazy thing…the President can't dictate what other countries do. If we can only destroy the world 5-6 times over instead of 9 are you going to lose sleep?

    And there you go again with FISA and the mantra about Bush violating civil rights of citizens and trampling on the Constitution.

    Mantra? He did try to circumvent FISA law…we had lots of hearings about it and lots of statements from the administration. They told us that FISA was old and “outdated”. This isn't a Mantra dumbass…it's a fact. Why would you pretend it was otherwise.

    “You dismiss Program “Echelon” and ignore the fact that Bill Clinton used that program to monitor ALL telecommunications traffic and sources in this country.”

    What about Echelon…IT WAS LEGAL you moron. It was used to monitor our enemies. If the NSA wanted to monitor an American citizen they complied with FISA. Why are you trying to draw false comparisons. Stop defending Bush.

    “As for FISA and it's origins you might want ot go back to Carter cause it was he who determined that foreign diplomats in this country were deserving ov civil rights protections and should not have their communications monitored, their persons searched or be placed under surveillance.”

    What have you been reading? When you read these opinion articles…do you ever question anything? First off, yes Carter was the President in 1978…when CONGRESS passed FISA. Here's a bit about FISA because someone has been spinning yarns about Carter again.

    http://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/legal-di

    “Liberals claimed they were miserable under Bush; someone you still claim and accuse of stealing the 2000 election.”

    That's not what I said. Can you stick to what is actually said please…there is enough distortion going on here with you distorting what I wrote in the last post.

    “It's pretty stupid to still make that claim on a man that had no power to commit that act in a State where the majority of the counties and districts involved in the case were and still are Democrat controlled. You might as well give it up cause the competency of that argument failed long ago.”

    So now you are arguing against something I didn't say.

    All this came about because you were drawing a false comparison to Obama haters who are accusing him of everything under the sun while less than a year in office and people that protested Bush or even hated Bush and called him Hitler. Some of you may feel like because Bush was protested against…you should just get out there and protest Obama…well that's fine…but you have to make up a lot of crazy shit to have half the REAL things Bush did that pissed off the country and world. That's exactly what the Tea=Party protestors are doing. So I listed off a few examples of things that might have pissed people off.

  • thmiuatga

    bubba4:

    I don't have to make up anything and I am more than capable of standing on the facts.
    You however, are losing the argument so you result to personal insults.
    Actually you did say it. I am fully aware of suppositions and it was you that said:

    “and then of course there was the pre-emptive war, the tax cuts for the rich…etc…etc. Oh yeah and he got in office via a vote of the Supreme Court while losing the popular vote…so he even entered office under a cloud.”

    The Supreme Court didn't have anything to do with him being elected to the Presidency other than those 9 members of that court casting their own individual ballots as American Citizens. Echelon may have been legal, but there was no cause for the surveillance on every citizen of this country. The extent of surveillance by the Bush Administration was for terrorist groups and their contacts abroad and in this country.

    As for the initial bailout, there were Repulicans that voted against it and then-Senator Obama voted for it. As I recall, The Democrats had the majority in both
    houses anyway and would have used their numbers to overrride and enact it if Bush had vetoed it. He passed it because he was not the fiscal conservative
    that he claimed to be; a dark point nonetheless, but that seems to be brought up more than his warning and the warnings of others to regulate and reign in the
    actions of the home lending market practices under Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

    As for tax cuts, its the rich who provide jobs. The top wealthy 2% and corporations aside it is the small business owner that provides jobs and they are classified as being Rich when they are not. I've worked in Government, for small business owners and corporations. It is a proven fact that revenues in the treasury increase when taxes are
    lowered. Low taxes enables businesses to expand and improve their businesses, hire more people, provide benefits for their employees as well as higher pay.

    The Tea Party protestors are using facts to raise their grievances. Everything this president is doing to undermine this nation and it's sovreignty can be
    backed up with facts but people like you don't want facts. You're happy and overjoyed that a black man has been elected President of this country for the first time
    in history; qualifications be damned. It's about his ethnicity, his charismatic way of speaking and the way he can project a better, kindler,gentler America to the rest of the bereaved, terrorized, disparaged and victim filled impoverished world community.

    So belittle the protests of my fellow patriots all you want bubba. This country is under threat from outside and within.

  • bubba4

    bubba4:

    “I don't have to make up anything and I am more than capable of standing on the facts. You however, are losing the argument so you result to personal insults.”

    I was never making the case that Bush “stole” the election. It's the fact that you go off on weird tangents that we end up talking about so many items on the periphery. If I'm not mistaken, this started because I said that Clinton's comments about a “vast right-wing conspiracy” did not equal McCarthy. You posted and said I was overlooking the perjury. I didn't see how this was relevant but whatever…

    “Actually you did say it. I am fully aware of suppositions and it was you that said:

    “and then of course there was the pre-emptive war, the tax cuts for the rich…etc…etc. Oh yeah and he got in office via a vote of the Supreme Court while losing the popular vote…so he even entered office under a cloud.”

    The Supreme Court didn't have anything to do with him being elected to the Presidency other than those 9 members of that court casting their own individual ballots as American Citizens.”

    Well…he did enter office under a cloud. I'm not forwarding some strange theory…the Supreme Court stopped the recount and effectively handed the election to Bush. It was first time this happened ever. Since he lost the popular vote, there was that sentiment that it wasn't right.

    How can a conversation move forward at all if you are going to make strawmen out of historic fact. Sure there were some that went as far to say he “stole” the election…but that wasn't what I was saying. You just challenge side stuff that is well known…I'm REMINDING you of what the environment was then, not forwarding an argument.

    “Echelon may have been legal, but there was no cause for the surveillance on every citizen of this country.”

    Um…there wasn't. If they wanted to spy on an American citizen, they had to comply with FISA…that is what made it “legal”?

    “The extent of surveillance by the Bush Administration was for terrorist groups and their contacts abroad and in this country.”

    Yes…this is what they SAID. Meanwhile they did spy on Americans and circumvented FISA courts all together in some instances. Again…this is not an assertion, these are facts. Then you are talking about the bailout? I can't keep up.

    Bush gave a really big tax cut to the wealthy right when he got into office…he cut the tax on capital gains and a bunch of other taxes, especially the income tax…then they went after the estate tax. So..we had eight years of exactly what you are saying will work wonders. DID IT?

    “The Tea Party protestors are using facts to raise their grievances. Everything this president is doing to undermine this nation and it's sovreignty can be backed up with facts but people like you don't want facts.”

    Like what…give me an example. What has he done to undermine the nation? I bet it's a lot of poppycock bullshit that that FPM and FOX have pumped into you….but I would love to hear what you think are “facts” about his undermining America. Something unvague would be surprising.

    “You're happy and overjoyed that a black man has been elected President of this country for the first time in history; qualifications be damned. It's about his ethnicity, his charismatic way of speaking and the way he can project a better, kindler,gentler America to the rest of the bereaved, terrorized, disparaged and victim filled impoverished world community.”

    Uhhhh…wow. Thanks but no thanks…I don't want this particular point of view. Night Night.

  • thmiuatga

    Carlos:

    I've read “Shadow Party” and “Unholy Alliance” which are written by David Horowitz.
    I'm sure you recall that during the election, Soros was backing Hillary but then he
    announced publicly that he was supporting Obama. He and the Marxist left have bought
    and paid for the party lock, stock and barrel.

    You have the so-called leftist pundits and reporters with all their “objectivity” and
    “Inclusiveness” saying nasty things about conservatives, the Tea-party protesters,
    any member of Congress who openly and publicly opposes them and they are not held responsible for
    their words but yet they cry and howl about anybody saying something that is true.
    The people are mad as hell and they're not going to take it anymore. Gen McCrystal's request for
    more troops has been on the President's desk since Aug 29th if I'm not mistaken but Obama can't be
    bothered to listen and act on the advice by the commanding General who is there
    on the field of battle and knows what the situation is better than any of Obama's two-bit Czars
    or Marxist boot-licking advisers in his cabinet. Dereliction of duty? pretty damned close if you're asking.

    The left claimed that the election of the first Black President of the United States would bring this country
    together. This country is further divided and though that's not totally a bad thing, we have a segment of the population
    that wants more Government control over everything, we have another segment of this country that wants prosperity, freedom
    personal responsibility, and less Government intervention with Government reduced to its Constitutional prescribed limits.
    We have a segment that just doesn't care and probably isn't aware of whats going on and only pays attention to whoever
    says something popular at the time. Division is fine but we all have to be united on something.
    Those that govern are doing harm to this country to further their political and monetary aims. Those that
    defend it, do so for freedom and the preservation of our nation as all who preceded them have done.
    And those who despise it have done more harm in dividing it and have given our enemies legitimacy
    and a level of respect they do not deserve.

    It is said that Socialism is the equal distribution of misery, and those who want Socialism certainly want that
    system imposed on the rest of the people and not themselves. As Andrew Wilkow said; The left doesn't
    mind tyranny, as long as they are the tyrants.