Whose Occupation?


Pages: 1 2

The decision by the Obama Administration to stop pressuring Israel to end the West Bank settlements in order to get the Palestinian leadership to return to the negotiations table, should not obscure the following sad reality: The fact that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank has not ended is largely, if not entirely, the fault of the Palestinian leadership.  This may sound counter-intuitive, since it is Israel that is continuing to occupy the West Bank, but it has been the Palestinian leadership that has repeatedly refused to accept Israel’s offers to end the occupation.  It was recently revealed that in 2008, the Israeli government again offered to end the occupation, and once again the Palestinian leadership failed to accept the offer.  This is what the Associated Press reported on November 27, 2010.

Since leaving office, [Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud] Olmert has confirmed that he made Israel’s most far-reaching offer to the Palestinians, proposing a Palestinian state on close to 94 percent of the West Bank and offering the equivalent of the final 6 percent of territory in a land “swap.”

Olmert said yesterday that the Palestinians never responded to his offer, made in the final months of his term in office.

“I think that they made a mistake.”

Yassir Arafat made the same mistake in 2000 and 2001 when he refused a similar offer from Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and United States President Bill Clinton.

In 2005 when Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon completely ended the occupation of the Gaza Strip, Hamas responded by showering thousands of rockets on Israeli civilian targets.

And now in 2010 the Palestinian leadership is refusing to sit down and negotiate with the Netanyahu government unless Israel accepts “preconditions.”

This reminds me of what Abba Eban famously said after Israel won a decisive war started by the Arabs in 1967:

“This was the first war in history that on the morrow the victors sued for peace and the vanquished called for unconditional surrender.”

It is no wonder that so many Israeli citizens are skeptical about whether the Palestinian leadership is willing to make, or capable of actually making peace with Israel.  This skepticism has been fueled by a recent article on the official website of the Palestinian Authority claiming that there is no hard evidence of any Jewish connection to the Western Wall, Judaism’s holiest site.  Instead, it claims that “this wall is the place where the Prophet Muhammad tethered his winged steed, Buraq, during his miraculous overnight journey from Mecca to Jerusalem in the seventh century.”  The Palestinian Authority article asserts that “the Al Buraq Wall is the western wall of Al Aksa, which the Zionist occupation falsely claims ownership of and calls the Wailing Wall or Kotel.”  In other words, the Palestinian leadership expects Israelis to believe Muslim theological claims over Jewish archaeological evidence.

Moreover, the Palestinian Authority refuses to accept Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people, and refuses to end the repeated incitements against Jews that are a staple of the Palestinian Authority controlled media.

It is also no wonder that many Israelis have concluded that the Palestinian leadership has marginalized the Palestinians.  What can the P.A. now offer Israel in exchange for the end of the occupation and the division of Jerusalem?  Not peace in the north, which is controlled by Iran’s wholly owned subsidiary Hezbollah.  Not peace in the west, which is controlled by Hamas, another Iranian surrogate.  All the Palestinian Authority can now offer Israel is peace on the relatively quiet eastern border.  And it would be an uncertain and incomplete peace even with the P.A., since there is no assurance that the Palestinian Authority will retain control over the West Bank, and even if it manages to isolate Hamas in Gaza, there is no guarantee that terrorist groups will not use the West Bank as a launching pad for rockets and other forms of terrorism.

Pages: 1 2

  • meira

    Jewish presence in its ancestral homeland, Judea and Samaria, is not "occupation" — despite what many believe — any more than any other place in Israel. The area was designated as part of the Jewish national home by international law, the San Remo agreements, League of Nations and US Congressional approval. The area remains one of the few places in the world that has no designated sovereignty — and is disputed — claimed by Palestinians and Israelis.
    Turning it into a second Arab Palestinian state (after Jordan) represents a threat to Israel and to the stability of the entire region. No Palestinian will accept any borders, any acceptance of Israel, any peace deal. So why does Dershowitz keep insisting on the "two-state solution" ?
    The Palestinians want all of what they consider "Palestine," including Israel, not part of it. Not to understand that is delusional.

    • ObamaYoMoma

      The Palestinians want all of what they consider "Palestine," including Israel, not part of it. Not to understand that is delusional.

      Not just so-called Palestinians want all of what they consider "Palestine," including Israel, not a part of it, but indeed the entire worldwide Islamic ummah want what they consider "Palestine," including Israel, not a part of it, because the establishment of Israel in 1948 constituted an illegal occupation of Muhammadan land, and, per Sharia, land once a part of Dar al Islam must always remain a part of Dar al Islam.

      Thus, because the creation of Israel constituted an illegal occupation of Muhammadan land, it created a “fard ayn,” an individual obligation incumbent upon all Muhammadans to wage jihad against Israel until such time as Israel is destroyed and the illegally occupied land is returned back to Dar al Islam via the imposition of Sharia. Hence, the reality is the so-called Palestinians are the proxies of the global Islamic ummah known as Dar al Islam, and their sole purpose is to keep the pressure on Israel to eventually weaken it and to undermine its will to fight and resist until such time as the final assault can come.

      Therefore, the so-called Palestinian-Israeli conflict or so-called Arab-Israeli conflict isn’t a conflict at all, but instead a permanent and perpetual jihad being waged against the Jewish infidel state of Israel by the entire Islamic ummah which comprises the Dar al Islam, and that jihad will also continue perpetually as long as Israel continues to exist, no matter how many peace process are implemented to deceive gullible useful idiot kafir infidels like Alan Dershowitz.

      Furthermore, that jihad being waged against Israel is just one jihad out of many jihads, both overt and stealth and both hot and cold, also being waged in numerous places around the world, which altogether comprises the greater global jihad at large, and which will also continue permanently and perpetually as long as unbelievers continue to exist in the world.

    • ziontruth

      There are two senses of the word "occupation," one of which I agree with (but should be ended) and one I reject.

      One sense is of maintaining a military force over a hostile population. In that sense, I agree there's currently an occupation in Judea and Samaria. I hold that this occupation should be ended.

      The second sense, which is the one the members of the Leftist/Islamist usually intend, is of holding lands that don't belong to the nation holding it. I reject this sense categorically, if it refers to Jews "occupying" Judea and Samaria; as Palestine is the indigenous land of the Jews, only non-Jews can be occupying (in that sense of the word) land in Palestine. This is why I want the occupation (first sense, see above) to end, not by ending the Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria, but by booting the Arab settler-colonist invaders.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    the Palestinian Authority refuses to accept Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people,

    Which is the real crux of the situation, not the disputed territories, as the creation of Israel in 1948, which amounted to the reestablishment of Dar al Harb on what was formerly Dar al Islam, constituted an illegal occupation of Muhammadan land, according to Sharia law, which is the only law that Muhammadans recognize and adhere to, and land once made a part of Dar al Islam must always remain a part of Dar al Islam. Hence, the illegal occupation of land by Israel creates a “fard ayn” which makes it an individual obligation incumbent upon all Muhammadans to wage jihad against the infidel state of Israel until such time as Israel has been destroyed and the land that comprises Israel today had been rendered back into the Dar al Islam via the imposition of Sharia once again.

    Therefore, the creation of a Palestinian terrorist state that will inevitably morph into a place from which to launch jihad will not result in peace in the Middle East, as the jihad being waged against Israel will continue perpetually as long as Israel exist, just like the global jihad as well will continue perpetually as long as unbelievers in the world continue to exist.

    Thus, stop believing that there is a two-state solution. A two-state solution has always been a ploy to use useful idiots like Alan Dershowitz to weaken Israel, and it worked like a charm. The only solution is to render the Dar al Islam too weak to wage jihad via the West confiscating its enormous oil wealth and oil assets. Otherwise, it will be used to wage jihad against us perpetually forever.

    • tanstaafl

      Well, the west did discover the oil, built the facilities to bring it out of the ground, process it and then the port facilities to ship it around the world and the Saudis provided……………………………that's right! They own the batch of sand!

      And what, exactly have the "Guardians of the Two Sacred Shrines" done with all that oil money they have done nothing for? Launch a jihad against the rest of the world!

      You can take the Bedu out of the desert, but you can't take the sand out of his shorts.

  • muchiboy

    "The fact that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank has not ended is largely, if not entirely, the fault of the Palestinian leadership. "

    Had the Zionists simply STOPPED the EXPANSION of ILLEGAL settlements that would have gone a long way to show good faith on the part of Israel.And they couldn't even do that,for America.Such actions and bad faith say it all.Again,give them an inch and they take a mile.Period.In my opinion,they do not even deserve that inch.muchiboy

    • ziontruth

      "Had the Zionists simply STOPPED the EXPANSION of ILLEGAL settlements…"

      It is by definition impossible for Jews to be illegally settling their indigenous territory, the Land of Israel, Palestine.

      "…that would have gone a long way to show good faith on the part of Israel"

      No, it would have shown weakness. It would have shown willingness to capitulate to the demands of an imperialist agenda. The imperialist agenda of Islam.

      "Again,give them an inch and they take a mile."

      Couldn't have described the Muslims better myself.

      "In my opinion,they do not even deserve that inch."

      Behold anti-Zionism. Observe how it has nothing, nothing what! So! Ever! to do with Jew-hatred. Nothing, I tells ya! How could anyone arrive at such a conclusion?!

    • Dana

      Muchiboy, please explain to me why the Israeli settlements are, as you wrote, illegal?

      • ziontruth

        There's not much to explain, Dana. Muchiboy, like nearly all anti-Zionists, has bought into a fictional history that puts Zionism as a colonial enterprise of white Europeans and the Arabs of Palestine as a nation that's been on the land since time immemorial. Viewed through this lens, every Israeli Jewish settlement, including Tel-Aviv, is illegal.

        There is no way of changing him (or any anti-Zionist) except by changing this lens. Such a change is an order of magnitude more difficult than offering sound evidence and citing reliable source, for it is more a change of heart than of mind. It rarely happens.

        It's why I don't believe in hasbarah (efforts of convincing people) as a whole. It's why I believe in forcing the sources of opinion to end their complicity with our enemies, under threat of having their operating franchises in Israel revoked. If they abuse their freedom to side with our enemies, they should not benefit from our freedom any longer.

    • ObamaYoMoma

      Muchiboy, if you weren’t totally obsessed with Jew hatred, you’d realize that the so-called Palestinians, which were created out of hold cloth in Moscow in 1964 by the Soviet KGB, are in fact the proxies of Dar al Islam, and their sole purpose besides being the permanent victims of the Jews, is to keep the pressure on Israel in order to destroy their will to resist, until the final assault can come.

      The fact of the matter is there is no peace possible as the establishment of Israel in 1948, per Sharia, constituted the illegal occupation of Muhammadan land, as land that once belonged to Dar al Islam must always remain a part of Dar al Islam. Hence, the jihad being waged against Israel, irrespective of the settlements that you are obsessed with or irrespective of peace processes is permanent, and will continue perpetually as long as Israel exist, just like the greater global jihad at large will also continue as long as unbelievers exist. The reality is just like the Jews you are obsessed with hating, you too are the target of Dar al Islam’s jihad, only you are too filled with hatred to know it.

    • MixMChess

      More lies from Ron Grant. Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria — the West Bank — since ancient times. The only time Jews have been prohibited from living in the territories was relatively recently when Jordan ruled the area from 1948 to 1967 and declared it "Judenrein".

      That said, the settlements are completely LEGAL under INTERNATIONAL LAW. Stephen Schwebel, formerly President of the International Court of Justice, notes that a country may LEGALLY acquire territory in a war of self-defense. Schwebel also observes that a state may install security measures in acquired territory designed to protect its citizens.

      According to Law Professor Eugene Rostow, Resolution 242 gives Israel a legal right to be in the West Bank and “allows Israel to administer the territories” until "a just and lasting peace" is achieved.

      It is important to point out that the so-called settlements make up less than 2% of the entire area of the W. Bank. An overwhelming majority of the settlements (over 70%) are simply suburbs of major Israeli cities and are near vacant area not in close proximity to any Arab population.

    • Dummies

      It's not illegal for Jews to build homes… if it's illegal for Jews to build than surely it's illegal for Palestinians to build too. Otherwise your just being a racist.

  • muchiboy

    "Jewish presence in its ancestral homeland, Judea and Samaria, is not "occupation"

    Perhaps the conflict will continue indefinitely.Perhaps for every ten Palestinian children killed by Israeli bombs only one Israeli child will die at your enemies hand.
    Perhaps someday more and more reasonable and moderate Israelis will prefer to live elsewhere in a more just and peace loving country where their child will not be the one to die at the hand of a Palestinian denied his birth right and homeland.Or perhaps the Israelis will in time acknowledge Palestinian suffering at Jewish hands and policies and make the choices that lead to peaceful co-existence,together or apart.
    Israel, despite western neocons and faith based religious bigots,does not belong to the Western world but is more akin to in spirit and policy in what was once Apartheid South Africa and racist Rhodesia.I suppose birds of a feather applies to your regional neighborhood.If it wasn't for the fact that the western liberal democracies allowed and facilitated the occupation of Palestine by hundreds of thousands of European Jews I would say we don't want you here(i.e.Israeli Zionists).But this is as much your homeland as is Palestine now,given the history of the Diaspora and the occupation and re-creation of Israel. And the west has a moral responsibility not to abandon the Palestinian people to the occupation and oppression of the Zionists.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      Ah, another idiotic rambling from Ron Grant. Please Ron, try just once to provide a single fact that supports any of your claims rather than just listing generic talking points from the Pali-Nazi handbook. I think I've wasted enough of my time proving you wrong on each and every one of your claims. Do us all a favor and go play in traffic.

  • muchiboy

    "It is by definition impossible for Jews to be illegally settling their indigenous territory, the Land of Israel, Palestine."

    That sentiment may be popular in someones court of opinion,but I suspect not in the International courts,ziontruth.I still say Jews could have it all if they would only share with the Palestinian people.That would demand a certain magnanimity on the part of Arab and Jew and obvious risks but the benefits would be your dream come true.muchiboy

    • ziontruth

      "That sentiment may be popular in someones court of opinion,but I suspect not in the International courts,ziontruth."

      The opinion of international "law" is irrelevant and should be ignored. There should not exist such thing as international law; from its inception, it has been nothing but a blight on the rights of each nation to its sovereignty, rights curtailed in favor of the dictates of an oligarchy of select states (the tin-pot dictatorships and OIC lackeys at the United Nations).

      "I still say Jews could have it all if they would only share with the Palestinian people."

      And I say the Jews are the Palestinian people, the one and only true Palestinian people, so your point is moot. We have no obligation to share with the Arab imperialists.

    • MixMChess

      "That sentiment may be popular in someones court of opinion,but I suspect not in the International courts,ziontruth."

      Wrong again Ron Grant. Jews had a continuous historical connection to the land of Israel for well over 3,000 years. Israel was built through the legal purchase of lands in the holy land. Based on these two facts alone, under jus cogens (peremptory norms) the Jewish state was completely legal under International Law. Additionally the mandate for a Jewish homeland in Israel under the League of Nations created another international precedent and authority for Israel's legality. Lastly, the U.N. has legally recognized Israel as a state under international treaty and international law. Don't try to pretend that you are an international lawyer or understand international law Ron Grant, it makes you look dumber than you already are.

    • MixMChess

      "I still say Jews could have it all if they would only share with the Palestinian people."

      Are you really this stupid? Arabs already possess over 80% of the Jewish National Homeland. Still 20% of Israel's population is Arab and enjoys more civil and human rights under Israel than they would in any other Arabic/Islamic County and most Western nations. I guess you won't be satisfied until all of the Middle East is judenrein of the indigenous Jewish population?

    • Dummies

      First off international law always takes a back seat to national or domestic law. This is obvious by the constant violation of international law in many of the UN member nations including the US. In any regard once you come down from your high and mighty horse of international law you'll realize that pragmatically speaking peace can only happen when Israeli's and primarily Palestinians agree to it. Second the UN calls for a peaceful and secure Middle East, unfortunately the Palestinians have failed to demonstrate that they are capable of such a feat for over 60 years now, both the PLO and Hamas seek the destruction of Israel and to reclaim all of Palestine. The territory which is geographically called Palestine was given this name by the Romans who had exiled the Jews after the Great Revolt of Bar Kochba in order to try and erase all Jewish sovereignty in the land. The Jews never relinquished the rights to their land so in order to truly free Palestine in every sense of the world it needs to be returned to the original owners the Jewish people. I think the best solution to the conflict for the time being is to make Palestinians citizens of Jordan and residents of Israel. Meaning they stay where they are and work in Israel, pay taxes in Israel, and enjoy all the benefits Israeli's get like universal health care etc. and they vote in Amman's elections. The refugee's should be resettled in Jordan in all the empty space that they have in their country. Jordan's population is already 70% Palestinian the Queen is Palestinian and the crown Prince is Palestinian… so why do we need to make a 2nd Palestinian state?

  • muchiboy

    "No, it would have shown weakness."

    Strength can be abused,ziontruth,as the Jewish people know more then any other people.The Germans used their overwhelming strength against your people as your people use it against the Palestinian people.Thanks to the West that we stopped the Nazis and at least try to restrain the excesses of the Zionists.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "as your people use it against the Palestinian people."

      Wrong again Ron Grant. Jews have only defended themselves against genocide at the hands of the Arabs. It is 22 Arab/Islamic countries vs. 1 tiny little Israel. So who really has the overwhelming power?

      The Arabs waged a war of extermination against the Jews in 1948. Over 7 Arab armies attacked and invaded Israel trying to wipe out the Jewish population from existence. In fact, on the day that Israel declared its independence, Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, at a Cairo press conference, declared "jihad", and stated the following:

      "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades"

      Wow he sounds really peaceful to me!

  • muchiboy

    "Again,give them an inch and they take a mile."

    "Couldn't have described the Muslims better myself."

    History just doesn't bear that out.,ziontruth.It's just that for one bad reason or another you cannot admit the crimes of your own people. Understandable,ziontruth,but not reasonable.And leads to the harming of other innocents.We,and you,should know better after what humanity has witnessed.

    " Behold anti-Zionism. Observe how it has nothing, nothing what! So! Ever! to do with Jew-hatred. Nothing, I tells ya! How could anyone arrive at such a conclusion?!"

    Well,if it is Jew hatred,then,it is well deserved and we will live and die by it.But it is your accusation and reality,not mine,ziontruth.But for my part,I will stick by my guns and call it anti Zionism.That is both my defence and reality.The argument is current and ongoing and we are are on different sides of that argument.We can agree to disagree on this one as well.We are both in good company here.
    As to my accusation,I simply refer you to the ongoing,non stop occupation of Palestinian land.Not satisfied with the re-creation (aka colonization)of an ancient biblical entity that has not existed for thousands of years,and at the expense of another people,day-by-day illegal settlements increase inch by inch,house by house,block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood.For an occupying power to do that to an occupied people,I say again,that occupying power does not deserve the inch they first took.muchiboy

    • ziontruth

      "History just doesn't bear that out.,ziontruth."

      No? Then how exactly did the birthplace of Augustine of Hippo (Tunisia) become Islamic? How is it that the Ottoman Turks, after conquering Constantinople in 1453, didn't say, "OK, that's enough," and lay down their arms? How is it that Hamas and Al-Qaeda still talk of taking back Spain?

      Your ignorance of history is astounding.

      "It's just that for one bad reason or another you cannot admit the crimes of your own people."

      I cannot admit what never took place. Zionism constituted no crime.

      "And leads to the harming of other innocents."

      The Arab settler-colonist invaders aren't innocents by any stretch of imagination. They raise their own kids on the heritage of suicide-murder, for heaven's sake!

      "Well,if it is Jew hatred,then,it is well deserved and we will live and die by it."

      I can at least commend you for being honest here and not offering the usual shtick that "I really care for the Jews, I just don't like Zionism."

      "I will stick by my guns and call it anti Zionism."

      Zionism is the Jewish aspiration for sovereignty on their indigenous land. To deny that right of the Jewish people is to hate the Jewish people.

      "…and at the expense of another people,…"

      The Arab people has 22 countries, which is 21 more than it deserves, and on a huge mass of land beyond their indigenous entitlement, which is the Arabian Peninsula. The Palestinian people, the Jews, have only one state, which even under the most expansionist view takes only a moderate space of land on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean.

      Your stance is rank chutzpah.

    • MixMChess

      "History just doesn't bear that out."

      I nearly spit out my coffee laughing at your complete ignorance of basic history. You do realize that the Muslims had been at the gates of Paris? Look at a history of the attempted Islamic conquest of India. You're an absolute idiot Ron Grant.

    • MixMChess

      "I will stick by my guns and call it anti Zionism."

      Nope, there is no rational disagreements on this one. Anti-Zionism IS antisemitism. To single out Jewish self-determination for condemnation is itself a form of racism. The great Martin Luther King Jr. recognized as much. Although being a Rhodesian racist it wouldn't surprise me if you rejected the teachings of the great Dr. King.

    • MixMChess

      ",I simply refer you to the ongoing,non stop occupation of Palestinian land.Not satisfied with the re-creation (aka colonization)of an ancient biblical entity that has not existed for thousands of years,and at the expense of another people,day-by-day illegal settlements increase inch by inch,house by house,block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood."

      Again Ron Grant, the facts don't support your claims. Zionism is a secular movement based on the hard facts that Jews have maintained a continuous presence in the region since biblical times. For instance, throughout the Middle Ages, Jewish communities existed in Jerusalem, Safed, Nablus and Hebron. In fact, Jews had been returning to the holy land for nearly two millennia. The Jews returning in the 19th and 20th centuries were merely part of this age-old pattern.

      As for your expansion claims, they are completely ludicrous. The Israelis have already completely withdrawn from Gaza (inch by inch and house by house), and have stated their intent to do so in the W. Bank as well. Israelis actively give up territory to Islamic imperialists yet somehow you read this Israeli expansionism. Are you really THAT stupid or am I missing something?

    • Dummies

      "As to my accusation,I simply refer you to the ongoing,non stop occupation of Palestinian land." The problem with your accusation is that the Palestinians never had a country and therefore have no land to speak of. They have as much claim to Judea and Samaria as they do to New York or Paris. I'm not going to get into the Palestinian identity issue, but there has never in the history of the world been a Palestinian country governed by Palestinians and so when they claim rights to the '67 boarders this is a fallacy. The '67 boarders are in fact not even boarders they are armistice lines drawn up between Israel and the Arab nations after they had their asses handed to them by Israel. So when you speak of occupation there first must be a sovereign being occupied and since the Palestinians have never been sovereign therefore they are not occupied. No one is forcing them to stay there except their own Arab kin. Also why do you think the PA always has to meet with the Arab leaders before it makes any major steps? Because it's all for the sake of greater Arab unity.
      "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

      For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan." – In a candid interview, Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein
      March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw.

  • muchiboy

    "The Fort Hood massacre has faded from view. The Little Rock Army recruiting station ambush barely registered on the national radar screen. And the arrest this week of a Baltimore-area bomb plotter, intent on blowing up a military center and murdering our troops in the name of Allah, was met with a collective shrug. It’s pointless to rally citizens around “never forget” when their heads are in the sand.

    Civil liberties absolutists are more outraged by the alleged “entrapment” of Muslim conver"

    The"law and order"side of me along with my respect for our soldiers ,yours and mine,outrage me against these attacks and our measured and rational response.Yet,we rule by law,and that distinguishes us from most of the Islamic countries.And more then anything,and built on our "rule of law" society,our respect for civil liberties further distinguishes us from the cruel Islamic societies and ideologies that are confronting and challenging us and our superior and cherished way of life.The scales of justice held by the blindfolded lady has done us and our society well and should continue to do so.There is a price to pay for our way of life and we choose our compromises.I would prefer our compromises to theirs and keep the baby instead of throwing it out with the bathwater like they do. muchiboy

  • A reader from Canada

    The two-state solution is a pipe-dream. The Palestinian Authority has already twice rejected offers for statehood, and responded with terrorism. Israel unilaterally left the Gaza strip, which was quickly turned into a terrorist launchpad. The time has come to end the myth of Palestinian nationhood. This non-nation was a very recent invention by Arabs as a propaganda tool against the west, gaining them money and sympathy for their war against Israel.

  • badaboo

    Muchiboy , you are a bag of wind and full of sheet , and I can't put it more plainly . You've already exposed your bias against jews and Israel in numerous past comments . Yet you try to pass yourself off as an objective and fairminded person . THAT – you are not .
    Sop kick yourself to sleep tonite muchi-boy remembering all the while , that when you wake up , Israel will still be there . Save your propaganda , you're an apologist for undefensible haters and thugs .
    Go read the Palestinian National Charter , go read the Hamas Charter , and the Hezbollah Proclaimation , then come back here and tell me what parts of them are untrue.
    Your arguments depend soley on the gullibility of idiots and those unfortunates who are incapable of connective or critical thought .

  • muchiboy

    "Again Ron Grant, the facts don't support your claims. Zionism is a secular movement based on the hard facts that Jews have maintained a continuous presence in the region since biblical times"

    We keep going over the same ground time and time again.because the issues are so complex and contentious,MixMChess.Until Israelis and the Diaspora realize that they are at least as accountable,and here I am being charitable,as the Palestinians there will be no fair and just settlement,and yours and theirs will continue to die inch by inch,house by house,block by block and neighborhood by neighborhood.It is as if you think you have a God given right to the land,land that was occupied by Palestinians for hundreds if not thousands of years.You really need to get it through your thick Skullcap that the land and history is a shared land and history.The Palestinians likewise need to get it through their thick skullcaps too.Just settle so I can visit the Holy Land.Please.Good night! muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      Are you seriously mentally retarded? Did you even bother to read my post? Or are you just posting with boilerplate neo-marxist waxed philosophy and Pali-nazi talking points? You must get drunk and start posting on frontpagemag given the majority of your posts are barely coherent.

      The Israeli-Arab is not at all complex, except to an ignoramus such as yourself, and I am being charitable in my description. Israelis and Jews are not at all accountable to any of the Palestinians self-created suffering.

      Forget religion, Jewish rights to the land are based on historical, archeological and legal rights that go back thousands of years. Jews have had a continuous presence in the land.

      Palestinians NEVER occupied the land. It was vacant. Please, show me some statistics, maps any facts to support the fact that there were Palestinians present in the Jewish areas of the land in the 19th century. I'll be generous, how bout the 1910s? 1920s? Good luck!

      You need to get it through your thick skull that the land and history is not shared land and history. It is a Jewish history and land. I challenge you to show me evidence of a distinctly Palestinian culture anywhere in the region prior to 1964. Everyone is getting real tired of providing you with free history lessons. Try actually learning about the history of the region instead of coming off like a douche.

    • is_lame

      "It is as if you think you have a God given right to the land,land that was occupied by Palestinians for hundreds if not thousands of years."

      Name one "Palestinian" king from hundreds or thousands of years ago. Any example of "Palestinian" culture (not so fast.. suicide bombing doesn't count). You can't, because the "Palestinian" people were only invented about 50 years ago. Read history, learn.

    • MixMChess

      "because the issues are so complex and contentious,MixMChess."

      No Ron Grant, the issues are only complex to the feeble minded such as yourself, and I am being charitable in my description of you. Did you even bother to read my post? There is no "shared" history in any sense of the word. The history of the land is clear in that there was no indigenous population unified by a common culture, other than the Jews. The land was never stable outside of the Jewish presence, foreigners constantly settled in the land because Muslim rulers wanted to populate it, because it was the holy land and drew the religious, and because of the shortage of labor. Jews have had a constant presence in the land for over 3,000 years. Diaspora Jews had been returning and settling the land for over two millennia. The Jews returning in the 19th and 20th centuries were merely part of this age-old pattern.

  • badaboo

    Dont hear you muchiboy…..no comment on those Charters and Covenants ? Of course there will be no peace , of course it will be street by street , as your facetious statement rambles on . It is NOT the "holy land " ….it IS ISRAEL , a sovereign nation , legitimately established and accepted by the UN and most nations of the world ……except that is , by those enemies from the start , who have attempted to destroy Israel . And they have SEALED their hatred and TRUE INTENTIONS in their vile Charters , which are in fact sworn covenants , giving social and religious license to MURDER j_ws .
    You turn your head muchiboy , and ignore that reality , for it negates your argument , but affirms your true intentions and sentiments , which you have let slip in past statements .

  • muchiboy

    "I think the best solution to the conflict …… The refugee's should be resettled in Jordan in all the empty space that they have in their country. Jordan's population is already 70% Palestinian the Queen is Palestinian and the crown Prince is Palestinian… so why do we need to make a 2nd Palestinian state? "

    Not exactly what I had in mind,Dummies.I think you missed the part about "magnanimity".muchiboy