Israel’s Israel-Bashing Left

P. David Hornik is a freelance writer and translator living in Beersheva and author of the book Choosing Life in Israel. 


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“If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it,” Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas told reporters in Ramallah on Saturday. And reiterated: “when a Palestinian state is established, it would have no Israeli presence[.]”

Even to say that Abbas’s words elicited yawns—let alone charges of racism and Nazism—among those who champion the cause of a Palestinian state would be an exaggeration, since even a yawn is a kind of reaction.

The Israeli Left, however, has been going pretty wild lately in leveling such charges—not, of course, against the respective Palestinian entities in the West Bank and Gaza but against Israel itself. And as usual, much of the venom is concentrated in the Israeli Left’s flagship publication, the daily newspaper Haaretz.

“The fire of hatred and racism is ablaze in Israel”—thus, no less, the paper opened its editorial on Thursday. And it extended the metaphor in Sunday’s editorial, charging Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu with supplying “fuel for the fires of racism and xenophobia.”

On Friday, columnist Ari Shavit wrote of Israel’s “xenophobic stench” and “xenophobic frenzy” and that “the virus of hatred is making Israel look and sound like a benighted racist country.”

Also on Sunday, columnist Zvi Barel, in a barely coherent rant, asked whether “Israeli racism [can] be eliminated through law, trial and punishment, or is it already part of the Israeli identity?” Barel also averred that for Israelis, “being Israeli means belonging to a separate race that also happens to be Jewish; what counts is the Israeli race.”

But even these were bested by another Haaretz op-ed on Sunday, this one by Hebrew University scholar Daniel Blatman. For Blatman, Israel is not just a swamp of racism but—no less—on the verge of Nazism. As he writes:

Millions of people in Germany who would not have defined themselves as anti-Semites and certainly not as Nazis were swept up in the messianic and pseudo-religious public atmosphere. Israel today is becoming slowly and increasingly swept up in “redemptive xenophobia.”… In the Israel of today, we can observe quite a few conditions whose presence in other societies and among other peoples led to racial separation, ethnic cleansing and even genocide…the domestic reality in Israel today is 1932.

What has prompted this latest flare-up on the Israeli Left, beyond its usual drumbeat of defamation? Mainly three things.

One was the now-famous “rabbis’ letter,” a statement earlier this month by about 50 municipal rabbis calling on Israeli Jews not to sell or rent homes to Arabs. The second, which followed soon after, was a rally on December 20 in Bat Yam, a town just south of Tel Aviv, against Arab-Jewish intermingling.

And the third was a rally the next day, December 21, in southern Tel Aviv. In this one the complaint was not about Arabs but, instead, about the area’s infiltration by mostly-illegal African migrants.

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  • posse101

    according to U.N. law second generation refugees can not be thought of as refugees. but i guess that doesn't apply to the charming and wondrous Palestinian Refugees. who , if you look it up, left of their own volition, despite many attempts from the new Israeli government to plead with them to stay. the Arab countries who were set to attack Israel also promised them land when the Jews were run out of Israel. this pompous inducement plus threats against their staying from these same Arab governments made a lot of people leave. now they want the "Right of Return" and their own state. what a joke!!!

    what about the "Right of Return" for all the Jews who were driven out of the Middle Eastern countries never being allowed to go back for fear of death? what about all the Jews who were killed and tortured in all the Arab countries before the others were finally driven out? what about all the Christians who were driven out of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon among other countries? no answer for that one, huh?

    let's see what the U.N. says. don't hold your breath!

  • muchiboy

    While Israel shares some of the more onerous characteristics of other human rights abusing states in the region the value of the "Israeli Left’s flagship publication, the daily newspaper Haaretz" is testament to Israeli society in tolerating Jewish dissent.Where such dissent is present in other abusive states the presses are bombed and the journalists killed or imprisoned.That said,Israeli society will not be fit to call itself a "liberal democracy" until the Human rights denied to the Palestinian People by Zionist occupiers are restored.True,the Jews have legitimate fears and concerns but in the light of continued Palestinian suffering cannot be used as an excuse for inaction or continued oppression and denial of the rights of others.muchiboy

    • WildJew

      What human rights in particular are denied to the 'Palestinians' (how do you know they are a "people" as opposed to an ad mixture of Arab immigrants by and large?) by "Zionist occupiers?" I am not denying "rights" are denied. I'm just asking.

      • MixMChess

        Don't bother asking the hard questions, Ronald Grant the Neo-Nazi won't answer. He only understands how to make Jews worldwide convenient scapegoats. He has a very strong lust for Jewish blood. It is quite frightening when you consider that he is a corrections officer in the Hamilton, Ontatio area.

        • Spirit_Of_1683

          If thats the case, its time his employers were told he's a Jew-hating Nazi. Or are they also Jew-hating Nazis as well?

    • seels4truth

      Muchiwuss: How many Jews are allowed to own homes in Arab countries? AbbAss swears no Jews (Israeli=Jew) will be allowed in his county while Arabs are allowed free access in Israel; even to be a part of the Government. You are ahateful bigot and deserve nothing but scorn. Go back to molesting your kids; your kind is not welcome.

      • Spirit_Of_1683

        If Naziboy gets his way, Jews won't be allowed to own homes in Canada either.

    • alan g

      Palestinian suffering and oppression are self-inflicted. They can’t even recognized the state of Israel. Even allah says to respect the people of the book. I guess they don’t take their god too seriously. What’s with that?

    • ObamaYoMoma

      Hey Muchiboy it has been observed that the more obsessed and totally consumed by rabid Jew hatred people are, the more oblivious to Islam and the threat it represents to freedom in the world those people are, which explains why you are so myopic and otherwise blind to reality. Indeed, it must suck terribly to be you dude.

      Anyway dude, can you please explain to us how at the same time you obsessively vilify and demonize Jews and Israel while also inciting hatred and violence towards them every chance you get, you can also ignore the fact that inside every Muhammadan country in the world where there is a sufficient Muhammadan population, which means most of them, women and non-Muhammadans are always systematically persecuted and often violently oppressed? Meanwhile, why do you only single out only Jews for your obsessive opprobrium, when Israeli Muhammadans citizens of Israel, on the other hand, share in all the same rights, freedom, and privileges as the Jewish citizens?

      Further, can you please explain how you regard Israel’s possession of Judea, Samaria, and the Golan Heights to be an illegal occupation when it is impossible for Israel to occupy land that it legally captured while in defense from what was not only an illegal war of aggression but also in itself an illegal war of conquest? Thus, how can the so-called Palestinians, which were created out of whole cloth in Moscow in 1964 by the Soviet KGB as a Soviet disinformation campaign, possibly have any rights to Judea, Samaria, and East Jerusalem? I mean there never was a Palestinian state before in history and indeed in any event Israel did not capture those territories from such an entity that in reality never existed before in history nonetheless.

      Not to mention that there is no law anywhere in the world that states a country must make a radical and nihilist group of people citizens. In fact, every other country in the world would rightfully expel such a radical and irredentist population of people from their own countries. Yet, for some reason, you hold Israel to a completely different set of standards than you hold the rest of the world, all the while that you also ignore the systematic persecution and often violent oppression of females and non-Muhammadans that takes place in practically ever Muhammadan country in the world, and indeed there are 57 of them and just one tiny Jewish state.

      Indeed, if you are not totally unhinged by obsessive Jew hatred, then please explain how?

    • MixMChess

      "Israeli society will not be fit to call itself a "liberal democracy" until the Human rights denied to the Palestinian People by Zionist occupiers are restored."

      Nope you are lying again Nazi-Boy Ronald Grant. Palestinians are responsible for their own suffering. Recall that in 2000 98% of the Palestinian's lived under the Palestinian Authority. During "Palestinian self-rule" the Palestinians saw a deteriorating standard of life, increased corruption, and a break down in the rule of law – all because they focused their efforts on killing Israelis rather than bettering their own situation.

      Ronald Grant, when will Palestinian Arabs take responsibility for their actions and apologize for their chronic rejectionism, the death and war and suffering they have inflicted on Israelis and on themselves?

  • muchiboy

    "If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it,” Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas told reporters in Ramallah on Saturday. And reiterated: “when a Palestinian state is established, it would have no Israeli presence[.]”

    I do not spend much time seeking out the rants or otherwise of Palestinian political figures.Mostly,my information is obtained from varied media sources,e.g.CBC,BBC,Globe and Mail,Observer,etc.and is as reasonable and objective when taken together as one can hope for.That being said,I would point out the use of "Israeli" vs Jewish presence in a future Palestinian state as visualized by the PA.Of course,the opinion expressed is incomplete and maybe misleading without the full context of the speech or article.muchiboy

    • WildJew

      Little doubt you know – there are those (properly) making the case – Hamas, not Fatah or Abbas – is the legitimately elected leadership of the Muslim-Arabs living in the land. The Bush administration insisted that Hamas be included on the 2006 ballot thinking Hamas would in no way win. It did win. Palestinians voted for Hamas and its explicit goal of annihilating the Jewish state. Fatah shares this goal as the "phased plan" for Israel's destruction. Phased destruction of the Jewish state is more palatable. That is why Bush and now the Obama administration do not recognize Hamas as the Palestinian's legitimate governing authority when it is.

    • stern

      sorry muchiboy, I appreciate how you're trying to make excuses for Abbas, but it doesn't wash. He may have used the term "Israeli" in this case, but he made his true feelings perfectly clear in the full quote of his statement to the Palestinian news agency when he said on August 4, 2010: "I'm willing to agree to a third party that would supervise the agreement, such as NATO forces, but I would not agree to having Jews among the NATO forces, or that there will live among us even a single Israeli on Palestinian land."

      I am also most impressed about how you are not bothered at all by the "rants or otherwise of Palestinian political figures". Presumably because that would mean opening your eyes to your own bigotry?

      Ah muchiboy, it's so very easy to read the "rants or otherwise " of Israelis, isn't it? Afer all, they are pounced upon by the world media – as you have noted – and it's so easy to form a one-sided view, as you have done. Heaven forbid you should challenge your own biases once in a while.

      • MixMChess

        Of course its important to point out that not only will any future state be Judenrein, but it will also be "free" of any gays, feminists, Christians, Hindus, Bahais, Buddhists… need I really go on?

        Why would anyone in their right mind actually advocate for the Palestinians knowing this awful result? The only answer I can come up with is their hatred for Jews trumps any other ideological concerns.

  • waterwillows

    munchiboy,

    The palestinian people certainly do impose suffering, but they actually don't do suffering.
    They make sure that is what others get.

  • muchiboy

    "Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas announced on Saturday that when a Palestinian state is established, it will have no Israelis in it.

    “We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it,” Abbas told reporters in Ramallah.

    "He was commenting on unconfirmed reports suggesting that the PA leadership might agree to the presence of the IDF in the West Bank after the establishment of a Palestinian state."

    Talk about "context".While the use of such methods e.g.out of context quotes by FPM may be seen as "sophisticated" it is hardly objective and may even be seen as devious.It is certainly not up to the standards I would expect from a world class journalistic website.But what's new?And as long as we recognize FPM for what it is,an anti-liberal pro Zionist public opinion maker and read it with a critical mind,the articles and posts are both useful and informative as a compliment to other perhaps more objective sources.muchiboy

    • jacob

      TO MUCHIBOY

      Your statemets are so foolish, outright stupid and biased, they do not
      deserve polemizing with you, as it will be equivalent to waste good
      gunpowder shooting on buzzards

    • MixMChess

      Context doesn't matter because we already know where Abbas stands on these issues. Speaking to the Palestinian youth parliament in 2009, Abbas declared his refusal to recognize the state of Israel: “Call yourselves what you want, but I will not accept it… The ‘Jewish State’… I will not accept it.” Abbas backed that statement again in September 2010, when he told members of the Hadash party it was an “unacceptable demand” that he recognize Israel as the Jewish state.

      Like Ahmadinejad, Abbas is also a Holocaust denier and wrote a thesis on the subject at University. Abbas allows the official PA media outlet to air programs where Palestinian academics teach that Auschwitz and Dachau “never existed.” The "Palestinian Ministry of Education produces schoolbooks which teach the history of World War II yet completely ignores the Holocaust and the extermination of six million Jews."

  • seels4truth

    Muchiwuss: Once again you prove how stupid you are. You hate Jews yet your entire focus is on Israel. Do you truly believe that preaching your lies to intelligent people who KNOW the truth will cause them to start hating Jews? We get it and we get you: You are an anti-Semitic fool and you want to see Israer killed off. Now go back to your rat hole and die.

  • jacob

    Only in Israel is such sad state of affairs allowed…

    In any Arab/ Muslim country, HAARETZ with all its staff would have circling the
    earth like another satellite long ago and academia summarily cleansed of all
    its staffs, instead of being allowed to poison the minds of most of its students…

    But then again, same perhaps as its "ally", good old USA maintains : STICKS
    AND STONES….

    And lets wait for the other shoe to fall or better yet, for the "smoking gun's
    smoke"…

    Trouble is, that most likely, when you' ll hear the other shoe fall or see/
    smell the gun's smoke, IT MIGHT BE TOO DAMNED LATE…..

  • muchiboy

    "What human rights in particular are denied.."

    Some of the most profound and important rights claimed by humans everywhere,WildJew, their birth right and right to their homeland.As a Jew and maybe a Zionist who cherishes a Jewish homeland and birth right,you should not have to ask this question.It doesn't indicate your ignorance but rather your arrogance,WildJew.Again,I would refer you to the Universal dictum,our Golden Rule.

    " to the 'Palestinians' (how do you know they are a "people" as opposed to an ad mixture of Arab immigrants by and large?) by "Zionist occupiers?" I am not denying "rights" are denied. I'm just asking."

    I have made this point several times here,that while there may not have been a historical Palestinian people prior to the re-creation of Israel in 1948,the occupation of Palestine by European Jews,the following Nakba,the wars,defeats,sufferings and miseries have made your "ad mixture of Arab immigrants by and large" into a people.Not unlike the Jewish people of the Diaspora,who despite world wide dispersal and inter- marriage and integration,are a people.Centuries of persecution culminating in the the Holocaust have contributed to the cohesion and identity of your people.Thus,despite your objections and weak denials,the Palestinians are for all intents and purposes a people.I see no good reason why there cannot be a Jewish Palestinian either.Regardless,few people other then Zionists with an obvious agenda deny the existence of the Palestinian people today and the right to their own Palestinian state,with or without Jews.To liken the Palestinians to say Canadians doesn't lessen their national identity or right to a homeland or recognition of their national interests.Some say Canadians (I am Canadian,WildJew)became a people and country in the trenches of WWI.Jews,Christians,Muslims,etc.fought and died in those same trenches.Really,denying the same for the Palestinians is both mean spirited and a barrier to any fair resolution to the Jewish/Palestinian conflict.muchiboy

    • stern

      muchiboy, there are times when I honestly feel like swearing at you. Just one phrase in your above diatribe has done that to me yet again. The phrase is "the occupation of Palestine by European Jews."
      This demonstrates with perfect clarity how effing ignorant you are, muchiboy – and, I believe, deliberately so. You have obviously never been to Israel, or you would know that more than 50% of the population is NOT made up of European Jews, but of Middle-Eastern Jews – ETHNICALLY CLEANSED FROM THEIR HOMES OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN ARAB COUNTRIES. They suffered their own "nakba", but with the major difference that Israel absorbed them, gave them new homes, built a country with them. While all the while, the Arab world, with its almost infinite space and riches, kept the poor Palestinians in bondage to use as a political pawn against Israel. And you, muchiboy, because of your undisguised and unrelenting Jew-hatred, are complicit in it. You may not see it in this life, but I truly believe that eventually, you will realize how wrong you have been. But then it will be too late.

      • stern

        muchiboy, I would like your views on the Palestinians imprisoned in refugee camps in Lebanon. They are not allowed to become Lebanese citizens, they are not allowed to work as doctors, lawyers, teachers and numerous other professions. Do you criticize Lebanon for denying these Palestinians their human rights? If not, why not?

    • WildJew

      Muchiboy, I do not argue against a Palestinian state in Israel on the basis that the Palestinians are not a people. I was simply asking you why you consider them a "People." I think it was not until the 1967 Six Day war and its aftermath that the Muslim-Arabs living in Israel claimed they were a people. Before that they were part of the Arab nation or part of Syria, etc. Did you know Jordan was part of the League of Nations Mandate for the Jewish National Homeland. Jordan was / is 75% of what was then called Palestine. But the British carved it ("transjordan, later Jordan) out of the Mandate for the Jewish National Homeland. Jordan is some 2/3 Palestinian. Why can't Jordan be the Palestinian state in your view?

    • WildJew

      We (the Jews) are a people because we believe God made us into a people. It's in the Torah and the prophets that we are a people. The nations have also recognized us as a people. You are a Canadian. At present I am an American. As a Canadian do you champion the cause of every displaced (expropriated) people? Do you, for example, champion the cause of American Indians and indigenous Canadian natives? Do you ask that the US return ancient lands to the Indian nations, such as the Cherokee nation or the Seminoles, the Sioux Indians, etc.? Do you urge that the United States return Texas and California to Mexico from whom it was taken by conquest? How about the Chechens? Do you demand Russia grant them self-determination and an independent state? The Kurds? Do you also demand they be given statehood? What about the Tibetans? Is it only the Palestinians whose cause you champion or do you champion the cause of other peoples?

      • Spirit_Of_1683

        Does he hell. The only thing the Hitler-worshipping Naziboy is interested in is the elimination of Judaism from the entire planet, just like his long-dead hero of 70 years ago.

    • ziontruth

      "I have made this point several times here,that while there may not have been a historical Palestinian people prior to the re-creation of Israel in 1948,the occupation of Palestine by European Jews,the following Nakba,the wars,defeats,sufferings and miseries have made your 'ad mixture of Arab immigrants by and large' into a people."

      You have made that point, whereas I have made mine, that negative facts (reaction to external events) do not a nation make; positive facts like a distinct language and culture are required. Otherwise every group of a hundred people or so could claim to be a nation and demand rights upon that claim, to the detriment of stability.

      "Not unlike the Jewish people of the Diaspora,who despite world wide dispersal and inter- marriage and integration,are a people.Centuries of persecution culminating in the the Holocaust have contributed to the cohesion and identity of your people."

      And you show just how much you know about Jewish identity.

      Jewish identity is not based on past persecution. What happened is historical, but not a basis for any kind of national identity. Indeed we see today that Jews who know only about past Jewish suffering are, HaShem guard us, disappearing inside their non-Jewish societies in droves. They have no strong identity to prevent that. For a strong identity, positive facts are needed.

      Jewish identity is based on the Jews' covenant with God; and from this, all the positive facts flow: language (Hebrew), calendar (the lunisolar calendar of Palestine, not the lunar or solar ones the Phakestinians use), festivals (again, oriented on Palestine), writings, ideals, and finally the fixed and absolute definition as to who is a Jew (born to a Jewish mother or having undergone Orthodox conversion).

      Jewish identity is not based on the Jews' painful history, and neither is Zionism (Jewish nationalism) based upon the same. Zionism is not about "redressing the grievances" of the Jewish nation; it's about coming back to our one and only home, booting any settler-colonial invaders out of it if that's what it takes.

    • ObamaYoMoma

      Some of the most profound and important rights claimed by humans everywhere,WildJew, their birth right and right to their homeland

      What birthright? If you study history, when the early Zionist Jews began returning to Palestine at the end of the 19th century and early 20th century, the land that comprises Israel today was largely abandoned because it consisted of malaria-infested swamps and barren deserts. Indeed, for all intents and purposes the land was barren and abandoned simply because the primitive and medieval Arabs during that time didn’t possess the technology to exploit that land.

      However, the returning Jews brought with them from the West modern knowledge, modern technology, and modern tools, which enabled them to make those malaria infested swamps and barren deserts bloom, and it was the prosperity created by the returning Jews with their modern knowledge, modern technology, and modern tools that inevitably created the conditions that soon began attracting Muhammadan immigrants from the surrounding regions to migrate to Palestine.

      Hence, it couldn’t be anymore obvious that you have been misled, as the Jews did not usurp anyone’s birthright, since the land that comprises Israel today was largely abandoned at the time of their return. In fact, the Jews had to buy the land from absentee landowners living in Egypt and Turkey at overly inflated prices. In addition, it was the prosperity created by the early returning Zionist Jews thanks to their modern knowledge, modern technology, and modern tools that soon started attracting migrating Arabs from surrounding territories, not the other way around.

      Thus, when you claim the Jews usurped the birthright of the Arabs it is clear that your ignorance’s have been exploited to the hilt by Muhammadan propagandists, no doubt because you already hated Jews with a passion and were already incredibly ignorant to begin with.

      Indeed, if Muhammadans are technological marvels, as you seem to absurdly believe, then what explains their primitive conditions in countries like Afghanistan or even in the surrounding countries? You have to be one of the most narrow-minded and gullible posters at FPM.

    • MixMChess

      "Some of the most profound and important rights claimed by humans everywhere, WildJew, their birth right and right to their homeland."

      Israel is not the homeland of the Palestinians and thus they have never had a birthright to the land.

      Recall, there was never an indigenous people or culture in the region outside of the Jews. Foreigners would settle the land because Muslim rulers wanted to populate it, because it was the holy land and drew the religious, and because of the shortage of labor. Throughout the Holy Land's history, foreign empires had overrun the region. In the 18th and 19th centuries, administrative neglect, civil disorder, poor agricultural techniques and the assaults of Bedouin tribes had led to massive instability and depopulation. Try reading any accounts of the region from the time (Writer Mark Twain, Count Constantine F. Volney, Francois-Rene de Chateaubriand, Explorer John Lewis Burckhardt, Alphonse de Lamartine, H.B. Tristam, Sir John William Dawson, Arieh L. Avneri, Sherif Hussein), they all describe the land as VACANT and devoid of people. I challenge you to produce any evidence to the contrary.

    • MixMChess

      "I have made this point several times here,that while there may not have been a historical Palestinian people prior to the re-creation of Israel in 1948"

      Exactly, and you have failed to prove that Palestinians have claims to the land that go back more than a few decades. Even the "European" Zionists settled the land before the so-called Palestinians arrived in the late 19th century. Before that Jews had history to the land going back thousands of years. When was there ever a stable permanent indigenous Palestinian population before 1948? 1935? 1921? 1914? 1903? 1881?

      • MixMChess

        "Really,denying the same for the Palestinians is both mean spirited and a barrier to any fair resolution to the Jewish/Palestinian conflict."

        You are lying again Ron Grant. When has Israel ever denied the Palestinians statehood? Did you forget the Oslo 1993 accords? What about in 2000 when Israel offered the Palis 98% of the W. Bank and Gaza and they walked away without even a COUNTER-OFFER. Why is that Nazi-boy? What about in 2005 when Israel withdrew from Gaza only to be thanked with a constant stream of rockets? What about now when the Israelis are trying to reach peace and Abbas himself refuses to recognize Israel?

        The Israelis have effectively surrendered their legitimate birthright to Judea and Samaria and graciously given it to the disgusting Palestinians. And the Palestinians have the sick audacity to still try to murder the Jews and generally treat the Jews like crap! When will the Palestinians ever be satisfied? When they have drank the blood of every last Jew as you wish to?

  • Spirit_Of_1683

    What makes the Israeli Hard Left think that they will be spared if the Jihadis and their Naziboy hangers-on get their wish and wipe Israel off the map? These are what Lenin called "useful idiots" because they're every bit as useful to their enemies as what they are useless to their own countrymen. They are insane self-haters who wish the destruction of their own way of life because of perceived sins. They are the sort who work to bring down their own civilizations when faced with an aggressor. Nearly every fallen civilization in history will have had its 'useful idiots' who weakened them internally, then once they'd been overrun, these traitors would have perished by the enemy sword along with the rest they had undermined. History repeats itself because man's own stupidity repeats itself.

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  • USMCSniper

    Self-hate arises in a Jew who takes so many of his values from a group with anti semetic values, learns to think of himself in its terms. Because Jews seem different or strange in their eyes, he comes to believe himself strange. Since the anti semites despise and look down on him, he begins to look down on himself, particularly on that which differentiates him. So, among self hating Jews it becomes truly a ploy to gain acceptance by the anti semites and not to look or support anything Jewish.

  • muchiboy

    "As a Canadian do you champion the cause of every displaced (expropriated) people? Do you, for example, champion the cause of American Indians and indigenous Canadian natives? Do you ask that the US return ancient lands to the Indian nations, such as the Cherokee nation or the Seminoles, the Sioux Indians, etc.? Do you urge that the United States return Texas and California to Mexico from whom it was taken by conquest?"

    Fair questions,WildJew.And my answers will not be totally satisfactory to either of us,nor others.The history of man is one of migration and struggle,occupation,ethnic cleanings,colonizations and genocide.From a modern perspective,both moral and political,there are historical wrongs that we may judged but cannot reverse. European policies and mistreatment of native Americans during occupation ,ethnic cleansing and colonization was wrong as judged today.Again,we can judge but not reverse those wrongs,but by admitting bad and immoral past policies we may be able to ameliorate somewhat the harmful sequelae of those policies.We do what we can.We try to make amends through legislation,land settlements,apologies,affirmative action,etc.The same may be said for other examples you cite.A profound distinction ,and there are others admittedly,between the occupation of the New World by Europeans(non Jews) and the occupation of Palestine by Europeans( Jews) is the denial to the Palestinians of their birth right and homeland.Again,it is a profound and telling distinction made the more disturbing and morally unconscionable because it occurred and is occurring still when the world and Jews should have known better.It is both tragic and ironic that Jews who were not marched into the showers at the death camps marched into Palestine to victimize another vulnerable people.Did you know that Palestinians refer to themselves as "the victims of victims".Does that not in itself tell you something about the heart of these people? Does it not show their potential and willingness to both acknowledge the others suffering and to forgive.muchiboy.

    • WildJew

      As you say, the "history of man is one of migration and struggle,occupation,ethnic cleanings,colonizations and genocide, etc. You are right. I have spent some time studying the conquest and the expropriation of American Indian tribes by white European colonialists and settlers. I think it is safe to say Israel's case is mild by comparison. Though European settlers did indeed justify Indian removal to the west on the basis of national security (Europeans would ally with hostile American Indian tribes), there were indeed tribes that did try to live in peace with their white neighbors; the Cherokee Indians in Georgia come to mind.

    • WildJew

      Nevertheless, I cannot say I support Americans returning land to their former occupants. I cannot say that would be the right thing to do. But there are major differences between America and Israel. Unlike the Jews (Israel) white Europeans had no historic connection to this land. For those of us who believe the Bible, the land of Israel is the only recorded piece of real estate on the face of the earth that was given by God exclusively to a particular people; to the Jews. To those of us who believe these promises in the Bible, we believe Israel is in possession of this land by right and not (as Churchill said) by sufferance. I am sorry Arabs and Muslims were displaced. As you say, this is the history of man. Israel has done more than most any other nation to try to redress what needed to be redressed. Only those who are filled with hatred of either Israel or the Jews cannot see this.

    • ziontruth

      "From a modern perspective,both moral and political,there are historical wrongs that we may judged but cannot reverse."

      It's funny how those 'historical wrongs that we may judge but cannot reverse' always happen coincide with those particular historical wrongs whose reversal would cost you, you personally, something.

      Hence, the American Left's demand that the "wrong of Zionist Colonialism" (in reality, the right of Jewish indigenous resettlement) be righted by making Palestine judenrein (God forbid), but when suggested they right their own wrongs by going back to Europe, all of a sudden it's "let bygones be bygones."

      Let no true Zionist be impressed by the moral-sounding language of either the Arab imperialists or their Marxist allies in the West; that language is nothing but a coating of sugar on the excrement of imperialism, exactly as Nazi Germany's rhetoric about "the oppressed Germans of the Sudetenland" was.

      "and the occupation of Palestine by Europeans( Jews)"

      Newsflash (though it will be ignored as usual by Muftiboy): the majority of Israeli Jews today are of Oriental extraction. And those Jews were at the forefront of the renewed Zionism from the outset (the aliyah of 1882: not only from Russia as most people know, but also from Yemen, which most people don't know, because the Marxists in charge of education can't let it get in the way of their narrative).

      "Did you know that Palestinians refer to themselves as 'the victims of victims'.Does that not in itself tell you something about the heart of these people?"

      It tells me they're skilled propagandists who know how to tug on the heartstrings of gullible Western audiences.

      • MixMChess

        "Did you know that Palestinians refer to themselves as 'the victims of victims'.Does that not in itself tell you something about the heart of these people?"

        This is particularly unsettling considering that the Palestinians themselves participated in the Holocaust. Remember it was the Grand Mufti who met with Hitler and his closest advisors in 1942 urging them to build death camps for the Jews in Israel. The Mufti himself personally recruited 20,000 Muslim SS soldiers to murder Jews in Eastern Europe.

        These same Palestinians still worship Hitler as an icon and a folk-hero. Hamas and Hezbollah do the roman salute as the goose-step down avenues named after "martyrs" who murdered Jewish children. Hamas calls for the worldwide extermination of Jews in its charter. The Palestinians are currently the only heirs to the Nazis and try to continue their legacy.

        • Spirit_Of_1683

          These same Palestinians still worship Hitler as an icon and a folk-hero.

          So does Naziboy Grant.

  • Raymond in DC

    The one consolation is that Ha'aretz has been losing money and readership for years. Like the once-dominant Labor Party and the even more left-wing Meretz, they have little support beyond the leftist elite. Eventually, those propping it up will tire of the financial drain. But one shouldn't ignore the damage they do in the meantime.

  • waterwillows

    munchiboy,

    No we do not ask the US to return land to the natives. But we also don't think the Jews have any genuine reason to 'return' land to anyone.
    So what? I don't think you have a point.

  • muchiboy

    "Jewish identity is based on the Jews' covenant with God;"

    We have a problem,Houston! I'm not a theist.muchiboy

    • WildJew

      It does not matter what you are, whether you are an atheist, agnostic, theist or other. The statement that our identity is based upon our covenant with God is a valid one. That is why Israel is or should be a part of every Jews' identity.

    • Spirit_Of_1683

      No, you're just a Jew-hating little naziboy troll who fantasises about leading them into the showers en masse. And it irks you so much that if you tried it, you'd be toast.

  • muchiboy

    "booting any settler-colonial invaders out of it if that's what it takes. "

    The problem with that kind of thinking,ziontruth,and it is not unlike the thinking of the Fundamentalist Islamist's (birds of a feather?),is it invites retribution and retaliation.It really belongs to another age,the ancient,biblical age that seems endemic to the region.Israel,it seems,must be dragged kicking and screaming,like your Muslim cousins,into modernity.All of your brutish actions only go to prove your failures as a modern,human rights respecting liberal democracy.When trusted with the opportunity to rule yourselves and others,to behave humanely among your neighbors,you failed miserably.Maybe in another thousand years. When the West is ready.muchiboy

    • ziontruth

      "The problem with that kind of thinking,ziontruth,and it is not unlike the thinking of the Fundamentalist Islamist's"

      Only difference being the Muslims want genocide (God forbid) of the Palestinians (=Jews) and not just mass expulsion. But who cares about tiny difference like that…

      "is it invites retribution and retaliation."

      Yeah, I wonder how it would be for us to invite retribution and retaliation from the Muslim imperialists? Better not rile them, they might do something violent. Not that they're doing or have ever done anything violent, of course.

      You're like all those peacenik dreamers who rush to the scene with their newbie scenarios and what-ifs, not knowing that we have already gone through all those; we're seasoned, we're not new to the levels our enemies can stoop to. We don't think anymore how things could get worse, but what we must do so as not be on their receiving end. And the Holocaust, though of course not being the basis of Palestinian (=Jewish) nationalism, has taught us one thing: We must do anything it takes to prevent it. Anything.

      (contd.)

    • ziontruth

      (contd.)

      "It really belongs to another age,the ancient,biblical age that seems endemic to the region.Israel,it seems,must be dragged kicking and screaming,like your Muslim cousins,into modernity."

      The way I see it, your so-called modernity is nothing but softness that makes you (the West, I mean) ripe for the picking by those ancient savages, the Muslims. Your unwillingness to employ cruel necessity temporarily (and I'm not even talking about genocide; just deport them all, that's all it takes!) will seal your future under the jackboot of shariah law. The Muslims have absolutely no respect for your niceties; they gloat at them, being for them a display of weakness.

      "All of your brutish actions only go to prove your failures as a modern,human rights respecting liberal democracy."

      I have no particular problem with democracy. Democracy is not the issue. The issue is you're an advocate of that failed Marxist paradigm of multiculturalism, which wishes for multiple nations and cultures to be gathered under the same political roof, a guarantee of strife if not bloodshed (God forbid), while I'm a staunch, committed, doctrinaire nationalist, believing in the right of every real nation to a life of safety and comfort in its own nation-state, safety and comfort guaranteed by maintaining national exclusivism within the nation's fixed, indigenous borders. The issue is realism versus pipe-dreams.

      "When trusted with the opportunity to rule yourselves and others,to behave humanely among your neighbors,you failed miserably."

      Judge and jury. Good thing you're not the executioner as well.

      • Spirit_Of_1683

        You cant rationalize with knuckleheaded Jew-hating Nazis like Naziboy. There's only one language these understand, and it is that of the knuckleduster.

  • stern

    nuchiboy, do you even read the replies I've posted? Scroll up and you will see that I have completely refuted your assertion that Israel was founded by European Jews escaping the Holocaust. It was not. It was founded more than 2,000 years ago, has been continually settled by Jews since then, and has since seen the return of Jews from all around the world. And contrary to what you say, more than 50% of its population today comprises the so-called "Eastern Jews". These were not European Jews, but Jews from the Middle East, who were forcibly uprooted from their homes in Arab countries. If you argue so strenuously for the rights of Palestinians, why do you ignore the Jews who were ethnically cleansed at the same time?

    ANSWER or shut the heck up, because all you're doing is repeating the same tired mantra ad nauseum and I, for one, am well and truly sick of it.

    • aspacia

      So am I stern. muchiboy lacks logic and a foundation in history.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    It’s kind of appalling as well that at the same time the Left condemns Israel and brands it as being a xenophobic pariah country, they overlook the fact that non-Muhammadans and females living in every Muhammadan country in the world with sufficient populations of Muhammadans are systematically persecuted and often violently oppressed, while in Israel, on the other hands, Israeli Muhammadans get to share in all the same freedoms and privileges as Israeli Jews. One wonders what could make those self-hating anti-Semitic delusional Leftists so myopic and dumb.

    Moreover, when you take a look around the world, we see that wherever the population density of bigoted anti-Semitic Jew haters is the greatest, the more oblivious to Islam and the threat it represents to freedom the population is. Hence, it is not an accident that the anti-Semitic European Union is on the fast track to becoming Islamized and subjugated dhimmis.

  • muchiboy

    "As you say, this is the history of man."

    Perhaps,WildJew,but man has made progress and will continue to do so.There is always hope that we can do better,despite our failings. We don't want a repeat of the Holocaust or other examples of man's inhumanity to man.It is not good enough to say "Never again".We need to learn the lessons that history has to teach us.
    Perhaps it is too early to hope that Jews would learn all the lessons the Holocaust has to offer.Perhaps I am asking far too much of the Jewish people.Perhaps they have suffered far too much,far too long.What is a mere sixty years after the evils of the Holocaust?Surely such a good,intelligent,capable people who have given humanity so much after suffering too much at our hands will in time take to heart the desperation and suffering of her Palestinian cousins.I don't know,WildJew.Maybe some other Christmas..muchiboy

    • stern

      you patronizing prig.

      • Spirit_Of_1683

        You should have left the letter 'r' out in prig.

    • ziontruth

      "Perhaps it is too early to hope that Jews would learn all the lessons the Holocaust has to offer."

      No, it's not too early, in fact it's too late, because we already did that. Thing is, the lessons we learned from the Holocaust aren't the perverse ones you think we should have learned.

      You would have liked us to learn capitulation to imperialist aggressors, just like Neville Chamberlain did. Acceptance of a false narrative, just like the world believed the fuhrer's demands began and ended with the fate of the Sudeten Germans.

      But, instead, we right-wing New Zionists learned that, when someone (be they the Nazis then or the Muslims now) threatens to wipe you off the face of the earth, you take them seriously. And we also learned you don't rely on any other nation's promises for your defense.

      Learning from history is important, but learning rightly from history is even more.

    • WildJew

      Man will have made progress when the world accepts that the land of Israel belongs to the Jews and to no one other than the Jews. Then the world will have made progress. Unfortunately I do not see this happening except at the cost of many millions of lives at the hands of Islam. When Islam possesses the necessary weapons and strength vis-a-vis the west to do terrible damage, we will see unprecedented savagery.

      Until the world recognizes our God-given right to this land, I see nothing but hardship for America and the rest of the nations that are trying to bully Israel into surrendering her land to those who will destroy her. You talk about Holocaust. I'm not predicting a Holocaust but I will predict this. If Israel is foolish enough to bow to American and international pressure to establish another Muslim state in Israel's heartland, in time we will see a slaughter of Jews by Muslims quite unlike anything we have witnessed heretofore. I feel that strongly about the threat Israel faces.

    • MixMChess

      Palestinians have been responsible for their own suffering. Despite this the gracious Jews still send millions of tons of aid to the Palestinians and Israelis continually offer them a state.

      When will the Palestinians recognize and apologize for the 80+ years of suffering they have inflicted upon the Jews and the world?

    • Spirit_Of_1683

      And walking, talking piles of dogcrap like yourself obviously thinks that being a Jew-hating fascist is 'progress', don't you, Hitler-worshipping knuckledragger.

  • muchiboy

    "Nevertheless, I cannot say I support Americans returning land to their former occupants."

    In Canada,we have settled numerous significant land claims.We have apologized to the victims of abuse in our forced residential institutions.We have affirmative action legislation,etc.Imperfect solutions,perhaps,to past wrongs.We didn't know better then,now maybe we do.Sure,most land can't be returned,in America or Canada,but treaties can be honored and our efforts must be towards including the native American into our respective societies as full citizens.As for Israel and the Palestinians,I will always lend my support for the right of Palestinians to their homeland and birth right as I do for the indigenous peoples of North and South America.It is simply the right and decent thing to do and is a measure of our humanity and our civilizations worthiness.. muchiboy

    • WildJew

      Land can be returned – the Lakotah Sioux Indians have been suing unsuccessfully in the US Supreme Court for example – but it will not be. Americans would never permit surrendering one inch of this great continent. Nor do I advocate that lands be returned. I do not support indigenous peoples' right to re-claim land in North America. As they say, "it is what it is." What you think is right and decent may not be what is right in decent. Only God knows what is right and decent in terms of the disposition of lands. But you say you haven't any use for what God (if there is even a God) might think or say about who owns the land. In my view, God has greatly blessed the American people with land and abundant resources, "in spite of" America's past mistakes. You cannot say America has not been greatly blessed.

    • WildJew

      These blessings however can change as the Americans try to take our land and give it to a people to whom it does not belong. In the book of Genesis, God told Abraham at the same time He gave to him and his descendants this land, "I will bless those who bless you and the one who curses you, I will curse." America, led by Barack Hussein Obama, is cursing Israel by attempting to take our land from us. America will not be blessed for this.

    • MixMChess

      "As for Israel and the Palestinians,I will always lend my support for the right of Palestinians to their homeland and birth right as I do for the indigenous peoples of North and South America."

      Palestinians are not indigenous to the land of Israel, only the Jews are. Maps and population statistics from the past thousand years prove this fact.

    • Spirit_Of_1683

      And Canada is the size of hundreds of Israels. If Israel were the size of the Vatican City, you'd expect it to give up land and its inhabitants to walk into the gas chambers, because you hate Jews with a passion and wish them exterminated as part of your evil fantasies.

  • waterwillows

    munchiboy,

    Thank goodness for some sense from you. Palestinians do have a right to their homeland. It is in Jordan. That's the place they should return to, except the muslims there don't want them. Nor do any other muslims in the ME want them.
    You need to get going on taking up the challenge of getting Jordan to take back their own people. Perhaps with some ongoing dealings with these muslims and the experience it will give, you may feel a little more sympathy for the Jews and their trials?

  • QSuzy

    What's wrong with this article is the following: 1. I approve of the rabbi's letter. Israeli Jews should not sell or rent to PLO Muslims because they are the enemy. Ditto for #2, Jews and PLO Muslims should not breed with each other because, according to Judaism, the child will be his mother's religion and according to Islam, he will be his father's religion. So this is another war waiting to happen before the birth of their children. Hornik should have advocated both the rabbi's letter and the rally.

    Should American Jews, Christians and seculars rent, sell or breed with Muslim al-qaeda's? Of course not……Muslim al-qaedas are the Enemy, same enemy as Muslim PLO's. What doesn't Hornik understand about that?

    • WildJew

      You sure don't mince words. You know exactly where you stand. David Hornik is a moderate to slightly right of center politically. It seems to me David tends toward diplomacy and conciliation as opposed to confrontation. Maybe he would dispute my characterization.

      • QSuzy

        I think Hornik is a liberal. He's probably not as far left as Ha'aretz but he seems to be closer to them than to the Israeli nationalists who love Israel and know there is no diplomacy or conciliation with the Muslim enemy.

        • WildJew

          Maybe you will convince him to reexamine his position vis-a-vis the enemy.

          • QSuzy

            LOL……maybe so.

  • david elder

    Intellectual elites often display this type of 'self-hatred.' Actually it is self-regard shared with their peers, it is those outside their peer group that they disdain. Elites think they understand the 'root causes' of problems and can readily cure them. Just as Chamberlain understood Hitler, and FDR understood Stalin …

  • muchiboy

    "And we also learned you don't rely on any other nation's promises for your defense."

    And just where do you think you,ziontruth,or your Jewish friends and family,would be if "other nation's",including mine,had stood by while Nazi Germany marched unopposed exterminating this people or that people.Try that sentiment at your town or cities next Veterans Day Ceremony.You have a short memory,my friend.muchiboy

    • stern

      gee muchiboy, so the only reason the Brits, the Yanks, the French, the Poles, the Russians and everyone else fought the Nazis was to save the Jews? Yeah, right! But then I guess if you revise Middle East history, why stop there. You may as well go all the way and rewrite European and world history too.

    • Spirit_Of_1683

      And just where do you think you,ziontruth,or your Jewish friends and family,would be if "other nation's",including mine,had stood by while Nazi Germany marched unopposed exterminating this people or that people.

      And you felt ashamed of your country as you typed that, didn't you Naziboy?

  • muchiboy

    "…you can also ignore the fact that inside every Muhammadan country in the world where there is a sufficient Muhammadan population, which means most of them, women and non-Muhammadans are always systematically persecuted and often violently oppressed? Meanwhile, why do you only single out only Jews.."

    I am an anti-Zionist,pure and simple.The evils of Fundamental Islam and the despotic nature of certain Islamic states while of concern is not one of my chosen causes.When Jews make peace with the Palestinians,maybe then I can chose another cause,like helping dogs in Muslim countries.Other then that,I have little interest in Islam.It is almost alien to me,likely because of my ignorance of the religion.Regardless,there are plenty of others,liberal and conservative alike,western liberal democracy and NGO,who are critical of these regimes,with my blessing and sometimes support.muchiboy

    • stern

      So you ignore everything that drives the Palestinians to seek the destruction of Israel because that may just excuse things like checkpoints, security barriers and – yes – defensive military maneuvers, purely and simply because you have "chosen" to hate the Jews. And don't try and excuse yourself by saying you hate Zionism, not Jews. What you engage in clearly meets the 3D definition of anti-Semitism. At least you admit it.

  • stern

    nuchiboy, clearly you feel horribly guilty about the time you spent fighting for racist Rhodesia – and you displace you guilt onto the entire Jewish people. It obviously makes you feel better about your own sordid past to find someone else you can turn into the boogie man. Good thing Canada has national health care, isn't it? Won't cost you anything to get yourself cured of your hatred.

    • Spirit_Of_1683

      Naziboy will only be cured of his hatred of Jews when he's placed in his casket.

  • muchiboy

    "…you can also ignore the fact that inside every Muhammadan country in the world where there is a sufficient Muhammadan population, which means most of them, women and non-Muhammadans are always systematically persecuted and often violently oppressed? Meanwhile, why do you only single out only Jews.."

    I am an anti-Zionist,pure and simple.The evils of Fundamental Islam and the despotic nature of certain Islamic states while of concern is not one of my chosen causes.When Jews make peace with the Palestinians,maybe then I can chose another cause,like helping dogs in Muslim countries.Other then that,I have little interest in Islam.It is almost alien to me,likely because of my ignorance of the religion.Regardless,there are plenty of others,liberal and conservative alike,western liberal democracy and NGO,who are critical of these regimes,with my blessing and sometimes support.muchiboy

    "Further, can you please explain how you regard Israel’s possession of Judea, Samaria, and the Golan Heights to be an illegal occupation when it is impossible for Israel to occupy land that it legally captured while in defense from what was not only an illegal war of aggression but also in itself an illegal war of conquest?"

    Firstly,I believe the re-creation of Israel was morally unconscionable,even with the blessing of the UN.I support those who do not recognize Israel.Regardless,Israel is a fact on the ground and we must accept that as a shameful reality.Furthermore,I believe the failure of Israel to recognize the right of return of the Palestinian refugees and their dependents is both illegal and immoral.The land settled by Israel after1948 is recognized by the UN as occupied territory and as such illegal.One might refer to the status of E.Jerusalem here( unilateral annexation of territory conquered during war, even in defensive conquest, is prohibited by customary and conventional international law.).

    "Not to mention that there is no law anywhere in the world that states a country must make a radical and nihilist group of people citizens. In fact, every other country in the world would rightfully expel such a radical and irredentist population of people from their own countries."

    Well,you can't say you didn't try,and you succeeded,more or less.I think it is called "ethnic cleansing" in some circles.muchiboy

    • WildJew

      Muchiboy: "Firstly,I believe the re-creation of Israel was morally unconscionable…..

      Muchiboy: "……The evils of…..Islam and the despotic nature of certain Islamic states while of concern is not one of my chosen causes…..I have little interest in Islam. It is almost alien to me, likely because of my ignorance of the religion…."

      Your deliberate ignorance and one-sidedness on this conflict is also morally unconscionable.

    • MixMChess

      "I am an anti-Zionist,pure and simple."

      Read: You only hate Jews. If you actually cared about the Palestinians you would be furious with the Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese. The fact that you only reserve your criticism of Israel speaks volumes, even more so than your willful ignorance of the facts behind the conflict.

      "When Jews make peace with the Palestinians,maybe then I can chose another cause,like helping dogs in Muslim countries."

      Are you seriously this stupid? Please answer because I really need to know. The Jews offered peace and a state to the Palestinians in 2000 and it was the PALESTINIANS WHO REJECTED IT. When will the Palestinians stop the hatred and make peace with the Jews? When will the Palestinians accept their own state side by side with Israel instead of focusing on murdering Israeli children?

    • MixMChess

      "Furthermore,I believe the failure of Israel to recognize the right of return of the Palestinian refugees and their dependents is both illegal and immoral."

      No it is not illegal or immoral. The Palestinians left on their own accord Israel has no moral or legal obligation to extend citizenship to them. Especially considering that they are population which seeks to perpetrate violence and destroy Israel from within.

      "The land settled by Israel after1948 is recognized by the UN as occupied territory and as such illegal."

      What are you talking about? The UN has never said that any territories occupied by Israel after 1948 are "illegal." Do you even know the laws of occupation? You are a racist corrections officer NOT an international jurist. International Law clearly states that land acquired in a defensive war can be occupied until a final settlement between the belligerent is agreed upon. In fact UN resolution 242 states that a defending country (Israel) that repels an attack may acquire territory in the process. Thus, aggressors have a lot to lose because they would lose territory as a consequence of defeat. Further, The resolution does not make Israeli withdrawal a prerequisite for Arab action. Moreover, it does not say Israel must withdraw from “all the” territories occupied after the Six-Day War." 242 recognized that some land would need to be annexed by Israel for security concerns.

      "One might refer to the status of E.Jerusalem here( unilateral annexation of territory conquered during war, even in defensive conquest, is prohibited by customary and conventional international law.)."

      No, you are lying about International law. Seriously, did you just make that up or pull it out of your behind? International jus cogens and UN resolutions (such as 242) clearly state that annexation of territory is allowed during a defensive war.

      Professor Julius Stone of Hastings College of the Law has written that there is no international rule of law that precludes Israel from annexing any territory which it is lawfully occupying as a result of a defensive war.

      Funny that you should even mention E. Jerusalem considering it has always been primarily Jewish and the only time it wasn't was from 1948-1967 when Jordan "illegally occupied" it.

      • WildJew

        You wrote: "UN resolution 242 states that a defending country (Israel) that repels an attack may acquire territory in the process…."

        I do not believe the resolution itself states this. Esteemed jurists such as the one you cite above, I believe, have written in the context of the resolution, which was pushed forward in the United Nations largely by the United States.

        Clearly the United States itself can be charged with flagrant hypocrisy by means of a statement inserted in the preamble referring to "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war." This is clearly aimed at Israel, the victim of Muslim-Arab aggression.

        When in fact, the acquisition of territory by war, is the history of North America, whereby white European interlopers conquered and expropriated American Indian and Mexican lands by the aggressive use of force.

    • Spirit_Of_1683

      If anyone wants to see the mindset of a crazy-paved Jew-hating little Hitler, they only need read Naziboy's offerings here. Had Hitler been alive today, he could have created a successor to Mein Kampf simply by copying and pasting all of Naziboy's hateful Jew-baiting posts into a Word document.

  • muchiboy

    "gee muchiboy, so the only reason the Brits, the Yanks, the French, the Poles, the Russians and everyone else fought the Nazis was to save the Jews?"

    No,but it was a good enough reason.And I think at every Remembrance Day ceremony in Canada Jews lay a wreath to honor those who died for our beliefs and values at threat from evil.And yes,we could have done more,saved more,had we known.We weren't faultless,stern. muchiboy

    • Spirit_Of_1683

      Not only are you a tinpot Nazi, you are also a liar in the Goebbels-mode to boot as well.

  • muchiboy

    ●"The first D is the test of demonization.Whether it came in the theological form of a collective accusation of deicide or in the literary depiction of Shakespeare's Shylock, Jews were demonized for centuries as the embodiment of evil. Therefore, today we must be wary of whether the Jewish state is being demonized by having its actions blown out of all sensible proportion. For example, the comparisons of Israelis to Nazis and of the Palestinian refugee camps to Auschwitz – comparisons heard practically every day within the "enlightened" quarters of Europe – can only be considered anti-Semitic. Those who draw such analogies either do not know anything about Nazi Germany or, more plausibly, are deliberately trying to paint modern-day Israel as the embodiment of evil".

    I hold that the occupation of Palestine by European Jews and the displacement of near equal numbers of Palestinians together with the denial of their right of return and birth right constitutes a crime against humanity and the Palestinian people and as such an evil.The evil was a result of Zionism.How it compares to the actions of Nazism and the death camps can perhaps best be judged by the victims themselves.Whether the Palestinian Nakba places a far second or a distant third or agonizing twelfth in no way distracts ,diminishes nor minimizes the severity or gravity of the crime or offense,if that be your objective or agenda. muchiboy

    • stern

      muchiboy, what about the hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled – often violently and almost always without anything more than the clothes on their backs – from Arab countries? You refuse to answer me on that point because it's just too damn inconvenient for you. Under any other circumstances, when similar population exchanges have occurred (think of the Sudentland), the world has accepted it and called it a wash. Why not in the Middle East?

      Also, as I keep pointing out to you, "Palestine" was not "occupied" by European Jews .Firstly, it was settled – long before the war and the Holocaust – by Jews who came to a malaria-infested desert and made it bloom. It was only after the war that a rag tag band of survivors was finally allowed into the country, just in time to help save it from the attack of 5 Arab armies bent on destroying it and driving every last Jew into the sea. And after that, hundreds of thousands of "east Jews" were absorbed as they arrived as refugees. Israel took care of the Jewish refugees, without any help from the world. Why do you still hold Israel responsible for the Palestinian refugees as well?

      I know the answer. Do you?

    • MixMChess

      "I hold that the occupation of Palestine by European Jews and the displacement of near equal numbers of Palestinians together with the denial of their right of return and birth right constitutes a crime against humanity and the Palestinian people and as such an evil."

      I hold that you're an idiot and a liar. Jews cannot occupy their own land and the Palestinians uprooted and displaced themselves. Even anti-Israel new historian Benny Morrison has admitted as much. Palestinians were never an indigenous population to the region and as such have no birthright to the land, their homeland is in surrounding Arab countries.

      BTW, I love that you get to decide what is and what isn't a crime against humanity and what is evil. Who can argue with that when the definition is entirely subjective? Now please go back to your bottle of booze and leave the rest of us alone.

      • Spirit_Of_1683

        Naziboy isn't an idiot for the same reason that Hitler and Goebbels weren't idiots. Just like them, Naziboy's an evil knuckledragging Nazi and a liar who demonizes and dehumanizes Jews. He doesn't hold the views of an idiot but of a puerile and rabid antisemite who sees the Final Solution as the only solution. In other words, he's not idiotic but evil.

  • waterwillows

    muchiboy,

    You say you have not much interest in Islam? Your major concern with them is the plight of dogs? You could have mis-judged yourself.
    Because you do rote just wonderfully. You could be a shining example in any learn by rote muslim mosque. Maybe there is more of the muslim in you that you care to admit?
    Repetition is what scores the high marks and from reading your blogs, I'd say you would be an honor student.

    • Spirit_Of_1683

      Your major concern with them is the plight of dogs?

      Now that is pretty revealing about Naziboy. To him, the plight of dogs comes before the plight of Jews or anyone else at the hands of Jihadis. Hitler himself was a dog lover, but that didn't prevent him from wiping out six million Jews at his behest. To Naziboy Grant, that figure was at least 10 million less than the desired one.

  • muchiboy

    ● The second D is the test of double standards. For thousands of years a clear sign of anti-Semitism was treating Jews differently than other peoples, from the discriminatory laws many nations enacted against them to the tendency to judge their behavior by a different yardstick. Similarly, today we must ask whether criticism of Israel is being applied selectively. In other words, do similar policies by other governments engender the same criticism, or is there a double standard at work? It is anti-Semitism, for instance, when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while tried and true abusers like China, Iran, Cuba, and Syria are ignored. Likewise, it is anti-Semitism when Israel's Magen David Adom, alone among the world's ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross.

    One should be able to criticize any nations unconscionable behavior or policies independent of any other nations bad behavior.That being said,I would have to agree that it is unacceptable to systemically direct criticism at one state while ignoring similar behavior elsewhere.Bad behavior is bad behavior regardless where it occurs.However,we may rightly hold one state to a higher standard then another.We do expect more of the western liberal democracies then some despotic third world countries.This doesn't mean we value life or rights any less in the third world,rather we have an expectation of better behavior from e.g.America,based on rule of law,customary behavior and morality,etc.As for Israeli behavior,Israel,rightly or wrongly,holds itself out as a bastion of western values,much as Apartheid South Africa or white ruled Rhodesia once did.Furthermore,it would be absurd to expect a Quid pro quo approach with every criticism of a particular country.The point made is valid,but there may be exceptions and any accusations need be made and examined on a case by case basis.
    As for my particular criticism of Israel,Israeli crimes against the Palestinians is nearly unique and a result of western support for occupation,ethnic cleansing and colonization at a time when the UN,western liberal democracies and Jews should have known better.And it has persisted too long.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "However,we may rightly hold one state to a higher standard then another.We do expect more of the western liberal democracies then some despotic third world countries."

      I am not going to debate the philosophy behind the soundness of this argument or not…. we can't all be smart enough to become a Corrections Officer. The real point is that even among Western democracies Israel is held to a different and plainly unfair standard. That is clear antisemitism no matter how you try to look at it.

      "As for my particular criticism of Israel,Israeli crimes against the Palestinians is nearly unique and a result of western support for occupation,ethnic cleansing and colonization at a time when the UN,western liberal democracies and Jews should have known better.And it has persisted too long."

      Nope you are lying and defaming Israel again. Israel has no committed any crimes against Palestinians or engaged in any ethnic cleansing. Just quit with the rhetoric already, we are all sick of your insipid ramblings. Get this through your stupid thick skull, the facts don't support any of your alleged grievances against Israel. Why don't you get upset about Jordan's denial of Palestinian statehood or the very real genocide they committed against the Palestinians during Black September? Why is your criticism reserved only for the Jews?

    • WildJew

      You wrote: "As for Israeli behavior, Israel, rightly or wrongly, holds itself out as a bastion of western values….."

      You may be correct in this statement. If it is the case, I disagree with Israel or with Israel's government on this point. Israel should hold itself out as a bastion of Torah values — I am speaking of the written law of Moses. Where "Western values" and Torah values conflict, Torah values should supersede Western values.

  • muchiboy

    "● The third D is the test of deligitimation. In the past, anti-Semites tried to deny the legitimacy of the Jewish religion, the Jewish people, or both. Today, they are trying to deny the legitimacy of the Jewish state, presenting it, among other things, as the last vestige of colonialism. While criticism of an Israeli policy may not be anti-Semitic, the denial of Israel's right to exist is always anti-Semitic. If other peoples have a right to live securely in their homelands, then the Jewish people have a right to live securely in their homeland."

    With respect,I reject the authors final point or criterion.It is merely an assertion or two.There is no a prior reason why every or any people deserve a national home,and certainly not at the expense of another people.Prior to the re-creation of Israel,there were Nordic Jews,Moroccan Jews,German and French Jews,Ethiopian Jews,Iranian Jews,Palestinian Jews,etc.While there are no good,valid reasons for hating Jews,there are good,valid reasons to object to the existence of a Zionist state.The argument will be around until the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is settled fairly.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "There is no a prior reason why every or any people deserve a national home,and certainly not at the expense of another people."

      Fine, by that logic the Palestinians do not deserve a homeland in Jewish Israel at the expense of Israelis. Palestinians have no unified culture or ties to the land of Israel, only other Arab states from which they originally came.

  • muchiboy

    "muchiboy, what about the hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled – often violently and almost always without anything more than the clothes on their backs – from Arab countries? You refuse to answer me on that point because it's just too damn inconvenient for you. Under any other circumstances, when similar population exchanges have occurred (think of the Sudentland), the world has accepted it and called it a wash. Why not in the Middle East?"

    I have not done any research on the movements of these Jews to Israel.I did hear a documentary the other night about Moroccan Jews and how their Arab neighbors both missed and still cared for their properties.I will have to educate myself here.
    As to population exchanges,it is an admission of both or either the right of might or the failure of our humanity or diplomacy.It is cruel and not always necessary.In the case of Israel and the Palestinians,there are more just alternatives.Why do the most unfair,unjust and most cruel options be given such prominence.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "I have not done any research on the movements of these Jews to Israel"

      Of course you haven't done any research on the movement of Jews to Israel. And why would you? Goodness forbid you actually know the history of the region when you would rather be blinded to the truth and facts. If you actually studied the history of the land it would crush your entire worldview and show that Jewish rights to the land constantly and continually trump those of the Palestinians.

      Get a clue, we are tired of your ad nauseum rhetoric. Go play in traffic you stupid Neo-Nazi rubbish.

  • muchiboy

    "Why do you still hold Israel responsible for the Palestinian refugees as well?"

    Isn't it obvious,stern?By definition,Palestinian refugees are natives of Palestine fleeing their homeland and war.Like any refugees,they have a right of return.Oh,not a God given right,like the Jews,just a Human right.muchiboy

    • stern

      Actually muchiboy, no refugees anywhere have ever claimed a "right of return". No refugees anywhere have ever passed on their refugee status to the following generations. Every refugee population in history has been resettled in the places to which they fled – except the Palestinians. So yes, you do need to educate yourself, in many ways.

      Start by asking why every refugee in the world falls under UNHRC, which has successfully resettled them – and only the Palestinians have their very own UN organization, UNWRA, which owes its own continued existence to the continued plight of the Palestinians. Seem like a vested interest here, no?

      then ask yourself what the Arab countries that have played host to the Palestinian refugees have to gain by maintaining that refugee status? Remember, these are the countries that promised to wipe Israel off the map. Another vested interest in maintaining the plight of the Palestinians.

      Take a look at the difference between Palestinian refugees and every refugee population in history. The only thing the Palestinians have that nobody else has is the fat that they were displaced by the creation of a Jewish state. Now consider this. Who would stand to gain the most by a solution to the Palestinian plight? If you answer the Palestinians, then ask yourself why they keep saying no to every offer Israel makes to them.

      It's a simple fact, muchiboy, that the one entity that would gain the most from a peaceful settlement is Israel! And that's why Israel keeps trying to reach an agreement – and it's the very same reason why the Palestinians keep saying no.

      Finally, muchiboy, ask yourself what your own true motivation is for your focus on the Palestinians. To the rest of us, it's pretty obvious.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    I am an anti-Zionist,pure and simple.The evils of Fundamental Islam and the despotic nature of certain Islamic states while of concern is not one of my chosen causes.

    In other words, you are an admitted obsessive Jew hating bigot, because that’s what anti-Zionists are, except they try to hide behind the cloak of anti-Zionism, when anti-Zionism is nothing but a cloak for hiding Jew hating. Of course, you aren’t saying anything that the rest of us didn’t know already.

    Jews make peace with the Palestinians,maybe then I can chose another cause,like helping dogs in Muslim countries.

    How can Jews make peace with so-called Palestinians, when the so-called Palestinians sole purpose is to wage jihad against Jews per the tenets of Islam until such time as the final assault can come? In other words, you are so obsessed with Jew hatred, which is the sole reason why you spend an inordinate amount of time on here vilifying and demonizing Jews while also inciting hatred and violence against them at the same time, that you are also completely oblivious to the fact that exactly like Jews, you are also a target of the very same jihad being waged against the Jews. In fact, you idolize Muhammadans exactly because they have something in common with you in that they are as obsessed with hating Jews as much as you are. Yet, you are so obsessed with hating Jews that you are also totally oblivious to the fact that Muhammadans also hate your guts as well.

    Not only that, but at the same time you vilify Jews to feed your unhinged obsession, you totally ignore the fact that in every Muhammadan country in the world where there are sufficient Muhammadans that non-Muhammadans and females without exception are always systematically persecuted and often violently oppressed. Meanwhile, the version of Israel’s history you’ve swallowed is a total and complete fiction and demonstrates that you are not only totally obsessed with hating Jews, but that you are also incredibly dumb and easy to manipulate as well.

    Other then that,I have little interest in Islam.It is almost alien to me,likely because of my ignorance of the religion.

    Has it ever occurred to you that if you took the time to study and learn Islam that you would not hate Jews? I mean you are so completely obsessed with hating Jews that the Muhammadans have been able to play you like a cheap and warn out piano. Indeed, if someone were able to manipulate me and exploit my ignorance’s so badly, I’d be pissed off about it as hell. Or is it you like being a useful idiot and a fool for Islam?

    Nevertheless, if you weren’t completely ignorant of Islam maybe you would know already that Islam isn’t a religion, but instead a militant theo-political totalitarian ideology that seeks to subjugate the world into totalitarianism via the imposition of Sharia, and once they subjugate Israel, they are coming after you, but you are too dumb to know it. Indeed, don’t believe me, take a look inside every Muhammadan country and tell me what you see! Do you see freedom like you see in the West? No, you see only totalitarianism and harsh repression.

    Regardless,there are plenty of others,liberal and conservative alike,western liberal democracy and NGO,who are critical of these regimes,with my blessing and sometimes support.Muchiboy

    You can point to all the other losers you want, but I’m not talking about them; instead I’m talking about you, and the fact that they are also obsessed Jew haters doesn’t make it right. Why are you so immune to the truth and so obsessed with the hating of Jews at the same time? I mean do you enjoy being a useful idiot? You must, just look at all the damn time you spend over here feeding your obsession.

    Meanwhile, the same people that target the Israelis are also targeting you, yet you are too stupid and obsessed with Jews hating to ever understand that, after all they are obsessed with Jew hating as much as you, except they don’t only hate Jews unlike you. Indeed, the people that are the most oblivious about the threat to freedom in the world that Islam represents are the same exact people that are the most obsessed with hating Jews. Yet, that obsessive Jew hating isn’t going to do anything to alleviate that threat, as they are coming after you too. In your case, I hope they get you, because you deserve to be a subjugated dhimmi.

  • muchiboy

    "it was an “unacceptable demand” that he recognize Israel as the Jewish state. "

    Unacceptable demand?That is putting it mildly,MixMChess.It is no less then shameful to demand of the occupied that they recognize and accept the occupier of their homeland,the denier of their birth right,and the ethnic cleanser of their people.muchiboy

  • muchiboy

    "Abbas is also a Holocaust denier"

    As you are a Nakba denier,MixMChess,with all that entails?
    While I have to suspect the motives of the Holocaust denier,and understand that even some Jews are Holocaust deniers,I have to say that Jews have given the Palestinian people little reason to love them.since the re-creation of the Zionist state.That may be motive enough for his denial.Doesn't make it right,just easier to understand.Stupidity doesn't know any national boundaries.And unacceptable in a leader.If true,I am disappointed in the Palestinian leadership.This would represent a huge obstacle to peace if true.Not that Palestinian leaders in the past have been particularly effective in their roles.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "As you are a Nakba denier,MixMChess,with all that entails?"

      Nakba roughly translates to the "disaster" or "catastrophe" – the Palestinians describe Israel's very existence as a catastrophe. So YES, I am a PROUD NAKBA denier.

      There is absolutely no comparing the Holocaust with the so-called "Nakba." The Holocaust saw the grand-scale murder and genocide of over 6 million Jews. The so-called "Nakba" saw Israel defend itself against another extermination at the hands of hundreds of thousands of xenophobic and antisemetic Arabs.

      Remember, Israel did not create the refugee problem. Arab policies did. Had Arab leaders accepted the UN Partition Resolution instead of going to war, there would have been a Palestinian state and no refugees.

    • MixMChess

      "I have to say that Jews have given the Palestinian people little reason to love them.since the re-creation of the Zionist state."

      Oh really, the poor pathetic Palestinians don't feel loved? Ok…. so they can return the millions of tons in aid Israel provided them. They can also return the millions of dollars in aid that Israel provides to them. They can return Israeli technology that helps their farms and olive orchards. They can return the land they stole from the Jews in ancient Jewish Judea and Samaria. While their at it, can they also return to life the thousands of Israeli children they have murdered in their genocide against the Jews for the past hundred years…

      "This would represent a huge obstacle to peace if true."

      What do you mean IF TRUE? You truly are willfully blind to anything that would upset your morally repugnant world view. You can download Abbas's Holocaust Denial dissertation online. Go to youtube or memri.org and download Palestinian media that is rife with antisemitism and Holocaust denial. Try downloading Palestinian schoolbooks that make no mention of the Holocaust or deny it all together. Shame on you.

  • muchiboy

    "they all describe the land as VACANT and devoid of people. I challenge you to produce any evidence to the contrary. "

    To believe the region as vacant of Palestinian Arabs is obviously in the occupiers best interest,MixMChess.You really challenge your own credibility with this claim.I have heard similar types of claims from occupiers and colonizers on other continents.Regardless,it is a matter for Arab or other reputable historians to debate.I have on occasion tried googling the matter with mixed results.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "Regardless,it is a matter for Arab or other reputable historians to debate."

      Ok fine, so shut up about it. We are all sick of your trolling and defamatory rhetoric.

  • muchiboy

    "If you actually cared about the Palestinians you would be furious with the Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese."

    Maybe I should be,MixMChess.But It doesn't put Israel in very good company.And what's new anyway,the vulnerable,the stateless have always been between a rock and a hard place.Besides,I'm sure Israel plays the regional game as well if not better then the Syrians and Lebanese.And that being said,the occupiers of Palestine were the Jewish Diaspora,not the Syrians or Lebanese.muchiboy

  • muchiboy

    "If you actually cared about the Palestinians you would be furious with the Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese."

    Maybe I should be,MixMChess.But It doesn't put Israel in very good company.And what's new anyway,the vulnerable,the stateless have always been between a rock and a hard place.Besides,I'm sure Israel plays the regional game as well if not better then the Syrians and Lebanese.And that being said,the occupiers of Palestine were the Jewish Diaspora,not the Syrians or Lebanese.muchiboy

  • muchiboy

    "If you actually cared about the Palestinians you would be furious with the Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese."

    Maybe I should be,MixMChess.But It doesn't put Israel in very good company.And what's new anyway,the vulnerable,the stateless have always been between a rock and a hard place.Besides,I'm sure Israel plays the regional game as well if not better then the Syrians and Lebanese.And that being said,the occupiers of Palestine were the Jewish Diaspora,not the Syrians or Lebanese.muchiboy

  • muchiboy

    "If you actually cared about the Palestinians you would be furious with the Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese."

    Maybe I should be,MixMChess.But It doesn't put Israel in very good company.And what's new anyway,the vulnerable,the stateless have always been between a rock and a hard place.Besides,I'm sure Israel plays the regional game as well if not better then the Syrians and Lebanese.And that being said,the occupiers of Palestine were the Jewish Diaspora,not the Syrians or Lebanese.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "I'm sure Israel plays the regional game as well if not better then the Syrians and Lebanese."

      What regional game? Tic-Tac-Toe? Monopoly? Clue? Mystery Date? Do you even know what you're talking about? What is this elusive game you refer to?

      "the occupiers of Palestine were the Jewish Diaspora,not the Syrians or Lebanese.muchiboy."

      Wrong, go look at my most recent post, Jews settled vacant and uninhabitated land. Also you are lying to protect the Syrians and Jordanians. The original Palestine Mandate gave all of Jordan to the Arabs until it was illegally occupied by the Hashemite Kingdom and refused to grant Palestinians entry or citizenship. Over 75% of Jordan's population is Palestinian and they are treated like crap, but of course it only matters if you can lie and blame suffering on the Jews.

  • muchiboy

    "One might refer to the status of E.Jerusalem here( unilateral annexation of territory conquered during war, even in defensive conquest, is prohibited by customary and conventional international law.)."

    "Seriously, did you just make that up or pull it out of your behind?"

    Yes,I should have quoted the source.Thought I bookmarked it.If I did,I will post it,MixMChess.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      Ronald Grant, need I remind you that you are a Hamilton Ontario Neo-Nazi Corrections officer, not a international jurist. Don't try to pretend you are a lawyer or you might just get owned (or as some like to say pwned). Of course, I am always happy to make you look like a complete idiot.

  • muchiboy

    "If anyone wants to see the mindset of a crazy-paved Jew-hating little Hitler, they only need read Naziboy's offerings here."

    Whew! It's getting hot in here,Spirit of 1683.Nothing like being put on the spot.While here and in the western context my anti Zionist views are extreme,in the context of the Arab,Muslim and Palestinian world they are received with sympathy and understanding.After all,the impact on the Palestinian people was catastrophic.
    As for your somewhat irrational name calling rants they offer little to the debate.Such vile,absurd accusations serve no one.While it has been pointed out time and time again in this forum the obscenity of my sometimes comparisons of Nazism,genocide ,etc with the Palestinian Nakba(a fair criticism,I might add),I might level the same accusation at your comparisons with Hitler and Goebbels.Like the Holocaust,these names should not be used so loosely,otherwise they risk losing their impact and awe.Ah!The daily FPM arrives in my inbox.Saved by the bell.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "While here and in the western context my anti Zionist views are extreme,in the context of the Arab,Muslim and Palestinian world they are received with sympathy and understanding."

      READ: While here in the western context my red armband with a swastika and my white hood might seem extreme, but in the context of an Aryan Nations rally or a KKK meeting they are received with sympathy and understanding.

      I'm not making this stuff up folks!

      • MixMChess

        "Like the Holocaust,these names should not be used so loosely,otherwise they risk losing their impact and awe."

        Of course, so its ok when you compare Israel to Nazi Germany and Hitler, but its not ok when someone who recognizes such plainly antisemetic rhetoric to compare you to the Nazis.

        I'll make you a deal Ronny, if you stop lying about Israel I promise to stop telling the truth about you, sound good?

  • muchiboy

    "Where "Western values" and Torah values conflict, Torah values should supersede Western values. "

    Of course,I am ignorant of these values,WildJew.I will try to do some readings.However,I can't help but made an observation here,and will refrain from a judgement.America and other western (dare I say Christian!) democracies go to some length and effort to separate state and church,while Islamic states e.g.Iran,place religion above all else.And you,WildJew,want to place Torah values above western values!(well,yes my ! is somewhat judgmental.)But that is the regional thinking,isn't it.Must be something in the holy water.muchiboy

  • BS77

    it isn't only Israel….wherever the strident leftists appear, destruction and decline follow.
    In France, the US, England, Germany liberal leftist policies have wreaked havoc….open borders, sanctuary cities, appeasement of evil, multiculturism, declining educational standards, burgeoning welfare bureaucracies, higher taxes, fumbling and bumbling economic misery, confusion and immense debts….this is the legacy of the socialistas and their idiot followers. Look at the logical conclusion of leftist ideology: Burma, North Korea, Maoist China, Cuba, Stalninst Russia…..look at England today…..in deep decline, ravaged by decades of leftist gobbledeegook economic policies and PC shrugging moronic social policies… allowing millions of non assimllating, hostile ingrates to immigrate …..way to go, Brits. As Michael Savage said, LIberalism is a Mental Disorder.

  • Canuck

    Let’s compare Israel with any average Arab autocracy. In Israel, Arabs have full citizenship rights, serve in government, as judges (even at the Supreme Court level), and as diplomats. Israel’s tax money goes to all kinds of public services used by its Arab citizens, essentially providing them with first world freedoms and living standards. Even to its avowed enemies in Gaza and Judea/Samaria, it provides financial support, electricity, water rights, and more, in the vain hope of getting them to sign a so-called peace treaty.

    In the Arab world, most of the Jews (and Christians) have been removed and their property stolen. Today, few Arab countries allow Jews to reside, and only a few allow openly Jewish visitors. Residents of the average Arab autocrasy have no expectation of justice, personal freedoms including freedom of religion, speech, or of the press. Murder or torture of political opponents or religious minorities is commonplace. Government controlled media regularly broadcast anti-western propaganda and vile hate speech (including calls for genocide against Jews, Holocaust denial, blood libels, etc.).

  • MixMChess

    "To believe the region as vacant of Palestinian Arabs is obviously in the occupiers best interest,MixMChess.You really challenge your own credibility with this claim"

    Its not a belief muchiboy (aka Ronald Grant Neo Nazi corrections officer extraordinaire) moron, its a fact. Go look at a map and statistics from the time. The areas that the Jews built their state was VACANT. Look at the first hand accounts from people that passed through the region! I provided you with a list of people that are very easy to research. The fact that you are dismissive rather than providing hard facts shows my credibility and proves you have none.

    But, just because I'm such a nice guy I'll do your research for you once again…

    "The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population," British consul James Finn noted in 1857.

    "A few years ago the whole Ghor (Jordan Valley) was in the hands of the fellaheen, and much of it cultivated for corn. Now the whole of it is in the hands of the Bedouin, who eschew all agriculture…The same thing is now going on over the plain of Sharon where….land is going out of cultivation and whole villages rapidly disappeared….Since the year 1838, no less than twenty villages there have thus erased from the map, and the stationary population extirpated. " H.B. Tristam (The Land of Israel: A Journal of Travels Through Palestine, London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1865, p. 490)

    Historian Howard Sachar noted that: "the area suffered from severe underpopulation and was facing even more depopulation in the 19th century because of economic stagnation, the lack of civic order and the oppressive Ottoman system. There were barely 260,000 Arabs in 1882 in what today is Israel and the Territories, an area that had supported approximately 5 million people in the 1st century AD."

    "The country was…and is now, underdeveloped and under-populated. The methods of agriculture are, for the most part, primitive; the area of land now cultivated could yield a far greater product. There are…large cultivable areas that are left untilled. The summits and slopes of the hills are admirably suited to the growth of trees, but there are no forests. Miles of sand dunes that could be redeemed, are untouched." From the Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine to the League of Nations, June 1921.

    The Peel Commission Report of 1937 found that "Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was bought." Hmmm… could it be the Arabs were jealous that the Jews were able to make the desert bloom?

    PBS provided a report on Tel Aviv which founded in 1909 on an expanse of empty sand dunes: "In 1909 a group of Jews intent on founding an alternative city to the crowded, predominantly Arab port city of Jaffa buy UNINHABITED sand dunes to the north and create a garden suburb. They name it Tel Aviv, which translates to "Hill of Spring. Tel Aviv becomes the first modern Jewish city, with a population of 35,000 by 1921 and 200,000 by 1948."

    Let me know if you need more proof Ronald Grant, otherwise shut the heck up and quit trolling. We are all sick of you're garbage and rantings. Go back to your Hamilton Ontario inmates you neo-Nazi corrections officer.

  • muchiboy

    "There is absolutely no comparing the Holocaust with the so-called "Nakba."

    What can I say,MixMChess.One man's Holocaust is another man's Nakba.Little to be gained by engaging in a "suffering Olympics" i.e.my people suffered more then your people.For what it's worth,I do consider the Holocaust the Gold Standard by which man's inhumanity to man is to be judged.But for you to deny,and worse still take some apparent delight,in Palestinian suffering is just plain wrong. ("So YES, I am a PROUD NAKBA denier".your words,not mine unless my contextual error)).muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "But for you to deny,and worse still take some apparent delight,in Palestinian suffering is just plain wrong."

      First of all, the Nakba has always roughly translated to the idea that Israel's very existence is a disaster or catastrophe. Thus the very essence of the so-called "Nakba" seeks to delegitimize Israel's very existence and defame Jews all in one full swoop. So yes I proudly deny that Israel's founding was a so-called disaster or catastrophe.

      As for Palestinian suffering, you are putting words in my mouth and you should know better to do that. I take no delight in Palestinian suffering. When have I ever stated such nonsense? I merely point out the cold hard fact that the vast majority of Palestinian suffering is self-created and is in no way the fault of Israel.

      Its as plain and simple as that Nazi-boy.

  • muchiboy

    "Try downloading Palestinian schoolbooks that make no mention of the Holocaust or deny it all together. Shame on you."

    I recall debating this very point in earlier postings.Not to deny that Palestinian schoolbooks may be biased,which I don't know.But to put things in balance,I did hear an interview on CBC with a young Israeli women who claimed that her education was markedly one sided and biased in terms of Zionism and the history of the Palestinian Arabs.muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      Several decades ago the Israeli textbooks did use stereotyped images of Arabs; however, the books in use in public schools TODAY are very different. Over 15 Israeli textbooks go out of their way to avoid prejudices and to guard against generalizations.

      For example, in an elementary textbook on reading comprehension, students read how a Jewish girl was saved by an Arab woman. The book notes, “The Arabs are like the Jews. … There are nasty people among them and there are decent people and … they should not be labeled” (What is the Interpretation? Comprehension B, pp. 184-188).

      Also, contrary to suggestions that Israelis do not accept the idea that Palestinians are a people, Israeli textbooks explain the origins of Palestinian nationalism. For example, "a 9th grade text observes that 'during the 1930’s, Arab nationalist movements evolved all over the Middle East. Many of the Arabs of Eretz Yisrael also began formulating a national consciousness — in other words, the perception that they are not just part of the larger Arab nation, but are also Palestinians' (The Twentieth Century – On the Threshold of Tomorrow, Grade 9, 1999, p.44)."

      Why is it that Israeli textbooks can move past the rhetoric and provide an unbiased history whereas you and the Palestinians can't?