Hollywood and Howard Zinn’s Marxist Education Project – by Michelle Malkin


The two most important questions for society, according to the Greek philosopher Plato, are these: What will we teach our children? And who will teach them? Left-wing celebrities have teamed up with one of America’s most radical historians to take control of the classroom in the name of “social justice.” Parents, beware: This Hollywood-backed Marxist education project may be coming to a school near you.

On Sunday, Dec. 13, the History Channel aired “The People Speak” — a documentary based on Marxist academic Howard Zinn’s capitalism-bashing, America-dissing, grievance-mongering history textbook, “A People’s History of the United States.” The film was co-produced and bankrolled by Zinn’s Boston neighbor and mentee Matt Damon. An all-star cast of Bush-bashing liberals, including Danny Glover, Josh Brolin, Bruce Springsteen, Marisa Tomei and Eddie Vedder, will appear. Zinn’s work is a self-proclaimed “biased account” of American history that rails against white oppressors, the free market and the military.

Zinn’s objective is not to impart knowledge, but to instigate “change” and nurture a political “counterforce” (an echo of fellow radical academic and Hugo Chavez admirer Bill Ayers’ proclamation of education as the “motor-force of revolution”). Teachers are not supposed to teach facts in the school of Zinn. “There is no such thing as pure fact,” Zinn asserts. Educators are not supposed to emphasize individual academic achievement. They are supposed to “empower” student collectivism by emphasizing “the role of working people, women, people of color and organized social movements.” School officials are not facilitators of intellectual inquiry, but leaders of “social struggle.”

Zinn and company have launched a nationwide education project in conjunction with the documentary. “A people’s history requires a people’s pedagogy to match,” Zinn preaches. The project is a collaboration between two “social justice” activist groups, Rethinking Schools and Teaching for Change.

Rethinking Schools recently boasted of killing a social studies textbook series in the Milwaukee school system because it “failed to teach social responsibility.” A Rethinking Schools guide on the September 11 jihadi attacks instructs teachers to “nurture student empathy” for our enemies and dissuade students from identifying as Americans.

“It’s our job to reach beyond this chauvinism.” And a Rethinking Schools guide to early childhood education written by Ann Pelo disparages “a too-heavy focus on academic skills” in favor of “social justice and ecological teaching” for preschoolers.

Teaching for Change’s objective, in Obama-esque fashion, is to train students not to achieve actual proficiency in core academic subjects, but to inspire them to “become active global citizens.” Today’s non-achieving aspirants are tomorrow’s Nobel Peace Prize winners, after all.

No part of the school curriculum is immune from the social justice makeover crew. Zinn’s partners at Rethinking Schools have even issued teaching guides to “Rethinking Mathematics: Teaching Social Justice by the Numbers” — which rejects the traditional white male patriarchal methods of teaching computation and statistics in favor of p.c.-ified number-crunching:

“‘Rethinking Mathematics’ is divided into four parts. The first part is devoted to a broad view of mathematics that includes historical and cultural implications. Part Two includes nine classroom narratives in which teachers describe lessons they have used that infuse social justice issues into their mathematics curriculum. Included here … an AP calculus lesson on income distribution. The third part contains three detailed classroom experiences/lessons. These include a physical depiction of the inequitable distribution of the world’s wealth, the results of a student investigation into how many U.S. presidents owned slaves, and a wonderful classroom game called ‘Transnational Capital Auction’ in which students take on the role of leaders of Third World countries bidding competitively for new factories from a multinational corporation. …

“Short lessons, provocative cartoons and snippets of statistics are scattered throughout ‘Rethinking Mathematics.’ A partial list of topics includes racial profiling, unemployment rate calculation, the war in Iraq, environmental racism, globalization, wealth distribution and poverty, wheelchair ramps, urban density, HIV/AIDS, deconstructing Barbie, junk food advertising to children and lotteries.” (from a review by James V. Rauff of Millikin University)

Our students will continue to come in dead last in international testing. But no worries. With Howard Zinn and Hollywood leftists in charge, empty-headed young global citizens will have heavier guilt, wider social consciences and more hatred for America than any other students in the world.

  • Proxywar

    I actually caught “the people speak” last night and could not finish watching it. It was that horrible. Watching these actors trying to act like American patriots was pathetic, espeically since I knew everything they were saying was complete bias propaganda. The program was meant for the historically challenged. If howard zinn
    advocates that there is no such thing as a fact then I say the Jefferson never had an affair with sally hemings. Words matter. We should make them live up to what they preach.

    As for howard zinn's book “A people's history of the untied states of America” unfortunately there are too many absences of footnotes to sources.

    Other problems with his book….

    - There was no “Spain” in 1492, there was Castilla and Aragon (with separate Queen and King respectively, although they were married).
    - The Court of the Crown of Castilla wasn't in Madrid until 1561 (it was in Toledo by that time).
    - It is not exact that Hernan Cortes turned Aztec against Aztec, but the tribes that were being slaughtered by the Aztecs.

    The problem with Zinn's view is his dismissal of historical context. He presents the United States as a criminal state and provides us with a list of its crimes.

    The question is, Are these crimes what is “distinctive” about the United States? Of course there are awful things this country has done, and Americans should certainly know about them, but for the most part the awful things we have done are not novel. How many societies have been hostile to “the other”? How many societies have kept the territory they have won in military engagements? How many societies have condoned slavery and sexual inequality? In how many societies has greed been a major human motivation?

    The short answer to these questions? “All of them.”

    Yes, there are some areas in which I think we do poorly in comparison to other societies in our respect for education and for our cultural heritage, in remembering to value the life of the mind and aesthetic appreciation, but Zinn doesn't have all that much to say about our actual weaknesses.

    What is different about the United States is the way we have defended, through a long and sometimes bloody series of struggles, liberty and universal equality under the law. Surely there have been many evil Americans, which (given human nature) is not a surprise, but on balance we have been an unprecedented force for good in the world.

    he myth that Native Americans were saintly innocents has been debunked very thoroughly by both historians and anthropologists. This of course does not excuse the behavior of Europeans, which was sometimes evil, but the idea that Europeans were *especially* vicious can be maintained only by ignoring the history of other peoples.

    On the other hand, European civilization has contributed greatly to the welfare of the world. Since the Industrial Revolution, global life expectancy has increased dramatically, as has global wealth and the quality of global health. You should also remember that slavery was a global phenomenon *throughout history* until Europeans (primarily by means of the British Navy) decided they had a moral duty to end it.

    The non-Western countries that have benefited the most have been the ones that have adopted free markets and representative democracy. (And much of the non-Western world *has* asked for democracy and *does* value it.) The non-Western countries that have lagged have generally been the ones that have adopted radical leftist ideologies. If all the nonsense about capitalist “exploitation” were true, then the “exploited” capitalist countries would be poor and the countries that adopted Zinn's favored model (anti-capitalist, “anti-imperialist”) would have prospered. This is decidedly “not” the case.

    However, I will give him credit as he says quite openly that he has no desire to write objectively. Here he is in his own words: “From the start of my teaching and writing, I had no illusions about “objectivity”, if that meant avoiding a point of view. I knew that a historian (or a journalist, or any one telling a story) was forced to choose, from an infinite number of facts, what to present, what to omit. And that decision inevitably would reflect, whether consciously or not, the interests of the historian.”

    Zinn aims to advance his ideology and his “interests,” not to give a balanced depiction of historical reality. In effect, Zinn is a liar, and a liar who defends ideas that have produced almost nothing outside of mass misery and mass murder.

    If your looking for good counter books to Zinn's nonsense this hoilday season I suggest reading: Paul Johnson's “A History of the American People” and Larry Schweikart's “A Patriot's History of the United States: From Columbus's Great Discovery to the War on Terror.” One other book I would suggest reading is
    “48 Liberal Lies About American History”.

    Perpare yourselves for the progressive propaganda now that Obama is president it will be coming at you ferociously. Even the history channel has sold out.

  • http://www.tarandfeathers.shugartmedia.com/ Tar_and_Feathers

    I tried to watch the show and lasted 15 minutes. Dreary recycled leftwing canards posing as history is not my idea of television entertainment. If I wanted to watch pious liberal blabber I can watch PBS.

  • jackbelias

    This is an act of war, the clear intention here is to plant the seeds of revolutionary hatred into a whole generation of youth. Such brainwashed youth will regard the generations before them as vermin who are pure evil and in need of punishment. This is the beginning of training for future revolutionary soldiers who will happily make the streets run red while thinking of themselves as white nights.

    This strategy has been used before. During the 1960s radicals once called upon children to see themselves as victims of agism. The suggestion was to kill their parents as an act of liberation. This is the same dogma on a much grander and tax payer funded scale.

    We as Americans must take action against the left. We cannot sit back and watch forever. We know who the revolutionary leadership is, we know they intend great harm upon us, and we know their tactics will only get bolder as time goes by. It is obvious that leftists represent a clear and present danger to the national security of the United States. Every American is beholden to defend this nation from all enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC.

    Just imagine hearing a crash in your home in the middle of the night. Upon investigation a black clad humanoid holding is a mechete is revealed standind in the kitchen. Do we see the machete butcher as a threat and dispatch him with our pistol? Perhaps we should do as we have been and wait to see what he intends to do to our family with the machete?

  • goosebumps

    The left has poisoned my own children. I gave birth to them, stayed up all night with them when they were sick, did without so that they could have, sent them off to college and they came home full of ideas abut what America has not done for the needy, has done to the various victim groups, has done in other countries where we have no business, etc. All of the education pointing out how evil and greedy America is with no teaching the ability to think about the nature of human beings or what the rest of the world has been doing in the same frame. It's a rote type of education conveniently leaving out details that don't suit the teachers.
    It was only then that I realized that we spent thousands of dollars sending our children to “reeducation camps to learn propaganda” and it has been going on since kindergarten. i guess I just assumed they would have the same type of education that I received. Now I spend hours trying to un-educate them. I have to teach them to question things and do research and get the facts as they are not the facts as they support a particular point of view. The schools force the students to take certain types of courses to make sure that they all get at least a minimum of PC bullshit.

  • shanecomeback

    Goosebumps is correct–walk into most social studies classes in middle school and you will NOT believe what the kids learn about their country–they learn to feel only shame. As though no other country has done anything wrong. Some teachers are vicious anti-American marxists.Others are lazy,and follow the lines of what they themselves were taught by their marxist professors. Check your kids reading lists–ask them what today's lecture was about. They get them young,and your only chance is to correct their 'learning” yourself,give your kids the ammo they need to refute teacher's marxist propaganda.

  • Walt

    I would say that even as a Marxist Historian, Howard Zinn is really below par. Marxist Historians, such as Herbert Aptheker and Phillip Foner at least tried to present standard information and analysis,. albeit with a slant. Of course, these were people who still valued academic standards, unlike Howard Zinn. Mr. Zinn simply tosses out a bottom tier Marxist tract, and calls it an academic achievement. I guess the History Channel can't go much further with its Nostradamus nonsense, so it needs filler.

  • aspacia

    Zinn is appalling! As a credentialed English/History teacher, I can vouch for this social change policy being forced young teachers' throats. Consequently, I avoid all pedagogy classes, and only took those required for credentialing.

    Remember, Dewey, the father of pedagogy was a socialist, borderline Marxist, who is responsible for the dumbing down of the U.S.A. The masses are easier to control when unable to critically think.

  • Proxywar

    Between Nostradamus, Monster Quest, and UFO Hunters on the history channel, is it any wounder why people think 9/11 was a inside job? Honestly, this stuff was meant for the mentally challenged who the government set free from the insane asylums back in the 70's – 80's who then procreated and now
    raise their mentally challenged off-spring on history channel programs such as “THE PEOPLE SPEAK”. These people don't speak for me. Is it just me or has hollywood been working overtime since Obama got elected to turn us into Socialist country? From 2001 to 2008 these people were ANTI-GOVERNMENT.
    What the hell happend? The only thing the conservatives ever really agreed with Bush on was the WAR. That's the only thing I ever agreed with him on anyway.

  • abrahamstubenhaus

    Thank you again Michelle Malkin for your undeniably brilliant and astute observations. How interesting and true it is that leftists with money, live in an ocean of denial.
    They would never dare say, “I feel guilty that I made so much money in return for doing so very little.” They would never say that, because the denial they surround themselves with, relentlessly rejects that the guilt even exists. So, instead, they say, “How terrible it is that that I was allowed to make money so easily, while others who work so hard, remain impoverished.” They then embrace a philosophy that is anti capitalism instead of thanking the essence of capitalism that never stops offering opportunities to all those impoverished. This is the essence of narcissism which is so self involved that it does not allow others to enter. Therefore, rather than help the poor see the tremendous opportunities they can use to raise their financial positions, they prefer instead to pity the poor, shower them with money, and keep them steeped in the same situation they have always been in; dependent on the kindness of others, which presents no reason to better themselves since they already receiving. This denial of narcissists causes the impoverished to remain encircled by the confining bars of the prison of ignorance. It also allows the narcissists to march in a parade of glory and to be showered with praises for their philanthropy.

  • Proxywar


    ^ Sorry but it had to be done.

    Matt Damon in Team America.

    I can't believe Harvard accepted this faggot.

  • bs61

    I for one, will be writing all these people to tell them, that I will never darken their door with my dirty capitalist money at any of the movies, ever again!

  • Wayne

    Overtly preaching Marxism today is more of a logical progression in the education of America and the Western countries to accept the tenets of socialism that have been introduced gradually over the course of the better part of the last century. Socialism demands the destruction of capitalism, first and foremost and then the destruction of the concept of private property. But first you capture the education system. Those who have been introduced to “social studies” have met the enemy face to face. Social studies came from the ideologues of Fabian Socialism — the Webbs, George Bernard Shaw and John Maynard Keynes. A first step in capturing young minds and teaching them what to think and not how to think. Those Fabian Socialists were themselves sympathetic to Lenin, Stalin and Marxism while preaching the idea of “gradualism” in expanding their influence on all levels of the countries whose economies were based more on industry and capitalism and embracing individualism and freedom of choice.

    As distasteful as the Hollywood Marxist elite may be the more dangerous segment are the covert types who themselves see the future in terms of feudal overlords imposing their will on ignorant serfs — and many of them are the elitist wealthy class whose wealth was derived by ancestors who succeeded in western capitalism and left their fortunes to “charitable foundations” to be controlled by their progeny and today advancing their political agenda of a broad front.

    Taking Liberty shows distinctly that while focusing on the global agenda of the global warming/ climate change crusade that literally the Earth is shifting under our very feet …


  • Infidel4Ever

    I got a heads up from a buddy on what this idiocy was about and didn't watch it. It's just amazing, these people will speak the most vile lies and slander to push their agenda. Parents beware, these people will do or say anything to indoctrinate our children to be good Communist Multicultural robots.

  • Kevin Stowell

    We have a losing battle against these people unless we quit going to work (which will also help them because we will then hasten our own impoverishment in preparation for their Commie dream world). They live off the wealth created by the producers but their jobs are to propagandize full time. If we could devote all our time to getting the truth out the way they do to get their lies out, we'd all starve to death.

  • BS77

    Thanks Michelle……how many more warnings do you need? THe US is rapidly becoming a Euro style stupid socialist welfare Nanny State run by ignorant PC slaves to libertard think….Zinn is the pied piper to all the lib morons who grovel at the feet of America's enemies…the terrorists, the NEA and ACORN morons, radical anarchists and global warming frauds…

  • BS77

    There are lots of little Zinn hand wringing Marxists who sympathize with our enemies, call for expanding the socialist welfare state, who hate grades and standards….preferring the soft and fuzzy realm of student's Orwellian emdorsement of most left wing paradigms….global warming, Castro-Chavez as “misunderstood” men, US whites as the most oppressive and barbaric fiends ever to exist on planet earth, the veneration of criminals, lunatics, terrorists and brute dictators as “progressives”.

  • USMCSniper

    As an adjunct professor of physics, I have always found leftist's crude revisions of history are as inaccurate as they are deliberately malicious. It is an embarassment to observe their intellectual ineptness where instead of dispensing knowledge and contributing to the intellectual growth of students to mature thinking adults, they produce subjective nihilists with inflated opinions of themselves driven by their emotions who know next to nothing and can barely read and write coherently.

  • Lary9

    Ms. Malkin needs political rehabilitation and when Prof. Zinn and the boyz take over, I'm sure she will benefit from the revolution's free-education reforms. All we need to decide is where to locate the gulags. I'm thinking Alaska or maybe the Mojave. I can almost hear 'em singing "The Internationale" now.

  • Lary9

    PS: Whew. You guys are so predictable. If you're gonna be conservative–be real consevatives.

  • 080

    Did you catch the interview on Channel l3 of the interview with Bill Moyers. Zinn rehearsed his catechism which cited all the riots and uprisings in American History as real democracy. He thought the International Workers of the World were the real thing. None of this was unusual, but you had to see Moyers letting the whole mess go by without raising a single objection. All his did was to shake his head o.k.

  • prudentman

    How about that “White House Office of Social Innovation” directed by that one who is “finally happy to be an American” the Socialist tutor of Barack Hussein Obama, Michelle Obama? Now this is “Community Organizing” for Socialism finance by the good ole taxpayers in order to make all of us Orwellian Progressives.

  • mishavolkov

    Tovarishch Zinn showed his Red stripes when he mentioned Stalinist Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun. Naturally, liar Zinn “forgot” that this “anti-war” book was Soviet agitprop and was written during the Stalin-Hitler alliance. Getting into the war was bad since Hitler was Stalin's friend. Naturally, all that changed on June 22, 1941. Then the slogan changed to Second Front Now! Remember Comrade Liar Zinn?

  • larrybob

    I missed the show but I've read the book, and it's great. It carries on in the tradition of Edmund Wilson's To the Finland Station.

  • brenanc

    Doesn't seem to be many ways to peacefully silence this crowd, does there?

  • http://www.christiansofasia.com/ Paul

    Hollywood's left-leaning immoral celebrities should first clean up their own lives before attempting to educate others.

  • WFB2

    “Social Justice” is code for Marxism.

  • Anti-Zinn

    All this press will probably backfire for the Zinn lovers- IF people act.

    When I was in high school, I had a teacher who religiously subscribed to Zinn's worldview. He claimed to use People's History as a supplement to the textbook but it really WAS the textbook of the class. Most of the assignments were based off of it. I dropped his class when it became clear I was dealing with a “true believer.” He told me that I was “a moron” and that no one who knew what they were talking about had ever questioned Zinn. The principal didn't understand what the problem was because he'd never even heard of Zinn!

    The higher profile Howard Zinn becomes though, the harder it'll become for them to spread propaganda unquestioned. I encourage you all to keep an eye out to see if Zinn's book is being used in your child's school. My mother called around after my incident and found it was being used in all four of the districts she contacted. It is frequently used in both high school and college U.S. History classes.

    And I agree with what a previous poster said- History Channel is a JOKE! At least, Zinn is where he belongs, alongside 9-11 conspiracy theories and nonsense about Atlantis.

  • Lary9

    Jeez! Sniper, try not to blow a head gasket!
    I know it's not easy since conservatives are not “driven by their emotions” but I respect your effort.Take a deep breath and let it all out. There doesn't that feel better?

  • Lary9

    Howard Zinn was an honorable patriot who served heroically during WW2 and produced a work of history that needed telling. It doesn't pretend to be a manifesto. Jumpin' Judas Palomino! He put himself through college using the GI Bill–a bit of the old American success story, I think. Shame on you and Malkin for rippin' that old man's opus. He was a labor organizer. What did you expect him to write? A history of the Rockefellers? Live a little and let the opposition have its heroes. Would you rather us lefties have the works of that old reprobate Mao in our dens instead?

  • Anti-Zinn

    I don't care what you have in your den. That's a red herring. I never said you couldn't (or shouldn't) read Zinn. In fact, I have both Mao's Red Book of Quotations AND Zinn's People's History of the United States on my bookshelf at home. I collect books written by people who have all sorts of opinions because I actually try to understand other people's thoughts before I critique them.

    What was being discussed was an entirely different matter- whether Zinn's book was ideal for classrooms. I say no because:

    1. Other people have done a better job of covering the same material, even from the “revisionist” standpoint.

    2. Zinn is blantantly partisan. At times, he drops all pretenses of history and openly rants about his political views. At one point, he claims that if his vision of an ideal society was put in place, there would only be a four hour work week. He offers no objective evidence for this claim. This makes him less than ideal for schools, which are not supposed to be idelogical indoctrination zones.

    3. He gets facts wrong. There's several places online that have fact checked Zinn and shown how often he simply is completely wrong.

    I do not care if Howard Zinn is a veteran because it's irrelevant to his skills as a historian. His age isn't relevant to his skills as a historian, either. Please take a Logic 101 class and learn to argue with less fallacies. Thank you.

  • Lary9

    You're right. I stand corrected. And I actually agree with you about Zinn in the classroom. I read your comment too quickly and reacted with an affectionate bias since I harbor a fondness for Professor Zinn.
    [I hope this lapse will not be reflected in my permanent record.]

  • Lary9

    Marxism isn't the 'enemy' anymore. Didn't you get the memo?

  • Lary9

    It's ironic that you use the term narcissism since I believe that capitalists are essentially narcissistic and they only preach about the visionary purity of their economic system. You never hear them getting honest about the parasitic potential that lurks beneath the profit motive like a self-centered troll. You never hear them admitting the dismal failures of a flawed economic model that leaves human resources behind, stacked up in unemployment lines like recyclables. This tension between visionary capitalism and narcissistic capitalism is what this latest Wall Street fiasco is about. When the world population reaches 15 billion how are we going to justify capitalism without regulation? It will be a wild west show–Mad Max meets NASDAQ. But Howard Zinn? Nah. He has nothing to say.

  • Lary9

    Sad. But true. Looks like you're gonna have to push me down and kick sand in my face.
    This blog is like wingnut choir practice for the far-out-there. Doesn't anyone here ever think for themselves and divert from the party line?

  • Lary9

    The Hollywood Marxist elite? What are you smoking?

  • Lary9

    You admit you “didn't watch it” but you comment on it anyhow. Good. Don't let facts stand in the way of a satisfying ad hominem attack. Damn those Communist Multicultural robot indoctrinators!
    (It's like a good dose of Castor Oil, isn't it?)

  • Lary9

    It's true, Personally, I keep my de-coder ring on all the time. I never know when those Marxists will try to sneak an encrypted buzz word past me. Like “social justice” for example— as if it was the same “social justice” they talk about in the Constitution, but we know it's not! Right?

  • Lary9

    I couldn't agree more except my kids never listened to me and one's an investment banker. The other is a stay-at-home mom with Republican leanings. Needless to say I'm humiliated at SDS reunions.

  • aspacia


    Want to bet on that. Remember that Van Jones was an avowed communist. How about Anita Dunn's remarks regarding Mao and Mother Theresa. Now we have a government attempting to take over our health care. How about the unions controlling GM.

    Much of what I am seeing from the Obama administration is communism, and seems to follow Alinsky's playbook. I am a teacher, and most of the faculty where I work are socialist or borderline communist. One was Ayers pupil in Chicago. The threat is just as real as Islamic militancy.

    Also, I have read Das Kapital, a requirement, and aced the tests regarding communism and the dialectic.

    In the future try to not be so patronizing.

  • aspacia

    Republicans and Independents give far more to charity, than do most Democrats.

    Also, much of the real estate fallout stems from Freddie and Fannie loaning money to those who could not pay it back.

    Zinn is a problem, because many teacher believe in his social engineering, rather than academic excellence. Why? Because most k-12 teachers have their degrees in pedagogy, not their discipline.

  • abrahamstubenhaus

    Dear Lary9,
    Thank you for your interesting view. It requires thinking. However, while I need to think about what you said regarding the upcoming 15 million, perhaps you might read again what I wrote…”…the essence of narcissism which is so self involved that it does not allow others to enter. Therefore, rather than help the poor see the tremendous opportunities they can use to raise their financial positions, they prefer instead to pity the poor, shower them with money, and keep them steeped in the same situation they have always been in; dependent on the kindness of others, which presents no reason to better themselves since they are already receiving. This denial of narcissists causes the impoverished to remain encircled…”
    That is where the narcissistic, self absorbed “givers” become the “perpetuators.” The poverty goes on and the rich liberals go on.
    Additionally may I please ask you to check out the following FACTS and STAATISTICS (not conjecture or theory) about the poor in America? ….

  • WFB2

    Good for you Lary9! Eternal vigilence is the price of something or other…I've forgotten. My decoder ring is old and is powered by hampsters running on a treadmill so its operation is iffy. Keep me informed if anything sinister develops OK? Also, I'd like to know where the section on “Social Justice” appears in the Constitution? Is it in the part about Guaranteed Free Everything and Carefree Living for All? My copy of the Constitution, like my decoder ring, is old so that I may not be be up to date on the “Living and Breathing” version that's re-written to fit ever-changing Lefty dogmas.
    Oh wait!! I found it! It's in the part about “From each according to ability; to each according to need”! Whew!! Thanks anyway!

  • Lary9

    As to “social justice”, I admit that I was not quoting but rather paraphrasing intent from the preamble to the Constitution. Refer to where it says: “in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility…promote the general welfare”, etc. Surely it's not a stretch to acknowledge these phrases as 18th Century speak for social justice.

  • Lary9


    We are basically in agreement. I detest the 'welfare state' too. It's horrible social engineering and was doomed to fail from its inception. Anyone with a clear mind could see that regardless of political affiliation.
    By the way, it's 15 billion

  • Lary9

    What are your stats? From where?

  • Lary9

    OK. I'll try.
    But I was just making a joke about the downgrading of Marxism from “demon seed” to “nuisance with a snot-nose” over the past 40 years or so.

  • Lary9

    PS: How did we get off on a communism tangent? What happened to 1.5 billion outraged jihadists screaming about Sharia finance in Arabic while wildly jabbing the air with a mandatory angry finger? That's what worries me–not Uncle Boris.

  • aspacia

    Dear Lard9,

    Just remember that the asp bite horribly disfigures and is lethal.

    As for statistics, I have taught English university transfer courses at the community college level, and every single faculty member is socialist or communist; not one was conservative. This is common in most college and university humanities departments. Upon reflection, there was only one political science instructor who was conservative.

    There are numerous polls supporting the fact that humanities teachers are liberal, and few are conservative.

    Why not do some research for yourself, instead of attempting to waste my time.

    Without appreciation, regards or respect


  • WFB2

    Well in fact it IS a stretch and one that too many people make. The 'justice' referred to was in regard to the law – crime and punishment – not social equity. The same applies to 'general welfare' and 'domestic tranquility'. The intent was to establish conditions wherein citizens could provide for themselves in a peaceful and safe environment. It has nothing to do with wealth distribution or economic 'safety nets' in the sense of 'social justice' as used in today's lexicon. You're another brainwashed victim of our taxpayer supported left wing indoctrination centers (aka the public school system).

  • Lary9

    OK if you say so.

  • Lary9

    . All I asked was where's your stats. I didn't insult you or cast aspersions at your politics. Why do you rudely assume that I'm your adversary. You don't even know me.I would have preferred a supporting reference to the statement about charity, etc. It's easy to make such grandiose pronouncements without citing a source. For example: only 14% of serving Republican senators actually have military service whereas 68% of Democratic senators are veterans. This is according to the USG Founders Research Group in a 2003 index. That's a stat. No need for all that toxic hostility, youngster.

  • WFB2

    Not my say so. The Constitution was specifically written to protect the citizenry from a potentially tyrannical government – not to establish a carefree welfare state. Government as servant, not master. Loss of individual liberty is the price to be paid for relying on government benefits to help you function. When the government pays you do what you're told. Liberty or tyranny – take your pick. You can't have both. That's the dividing line between conservatives (freedom) and liberals (government dominance). Read some F.A. Hayek's books (e.g.; “The Fatal Conceit”, “The Road to Serfdom”).

  • Lary9

    I disagree with you but not with the high value you attach to personal liberty and the intolerability of tyrants. There I am with you 100%. For anyone to assume otherwise would be a foolish mistake. Where we differ is in our view of how best to adapt to modernity. With global populations exploding and countries like India and China sure to demand more and more of the world's GDP, we need new solutions. With social, economic and cultural problems proliferating here at home we need new paradigms. National demographics are changing so rapidly that conservative sociological understandings of 'average American' and the 'American Dream' need reconsidering. We need to retool. I believe that conservatism keeps the baby and the bath water. Liberals throw out the dirty bath water–and the baby too often. We need to find common ground. Conservatives need to conserve those things which are conservable. The Left Wing needs to be certain that 'liberal' doesn't become libertine. Both sides of the aisle come to the table with an important perspective on what needs to be done. Time was when we could talk with one another and reason together. You want your country back, right? Before and after the Revolution what do you think Jefferson, Adams, Washington and Madison did? Yell and scream and call each other names? Or reason together? I know my answer.

  • aspacia


    You directed your comment to “asp,” a deadly viper. Consequently, I responded with toxic words. That is, you did insult me.

    I did support my claim, albeit, not from statistical research, but from personal experience, however, that, in itself is invalid. Too many students are exposed to liberal professors' political rants in math, science, music, or numerous other disciplines.


  • WFB2

    Your points taken. The contemporary political dichotomy can be traced to the time of the French Revolution: a by-product of the collision of rising urban industrialism with long-established rural feudalism and an outmoded, decadent monarchy. Liberte! Egalite! Fraternite! The fraternity aspect fell by the wayside as the liberty v. equality conflict sharpened. So here we are 200 years later in the same dynamic. But the political left comes in two flavors: liberalism and collectivism (communism). Both hate conservatives as impediments to change. The radical left is militantly revolutionary, utopian, messianic, angry and dangerous while posing as champions of “social justice”. Caveat emptor.

    Anyway thanks for the discussion.

  • Lary9

    You betcha.

  • Lary9

    I put an abbreviated header on some replies because occasionally my
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  • aspacia

    Obviously, you do not know U.S. history. Our founders continually fought, and undermined each other. Hence, the numerous checks and balances in government. Adams hated Jefferson, Ben Franklin disliked Burr. Read The First American, Chenow's Hamilton, or McCullough's John Adams for insight.

  • Lary9

    Here's what I heard:
    Adams and Jefferson were great friends until just before the election of
    John Adams as the 2nd. president. It was during this one-term largely
    ineffective administration that Jefferson was his unreconciled VP. At this
    point they had already parted ways. Finally, years later, as they approached
    the end of life, they began to exchange letters. Some feel it was a
    reconciliation of sorts. Some not. Ironically, both died on July 4, 1826
    within hours of each other. In fact, it is reported that Adams said, on his
    deathbed, “Jefferson survives me!” In fact, unknown to Adams Jefferson had
    died a few hours earlier. Now that's what I heard.
    By the way, did you mean David McCullough, winner of the Pulitzer Prize, the
    National Book Award and recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom? That
    McCullough? If so, I read him.
    You've got great factoids, Data Boy.

  • aspacia

    Yes, I was referring to McCullough, Chernow and Brands also provide interesting insights into Franklin and Hamilton.

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