The Specter of Palestine


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Last week another chapter of Israeli-Palestinian “peace talks” began. It hasn’t gone very far yet, and it still could all break down. But for those who see a sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza as an intolerable security threat to Israel, it’s enough to induce unease.

Imagine cutting two chunks out of New Jersey, adding up to almost one-fourth of its land mass, and setting up a deeply hostile statelet in them with a population nurtured in hatred for generations. Rocket firings, sniper fire, and terror incursions are some of the problems that spring to mind. Not to mention—particularly since this “New Jersey” is in the Middle East—alliances with enemy countries, which could include inviting such countries’ armies into its territory. Collusions involving sabotage or even WMD attacks are not at all far-fetched.

True, there has always been talk of the Palestinian state being “demilitarized.” But with current, purportedly moderate Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas having said he wouldn’t tolerate the presence of a single Jew—civilian or soldier—in his state, that would leave only (presumably Jew-free) international forces to monitor the supposed demilitarization.

Israel, however, has had a long and negative history with international “peacekeepers.” The latest egregious example is the complete failure of the enlarged UNIFIL force in southern Lebanon to prevent Hezbollah from rearming itself with tens of thousands of missiles since the 2006 war.

This time, however, it’s not shallow, malleable leaders like former prime minister Ehud Olmert or former foreign minister Tzipi Livni who are engaging in the Palestinian-state talk, but Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu with his far greater intellectual depth. One astute Israeli commentator, Israel Harel, claims Netanyahu has undergone the “conversion” and really believes in what he’s saying. It still seems more likely that Netanyahu is playing a carefully calibrated game aimed at managing the ongoing pressure from Washington. Even if so, his words further legitimize the notion of such a state and sow discomfort.

In other words, the specter of the Palestinian state may still be far off, but it’s hauntingly there at the fringes now. And in such a situation, one can only be profoundly grateful that about 300,000 Israelis now live in “settlements”—towns, villages, communities—in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank). Their presence simply makes it more difficult, perhaps even impossible, for the Palestinian state to arise. They are a natural bulwark against such a development.

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  • jacob

    I have a feeling that my comments are not "politically correct" enough to the liking of the censor and therefore, I feel the best I can do is to abstain from now and on to put my two cents in.

    Thanks anyway, FRONTPAGE

  • moshav

    The world does not require yet another corrupt, dysfunctional, and violent-prone arab state. Israel's 1.5 million arabs live in relative peace and harmony; why is it so difficult for 300,000 Jews to remain in Judea and Samaria where Jews have lived for nearly 3500 years? Their evacuation would reduce the population in these areas by a fifth and the economic cost to the arab inhabitants would be horrific. Wasn't it Abba Eban who once observed that the palestinians never lose an opportunity to lose an opportunity?

  • Beth

    Prophecy:

    Psa 83:4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. (Is this not so today?)

    The book of Islam (the Koran) forgot to mention Palestine for end time – and it should have – because the Book that Moses delivered did not forget to metion Palestine for end-time } Exd 15:14 – Known as the Song of Moses – The saints 'sing' this 'song' (prophecy) – Rev 15:3

    Moses has two other witnesses that agree with him: The prophets Joel and Isaiah – Joe 3:4 – Isa 14:31

    Continue….

  • Beth

    The Dead Sea Scrolls were placed in the caves long before the prophet of Islam came along and were not discovered until long after – 1947. The whole book of Isaiah was included in those scrolls:

    Isaiah 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone – in – his – appointed – times. (We shall see)

    The Koran never mentions the name Palestine. The name Israel is mentioned though. There is even a whole chapter devoted to "The children of Israel" which should lead all Muslims to ask "Who is Israel then?" seeing that he is a great father just by looking at the title of that chapter.

    But not once does the Koran ever mention the name Palestine.

    Continue….

    • aspacia

      Or Jerusalem

  • Beth

    Here is a question for the whole world (especially the Islamic world):

    Upon what Holy Spiritual Authrority does all of Islam DEMAND that the name Palestine be established in place of the name Israel? If any say "Allah" – they are liars.

    How wise is it to support Palestine – and then think of yourself still worthy to bow to God?

    The name Israel came from God – not men.

  • Beth

    Many will think this post is not important (or that it even matters) – but it is (and it does). And all who claim to be a Muslim, who believe (and desire) to worship the One True God – need to answer that important question – even if only to give the answer to themselves.

    Upon what Holy Spiritual Authrority does all of Islam DEMAND that the name Palestine be established in place of the name Israel?

    There is none (Truth be told).

  • John

    I regret ceding terms at the outset of this debate.

    Using the word 'settlements' seems self-defeating in the context of this debate.

  • Andres de Alamaya

    In baseball it is three and you're out. In real life among sensible and realistic people it is one and you're out, at best, give a scoundrel two chances. An old Chinese saying is: You do bad to me once, shame on you. You do bad to me twice, shame on me. Will Israel ever learn? The problem with Jews is that they are born with a sense of humor which has helped them overcome two thousand crappy years but tends to obfuscate reality which in this case is: YOU'VE WON! THEY TRIED TO EXTERMINATE YOU AND YOU BEAT THEM.
    (CONTINUED IN THE NEXT WINDOW)

  • Andres de Alamaya

    CONTINUED
    You don't need to show the world that you are good guys. You don't need to negotiate anything. You don't need a Commie Muslim president of America to tell you how to run your country. If the so-called Palestinians are not happy with their status quo, let them go to Islamic lands. Had they beaten you, you would be dead or living as slaves in your own country. Get them out of the West Bank and Gaza. Then import some good people. China and India are overcrowded. Indians and the Chinese love schooling and they don't teach their kids to hate in their schools. Populate the West Bank and Gaza with Asians. Like you, they are productive people and intelligent. Get real!

  • Tom

    The Palestinians have always been, and are still, merely fish-bait in the massive and mostly empty Arab lake. Without them, Jihad against the West would be nearly impossible, since the only other target besides Israel would be Western-run oil wells. It's doubtful they would destroy their golden goose. So they keep the uneducated Palestinians on a line, dangling in front of the West, as a lure and pretext to engage in endless Islamic Jihad. But the lure is trained:

    "Never" recognize Israel as an independent state, is rule #1. To make sure they follow the region's rules, they write it in their Charter. Hence, their Charter becomes a declaration of eternal conflict, aided and abetted and financed by others who likewise don't support Jewish independence.

    So Rule #1 in any Peace conference should be the absolute "pre-condition" that the Palestinian Charter be revised, as Arafat promised president Clinton he would do. The fact that Arafat did the exact opposite, even after getting a "Peace Prize," shows how safe any agreement with the Palestinians would be. They thanked the Nobel Committee by declaring an Intifada against their latest Peace partner. To know what will happen after any deals with them, just look at their hero – Yassir Arafat.

    Whether or not the Palestinians have the power to stand by their promises is the key question. They are minnows surrounded by by sharks – Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and even the EU – their bankers – who prefer the unpeaceful status quo. Have any of those bankers ever demanded an end to Palestinian terrorism, disarming them of missiles and suicide belt factories, smuggling tunnels, incitement, child training for conflict, or recognizing Israel? Ever? Until they do so, every "peace" conference is a charade, and meaningless.

    • aspacia

      Not true. The Qu'ran argues for violent Jihad against all infidels. Muslims argue they cannot reform Allah's word, hence the problem will continue.

  • USMCSniper

    As for the Palestinians, they are nothing more than the subsidized proxy terrorists of Iran who strap munitions on their own women and children and send them out on homicide-suicide missions to murder other women and children in markets, restuarants, and on school buses. The Palestinians by their open decalrations for the anihilation of Israel and the genocide of the Jewish people have forfeited their right to even exist let alone be given the satus of a state.

  • muchiboy

    "“settlements”—towns, villages, communities—in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank). Their presence simply makes it more difficult, perhaps even impossible, for the Palestinian state to arise. They are a natural bulwark against such a development."

    What brutal arrogance.Tens of thousands of European Jews colonize the homeland of the Palestinian people,effectively carry out the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians over decades,senselessly and immorally bomb these refugees,deny the birthright to their decedents,and now wish to deny them a fragmented and much reduced and livable state.I have to think that someday the Jewish people will be consumed by a collective guilt as were the decedents of Nazi Germany.Every step the Israeli's take is a step further from the fine and noble history of the Jewish people.I can only think that this shameful and wicked past(i.e.Zionism) and present collective behavior is an aberration that will be self correcting.The Palestinian people have suffered at the hands of the Israeli's and much of the Jewish Diaspora for far too long.The honorable, principled and moral legacy of the Jewish people continues to this day both within and without Israel as demonstrated by the Jewish anti-Zionists.These individuals represent the finest of both Judaism and humanity. Muchiboy

    • joelsk44039

      Palestinians?? They've only been a "people" since 1964!! So, how could you even think that these Arabs are a "natives" of the land and the Jews, who have had a near 3,000 year continuous presence in the land are interlopers?

      You're an idiot. …or worse yet, a Muslim.

    • MixMChess

      "Tens of thousands of European Jews colonize the homeland of the Palestinian people,effectively carry out the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians over decades,"

      As usual you are dead wrong and can't even get your numbers rights. Hundreds of thousands of Jews built and created Israel through the legal purchase of vacant and tenant-free land – no so-called Palestinians were dispossessed or "ethnically cleansed."

      Don't forget Palestinian populations have increased exponentially under Israeli rule, increasing 84% from 1993-2004 alone!.

      "senselessly and immorally bomb these refugees,"

      No, bombing terrorist operatives like Hamas is perfectly sensible and moral. What about the Palestinians that preach hate and declare that they want to drink the blood of Jews? What about the Palestinians that murder Israelis and Jewish targets worldwide? Care to condemn them?

      "deny the birthright to their decedents,"

      Do you even know what decedent means? You're proving that you're as dumb as I thought you were.

      "I have to think that someday the Jewish people will be consumed by a collective guilt as were the decedents of Nazi Germany."

      Probably not, considering that Jews have nothing to be guilty for. Why should Jews feel guilty for wanting to live unbeaten, unmolested and unterrorized? The Palestinians need to beg the Jews and the world for forgiveness for the murder, rape and terrorism that they have wrought.

      "The Palestinian people have suffered at the hands of the Israeli's and much of the Jewish Diaspora for far too long."

      I figured you would blame the Jews in the diaspora. Glad you finally made the connection so you have an excuse for your rampant antisemitism. The Palestinians have only suffered at the hands of themselves.

      Your brutally arrogant declaration is just pure nonsense. Learn the actual history and quit with the rhetoric and lies.

    • aspacia

      much, the Zionists purchased the land, and were continually massacred by Muslims. The genocide of Jews by Muslims is very long. Sharon walked from Russia to Israel, settled in a Jewish village, where all the Jews had been massacred, a village legally purchased from Muslims. Sharon, and his brethren successfully prevented another Muslim massacre of Jews.

      Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, et al, are all artificially created states. The only dispute regarding a new, artificial state is Israel. The Muslims are violent, racist supremacists.

      Why are you not screaming about the persecution of Buddhists, Christians and Jews in the Middle-East. What about the beheadings, maimings, and various other atrocities committed by Muslims against the infidels and other Muslims?

      Quit focusing on the only democracy in the Middle-East and focus on those who want you and me dead.

      You are already a Dhimmi.

  • poetcomic1

    Now, more than ever, Israel is implicitly part of the Arab world and the region. This is because the majority of Israeli Jews are now Sephardic ex-dhimmi refugees from the rest of the Arab world surviving centuries of degradation and even massacre. Far from being an 'alien' colony of European Jews, Israel is an enclave of REALindigenous refugees huddling together on a tiny piece of land for sheer survival. Not so the so-called 'Palestinians'.

  • muchiboy

    "“settlements”—towns, villages, communities—in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank). Their presence simply makes it more difficult, perhaps even impossible, for the Palestinian state to arise. They are a natural bulwark against such a development."

    What brutal arrogance.Tens of thousands of European Jews colonize the homeland of the Palestinian people,effectively carry out the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians over decades,senselessly and immorally bomb these refugees,deny the birthright to their decedents,and now wish to deny them a fragmented and much reduced and livable state.I have to think that someday the Jewish people will be consumed by a collective guilt as were the decedents of Nazi Germany.Every step the Israeli's take is a step further from the fine and noble history of the Jewish people.I can only think that this shameful and wicked past(i.e.Zionism) and present collective behavior is an aberration that will be self correcting.The Palestinian people have suffered at the hands of the Israeli's and much of the Jewish Diaspora for far too long.The honorable, principled and moral legacy of the Jewish people continues to this day both within and without Israel as demonstrated by the Jewish anti-Zionists.These individuals represent the finest of both Judaism and humanity. Muchiboy

    • aspacia

      much, similar to the Iranian Jackjob, you are an intolerant bigot. It is the Muslims who honor Hitler and still do. It is the Muslims who preach hate, murder and intolerance, not the Israelis.

      Israel allows gays into the military.
      Israel does not have capital punishment.
      Israel allows all faiths to be freely practiced.

      The Muslim dominant Middle-East executes gays, ignores honor murder, frequently stones, beheads and maims their brethren, and violently discriminates against all nonMuslims.

      You need to learn how to be rational. Israel is simply defending herself from violent Muslims.

  • muchiboy

    Me:Palestinian people have suffered at the hands of the Israeli's and much of the Jewish Diaspora for far too long.

    You:"I figured you would blame the Jews in the diaspora. Glad you finally made the connection so you have an excuse for your rampant antisemitism. The Palestinians have only suffered at the hands of themselves. "

    Me:Not a fair criticism,MixMChess.I'm sure most Jews in the Diaspora support Israel to some degree,so my criticism is not without merit.I do try to be careful in blaming the "Jews" as I am aware of the Chomsky's,etc.so I usually try to qualify the use.Muchiboy

  • muchiboy

    "premise that Israel does NOT cause any suffering of the so-called Palestinians. "

    I guess I can understand your denial,MixMChess.If you did acknowledge the reality and consequences of Zionism upon the Palestinian people,you would be in that unenviable position of being between a rock and a moral hard place.But neither myself nor the Palestinians put you and your people there.You only have yourself and human nature to blame.In the meantime future generations of Jewish and Palestinian children will continue to suffer and die.Muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "If you did acknowledge the reality and consequences of Zionism upon the Palestinian people,you would be in that unenviable position of being between a rock and a moral hard place."

      Again, you start from a faulty premise mixed with lies and propaganda. There is no reality or consequences that need to be acknowledged. Zionism and Israel have not caused the so-called Palestinians any harm. The Palestinians through their lust for Jewish blood, xenophobia and embrace of Islamism have created their own suffering. The minute Palestinians give up their hate and obsession with murdering Jews they would have their own state. As Dershowitz famously points out, today we could be celebrating the anniversary of the creation of a Palestinian state. Unfortunately, you know and I know that Palestinians don't want a state of their own they want to kill Jews and destroy Israel.

      By the way, you have absolutely no right to even talk about morals or tell me where my moral conscience lies. Especially considering you support the immoral and disgusting Pali-Nazis with their pursuit for an Islamist state free of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhits, gays, womens-rights, certain animals (like dogs and pigs), music and civil rights.

      "In the meantime future generations of Jewish and Palestinian children will continue to suffer and die."

      I reject your threat and suppositions, future generations of Israeli and Palestinian children only have success, opportunity and cooperation to look forward to:
      http://www.israelpolitik.org/2009/02/02/israeli-p

      Of course idiots such as yourself want to destroy any cooperation and future success for Israeli and Palestinian children. If you truly cared about the Palestinian children you would promote and support such cooperation. Too bad your hatred for Israel and Jews is greater than your love for future generations of children (Palestinian and Israeli included).

      • muchiboy

        "Of course idiots such as yourself want to destroy any cooperation and future success for Israeli and Palestinian children. If you truly cared about the Palestinian children you would promote and support such cooperation."

        Before there can be peace there need be cooperation,yes,MixMChess.But cooperation needs to begin with the aggressor,the Jews,acknowledging the losses of their victims,the Palestinian people.My God,man,you can't even acknowledge the Palestinian people much less their losses.You have eyes,don't you?And even if you don't like to acknowledge them,the fact that the entire world,including your very own president and country does,should tell you something.Get your head out of your A-hole….,MixMChess,it's dark and unhealthy in there.
        No matter how you look at it,the Jews in Israel are in a very difficult position,not unlike the whites in South Africa and Rhodesia.But again,most Jews invited themselves there uninvited and unwelcomed and have no right except that of might to write and dictate the terms of surrender and settlement to the Palestinians.For a foreign (European) people who occupied the land ,largely and effectively cleansed that land of her non Jewish people to become the majority,continue by hook and by crook to further and shamefully take Palestinian land ,you have the arrogance to demand they accept what miserable crumbs you throw them and to be satisfied with Jews getting the most and best.Again,the arrogance,the shame.MixMChess,you must take handfuls of sleeping pills to have a restive sleep.Either that or you need a conscience transplant.Muchiboy

        • MixMChess

          "Before there can be peace there need be cooperation,yes,MixMChess."

          There already is cooperation, go back and look at the link I provided in my post. I find it amusing that you scoff at real cooperation that is happening now… its idiots like you that want Palestinian children to suffer just to spite the Jews. Good job buddy!

          "But cooperation needs to begin with the aggressor,the Jews,acknowledging the losses of their victims,the Palestinian people."

          I reject your terms completely. The Israelis (or as you singled out: the Jews. Again ignoring the millions of other Zionists world-wide) have nothing to acknowledge for and don't owe any apologies. Arabs rejected peace and INVADED Israel in 1948. Arabs again INVADED and ATTACKED Israel in 1967 and 1973, not to mention the countless terrorism and suicide attacks in between and up through today. If anything the Palestinians should start by apologizing for the murder, rape and terrorism they have inflicted on the Jews and the world.

          "My God,man,you can't even acknowledge the Palestinian people much less their losses.You have eyes,don't you? And even if you don't like to acknowledge them,the fact that the entire world,including your very own president and country does,should tell you something.Get your head out of your A-hole….,MixMChess,it's dark and unhealthy in there."

          This is classic pot calling the kettle black. The Palestinians were invented in 1964 by Yassir Arafat. I am willing to support Israel in its peace efforts. You refuse to acknowledge that the Jews have legitimate (historical, legal and moral) claims to the land of Israel. You sir need to take your head out of your ass. You always talk generally about dispossession or colonialism. You don't even know what those terms mean and you can't provide one fact that supports your ridiculous claims. Get a clue!

          "No matter how you look at it,the Jews in Israel are in a very difficult position,not unlike the whites in South Africa and Rhodesia."

          No, the situations are not similar at all. The Israeli Arabs are full citizens who enjoy equal rights under the law, are represented in the Knesset, serve in high-level government positions and on the Supreme Court. In apartheid S. Africa, blacks couldn't vote and "were not citizens of the country in which they formed the overwhelming majority of the population. Laws dictated where they could live, work and travel." In S. Africa, the government killed blacks who protested against its policies, whereas Israel allows freedom of movement, assembly and speech by all citizens including Arabs. Some of the Israel's harshest critics are Israeli Arabs and Israeli Arab groups formed inside Israel.

        • MixMChess

          "But again,most Jews invited themselves there uninvited and unwelcomed and have no right except that of might to write and dictate the terms of surrender and settlement to the Palestinians."

          What a load of crap and lies. First of all, Jews LEGALLY purchased the land – its theirs fair and square and they have a right to do whatever they want with it. Its a basic real estate concept (of course I expect basic anything to fly way over your head). Second, Arabs actually invited Jews to settle in the land because of the economic interests the Jews brought with them.

          Emir Faisal, son of Sherif Hussein, the leader of the Arab revolt against the Turks, signed an agreement with Chaim Weizmann and other Zionist leaders during the 1919 Paris Peace Conference encouraging collaboration between Jews and Arabs and encouraged immigration of Jews into the region.

          "For a foreign (European) people who occupied the land ,largely and effectively cleansed that land of her non Jewish people to become the majority,"

          You need to take your head out of your ass. Jews are native to Israel, even the European Zionists were simply returning to the land of their ancestors which was illegally stolen and occupied by Arabs.

          Also just stop with the ethnic cleansing rhetoric. Its getting old and you know it is clear defamation against Israel (or Jews as you like to put it). The Palestinian population has increased EXPONENTIALLY under Israeli rule seeing an 84% increase from 1994-2003 alone.

          "continue by hook and by crook to further and shamefully take Palestinian land"

          Yep, those Jews with their crooked noses are always shysters. Boy, I'll tell you…

          "you have the arrogance to demand they accept what miserable crumbs you throw them and to be satisfied with Jews getting the most and best."

          You're an idiot. Have you actually looked at a map of Israel? The Negev which is a inhospitable DESERT makes up more than 50% of Israel proper's land area. The hilly W. Bank, which the Palestinians occupy, makes up most of the naturally FERTILE area in the region. Only through technological innovation have Israel's been able to make to make the arid areas "bloom" and hospitable.

          "Again,the arrogance,the shame.MixMChess,you must take handfuls of sleeping pills to have a restive sleep.Either that or you need a conscience transplant."

          You don't tell me what I need. This is laughable especially coming from someone who instinctively supports the shameful and immoral Pali-Nazis despite not knowing an inkling of the history of the region or the conflict.

  • muchiboy

    "you know and I know that Palestinians don't want a state of their own they want to kill Jews and destroy Israel. "

    No,I don't know that,MixMChess.Arabs and Jews have co-existed in Palestine for centuries,longer even.Sure,Zionism,war,colonialism,occupation,ethnic cleansing,terrorism,Islamic fundamentalism,etc.have made for difficult relationships and hard and cynical times,but these may be overcome in time and with effort,good faith, fairness and justice.As for the children,Israeli's put their own children at risk and in harms way by continuing the occupation and historical crimes against the Palestinian people,just as the Palestinians put their children at harm by their various acts of terrorism.Muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "No,I don't know that,MixMChess."

      Yes you do, why else would the so-called Palestinians reject the offer for a land of their own and peace in 2000? The Israelis started negotiations by offering 95% of the W. Bank and all of Gaza, and Arafat walked away without even a counter-offer! As recently as 2005 and 2006, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert were willing to give the Arabs even MORE land and Israel was rewarded with more terrorism. You can't blame the Palestinians intransigence on bad negotiation skills. The simple fact is if the Palestinians truly wanted their own country they could have had it already.

      "Arabs and Jews have co-existed in Palestine for centuries,longer even."

      Wrong on several accounts, Jews in the region were subject to the embarrassing and disgusting second-hand dhimmi status by Arab and then Turkish colonialists and occupiers. To add insult to injury, Jews suffered under pogroms and similar riots and attacks from Arab invaders.

      ".Sure,Zionism,war,colonialism,occupation,ethnic cleansing,terrorism,Islamic fundamentalism,etc.have made for difficult relationships and hard and cynical times"

      That's just it, But for Arab xenophobia, Zionism would not cause any difficulty in the region. As previously proven, the early Zionists went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in areas where Arabs might be displaced. Additionally, early Israelis BEGGED the Arabs to be part of the Jewish state as EQUAL citizens:

      The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this appeal on October 2, 1947: "We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals."

      "As for the children,Israeli's put their own children at risk and in harms way by continuing the occupation and historical crimes against the Palestinian people"

      So basically what you are saying is Israel's very existence is an open invitation for Arabs to murder Israeli children. I am sorry but Jews are allowed self-determination and self-preservation. Why is it so criminal for Jews to want to LIVE that they must be met with a death sentence from Hamas, Pali-Nazis and morons like you?

  • muchiboy

    "Why is it so criminal for Jews to want to LIVE that they must be met with a death sentence from Hamas, Pali-Nazis and morons like you? "

    We're no morons,MixMChess,otherwise we would not be a threat to Israel.Anyway,the real crimes against the Jews have been perpetrated by us,the western Europeans and for no good reason.But you are wrong if you believe that Zionism was an innocent and justified adventure.In it's own way it was as criminal as the Nazi's rounding up the Jews and putting them in boxcars.And while there were no death camps or Warsaw ghettos(let us skip over Shatila and Sabra and the bombings of innocent children in Gaza) awaiting the Palestinian refugees,the occupation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people was inhumane ,shameful and criminal.
    Like the Europeans who occupied and colonized Southern Africa,the Jews in Israel/Palestine certainly add value to that region,as they do where ever they live.And the Palestinians would be fools to allow that loss.However,I seen it happen Rhodesia and it is a risk for Jews too given the nature of your conflict.But I repeat the European Jews invited themselves there and are largely responsible for the conflict and resultant ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.You can deny the accusations but they are a matter of historical not biblical record.Someday we will all have to live within one border and the sooner the better.As I said before,after any fair settlement both Israelis and Palestinians will feel as if they each had a limb amputated,but a two state solution will demand no less a sacrifice.The ideal would be a single state where both Jew and Palestinian can have it all.Muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "We're no morons,MixMChess,otherwise we would not be a threat to Israel"

      I beg to differ… by "threat" I think its safe to assume you cast your lots with the like of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. What a humanitarian you are!

      "But you are wrong if you believe that Zionism was an innocent and justified adventure.In it's own way it was as criminal as the Nazi's rounding up the Jews and putting them in boxcars."

      Zionism is completely innocent and justified under historical, legal and moral grounds. Palestinian-ism on the other and stems from a xenophobic hatred of Jews first and not from any real concern for the so-called Palestinians.

      I am glad you brought up the Holocaust and again tried to falsely implicate Jews as Nazis. Get this through your thick skull, the Nazis' objective was the systematic extermination of every Jew in Europe. Israel is seeking peace with its Palestinian neighbors. Over one million Arabs live as free and equal citizens in Israel. In the W. Bank and Gaza, Palestinians live under the civil administration of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority respectively. There is and never has been a plan to persecute, exterminate, or expel the Palestinian people. That said, Hamas and the PA call for the extermination and expulsion of Jews in the region. Heck, Hamas goes one step further and calls for the extermination of worldwide Jewry. Good thing you support the "good guys" huh?

      "And while there were no death camps or Warsaw ghettos(let us skip over Shatila and Sabra and the bombings of innocent children in Gaza) awaiting the Palestinian refugees,the occupation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people was inhumane ,shameful and criminal. "

      Another blatant lie, the Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres at Sabra and Shatila. Again, there is and never has been any ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people by Israel. You need to get past this rhetoric and false propaganda.

      Of course, if you really cared about ethnic cleansing of Palestinians you should be furious with Jordan which killed over 25,000 Palestinians in one month, which is nearly five times as many casualties than Israel has caused since before 1948.

      "But I repeat the European Jews invited themselves there and are largely responsible for the conflict and resultant ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people."

      And I repeat, you are full of crap and spewing Pali-Nazi propaganda. Pull your head out of your ass, there has and never will be an ethnic cleansing committed by Israel against any peoples including the so-called Palestinians.

      "You can deny the accusations but they are a matter of historical not biblical record."

      Nonsense. You can't even provide facts to support your claims. Classic Pali-Nazi propaganda bull-crap.

      "Someday we will all have to live within one border and the sooner the better.As I said before,after any fair settlement both Israelis and Palestinians will feel as if they each had a limb amputated,but a two state solution will demand no less a sacrifice.The ideal would be a single state where both Jew and Palestinian can have it all."

      Looks like you're talking out of both sides of your moth again (a technique you no doubt learned from Arafat and the other Pali-Nazis). You have previously declared that Israel needs to be "judenrein." Now suddenly you advocate for a one-state solution? Either way you want a "Palestinian" state where Jews are dhimmis in their own historical land. Its funny, because all studies indicate that Palestinians would benefit from their own state SIDE BY SIDE with Israel. Of course your hatred for Jews trumps any real concern for Palestinian nationhood.

  • muchiboy

    "In S. Africa, the government killed blacks who protested against its policies, whereas Israel allows freedom of movement, assembly and speech by all citizens including Arabs."

    I will concede that Palestinian citizens of Israel enjoy the benefits of living in a "democracy".And it doesn't take a genius to realize that life in Israel is better then life in most Arab countries,although at one time Lebanon was more then tolerable.
    The fact that 20% of Israelis (of Palestinian nationality) enjoy these democratic rights and benefits ignores and disguises the fact that millions of Palestinians are denied their human rights including their birth right,right of return and homeland.Your argument that Palestinians in Israel enjoy full rights means nothing,except to emphasize the misery of the vast majority of your Palestinian victims.Unless and until justice and dignity are returned to all Palestinians dispossessed by occupation and war,claims that Israel is a full democratic state will be a mere deceitful sham.

    "Either way you want a "Palestinian" state where Jews are dhimmis in their own historical land."

    I don't expect Jews to be dhimmis' in any settlement,MixMChess,single state or otherwise.Are the Christians of Lebanon any ones dhimmis?
    I would agree that certain aspects of Islam need to be modernized so that our advances in human rights and globalization can be enjoyed by all,including those in the Arab and Muslim world.

    "Of course your hatred for Jews trumps any real concern for Palestinian nationhood. "

    MixMChess,if you're not blaming me for being antisemitic,you're accusing liberal Jews who argue against Zionism or for the human rights of Palestinians of being self-hating.You'll never go forward with such a blinkered attitude.Muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "millions of Palestinians are denied their human rights including their birth right,right of return and homeland."

      That's just it, Palestinians have no "birth right" or clam to the land. Look at the basic history, the land was essentially vacant before the arrival of the Jews. In 1867 Mark Twain wrote the following of Israel:

      "There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent (valley of Jezreel, Galilea); not for thirty miles in either direction… One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee… Nazareth is forlorn… Jericho lies a mouldering ruin… Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation… untenanted by any living creature… A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent, mournful expanse… a desolation… We never saw a human being on the whole route… Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil had almost deserted the country… Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes… desolate and unlovely…"

      Of course, there was always a Jewish presence in the region and Jerusalem always maintained a Jewish majority. Further, look at what the the report of the British Royal Commission had to say about the area in 1913:

      "The area was underpopulated and remained economically stagnant UNTIL THE ARRIVAL of the first Zionist pioneers in the 1880's, who came to rebuild the Jewish land… Jewish development of the country also attracted large numbers of other immigrants – both Jewish and Arab. The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport by camels and carts… Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere to be seen… The plows used were of wood… The yields were very poor… The sanitary conditions in the village [Yabna] were horrible… Schools did not exist… The rate of infant mortality was very high… The western part, toward the sea, was almost a desert… The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted by their inhabitants".

      So as you can see the land was largely vacant and unoccupied by anyone, let alone Arabs. The vast majority of the Arabs arrived during and after WWI when the Zionists had already made the land habitable and provided economic opportunities as described above.

      Interestingly enough the Arabs and PLO demanded the United Nations manipulate their refugee standards so that any Arab that spent TWO YEARS in the region before 1948, with or WITHOUT PROOF, is considered a "Palestinian", as well as all the descendants of that person into perpetuity. In 1967, PLO leaders fabricated the so-called "right of return" demanding Palestinians come back to the land that they occupied "before June 1967," and rejected the same "right of return" back to land where they lived only 50 years before (around 1917 WWI era), "because if they agree[d] to do so, they [must] settle back in Iraq, Syria, Arabia, Libya, Egypt" and other surrounding Arab nations.

    • MixMChess

      "Your argument that Palestinians in Israel enjoy full rights means nothing,except to emphasize the misery of the vast majority of your Palestinian victims.Unless and until justice and dignity are returned to all Palestinians dispossessed by occupation and war,claims that Israel is a full democratic state will be a mere deceitful sham."

      If Palestinians living in the W. Bank and Gaza are living in "misery" it is the fault of the PA and Hamas who govern those areas respectfully. Don't forget, Israel has tried to build economic opportunities in the W. Bank and provided over one ton in aid per resident to Gaza. Israel does everything in its power to create and build a sustainable Palestinian state. This doesn't even get into the billions in aid the Palestinians receive from the Islamic Bloc, the EU and the US. If the Palestinians squander these opportunities by engaging in terrorism and xeonophobia than the Palestinians are to blame for their own misery – end of story.

      And again, the so-called Palestinian disposssession from their land is a merely a myth and further mere dispossession in of itself does not cause one misery. The 800,000 + Jews in Arab countries were "dispossessed" from their land and expelled and they have been able to make new lives in Israel (as well as other ares) just fine. The Palestinians continued whining about their supposed "rights" stems from a desire to defame Israel first and foremost, rather than any real concern about their current well-being and building a state of their own.

      "Are the Christians of Lebanon any ones dhimmis?"

      Not yet, but Hezbollah and other radical Islamic groups are quickly trying to change that. Don't forget that up to a few years ago Lebanon was illegally occupied by a Syria, a muslim country, and many still argue that Syria exerts control over much of the politics in Lebanon.

      "you're accusing liberal Jews who argue against Zionism or for the human rights of Palestinians of being self-hating."

      Not quite, I argue that some far-left Jews who argue for Israel's destruction are antisemetic, folks like Noam Chomsky, Norm Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe fall under this category. Don't forget, many of the staunchest Zionists have long argued for Palestinian rights and a Palestinian state, just look at Alan Dershowitz and even Israeli politicians like Ehud Barak and Shimon Peres!

  • muchiboy

    After all is said and done,or not,MixMChess,you and I,with some serious and differing opinions are still debating these important issues,more or less rationally,instead of shooting at one another.
    While there are still important issues today,including the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and global warming,we have to hope that in the long run things will only get better.There will always be conflict and at times humanity may find itself at the brink,but we have always come through.In some ways we may hope the worst is behind us e.g.the Holocaust.While I cringe at "Next Year in Jerusalem" for what it has brought the Palestinian people,I am hopeful that "Never Forget" and"Never Again" will prevail,for the sake of Jews and humanity.For me,and it is not intended to be hurtful,may I say on behalf of the Palestinian people,"Next Year in East Jerusalem" and in future years,when Jew and Arab can be bound by the bonds of trust and prosperity,"Next fifty years in Jerusalem,both Israeli and Palestinian.Shalom,MixMChess.Muchiboy

  • freedemocracy
  • muchiboy

    ""self-hating" Jews like Chomsky and Finkelstein who seek to destroy the Jewish people. "

    In rejecting the likes of Chomsky,Finkelstein,etc.,you reject the finest examples of your people and the Jewish tradition.While I reject your convenient and paranoid accusations of racism and antisemitism,your self admitted rejection of the long held characteristics of a liberal Jewish tradition noted for it's rigorous critical analysis of moral,scientific,etc.,thought is truly regrettable and disappointing.Muchiboy

  • MixMChess

    "In rejecting the likes of Chomsky,Finkelstein,etc.,you reject the finest examples of your people and the Jewish tradition."

    Please, your suggestion that Chomsky and Finkelstein are the finest examples of Jews is laughable at pest. The openly reject their "Jewish-ness" and are atheists who follow the religion of leftism (Marxism/anarchism for Chomsky and fascism for Finkelstein) NOT Judaism. Suggesting they are fine representatives of Judaism is like suggesting that David Duke is a fine representative of Christianity.

    "While I reject your convenient and paranoid accusations of racism and antisemitism"

    Then why do you only call out Jewish Zionists and ignore Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Islamic Zionists? Why of all countries do you only single out Israel for condemnation of supposed wrongdoing?

    ",your self admitted rejection of the long held characteristics of a liberal Jewish tradition noted for it's rigorous critical analysis of moral,scientific,etc.,thought is truly regrettable and disappointing."

    Never have I rejected rigorous critical analysis of moral and scientific thought. Don't try putting words or ideas in my mouth. You can't even get basic historical facts straight let along type a coherent thought. Get a clue pal.