Israel’s Enduring Strength

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We see, therefore, a democracy that is happy, and wants to have lots of kids, despite harsh experiences of terrorism and war. But there is still more.

The Israel Defense Forces is currently conducting one of its triannual drafts, and of the recruits who were approved for combat duty, the proportion requesting it – 73.3 percent – is an all-time Israeli record. The rate has been climbing since the perceived success of the Gaza War (or Operation Cast Lead), and some believe that worldwide criticism of Israel’s self-defense against terror is prompting a patriotic counterreaction.

Whatever the explanation, this datum, too, is striking considering that decades ago Israel was seemingly a much more “ideological” country, with much greater percentages of its youth taking part in socialist-Zionist, nationalist-Zionist, religious-Zionist, or just patriotic-Zionist youth movements. Since then the landscape of Israeli youth culture has – superficially at least – become much more “normal,” with a high infusion of Western pop. But from that landscape emerge young people more motivated than ever for difficult, dangerous combat training and service.

A long time ago, for approximately its first two decades, Israel was perceived and portrayed as a small, brave, admirable country, an inspiring phenomenon. Subsequently it became identified with disproportionate violence and oppression of the Palestinians. Anyone who cares to look through the media miasma will see a country no less inspiring, perhaps even more so, than back then, confronted more starkly than others with life and death and making its choice.

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  • Shalom Freedman

    This article is a wonderful corrective to the general attitude taken when Israel is written about. Israel is a remarkable country in many many ways and its achievements in so many areas of human endeavor are truly out of proportion with its small size.
    I too was pleased to see Israel ranked as 'eighth happiest country' however not sure I am of what this means.
    This past week six Israeli Air Force Personnel were killed in a training incident in Romania. This is a source of grief above all of course for the families but also for many many Israeli citizens who take any 'loss' of our soldiers as personal.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    Congratulations Israel on your high Happiness ranking,with 62% of Israelis thriving compared with 70% of Palestinians struggling.Seems victimizing others has some paradoxical benefits.Well done.Muchiboy
    http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/14/world-happiest-c

    • Paardestaart

      Well Muchi – palestinians are arabs. They simply share the fate of the umma all over the world: they are being miserable. But don't worry – God will make it up to them in the life hereafter.
      Arabs are proud to say: westerners and jews love life – we love death.

      Would you deny them their choice?.

    • New Yorker

      There are also 80% Chinese, 60% Turks, 70% Egyptians, 90% of all in Africa and many others struggling. I suppose that's all Israel's fault. Thank God that Israel managed to do better than them. This should be a reason for admiration and learning appropriate lessons. Perhaps the value placed on human life and creativity in Israel is somewhat higher than that in most other places in the world. Why don't you address this issue Muchiboy? Societies that treat their members in a savage way have only themselves to blame for their depravity. Human life and dignity are worth nothing there. That's why a suicide bomber and a bloody mass murderer cum terrorist invariably produce a sort of euphoric reaction and respect in all of these places.

    • New Yorker

      There is something about the Jews that trigger a sort of allergic reaction in you Muchiboy. It rather sounds like a pathology to me because what you write makes very little sense otherwise.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

        "what you write makes very little sense otherwise."

        Your diagnosis might make more sense if I were the only one to hold such opinions,NY'er.As it stands,many good,educated and reasonable people around the world in many walks of life,including many Jews,hold identical ideas.What's your next diagnosis,mass hysteria? Or maybe,just maybe,you and your kind suffer from malignancy of the heart and an untroubled conscience.Convenient for you,maybe, but unfortunately for everyone else,especially your victims,not treatable.Maybe someday there will be a cure.Till then,God bless us all.Muchiboy .

        • New Yorker

          The fact that there are many more "good,educated and reasonable people around the world in many walks of life" tells more about the quality of their education than anything else. Quantity does not necessarily translates into quality. What difference does it make that a stupidity is being repeated a million times? Does it stop being a stupidity as a result? If anything, that so many people reapeat it makes it sadder still. Whether many or some Jews subscribe to similar views is really irrelevant. My heart is fine – let me worry about its condition. My victims? Who are they? Never been convicted of anything.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

            " tells more about the quality of their education.."

            The following Jews are no slouches,NY'er:

            Professor Yigal Arens, the son of Moshe Arens; Mark Bruzonsky, former Washington Associate, World Jewish Congress, who now serves as chairperson for the organization; Professor Noam Chomsky, Institute Professor MIT; Rabbi Susan Einbinder, Colgate University; Jane Hunter, publisher of Israeli Foreign Affairs; Jeremy Levin, former CNN Beirut Bureau Chief and former hostage in Lebanon; Professor Don Peretz, Department of Political Science, SUNY; and Henry Schwarzschild, of the American Civil Liberties Union.
            http://www.mepc.org/journal/9012_corrigan.asp

            "Never been convicted of anything. "

            To the contrary,NY'er,you have been tried and found guilty of unconscionable crimes against the Palestinian people by the court of public opinion.

            Muchiboy

          • New Yorker

            "To the contrary,NY'er,you have been tried and found guilty of unconscionable crimes against the Palestinian people by the court of public opinion. "

            I don't care about this surreal "court of public opinion" with its diabolical show trials and propaganda for public consumption. I care about the court of law and documented evidence. Your ideology offers none of it.

            All of those you have listed above to me do not represent an authority on the issue. Some of them are merely contemptible and lack any credibility whatsoever. I met plenty of such "professors" in my life.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

            Just for example, there is an entire section of this website dedicated to debunking the lunatic rantings of Noam Chomsky.

        • New Yorker

          "As it stands,many good,educated and reasonable people around the world in many walks of life,including many Jews,hold identical ideas"

          There were many educated people from many walks of life directly implicated in the Holocaust in Europe. It is well documented and irrefutable. The majority of people in Europe either directly participated in or otherwise allowed – or saw nothing wrong with – the Holocaust while it was taking place. This exactle what makes this whole thing a horror and abomination as opposed to making it right. It is your view which makes a mockery out of logic and sense perverting them. So please leave my conscience alone.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

            "There were many educated people from many walks of life directly implicated in the Holocaust in Europe. It is well documented and irrefutable. The majority of people in Europe either directly participated in or otherwise allowed – or saw nothing wrong with – the Holocaust while it was taking place. "

            You're right,NY'er.Germany was and may still be the most civilized nation that ever existed when that horror of horrors,the Holocaust, took place.Even Israel is very civilized in that way,yet they carry on as if the Nakba never occurred.This time I have no answers.I wish I did.Sorry,NY'er.Ron

          • New Yorker

            "Germany was and may still be the most civilized nation that ever existed"

            Winston Churchill once noted that Germans as a nation are some of the most regimented people on Earth. I always thought that place the highest value on individual identity is what makes a society most civilized. I have my doubts when it come to Germany.

            "Even Israel is very civilized in that way"

            That "even" of yours before Israel truly betrays your pathology.

            "as if the Nakba never occurred"

            It never did Muchiboy. Only in Arab propaganda and ideological fairy tales designed for fools.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

            ""as if the Nakba never occurred"
            It never did Muchiboy. Only in Arab propaganda and ideological fairy tales designed for fools. "

            Like the holocaust never happened,NY'er? Seems you and the Holocaust deniers have something sinister in common,NY'er.Maybe we should explore this dark commonality,eh? Muchiboy

          • New Yorker

            THis a travesty of comparison Muchiboy. I won't even answer further.

          • New Yorker

            Both the Holocaust denying and the so-called Nakba are based on lies and warped interpretation of events. There are facts and there are lies. And it is up to a discriminating mind to distinguish between the two. Yours does not seem to be one for whatever reason. But again, where ideology predominates history has no place. Know it from the bitter experience.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

            "And it is up to a discriminating mind to distinguish between the two"

            For me,there is real and convincing evidence for the Holocaust.What occurred was so horrendous to be almost unspeakable,but for the imperative "we must never forget".
            Similarly,there is evidence enough for the Palestinian Nakba.
            It is telling ,touching really,and I think speaks to the very soul of humanity, that Palestinians refer to themselves as "the victims of victims",recognizing the suffering of the Jews who in turn were the reason d'etre for their own tragic suffering.Muchiboy.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

            "Similarly,there is evidence enough for the Palestinian Nakba."

            What evidence? There is none. You never have any facts to back up your wild accusations.

            "It is telling ,touching really,and I think speaks to the very soul of humanity, that Palestinians refer to themselves as "the victims of victims",recognizing the suffering of the Jews who in turn were the reason d'etre for their own tragic suffering."

            Which is just an attempt to compare Jews with Nazis and belittle the Holocaust. Its a tired old argument to try to exculpate Europeans and Arabs (Palestinians) that were complicit with the Nazis during the Holocaust (see Grand Mufti). Of course the logic follows, that if you can demonize the Jews than the Holocaust really wasn't that bad and the Jews were "deserving of it" and somehow worse than the Nazis. Its sick logic only used by Pali-propagandists such as yourself.

            As I have proven above, Israel is in no way comparable to the Nazis. The Palestinians are victims of themselves.

          • Stern

            muchiboy, I would highly recommend Efraim Karsh's new book, Palestine Betrayed. Do yourself a favour and read it, noting carefully the sources upon which the author draws: in addition to the Yishuv and its leaders, he quotes widely from newly released documents by the Arabs and the British and reaches the inevitable conclusion that the "nakba" was almost entirely self-inflicted. The Palestinians were indeed, and continue to be, betrayed by their leaders – and not by anybody else.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

            "Do yourself a favour and read it.."

            Well,I never say no to doing myself a favor,Stern.I will need to do some searching of the reviews before I read it.Something is always to be gained by exposing oneself to works that challenge ones firmly and long held views,as this one would seem to do.Thanks.Muchiboy

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

            The Nakba itself is a form of Holocaust denial. It seeks to replace and trump Jewish suffering with Palestinian suffering by degrading the impact and horror of the Holocaust. The Nakba is built completely on fabricated myths with no historical evidence whereas the Holocaust unfortunately has very real and systematic facts.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

            I see you are subtly trying to compare the Israelis (or Jews) with Nazis. As I have proven before, the Nazis’ objective was the systematic extermination of every Jew in Europe. Israel only seeks peace with its Palestinian neighbors. 1.5 million Arabs live as free and equal citizens in Israel. The Israelis provide tons of economic and humanitarian aid to the W. Bank and Gaza to try to build the Palestinian Infrastructure. The Palestinian population increased by over 80% from 1994-2004 alone!

            By the way, the Nakba is another myth along with Deir Yassin and any other Palestinian "claims" to statehood.

        • New Yorker

          Why is it that almost without exception, only those siding with the totalitarian and backward always appeal to my conscience?

          • sebyandrew

            Why is it that almost without exception, only those siding with the totalitarian and backward always appeal to my conscience?

            Bec. you are more likely to have one. It is a useful tactic on their part to exploit this "weakness."
            One can't really appeal to the Arab conscience when it comes to Israel.This is made an impossibility due to historical factors that long-preceded the creation of a jewish state- Islam and tribalism. Ideas have consequences. Some BTW bring/ carry with them the right to be happy.

    • SamGilon

      It is the so called "Palestinians" who have been victimizing themselves over the past sixty years, with some generous help from their Arab brethren. Have you no idea how they are treated even today in Lebanon or in Egypt? How they treat each other?
      After the end of WWII over twelve million Germans were displaced from what used to be Eastern Prussia, from what is now the Western part of Poland, and from the Sudetenland (Czech republic), never mind the cause. Close to five million Chnese fled mainland China to Hong Kong when Mao came to power.. Close to one million Jews fled the Arab Countires after 1948.
      How many of these people have become suicide bmbers? Did any of these people go to beg UNWRA for food parcels? How many of those Germans, Chinese, and Jews have become permanent basket cases?
      Are these "Palestinians" united by some common denominator other than the hate of the Jews? Is there any pride left in them? How can you profess to be a nation in the making when you are in fact a refugee and a basket case by choice?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

        "How can you profess to be a nation in the making when you are in fact a refugee and a basket case by choice?"

        I have always held back from accusing the Jews of being psychopaths.But it appears as if you have no conscience when it comes to your crimes against the Palestinians.What are we to think? Muchiboy

        • New Yorker

          Can't you just stop spewing your ideological nonsense? These "crimes", "victimazing" and "palestinians" crap no longer cut it.

          • New Yorker

            At least not here.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

            "Can't you just stop spewing "

            You first,NY'er. Muchiboy

        • SamGilon

          Muchiboy, you should learn some history of that region before you commence spewing leftist wordspeak.

          • New Yorker

            Ideology and history are incompatible.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

          "I have always held back from accusing the Jews of being psychopaths."

          But the Palestinians are psychopaths – they are a culture that worships death. They inculcate their children to hate and become suicide bombers. What normal parent dresses their baby as suicide bomber? What normal mother hopes their child will become a martyr rather than a successful upstanding citizen? Hamas has declared they want to drink the blood of Jews! Palestinian feminists encourage the rape of Israeli women. Palestinian culture is warped, twisted and downright EVIL.

          "But it appears as if you have no conscience when it comes to your crimes against the Palestinians."

          But there are no crimes against Palestinians, just accusations that you NEVER back up with any facts. Get over it, you're just propping up the only heirs to the Nazi regime.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/sebyandrew sebyandrew

          I have always held back from accusing the Jews of being psychopaths….

          wow what a rhetorical device! What self-restraint. Congrats are in order.

          But why? You've already removed all doubt.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

            "accusing the Jews of being psychopaths…"

            "But why? You've already removed all doubt. "

            A little bit of drama goes a long way,sebyandrew,.At least psychopaths may be forgiven some as it is their nature.But for the normal human being with empathy to deny such acts is unforgivable.Muchiboy

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

        "over twelve million Germans were displaced from what used to be Eastern Prussia, from what is now the Western part of Poland, and from the Sudetenland (Czech republic), never mind the cause. Close to five million Chnese fled mainland China to Hong Kong when Mao came to power.. Close to one million Jews fled the Arab Countires after 1948. "

        Don't you think it's time these and other examples of ethnic cleansing stopped,SamGilon.The Jewish Diaspora was just such an example of ethnic cleansing by the Roman Legions,just as the Palestinian Nakba was a modern example of ethnic cleansing by the Jewish Legions.Muchiboy

        • New Yorker

          "the Palestinian Nakba was a modern example of ethnic cleansing by the Jewish Legions"

          No Muchiboy – there were not enough jews in Israel at that time, after the Holocaust, to make up "Jewish Legions". The "Palestinian Nakba" is a fiction both jointly and separately.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

            "No Muchiboy – there were not enough jews in Israel at that time, after the Holocaust, to make up "Jewish Legions". The "Palestinian Nakba" is a fiction both jointly and separately. "

            Amazing,NY'er.You have an answer for everything.Give me the numbers for the next Lottery.I'll share.Thanks.Muchiboy

          • New Yorker

            "Give me the numbers for the next Lottery.I'll share.Thanks"

            Sorry – this should be asked of your local politician.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

          "The Jewish Diaspora was just such an example of ethnic cleansing by the Roman Legions,just as the Palestinian Nakba was a modern example of ethnic cleansing by the Jewish Legions."

          How is it ethnic cleansing when the Arabs WILLINGLY left? The Jewish population in 1948 was around 650,000 – doesn't sound like legions to me. Israel begged the Arabs to make peace, and the Jewish leaders of Israel BEGGED the Arabs to stay and become a part of their nation. Of course they were refused and met with aggression and xenophobia that continues to this day (you are a perfect example of this muchiboy). Israel offered to repatriate 300,000 refugees in 1950 and was REJECTED by the Arabs (I can only assume that without the Palestinians they didn't have any propaganda). Do you really need me to go on?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

            "How is it ethnic cleansing when the Arabs WILLINGLY left? "

            You honestly believe that the Palestinians would willingly leave their homes,towns,cities,farms and homeland? Have you ever been in a war? Can you imagine how it must have felt to be a civilian,Jewish or Muslim, at that time?I'll tell you the same thing I would tell someone who said the Jews boarded the rail cars willingly."You're an ignorant fool."Think critically,MixMChest.
            I have yet to read Sterns suggested reading,but my above observation stands.Muchiboy

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

            "You honestly believe that the Palestinians would willingly leave their homes,towns,cities,farms and homeland?"

            Yes, because this is what historically happened. The Arab governments prompted the Arabs to leave their homes to create a clear path for their armies to invade Israel and "push the Jews into the sea." Most of the wealthy Arabs, who were the majority of landowners, left the minute they saw war was on the horizon. Since the majority of the Arabs were also new immigrants to the land, having arrived in droves in the early 20th century after the Jews raised the standard of living and created important economic opportunities, going back to their TRUE homelands, the surrounding Arab countries, was quite natural and of little consequence. Of course, the Arab governments later exploited the refugees for their own purposes creating today's conflict.

            "Can you imagine how it must have felt to be a civilian,Jewish or Muslim, at that time?"

            Yes, the Jews were facing another impending Holocaust, they were extremely frightened. The Arabs were hoping to regain their dignity and glory lost in WWII by destroying the Jews. The Jews pleaded for peace, while the bloodthirsty Arabs were eager for war.

            "I'll tell you the same thing I would tell someone who said the Jews boarded the rail cars willingly"

            What is that even supposed to mean?

            "You're an ignorant fool."

            This coming form someone who doesn't even understand basic facts and history of the Middle East and much else for that matter.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

      "That "even" of yours before Israel truly betrays your pathology. "

      I thought it portrayed the lack of civility and maliciousness that underlies the thin and deceptive veil of Israeli civilization.Muchiboy

      • New Yorker

        It was hard to understand – too vague and fact free.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

      Congratulations Israel on your high Happiness ranking,with 62% of Israelis thriving compared with 70% of Palestinians struggling.Seems victimizing others has some paradoxical benefits.Well done.

      You assume (incorrectly) that there is a correlation between Israeli's happiness and the "struggles of the Palestinian, as if to suggest that the Israelis are somehow to blame for this… Fact is the Palestinians have themselves to blame for their misery. The Palestinians have received billions in aid from Israel, U.S.A., the EU, and the Arab/Islamic Bloc over the past 10 years. Rather than investing in their infrastructure they have invested in weapons and propaganda to murder innocent Jews. Even Palestinian reporter Khaled Abu Tomeh correctly blames the Palestinian leadership for the Palestinian problems, NOT Israel. Lest we forget that Arafat himself stole Millions (that Suha is still living off of like a fat pig that she is in France) from the Palestinians and Hamas and Abbas are doing the same now.

  • Paardestaart

    I went to Israel three years ago, saying I wanted my feet to touch the stones of Jerusalem before it would sink again under sackcloth and ashes. I expected nothing much really; certainly not this wonderfully familiar but different, strange but mine, exotic but moderns, busy and bustling place. I marvelled at how everything 'works' in Israel – how people living in a country that is in danger of being crushed by almost the whole world can be bothered to sprinkle every blade of grass with it's own irrigation system, why they restore old buildings, make good coffee and read bools. Nothing like the warzone I expected, no siege mentality – just an optimistic, matter of fact and inspired hustle and bustle
    I saw how brisk young soldiers and shopworkers efficiently cleared the street after a bomb alarm, and how quickly everyone went about their business when the all clear sounded; I saw how good life can be on a tiny piece of desertland scorched by the sun and surrounded by misery and elend, and I decided that the jews would never ever leave all this behind – no matter how many idiotarians they count among them, no how many self-doubting leftards there are in this land making impossible demands on jewish leadership.
    I wouldn't!

  • karl

    From what I have been reading the anti Israel crowd are real hate mongers.
    The left has no reason in them at all. One small country and a few million people are tha cause of all the worlds problems. Yeah right.
    They are pathetic and dangerous at the same time.

    • Lori

      Israel Is far beyond, The World Problems are their own! Israel has been A scapegoat for ALL who do want to be Pathetic and Dangerous at the same time.

  • Stern

    Muchiboy, please scroll up to my reply to your early accusations about the "Nakba". See what I wrote about Karsh's new book, Palestine Betrayed. If you dare …

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/traeh traeh

    Re Muchiboy and others:
    Whether the Palestinians were expelled or left voluntarily in response to calls from the attacking Arab nations, is disputed. Perhaps the reality was a mix of some sort. But even if for the sake of argument one assumes they were all expelled, it makes no sense for Muchiboy to compare the situation to what the Nazis did. The Israelis were being invaded at the time by four or five Arab nations, and it was in that setting that many so-called Palestinians left. The Nazis were not invaded. They did the invading. The situation was diametrically opposite. Further, Israel is a tiny nation, whereas Germany was rather substantial. Israel was facing a grave existential threat, and many hostiles were within her borders. The Arabs, being so confident that their combined forces would defeat Israel, told the Israeli Palestinians to evacuate Israel, so that the Arabs could more easily prosecute the conflict. Once the Arabs had won, the Palestinians could return, they were told. Under that kind of grave existential threat to its existence, with five surrounding Arab nations trying simultaneously to destroy Israel, it would be surprising if no Israeli commanders and soldiers did wrong against the enemy population among them. To compare the situation to what the Nazis did is a huge error, in so many ways.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

      "Israel was facing a grave existential threat"

      What does that mean,"a grave existential threat"? Up till that time,Israel hadn't existed for over a thousand years.Just where do we place this existential Israel,to the left of the "biblical Israel",or to the right of a "virtual Israel"?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

        "What does that mean,"a grave existential threat"? Up till that time,Israel hadn't existed for over a thousand years.Just where do we place this existential Israel,to the left of the "biblical Israel",or to the right of a "virtual Israel"?

        Your true ignorance of the conflict shows in your inability to grasp even the basic facts. From when the first Zionist pioneers arrived in the region, they created their own local institutions and governance structures. After, Israel FORMALLY declared its independence in 1948 it was immediately invaded by all of the surrounding Arab armies. I am assuming that is the "grave existential threat" traeh is referencing.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

      " it makes no sense for Muchiboy to compare the situation to what the Nazis did."

      You need be more specific in my comparison,traeh.The only comparison I see I referenced is between the Holocaust and the Palestinian Nakba.There are some valid comparisons,but of course the analogy is imperfect.
      I don't have a problem saying the Holocaust is above and beyond the most monstrous act of genocide and ethnic cleansing the world has ever witnessed.But that it is sacred to the point of being off limits and incomparable to other perhaps lesser acts I will not accept.Muchiboy

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

        "I referenced is between the Holocaust and the Palestinian Nakba.There are some valid comparisons,but of course the analogy is imperfect."

        No, as I have previously proven, there are absolutely no valid comparisons between the Holocaust and the fabricated "Nakba." The analogy isn't just imperfect it is flat out wrong, and you know you can't support your claim.

        "But that it is sacred to the point of being off limits and incomparable to other perhaps lesser acts I will not accept."

        The Holocaust can certainly be compared to other genocides, such as the Armenian Genocide, the Russian gulags and the Sudan/Darfur Genocide to name a few… However, it cannot be compared to a FICTITIOUS event such as the Nakba. It is a disservice not only to the memories of those who legitimately perished and suffered in the holocaust but those who perished and suffered in other real genocides.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/AL__ AL__
  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    "I'll tell you the same thing I would tell someone who said the Jews boarded the rail cars willingly"

    "What is that even supposed to mean? "

    Well,you tell me the Palestinians willingly left their homes,farms,towns and homeland and maybe someone will tell you the Jews in wartime Europe willingly boarded the rail cars to where ever.Neither makes much sense and only a fool would accept that explanation at face value.

    " The Jews pleaded for peace, while the bloodthirsty Arabs were eager for war. "

    Come back when you have a little more life experience,MixMChess.Talk to me when you have seen the horrors of war.It seems you know the peaceful Jew and the bloodthirsty Arab.Now go seek the peaceful Arab and the bloodthirsty Jew.We are all more the same then different.

    Muchiboy

    MixMChess.Muchiboy

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

      "Well,you tell me the Palestinians willingly left their homes,farms,towns and homeland and maybe someone will tell you the Jews in wartime Europe willingly boarded the rail cars to where ever.Neither makes much sense and only a fool would accept that explanation at face value."

      You're making a false analogy on incorrect facts. The Arabs actually DID willingly leave their homes in anticipation of war, whereas the Jews in the Holocaust were forced by gun barrel to their extermination. Arabs/Palestinians were never once at risk of forced extermination, whereas Jews have been faced with that prospect at the hands of the Arabs multiple times since the Holocaust.

      The fact remains, "had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN partition, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee. An independent Palestinian state would exist beside Israel. The responsibility for the refugee problem rests solely with the Arabs."

      "Come back when you have a little more life experience,MixMChess.Talk to me when you have seen the horrors of war."

      Please, don't try to discount my comments just because you can't respond to my facts. I don't need your exact "life experience" to refute your ridiculous claims.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    " The Jews pleaded for peace, while the bloodthirsty Arabs were eager for war. "

    "don't try to discount my comments just because you can't respond to my facts. I don't need your exact "life experience" to refute your ridiculous claims. "

    I very rarely discount your comments,MixMChess,in fact I mostly look forward and enjoy them.But comments like " The " xxxxx " pleaded for peace, while the bloodthirsty " yyyyy " were eager for war. " belong in a 1957 western or soap opera,not here in 2010 on FP.They are far too general and black and white for any meaningful dialog. Muchiboy

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/sebyandrew sebyandrew

      …comments like " The " xxxxx " pleaded for peace, while the bloodthirsty " yyyyy " were eager for war. " belong in a 1957 western or soap opera,not here in 2010 on FP.They are far too general and black and white for any meaningful dialog. Muchiboy

      Mixmchess is spot on. They are simply succinct. We are dealing with a world view thAT cannot and will not come to grips with the modern era. The end to meaningful dialogue seems to have been reached on your end judging by the above inanity.

    • ziontruth

      Muchiboy:

      "But comments like [...] are far too general and black and white for any meaningful dialog."

      This from the same type of commenter who portrays the mideast conflict as one between "White European Settler Colonist Can-Do-No-Right Israel" versus the "Brown Asian Indigenous Native Can-Do-No-Wrong Palestinians."

      I got your number, Marxist scum, and I know you only pretend to be pluralistic and gray-shaded when you need to get the other side to lose confidence in their position; when it comes to reciprocity (entertaining the possibility that perhaps, you know, the Phakestinians MIGHT be the oppressors and thieves here and the Jews the indigenous struggling and resisting), you reveal your true totalitarian, black-and-white characters.

      You impress only those who don't know you well. I'm not one of those. I know how Marxists operate and what ruses they constantly employ.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

        "I know how Marxists operate and what ruses they constantly employ. "

        Asshole,I spent 3 years lugging around a 4.45 kg FN fighting marxists in the African bush.Muchiboy

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    "The end to meaningful dialogue seems to have been reached on your end judging by the above inanity. "

    Perhaps you're right,sebyandrew.At least for me and FP.But the one hope for peace and resolution in the Mid East is meaningful dialog,as difficult as that may be.Shalom.Muchiboy

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/WilliamJWard WilliamJamesWard

    So its 2.6 children being had by Jewish women, very interesting measure of
    being a happy society. As I see it the Arabs are insanely happy, what are they
    having per family 20………………..William

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/sebyandrew sebyandrew

      Maybe there is a corollary betw. the two or maybe it is more a measure of good ole PLUCK.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    "I know how Marxists operate and what ruses they constantly employ. "

    A'hole,I spent 3 years lugging around a 4.45 kg FN fighting marxists in the African bush.Muchiboy

    • ziontruth

      On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog. (Except when you prove yourself to be one, like you just did with your lavatory language.)

      Being anti-Israel and pro-Phakestinian is pretty much a Marxist and Muslim monopoly, but even if you aren't one of those two, even if you belong to the faux-isolationist Buchananite Right, the message is the same.

      The Phakestinian nation is a consciously fictitious construct meant to disguise the unjust desire of the Arab nation–possessor of great masses of land beyond its indigenous territory, the Arabian peninsula–to deny the Jews self-determination in their one and only indigenous land in the world, the Land of Israel (including Judea and Samaria). The only way Jews could be stealing lands from the Arabs is if they settled the Arabian peninsula. On the Land of Israel, the only land-grabs possible are land-grabs FROM the Jews.

      That is the truth.

  • muchiboy

    " your lavatory language."

    At least "a'hole" is comprehensible to most people,literally and figuratively.
    WTF does "pro-Phakestinian" or "faux-isolationist Buchananite Right" mean?

    "The Phakestinian nation is a consciously fictitious construct meant to disguise the unjust desire of the Arab nation–possessor of great masses of land beyond its indigenous territory, the Arabian peninsula–to deny the Jews self-determination in their one and only indigenous land in the world"

    You wish,ziontruth.You and those who deny the Palestinian people their status as legitimate refugees from Palestine ,then and now occupied by Zionists,are guilty of both legal and moral crimes against humanity.It is both interesting and telling that such crimes are not far removed from the legacy of that other great crime against humanity ,the Holocaust.
    Certainly denial is understandable and beneficial especially to the perpetrator(s).In this case (1) you get to keep what you took and (2) you perceive yourself and are perceived by others as guilt free.It works in this world only if there is no or little effective criticism of the acts.Whether it works in the other world depends on who's God you believe in and how wise and just he is.I think the most damming criticism of your actions and justification and denial for same is that if you get away with it,then evil acts like the Holocaust will be seen to be less evil then it deserves to be.When one evil act is denied then the precedent is set for the lessening of other evil acts.
    Fortunately,large parts of humanity,including your own countrymen and religious and ethnic peers see through your denial.In the end,justice may not be served,but at least humanity has seen the lie,for what it is worth.Similarly,humanity was not able to prevent the Holocaust,but we now know the evil for what it was,again for what it is worth.Muchiboy

    P.S. "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog." Sometimes I think it better to be a dog then a human.Dogs love unconditionally,are loyal to a fault,don't lie,tell it like it is and don't put humans on rail cars and put them in death camps.Only humans do that.Give me a dog and a child any day.

    • ziontruth

      The Phakestinian Phraud is a zero-sum game in which you either deny it and accept the truth of Jewish history, or believe in the Phraud and deny the truth of Jewish history. That was the express purpose for which the Phakestinian was invented. The Arab nation had no problem with over 20 populous states covering a huge mass of land declaring war against one single tiny Jewish state, but they did have a problem marketing that war to the world. Therefore, they invented a "Palestinian" nation from scratch, complete with (false) history and all, so they could reverse David and Goliath in this conflict and portray the Jewish state as the oppressor and land-thief.

      But the facts remain as they always were: The Arab nation is the greedy, covetous thief and oppressor here, and the Jewish nation has the right to inhabit every inch of its land. The Phakestinians are not a nation in their own right but part of the Arab nation; if they do not recognize that Israel is the state of the Jews, they have no right to live here, and must be deported. Every nation in the world, provided it be real and not fictitious, has the right to a nation-exclusive state. That vision is far better than the multiculturalist one, which has so far been the source of nothing but bloodshed.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    "The Phakestinian Phraud is a zero-sum game…"

    "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil:
    You know,I've walked through that valley in Africa and being younger and with my armed peers stood firm against what I perceived at the time to be evil.But your posting I find frightening,almost inhuman(e).I don't want to carry on this dialog with you,ziontruth.
    Furthermore,I don't want to carry on the dialog with FP any longer.While I have enjoyed the arguments presented by all,and consider you worthwhile and respected and mostly respectful opponents,your almost inhumane opinion of the Palestinian people is both fatiguing and regrettable.How little humanity has learned the lessons of the Holocaust.I wold hope that this vocal little group is not representative of humanity nor Jews but rather a statistical aberration.Again,Shalom.Muchiboy

    • ziontruth

      Don't let the door etc.

      I'll just respond to the one accusation you've been flinging around against Israel and Zionists, here seen in the form, "How little humanity has learned the lessons of the Holocaust." You claim you're not a Marxist, but like them you equate mass deportation with genocide. Mass deportation does not equal genocide, and those examples you could give me where mass deportation ended with genocide don't make the case, because in all those examples, we find out genocide had been in the plan from the beginning.

      I do not advocate genocide of the Arabs inhabiting the Land of Israel. I am saying that those of them who do not recognize Israel to be the state of the Jews should be repatriated. And this is a right that every nation has with regard to people of a different nation residing in it. My views do not stem from supremacism–the belief that my nation is above all other nations–but from the belief that the state should be the protective framework for its nation; like, as it were, an operating system that walls off each process in its own memory space, in order to guarantee that no process trample upon the space of the other. Far from advocating genocide, my view of state policy is one that has great capacity of averting it. Or have you not noticed–you must have, unless you get your info only from the Leftstream Media–how all situations where multiple nations reside under the same political framework (=state) always degenerate into quagmires of strife at best? Separatist contempt as in Belgium is the best that multinational states can offer; usually, as in Darfur, the result is the very genocide you claim to be so aghast at. You say you're not a Marxist, but you're as unthinking (or hypocritical) as them.

      As for Judaism: it's on my side. The Halakha's view as to how the Jewish state should be agrees with me, and disagrees with the Politically Correct, Multi-Culti ideal.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    One can identify certain characteristics of a society that may be predictive of impending genocidal behavior.Propaganda utilizing mass media often condoned and sponsored by the ruling elites that result in public attitudes that dehumanize a segment of the population is a commonality here.Somewhat the same attitudes towards an enemy are forged in war but may be less fanatical and often directed against the state i.e.armed forces and infrastructure vs an identified segment of the population.
    We don't have to look too hard to identify where and how the Nazi regime dehumanized the Jews and other targeted populations.Similarly we don't have to look too hard at the postings on FP to see how the members dehumanize the Palestinian people.
    People are people,whoever and where ever they are.We are all more the same then different.We all have mothers and fathers,we all love our children,we all strive to make a living and provide for our families.We all suffer losses and have tragedies in our lives.
    We don't need to dehumanize one another,especially a people,and a vulnerable people at that.
    Muchiboy

    • ziontruth

      I did not say the Arabs inhabiting the Land of Israel are not human beings, I said they don't constitute a nation in their own right. They're part of the Arab nation; the Arab nation is indigenous to the Arabian peninsula, and therefore has no right to obstruct the Jews–the nation indigenous to the Land of Israel–inhabiting and exercising sovereignty over any part of the Land of Israel. If they do, they must be treated just like illegal aliens in any sane state: deported, no matter their number.

      The Phakestinian Phraud is not for the purpose of the independence of a nation (the Arab nation already has 22 states; the "Palestinian nation" is a fiction); it's for the purpose of fighting against the independence of a nation (the Jewish nation has only one state; to mask this patently unjust struggle, the Arabs concocted the fiction of the "Palestinian nation". But there is only one true Palestinian nation, and that is the Jewish nation).

      Do you post on Arab/Muslim sites telling them not to dehumanize Zionist Jews, or is dehumanization A-OK if it's for a "good cause"? Inquiring minds want to know.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

        > (the Arab nation already has 22 states; the "Palestinian nation" is a fiction)

        For me,the fact that there are 22 Arab states is irrelevant to the argument at hand and merely serves as a red herring.It cannot be used as justification for a re-created Israel at the expense of another people,i.e.the Palestinian people.
        As to your wishful but false assertion that the Palestinian nation is a fiction,let me say that the Palestinian nation is both alive and well,thanks firstly to the excesses and racism of Zionism and later the occupation and oppression of this people by Jews.
        The ethnic cleansing of these people from their homeland and the denial of their birthright together with decades of suffering by Jews has forged this perhaps once historically mixed ethnic population into a nation.Even Jews are a somewhat mixed population as represented by the Diaspora.Go to Spain and the Jews look Spanish.Go to Norway and the Jews look Nordic.Go to Iran and the Jews look Iranian.

        "Do you post on Arab/Muslim sites telling them not to dehumanize Zionist Jews, or is dehumanization A-OK if it's for a "good cause"? Inquiring minds want to know."

        I have no interest in posting to Arab/Muslim sites.It is not the Palestinians nor Arabs that are occupying the Jewish homeland nor oppressing the Jewish people.No doubt they are guilty of their crimes and or sins e.g.woman's rights,human rights,suicide bombers targeting Israeli civilians,etc.but I leave that to others to address and resolve.

        • ziontruth

          "For me,the fact that there are 22 Arab states is irrelevant to the argument at hand"

          It is highly relevant. It means that the Arab nation has no legitimate grievance concerning the Jewish state. That's why the Arabs invented the Phakestinian nation.

          "As to your wishful but false assertion that the Palestinian nation is a fiction"

          As to your wishful but false assertion that the Phakestinians are a real nation, there is no evidence to back that up. A positive foundation such as ethnic origin, linguistic uniqueness or distinctive history is needed in order to make a nation. The Phakestinians have none of those: Ethnically, they're Arabs; linguistically, they speak Arabic dialects that have no special "Palestinian" features in the Levantine dialectal continuum; and they have no history but the failed attempts to wipe out the Jewish state.

          "The ethnic cleansing of these people from their homeland and the denial of their birthright together with decades of suffering by Jews has forged this perhaps once historically mixed ethnic population into a nation."

          No. Negative facts cannot make a nation. You need a positive foundation, as outlined above. Or maybe I'll get together with a group of friends of mine and declare ourselves a nation, and start demanding the rights of one. This is postmodern self-definition run amuck.

          "Even Jews are a somewhat mixed population as represented by the Diaspora.Go to Spain and the Jews look Spanish."

          Jewish national identity is not base on racial characteristics, so your point is moot.

          "I have no interest in posting to Arab/Muslim sites."

          Ah, you're a hypocrite. I thought so. Thanks for the confirmation.

          "It is not the Palestinians nor Arabs that are occupying the Jewish homeland nor oppressing the Jewish people."

          Au contraire. The Arabs are denying the Jewish nation to inhabit freely the entirety of the Land of Israel. The Arabs have 22 states covering a huge mass of language but can't tolerate one modestly-sized Jewish state. You side with the thief and oppressor against the innocent and righteous, despite what you may think.

          You think exactly like the Marxists on the Israeli-Arab conflict. Your stuff is the same as on Daily Kos. I don't care if you've fought Marxists in the past; for me, you and the Marxist anti-Zionists are one and the same.