Symposium: The Fear that Wilders is Right

Jamie Glazov is Frontpage Magazine's editor. He holds a Ph.D. in History with a specialty in Russian, U.S. and Canadian foreign policy. He is the author of the critically acclaimed and best-selling, United in Hate: The Left’s Romance with Tyranny and Terror. His new book is High Noon For America. He is the host of Frontpage’s television show, The Glazov Gang, and he can be reached at jamieglazov11@gmail.com. Visit his site at JamieGlazov.com.


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In this special edition of Frontpage Symposium, we have assembled a distinguished panel to discuss the question: What psychological impulses and neuroses prevent people from objectively considering whether or not Islam is a religion of peace? In other words: Why the rigid disinclination to even consider the evidence that suggests that someone like Geert Wilders might be right?

Our guests today are:

Roger L. Simon, the author of ten novels, including the eight prize-winning Moses Wine detective novels, which have been published in many editions and translated in over a dozen languages. He is also a screenwriter and has written for all the major Hollywood studios, including Bustin’ Loose with Richard Pryor, Scenes from a Mall with Woody Allen and the adaptation of his own The Big Fix with Richard Dreyfuss.  Simon received an Academy Award nomination for his adaptation of Isaac Singer’s Enemies, A Love Story in 1989. The author of Blacklisting Myself: A Hollywood Apostate in an Age of Terror, he is the co-founder and CEO of Pajamas Media.

Dr. Kenneth Levin, a clinical instructor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, a Princeton-trained historian, and a commentator on Israeli politics. He is the author of The Oslo Syndrome: Delusions of a People Under Siege.

and

Robert Spencer, a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of ten books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran, is available now from Regnery Publishing, and he is coauthor (with Pamela Geller) of the forthcoming book The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration’s War on America (Simon and Schuster).

FP: Roger Simon, Robert Spencer and Kevin Levin, welcome to Frontpage Symposium.

Today we witness the blatant desperation in our culture and media for a “moderate Islam” — an Islam that many non-Muslims vehemently insist exists, but that mysteriously eludes them. This moderate Islam will make everything better, we are told, once the “extremists,” who are the “minority” in Islam, will be sedated. This sedation will be most easily achieved, the argument continues, when the Islamophobes stop blaming Islam after Islamic terrorists point to Islamic scriptures in explaining what inspired them to perpetrate their terrorist attacks.

Meanwhile, in terms of the planet that we happen to be occupying, a “moderate Islam” is nowhere to be found; no school of Islamic jurisprudence exists that counsels Muslims to renounce the Qur’an’s teachings on Islamic supremacism and the obligation of violent jihad. And yet, to suggest the truth of this reality in our culture gets one only the accusation of being a racist and an “Islamophobe.”

Roger Simon, let me begin with you. What do you think of this phenomenon? You recently wrote a profound piece at Pajamas that touched on one of its crucial foundations. In analyzing why the likes of Glenn Beck and Charles Krauthammer have attacked Geert Wilders, you interpreted that these conservative individuals, from whom we might have expected something different on this score, are, what it all comes down to it, rejecting Wilders because they are afraid that he might be right.

Share your angle on this with us.

Simon: Although I have tremendous respect for my colleagues in this symposium, I can’t imagine anything more depressing to write about or to discuss.  The world is in a horrible Catch-22 and Geert Wilders is the ultimate “canary in a coal mine” for trying to tell the truth about it.

Islam is an almost unsolvable conundrum.  How do you deal with a religion with a billion adherents that is expansionist in ideology and threatens to kill its apostates?   How do you get a reformation of that religion when its holy book, from which those dictums come, is reputed to be dictated verbatim by God and is therefore immutable?  Talk about “inconvenient truths,” these are about as inconvenient as they get. No wonder they are buried from the discussion and ignored.  We in the West live in a society that cannot even begin to wrap its mind around that.  I know – it’s hard for me.

So where does that leave Wilders?  I believe that consciously or unconsciously those who brand him as excessive, or even racist, are living in fear that he may be right.  They have to hate Wilders, because if he is correct, their whole world disintegrates.  Who would want that?

He and the small group like him have therefore morphed into our clearest contemporary examples of those poor Greek messengers to be killed for bringing the bad news. A salient recent example is Nicholas Kristof’s unhinged attack on Ayaan Hirsi Ali in the New York Times Book Review – a supposed liberal going off on a woman who had a cliterodectomy for daring to dwell on how women were oppressed in the Islamic world. It’s almost pathological. Another recent example are the similarly unhinged attacks on Israel over the Gaza flotilla incident while completely ignoring vastly more horrific acts occurring in the Muslim world on an almost daily basis.  We dare not insult them lest they go mad.

It’s almost as if the world has become a giant dysfunctional family, enabling their huge Muslim branch to remain besotted – or drugged out – on sub-Medieval ideology. And the situation is getting worse.  The principle bastion of hope of reformation of the Islamic world – Turkey – made its turn back toward fundamentalism years ago now.

So again, where does that leave Wilders?  One lonely canary.  We have to support him, but I’m not optimistic. I hope my colleagues are.

FP: Thank you Roger Simon.

Kenneth Levin your thoughts? A species of the Oslo syndrome is involved in this phenomenon right?

Levin: I do see a form of the Oslo Syndrome operating here. In the Oslo agreements, Israel embraced Yasir Arafat and his PLO as its “peace partner” even as Arafat and those around him were making clear, in word and deed, that their goal remained Israel’s annihilation. In looking at Israel’s self-destructive Oslo policies, I discussed the phenomenon of segments within a minority population that is under siege – whether the situation be a minority marginalized, denigrated and otherwise attacked by the surrounding majority within a polity, or a small state under constant assault by larger neighbors – commonly embracing the indictments of their enemies, however bigoted or absurd or murderous those indictments. They delude themselves that by doing so, and promoting concomitant self-reform and concessions, their enemies will be appeased and grant them peace.

While most common among minorities at risk, the same phenomenon can be seen within large and powerful populations faced with new and dangerous external threats. This became obvious in the United States after 9/11.

The perpetrators of 9/11 and their myriad supporters quickly made clear their objective of imposing their Islamist rule worldwide and their comprehension of doing so as a religious duty. Yet many in America sought, and continue to seek, to recast the threat, to rationalize it, and to urge policies aimed at appeasing Islamist leaders and followers in the delusional hope of thereby extricating the nation from the dangers it faces.

Geert Wilders argues that Islamofascism derives directly from Islamic teachings, including Koranic exhortations. His movie, Fitna, advancing this argument, is unimpeachable in its citations of Islamic scripture and in its images of Islamofascism on the march. That those who oppose him are motivated in large part by a wish to appease the purveyors of the Islamist threat is indicated by the fact that the negative responses to Wilders have focused not on rebutting his arguments but on demonizing him and using anti-democratic means to silence him. As Roger Simon suggests, they are compelled to hate Wilders because they so want to cling to their delusional denial of the threat.

The ugly, perverse, self-destructive nature of the assault on Wilders, and the necessity to defend him, have been articulated by many. Particularly noteworthy is the stance of Daniel Pipes, in that Pipes disagrees with some of the substance of Wilders’ arguments, believing in the possibility of a moderate Islam, but has forcefully supported Wilders and attacked the shoddy treatment to which he has been subjected, the anti-democratic efforts to silence him and punish him through the courts, and the broad movement – as illustrated in the indictments of Wilders - to quash free discussion of the nature of the Islamist war being waged against the West. Pipes has stated that Wilders’ unique confronting of the Islamist challenge – pursued without the baggage of neo-Fascist, nativist, or conspiricist extremism that have characterized some others in Europe decrying Islamic inroads – has rendered him the most important European alive today.

Beyond the unconscionable attempts to silence Wilders, there are other indications, both in Europe and America, that the hostility directed against him is motivated primarily by a wish to deny the threats we face and to appease its agents. Thus, in both Europe and the U.S., we have a huge chorus of officials insisting Islam is a religion of peace, They insist that Islamist forces pursuing a war of world conquest have “hijacked” the religion and that the vast majority of Muslims are peace-loving and tolerant. Yet these same officials give virtually no public support to those - too few - Muslims within their nations who at once declare themselves to be believing Muslims and do speak out forcefully against Islamofascism. On the contrary, such people are typically ignored and government outreach is almost invariably directed to individuals and groups linked to Islamist, hatred-promoting agendas.

In the U.S., for example, how much government attention or acknowledgement or support has been given to the likes of Zuhdi Jasser, an Arizona physician and believing Muslim who has dedicated himself to attacking the bigoted, hateful voices that have come to dominate Islamic institutions in America? Even if one is convinced that Jasser and like-minded individuals are pursuing a hopeless course because their interpretation of Islam is so starkly at odds with the religion’s seminal texts and seminal message, one would still have to believe it makes sense for the nation to give such people all the support it can in advancing their perspectives. But in fact, Jasser and those like him have been essentially ignored by American officialdom and it is the allies of the Islamists who are courted and feted by officials at every level of government, including law enforcement agencies.

One can argue there is often a more venal motive behind this phenomenon. Saudi Arabia is the prime financier of Muslim extremism in the U.S., including of education in bigotry – particularly anti-Jewish and anti-Christian bigotry - in U.S. mosques and Islamic schools, and Saudi Arabia is pandered to because of its oil wealth and its readiness to use its prodigious financial resources to win official tolerance of its intolerant message. But if officials and others looked honestly at the existential threats we face from Islamofascism, the likelihood is they would be less inclined to politics as usual and to being swayed against defensive measures by Saudi blandishments. The impact of the Saudi role is a reflection of widespread official averting of eyes from the nature of the threat.

One can also argue that much of the Western accommodationist reaction to the Islamist threat, and desire to silence Wilders’ message, are a product of Western leftist orthodoxy. The combination of hostility towards the West, moral relativism, and boosterism regarding virtually anything non-Western or anti-Western – all seminal doctrines of the contemporary leftist catechism – inevitably leads to denial of, or excuses for, or even defense of, the Islamist challenge.

But even among those whose ideological allegiances weigh against looking honestly at the nature of the threat, there were many individuals who responded to 9/11, and the additional terror that followed on the atrocities of that day, and the declarations of Islamofascism’s leaders and minions, by reevaluating their leftist ideology and abandoning their old verities for a saner comprehension of the realities we face. Those who continue day after day to cling to their delusions regarding the nature of the threat do so by persisting, day after day – out of a desperate desire to believe reality to be otherwise, to believe the threat can be wished away or rationalized away or appeased away – to continue averting their eyes from the nature of the challenge.

FP: Robert Spencer, your thoughts on the need to hate Wilders so one can cling to one’s delusional denial of the threat we face? What do you think of Roger Simon’s and Kenneth Levin’s perspectives?

You bring a personal aspect to this as well, because your name can substitute Wilders in our own culture. You are very much hated for telling the truth that many people simply cannot accept, because the consequences are just too frightening and depressing. Share your thoughts with us on this phenomenon and also your personal experience with being a Wilders figure in our own society.

Spencer: Jamie, Roger Simon is quite right that those who call Wilders “excessive, or even racist…have to hate Wilders, because if he is correct, their whole world disintegrates.” Although I am no Geert Wilders, I’ve encountered this phenomenon many times: people essentially admitting that they don’t want to face up to the truths that Wilders and others enunciate because they believe the implications of those truths are simply too terrible to contemplate. I was told several years ago that the editorial board of a major American publication, when asked to do a profile on me and feature my writing, turned down the proposal because if what I was saying were true, “the U.S. would find itself at war with every Muslim country in the world.”

I don’t accept that as a natural outcome of what I say, but I find interesting the open avowal of the idea that what I say about Islam and jihad simply cannot be true, because if it were, the implications would be too disturbing to contemplate – and so therefore it must be false, or at least should be ignored! I encountered this again in a debate with a professor of Islamic studies at a significant American university, whose opening gambit in response to my initial presentation was to tell the audience that if what I said were true, it would be very depressing – as if that were sufficient to establish its falsity.

Contributing to the persistence of this unreality is something that Kenneth Levin alludes to – the fact that “the negative responses to Wilders have focused not on rebutting his arguments but on demonizing him and using anti-democratic means to silence him.” That demonization is a tested and true weapon in the Islamic supremacist arsenal, as well as that of the Left (here is yet more evidence confirming your own thesis, Jamie, in your excellent book, United in Hate), and it is so frequently employed because it is so very effective. There are so many spineless conformists on the Right in America – they are very easily cowed by charges that someone is a “racist,” or a “bigot,” or even worse, an “Islamophobe,” and maybe even a secret “neo-Nazi.”

It doesn’t matter if there is absolutely nothing to these charges (and in the case of Wilders and others thus charged and shunned, including my colleague and coauthor Pamela Geller and myself, there isn’t); for many prominent mainstream “conservatives,” the charges themselves are enough. They will shun any contact or association with people who have been thus tarred. They are thoughtless and cowardly enough to run in the other direction at the mere suggestion of a taint, often without even investigating the case themselves. They don’t seem to realize that by doing this they’re playing the Leftist/Islamic supremacist game — effectively allowing the opposition to define the terms of the debate, choose the playing field, and make the rules. And that, it goes without saying, is a sure path to defeat.

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  • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

    "… that it won’t require a disaster on the scale of 9/11 to rouse the public to that greater determination…" – Yet even the 9/11, the most deadly attack ever on the American soil did not rouse the adequate determination! Otherwise on 9/12/2001 Mecca and Medina ought to be nuked – and that alone would throw Islam back giving the world hundreds years of peace. This and only this would be the proper response of a super power to such an attack. Yet the unique window of opportunity was missed…

    Now we are engaged in a not so much global psy-war, but rather in the existential war for the very survival of our civilization, teh war complicated with terrible confluence of many deadly factors together, so that the odds of our victory are not clear at all:
    http://www.resonoelusono.com/Imminent.htm

    Meanwhile we must rid of Islam within our borders. Not everything in the world belongs here. If there were only one thing that absolutely does not belong to America, it is Islam.

    • John Mark

      Alexander, I was impressed by your article about war being imminent. Liked your quote from Gladstone too! You mention many reasons why war is imminent and you have clearly done some deep thinking on this matter.

      I am, frankly, embarrassed to give another reason to add to yours. Embarrassed because the author of the reason, unlike Gladstone, tends to be despised in regard to what he said. Still, you might deal kindly with me since I have with you!

      A Man stood in Jerusalem and forecast what he called the Great Distress at some time in the future. That Man gave us an indicator as to when the Great Distress would take place. He said, "When you see Jerusalem (aka Israel's capital) surrounded by armed camps, then know that its utter destruction is close at hand." I think that sign is now in existence!

      • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

        Thank you! I hear you. Do you mean Luke, 21 and the words of Jesus? I see no reasons to despise anybody for a distressful prophecy. Among those who foretold the imminence of this war was also Zachariah, 14… If you are interested in this discussion, you are very welcomed to contact me at g a l e x @ s k i . o r g

        • John Mark

          Yes, indeed, the prophecy of Jesus Christ, the Son of God according to my faith.

          Thank you also for the invitation to discuss the imminence of this coming war. I will think about it, although I am not immediately certain where discusssion fits in to such a terrible distress. Maybe in regard to self-preservation conduct such as getting rid of one's debts, if at all possible.

    • Victor

      Besides the despicable fact you'd like to see the death of millions of people, among them primarily innocent mothers, children and grandparents, just to stop a little bit of terrorism, it also speaks of an incredible lack of causal thinking to think that nuking Mecca and Medina will not increase terrorism.
      You should be ashamed for suggesting it and if you do not, you have to go to a shrink (no pun intended).

    • Victor

      Besides the despicable fact you'd like to see the death of millions of people, among them primarily innocent mothers, children and grandparents, just to stop a little bit of terrorism, it also speaks of an incredible lack of causal thinking to think that nuking Mecca and Medina will not increase terrorism.

  • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

    Yes, the truth is so terrible that it must not be possibly "true"!

    The behavior of the previous and particularly current administrations in respect to the global Islamic threat is exactly such as if say the J. F. Kennedy's assassination were 100% on Soviets. (I do not know that). Then, to acknowledge the truth would mean to acknowledge the act of war and the necessity of a nuclear exchange with USSR.

    As a Russian saying puts it: Spit into the fool's face – yet he would say that it is raining…

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/plymouthedl plymouthedl

    I would say that US and UK politics are as corrupt as any third world country. European politics are no different. I would suggest that our hero Geert Wilders will be murdered by muslims on the orders of the European ruling elite. The Elite will allow the security surrounding Wilders to elapse momentarily. We all must stand up and fight this tyranny so our children dont have to!!!!! NO SURRENDER!!!!!!

    • ajnn

      TRhere is precedent for such a corrupt bargain.

      Germany, Italy, and other EU nations made a 'deal' with Arafat and the PLO. The terms were that Arafat would not kill any of their citizens in exchange for an opportunity to operate freely in their countries.

      This is documented and acknowledged by Italy, Germany, and others.

    • ignominius

      It is time for all of us to stand up both here in the UK and in the US to the threat that comes to the things held dear by us all, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We are two nations bound by common ideals expressed in slightly different ways. We have allowed Islam to use those against us. Now it's time for men of the West to stand and fight (intellectually speaking) and use the tools we have, truth, strength of character, morality and above all justice. NS!

  • badaboo

    civilised people will ALWAYS UNDERESTIMATE the barbarians , who understand only one language – brute force . nothing else will dissuade them from their goal ,which is world domination.
    just because barbarians can be dressed in buisiness suits ,and speak the words that are desired to be heard , even though their actions clearly contradict those words , yet are they to be believed ?
    how many "politicians " in this country are willing to call this plague EXACTLY what it is ?
    how many are willing to put it all on the line as does Wilders ?

    Fools ALL , there is no moderate islam .

    • NObama is GOODbama

      "The (Hun) is either at your feet or at your throat"
      …………..Sir Winston Churchill, a very wise Englishman

  • http://www.moorthymuthuswamy.com/ M. Muthuswamy

    Telling everyone what Islam stands for through the platform of science may be among the most effective ways of conveying the messsage to both non-Muslims and Muslims alike (specifically that of educated Muslims).
    http://frontpagemag.com/2010/04/09/is-wilders-wro

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/duh_swami duh_swami

    There is something to willful ignorance and denial based on fear…
    See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil'…'Don't worry be happy'…'Tip toe thru the tulips'…
    Please don't disturb my complacency…That's 'Percival the Pure Fool'. Looking up while he's about to step off a cliff…Wilders is looking straight ahead and see's the cliff, he warns Percival who would rather ignore it…The results are predictable…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

    Why is there this inordinate fear of the billion Muslims? There is this defeatist attitude that we are sunk if we have a billion people as an enemy. During the Cold War, China had a billion! We didn’t fear to name the enemy. We didn’t say “let’s close our eyes” there are too many to contemplate. We didn't give up.

    Of course we don’t have to fight a billion. We don’t even have to fight a million. We only have to show that we will kill as many as it takes and not shrug for a second. This would establish a deterrent. After we bombed Japan few doubted we had the will … now we are seen as a paper tiger.

    What we have to fear is our fellow Americans who can’t contemplate killing like we did in WWII. We have to fight the guilt-infested Americans who can’t accept that we had to defeat aboriginal savages to establish civilization in our continent. We have to deal with a leftist media that distorts and vilifies our fighting men and women.

    The enemy within is what makes the enemy abroad so dangerous.

    • NObama is GOODbama

      Correct.
      "….kill enough of the enemy until they stop killing you"
      …………………General Curtis Lemay, commander of the air campaign against Japan during WW2

      • Will Doohan

        Gen. LeMay also said that if ours had been the losing side he would probably have been convicted of crimes against humanity for the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo. It should also be noted that despite all of the bombing of their infrastructure, factories, and later population centers, that the Germans and Japanese continued to fight until they were either 1) almost completely annihilated like the Germans, and/or 2) annihilated and had atom bombs dropped on them like the Japanese.

        This leads us to a worst case scenario of fighting 1 billion fanatics whom we will be forced to kill down to almost the last women and child.

        No wonder the so called 'intellectuals' of the West are depressed. And it is also no wonder that they are trying to find a way to avoid that scenario. I remember discussing this with a friend and saying the same thing about "we might have to slaughter them all, a war of attrition" I then hesitated for a second after he said that would be horrible and said "I agree, I think it's a morally repugnant thing to have to do."

        My biggest fear of the future is this is the kind of war that is going to come to pass. I hope that I am as wrong about that as I was about their being an inevitable WW III between the US and the Soviets.

    • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

      Absolutely correct! We must not fight one billion Moslems. As I wrote here, on 9/12/2001 we ought to nuke Mecca and Medina – and that alone would throw Islam back giving the world hundreds years of peace. Alas, meanwhile our government not only is on different page, but in different book…

    • Chezwick

      No question, if Islam was a religion practiced by a few hundred people in the remote reaches of Siberia, we would view it with a mixture of anthropological curiosity and outright cultural sanction. We would no doubt recoil at the barbarities of lapidations, amputations, and the killing of apostates.

      As it is – simply because of that 1.2 BILLION number – we somehow feel it is incumbent upon us to validate Islam as a belief system, regardless of its actual content. For the Left, this validation is part and parcel of a broader anti-Western agenda. For the rest, it's fear, pure and simple.

      We seem to be under the collective delusion that if we keep reciting by rote that Islam is peaceful and tolerant, it will become so….and the collective awakening is nowhere in sight.

    • John Mark

      Jason, I wonder if it is an inordinate fear of billions of Muslims or, as I think, an inordinate fear of the nuclear war that Islamic belligerence is going to unleash on the human population, whether billions of Muslims or billions of non-Muslims.

      Nuclear bombs and missiles will, surely, lead to radioactive dust clouds swirling around in the global atmosphere and descending on any creatures on the ground, whether human or animal, religious or secular, Muslim or Christian.

      I also fear the electromagnetic consequences of nuclear explosions on our computers and internet. Without computers, what will happen to food distribution and health care?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/imnokuffar imnokuffar

    The battle must be joined on the educational, psychological and religious fronts. Educationally we must not miss an opportunity to expose Muslim and Leftwing/Liberal falsehoods about the true nature of Islam. Psychologically we must explain to be the cunning tricks Dawah/Taquia used by the Muslims and supported by the PC/Multicultural elite. Religiously we must expose the heretofore covered up persecution of Christians, Sikhs, Hindus and all others who are persecuted by Muslims.
    Unfortunately this can only come about when the Muslims have commited other attacks on western capitals. This will be the moment of truth – literally. There will be more attacks as night follows day.

  • Mark Goldberg

    There are two problems. The problem of Islam, and the other problem- the suicide of the west. That Islam is founded by an evil guy, one guy, who's history is filled with homicidism, calls to tyranny, against all others, who demanded no christians or jews ever live in arabia as his last act, are but the tip of that ugly story. And the history of it's acts are facts enough, neither cherry picked nor mere insinuations- that Islam is a religion of demanded conquest, and colonizing of the world. And that is what Islam has been doing, killing all others and it's own, and we sit and excuse them and it for their poor self esteem or feelings of inferiority which really is a sign of ours…. which comes about due too the self induced suicide of the west- it's own 'inferiority' that allows it to excuse tyrannies and utterly failed utopian socialist schemes as it's own symptomatology.
    And the attacks on Israel, on the Jews, on the Torah, is the evidence for the suicidal cutting off of the root of the west from it's own 3300 yr old march to what made it the best of the civilizations on the planet and warts and all, gave more improvement, more human rights, more goods, services and dignity than the other aspects of civilizations on the planet.
    So…going after the immense amount of theologic and historically verified hatred, murderousness of it's 'god' and it's 'prophet' – for instance, the prophets murdering of 800-900 jews who refused to confirm his prophetic authority, in one day, in front of his 12 yr old 'wife' is example enough of what the differences are as to what 'martyrdom' is and how it is defined in Islam, versus the judeo christian west. And on and on it goes. The 15,500 or so murdered in 9 yrs since 9/11 has evidence enough- murdered buildings of school children, murdered buidlings of even muslim women and school children, etc etc. world wide, to give enought weight to heap scorn and derision upon the Islamic defenders.
    But the suicide of the west is much more serious. The attack upon our right to 'exist' as we have is what we should be attacking at with equal force. And if people think that the President can insist that social service is the mission of NASA, to give the Islamic world reason to feel good about it's purported scientific accomplishments 700 yrs ago- which are not only false but used to excuse the west's accomplishments that have occurred vastly more so- as well as others in the world these last 700 yrs, , then let the howling begin.
    The purpose of the US, is not to make the slavers of sudanese blacks, want to be homicidists of jews, Christians, hindus, buddhists, et all, and other infidels, and rulers of the world by command to slaughter if not accepted, to feel 'good about their accomplishments', as an act of our science and efforts and money.
    People should be protesting to all their congressman about the scuttling of the NASA charter and missions and there the condemnations can also rightly begin. Let Islam remove all it's vicious calls to submit the west from it's textbooks and to it's children and build a few churches and synogogues in Saudi Arabia free from the 'thought' police and free from the muslim edicts that such are 'unclean' and can never exist there.
    Then we'll have 'dialoque. Until, then……..

    • Goyim

      Nice name….Goldberg ?!?!?!?!?!?!

    • goyim

      the islam is the last religion on earth…
      the prophet is the last prophet on earth….but don't worry , the prophet Jesus will return to pronounce the really religion and to bring order, (and not by bringing chaos first like influential men do now)

      muslims believe in every prophet from the first prophet Adam untill the last prophet Muhammed (s.a.s.) and respect each of them the same
      the Islam is the fastest rising religion in the world….
      the Holy Koran is the word of the one and only God (translation: Allah)…and like he said…I will protect the Holy Koran and every and each word is says untill the end of the days…….and so he doesss…..no one could change a single word of it!!!! they only give other explanations…but that is their problemmm

  • jacob

    II adhere to what YOSHIRO SAGAMORI, who used to write very precise and objectively in the JERUSALEM POST, once stated :

    "EVERY SINGLE PRACTICING MUYSLIM IS A TERRORIST…
    IT IS BEING HAMMERED INTO HIS HEAD FROM CREDDLE TO GRAVE AND IT IS WHAT HIS RELIGION EXPECTS FROM HIM "

    And I dare everyobody to prove her wrong

    • Goyim

      your kind is above all other humans….isn't it??

      dream on…..untill you will wake up to never sleep again!

  • jacob

    In very few words, the West , prisoner of its Stockholm syndrome, is playing possum and ostrich…

    Now please tell me what is to be expected from this cocktail ??

  • Jane Baer

    Perhaps the problem can be addressed through Islam's abuse of women. Because when its women are free, its men will be also. I don't know if Sarah Palin (or Carly Fiorna, Meg Whitman, MIchelle Bachmann, Ann Coulter, or Michele Malkin) could become President of the US, but if a traditional conservative woman could lead this nation, women everywhere would be upllifted. Most women in families are basically conservative and seek to protect other women. With the uplifting of US conservative women, Islamic sexism will have a worthy opponent!

    • Nina

      This is so naive. Evidently you have no idea of life in the Middle East to have such fanthasies. Much would they care. Do you think the women can even tell the difference between a conservative American woman and a liberal? Your idea is preposterous.

    • xman

      Nina is right. Muslim women don't differentiate between Western conservative and liberal women. For Muslim women, Islam is the only thing that matters, and if they were offered freedom, they'd only reject it in favour of more Islam, and like the men, they divide the world into believer and unbeliever.

  • Everdine

    I am Dutch and I am writing from Holland. It is frightening that the leftist inteliigentsia does not want to know the evil of islam. Even when facts are staring them in the face, they still maintain that islam that islam is peaceful

    They deny it is an ideology with a little religion thrown in and that it is expansionist and out for wordl hegemony.

    they deny the cruelties and atrocities commited in name of islam and the press and other media are silent about it.

    Most of the media in Holland are NOT objective, they are the mouthpiece of the left, who are the most virulent defenders of pieceful ilsm. The public channels on TV is even worse.It is left party state propagande.
    Freedom of speech is nearly dead.

    I can go on and on and still not be finished.

    The most friightening thing is happening now.. Geert Wilders with his PVV (Freedom Party) has been the biggest winner of the elections held on 9/6.

    He is left out of a coalition to form a new government by manipulation of and by the left. If that is not serious enough, the Monarch, who is head of State is playing a dirty part as well.

    The constitution stipuylates that the monarch is above the parties and has no political [power. This queen is clearly in favour of the left and she has given the task of helping to form a new government to one of her close allies and confidents.

    It is gettingt nastier. this confident, Tjeenk Willink (a prominent of the CDA – Christian democratic Appeal) has given the advice to the party leaders who are having talks about the formation of a new government: not to coutersign any new law that mght be found contrary to Dutch international status. Which is a very serious breach of the constition and could even be taken to the European Courts.

    Another strange thing in a democracy is the total silence around the coalition talks. We, the people, the voter is not allowed to hear of learn anything of what is discussed.

    The Queen and the CDA are amongst the mosdt striden opponents of Geert Wilders.

    • cochavi1

      The European 'elites' have adopted and enacted a policy of integration into Islam; or, Europe as part of the Islamic sphere, basically. Like a voluntary adoption of dhimmi status with perquisites – for those in the upper strata.

      I too fear like the earlier poster that Wilders may be murdered.

      • Everdine

        Yes, so do I. Especially with the murky doings of the queen and het lackeys.
        Pim fortuin was murdered, Theo van Gogh was slaughtered.

        the European leftis semi religious elites are all traitors.

        • cochavi1

          I hope he has the best bodyguards, and is trained in self-defense. The EU is a travesty in its present form, and nearly all individual members fail to stand up for their own cultures.

    • NObama is GOODbama

      Geert Wilders for prime minister
      Ayan Hirsu Ali for Queen of the Netherlands

    • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

      Thank you, Everdine, for your report. It looks grotesque and near impossible to watch how European monarchs (in Britain, in the Netherlands) actually betrayed their own Faith and Countries! (They supposed to be protectors of Christian faith). The people must rise!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ebonystone ebonystone

      Beatrix' grandmother, Queen Wilhelmina, must be turning in her grave, at her behavior. Dutch queens have a tradition of abdicating in favor of their successor, so maybe it's time for Beatrix to step down in favor of Prince Willem. Are his views on Wilders known?
      Is the Queen's birthday coming up anytime soon? Maybe instead of singing the traditional "Happy Birthday" the crowd could boo her, or perhaps just stand in silence.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadConserv CanadConserv

      That Wilders was charged with inciting hatred (or whatever it was), indicates serious proof of Dutch elites running wild over democracy and rights, like that of free speech.

      So I shouldn't be surprised by what you're telling us about efforts to keep Wilders out of a governing coalition.

      Maybe, though, these efforts will make the people all the angrier at the elites and all the more supportive of Wilders.

    • John Mark

      Everdine, there is an impressive hypothesis in the main article above that says that people, including those on the left, are too terrified to accept that Wilders is right, and so they oppose him.

      I find this calms my indignation at what appears to be their blindness towards Islam. For me to feel calmer is good, very good, especially for my blood pressure, but it also causes me not to be dismissive or, possibly, rude about these people.

      Why you and I and others on this site can accept the horrendous warnings from Wilders without being so terrified that we reject him and what he is saying, I don't know. Why do we agree with Wilders? After all, it is a most dreadful thing ahead that we are accepting as likely to occur.

      Are we a bit psychopathic such that we almost delight in the warnings by Wilders about the incandescent danger of Islam, whilst the Wilders-deniers are the real peace-loving people, whose peacefulness has been hijacked, unknown to them, by Islamicists and Islamic hegemony?

  • Jane Baer

    In the early Middle Ages in the Old World there were 2 battling forces (the combinations of which have threads to the nodern world) Those forces were Islam to the South and a little known (except in people's spirits) belief system in the North (some say escaping the Southern totalitarians) In the North the people loved gullgubber–the remnants we still have in tiny golden figuative artifacts of a man/woman couple of equal size and equal but different style facing one another with great admiration. This is also reflected in the male/female twin duel god myths…the hundreds of different gullgubber found across hundreds of miles are each a proper and dignified icon of gender equality (different but equal) unparelleled in art history. The exact opposite of Islam!! The Holy Roman Empire was a combination of these 2 opposite elements, but some Northerners couldn't stand the sexism and fought it for hundreds of years (Vikings) and some even escaped having never converted to Christianity (which at that time burned women) to what Vikings called the New World and we now call America.

    • tarleton

      I've had to read this psychobabble 3 times to grasp the vacuousness of it all…..female psychobabble , to be exact……unbelievable !

    • Beth

      Jane Baer …"some even escaped having never converted to Christianity (which at that time burned women)"

      Jane Baer, – find the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) – (and then present them if you are telling the truth) – that teach humans to carry out such vicious acts.

      Then (and only then) will you be able to blame Christianity for violent acts. (Good Luck with finding those Scriptures – there aren't any….not even one).

      We reap what we sow Jane. Teach the young to be violent (Koran) and violence is what we'll have. Teach the young to "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and a more peaceful society will arise.

  • WilliamJamesWard

    I see to much here absolving Obama as ignorant and incompetent rather than
    complicit with Jihadist Islam. He may be fooling the majority but he will always
    be bowing down before the Saudi King and Islam. We saw the twin towers taken
    down and see how it has weakened us, do we not see this conduct in the Gulf.
    How in the name of sanity is there no investigation as to the definitive cause of
    the explosion and the consequences. Obama is doing everything possible to
    weaken America, now and oil production stoppage, and we blame it on a desire
    to build green fuels. I am not overly suspicious, I just expect answers to questions
    that are not being looked at and kept from America, all that is going on is still
    happening if exposed or not. We sadly underestimate our opponents and
    our response to the threats and actions are and overwhelming failure. Slowly
    we are destroyed by our new government, Islam is ready with its sharp swords.
    …………………………………..

    • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

      All the above being correct Re. the impostor and enemy agent Obama, the attitude to Islam (and the Saudis) was the same during Bush and previous administrations, alas. This sickness is much deeper and wider…

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/WilliamJWard WilliamJamesWard

        Isn't it like we are just and audience in a theater with all of the players wooden
        puppets on a string pulled by evil maniacs backstage, I just do not remember
        buying a ticket for this show. Luckily there are records of how mankind has
        dealt with evil and we may have the capacity of inventing a few new ideas. I
        think the answers to our myriad problems will be found in the American military.
        Regards…………………..William

  • WilliamJamesWard

    What can the world expect when we are more than just sidelined with internal
    problems of supply and demand, the ruinous conduct of the MSM, the inaction of
    those who are responsible to uphold and protect our Constitution. Bribery, large
    sums of money given to all who have been helping to destroy our Nation, our
    culture and moral convictions. Promises of places in the "New Order" when we
    are brought down explains much of the treason we live with today. Americans for
    the most part think they do not live close enough to the problems and will carry
    that thought right up to the point of when they are steam cleaning their prayer rugs,
    beating their wives and honor killing their children. Let the Marine Corps. take over
    the government and all associated public activities for a few years of boot camp
    in Americanization. World War is now, you snooze, you lose……..November……..
    William

    • http://imataxpayertoo.wordpress.com kathy

      Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.—-John Adams

      Now we see why he said this.

  • waterwillows

    It is time we quit white washing our western leaders and call a spade a spade. They are fully, completely aware of just what Islam stands for. They are not kept in ignorance of this vile militant force, but are fully informed. So Why?

    Like Churchill said: "When given a choice between dishonor and war; they chose dishonor and got war anyway".

    History will condemn their leadership of today. They will be remembered as pond scum.

  • Mel

    We need a Churchill today!!!!

    From "Islam is a religion of peace" George W. Bush, to "America is one of the largest Islamic nations" B. Hussein Obama, to the lapdog Sergeant Schultz "I see notting; I hear notting" mainstream media, America's elite are already on the side of encouraging as much Islamic expansion into the US as possible. Next will come the hate laws which will provide ruinous legal costs for speaking the truth against Islam (as has already happened here in Canada).

    Americans needs to wake up before its too late. Learn the truth about Islam, and warn everyone as fast as you can!

    • NObama is GOODbama

      Unfortuantely even if Churchill were alive and in top form, he would be shunned as an old fool, out of touch, behind the times and a war mongerer still wearing his WW1 uniform.
      Churchill was shunned by his colleagues in the 1930's when he tried to warn about the emminent dangers of the rsising nazi regime. Hconsidered this his greatest failure.
      When he was appointed prime minister by King George on May 10, 1940, he did not consider this a success, rather a failure. He was 65 and did not need the job. Meanwhile, Chamberlane scurried back home for the rest of the war. It was all a bit to much for him.

      • xman

        Churchill would probably have been Prime Minister anyway before 1940 was out – unless we'd lost the war beforehand. Chamberlain died in November 1940, only six months after Churchill became Prime Minister.

    • Goyim

      yeh right …the muslims are so bad ….they own the oil compagnies (f**king the nature), they own the banks, they rule the wall street, they are always whispiring in the ear of the presidents, giving advise …each president will come and go, but the advisors of the president and the white house will always stay there…find out yourself who they are and their background

      the americans are in irak and afghanistan to bring peace (with weapons), then they will leave….yeah right!! (maybe when the oil they steel run out)

      the muslims are responsible of the economic depression……DREAM ONN AND KEEP GROWING UP WITH YOUR TELEVISION

  • Tim

    Avowedly secular countries have the best defense systems for Islamic like infections. The problem is your secular muscles have become weak and flabby after years of cohabitation with Catholicism and Evangelicalism

    • xman

      One of the best defences is to rid ourselves of political correctness and multiculturalist nonsense.

  • Chezwick

    I once had an extended discussion with a liberal, Jewish librarian who was defending multiculturalism and who insisted that people of different creeds and beliefs can and must sit down and discuss their differences and arrive at an understanding…because if not, "we're all screwed." My riposte was for her to examine the POSSIBILITY that some belief systems are irreconcilable (e.g., Islam and freedom). What was her plan B, I asked.

    She didn't have one. Just as was hammered home in this symposium, the implications are too terrifying and the necessary sacrifices too demanding for such a sea-change in a comfort-seeking world-view. In other words, like so many others, she'd prefer the big lie than upsetting the apple cart.

    • http://imataxpayertoo.wordpress.com kathy

      The U.S. Constitution and Islam are totally incompatible….all immigrants in the past have been asked to submit to our laws…but since even our law-makers have become law-less, I suppose that will be too much to ask of SOME immigrants. Besides we need more affirmative action groups in this country to keep a certain party in power.

  • peter

    While it may be true that Obama was not responsible for the Gulf explosion, from what I have read he may be responsible for the catastrophic results.
    http://www.financialpost.com/Avertible+catastroph

    • richard

      my initial and following thought was that he was in fact involved. and if not he used the tragedy, and allowed it to continue unabated for his own political gain. this cannot be denied.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/bill49 bill49

    Hitler could not be defeated by German dissidents, idealists or democrats. He could only be defeated by a Churchill and a British people who stood firmly behind Churchill against Germany. It is true that there are many moderate Muslims but it was also true that there were many moderate Germans who did not like Hitler or the Nazis. Hitler could not be defeated by believing in the goodness of the many moderate Germans because the moderate Germans were powerless and irrelevant. It was necessary to stand and fight with Churchill against Germany. It was only after total war against Germany had succeeded that it was possible to rescue the moderate Germans from Hitler and start again.
    Hitler did not become powerful by being nice, and Islam did not become a "great world religion" by Baptist evangelism. Islam conquered the Middle East and North Africa by a couple of hundred years of ruthless military conquest and coerced conversion of conquered peoples. Why do Egyptians speak Arabic today? An Egyptian Christian told me. If Egyptians spoke their national language, the Arab conquerors cut their tongues out.

    • Ahmed

      Your words, sir indicates you do not know anything about Islam if you want to know Islam is right, you should ask Muslims themselves
      Or that the privilege to come to a Muslim country and see with your own eyes
      Incidentally, Im EGYPTIAN

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/bill49 bill49

        Dear Ahmed. Thank you for your courteous reply. I regularly talk to Muslims and they tell me about their religion. In fact I listen to them more than I tell them about my Christian belief. I also talk to ex-Muslims and non Muslims from Muslim countries and I try to learn as much as I can. I am told by ex-Muslims that most Muslim people are decent human beings who want to be good and I believe them. However, I also know that many Muslims from Middle Eastern Countries are refugees in my country, Australia. The majority are refugees from Islamic civil war..When planes piloted by Muslim Jihadists destroyed the World Trade Centre, some of the Muslims in our Australian schools greeted the news with spontaneous cheers. This is not the religion of peace but the passion for world conquest.

        • Everdine

          In Holland mulims cheered and hootede their carhorns, They went to the streets to show their joy and not just one or two ot just in one city
          The Qu'ran is far from peaceful, it is violent and orders muslims to 'kill unbelievers, friendship or marriage between a christian and muslim is forbidden and the peace islam talks about is when THE WHOLE WORLD is converted to islam.
          Ever heard of taqiyye? the deceitof non-muslims?

      • xman

        After 1,400 years of mass slaughter of infidels because they didn't want to live under Islamic barbarianism, the conquests of infidel lands over a 1,100 years period, 16,000 terrorist atrocities since 9/11 and seeing Muslims celebrate that atrocity, Bali, Beslan, 7/7, Madrid, Mumbai etc, the daily calls for our murders emanating from the mosques and terrorist atrocities against Israel over the last 62 years, stonings, beatings, beheadings and limb amputations, our cat couldn't fail to get a grasp of Islam, savage.

        • Lies

          The scorpions/moslims of serb bosnian in the east beheaded a lot of man. Nobody writes about it, but people know and talked also with me. And now they are complaining about srebenica where these scorpion men were killed and that the dutch is guilty of murdered them. Eventhough the muslims/scorpions started the killings. They wanted a muslim state with sarajevo. Yes international press was honest about that. Dutch even had memorials today about srebenica. What the fuck. You think i am stupid. Dutch government that i believe the fairytale you told in 1995. NO i have other resources. We the people all know about the scorpions and beheading and soon coming to europe. I am glad the muslims of srebenica are dead!! kill them all
          i am realy sorry for the serbs blond haired on youtube who got beheaded by the scorpions/muslims. and the world is not talking about you. You have my support.

      • Qatmom

        The bodies keep piling up, not just those murdered on 9/11m but the dead of London, Madrid, Bali, Beslan, and even more bodies of other Muslims who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Episcopalians aren't doing this. Buddhists aren't doing this. Atheists aren't doing this.

        I've changed my view of Islam. I once thought the killers were the aberrations. Now, unless one can successfully ignore the evidence of a body count that keeps rising, it's obvious that the Muslim who doesn't want to do murder or who doesn't support the use of any means to spread Islam is the aberration. I've worked with people from all over the world, and gotten along with them. I cannot get along with someone who wishes me and everyone (every non-Muslim who does not convert) like me dead.

        We're not fooled any longer. We know about taqiyya. We know half of the Muslim world is treated like disposable trash. We also know that when you cannot find a non-Muslim throat to cut, you murder each other; Muslims by far are the largest group whose blood is offered up to please your god of death.

        The world would be safer if all Muslims could be kept in the countries where they presently dominate, where they could wallow in their backward past, shed each other's blood, and tell each other how superior they are, all walled off from a world that has better things to do than indulge in murderous fantasies.

    • Beth

      Bill 49…."Hitler could not be defeated by believing in the goodness of the many moderate Germans"

      EXCELLENT analogy Bill.

      And….the so-called 'moderate' Muslims STILL bring their Koran with them. The real culprit of the violence being carried out in Islam – is their Koran.

      Taught in the Koran:
      Beheadings (047.004) – Racism (005.041) – Gang Rape (033.052) – Crucifixions (005.033) – Genocide (033.061) – Treason – (008.067) (the Koran is online for all to see for themselves)

      Do 'moderate' Muslims deny sharing their Koran with the young who are curious?

      While pondering that thought – remember – We reap what we sow

    • goyim

      did you really do your research yourselff???

      yeh right….america is now in irak and afghanistan to bring peace …..with all their weapons….and then they will leave (when the oil they steal finally runs out)

      you forgot the indians and the genocide…..
      the war against russia
      the war against japan

      first look in the mirror…..then do your research well…and speak then

  • al Kidya

    "How do you get a reformation of that religion when its holy book, from which those dictums come, is reputed to be dictated verbatim by God and is therefore immutable?"

    You convince them all that the supposed "religion" is really a cult that was devised based on a Cult of the Moon that existed 400 years prior to Islam.
    Mohammad desecrated the 360 pagan gods and goddesses in the Kaaba and pronounced the head Allah, the male god as the montheistic deity. Then he plagiarized the Torah and the New Testament of Christ and combined them with the Moon cult to create a cult of his own for his evil, narcissistic pleasures.

  • Liberty Clinger

    "Those who continue day after day to cling to their delusions regarding the nature of the threat do so by persisting, day after day – out of a desperate desire to believe reality to be otherwise…"

    In other words there are those who continue day after day to cling to both the truth and the lie – out of a desperate desire to believe the lie instead of the truth – those who continue day after day to exercise the insanity of Orwellian Doublethink.

    “Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously (the truth and the lie), and accepting both of them… with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth…" George Orwell – 1984

  • Liberty Clinger

    " What are the consequences we face with this mass psychosis and denial?"

    Those who have the best knowledge of what is happening are also those who are furthest from seeing the world as it is; in general the greater the understanding the greater the delusion; the more intelligent the less sane… You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right. You also believe that the nature of reality is self-evident… I tell you Winston that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind and nowhere else; not in the individual mind, which can make mistakes and in any case soon perishes; only in the mind of the Party, which is collective and immortal. Whatever the Party holds to be truth is truth… If human equality is to be forever averted; if the "high," as we have called them, are to keep their places permanently; then the prevailing mental condition must be controlled insanity (Doublethink).” George Orwell – 1984

  • Liberty Clinger

    " What are the consequences we face with this mass psychosis and denial?"

    To answer the above question, we are going to have to exercise the sanity of common sense and reject the controlled insanity of Orwellian Doublethink. Common sense means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously (the truth and the lie), and accepting only the truth… with the truth always one leap ahead of the lie.

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/cameored cameored

    The liberals and the others that believe Islam is peaceful and do not understand Islam even when Islam is explained to them are not viewing the world realistically.

    Liberals, in particular, are susceptible to this. Many follow the philosophy (variants of Shaw and Robert Kennedy): "I dream things that never were and say 'why not?'"

    These folks are simply dreaming — and acting on what they WANT to be true, not on what IS true. They WANT Islam to be peaceful and non-statist, just like the other religions they know. Therefore, they pretend it is.

    I fear for Western civilization.

    • NObama is GOODbama

      The should consider succession from the surrealists.
      We keep the military, the real workers and producers and they can have all the rest.

      • Will Doohan

        And if anyone gets sick, or hurt in an accident, or is mentally ill or to old to work anymore and not a 'producer' ….what then? Do we kill them? Send them to the 'other side'? What about someone related to you? Would you instantly reject them because they could no longer 'produce'? What about you own mother or father? Brother or Sister? Your Wife or Husband?

        A completely compassionless society is unrealistic because most humans do care about each other, and some are even magnanimous enough to extend that compassion to people beyond their own family. That you are incapable of that says more about you than the viability capitalism or socialism though.

        (from a Recovering Objectivist)

    • Rick

      cameored ,
      I very much agree with your comments. Watch out for the lib's because one thing they love to do is use shaming principles and try to make you question your solid stance. They may think they have good intentions but their good intentions are going to get a lot more Americans killed. Theirs is a feel good insanity. God bless you dearly. :)

  • Karl

    American can be saved by a new version of "shock and awe." We must target and embarrass our blacks who stupidly gravitate to the religion of their former captors. The black community in our country can be put on the dock and put on the defensive. They have no way to defend themselves from attack of historical retardation.

    They have too much "pride" to sit by and not defend themselves to accusations, with proof, of their lobotomized adaptation of Islam. On what basis can any African-American deny what Islam has done to them? Put the spotlight on Louis Fahrahkan, the black Muslim that Obama's church declared as their hero, while he was there! Our blacks can become America's footsoldiers.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJhSejBDTPI

  • Rick

    Thank you Geert Wilders, Roger Simon, Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, Kevin Levin, David Horowitz and the many others for speaking the truth. You are THE FREEDOM FIGHTERS! Thank you, thank you thank you!

  • John Mark

    This discussion has made me sympathetic to those people who, being terrified that Wilders may be right, hate him.

    What to do? Just hang on in, Geert and all others! Just wait! The increasing difference between Muslim and non-Muslim populations in the democracies will wake people up sooner or later.

    Yet, even before that happens, there will be a war started in the Middle East, in my opinion. It is unavoidable because of the specific Islamic beliefs of world domination, which beliefs the Nazis had also, rushing the nations of the world into war.

    With both the ongoing demographic changes and war perceived, rightly, to be caused by Iran's intransigence, the people, who now hate Wilders, will plead for him to lead other leaders, just as they did to Churchill in 1939/40.

    So, those of us, who support Wilders, only have to hang on in there. Time is on our side!

    • Everdine

      Time is not really on our side, in Holland immigration goes on in vast numbers. In cities like Amsterdam the majority of schoolchildren is muslim, the birthrate amongst mulims is very, very high and the stablisblishment, les by the queen, is in favor of islam

      • John Mark

        Everdine, time is on your side, paradoxically! Look how time has worked on you in that, a short time back, you wouldn't have been anxious about the situation in Holland as you are now.

        Yet, there are still many non-Muslim Dutch people, who voted Labour or CDA and not for Wilders, because, when they look at the facts you have pointed out in your reply to me, they don't get anxious, panicky, as you do.

        But, since time increases the number of immigrants in the cities and, together with the far greater birth rate of Muslims compared to non-Muslims, the Muslim population shows its exponential growth, more and more people in Holland will wake up. They will see the rise in the Muslim population before long, or many, many more will, and then they will stop voting for Job Cohen or for the CDA, and vote for the VVD or PVD.

        Truly, time is on your side in the sense that you and Geert and others do not have to DO anything except keep on the course you are already on. Don't lose heart since the tidal wave you see now, will be seen by more and more of Holland's Judaeo-Christian voters as….time goes by.

        • xman

          Time might not be on their side. In 1960, there were around 15,000 Muslims in Holland, by 1970 around 100,000 and now it is well over 1 million – a massive increase over the past 50 years. At that rate, by 2060 you might be looking at 5 million or more Muslims living there. In France, Muslims make up around 9 or 10% of the population but are apparently giving birth to 30% of the newborns. Heaven forbiod what Europe will look like should I live to see my 90th or 100th birthday.

          • frabul slomn

            No its more than thirty per cent now in France – its over 50 per cent as of the last few months. The tipping point has been reached – over 50% of children now being born have immigrant parents. This is an estimate as the French government does not allow population figures to be broken down by race or nationality, however this estimate is fairly reliable. We in the West dont have much time left to fight this war.

          • John Mark

            Your figures of more than 50% of babies born in France being of Muslim parents is shocking! Truly, Gaddafi is right when he says that Islam will be conquering Europe by peaceful methods.

            How does Europe get these Muslim figures and future voters down? War and/or expulsion! Neither are politically correct, and there are politicians who are angry with Wilders because they cannot face these two solutions.

            I think that Iran does, just does, want war with Israel. I see no reason why nuclear weapons won't be used by either side. I see no reason why the US won't be involved and use its bunker busting bombs too. I see no reason why this will not depopulate worldwide Islam including Europe, but it will take many non-Muslims away to the grave as well.

          • xman

            I see reasons why the US won't use its bunker-busting bombs against Iran – cowardice and a broken moral compass. They're more likely to use bunker busters against Israel instead – especially under THIS administration.

          • John Mark

            Xman, thank you for the demographic figures! They illustrate the invasion of Christianised Europe very well.

            What I meant was that time is on Wilders' side to get into government and, hopefully, become prime minister. It is precisely the figures of massive Muslim population expansion, which will persuade the non-Muslim Dutch voter to vote PVV. Only Wilders or someone like him can deal with the exponential nature of Muslim population growth.

            Surely, the reason why the PVV increased its number of seats so much is because the Muslim population is so big now compared to when the PVV had just 9 seats or when it started.

            Time is on Wilders's side, but there is a massive problem ahead of expelling Muslims from Europe, so that their reproductive rate doesn't destroy the Europe of history.

    • Dan0

      Just hang on in! until Muslims out number us and use our democratic process (the vote) to destroy Democracy. Sage advise! If the 14th amendment is not modified and Islam outlawed, the US is lost.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/loseyateefa loseyateefa

    I put big magnetic signs on my car opposing Islam and Sharia, and the website of jihadwatch.com and citizenwarrior.com. i get some stares, but hopefully they'll go home and begin learning……

    Islam is from the pit of hell. Allah is satan.
    Here is a free 295 page pdf downloadable book by Sujit Das:
    Unmasking Muhammed: The Malignant Narcissist and his Grand Delusion Allah https://acrobat.com/#d=WsvZBY1sY0pLKbrDQmGZyA
    Every muslim should be forced to read it to give them the sense to leave Islam, and every non-muslim needs to read it to defend against those who don't.
    The author uses extensive understanding of psychiatry, history, the Qu'ran and the life of Muhammed. It is the most exhaustive source I've seen. He doesn't hold the copyright and wants this disseminated as widely as possible. Please repost this source as often as applicable.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/WilliamJWard WilliamJamesWard

      Thanks for the information……………………William

    • Everdine

      Thank you for the link. I will make sure it finds its way to Dutch websites

  • Ray

    The more American right-left politics is intertwined with informing the people about the true nature of Islam the longer it will take for the message to spread beyond this sub-segment of the population. To be believable and credible to a greater segment of the population criticism of Islam needs to be separate from right wing American politics, because when people disagree with your political position they extend that what you say about Islam is equally questionable. They are wrong about these positions so they very well could be seriously wrong about the things they say about Islam. People will differ in politics and that is a part of life. If your primary goal is to defeat Islam because it is an ideology like communism and nazism and not a religion like the others, you need to set aside American politics so that politics does not become a barrier in getting your message out. Spencer's anti-Obama book will just be another barrier to his primary message about Islam. It will play well to a subsection of anti-Obamists but not to all, not to those to the center or to the left. It will be seen as political bias and that will shadow the rest.

    I wish there was a neutral non-political non-partisan site that presented the cold hard clinical unemotional facts about Islam. The more such sites there are the faster the truth will be spread. Wherever people stand in the political spectrum no one wants to be treated unequally like Islam will treat people. The difference is that a good many people do not believe Islam would do that, will you understand it will. The task is providing objective non-partisan, non-bigoted, non-racist cold clinical unemotional facts that can withstand criticism and challenges that prove this beyond a doubt to those unreached right now.

    • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

      "Spencer's anti-Obama book will just be another barrier to his primary message about Islam"

      Obama (an impostor, a Moslem, an enemy agent) is a part of Islam and of the forces appeasing it. Also Bush was an appeaser of Islam, and Clinton. The entire political establishment is a part of this problem and cannot be ignored.

    • Everdine

      The wish for an neutral non-political site or informtiona is understandable. But as islam is mainly a political ideaology with a religious coating that is not possible. Islam and politics cannot be separated.

      Obama's ideas in Kenian politics: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/k

  • Bushmaster

    A deranged cult with an evil ethos worse than that of the nazis , for all infidels, the botom line is the same , revert [convert ] or the sword . Every muslim knows this , without exception .The "peacefull islam " so touted by muslims , is that peace which comes only amongst the muslim umma [body of believers ] after all infidels have been either made muslim or killed . Google "Prophet of Doom " and discover how really bad this cult is and how the Q'uran was written and by whom .

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ZionSion Beth

      Bushmaster …."The "peacefull islam " so touted by muslims , is that peace which comes only amongst the muslim umma [body of believers ] after all infidels have been either made muslim or killed "

      I'm glad you brought that up, because….

      Even then, there will STILL be bloodshed. For proof, one example (of many) would be shiite vurses sunni

      Can 'a Fountain' produce both sweet water and bitter? (No – the bitter ruins the sweet)

      Neither can their Koran produce Peace.

  • Jacob

    Moderate Muslims can only be referred to as "Make believe Muslims." People who are incapable of excepting 1400 years of brutality and death as expounded by the Prophet Mohammad, sayings later captured as words for the Koran.

    The attacks on Mr. Wilder comes from the real Islamist, sympathizers and haters of civilization. There are many reasons for the hatred being spewed forth by this group and it would be impossible to detail the philological problems of each, but the socialist and the warped minded haters have joined forces with the Islamist to bring down this country.

    However, it's encouraging to see information by such well know people being put forth in the FrontPage Magazine. Today's information stream is small, but larger than yesterday and hopefully it will continue to grow tomorrow, with there information being passed on.

  • HARRY-O

    Islam is an evil murder cult much like the Thugg-ee of India was.
    It's founder & "prophet" was a mass murderer, slaver, rapist, pedophile, extortionist, thief & liar. All who worship & follow this monster are criminals.
    Geert Wilders is 100% correct about Islam.
    Sooner or later the libf@gs are going to have to pull their heads out of the sand (or wherever else their heads are) and face the reality of Islam. Hopefully this will happen before the jihadists behead them.

  • badaboo

    There is no "misinterpretation "of the Koran , muslims are doing exactly what is prescribed in their holy book . Anyone who has read it knows this . And as if that alone wasn't bad enough , there is the mechanism of " ABBROGATION " which allows new rulings by clerics , in order to "catch up with the times . So far NOTHING in the way of a change from the original dogma , of world domination of islam and the elimination of all other religions , and eventually all non-muslims . THAT is what is known as The Goal of the Prophet , which every muslim must struggle [jihad ] for . When people in the west finally realize , that what is ultimately in store for them is – revert [convert ] or be killed , then , and only then , will they be prepared to meet this challenge to their very existence .

  • Badaboo

    Indeed Harry -O , but it is not JUST the left , for there are those on the right , who fear for their political careers by being branded "islam-o-phobes " and thus lose those precious votes .For they will seperate , just as Bush did , the "terrorists " from the the overall practicing body of islam . THERE IS NO SEPERATION .
    I have yet to see one politician in the US , make the claims that Wilders has . It is the entire cult , that is and WILL be our mortal enemy .
    The Thuggees of India operated for almost 700 years , and were left to their own devices as log as the maharaja's kingdoms were left alone , The British put up with them as long as their Company trade interests were left alone . ONE MAN -Colonel Sleeman single-handedly brought them down . Oddly , the Thuggees were made up of Brahmans and MUSLIMS . Sleeman documented interviews with captured Thuggs , and the parralells between them and muslims is astonishing . Read the Book …The Stranglers " .

  • John Mark

    I agree with you, Bill, that not all religions are good! My definition of "good" in this context is the Person of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Since he is good, then the religion that descended from him is good, at least in comparison to the religion that Mohammad produced.

    However, there have been so many additions and subtractions from what Jesus and his apostles revealed to us human beings, that there is much in the Christian religion which is not good. It's as if the root of Christianity is good but the trunk becomes less good as you go up the trunk, so that the branches at the top are totally bad.

    Even so, the bad branches of Judaeo-Christianity are destroyable without bloodshed these days, and without the root being lost. The bad branches of Islam, however, are not destroyable without worldwide blooshed. Hopefully, the trunk, including the Koran, will be destroyed when the world war is finished.

  • reflecting 1a

    I sometimes don't understand the constant reiteration of information most of us know. There needs to be more tactics discussed. (1) Each of us should declare ourselves as Islamophobes. My understanding of the word is "fear of Islam". We should all be afraid of Islam as it is the objective of Islam to kill, convert or enslave us. (2)You scholars should put your analysis of Islam to work in stripping off the political ideas in the Koran, hadidth and summa from the religious ones. Bill Warner does this in his Feb. 5, 2007 Frontpage interview. Many of the political ideas are seditious and can be construed as advocating the overthrow of the U.S, government and its constitution. They can then be prosecuted under the Mcarran act from the Cold War some of which is still on the books. . Simple!__ __.

    • Liberty Clinger

      Islamophobia means irrational fear of Islam since the word "phobia" means irrational fear. Unfortunately Islam is not just a religion; it is a totalitarian political and legal system. We should rightly fear totalitarianism; that is rational fear not phobia. Islam is also a coercive, violent, assassinating, murdering, mass-murdering system of military jihad. We should rightly fear Islamic jihad; that is rational fear, not phobia.

      I do not fear or have a phobia about any religion which is not subversive of my (and my nation's) God-given unalienable rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness; but sadly, Islam is such a threat.

  • Katharina(ex NAza)

    Thank you for this brilliant article, for bravely speaking out as ever against Barack Hussein Obama and Islam. My comments criticizing Obama and his very abusive supporters in NY Daily were censored, as in the Left Guardian and Independent! This is the kind of war that the left/Islamists are promoting and then, they have the nerve to accuse whoever is not on their side, as anti-democracy, racist and so on? The Left are actually fascists. Now, Obama is stealthily promoting further conquest of the West/Judeo-Christendom, such as when he's demanding that Turkey be accepted into the EU (see At – http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?i…! This is so dangerous and why is he pushing this now, in a hurry as everything else, such as trying to disarm Israel?

    Indeed, Barack Hussein Obama is the Islamist-Stalinist trojan horse, who kept on dividing and destroying the Western world that include Israel!

    • http://imataxpayertoo.wordpress.com kathy

      I have read that Obama gave all kinds of signs (through the symbolism he used in his campaign and inauguration) to the Muslim world that he was the one who was here for them….looks like its all proving to be true and real because that's exactly what he is doing. No one wants to believe it but the evidence is being laid out openly before our eyes. There's no denying it anymore. Pushing Turkey, a once secular nation but now a Muslim one, into the EU is just one more piece of evidence.

  • Katharina(ex NAza)

    This Islamic conquest into the West, has got to be stopped by Wilders and brave activists like in this interview here – Barack Hussein Obama even have the nerve to blame Europe, for not letting Turkey into the EU, and the Jews, for being suspicious of his 'Hussein' name – Obama/Islamists/the Left never blamed themselves, that's for sure!:

    At – http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?i
    'EU pushed Turkey to look elsewhere'

    By JPOST.COM STAFF
    07/08/2010 15:03
    In interview, Obama encourages Europe to ally with Turkey

  • char

    i'd like to hear more about the psychological implications of mass denial & delusion – i agree its a psycho-war – cult behavior, denial, delusion, guilt, fear, bullying, brainwashing, projection, cognative dissonance, narcissism – those in power seem like total crazies – the rest of us like zombies. Self-hatred, identification w/ abusers, blame, O & his pathological lies, revenge, rationalisation of evil & passive aggression, martyrdom, self-aggrandisement & lack of empathy (our leader is a basket case) – the ellte's blatant hypocrisy, guilt, & insatiability – I know a famous SF 60's radical who's hatred of his own father motiviated his anti-everything-politics, that was basically his motivation, it's that simple! Paternal hatred & revenge, like Bill Ayres, poor little rich kid. Islam? Envy, failure, sexual dysfunction, indoctrination – a world gone nuts.

  • Santiago Macquarrie

    The "lesser breeds" Kipling alluded to were the Germans.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/bill49 bill49

      Thank you Santiago. I have been familiar with Kipling's RECESSIONAL since childhood but I have never studied it. I Googled it just now and it seems you are right. I will have to edit out that sentence because I do not wish to distort Kipling's intended meaning.

      • John Mark

        Was all your initial post deleted just because you wanted to edit out one particular sentence? Pity!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/bill49 bill49

          I posted it again further down the page. Have a look,. Thank you for your appreciation.

  • patsjc

    Excellent article! Most Americans, if they have even heard of Wilders, blame him as the messenger of bad news. The truth is that it is time we woke up – yes both the US and Europe. If we don't wake up and see that Islam is really a global political movement and not really a religion at all we are all doomed.

    "foraff.org"

  • dhimminology

    The article and many comments seem to potray Islam as a dangerous ideology only to the West. No, Islam is a danger to the world and all non-Muslims be you politically left, right, centre or no where, a Christian, Catholic, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, secularist, a conservative or liberal, a multiculturalist or xenophobe – whatever you stand for but if you are NOT a believer of Islam – you are an enemy of Islam and Muslims have the right to invade your country, conquer you, steal your land and property, enslave your children, kill your men and rape your women till the whole world is under the control of Islam. That's the whole aim of the religion of Islam.

    • Liberty Clinger

      Islam is the Borg where they tell us that "resistance is futile." Well, I say resist, resist, resist, resist, resist, resist.

      "Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never, — in nothing great or small, large or petty — never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy." Winston Churchill

      “I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” Thomas Jefferson

  • dhimminology

    I agree with reflecting 1a – tactics to overcome this nefarious doctrine should be thought of. Open war is probably not the best option at the moment. I have some thoughts but these should be kept secret lest Muslims see them! We have to defeat them by psychological warfare, debunking Islam by exposing it for it is as well as COVERTLY. However, until our world leaders – Western AND non-Western, stop their political-correctness and agree and come up with policies to counter Islam, the whole world is under threat from the true Neo-Nazism – Islam. Wake up America – your enemy is not Russia or even China. It's Islam.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/bill49 bill49

    Some time in the dimly remembered history of our Western civilization, our white European ancestors arrogantly imagined they were genetically, intellectually and culturally superior to all other races and peoples. We forgot what Jesus taught about humility and we decided the God of the Bible had chosen us to be the master race to dominate the world.
    Then some European intellectuals started to question these assumptions. Then we were told that we must not consider black people to be inferior. No problems there. Books began to appear about “the Great World Religions.” Then we were told all cultures are of equal value. So now we have gone from one extreme to another. We used to believe it was the duty of educated white Christian people to go out and conquer the lesser breeds, civilize them by making them like ourselves.
    Now we are told all of the so called “Great World Religions” are good and must not be criticised, except strangely enough, Christianity and the Jews are now considered fair game for everyone to persecute and blame for everything.
    We have gone from one arrogant and irrational belief system to an opposite form of arrogant delusion. If all cultures and belief systems are equal, then Nazi Germany was no better or worse than the democratic countries who opposed Hitler. Post War democratic Japan is no better than the Imperial Japan which set out to conquer Asia and America. South Korea is no better or worse than North Korea.
    So it is clearly obvious that not all cultures and belief systems are equal. It is also clear that some cultures and belief systems are a threat to ordinary decent human societies, as Hitler’s Germany was and as North Korea is today. It was the religion of Mohammed that motivated the Arabs to conquer the Middle East and North Africa in a particularly ruthless manner. Why should we assume that all religions are good?
    Jesus said this about assessing religious leaders.

    "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. Matthew 7:15-17 (NIV)

  • badaboo

    Obsess yourselves with Obama if you wish , he's no better or worse than Bush ,when it comes to facing the truth about islam . Neither Bush nor Obama can affect one way or another what is going on with islam . With both we are still dependant on Saudi Oil , one bows down ,the other holds hand with the Saudi Prince . With both we give treasure to Palestinians , and Pakistanis ,who have double-crossed both Bush and Obama with both we depend on Turkey for our military bases . With both we have given visas to terrorists .
    Islam cares not about our politics , nor does it favor left or right .The Left is guilty for minimizing the threat , while the right is guilty of assuming ANY muslim country to be an ally or partner in any way . Both sides are blind for different reasons . Neither fully recognizes the truth .

    • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

      Indeed, it was Bush who rushed to declare that "Islam is a religion of peace", who missed the unique window of opportunity to nuke Mecca and Medina on 9/12/2001 – the only adequate response proper for a super power attacked that way.

      That said, Bush was not a Moslem, an imposter and an enemy agent. However both are puppets playing the one-world game… Both parties merged into one implementing the one world game.

      • xman

        Bush's 'crime', in common with Western leaders over the last 50 or 60 years, was in knowing absolutely nothing about Islam and the teachings of that cult. He prattled on about Islam being 'a religion of peace' despite the worst terrorist attack on American soil in its history and knowing full well that the perpetrators were Muslims, when a good history book (not the revisionist nonsense that appears today) would have told him otherwise, as would a commonsense approach, especially after the first attempt to bring down the WTC back in 1993.

  • Dr.Who

    Stockholm Syndrome.

  • HostileLogic

    The radical left is entrenched in the school bureaucracy where we Americans send our children and they have been there for a very long time.

    Does anyone have any idea why so many people in this nation now thump the bible of Marx & Engels instead of the Bible of God? Does anyone wonder why there are so many people who now are doing everything in their power to completely eviscerate everything that the Founding Fathers gave to us all?

    Stop thinking that showing up at the ballot box is the end solution. It is not. The radical left is a deadly malignant cancer in the schools of this nation and this is the exact source of the overwhelming majority of this nation’s woes.

    And don’t buy into that sleight-of-hand that it’s the colleges and universities that we most need to be concerned about. Au contraire, mon ami. It is K-12 that deserves our most aggressive attention. The radical professors in the colleges and universities would be laughed off of the campuses were it not for the fact that the kids that show up have already been K-12 preconditioned, their brains softened like sponges, ready to absorb their radical claptrap.

    I hear so many parents say that the schools they send their children to have good scholastic ratings. First, let me tell you something: most teachers today are the dumbest of the dumb college graduates. Sorry to burst your bubble. If you think I’m kidding, go do just a little bit of research and you will find that overall these teachers have the lowest SAT scores of all college graduates. The fact is that the really high quality teachers are choosing higher paying occupations. Your children are being taught by radical leftists entrenched in the educational bureaucracy via their useful idiots.

    If you think your children have good teachers, perform a very simple little test. Go to these teachers and ask them a very specific question: “What methodology do you use to help my child develop his/her critical thinking skills? Likely, what you will see is what looks like the eyes of a deer frozen in headlights.

    What does this have to do with the problems we are having recognizing the deadly dangers of Islam? Everything! It’s the cause of the inability of so many to be unable to think critically at even the most elementary level about Islam and just about every other ill that this nation suffers.

    Take control over the education of your children. Failing to do so will resolutely condemn this nation to extinction.

    Pugna vel Intereo!

    • John Mark

      What do you mean by "thump" the Bible of God? Do you mean "preach" it, in which case who is listening in this present era? Do you mean "study" it privately or with a few others, in which case the translations are so confusing and contradictory, no one goes away with a clear and comprehensive understanding of the Bible of God?

      Does the Bible of God need "thumping"? It surely needs translating again and again so that those people, whom you say are "thumping" Marxism, may begin to understand what the Bible of God is saying, without having to give up in despair when reading the present awful translations.

      • Beth

        Second Greatest Command (Christianity) – And Last:

        Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

        Beyond that Command, there are no more.

        1Jo 2:27 But the anointing (New Covenant) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and…..

        ye need not that any man teach you {This is one that the so-called 'Christian masters' of this world hate. It is telling us, that we don't need them. It is also the fulfillment of a Prophecy given by Jeremiah. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more….)

        What do think John Mark? Are those words too hard to understand? and do you honestly believe they cause confusion?

        The so-called (and self-professing) 'Christian masters' of this world have taken their seats at the table that calls the Son of God an abomination – Islam.

        So don't count on any of them for any solutions for the spreading of Islam. And if you decide (and you should) to share the truth about them ('Christian masters') with your family, friends and neighbors – be prepared to be opposed.

        • Beth

          This needs to be added:

          Mat 3:11 I [John] indeed baptize you [Jews] with water unto repentance [for breaking the Old Covenant]: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you [the Christians] with the Holy Ghost, and with fire [not water]

          The truth sets us free from the bondage of liars.

          The bondage set forth by the Koran is The Nightmare of all nightmares.

          Rev 13:15 And he [Satan] had power to give life unto the image [book - 2Cr 4:4] of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

          If the people refuse to stand up against 'the image' of the beast and its followers, violence will find them – eventually.

          • John Mark

            Ah, Beth, you are brave to tell us the identity of the beast!

            The beast you refer to cannot be Islam, which, in fact, is part of the sea which swirls around the beast out of the sea. The beast out of the sea is "the world of Christianised government" and it fights anything in the sea, such as Islam, and conquers whatever is there.

            "The beast out of the earth" is "the world of Christianised thought" and does not include Islam, its thinking nor the Koran, all of which are swirling around in the sea, out of which "the world of Christianised government" has slowly risen from Constantine onwards.

            "The world of Christianised thought" includes all forms of Christianised religion, all forms of Christianised secularism, all forms of scientific thought, and much else besides as long as it can be perceived as having risen out of Christianity, such as reason, the ability to reason.

          • John Mark

            Hi, Beth! I put a response to your last post, but it has been deleted. I guess they prefer your explanation of the beast to mine!

        • John Mark

          Thanks for asking me what I think of what you wrote! I am afraid that I don't understand the point you're making in quoting from Romans 13. I would appreciate some help to link it with what has been said previously.

          However, I really did like your quote from 1 John that those who have received the anointing do not need another person to teach them about what God has revealed to us human beings. I think this verse does not exclude guiding someone to understand better, but the top-down, authoritarian, professional-required "teaching" has NO place in the understanding of Scripture.

          I was wondering who are these "Christian masters" in your post. If they are the thousands upon thousands of professional religious teachers that we have in our culture, who preach sermons and write books, all to "teach" us, then I agree that they are "our masters".

          There is no need for religious professional teachers since those of us, who have received the anointing, can understand God's revelation just as well as those teachers, whom Christian culture has salaried to tickle the ears of those who sit in the pews.

          • Beth

            Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

            The 'higher powers' are the apostles that Christ chose….and they still speak to us through their letters that make up the New Testament.

            Did Jesus sin when "that fox" (as Jesus called him) Herod, demanded an answer and Jesus refused to honor his command?

            Who's your leader?

        • John Mark

          Beth, I've just replied to you but it has been deleted! I didn't follow your quote from Romans and don't see how it applies to what has already been said.

          Liked your idea of not needing to be taught by "Christian masters", but who are these people, who are sitting down at the same table as the Muslims?

          Look forward to your reply.