Onward to Dhimmitude


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Although it initially looked as though Britain’s new Conservative Party coalition would chart a new course in foreign policy, nothing could be further from the truth.  On his first trip to Turkey, Prime Minister David Cameron delivered a speech on July 27, 2010 in which he effectively prostrated himself in front of Ankara’s Islamist government.  And, for good measure, he also maligned Israel in the process — an attempt to further curry favor with the regime, which is allied with Iran, Syria, and Hamas.

Cameron essentially made the case that Britain needs Turkey and that the behavior of the Turkish government has been exemplary.  Rather than framing British-Turkish relations in mutually beneficial terms, Cameron focused on the greatness of Turkey:

Which European country grew at 11% at the start of this year? Which European country will be the second fastest growing economy in the world by 2017? Which country in Europe has more young people than any of the 27 countries of the European Union? Which country in Europe is our number one manufacturer of television sets and, second only to China in the world in construction and in contracting? Tabii ki Türkiye.

Cameron described Turkey as pivotal to NATO and the West and said that its “unique position at the meeting point of East and West gives [Turkey] an unrivaled influence in helping us to get to grips with some of the greatest threats to our collective security.”  Cameron conveniently ignored the fact that Turkey, under the AKP (Islamist) government lead by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has openly embraced the Muslim world and turned against the West.  Cameron further appeased the Erdogan government by saying:

I ask myself this: which country, with its commitment to the international effort in Afghanistan, sends a message to the world that this is a fight not against Muslims but against terrorism? Which Muslim majority country has a long established relationship with Israel while at the same time championing the rights of Palestine? Which European country could have the greatest possible chance of persuading Iran to change its course on nuclear policy? Tabii ki Türkiye.

Just as distasteful were Cameron’s gratuitous remarks about Turkey’s membership in the European Union:

To make the case for Turkey’s membership of the EU, and to seize the huge advances I believe that we can make in our trade and in our security, there are three groups that we have to take on directly. First, there are the protectionists. They see the rise of a country like Turkey as an economic threat we must defend against, not as an opportunity to further our prosperity. Second, there are the polarized. They see the history of the world through the prism of a clash of civilizations. They think that Turkey has to choose between East and West and that choosing both is just not an option. Third, there is the prejudiced; those who willfully misunderstand Islam. They see no difference between real Islam and the distorted version peddled by the extremists. They think the problem is Islam itself and they think the values of Islam can just never be compatible with the values of other religions, societies or cultures.

The United Kingdom has, in recent decades, come close to becoming a dhimmi state – a state subjugated by Islam. Moreover, the UK has become the center of worldwide radical Islamic activities. Alas, Cameron does not recognize this reality. He disregards the fact that Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan is an Islamic extremist, and that his positions reflect values that are in total contradiction to those of Kemal Araturk – the father of the Turkish Republic.  Can it be that Cameron hasn’t noticed that Turkey is changing from a secular state and strategic ally of the West into an Islamist tyranny and a new strategic threat?

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  • Simple Simon

    Which Nato Country denied access to the coalition troops facing Iraq? Which is in conflict with it's Nato Neighbour Greece? Which Country invaded another peaceful neighbour, Cyprus, partitioned it's territory, drove out those of it's people with a different religion at gun point and made them refugees, kept from their home and land by armed troops defending a separation wall they constructed, to split and divide a defencless Island that posed no threat? Who then settled the displaced people's land with alien immigrants with military backgrounds transported in to destroy the historical demographics and preclude any future fair restitution of Christian rights? Need I go on? Which Country massacred the Armenians by the million, persecutes and wages war on it's twenty five percent minority Kurdish population? The answer is Turkey. This backward, Islamist governed, impoverished uncultured Country is the one Cameron wants to give unrestricted immigration rights to, despite his pre election pledges to reduce immigration to the UK. Is he mad, a simpleton or misadvised ?
    Does it matter the whole EU has similar long standing objectives. How can this appeasement be explained?

    • alex

      “How can this appeasement be explained? “

      Very simply. These "leaders" do not care much about anything but their own benefits. Does anybody really think that BHO, Barney Frank, Dodd and the rest are just idiots or "misadvised"? They all know perfectly well what they are doing and what the consequences are.

      No matter. Their goal to still enough to secure themselves, then their families and the next generation as well – in this order. The rest of you and the country could go to Hell.

    • aspacia

      Yes Simon!

      Thanks for saving me the effort. However, you might want to read regarding the atrocities committed by the Ottoman Turks in Africa. These were far worse that anything we did to Native Americans.

  • muchiboy

    Israel and Imperialism-The Sinai Campaign

    "In the final days of October 1956, Britain, France, and Israel, in a coordinated military and diplomatic campaign, invaded Egypt. The Suez War, as it came to be known, was triggered …Israel’s motives were different. Since its creation, Israel had suffered from border incursions by Palestinian refugee guerillas–fedayeen–……Britain and France needed an internationally acceptable reason for military action. To this end, they secretly invited Israel …."
    http://www.myjewishlearning.com/israel/History/19

    • MixMChess

      What does The Sinai Campaign have to do with anything in the article or comments?

      By the way, the Sinai Campaign doesn't support you fallacious attempt to connect Israel and Imperialism. Try actually reading your own link, Israel's involvement in Sinai had nothing to do with Imperialism, but the exact opposite. Israel was defending (or resisting) against constant murderous Egyptian cross-border incursions and attacks (a form of Egyptian Imperialism): "Israel’s motives were different. Since its creation, Israel had suffered from border incursions by Palestinian refugee guerillas–fedayeen–whose destruction of life and property posed an existential threat to the fledgling Jewish state." Get a clue man.

      • muchiboy

        "By the way, the Sinai Campaign doesn't support you fallacious attempt to connect Israel and Imperialism. Try actually reading your own link, Israel's involvement in Sinai had nothing to do with Imperialism,….. Get a clue man. "

        Hmmm,must have been something I read between the lines,MixMChess.

        Muchiboy

      • aspacia

        Mix,

        I believe Simon was stating that. Israel did attack Egypt in 67 because of the blockade. Simon appears to justify the attack.

  • Frank(ly) M'Dear

    Britain is so screwed! I sold up my real estate holdings near Edinburgh just last year. Going to Britain twice a year to take care of business had become increasingly depressing, and the dhimmitude of the British government and British public was the major part of the reason why. Though I've family and friends there, I've no intention of ever returning, even for a brief visit. I encourage my British contacts to visit America and discover if they remember what freedom feels like – at least for the moment.

    But Barack Obama has other plans for us, I know…

    • aspacia

      Ditto. I probably will never return either.

  • Bernice Julian

    This is unbelievably insane! Where is Cameron's brain? Can he honestly be that blind?
    Political correctness is suicidal!..

  • posse101

    axiom: you let Muslims into your country, unless you've got enough cahonies you'll soon lose your country.

    mark today's date in history. this is the day Barack Obama strongly endorsed the building of the controversial mosque being built at Ground Zero.

    • Lary9

      posse101~ "this is the day Barack Obama strongly endorsed the building of the controversial mosque being built at Ground Zero. "

      What do you mean? Did he make a statement of endorsement? I thought he was mute because of it being moot.

      • posse101

        as if there were not already enough proof that this guy is a muslim shill, today he strongly endorsed the building of the rock from which many of the religion of peace crawl out and pray. check out frontpagemag.com

    • muchiboy

      "axiom: you let Muslims into your country, unless you've got enough cahonies you'll soon lose your country. "

      axiom II: you let Zionists read Jews into your country read Palestine, unless you've got enough cahonies you'll soon lose your country.

      What's good for the goose.Muchiboy

      • posse101

        if you can't see the difference between the two then frankly you haven't been doing your homework or you just refuse to see. either way i feel sorry for you and, in a greater sense, i feel sorry for mankind.

        … and on a practical level if you let Jews into your country you get Nobel Prize Winners, cures for diseases, cutting edge technology, philanthropy, an educated population, civic and national leaders, doctors, researchers and other high level people performing high level functions in a very high level society.

        … and if you let practitioners of Islam in you get submission, among other charming
        things.

        • muchiboy

          "if you can't see the difference between the two.."

          Sure there are differences,posse101,significant differences.The difference between us is that you fail to see the commonalities and they are no less valid.

          "and on a practical level if you let Jews into your country you get Nobel Prize Winners,"

          Jews are welcomed in and to my country Canada for just the reasons you cite.

          "and if you let practitioners of Islam in you get submission,"

          Canada has benefited from all immigrant groups,and we are stronger because of our multiple ethnicities.

          "i feel sorry for mankind."

          I feel sorry for the sick,the weak,the vulnerable,the victimized.Mankind has the strength,the ability and the goodness to cure the sick,assist the weak,protect the vulnerable and come to the aid of the victimized and punish the perpetrators .

          Shalom. Muchiboy

          • posse101

            when i was 20 i felt the exact way. and, i still do. the sick SHOULD be taken care of, likewise the victimized, and the perps SHOULD be punished. i have no problem with health care for those that can't help themselves or helping the victimized. but my question is how do you make the incredible leap from helping the victimized to it's the jew's (zionists) fault?

          • aspacia

            He is probably blaming the Arab disenfranchisement from Israel, and not addressing the fact that the vast Arab World has disenfranchised its brethren far more than Israel has ever done. Just look at the amount of supplies Israel allows and sends in to the violent Gazans.

          • muchiboy

            "but my question is how do you make the incredible leap from helping the victimized to it's the jew's (zionists) fault? "

            aspacia is correct when he posts:

            "He is probably blaming the Arab disenfranchisement from Israel.."

            I don't intend to argue my case further,posse101.We can agree to disagree.Muchiboy

          • posse101

            muchboy,

            you sound like a reasonable guy whose unfortunately been subjected to the multiculturalists who insist multiculturalism is good. however before you buy into that pack of sweet sounding lies you should be aware of the many drawbacks of multiculturalism. loss of belief in your country, loss of personal freedoms, loss of national pride, "everyone is unique, special and equal" garbage, and an inflated sense of self. it also, and invariably, leads to socialism and ultimately to loss of freedoms. if you don't believe me check out what multiculturalism has done for your fellow Canadian Mark Steyn. go to his website (steynonline.com) and research what multiculturalism has done to his freedom of speech. and to the freedom of speech for all Canadians, and soon, for all the freedom loving people of the world. if that doesn't strike your fancy you can also reference Geert Wilders and see the hot water he's in over in Europe. another freedom loving person whose "benefitted " from multiculturalism. that's a lot to research but do your homework and get back to me. don't stick your head in the sand on this one. we've got an entire world to save… together.

          • aspacia

            Western nations often do protect the victimized. We do far more for victims than any Islamic nation. Islam does not protect victims, the vulnerable, and come to their aid. Islamic charities use the majority of their funds to promote violent jihad.

            BTW, Canuk, the USA has far more ethnic groups and languages than most Western nations.

          • muchiboy

            "BTW, Canuk, the USA has far more ethnic groups and languages than most Western nations."

            We're kin and more alike then different.We share the most important values,like most of the western liberal democracies.Shalom,Amigo.Muchiboy

          • aspacia

            I hope so, however, I hope Canada continues taking a stance against Islam, especially Sharia Law and Honor Murder.

          • MixMChess

            "Sure there are differences,posse101,significant differences.The difference between us is that you fail to see the commonalities and they are no less valid."

            There are no valid commonalities, First, Israel based on history alone, Israel has always belonged to the Jews. Second, Jews in other countries don't seek to usurp the law of the land with their own religious law (as do Islamists with Sharia), heck even Israel is SECULAR.

          • aspacia

            Good Mix, we are agreed.

            BTW: aspacia is female.

      • aspacia

        much,

        The Jews purchase 80% of the land. You are mixing apples and oranges. Jews allow Muslim to worship Allah, in contrast, Muslims prohibit the open worship of any faith but Islam in Muslim majority nations.

        Also, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, etc., were created by European imperialists after WWI. 60 new nations have been created since 1948. Why is there only a stink about Israel.

        BIGOTRY- SIMPLE ANTIJEWISH BIGOTRY.

        • muchiboy

          "The Jews purchase 80% of the land"

          Arab land was purchased by Zionists.A matter of historical record and maybe one reason the Jews have the reputation they have today,aspacia.Yes,we're talking the early part of the past century,when morality was different from today,but in my book buying land from landlords to dispossess/disenfranchise the peasants is morally repugnant and makes you and yours as morally accountable as those Arab landlords who sold the land.My people suffered the same from the Highland Clearances.Nothing to be proud of.Frankly,even given the times,it was shameful.Regardless,purchased land was only one aspect of the Zionist occupation and colonization of Palestine.Muchiboy

          • aspacia

            So all the land in previous eons purchased from and by kings is also morally repugnant? All the land purchased from Native American leaders is morally repugnant. All the land purchased by Abraham is morally repugnant.

            The deeds from the Ottoman's are legally binding, deal with it.

            Frankly, I find the viciousness of the Muslim attacks against Zionist Jews morally repugnant. Sharon is a product of one such attack prior to the establishment of Israel. A Jewish village; Jews, living on purchased land were slaughtered by Muslims. With land deeds, other Zionist Jews repatriated the village, Sharon was one of them. Again, the Muslims attacked and attempted to exterminate Jews.

            How about the 650,000 Jews expelled from Islamic lands? What about the subjugation nonMuslims suffer in Muslim dominated lands.

            Israel is far more liberal than any Muslim land and you should know this.

            muchiboy, as a Jewish infidel you probably will be targeted my Muslims one day in the future simply because you are nonMuslim. Jews do not do this. Sure, Jews were told to exterminate the Canaanites, but were never ordered to exterminate or subjugate all nonJews.

          • muchiboy

            "you probably will be targeted my Muslims one day in the future simply because you are nonMuslim."

            When I was younger and a soldier in southern Africa I considered fighting with the PLO against Israel.The reasons were honorable then as now.If the time comes as you say it will be my son who will fight against Islam.However,I do not think most Muslims are Islamists nor Jihadists just as all Jews are not Zionists.Muchiboy

          • MixMChess

            "When I was younger and a soldier in southern Africa I considered fighting with the PLO against Israel.The reasons were honorable then as now.If the time comes as you say it will be my son who will fight against Islam."

            Terrorism and the killing of innocent civilians is honorable? That is the basic philosophy behind the PLO! You may as well join the neo-Nazis or Al Qaeda.

            "However,I do not think most Muslims are Islamists nor Jihadists just as all Jews are not Zionists."

            Ron, you have no clue what you are talking about… The majority of Jews are Zionists, identify with Israel and support Israel's right to exist. That said, Jews who are Zionists occupy a wide political spectrum from left (JStreet) to right (ZOA) but still Zionists non the less.

            As for Muslims, I want to say that Daniel Pipes has provided statistics that show that while most Muslims do not engage in Islamist or Jihadist activities, a majority might morally support such endeavors.

          • muchiboy

            "So all the land in previous eons purchased from and by kings is also morally repugnant? "

            It is not the land purchases alone that make for the moral repugnance of a re-created Israel,aspacia.It is not even the disenfranchisement of the Palestinians from their land.It is the denial of the Palestinian people of their birthright and homeland.Didn't happen in America,didn't happen in Canada,didn't happen in Australia,didn't happen in Rhodesia.Didn't even happen in South Africa.Happened in Israel,62 years ago.Congratulations.Muchiboy

          • MixMChess

            "It is not the land purchases alone that make for the moral repugnance of a re-created Israel,aspacia. It is not even the disenfranchisement of the Palestinians from their land.It is the denial of the Palestinian people of their birthright and homeland."

            As I mentioned in my previous post, the lands purchased by the early Zionists were VACANT and Tenant-free, no moral qualms to speak of and certainly no disenfranchisement.

            It wasn't until 1948 that "Jews" acquired additional land via legal means in a DEFENSIVE war against invading Arab armies. Of course your claims of disenfranchisement ignore that over 800,000 Jews from Arab lands were expelled in 1948. Even still, Israel offered to repatriate 300,000 of the 470,000 Arab Refugees in 1950 and the offer was denied by the Arabs. They had their chance and blew it – get over it.

            I won't even comment on your other examples because your point is laughable at best.

          • aspacia

            Birthright???? There were no Palestinian people until after 1967. This is a political ploy to destroy Israel. Israel, that tiny bit of land with no oil. Muslims just can't stand the fact that Jews have won the numerous wars Arab/Muslims instigated.

            Face it, this violence against Israel is racist, or religiouscists, a call for the genocide of all Jews. Hamas claims they want all Jews to return to Israel because it will be easier to kill them in one place, rather than hunt them down worldwide.

            You bet the colonists denied the Native Americans, Australian aboriginals, South African Afrikaaners their birthright. Read some history regarding how these disenfranchised suffered.

            Israel has attempted to treat the Arab with equality, until those residing in Israel refused to acknowledge the country, and behaved in a violent, treasonous fashion aiding and abetting the PLO in their homicide missions.

            As far as I am concerned, similar to Lieberman, Israelis may only stay in Israel if they sign an oath of allegiance to Israel. All others must leave after Israel pays compensation. Those who remain will be destroyed. Frankly, Israel should do this with the West Bank and Gaza as well.

            This will end the problem, provide Israel with a defensible border, and ensure that there is no 5th column.

            Draconian, sure, but a historically pragmatic solution to this ongoing Muslim violence directed at Jews, then Christians.

          • muchiboy

            "You bet the colonists denied the Native Americans, Australian aboriginals, South African Afrikaaners their birthright."

            No they didn't,aspacia.Israel is alone in denying the colonized their birthright and homeland.None of the above mentioned colonizers could be accused of ethnic cleansing of the occupied and oppressed.Hundreds of years after colonization,the first nation peoples of America and Canada still live within the boundaries of their ancestors,as do the Aboriginal peoples of Australia and New Zealand.Even in South Africa where Apartheid was practiced all Africans i.e.blacks live within the natural and national borders of their ancestors prior to colonization.Same for Rhodesia.As bad as they may have behaved,none of the European colonizers denied the inhabitants their birthright nor homeland.None had to build a wall to keep the original peoples out of their homeland.Only the lone Zionist state on earth.Shameful, unconscionable and unforgivable given that we live in these modern times and should know better.

            "Those who remain will be destroyed. Frankly, Israel should do this with the West Bank and Gaza as well.
            This will end the problem, provide Israel with a defensible border, and ensure that there is no 5th column."

            Thankfully the western world will not allow this to happen,aspacia like they permitted the Holocaust to happen.

            Muchiboy

          • aspacia

            Right, and I have a nice piece of land to sell you in Palm Springs.

            ???Colonizers did not deny Native Americans, Australian Aboriginals, and South African Blacks their homeland. Colonizers did not practice ethnic cleansing? Colonizers did not take aboriginal children from their homes, force them into European clothing and language??

            You have zero idea. For insight, there is a PBS series regarding Native Americans which is enlightening. It details the conquest of the USA by Europeans, and how European colonizers treating them. Also, there are numerous English and history classes regarding Native American culture, and how they were driven off their land. Ever read regarding The Trail of Tears? Thousands of Natives were driven from their lands by colonizers.

            Aboriginals of numerous nations were herded into reservations after most had been massacred and starved by the European colonizers.

            Israel built the antihomicidebombing wall to prevent the continual massacre of its unarmed civilians, and has worked very well. This fact, the prevention of indiscriminate murder by Muslims against all Israelis really ticks Muslims off, hence the mendacious campaign against the wall.

            The pendulum is swinging back, slowly but surely, in Israel's favor. After Obama, similar to after Carter, the US will probably elect another rather hard line conservative.

            Remember, Arab/Israeli Muslims can vote and worship their faith in Israel. How many Muslim lands welcome Israelis, and allow nonMuslims to worship without restriction?

          • muchiboy

            "Right, and I have a nice piece of land to sell you in Palm Springs. "

            Well,since you and yours have more to lose then this writer,I defer to your opinion,aspacia.But I do hope you're wrong.

            "Colonizers did not deny Native Americans, Australian Aboriginals, and South African Blacks their homeland. "

            Name me a colonizer ,aspacia, who just after independence were in the enviable position of being in the majority.How did this somewhat unique situation arise?Tens of thousands of native Palestinians refugees displaced by similar numbers of European Jewish refugees and denied their right of return to their homeland.Only Israel comes to mind.
            I recall white Rhodesians lamenting perhaps that if they did to the Africans what the Jews did to the Palestinians they would be secure in their country and they were correct.But Rhodesians didn't sink to those depths of immorality like the Zionists.Neither did the other colonial powers nor colonists.Likely never even came up.

            Aspacia,I came across this interesting link last night while
            trying to gain more insight into the early land purchases of the Zionists.Another interesting link refers Mark Twains visit to the Holy Land discussed here some time ago.

            Gandi: http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-gandhi170903.ht

            Twain: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Books/Sto

          • MixMChess

            "Tens of thousands of native Palestinians refugees displaced by similar numbers of European Jewish refugees and denied their right of return to their homeland."

            Ron, as usual you continue to ignore facts and repeat the same old lies. Jews did NOT displace the Palestinians, there is absolutely no evidence for your claim. The Jews bought VACANT and Tenant-Free land. The historical records prove this fact.

            Arabs were not displaced until 1948 because they started a WAR with Israel. The lands acquired by Israel in its DEFENSIVE war are completely legal under international law and MORAL considering that the Arabs sought to exterminate the Jews and Israel needed an appropriate buffer to prevents its destruction (read: 2nd Holocaust).

            Further, the Jews being a generous people offered to repatriate the 300,000 of the 420,000 Arab refugees in 1950 and the Arabs REFUSED! How can you respond to that fact? Is anyone naive enough to think the Arabs would show the same generosity? Oh that's right, the Arabs expelled 800,000 + Jews from their lands in 1948!

            As for your link to Twain, even he has admitted that the region of Israel was devoid of life and people writing in the mid to late 19th century. This supports my previous facts that Jews bought vacant and tenant free land to build their country. Most of the so called Palestinians arrived after the Jews made increased the standard of living and provided economic opportunities. Of course you can't respond to facts you can only claim the Jews are somehow immoral while you support the Pali-Nazi terrorists. Face it you're an immoral hate-monger.

          • MixMChess

            "Only the lone Zionist state on earth.Shameful, unconscionable and unforgivable given that we live in these modern times and should know better. "

            Who are you to call anyone shameful Ron? You wanted to join a terrorist organization (PLO) that seeks the destruction (read Holocaust) of Jews in Israel, you repeatedly exhibit symptoms of antisemitism, you deny the genocide and hardships of other peoples (native americans etc.) to single out Jews as being the worst human rights offenders when the exact opposite is true, and don't bother to learn basic history or facts about a cause you try to claim moral superiority on. The hard truth is your hatred of Jews and Israel is unconscionable and your support for the genocidal maniacs that are the Palestinians is unforgivable.

          • muchiboy

            "Who are you to call anyone shameful Ron?"

            I'm not the only one to level that charge against Israel,MixMChess.Others,older,wiser and less shameful then myself are of the same opinion.The charge stands until corrected.Israel and her supporters need to take the necessary and difficult actions that allow a fair and just settlement.Unfortunately I don't think the Israelis are willing to give up enough of what they have taken from the Palestinians,but the more I learn of certain past Israeli politicians i.e. Rabin and soldiers i.e.Moshe Dayan , the more I think I may be proven wrong some day.

            "You wanted to join a terrorist organization (PLO)"

            One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter,MixMChess
            You just have to look at the Irgun,Stern Gang,etc. And yesterdays terrorist is tomorrows or todays government.

            " The hard truth is your hatred of Jews and Israel "

            Give the same right of return to the Palestinians as you give to black Ethiopian,Russian,French,New York Jews and I will recognize your precious Israel.Or recreate Israel on the banks of the Rhine and I will recognize Israel's right to exist.
            Shalom.Muchiboy

          • MixMChess

            "IThe charge stands until corrected."

            No, it doesn't work that way, you are innocent until proven guilty. The fact is Israel has not done anything that needs correcting. The Arabs and so-called Palestinians on the other hand have terrorized the poor Jews (in and out of Israel) for the past 80+ years. The Palestinians should be begging Israel and the World for their disgusting crimes against humanity. I don't know how you can sleep at night supporting the grossly immoral Pali-Nazis.

            "Israel and her supporters need to take the necessary and difficult actions that allow a fair and just settlement."

            You mean settlements offered in 1948, 1950, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1979, 1993 and 2000 to name a few? The Pali-Nazis have rejected peace every time Israel has offered a fair and just settlement and peace. The Palestinians don't want peace, they want war and to exterminate the Jews. Just as you don't want peace but to defame Jews to satisfy your own demented hate mongering.

            "Unfortunately I don't think the Israelis are willing to give up enough of what they have taken from the Palestinians,"

            Hmmm… Israel gave back all of Sinai to Egypt, gave up all of Gaza (only to be met with rockets as thanks) and have started to give back parts of the W. Bank. It will never be enough until Israel is eliminated.

            "One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter,MixMChess You just have to look at the Irgun,Stern Gang,etc. And yesterdays terrorist is tomorrows or todays government."

            No, the Palestinians have and always will be terrorists, they are not freedom fighters. I don't recall American Revolutionaries blowing up British schoolchildren? The Palestinians are a culture of hate, you know it and I know it.

            As for the Irgun and Stern gang… first, they were formed as a direct response to protect Jews from Arab massacres and terrorism in the 1920s and 1930s. Second, they didn't engage in terrorism in any traditional sense, they planned military strikes against the Arab armies and rioters. The worse the Irgun ever did was NOTHING compared to the ATROCIOUS TERRORISM committed by the Pali-Nazis. Third, the Israeli government formally disbanded and outlawed the Irgun and Stern gang when the government was formed. The ideals and phhilosophy of the Stern gang and Irgun was never adopted by the Israelis and was in fact rejected. Of course, for the Palestinians, Terrorism and hatred are the ONLY ideologies and they will likely never correct the err of their ways.

            "Give the same right of return to the Palestinians as you give to black Ethiopian,Russian,French,New York Jews and I will recognize your precious Israel.Or recreate Israel on the banks of the Rhine and I will recognize Israel's."

            As I have stated before, the Palestinians were offered just that in 1950 and rejected it, they lost their chance, too bad. Additionally, the right of return is in perpetuitiy extending beyond the original class of refugees which is not just immoral but against international legal precedent (hence illegal under international law). Lastly, Palestinian right of return is immoral for the basic fact that Arabs started a war with Israel and a right of return rewards them for their hostility. Again you ignore that 800,000+ Jews were kicked out of Arab lands. From a logistics standpoint, you could treat 1948 as a population exchange taking place between Arabs and Jews to reduce ethnic friction – which is completely legal under international law and completely moral for the obvious benefits of preventing friction and promoting peace.

            You need to get with the program Ron and stop spewing nonsense.

          • muchiboy

            "No, it doesn't work that way, you are innocent until proven guilty. The fact is Israel has not done anything that needs correcting. "

            You know,MixMChess,if the Nazi's had defeated us,somebody would be celebrating the Holocaust this evening,not condemning it.And we certainly wouldn't be having this conversation unless it was in a safe house or dark alley.In other words,the story is told by the victors,not the defeated,the victimizers,not the victims,quite independent of right or wrong,which to me is puzzling and unforgivable.
            The Israeli policy or rationale of "creating facts on the ground" in Palestine serves to define justice or right and wrong in their own terms,almost preempting dialog,and serves to give the false and misleading impression of validity.
            Certainly,each point we raise deserves a response and is seldom resolved to the satisfaction of all.Well I guess that's why there are courts of law and judges and unfortunately even wars but there are still appeals and that's what we are dealing with here.And sure,while my views are very unpopular here and else where in the west and I may be way out in left field the fact that many others,including intelligent,well informed and good thinkers,share my views goes a long way to satisfy my reservations.I am indeed in good company. When I read the words of Gandhi I know these are well chosen and wise.They appeal as much to ones sense of justice as they do to the heart.And of course the Jews have their story, too.You are quite capable of telling that story and I feel honored that you take the time and effort to tell it.
            And as you and Jews every where rightly insist that "we must never forget" i.e. the Holocaust, myself and others of like mind and opinion don't want to see the cause of the Palestinian people i.e.the Nakba lost as are many good causes or tragedies.
            If I could I would make room for another Palestine beside your beloved Israel but of course there is only one for two peoples.We have to share this tiny planet as they have to share that tiny splinter of land.It's a necessary and worthwhile argument,MixMChess.Shalom.Muchiboy

          • MixMChess

            "The Israeli policy or rationale of "creating facts on the ground" in Palestine serves to define justice or right and wrong in their own terms,almost preempting dialog,and serves to give the false and misleading impression of validity."

            You're right, Israel has created lots of facts on the ground, FACT Israel has given ALL of Sinai to Egypt, FACT Israel has given ALL of GAZA to Palestinians, FACT Israel has COMPLETELY withdrawn from S. Lebanon, FACT Israel is preparing to give the Palestinians parts of the W. Bank AND Israel.

            The Palestinians are trying to create their own facts on the ground firmly rooted in anti-semitism and Jew-hatred. Just look at their textbooks that describe Jews as pigs and urge children to kill Jews because they are less than human.

            "And sure,while my views are very unpopular here and else where in the west and I may be way out in left field the fact that many others,including intelligent,well informed and good thinkers,share my views goes a long way to satisfy my reservations.I am indeed in good company."

            Yes you're in GREAT company with the likes of David Duke, Yassir Arafat, Hugo Chavez, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Fred Phelps, Norman Finkelstein, Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini, Adolph Hitler, Ahmed Yassin, Noam Chomsky and other notable hatemongers. Congratulations!

            "myself and others of like mind and opinion don't want to see the cause of the Palestinian people i.e.the Nakba lost as are many good causes or tragedies."

            No you want to perpetuate the LIE that is the Nakba. You want to replace the title of histories greatest crime (the Holocaust) with the so-called Palestinian plight. The only tragedy that ever befell the Palestinians are the ones they created themselves through years of hatred, lies and venom directed at the innocent Israelis. The real catastrophe is the disgusting and immoral way the Palestinians treat the Israelis and Jews worldwide.

            "If I could I would make room for another Palestine beside your beloved Israel but of course there is only one for two peoples."

            Um, Israel tried to do just that in 2000 by offering all of Gaza and 98% to the Pali-Nazis. Face it you don't want a Palestinian state side by side with Israel, you just want to eliminate Israel to feed your own antisemitism and hatemongering. You're a sociopathic just like the Pali-Nazis.

          • muchiboy

            "Yes you're in GREAT company with the likes of David Duke, Yassir Arafat, Hugo Chavez, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Fred Phelps, Norman Finkelstein, Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini, Adolph Hitler, Ahmed Yassin, Noam Chomsky and other notable hatemongers."

            You forgot Attila the Hun, the Grinch,and Yosemite Sam . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eo0OY8GOuc

            and talking about Mahatma Gandi:
            http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-gandhi170903.ht

            It would be interesting to see Gandhi's views in 1946 when the full extent of Hitlers "excesses" were known.

            See interview with Holocaust survivor,you forgot to add him to the list. http://www.ijsn.net/home/

            Shalom,Amigo

            Muchiboy

          • MixMChess

            Of course, you can't respond to any my facts. Better to let others speak for you.

          • muchiboy

            "Why would I listen to some Kapo who suffers from Stockholm syndrome among other sever psychological disorders? "

            You do not have the right nor experience to dismiss Mr.Meyer as a Kapo suffering from Stockholm Syndrom and severe psychological disorders,MixMChess.It is grossly unfair to dismiss this wise Jewish elder who has experienced and survived the excesses of Nazism and the death camps in such a mean spirited and cavalier manner.
            What this man has to teach us is gained from suffering we two will thankfully never know.Even if you disagree with him,you owe Mr.Meyer a hearing and respect for what he has been through.Are you a punk or a respectful student of mankind?Muchiboy

          • MixMChess

            "Jews were told to exterminate the Canaanites, but were never ordered to exterminate or subjugate all nonJews."

            aspacia, I think you are confusing the Canaanites with the Amaleks. I believe the biblical Israelites just conquered the Canaanites and it was the Amaleks who were exterminated. Of course, the reason given for destroying the Amaleks was they tried to destroy the biblical Israelites.

            Some biblical scholars suggest these stories are merely allegorical and not historical facts. Still, as I have previously pointed out, the commandment to destroy the Amaleks was for a specific time and place and has no current or modern authority (unless you have time machine – which Prof. Hawkings suggests is a practical impossibility). Whereas Sharia still has modern force to command Muslims to enslave, kill or forcibly convert infidels.

          • aspacia

            As a human I do err, however not in this case. Peruse Deut. 20:16-17 and 25:19 for insight.

            Many scholars do argue that the Torah is allegorical, however, approximately 20 or so years ago, geologists discovered a layer of sediment that points to a worldwide flood. Interesting.

            In a previous post you claim some of my assertions are laughable. Okay, which ones and why laughable?

            A Deist

          • MixMChess

            "In a previous post you claim some of my assertions are laughable. Okay, which ones and why laughable? "

            I was actually referring to Muchiboys comments not yours as laughable. The display of the posts can get confusing.

          • MixMChess

            "but in my book buying land from landlords to dispossess/disenfranchise the peasants is morally repugnant and makes you and yours as morally accountable as those Arab landlords who sold the land."

            Ron, as usual, you have your historical facts all wrong. Jews did not buy land to dispossess Arabs. The historical records show that the Jews bought VACANT and Tenant-Free land from the Arab landlords (even though the Arab landlords had originally STOLEN it from Jews through imperial conquests into Israel). The Jews went out of their way to avoid dispossessing or disenfranchising Arabs, and were successful I might add. To put it simply, there is no question that the Jews acted in the most moral and ethical manner when building their state.

          • aspacia

            Okay much,

            I have a rental property. If I choose to sell it to another entity this is morally repugnant?

            I do not believe so.

        • muchiboy

          "Why is there only a stink about Israel. "

          Israel is unique,aspacia.After all,we are talking about re-creating a biblical state in modern ,post colonial times.And while there has been a continuous Jewish presence since the creation of Zion,for all intents and purposes,there has been a continuous Arab read Palestinian presence ,too.Furthermore,with the formation of Zionism and the mass movement of European Jews and Jewish refugees to Palestine one cannot dismiss claims of occupation , colonization and ethnic cleansing.I won't argue the point further.Muchiboy

          • MixMChess

            "for all intents and purposes,there has been a continuous Arab read Palestinian presence "

            Wrong, the region was largely vacant and devoid of towns and people. Most of the Arabs arrived AFTER the first Zionists created economic opportunities and raised the standard of living. Even still, Israel was built on tenant-free and vacant land to specifically avoid disenfranchising the few native Arab populations that were in existence. Its amusing that you get so passionate about claiming moral superiority on a subject that you know absolutely no history about and can't even get the basic facts right.

            "European Jews and Jewish refugees to Palestine one cannot dismiss claims of occupation , colonization and ethnic cleansing"

            Um, yes they can dismiss your false claims of occupation, colonization and ethnic cleansing because as I have proven repeatedly in the past they DIDN'T HAPPEN. Get your facts straight… oh that's right you can't be bothered provide facts to support any of your arguments.

          • aspacia

            If you are talking about the 67 War, okay. I guess Egypt and Jordan were occupiers prior to Israel. You know, those nice Hashemite Jordanians who would not allow Jews to pray at their most sacred site, the Temple Mount.

  • Lary9

    I've read all of Robert Spencer's books along with B. Gabriel, Walid Shobat et al; and I have strong views against the nonsense of concessionary PCism. I'm constantly locking horns with my friends and colleagues who are lock-step liberals. As a relatively independent political being, I tell you this. This is one is a tough sell to mainstreamers because they don't know anything but what they were told—and they were told "Islam is a religion of Peace" by even George W. Bush. So the problem here isn't just liberalism, it's the whole social construct of PCism that pervades America. If we don't wake up, the Gates of Vienna will be in Chicago soon. However, it won't happen because of Turkey. Turkey's as good a shot as there is for pacification by cooptation.