Dershowitz vs. Hanson on the ADL and the Ground Zero Mosque

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Aside from the fact that Hiroshima was a military target, and its bombing helped to end the war and save thousands of lives in the Pacific who would otherwise have been doomed by the ongoing Japanese butchery in Asia and a planned invasion of the Japanese mainland, no one has urged that there be a Southern Baptist Church or an American Methodist Church near the Ground Zero shrine as a sign of postwar harmony; such a proposal might be well intended, but it would be also grotesque.

3) Much has been made that America shows her strength and tolerant values by allowing such a symbolic structure near Ground Zero, but one wonders in a huge city like New York, why Ground Zero at all? While we believe it may reveal our liberality, our enemies, again fairly or not, will see the mosque as a sort of strong horse symbolism, in which those who evoked Islam to murder thousands of Americans found closure by tearing down godless towers and hence paving the way for Islam’s shrine to rise nearby, as in their frequent crackpot al Qaeda triumphalist historicizing about the minarets on Santa Sophia or the Al-Aqsa Mosque atop the site of the first and second Jewish temples.

Surely would not the well-intentioned Muslim community of New York wish to move their proposed site just a bit further from the site of 9/11, in order not to enhance the propaganda of a crazed minority that so unfairly tarnishes their efforts at ecumenicalism?

Instead, one can already see that supporters of the mosque advertising the Ground Zero connection, but, again, for what purpose? Again, they must know that a small fanatical minority of a billion Muslims—that is, many millions—will gain confidence and encouragement from such a gratuitous act. As Lawrence Wright showed in the Looming Tower, Atta, bin Laden, Zawahiri, and others were iconic killers who, like the Taliban who in 2001 blew up the Buddhist monuments at Bamyan, chose their targets largely for their symbolic capital.

I predict that within a year of the mosque’s construction, there will be videos, posters, and pamphlets all over the Middle East, juxtaposing the minarets of the mosque with the Ground Zero memorial wreckage—shown as purported proof how such mass murder can demoralize a beaten people into bowing to the Islam of the killers. Few have commented on the security aspects of such an act, but surely it will give added confidence to those who wish to tear down and incinerate more American towers and landmarks.

4) The war against radical Islam is ongoing, as we see in a resurgent Taliban, and the recent Hasan murdering, the Abdul Mutallab attempt, and the Times Square bombing. Such a controversial decision surely can be postponed until the Islamists cease their attempts at attacking the West in general and New York in particular, given that the war so often hinges on symbolism, propaganda, and the perceived strength or weakness of the West in standing up to radical Islamists.

As we have seen from the recent rude reception in India of President Obama’s representative to the Muslim world, the response to the Obama Cairo speech, the various anti-American and anti-Semitic rantings out of Turkey and Pakistan, both the recipients of recent lavish American attention and cash, and the continual al Qaeda threatening—what we consider to be outreach and tolerance are often seen as both weakness and an invitation to even greater demands for apologies and concessions.

As it is, the current asymmetry is absurd: a Christian would incur a death sentence for building a church in much of the Middle East, Arabs vote and express themselves more freely in the Zionist Entity than almost elsewhere in the Middle East, and current U.S. outreach to Muslims and liberal immigration policies are unrivaled in the Western world, and certainly unheard of in places like Russia, China, and much of Latin America or Africa. The rest of the world, not the U.S, has a long way to go in matters of religious tolerance.

The location of the mosque is a legal, though deliberately tasteless, act that will have the effect of encouraging radical extremists in their ongoing efforts to attack icons of modern Western liberal society. Cui bono?

Victor Davis Hanson is an NRO contributor, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, the editor of Makers of Ancient Strategy: From the Persian Wars to the Fall of Rome, and the author of the just released, The Father of Us All: War and History, Ancient and Modern.


Dershowitz responds: The question is not whether it is wise or in good taste to build a Muslim community center so close to Ground Zero but whether a Jewish antidiscrimination organization should take a public position in opposition.

This is not a Jewish issue. Jewish opinion is understandably divided. The ADL has an important but limited mandate. It should not dilute its role by becoming involved in trying to get the state to interfere with religious freedom.

Abe Foxman has now wisely said that the decision has been made and the ADL will not try to stop the project from going forward. That is the proper response.

Hanson: As I noted, I have no position on the ADL decision; apparently its interest had something to do with the rabid anti-Semitism of radical Islamists, the occasional point in Islamist literature that New York hosts the largest number of Jews of any city in the world; and a now tired history of many self-described “moderate” and “mainstream” mosques and Muslim communities in either disseminating or turning a blind eye toward pro forma anti-Semitic hate literature.

My interest is mostly in noting that a supposedly ecumenical Islamic group is being disingenuous in building a mosque near ground zero—less than candid in the sources and methods of its funding, less than candid about the propaganda value that such an unnecessary location will have for radical Islamists in their ongoing efforts to attack the West, and rather hypocritical in pushing for a polarizing site while calling for religious harmony and reconciliation.

In theory, this issue (especially the history of many of those behind the mosque site), like the growing tensions with Iran, Venezuela, the foiled domestic terrorist plots in New York, growing polarization with Turkey and Pakistan, and a host of other issues are American concerns, not Jewish issues per se. But what makes all of them perhaps of some interest to groups like the ADL is their shared theme of anti-Semitism, and the historical role that such insidious and incremental hatred has in leading to more overt violence against Jews.

So, yes, of course, the mosque will get built. We will praise ourselves for our tolerance and liberality; voice the accustomed and now scripted condemnation of the supposedly Neanderthal Right for its unsophisticated and bigoted opposition—and then in due time we will read some expose of the ties of some of the architects of this sick project to radical Islamist groups, as we hear the mosque heralded throughout the radical Middle East as proof of the ultimate victory of the 9/11 mass murderers.

And, yes, within that sick chest-thumping, there will also be the accustomed hatred of “Jews and crusaders”.  All that I think makes the issue of some interest to the ADL in this lose/lose conundrum.

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  • Larry

    Almost three thousand innocent people were murdered by muslims at Ground Zero, More than eight thousand American service men and women were killed by muslims. Four hundred American citizens were held captive in Iran for more than a year. Muslims have murdered more muslims than were killed in all the wars since 1948 with Israel.
    See what would happen if Christians tried to build a church in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt or any muslim country. It would never happen. Ask American soldiers who risk their lives daily trying to bring democracy to muslim countries what they think of building a mosque at ground Zero. Mayor Bromberg has his own political and financial reasons for wanting this. It has nothing to do with freedom of religion. There are other places to build a mosque.

  • george gaudio

    if this mosque is to be built let's build a Hooters next door, a rib joint on the other side & a
    dog kennel across the street. infidels have rights in america too.

    • michiganruth

      you know what? I actually love this idea. the Muzzies would threaten to cut off some infidel heads, and Mayor Bloomberg would castigate us for not being tolerant to our Islamic buddies. Eric Holder would swoop into town with a lawsuit against the infidels and Al Sharpton would organize a protest.

      I say a dog grooming business on one side, and a Tony Roma's on the other. boo-yah!

  • BS1977

    NEver forget liberals like Dershowitz and Bloomberg live in an "intellectual" world…talking, discussion, school studies, books, abstract thoughts and words about things they never encournter…..fighting, protecting ones family from marauding bands of genocidal killers (Sudan), watching bombs blow up their neighbors in markets, seeing their nation torn apart by Islam (Lebanon, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan), seeing women in shrouds, kept in virtual slavery without any rights….etc etc… to liberal intellectuals, it's all news articles they might comment on….nothing more. To them a mosque at Ground Zero is not an insult or a provocation…no, it's just a legal matter, an issue for discussion and shrugging acceptance. This is why Michael Savage said, "Liberalism is a mental disorder/" Liberalism refuses to see the real world….instead, sets up an idealized, abstract intellectual world of moral equivalency, respected rights, treaties and all the rest of the delusions…..

  • imnokuffar

    We, the Muslims go into the Democratic sphere in order to acquire weapons from its arsenal. We become Lords, MP's, Councillors and Officials of all descriptions. We do this to paralyze Democracy with its own assistance. If Democracy is stupid enough to give us unlimited immigration, benefits, expenses and credibility for providing this service then that is its affair. We'll take any legal and sometimes illegal means to revolutionise and undermine the existing situation. If we succeed in putting 1000 or 2000 agitators and radicals into positions of power then the state itself will supply and finance our fighting machinery. One should not believe that parliamentarism is our goal. We come like the wolf tearing into the flock of sheep, that is how we come. Now you Dhimmis have opened the door, we will pour through it.____This is plagiarised from a speech given by Goebbels in 1928.____

  • imnokuffar

    I think what gets me is the fact that the Muslims say that this thing will be a cultural centre. What culture ? I suppose they could provide music, dancing and art, however there is a slight problem. All these things are Hallal. So what will we get ? Perhaps they can stage stonings, female genital mutilation, Burqua parades, authentic hallal ritual slaughter, people chopping the hands off thieves, hangings, shootings, rocket attacks and perhaps if we are very lucky a Muslim blowing himself up with the aid of a suicide vest. Muslim culture ? Don't make me laugh !

  • trickyblain

    Hanson is mistaken in one regard — there are indeed Shinto shrines within blocks of the Arizona memorial.

  • Uzitiger

    Alan Dershowitz is a self hating Jewish liberal who does NOT understand what Islam is and its aspirations to turn the world into an Islamic caliphate similar to the Taliban. Building a mosque near the Ground Zero is an insult to the victims and shows how Muslims are showing their victory over the American infidels. They have built mosques on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. They turned the cathedral in Istanbul into a mosque and in India over Hindu temples where angry Hindus took hammers and destroyed the Islamic insult to their faith after 400 years. I'm still waiting for angry Jews to destroy the Al Aqsa and Golden Dome mosques.

  • joeblough

    Bloomberg's endorsement of the mosque is plain treason and should be prosecuted in a court of law.

    Preferably followed by an extremely punitive sentence.

  • lovezion

    TO: Reason for Life:

    "If America is so weak that we cannot withstand an insult without sacrificing the First Amendment, then perhaps we don't deserve the liberty that the Founders sought to establish. "

    My goodness! Stop wasting our time with cheap philosophies that fit better in the mouths of the leftists/liberals/progressives, whatever they call themselves nowadays! Sometimes a dilemma will be resolved by studying each case by each case rather than throwing them all into one big bag, like a zombie that walks over everything! Arab muslims and all other muslims will be attacking us for for the sake of attacking because they are such primitive savages and not because we do this or that.

    I take my hat to ADL for taking the RIGHT position on this matter! When oh when will people decide on studying the separate matters and not go on like a zombie walking over everything???

  • ObamaYoMoma

    The most effective arguments for building the ground zero supremacist mega mosque the Muslims and their Leftist allies are using is the religious freedom argument and the argument that if Muslims can’t build mosques, then Christians and Jews will not be able to build churches and synagogues too.

    However, everyone against the building of the ground zero supremacist mega mosque are missing a really great opportunity to expose what Islam really is when they fail to challenge those religious freedom arguments head on, since Islam besides being a religion, is also a very radical form of totalitarianism that seeks world domination. Hence, you can’t dissect Islam and take only a tiny part of it, while at the same time you ignore the greatest part of it to circumvent the constitution. You must take Islam in totality for what it really is, a totalitarian theo-political ideology with the main goal and sole purpose of subjugating the world via the imposition of Sharia, and no such system is protected under the first amendment of the constitution or any other amendment for that matter.

    Indeed, every time that Islam is being referred to as being a religion only, a patriotic American should insist on clarifying what Islam really is. If we keep allowing this inaccurate perception of Islam to go unchallenged, then we may as well submit to dhimmitude, because that is what in essences will happen.

    Moreover, on the religious aspects of Islam, we should also not let even that part go unchallenged, as Islam in stark contrast to faith-based religions is also the only religion of submission in the world, whereby all Muslims must submit to the will of Allah, i.e., Sharia, the divine will of Allah. Then lets remind everyone what Sharia is, a harsh totalitarian legal system that institutionalizes discrimination against females and non-Muslims and that also incorporates a system of draconian punishments such as stonings, amputations, and beheadings.

    Not only that, but the religion of Islam also forbids the freedom of conscience under the pain of death. Hence, a Muslim can’t leave the religion of Islam as that is murtaad (apostasy), which is a very serious offense in Islam that is punished by death. Furthermore, a Muslim can’t even question the tenets of their religion, as that is blasphemy, an offense under Islam also punishable under the pain of death.

    Indeed, unless we are prepared to meet the freedom of religion arguments head on then we will never stop the impending Islamization of our society. Therefore, we must oppose the building of the ground zero supremacist mega mosque not only because it is a symbol of Muslim supremacism and an indignation to the victims of 9/11, but also because Islam is not just a religion, since it is also a very radical form of totalitarianism that seeks world domination. Don’t believe me? Hell, just look inside every Muslim country in the world today and tell me what you see!

  • insecticide

    How about a memorial honoring SS stormtroopers next to Yad Vashem in Israel?

  • max power

    Mr. Dershowitz is like many Jewish people who will bend over backwards in order to prove they are fair.

    Sadly they only prove they are weak and insecure. Since there are many like him I fear the fate or Israel will be ugly.

    What is missing from his argument is that most New Yorkers (cab drivers exempt) do not want the mosque …what about their rights ? They do have a dog in this fight whether Dirtshowitz likes it or not.

  • suzyq

    Hasn't anyone noticed? Alan Dershowitz is a liberal. He always argues against any position which is less liberal than his own. He cannot help himself. He may pretend to be loyal to the Jewish people, but his true loyalty is to progressivism, and his own image as a defender of the downtrodden, or whatever. RJ of NM is right – Hanson has the whole of western history behind him. Also, current realities.

    Dershowitz and Bloomburg are bad for the Jews. Isn't there someone out there who will investigate this commission that approved the building of the mosque? I strongly suspect there was a lot of petro-dollars paid out, possibly in cash, to get this thing thru. Either that or New Yorkers really are as dumb as they appear (after all they elected Bloomburg for mayor and were represented by Shumer and Clinton in the Senate).

  • Arnold

    Let us not forget that it was Muslims who flew the planes into the WTC causing the deaths of 3000 Americans. It was not a military maneuver. They were civilians. They were part of the radical Muslim group wishing to demoralize or conquer the "Great Satan". Muslims are against Christianity, cannot live alongside Christians in their own country, nor wish to live alongside Christians anywhere else. The people wishing to build the Mosque are civilian Muslims claiming to a peaceful mission while denying their affiliation to that radical faction of Islam, but they have yet to prove that there is no connection financially or religiously. That group has yet to openly condemn radical Islamic al Queda operations. This is America founded on Christian principles, still considered a Christian Nation, and most of the average people all across this country appear to be against allowing such a "piss on you" monument to be built next to what is considered a site of an Islamic attack against our principles.

  • J.S.

    George Jonas wrote an excellent commentary in the National Post, titled: "A strange way to promote 'understanding'". He argues that we don't have to give credence to their "phony rationale" about "building understanding" of Islam. Unless, of course, the building of this mosque at/near Ground Zero entails "understanding" that Islam is a triumphalist religion with zero respect for the feelings of victims of Islamic terrorist attacks! The "understanding" certainly cannot be about easing "tensions" — clearly this is designed to increase tensions (and, who, pray tell, wishes to increase tensions if not radical fundamentalists?) (I'm also going to look up Dershowitz's Chutzpah text…to review some of his arguments.)

  • Robert Harkins


    Mr. Dershowitz, when he might have addressed the issue on the merits built two straw dog and proceeded to rend them to bits. That a Jew might say, out of the recollection of his pain and as a lyrical expression of the horrors of a holocaust, that Jews are entitled to their irrationalism, Mr. Dershowitz took him literally and used up most of his space preaching to the choir that bigotry is wrong. His argument regarding bigotry is as correct as it is irrelevant. What then precisely is his point? That we Americans must bow our heads and debase ourselves and our nation by permitting the building of a mosque in the rubble of the Twin Towers– this to show how liberal and "multicultural" we are. (By the way, Jews did not survive the ages by being multicultural; they survived by being Jews!. How well would multiculturalism have worked for Jews had they embraced its ideology in say, Germany around 1935)?

    Are we, like Mr. Dershowitz, so without the capacity of literary illusion, that like him we cannot see in the building of this mosque a symbol of Jihadist martial, moral and intellectual conquest? While, of course, Mr. Dershowitz took pains to see that the word bigot found its way into his analysis– and surely somewhere in the U.S., somewhere hiding in his hole and reading NAZI literature, is a bigot or two. But his reference to the bigot simply demonstrates that he is wrestling straw dogs. This is not about bigotry.

    The immediate victims of the 911 killing spree are not bigots. Neither are Americans. Mr. D's accusation that this is otherwise, that bigotry figures as a real issue in this debate, that is, indeed, a shameful species of argument.

    The Cordoba Mosque is named for the Cordoba Mosque in Spain built on the ruins of a Catholic church precisely to be an eternal a symbol of Islamic Triumphalism. So long as the Spanish might look upon it they would recall the pain, misery and dishonor of their defeat. Should we permit precisely this infamy in New York? If we do, we will convince no one that the sentiments that pass for virtue in Mr. D's cosmogony, will prove our strength and multicultural enlightenment. We will instead prove the cowardice and defeat, weakness and at last dissimitude into which Mr. D has poured his faith.


  • Yuri

    Dershowitz is wrong, wrong, wrong!

  • BS1977

    Dershowitz lives in the microcosmic world of petty intellectualism, abstract discussion, pedantry and debate…meanwhile ten medical workers were slaughtered by the Taliban in Afghanistan. This is the REAL world , Alan…not the Joy Behar show, not lectures at Harvard, not symposiums in the peaceful campus settings ….no the REAL world is the horror of life in Sudan, Somalia and Pakistan….Iraq….near daily terror bombings that have killed thousands over the past year…….People like Dershowitz live to watch talking heads on MSNBC or CNN….they read books and articles…but fail to see the obvious. They cannot grasp what they are embracing….a huge mega mosque just steps from Ground Zero. Are you serious, Alan…you cannot see what this represents? Are you a living man or just another topic on the View or a column in the Sunday NY Times? Michael Savage was so correct: Liberalism is a mental disorder.

  • BS1977

    OH, PS , sign the petition to halt this project……….nearly 25,000 AMericans have signed the petition. Thanks

  • patriot077

    Ground zero would be the 2nd victory mosque. The first is the Crescent of Betrayal site of Flight 93 in Shankstown, PA. Misguided fools do not recognize the symbolism and layout of this memorial either.

  • A Bit Profound

    It's Crazy & Unbelievable to me that it isn't obvious to all, that the Muslims see us as weak & stupid (because of our degeneracy) (and their Quite right of course) & that the true purpose of this mosk is a claim on America & a monument to their victory in knocking down the twin towers. Muslims must be laughing with glee all over the world. What an encouragement for universal jahad. It sure won"t be long before we nave those CRAZY Islamic Demonstrations here like they have in Europe.

  • Mark

    Why did the Muslims hide the fact that they only own part of the building 1/2 to be exact, con ed owns the other half.

  • Irwin Ruff

    If I might quote from Jonathan Rosenblum's article in the Jerusalem Post of 6 August:
    "From its inception, Islam was a religion of conquest. MUSLIM CONQUERORS INEVITABLY DESTROYED THE PRE-EXISTING HOUSES OF WORSHIP IN CONQUERED TERRITORY AND BUILT MOSQUES IN THEIR PLACE. (Today the same impulse is expressed in efforts to build mega-mosques in major urban centers far away from Muslim population centers.) … There is no Islamic . . . recognition of the legitimacy of any legal system other than Sharia. Islam, in short, lacks vital tools for participation in a tolerant multi-cultural society. . . . Wouldn’t allowing them to build such a center next to Ground Zero constitute a gratuitous, posthumous victory for the hijackers and a desecration of the memories of their more than 3,000 victims?

  • Grumpy

    Once again Dershowitz displays his dogmatic supidity with regards to the very people who will happily kill him. Despite what he sees across the world he still comes to the conclusion that we must tolerate our enemies in our very midst. I wish he would just take a vaction to the UAE, Morocco, etc. and just get it over with – let him destroy himself without harming others any further.

  • Tina Trent

    "They lynched Leo Frank in the name of an alleged victim of rape and murder." Wow Dershowitz — selectively minimize horrific suffering much? There was nothing "alleged" about the murder or rape of Mary Phagan. She was a child, brutally, unambiguously violated and slaughtered, most likely by a serial woman-abuser (possibly serial killer) who testified against Frank.

    Facts matter.

    So do human lives. Equally, right? Isn't that the point? Phagan and Leo Frank, who was surely innocent of her murder and was railroaded, died in precisely the same way. Terrorized, strangled and killed. The quotient of Frank's suffering is not reduced by denying Phagan's. Dershowitz commits the precise act he denounces.

    The creepiest part is how casually he tosses off this lie, rewriting the fact of an innocent child's rape and murder in the name of celebrating tolerance. How ignorant — and yet how typical of so much of the politics of "tolerance" as they are practiced.

  • John Little

    Build the ground zero mosque, but only after the greater body of Islam denounces and expels terrorists from their religion.

  • frank

    Dershowitz is wrong. This mosque is a Muslim provocation and true defenders of anti-racism, religious freedom and peaceful co-existence must make clear that disrepecting and insulting the victims is not acceptable.

    Mutual respect is the beginning of true tolerance and of true religious freedom. Since this mosque is supposed to be dedicated to mutual understanding, these Muslim must understand that building a mosque in this location is very offensive. They can prove their sincerity by dedicating their mosque to all victims of Muslim terror or by relocating this mosque in another location.

    Leftists don't see this mosque as an insult because they don't give a damn of 9/11 victims.

  • Frank Meyer

    Allen Dershowitz was most famous for representing O.J. Simpson killing of his wife and Ronald Goldman. Allen knew all along that Simpson was guilty, but the courtroom has become a circus, and Allen and his team "had" to win. The jury was made up of very stupid people, mostly black, who had decieded that O.J. was not going to be handed over to the "Man." It is the guilt that many of us recognized that blacks refuse to accept.

    We have the same problem here now, again, but the worst part it is we have Jews telling us that Islam is not dangerous. Now at the head of this pack if idiots, we have an individual who is either so stupid about Islam and its many flaw and its mission of world conquest, one cannot even allow Allen's thinking to get into the arena. Allen has no credibility whatsoever. He is not on the ground in the Gaza. He is safe at a University. He never put on a uniform to see the Muslims in Iraq and Afganistan kill other Muslims just to get control and impose Sharia Law. It Russia and China slaughtering again to get control. He is an armchair specator who is full of it.

  • WildJew

    "Any mention of the Religion of Peace should only remind us that Islam views even peace as a Zero-Sum Game…."

    Agreed. Did you feel this way when former President Bush coined this term?

  • scum

    "We must crush Islam in order to survive?" Sounds like you got a case of the heebie jeebie's, bro. Take a pill

  • Frank Meyer

    For those of us who have been associated with Islam and its so call peaceful members, Allen's comments are a joke. We have to fight Islam and keep it out of America All you have to do is just look at Europe and see the destruction the Muslims are already doing.

    We have hundreds of of Muslims ready to inflcit horror on the US who are actually here now, and to suugest they are anything but future trouble, you are an fool. I for one will not otlerate Muslims here and I will do ever thing I can to stop them from comming and throw out the Muslims here anyway possible.

  • Mustafa

    If you indeed believe what you say,…particularly the part about throwing out all Muslims, then you're a fascist. You are exactly what you accuse others of.

  • rach

    Mustafa, I think Frank Meyer meant to say throw out the evil in Islam not the people of the Middle East who sincerely support Freedom, the West. He is just fed up and understandably can't rely on the middle Eastern voices, particularly Arabs and Pakistanis, to unequivocally state and recognize that the Islamists teaching massively taught in the Muslim World is marred with hate, violence, and fanaticism and moreover, intolerance and the lack of law, that barbarian Sharia law, recall/? And the Islamists will stop at nothing in perusing their goals as you are well aware.

    So, Mustafa and the like, are we going to hear your thunderous voice condemning the Islamist suicide bombers, honor- killings, inequality to women or for that matter allowing to build a church, a mosque, a Hindu temple, etc. near the Ka'aba per the Sharia law? Are we ever going to see a reform, a serious overhaul, in Islam?

    Will the naive and ignoramus in the West wake up?

  • rach

    Mustafa et al,

    please, read t his:

    Saturday, August 07, 2010
    "I am Muslim. Don't kill me"

    Islam surly have a problem and if the freedom loving Muslims will continue to be in a slumber along with the naive or ignoramus in the West and they have no right to criticize those who dream of uprooting Islam from this planet unless its seriously reforms. Islam vast teaching is pure destruction, self and otherwise. Let's us not be blind about this horrific ideology etched in the Sharia law drawn from and embedded in the Koran, Hadith etc. Islamists teaching.