Living in Fear


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“But the rockets can reach Ashdod now too,” Iris remarks fretfully. During Operation Cast Lead, Grad missiles, which are smuggled into Gaza from Iran, struck Ashdod playgrounds, kindergartens and homes, killing one Israeli woman at a bus stop and seriously injuring many more.

“Ashdod is not sheltered like Sderot” Rami explains. “Even our home doesn’t have a bomb-shelter yet.”

Rami, now 21 and married with two young daughters — a toddler and a baby — expressed how the last week and a half had been hard on the family. “When we heard that the flotilla from Turkey was heading to the Gaza port, we were very scared because we had no idea what kind of weapons could be on the ships.”

As Iris’s youngest son, Osher, shyly cuddles up to his mother, Iris Twito reemphasizes the need for the Gaza naval blockade in order to protect innocent Israeli civilians like her family from future missile warfare.

“The government of Israel needs to ensure security for all Israelis and make sure that other Israelis are protected from the kind of tragedy that struck our family,” said Iris. ”Even Barack Obama at one time agreed with us. Osher met Obama two years ago,” explained Iris, as Obama, following the flotilla events, said the territory’s situation is “unsustainable.” According to Iris, the U.S. President, after hearing the young boy’s harrowing story, privately told him “I would do everything to defend my daughters from rocket attacks, if they were in your position.”

The Gaza flotilla was clearly only a provocation, carrying merely 10 thousand tons of aid, when Israel gave over 738,000 tons of aid in 2009 alone. This violent political stunt was only aimed at weakening Israel’s security and strengthening the Hamas military to put more families like the Twitos under threat.

Three years ago, Iris’s maternal instincts made her remove her kids from the daily horror of the Sderot rocket reality to what was a safer city. Today, under a larger missile threat, Iris’s maternal instincts are standing up against immense international pressure to lift the Gaza naval blockade implemented to protect Israeli children from going through what her two boys were forced to endure.

Jacob Shrybman is the Assistant Director and Anav Silverman is the International Correspondent of the Sderot Media Center, www.SderotMedia.org.il. Their work has been published in The Huffington Post, The Jerusalem Post, and USA Today. They have appeared on international television and radio stations such as BBC, Al Jazeera, CBS, and more.

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  • ciccio

    To re-occupy Gaza is insanity, why on earth would anyone want to walk into a hornets nest. There is only one way to stop the rocket and that is to get to population in Gaza to stop firing them and that is very easy to do. The state of radar, computers and surveilance equipment today is so advanced that within seconds of a rocket being fired the exact location from where it was fired can be pinpointed to within the nearest foot. Israel to has rocxkets, the difference is that they are state of the art and when they point it at a spot it will hit that spot. Tit for tat, invite the world press to see that every rocket that gets fired into Israel gets lobbed right back. When Gaza has 6,000 rockets fired at it they will tear Hamas to pieces.

    • ze-ev ben jehudah

      Those rockets are fired from civilian areas and as soon the rocket is
      fired they move to an other location.After firing a rocket it takes only
      a minute to leave the place.Retailiating will only hurt the civilians who
      live there .Re-occupation is,for that matter a better option.

      • JasonPappas

        Hamas is to blame for the civilian deaths in Gaza when it fires from civilian areas. If there were general agreement in Israel and America that it is Hamas that puts civilians in danger when it hides behind them, there would be the will to retaliate as Ciccio suggests.

        America's drone attacks in Pakistan kills fighters and at times civilians. At present there is support for these attacks but critics in the media are working to reverse this support.

        We have to win the intellectual battle before we can win militarily. We might choose another option, as you suggest, but full retaliation shouldn't be ruled out on ethical grounds. If they don't rule it out; we shouldn't.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/aspacia aspacia

        Those civilians cheered on 9/11 and voted Hamas in. You should peruse what they claim about the kaffir.

      • Hooah

        "Retailiating will only hurt the civilians who live there". I guess they should not have voted in those baby murdering terrorists (Hamas) when they had there first democratically held elections…EVER!

        Now let them reap what they have sown.

      • Ed Dubis

        Are the people firing these rockets not civilians? I think the distinction should be combatant/non-combatant. Wars are tough on non-combatants, but when you vote overwhelmingly to be ruled by a terrorist organization,even when your choice is between two terrorist organizations, I think you have chosen to be on the terrorist's side and you, get no pity from me if you and your children become "collateral damage"

  • NStahl

    The Israelis may have to cosider the fine international law action of reprisal. In short, under reprisal you may do to your attacker what they have done to you. The next time a rocket hits, the Israelis should use conventional artillery to pound the gazans into a pasty smear. Also, cut off food and water until the rocket fire ceases and all kidnapped personnel are returned.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Kaffir_Kanuck Kaffir_Kanuck

    What do you mean “if rocket fire from Gaza resumes,” it never stopped:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1044

    Ignore the left wing slant of reporting the Israeli air strike in the title and burying the rocket attack in the story.

  • Chisco

    ”'Even Barack Obama at one time agreed with us. Osher met Obama two years ago,' explained Iris, as Obama, following the flotilla events, said the territory’s situation is 'unsustainable.' According to Iris, the U.S. President, after hearing the young boy’s harrowing story, privately told him 'I would do everything to defend my daughters from rocket attacks, if they were in your position.'”

    Well, I trust that Iris no longer believes the lies from barack obama — The Americans have learned not to, and it's about time that Israeli citizens realized that obama bears them NO GOOD WILL whatsoever!!

    • elray dooley

      the folks here know thu story,its to destroy isarel,im looking and waiting for israel to kick ass big time, and sendem to meet alli.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/aspacia aspacia

    Pay compensation, and expel Arabs from Gaza, The West Bank and Israel. Aid them in their flight to another land as selling to Jews is a capital crime. Those left behind should be annihilated.

    Israel absorbed her 650,000 refugees from Arab lands, and since the Arabs won't do the same for their brethren, send them elsewhere. How about Venezuela to give Chavez a pain.

    This is the only solution as Hamas, Hizbollah, and Fatah's charters call for the annihilation of Israel. There can never be peace with those bent on your destruction.

    • Peachey

      Both Hamas and Hizbollah already have a relationship with Chavez and have an extensive network with training camps in South America. They are currently developing (according to the Dept of Homeland Security, FBI, and Border Patrol) a business relationship with the drug cartels in Mexico. A very bad thing for Americans.

  • baldarab

    This is a terrible way to live, and no one should be subjected to it. And in the same way, no one should be subjected to a full out assault that kills over 300 children, leaves over 98% suffering post-traumatic stress disorder, forces over 80% to be dependent on food aid (which still lives most malnourished), and orphans, maims and disables thousands more. This is what Israel subjected the civilian population of Gaza to. We should all be against rockets that kill or threaten civilians of any nationality, be it the death of these handfull in Sderot and Ashdod, or the thousands in Gaza.

    There is only one way out, and it is not blowing each other up. It is stopping all of that and coming to an equitable solution for all the people involved.

    • Max daddy

      Unfortunately the equitable solution seems to be the elimination of Israel. The people in Gaza didn't want their own nation when it was offered, remember.

      • baldarab

        that's not what I am suggesting, and for everyone talking about the elimination of israel, there are others talking about the elimination of the palestinians. we need to see beyond the endless tit for tat, or this cycle will go on forever.

    • Hooah

      YAWN!!! Ummm baldarab, your boring and pointless advice solves nothing and presents no logical solution…big surprise. Unless of course your equitable solution is killing all the Jews. Then we could call you skin-head-arab instead of bald-arab.

      I guess the Gazan's should not have voted in those baby murdering terrorists (Hamas) when they had there first democratically held elections…EVER!

      Now let them reap what they have sown.

      • baldarab

        thank you for your thoughtful contribution. "killing all the jews" appears to be your suggestion – it was never mine, and is not what I would espouse or call equitable. but neither would I call ethnic cleansing of the indigenous muslim and christian palestinian population equitable. and thank you also for the random insult – it has contributed greatly to the debate.

        we can all talk about who voted what in. the "democratically elected" israeli government has killed factors more children and babies than hamas has, and you need only look at the start of last year to see that. so one could equally argue that israelis continually voting in governments that have slaughtered palestinians were asking for missiles to rain down on ashdod or sderot. again, not my argument, but if that is the logic you want to pursue, that is where we go.

        so look – we can all continue to argue for an eye for an eye. israeli kills palestinian kills israeli ad nauseam. but the only guarantee in pursuing an eye for an eye is that everyone ends up blind. that is hardly a logical solution…

        • MixMike

          "but neither would I call ethnic cleansing of the indigenous muslim and christian palestinian population equitable."

          There is absolutely no ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, in fact the exact opposite is true. From 1994-2004 the Palestinian population increased by nearly 80%. Israel has provided the Palestinians with a higher standard of living through humanitarian aid, food aid and economic opportunities.

          "we can all talk about who voted what in. the "democratically elected" israeli government has killed factors more children and babies than hamas has, and you need only look at the start of last year to see that. "

          See that's just it, you try to paint an incorrect picture of Israel as a baby-killer nation when the exact opposite is true. Israel goes out of its way to protect civilians, and save Palestinian (and Israeli) children.

          In fact, it is the Palestinian terrorists who hate children and intentionally try to kill Israeli and their Palestinian children. In the 1974 Ma’alot disaster, Arab terrorists killed 21 schoolchildren. Palestinians terrorists have deliberately targeted Israeli schools and school buses for terrorist plots. Hamas has made it a point to lob missiles at Israeli day cares, kindergartens and schools. On official PA children's program, Palestinian children are taught to hate and kill Jews (not Israelis) and Christians and other infidels. Hamas uses children as human shields and sends children into warzones as easy propaganda fodder. Israeli mothers dream of sending their children to college to become scientists and civic leaders, whereas Palestinian mothers dream of sending their children off to suicidal death to become "martyrs."

          When will the Palestinians learn to love children and stop incessantly abusing them?

          • baldarab

            who is swallowing propaganda here? Since ‘48, Palestinians have lived on less and less land. This is even borne out by Israel's own official records and academic research.

            Who was painting pictures? i pointed out an inescapable fact that the israeli defence force has been responsible for more child deaths than hamas. fact. but i believe that the vast majority of humanity, including israelis and palestinians, would rather see their children live happy, free and long lives. that's human nature, and however anyone wants to paint it, palestinians and israelis are human. i am palestinian, i have children, and i love them more than anything on this planet. if you have children, i’ll bet you feel the same. i didn't choose to go into that debate until someone started the whole "my enemy eats babies for lunch" bullshit.

            you go to history, but even here it's endless. the irgun and hagana brigades that provided most of israel's leadership killed civilians and children in cast numbers since ‘48.

            we can trade facts and propaganda. is anyone brave enough to say enough is enough, and let's talk about a peaceful future where we aspire for equality for all?

          • MixMike

            "who is swallowing propaganda here? Since ‘48, Palestinians have lived on less and less land. This is even borne out by Israel's own official records and academic research."

            Not true. Palestinians didn't have a land in 1948. There was only Israel, Jordan, Syria and Egypt. The term "Palestinians" wasn't even coined for the Arabs in the region until 1964 with the PLO charter. In 1967 Israel legally acquired Gaza and the W. Bank in 1967 in a defensive war from Jordan and Egypt not from any Palestinian government.

            Israel offered the Palestinians 98% of the W. Bank and Gaza in 2000 and Arafat rejected this without even making any counter-offers or further negotiations. Israeli "hawk" Ariel Sharon completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005 only to be met with a rain of rockets into its southern towns. Israel allows the W. Bank to be run mostly autonomously by Fatah.

            The Palestinians had and currently have opportunities to expand their land and create a nation, but constant terrorism against innocent Israelis will threaten to squander those opportunities.

            "but i believe that the vast majority of humanity, including israelis and palestinians, would rather see their children live happy, free and long lives."

            You and I agree, I just wish groups like Hamas saw things the way we did.

            "the irgun and hagana brigades that provided most of israel's leadership killed civilians and children in cast numbers since ‘48."

            The Igrun and Hagana were actually outlawed and disbanded by Israel in 1948. Israel renounced terrorism, whereas the Arab countries (Jordan, Syria and Egypt) continued to provide state supported terrorism against Israel through the 60s and 70s when the PLO took over (although some still accuse Syria of material support to terrorists).

            "is anyone brave enough to say enough is enough, and let's talk about a peaceful future where we aspire for equality for all? "

            Sure, but I refuse to stand by and let lies about Israel stand, I will not apologize for crimes Israel never committed.

          • baldarab

            from '48 to '51, over 700,000 arabs who lived in my palestine and your israel were evicted and became refugees. the’67 lands are illegally occupied according to international bodies and conventions (e.g. the Geneva conventions, and the International Court of Justice). the oslo accords, which i disagreed with, saw the plo, the only representative of the evicted arabs (who most of the world calls palestinian), accept 22% of the land previously inhabited by arabs. israeli "withdrawal" from gaza in legality and fact is still occupation, as israel retains control of entry, exit, airspace, ports and so on. i leave your house which i stole from you in the first place, but control your doors and windows, what can come in and leave, and call you free. areas in the west bank have even greater food issues than in gaza.

            irgun and hagana's leaders provided israel's leaders for about 50 years. ‘renouncing’ terrorism is great, but israeli collective punishment, assassination, kidnap, torture, child detention, are all forms of terrorism.

            i will not accept lies about palestine. hopefully our leaders are bigger us and talk about an equitable future rather than doing what we’re doing.

          • MixMike

            "from '48 to '51, over 700,000 arabs who lived in my palestine and your israel were evicted and became refugees."

            Actually, no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by "the UN Mediator on Palestine" estimated an even lower figure at 472,000.

            Even still, the The Arabs willingly left so they could make way for Arab armies to invade Israel and liquidate the Jews.

            What about the 800,000+ Jewish refugees from Arab lands?

            "the’67 lands are illegally occupied according to international bodies and conventions (e.g. the Geneva conventions, and the International Court of Justice)."

            Wrong again, International law is clear: land acquired in a defense if war is not considered "illegally" occupied. Even UN resolution 242 conforms to this understanding.

            "israeli "withdrawal" from gaza in legality and fact is still occupation, as israel retains control of entry, exit, airspace, ports and so on."

            Don't forget that Egypt controls the other border with Gaza as well. Of course you don't condemn them. Even still, Israel, just as any other country controls its borders with Gaza. Of course there are check points to ensure that suicide bombers don't gain entry, but Israel maintained an open corridor for Palestinians to travel in and out of Gaza. Recently Israel has even eased some of the restrictions to make life easier for Gazans. Perhaps if Palestinians didn't start lobbing missiles at Israel after it withdrew in 2005 we wouldn't have this problem?

          • baldarab

            Great piece of fiction "arabs willingly left". Ever heard of the Deir Yassin Massacre? Wasn't exactly a willing departure when pre-Israeli terrorists massacre and expel the native population. Read your own Ilan Pappe (as with every Jew who disagrees with your version of history, you will demeaningly call him 'self-hating'), whose research was based on papers released by the Israeli govt.

            Res 242 includes "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war " and one of the basic principles is "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" That seems pretty clear to me.

            And yes, I condemn Egypt. I condemn anyone who is putting another human to harm. One difference is that Egypt hasn't bombed the living daylights out of an entire 1.5Million territory and killed over 300 children in the process.

            And I condemn suicide bombers. Even if they cause a miniscule % of the deaths that Israeli warplanes do. Just because the IDF sit in tanks and planes doesn't exonerate them.

            Let's keep at the tit for tat. It will get nowhere.

          • MixMike

            Deir Yassin is a fictional massacre. Menachem Begin himself stated that a truck with a loudspeaker was driven around the village before the attack and warned civilians to evacuate, which most did.

            Contrary to Mr. Pappe, who is a revisionist historian, the town was not filled with peaceful innocent civilians, residents and foreign troops opened fire on the Jewish forces.

            The New York times and Red Cross reported on the incident and found no massacre occurred. The Jewish forces allowed an open corridor in the village for residents to escape; more than 200 residents fled unharmed.

            Interestingly enough the term "massacre" has been concocted by Arab propagandists: "Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi 'there was no rape,' but Khalidi replied, 'We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews.' Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, 'This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror.'"

          • baldarab

            Memoires of J. de Renier, head of Int’l Red Cross in Palestine in ‘48

            "more than 200 dead, men, women, and children…placed in a large trough…[One body was] a woman…eight months pregnant, hit in the stomach, with powder burns on her dress indicating she'd been shot point-blank."…
            [the Irgun detachment] was wearing country uniforms with helmets. All… young, some adolescents…armed to the teeth:…cutlasses in hands, most blood-stained. A beautiful young girl showed me hers dripping with blood; she displayed it like a trophy…
            I tried to go into a house. A dozen solders surrounded me, machine-guns aimed at my body…I flew into one of the most towering rages of my life…pushed them aside and went into the house
            …I found some bodies, cold. the "cleaning up" had been done with machine-guns, then hand grenades. It had been finished off with knives… as I was about to leave, I heard something like a sigh. I looked everywhere, turned over all the bodies, eventually found a little foot, still warm. It was a little girl of ten, mutilated by a hand grenade, but still alive."

            chilling parallels with israeli invasion of gaza. old habits die hard.

          • MixMike

            A study by Bir Zeit University, based on discussions with families from the village, found only 107 civilian casualties. Other Arab sources have subsequently suggested the number may have been even lower.

            Even still, the fact remains, the Irgun was disbanded when Israel became a state and Israel does not engage in the intentional killing of civilians, whereas Palestinian terrorists do.

            "chilling parallels with israeli invasion of gaza. old habits die hard."

            Not at all, again the majority of those killed were Hamas and terrorist combatants. Israel has never had a "habit" of intentionally killing civilians. Perhaps its time for Palestinians to renounce the intentional killing of civilians and terrorism against Jews. Those are some old habits that should definitely die.

          • baldarab

            we are clearly not going to agree on this one. i see enough killing of civilians and children by the idf, imprisonment also of children and under no charge, brutality on a daily basis against civilians, illegal expropriation of palestinian land, settler violence, strangulation of the possibility of any viable palestinian economy, denial of any responsibility for ongoing ethnic cleansing of palestinian muslim and christian arabs, and innumerable more acts to make it impossible for me (or anyone objective) to believe that israel doesn't intentionally kill civilians, or mean them harm.

            so again – i will ask is there a better way which will allow israelis and palestinian arabs to both enjoy the lives that any human should deserve rather than this endless cycle, or are we going to continue the treadmill of your and my arguing, and palestinians and israelis killing each other?

          • MixMike

            I see thousands of rockets raining in on Sderot, daily Palestinian media that praises the killing of Jews, Palestinian textbooks that teach children to hate Jews, wounded victims of suicide bombings, people mourning deaths of victims of Palestinian terrorism, children with PTSD from constant Hamas rocket fire, ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries, Palestinian denial of Israel's right to exist, Palestinian denial of terrorism, all of which make it impossible for me or any objective person to believe that Palestinians want peace and don't strive to "push the Jews into the sea" or "drink the blood of the Jews."

            "so again – i will ask is there a better way which will allow israelis and palestinian arabs to both enjoy the lives that any human should deserve rather than this endless cycle, or are we going to continue the treadmill of your and my arguing, and palestinians and israelis killing each other?"

            Yes, Palestinians can put down their weapons and give Israel PEACE. Once Palestinians give up the dream of destoying Israel they can achieve the dream of having their own country. Gaza and W. Bank can be independent states and prosper alongside of Israel.

          • baldarab

            great theoretical debate as neithe you nor i are elected reps of palestine or israel (i think). but in that world you live in, which is diametrically opposed to the one i am in where i see israelis killing and cleansing and trying to eliminate all vestige of palestinians in palestine / israel, would you also see that israel would put down its weapons and offer the palestinians rights to return to their land and live in equity with israelis both on paper and in reality? i don't think so. until both parties can offer something equitable, i fear we are doomed to these cycles of violence. and i will see a picture where israel murders and cleanses palestinian christian and muslims, and you will see the opposite.

          • MixMike

            "i see israelis killing and cleansing and trying to eliminate all vestige of palestinians in palestine / israel, would you also see that israel would put down its weapons and offer the palestinians rights to return to their land and live in equity with israelis both on paper and in reality? i don't think so"

            I have already proven that In the real world, where I live, Israel does not engage in anything that can even come close to ethnic cleansing. Lest we forget the Palestinian population increased by over 80% in just 10 years from 1994-2004.

            You and I both know the so-called "right of return" is code for Israel's destruction by demographics. The Arabs were given chances for repatriation (48 and 50) and they refused. They lost their chance. Besides the Palestinains want to repatriate not just the original refugees but countless descendants into perpetuity.

            You lost a war you instigated, get over it. When Palestinians stop committing terrorism and worshiping murderers there will be peace.

          • baldarab

            come to think of it, the israeli defence force also left a similar"open corridor" at sabra and chatilla for the militia to go in and massacre the residents of the refugee camp there. there really are a lot of parallels between the irgun and haganah atrocities in the 40s and thr idf today.

          • MixMike

            The IDF was not at all involved with Sabra and Shantilla, that was the work of the Christian Phalangists. As soon as Israel heard of the "massacre" they ordered the Phalangists out of the area. The Israeli public loudly condemned the massacre.

            "there really are a lot of parallels between the irgun and haganah atrocities in the 40s and thr idf today. "

            Not in the sense you are thinking. The Irgun and Haganah were defending Jews from Arab massacres. Don't forget, leading into 48 and even during the war, the number of Jewish civilians intentionally MURDERED greatly outnumbered any Arab civilians that were killed (all mostly unintentional, as they were caught in crosshair battles).

          • baldarab

            if i were to tie you up and invite someone to beat you when you were tied up, would i bear any responsibility for your beating? the killing was done by the phalangists as the idf had surrounded the camps, stopped entry and exit, provided flares so that the phalangists could see what they were doing, and send them in to do their dirty work. the independent MacBride commission found israel directly or indirectly responsible for the massacre. israel's own Kahan report found ariel sharon bore "personal responsibility".

            your assertion of the numbers of murdered jewish civilians differs dramatically from that of the british occupiers of palestine at the time. and your reports of arab deaths as being unintentional is also greatly at odds with the publich statements of the jewish leadership in palestine of the day.

          • MixMike

            The Israelis were working with the Phalangists to root out terrorists in the camps. That is why the provided flares and surveyed entry and exit points. As soon as the Israelis found out what was going on they forced the Phalangists to withdraw.

            It is a fact that overall more Jewish civilians were murdered than Arabs during the mandate period. But numbers aren't important. The fact is Israel wants peace and the Arabs want war. Simple as that.

          • baldarab

            and i guess it was another one where "unfortunately civilians got hurt". a lot of that happens when israel goes for "terrorists"

            and we will not agree on who wants peace and war. except to say that it is difficult to want peace when you are not offered your human rights and dignity. (even though peace activists at Bil In and other west bank towns are trying, while still getting mown down by the idf).

          • MixMike

            "and i guess it was another one where "unfortunately civilians got hurt". a lot of that happens when israel goes for "terrorists""

            Not at all because as stated above, the Israeli's weren't even involved. The world would rather blame them then fellow Arabs. Simple racism thats all.

            "except to say that it is difficult to want peace when you are not offered your human rights and dignity."

            Exactly! The Israelis have been ill treated by the Arabs and denied human rights and dignity since long before Israel's creation. When the Arabs stop with the racism and xenophobia there will be peace.

            "even though peace activists at Bil In and other west bank towns are trying, while still getting mown down by the idf."

            Quit with the lies, Israel doesn't mow anyone down. Terrorists are targeted by the military. Besides, I wouldn't call guys that speak of "drinking the blood of Jews" peace activists.

          • MixMike

            "Res 242 includes "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war " and one of the basic principles is "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" That seems pretty clear to me."

            Wrong again, the term: "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war," clearly only applies to an offensive war. Otherwise, the resolution provides an incentive for aggression: "If one country attacks another, and the defender repels the attack and acquires territory in the process, the former interpretation would require the defender to return all the land it took." Thus, aggressive nations (like the Arab nations) have nothing to lose because they would be insured against the consequence of defeat (losing territory).

            Instead, the "ultimate goal" of Resolution 242 is the achievement of a "peaceful and accepted settlement."

          • MixMike

            "And yes, I condemn Egypt. I condemn anyone who is putting another human to harm. One difference is that Egypt hasn't bombed the living daylights out of an entire 1.5Million territory and killed over 300 children in the process."

            "And I condemn suicide bombers. Even if they cause a miniscule % of the deaths that Israeli warplanes do. Just because the IDF sit in tanks and planes doesn't exonerate them."

            Hamas has fired tens of thousands of rockets at Israel intentionally trying to kill civilians. Nearly 10,000 rockets have landed in Israel since January 2009. Israel only targets Hamas terrorists who are trying to kill Israeli civilians and children. Of course it is always tragic when innocent Palestinians are killed in the crossfire but those deaths can be pinned squarely on Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups.

          • baldarab

            i would hardly call carpet bombing gaza, including the use of phosphorous, as crossfire. the goldstone report (jewish, ardently zionist, and commissioned by the united nations) is at great odds with your assertion. in fact, he finds several cases where civilians were intentionally targetted by the israeli offensive forces.

          • MixMike

            "i would hardly call carpet bombing gaza, including the use of phosphorous, as crossfire."

            Thats just it, you are making up lies, Israel didn't engage in carpet bombing. They targeted specific terrorist enclaves. As for the phosphorous, the international red cross confirmed that Israel use was LEGAL under international law. Get it through your head, Israel does not intentionally target civilians, that is the job of Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist organizations.

          • baldarab

            tough to get your version of events through my head when it contradicts reality and evidence. but maybe that's just me. (and most of the international community)

          • MixMike

            Well since your reality and evidence is devoid of basic facts and established international legal principles I can understand.

          • baldarab

            yup. devoid of any facts or principles that israel is prepared to accept, but which the vast majority of the rest of the world has no issues with. i wish you luck in your parallel universe.

          • MixMike

            "irgun and hagana's leaders provided israel's leaders for about 50 years. ‘renouncing’ terrorism is great, but israeli collective punishment, assassination, kidnap, torture, child detention, are all forms of terrorism."

            Ahem, Israel DISBANDED and OUTLAWED the Igrun and Haganah, try another lie.

            "i will not accept lies about palestine."

            The very idea of Palestinianism is based on a lie started in 1964 by Arafat and Arab governments to destroy the Jewish state. Perhaps Palestinians need to be a little less xenophobic and murderous towards their neighbors.

          • baldarab

            Disbanded and outlawed so successfully that most of their members were absorbed into the IDF (successfully formalising the terrorist organisations, and allowing them to operate with the same moral standpoint of murdering Palestinians but with better weapons). Nonetheless, my comment wasn't about disbanding. I said that they provided the future leadership of Israel. Begin? Irgun. Dayan? Haganah. Rabin? Haganah. Shamir? Irgun (then more extremist Lehi). Sharon? Haganah. These are not Israeli leaders who grew from those terrorist ranks? Ahem.

            It sits uncomfortably with you to accuse others of Xenophobia. Killing of Palestinians by the IDF and Israeli settlers makes killing of Israelis by Palestinians look palrty. BUT THE POINT IS ALL OF THESE DEATHS ARE POINTLESS. and you will not condemn the killing that Israel has done.

          • MixMike

            "Begin? Irgun. Dayan? Haganah. Rabin? Haganah. Shamir? Irgun (then more extremist Lehi). Sharon? Haganah. These are not Israeli leaders who grew from those terrorist ranks? Ahem."

            The Irgun, is in sharp contrast with Palestinian terrorist organizations, murder of innocent civilians was not its main goal/purpose and militant attacks were not its "principal tactic." The main objective of the Irgun, was to defend the Jewish civilians against anti-Semitic violence and mass murder committed by the Arabs.

            The goals of Hamas are not to protect Palestinians from Israel, but instead to actively provoke violence and destroy the Jewish state.

            "Killing of Palestinians by the IDF and Israeli settlers makes killing of Israelis by Palestinians look palrty."

            Wrong again, the IDF targets terrorists, the Palestinians target civilians. You are just upset because Israel is more successful in killing terrorists, than the Palestinians are successful with killing innocent civilians.

            I do agree that some of the settlers act out of hate for the Arabs. Israel and Jews everywhere overwhelmingly condemn those actions (as do I). Whereas, when Palestinian terrorists act of hatred for Jews (Hamas calls for another Holocaust in its charter), the Palestinian population praises and cheers them along. Just look at http://www.memri.org for how the Palestinians glorify Palestinian murderers.

          • baldarab

            i don't know why we carry on with this to and fro.

            haganah and irgun and the other jewish terrorist groups were explicitly trying to create terror to cause the ethnic cleansing of palestine. israeli official records of the time, as well as direct testimony of the leaders, admit this – it is not a fiction dreamt up by arabs or anyone else.

            'target' is a bizarre word for the carpet bombing that the idf put gaza under. your mossad is far more effective at targetting and has proven so over and over. putting over 1000 people to death, including 300 children hardly smack of targetting. if the idf targets terrorists, it should use something other than carpet bombing.

            interesting that you use "success" at killing civilians. the idf has killed multiples more palestinian civilans than any palestinian group. cast lead on its own saw to a lot of that.

            and the picnics that the israelis were happening (shown on the bbc) while watching and cheering the bombing of gaza?

          • antirevolution

            you're way off baldarab. look at what MixMike wrote, the haganah and irgrun were defending jews from mass-murder by the arabs. the "massacres" by the haganah and irgrun were made up as propaganda tools by the arab states.

            the official position of the jewish leaders was to urge the Arabs to remain in Palestine and become citizens of Israel. israel's proclamation of independence, issued May 14, 1948, begged the arabs to become equal citizens in the new state: "we call upon the arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions."

          • baldarab

            defending? the irgun and haganah's own leadership have been more honest about this than you are prepared to be. the actions of all the terrorist groups, haganah, irgun, palmach, stern gang and others was to ethnically cleanse palestine of its native arab population. menachem begin admits this. david ben gurion admits this. so unless you are actually a 90-year old veteran leader of the jewish movement in the 40s, then i think you may have to defer to their viewpoints.

          • antirevolution

            Actually, I am familiar with the quotes you are referring to and they are FALSELY attributed to Ben Gurion and Begin. They are popular on neo-Nazi, Marxist and Arab propaganda websites. Nice try though. You can see http://www.camera.org for more information on this nonsense.

          • baldarab

            Falsely? I've actually read the books.They must have had one heck of a set of ghost writers.

            And I'm pleased you reference CAMERA. It is as factually correct as http://www.theonion.com, but only slightly less amusing.

            I do find your Nakba denial incredibly offensive. We have palestinians alive who've lived through it to tell the tale much as jewish survivors of the holocaust. come to think of it, i could probably find you 'neutral' sites that deny that, but i would find that as offensive as the rubbish you are coming up with on israel's clear culpability in its ethnic cleansing of arabs in 1948.

          • MixMike

            "I've actually read the books.They must have had one heck of a set of ghost writers."

            What books? Were they written by Norman Finkelstein, Ilan Pappe, Alex Cockburn and other anti-Israel advocates? Go and check CAMERA. The quotes are fabricated and/or taken out of context intentionally. It is a clever ploy by the anti-Israeli advocates.

            "I do find your Nakba denial incredibly offensive."

            I find the very idea of the Nakba, that Israel's creation was a catastrophe, to be incredible offensive.

            "israel's clear culpability in its ethnic cleansing of arabs in 1948."

            I am sorry of the truth hurts, but Israel and Jews do not engage in ethnic cleansing. The Palestinians on the other hand are very clear about pushing the Jews into the sea. From your early leaders like the Nazi Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini to Yassir Arafat to Ismail Haniyeh.

          • baldarab

            one day you will open your eyes to the history that you've created. i find it very sad that a people that has been through what jews did in the second world war go and commit crimes against humanity elsewhere, their leaders admit as much, and you live in denial. speak to my relatives who were forced out of their homes and tell them their experience was a "fabrication".

          • MixMike

            "one day you will open your eyes to the history that you've created."

            One day you will open your eyes to the history that the Palestinians created for themselves. Quit living in a Arab propaganda dreamland.

            "i find it very sad that a people that has been through what jews did in the second world war go and commit crimes against humanity elsewhere, their leaders admit as much, and you live in denial."

            I find it sad that the Palestinians, who helped perpetrate the Holocaust and want to create another one inside Israel refuse to give up their xenophobia. Your leaders admit as much, whereas the Israeli leaders (despite your clever lies) have constantly tried to live side by side the Arabs in peace (and their are plenty of quotes and evidence to support this very basic fact).

            "have speak to my relatives who were forced out of their homes and tell them their experience was a "fabrication"."

            Gladly, they willingly left so the Arab armies could mow down the Jews. Had your relatives chosen peace rather than xenophobia and racism for Jews they could still have their homes and live in prosperity with Israelis. Their old hateful ways die hard.

          • baldarab

            tough to choose peace when israeli terrorist gangs are mowing down civilians with guns grenades and cutlasses. and keep your insults to yourself about racism in my family or i – i have tried not to insult you, but to merely discuss your faulty claims. disturbing when your arguments always turn personal in the end.

          • MixMike

            "tough to choose peace when israeli terrorist gangs are mowing down civilians with guns grenades and cutlasses."

            Funny, because Israel always offers the olive branch of peace despite the fact that Palestinian terrorist gangs mow down Israeli kindergartens and schoolbuses.

            "and keep your insults to yourself about racism in my family or i – i have tried not to insult you, but to merely discuss your faulty claims."

            You asked me to address your family so I did.

          • MixMike

            "'target' is a bizarre word for the carpet bombing that the idf put gaza under."

            Israel never "carpet bombed" Gaza. They targetted terrorist hideouts. It is unfortunate that civilians get killed during the bombing campaigns. Perhaps if Hamas didn't intentionally hide out in cities and use children as human sheilds we wouldnt have this problem.

            "putting over 1000 people to death, including 300 children hardly smack of targetting."

            Again your playing fast and loose with the facts. 300 civilians were killed, there is no evidence how many of those were children, most estimates put it at roughly 80 or so. Even still they include anyone under 18 as children, and ignore child soldiers who intentionally instigated battle with Israelis.

          • baldarab

            targetted by bombing schools, hospitals, UN buildings and so on. and 300, as i said before, is quoted by a large number of non-governmental organisations including Save the Children, the United Nations, and so on who don't have a vested interest. that is where 'most' estimates are at.

          • MixMike

            "targetted by bombing schools, hospitals, UN buildings and so on."

            Your claim would be laughable if it weren't such a vicious lie. During Cast Lead it was a very clear that Hamas was firing at Israel from civilian positions such as schools and hospitals. One case was the school in Jabayla where the UN and the media "claimed" that Israel fired upon the school. However, this never happened and the IDF proved it and the UN (which has a strong anti-Israel bias) even agreed. Maxwell Gaylord (great last name huh?), the UN humanitarian coordinator in Jerusalem, admitted that "the IDF mortar shells fell in the street near the compound, and not on the compound itself." Gaylord said that the UN “would like to clarify that the shelling and all of the fatalities took place outside and not inside the school.”

            You are free to play a numbers game with casualties but the fact remains that Israel does not target civilians, whereas Hamas does.

          • baldarab

            you're right. we should probably ignore the numbers. it is irrelevant when a palestinian life means nothing to the iof and israeli populace. with that arithmetic, several thousand palestinian lives lost multiplied by a value to you of zero absolutely means that hamas has killed more civilians. can't fault the logic!

          • MixMike

            Actually, the IDF values Palestinian civilian lives more than their own soldiers. There are official IDF policies that do not allow military action where Palestinian civilians are at risk, even if it putes the IDF forces more are at risk (for death). Get your facts straight, although my guess is you will just keep the xenophobic propaganda flowing.

          • baldarab

            from haaretz yesterday:
            "In the Gaza Strip, Operation Cast Lead was experienced primarily as a war against civilians. In the neighborhood of Zeitun, it was manifest in the point-blank killing of civilians in front of their families; preventing the arrival of rescuers, including shooting and killing them; stopping civilians fleeing the neighborhood from taking the injured with them (at least five people died this way, including two children, not only from the Al-Samouni family ); shooting at people waving a white flag; using human shields (in a home that was turned into a temporary a command post ); destroying homes, greenhouses and agricultural areas; spraying graffiti on walls, with "Kill the Arabs" "

          • antirevolution

            "interesting that you use "success" at killing civilians. the idf has killed multiples more palestinian civilans than any palestinian group."

            Yes, Palestinians are upset that they are not more successful in killing innocent Jewish civilians (and their own to use as propaganda). Thats a fact. And the Palestinians have created their own casualties, they are squarely to blame for the loss of any innocent life. Interestingly enough, when countries like Jordan or Lebanon legitimately ethnically cleanse Palestinians (murdering more Palestinians than Israel has killed since its inception) no one says a word.

          • baldarab

            i am palestinian, and i am upset that innocents are killed (palestinian, israeli or nigerian – a human life is a human life in my calculus, but apparently not yours). and by the way, lots was said when arab countries did the same – your memory is short.

          • antirevolution

            "and the picnics that the israelis were happening (shown on the bbc) while watching and cheering the bombing of gaza?"

            This is a minority of the Israeli populace. The fact remains that the majority of Israelis condemn and mourn any loss of innocent Palestinian civilians, wheras the majority of the Palestinians cheer and condone the practice.

          • baldarab

            so i guess you are at least conceding my point that the irgun and haganah leadership became israel's. good.

            now, to principal tactics. not sure if you've read the memoires of the haganah and irgun leadership? or interviews with the leadership? such as Yitzhak Pundak who in interview with Haaretz said of the area he was responsible for ethnically cleansing of palestinians "there were 200 villages [...] and these are gone. we had to destroy them, otherwise we would have had arabs here as we have in galilee".

            the idf's own archives show some of the leaflets distributed to palestinian villages "if the war will be taken to your place, it will cause massive expulsion of the villagers, with their wives and their children. Those of you who do not wish to come to such a fate, I will tell them: in this was there will be merciless killing, no compassion."

            see also earlier account of the massacre of deir yassin from the head of the red cross at the time.

            and don't put words into my mouth. i am actually upset by the existance of terrorists of any kind – be that israeli, arab, irish or any. hence the start of my entry into this forum.

          • MixMike

            "so i guess you are at least conceding my point that the irgun and haganah leadership became israel's. good."

            Wrong, the Irgun and Haganah were disbanded and outlawed when Israel became a state. Israel did not adopt the ideologies from those groups into its own.

            As for Yitzach Pundak, the fact remains that the Israeli leadership wanted to create a state with the Arabs as their citizens. Deir Yassin is a myth. They BEGGED the Arabs to stay and become equal citizens in building the country.

            The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this "appeal" on October 2, 1947: " We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals."

            After the UN partition vote, the Jewish Agency announced: "The main theme behind the spontaneous celebrations we are witnessing today is our community's desire to seek peace and its determination to achieve fruitful cooperation with the Arabs."

            Israel's Proclamation of Independence invited the Arabs to stay in their homes and become equal citizens Israel: "In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions….We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all."

          • baldarab

            you claim wild exaggeration on internationally respected bodies, facts are biased if they don’t suit your story. when most world bodies get to the same conclusions based on the same facts, you've got to open your eyes rather than adopting an isolated approach that only israeli versions of events are true. even the idf accepts that there were large numbers of casualties in cast lead.

            "provocation" is a crazy argument. if gaza and palestinian arabs were not occupied from ‘48, we'd not be talking about this. The occupation is the original provocation, everything since is an eye for an eye. most palestinians condemn human shields and child soldiers – do most israelis condemn idf killing of palestinian children?

            food insecurity is defined as lack of access to sufficient safe food. the FAO says 61% in Gaza are food insecure. you can't build up infrastructure when israel refuses pipes to repair sewage plants, cement to rebuild schools it destroyed and so on. i've been trying to get a playground built there for over a year, but can't get supplies in to do it. nice photos – here's a video clip http://bit.ly/bzgwzH. we can both find these. read UN reports instead.

          • MixMike

            "even the idf accepts that there were large numbers of casualties in cast lead."

            Yes the IDF estimated that approximately 1,100 Palestinians were killed in Cast Lead, and the majority (over 700) of those killed were Hamas Operatives.

            "if gaza and palestinian arabs were not occupied from ‘48, we'd not be talking about this."

            Um, you need to review your history. Israel didn't occupy W. Bank or Gaza in 48. Gaza was occupied by Egypt and W. Bank by Jordan in 48.

            "The occupation is the original provocation, everything since is an eye for an eye."

            Wrong, Israel's very existence is the original provocation. Just admit it. Arabs terrorized Israelis before 48. Before the 67 "occupation" Arabs were still carrying out a constant stream of terror attacks in Israel.

            "most palestinians condemn human shields and child soldiers – do most israelis condemn idf killing of palestinian children?"

            Nonsense, Hamas swept into power by a large majority in Gaza, indicative that the Palestinians support Hamas positions, including Hamas position of using children as human shields and child soldiers. The Fatah media celebrates murdering Israeli children and sending PAlestinian children to their death to become "martyrs." Remember Farfour the mouse? What about the day camps and children sing-a-long tv shows that teach Palestinains hatred for Jews and honor in martyrdom? Just go to http://www.memri.org for the video evidence.

            The vast majority of Israel's strongly condemn and (accidental) killing of Palestinian children during IDF anti-terror operations. The IDF goes through extra pains to avoid killing any children. Israelis love Palestinian children more than Palestinians themselves.

            "food insecurity is defined as lack of access to sufficient safe food. the FAO says 61% in Gaza are food insecure."

            As mentioned before Israel send the equivalent of one ton per resident in aid in Gaza.
            http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/

            If food is insecure it is entirely the fault of the Hamas warlords in control once the aid arrives in Gaza.

            "you can't build up infrastructure when israel refuses pipes to repair sewage plants, cement to rebuild schools it destroyed and so on."

            Perhaps if Hamas didn't use cement to build weapons smuggling tunnels, Israel wouldn't have to ban it! That said, Israel has agreed to ease the blockade and allow some of these previously banned materials into Gaza.

          • baldarab

            How come you can fit such long responses when mine have to be whittled down to 1000 characters?

            … isaelis voted in a government that killed a vast amount of palestinian children. but I don't draw the same conclusions you do, and i do assume that most israelis dont want children to be killed. hamas was the party doing more in the community for schooling and charity, and that was why they were voted in. i believe you will find in any democracy that parties get voted in even if substantial parts of their policies are not the agreed norm. or would you say that israelis voted in their government because they agreed with the slaughter of children in gaza? maybe you do. i doubt it.

            and what israelis were terrorised before '48??? israel didn't exist at that stage.

          • MixMike

            "isaelis voted in a government that killed a vast amount of palestinian children."

            This is just a bald lie. Israelis never killed a vast amount of Palestinian children. There is absolutely no claim for this baseless accusation.

            "or would you say that israelis voted in their government because they agreed with the slaughter of children in gaza? maybe you do."

            No Israelis voted in their government because the facts are that Israel doesn't slaughter children in Gaza. The majority in Israel support the IDF and its actions to kill terrorists and respect the fact that the IDF goes out of its way to avoid killing civilians, particularly children. So yes, you can make the argument that the majority of Israel and its voters agree with its extremely humane and compassionate government and army.

            Hamas is a terrorist organization that states its goal to exterminate Jews worldwide in its charter. Hamas may have started with the goal of providing charity, but its main goal now is to support its military wing and kill innocent Israelis. The world and the Palestinian public is well aware of this. Thus, Gazan voters are complicit with murder and the vast majority of them (that voted in Hamas) morally support the killing of innocent Israelis.

            "and what israelis were terrorised before '48??? israel didn't exist at that stage."

            Sorry, the Jews in the region trying to build Israel were terrorized by Arabs before 48.

          • baldarab

            no claim? how about the 300+ children just killed in Gaza? i gave you a number of international objective references for this. stop practicing palestinian massacre denial – it is as offensive as holocaust denial.

            i also am not, and have not, anywhere said that i am a supporter of hamas or any other faction. i have only said consistently through this that the murders by all sides make this an infernal cycle, and that israel is as culpable as anyone else of these murders (and happens to be more proficient at murdering as well). i do not support the extermination of jews, muslims, christians or anyone else. hence my point at the start condemning all these killings.

            and the jews who were 'terrorised' were not shy of particularly effective 'terrorisation' themselves. an influx at volume of any number of foreigners into the country with an intent to expel the indigenous people rarely ends well. and the jewish terrorism of the time practices by the haganah, the irgun and the palmach demonstrated terrorism at a scale that was very effective at killing and depopulating the indigenous arabs.

          • MixMike

            "how about the 300+ children just killed in Gaza?"

            See my previous comments for this baseless lie.

            "stop practicing palestinian massacre denial – it is as offensive as holocaust denial."

            That's just it, there are no Palestinian "massacres" perpetrated by Israelis. I fully admit the massacres carried out by the Jordanians and Syrians. Of course no one mentions that, because its only ok to condemn Jews who protect themselves from murder.

            "and that israel is as culpable as anyone else of these murders"

            As stated before Israel does not engage in murder. To commit murder there must be INTENT to kill civilians. Israel has intent to kill terrorists. Unfortuntately civilians get killed in the crossfire. This could be eNTIRELY prevented if Hamas didn't use them as human shields and didn't hide out in civilian enclaves.

            "an influx at volume of any number of foreigners into the country with an intent to expel the indigenous people rarely ends well."

            Good thing that when the Jews came to the region it was barren and they LEGALLY purchased vacant and TENANT FREE land to build their country. The early Zionists were more than clear that they intended to build a country WITH the Arabs and include them as equal citizens. There was never an intent to expel them as you falsely claim. That said, the Arabs had clear intent to push the "Jews into the sea" and to exterminate them (the Grand Mufti wanted to build Nazi death camps to liquidate the Jews of the region). Heck, the Arabs succeeded in ethnically cleansing 800,000+ Jews from Arab/Islamic countries after 1948.

            "and the jewish terrorism of the time practices by the haganah, the irgun and the palmach demonstrated terrorism at a scale that was very effective at killing and depopulating the indigenous arabs."

            As stated before, these groups were defending Jews from murder. The Arabs had been terrorizing Jews long before the mandate period and far more Jews were killed than Arabs by terrorism prior to 1948. Its a simple fact, Arabs and Palestinians are naturally xenophobic and extremely effective at terrorism and murdering innocent civilians.

          • baldarab

            and by the way, from David Ben Gurion's memoires "Until the British left [May 15, 1948] no jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the arabs, while the haganah … captured many arab positions… So on the day of destiny, that part of palestine where the haganah could operate was almost clear of arabs" That's directly from your own David Ben Gurion…

          • MixMike

            You can't even provide the full quote. Ben Gurion has numerous other quotes where he speaks about cooperating and building a state together with the Arabs. This negates any claim that he or the other Israeli leadership planned any type of "ethnic cleansing."

            The fact remains, Israel did not engage in ethnic cleansing whereas this is common among Arab countries.

          • phillipgaley

            In response to some suicide-bomber somewhere, I heard this exasperated exclamation: "Don't they understand [that], can't get what they want that way? What're they trying accomplish?" —so foolish as to attribute common sense, sense of fair play, equity, balance, sense of rectitude and peace to those of a community whose instigation and perpetuation and tolerance for deceit, fully belies that community’s capacity for those former qualities and attributes.
            And our "baldarab" here, appears to be in that same group—but painting, yes "painting" a picture for the suicidal community, a picture of moderate Moslems, and of a moderate Islam, many of whom and of doctrine which, would wish to embrace those formerly mentioned qualities of equity, equality, families in “a peaceful future where we aspire for equality for all.”, etc..
            But, any one of whole mind perfectly knows that, common sense and understanding are hardly be attributed to those who are associated with communities who produce the suicide-bomber.
            Drawing from what the Bald Arab writes: "painting pictures? i pointed out an inescapable fact that the israeli defence force has been responsible for more child deaths than hamas. fact."—and in this, you point out an inescapable fact?
            Oh rully? Say, if I pay you to kill some one, and you kill some one for me—who was the prime mover? And so, who is properly most held responsible, and for posing the greater danger to Society?
            But more nearly to the point of present contention, using children—as those who the Bald Arab would defend, actually do—as human shields, and two seconds later, the responding computers guide missiles to that precise point, in such a case, who then, must bear primary and momentous responsibility—the one who, defending, uses the missiles and computers for that purpose, or, the parent who, even in their earliest ages, trains their children to “hate Jews”—and, though often, not in any useful or significant way to have harmed any Israeli—but even, to throw rocks or by every way thought possible, to put themselves in harm’s way, and solely in order that, if in the very least, not, however slightly to have injured an Israeli, but then—the weaker party to have used her own life, in pursuit of mere propaganda to smear Jews, generally?
            So then, in comparing and using in so slight a way, just exactly who, in the first place, puts the women and children of the community to death?
            Than that, conclusion of onus in the parents and teachers and other community leaders, is much evident and must remain, can it be otherwise?
            And this, exacerbated by the fact that, the prime movers for death in the women and children—and, with our bald arab, here—would hope to remain behind the scenes, occupying their time in further evil inculcations against women and children, and in promulgation to the world of mere pretense of moderation, but in the same breath, wishing moral shelter from the world’s censure upon their misrepresentation and mis-direction, trickery and grossly improper imposition and intimidation, directly resulting in the deaths of these naïve and otherwise weaker of mankind, to be found in a claim of justification for conduct normal to success in war, as but mere things done simply “all in a day's work".
            "Painting"? Yes, painting, painting a picture of Hama’s continuance and achievement and hope for eventual conquest through difficulty, of survival of a community—though irregular the path and at every turn fraught with the “tough choices” of the suicide-bomber.
            Our Bald Arab here, has children, and oh my golly, he just loves “them more than anything on this planet.”?
            Oh rully? Except, he violates the knowledge which every decent parent possesses: That, those parents who love their children, don’t advance argument which would at all, tend to relieve culpability of those communities of parents who do things against children—which, leading them in violence, is. More plainly, by attempting to construct a truth in two directions, our Bald Arab, is constrained to speak with a double tongue; and further, with his cute attempt: “i’ll bet you feel the same.”, to rely upon the thing in deceit, to have passed unnoticed.
            In mental ability and physical preparedness for all things necessary to successful prosecution of a war, finding themselves most unable, but yet, thinking to achieve by any means, in one remove, having abandoned logic, Hamas resorts to the other stratagem—and, in the worst way imaginable; and so, the Hamas are destined to receive in their own person, the appropriate and perpetual reward which is held in reserve just for that kind of evil, . . .

          • baldarab

            i have said all along that i condemn the killing of children. don't try to pervert that with your faulty logic. and that's arab, israeli, british, american, i don't give a damn – all children should be free of the bullshit that these wars subject them to. i will and do condemn the killing of a child by hamas as easily as i do by the idf. it does astound me though that you talk about equivalence when the idf has just butchered over 300 children.

            the only argument i am advancing is that all of this tit for tat is pointless and destructive. and that was where i started this whole thread. that the deaths of israeli children in sderot and ashdod were to be condemned. what you guys fail to see is that it is destructive on both sides to do this. it is far easier to paint a picture of baby-eating palestinians and angelic israelis fighting to stop this. BULLSHIT. both sides shouldn't kill children, civilians, or anyone. but the only way to overcome this is to get to a bigger view and give everyone in the region the right to live as a human. and at the moment, the ones most denied that are the palestinians through this crazy occupation.

          • MixMike

            "it does astound me though that you talk about equivalence when the idf has just butchered over 300 children."

            Again your making up facts. 300 civilians were killed in Cast Lead. There have not been any verified reports among them who were children. It also doesn't distinguish who is a child and who were acting as child soldiers.

            You are trying to suggest that the Israeli's "butcher" Palestinian children and this is just nonsense. Israelis go out of there way to protect civilian lives especially children. Hamas directly targets Israeli children for murder. Palestinians cheer this practice by celebrating "martyrs" who are successful in suicide killing missions. They name town squares after them! Hamas uses child soldiers and bombers to provoke Israel. The only "butchering" of children is being committed by Hamas.

            "it is far easier to paint a picture of baby-eating palestinians and angelic israelis fighting to stop this."

            Unfortunately this is basically true. Palestinian terrorist groups like Hamas have stated that they want to drink the blood of the Jews. They strive to kill Jewish children everywhere (not just Israel). Whereas the Israelis are just trying to protect themselves against murder. Its a hard fact to swallow but you need to do it if you want to ever see the truth.

    • MixMike

      "And in the same way, no one should be subjected to a full out assault that kills over 300 children,"

      Your figures are way off. In Operation Cast Lead, it was estimated the only approximately 280 civilians were killed, there are no official numbers on those that were children. Even still most human rights groups consider anyone under 18 a "child," thus including "child" soldiers of Hamas in with your already over-inflated numbers.

      "leaves over 98% suffering post-traumatic stress disorder,"

      As for PTSD, most of the "analysis" has been done by Anti-Israel/Pro-Palestinian scientists with a clear agenda to attack Israel. Even this skewed research suggests that only approximately 40-60% of Palestinians exhibit any signs of PTSD. While in Sderot, 28% of adults and 30% of children have PTSD.

      "forces over 80% to be dependent on food aid (which still lives most malnourished),"

      No one in Gaza is malnourished. The Washington Post reported in the first week of June that the markets and stores were stocked full and looked like a typical American Rite Aid drug store. There is approximately 1 ton of aid per resident in Gaza alone. The only one stealing food from children is Hamas.

      • baldarab

        Palestinians killed in Cast Lead:
        B'TSelem – 1387 total, 318 minors. World Health Organisation – 1416 total, 313 children. The Israeli Defence Force – 1166 total, 89 under 16. Oxfam, Save the Children, UN – all estimate over 300 child deaths.

        PTSD – the figures most commonly accepted by the international medical profession are that only 1.3% of children in Gaza didn't suffer from any form of PTS. 62% were "severe to very severe", 30% "moderate" and 7% mild.

        "No one in Gaza is malnourished"? The UN states that it needs to provide basic sustenance to 80% of the population, the Food and Agriculture Organisation that 61% is food insecure. Sure, there are shops which are stocked full, just as there are in rich areas in Somalia. It is still inaccessible to the majority of the population due to scarcity and enforced poverty. The WP report is like saying that Americans are all millionaires because of the shops in Beverley Hills.

        We can trade stats forever and people will still blow each other up. Until they start talking about how to get beyond that with a fair solution to all involved, we will just have more pointless deaths and arguments.

        • MixMike

          The reports of casualties during Operation Cast Lead were wildly exaggerated by the media. Journalists and medical professionals relied on anecdotal and heresay information from Palestinian officials in the Gaza Strip. Palestinian officials employed by Hamas who had an incentive to skew casualty numbers to hurt Israel. Even still, the fact remains that innocent Palestinians died as a result of the war that HAMAS PROVOKED. Perhaps more children could have been saved if Hamas did not "bravely" use them as human shields and as child soldiers. When will the Palestinians condemn this practice?

          "The UN states that it needs to provide basic sustenance to 80% of the population, the Food and Agriculture Organisation that 61% is food insecure."

          All this means is that the UN is providing food, it doesn't mean the people are starving. Israel has transferred more than 1 million tons of humanitarian aid including food aid to Gaza over the past 18 months. Fact is, the reason Gazans are reliant on foreign aid sources is because they refuse to build their own infrastructure. Instead, Hamas is more preoccupied with killing Jews than helping its own people.

          By the way, here is photo proof that the Gazans are not starving: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/

          "We can trade stats forever and people will still blow each other up. Until they start talking about how to get beyond that with a fair solution to all involved, we will just have more pointless deaths and arguments."

          I agree completely with you, I just think you are putting some of the blame where it doesn't belong.

          • baldarab

            you claim wild exaggeration on internationally respected bodies, facts are biased if they don’t suit your story. when most world bodies get to the same conclusions based on the same facts, you've got to open your eyes rather than adopting an isolated approach that only israeli versions of events are true. even the idf accepts that there were large numbers of casualties in cast lead.

            "provocation" is a crazy argument. if gaza and palestinian arabs were not occupied from ‘48, we'd not be talking about this. The occupation is the original provocation, everything since is an eye for an eye. most palestinians condemn human shields and child soldiers – do most israelis condemn idf killing of palestinian children?

            food insecurity is defined as lack of access to sufficient safe food. the FAO says 61% in Gaza are food insecure. you can't build up infrastructure when israel refuses pipes to repair sewage plants, cement to rebuild schools it destroyed and so on. i've been trying to get a playground built there for over a year, but can't get supplies in to do it. nice photos – here's a video clip http://bit.ly/bzgwzH. we can both find these. read UN reports instead.

    • Chris

      The only equitable solution to Hamas is the total destruction of the state of Israel. Wake up!!!!!

      • baldarab

        and the alternative is for the IDF to slaughter palestinian children? with that option, why wake up?

        • MixMike

          IDF does not engage in slaughtering Palestinian children, that is the job of Hamas using them as human shields, child soldiers and suicide bombers.

  • EdwinS

    What ever happened to carpet-bombing? — But no. — Israel would never do that – somebody might get hurt…

  • ciccio

    All this bull**** about the starving Palestinians. Apart from the billions they get from the UNRW
    last year they got another $52 million from the World food program on top of getting aid from just about every other UN agency. Is there no one who will ever ask why the Palestinians do NOT get treated like other refugees, why the UN has over 25,000 employees looking after 4 million Palestinians when there are but 6,000 looking after the rest of the worlds refugees. Is there no one who will ask why the world has to pay 5 times as much for a Palestinian than any other refugee. Is there no one who will ever ask why it is that Israel managed to absorb nearly a million refugees, after the war Europe managed rto absorb some 10 million, another 10 million have since been created and absorbed by the rest of the world but the entire Muslim world has refused to give any of their fellow Arab Muslims citizenship, even if they were born there and have lived there for generations.

    On the subject of world food program it is interesting to note that last year they purchased 16,344 tons of food for $ 13,106,735 to feed the starving Palestinians from guess who? None other than the not so starving Palestinians. In the same way that they bought 44,284 tons in Bangladesh to feed the starving Bangladeshis, 73,591 tons in Ethiopia to feed the starving Ethiopians, 117,195 tons in Uganda to feed the starving Ugandans, go down the list, 70% of the so called starving are with with food bought in the country of the starving. This is of course in line with the UN policy that the wealth of the underdeveloped world goes to the kleptocracy runnning those countries, the poverty belongs to the west.

  • ciccio

    I feared I might be exaggerating when I said the world spends 5 times as much on a Fakestinian as on any other refugee, I checked and indeed I was way out. There are 4.6 million Fakestinians who cost the UNRWA $807 million in 2008, $175 per refugee. The agency has 25,000 employees which means 534 employees per million. The UNHCR on the other hand looks after 10.5 million refugees plus another 27 million internally displaced, 37.5 million, 2008 expenses $ 1.57 billion, $41 per refugee. They also have a staff of 6,200, 165 employees per million. So before the entire Arab league come down on me for Islamophobia and spreading Zionist falsehoods, mea culpa, Iwas wrong, it is not 5 times as much. It is only 4.268 times as much.

    • baldarab

      and why is there the need to spend a single $ on this issue? because israel created the longest and most intractable refugee issue on the planet today, and unlike ethiopia or bangladesh, the need for dependency on this is man-made through continued israeli occupation rather than natural circumstance. finish the occupation, give jew, muslim and christian the same rights, and we can end this pretty quickly.

      • MixMike

        "because israel created the longest and most intractable refugee issue on the planet today, and unlike ethiopia or bangladesh, the need for dependency on this is man-made through continued israeli occupation rather than natural circumstance."

        Wrong, the Arabs have made this the longest refugee issue on the planet today. The so-called "refugees" are just a propaganda tool used by the Arab governments to attack Israel. And what about the 800,000+ Jewish refugees from Arab nations?

        "give jew, muslim and christian the same rights, and we can end this pretty quickly."

        Um Jews, Muslims and Christians all already have equal rights under Israeli law.

        • baldarab

          expulsion of the arabs from palestine by the israeli terrorist groups irgun, haganah and other, then subsequently by the IDF and a set of occupation policies that make life unsufferable. you're right, probably that had nothing to do with creating a refugee issue.

          do you see no conflict at all from an insistence on a "jewish state" and equality of rights for practitioners of all religions? so for equal rights, how about the "law of return" is extended not only to jews who have no blood or territorial connection to israel, but also to people of all religions who were actually born there and their immediate descendents? that would be a good start to equal rights.

          or maybe the jewish national fund's endoresement and use by the government to increase jewish land ownership over muslim or christian ones? the various government sponsored plans to increase jewish ownership and reduce muslim/christian ones? or the absentees property law which has robbed muslims and christians of land for use by jews in israel?

          give them the same rights de jure and de facto, and then you can deride my comment.

          • MixMike

            "expulsion of the arabs from palestine by the israeli terrorist groups irgun, haganah and other, then subsequently by the IDF and a set of occupation policies that make life unsufferable. you're right, probably that had nothing to do with creating a refugee issue."

            As I have previously explained this is just plain nonsense. The vast majority of the Arabs willingly left after Israel's independence to allow the Arab armies to invade and "liquidate" the Jews. The Israelis even had plans to repatriate 300,000 Arabs in the early 50's but it was rejected by the Arab states so they could prolong the refugee issue and use it as propaganda to destroy Israel.

            "do you see no conflict at all from an insistence on a "jewish state" and equality of rights for practitioners of all religions?"

            Israel is a SECULAR state. It respects the rights of all religions and allows them to practice freely under the law. The 1.5 million Arabs in Israel have more religious freedom and civil rights than in any Arab/Islamic country in the world.

            "how about the "law of return" is extended not only to jews who have no blood or territorial connection to israel, but also to people of all religions who were actually born there and their immediate descendents?"

            Zionism is "the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, which holds that Jews, like any other nation, are entitled to a homeland." Israel's Law of Return does allow Jews to automatically immigrate to Israel, but they still have to apply for citizenship. That said, non-Jews are also eligible to become citizens under naturalization procedures similar to those in other countries. Arab citizens also enjoy government affirmative action programs.

            "or maybe the jewish national fund's endoresement and use by the government to increase jewish land ownership over muslim or christian ones? the various government sponsored plans to increase jewish ownership and reduce muslim/christian ones? or the absentees property law which has robbed muslims and christians of land for use by jews in israel?"

            In the lat 19th century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase (vacant and tenant free) land in the region to build a Jewish state. This land, and that acquired after the 1948 War of Independence, is controlled by Israel's government. About 92% of the land is PUBLIC (owned by the government) and managed by the Land Management Authority. This land is not available for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab – it is purely PUBLIC land.

            The remaining 8% of the territory is PRIVATELY owned. Interestingly enough, part of this land is owned by the Arab Waqf and is only available for the benefit of Muslim Arabs.

            The PUBLIC land can be leased equally by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex – including the Arabs.

  • baldarab

    to MixMike's post

    you claim internationally respected bodies exaggerate and facts are biased if they don’t suit your story. when see the same facts and get to the same conclusions, you've got to open your eyes rather than adopting an isolated approach that only israeli versions of events are true. even the idf accepts that there were large numbers of casualties in cast lead.

    "provocation" is a crazy argument. if gaza and palestinian arabs were not occupied from ‘48, we'd not be talking about this. The occupation is the original provocation, everything since is an eye for an eye. most palestinians condemn human shields and child soldiers – do most israelis condemn idf killing of palestinian children?

    food insecurity is defined as lack of access to sufficient safe food. the FAO says 61% in Gaza are food insecure. you can't build up infrastructure when israel refuses pipes to repair sewage plants, cement to rebuild schools it destroyed and so on. i've been trying to get a playground built there for over a year, but can't get supplies in to do it. nice photos – here's a video clip http://bit.ly/bzgwzH. we can both find these. read UN reports instead.

    • MixMike

      You posted this 5 times, I responded to the first post.

      • baldarab

        yes – sorry, my browser wasn't updating this!

  • ciccio

    I will agree with baldarab that Jerusalem has been occupied, as has Cairo, Tripoli, Beirut, Bagdad,Damascus, Constantinople and any point in between. Occupied by a marauding bloodthirsty murderous band of Beduin bandits inspired by an even bloodthirstier magalomaniac who suffered sun-stroke in the extreme heat and threreafter heard voices.
    In 1700 Hadriani Relandi toured all the places mentioned in the bible and published a book on his travels. It is on the web but you are going to have to learn Latin first to read it. In Gaza for example he found predominantly Jews and Christians as in the rest of Israel. The few Arabs that were there were mainly nomadic Beduins, in fact the population was pretty much the same as when the first Jews started returning in the late 1800's. What caused the influx of Arabs from the neighbouring territories was the fact that for the first time since big Mo the lands were made productive. Until the Jews made something of it Israel was a forgotten and neglected corner of the Ottoman empire whose only redeeming virtue was the taxes raised from the predominantly Christian and Jewish inhabitants. With the development of railways and steamships in Europe the pilgrim trade to Israel picked up substantially and only then did Israel figure a little more prominently to the Ottomans.

  • Ben

    Hey Baldarab, think about this:

    "If Israel's enemies would put down their guns there would be no more war. If Israel put down its guns, there would be no more Israel."

    You cannot deny that statement.

    • baldarab

      i cannot stop laughing at how shockingly myopic that statement is! the palestinians are living on land that is shrinking by the week. their land is disappearing faster than cold Manischewitz on a hot passover.

      So Ben, think about this:
      "if everyone put down their guns and started talking, maybe we'd argue a lot. but far fewer people would die". That would be a start…

  • baldarab

    it is astounding that i started by suggesting that everyone stopped the killing, and the active populace of this site launches into me for this viewpoint. who here is the one in favour of killing?

    • MixMike

      I am not in favor of killing, but I am in favor of stopping Palestinian terrorist from killing innocent Israeli civilians.

      • baldarab

        ok. so i have told you i do not support the killing of anyone in sderot (right at the start of this whole debate). will you tell me you do not support the killing of people in gaza?

        • MixMike

          I don't support the intentional killing of any civilians, be it Israeli or Palestinians. However, I fully support the killing of Hamas terrorists (who are actively trying to murder Israelis) in Gaza.

          • baldarab

            fantastic. at last i have some shred of humanity. you don't support the killing of civilians, including palestinians, just as i don't support the killing of civilians, including israelis. we have some common ground to start on. maybe one day that might be the basis of a better outcome than everyone bombing everyone else.

            now, i'm going to spend some time loving my children. i hope you do too.

  • baldarab

    Haaretz reports yesterday:

    In the Gaza Strip, Operation Cast Lead was experienced primarily as a war against civilians. In the neighborhood of Zeitun, it was manifest in the point-blank killing of civilians in front of their families; preventing the arrival of rescuers, including shooting and killing them; stopping civilians fleeing the neighborhood from taking the injured with them (at least five people died this way, including two children, not only from the Al-Samouni family ); shooting at people waving a white flag; using human shields (in a home that was turned into a temporary a command post ); destroying homes, greenhouses and agricultural areas; spraying graffiti on walls, with "Kill the Arabs"

  • MixMike

    Nice try, but Amira Hass provides no evidence in her article for the accusations levied against the IDF by the Al-Samouni family. The facts with Operation Cast Lead were clear. Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and was thanked with thousands of rockets fired at Israeli with the intention of killing civilians. Israel responded and TARGETTED Terrorists. Of the approximately 1,100 killed over 700 were known terrorists! Hamas is to blame for any civilian casualties as they hid in civilian enclaves and "bravely" used children as human shields. Quit whining because Israel defends itself from CONSTANT Palestinian aggression.

  • ajax

    you're so right. thank heavens that the idf killed all those dangerous babies and children in cast lead.