9-11 Conspiracy Theorist Hits the Road

Infamous 9-11 conspiracy theorist David Ray Griffin, whose books insist the Bush Administration and not al Qaeda blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, is launching a speaking tour this week to help merge the “9-11 Truth Movement” with “more traditional Peace and Anti-War groups” against the “illegal and immoral war” in Afghanistan.

The tour also presages Griffin’s next book, Cognitive Infiltration: An Obama Appointee’s Plan to Undermine the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory. This volume will make much hay over an Obama White House official’s article in 2008 as a Harvard law professor, suggesting that the government actively rebut conspiracy theories by networking on social websites.

Griffin is a philosopher emeritus at the United Methodist Church’s Claremont Seminary in California and espouses “process theology,” which asserts that God is constantly evolving. His Center for Process Studies is located at Claremont. Process theology also posits that history has no destination and that good and evil, often manifest through endless conspiracies transcending generations, are perpetually in conflict, since even God lacks full authority.

Prodigiously, Griffin has been churning out 9-11 conspiracy books since 2004, asserting that U.S. agencies contrived a false flag terrorist attack through controlled demolitions. His first conspiracy potboiler was The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11. Griffin believes that U.S. history is primarily a long catalogue of conspiracies across two centuries to facilitate American imperialism and aggression. Griffin faults the United States for killing hundreds of millions of people globally through its economic, military and environmental crimes, making the U.S. more murderous than the old Soviet Empire or the Third Reich.

It’s a heavy burden for Griffin to reveal the largely hidden truth about an endlessly genocidal America, when the cover-up, involving hundreds of thousands of conspirators across many generations has been so successful. But Griffin, a distinguished looking white haired man with a calm and measured demeanor in his public appearances, is persevering with his prolific writing and frequent speeches. His latest speaking tour starts April 23 at Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa and will take him to 14 other American and Canadian universities, churches and community centers, where eager truth seekers will gather for Griffin to unwrap the long hidden truth.

“The physical evidence is so strong for the destruction of the World Trade Center by explosives that we’re really on level of truth now not conjecture,” Griffin calmly reported on a recent English language Russian cable network, citing “massive evidence compiled by scientists, architects and engineers.” There is simply “no other possibility” but “massive scientific fraud,” he declared. Of the innumerable conspirators, he surmised: “They lied and they lied and they lied.”

Why did the Bush Administration stage 9-11? Griffin carefully explained to his Russian cable broadcast interviewer: “It’s an extreme example of something imperialistic governments have done for a very long time,” i.e. “false flag operations.” He expounded: “You attack your own people, you blame another country that you already have reasons to attack. Hitler did this in Poland. Japan did it in Manchuria. Our government did it planting evidence that these attacks were carried out by members of al Qaeda.”

In a conference call earlier this year, Griffin explained he favors the end of nation states in favor of “global democracy.” Under this new international regime, “We could get rid of war. We don’t have money for health care or ecological crisis. Take money out of the system and militarism out of the system.”

Meanwhile, until “global democracy” is attained, Griffin must crusade against the “propaganda machine that we call the Pentagon and mainstream media,” which is “so powerful and so influential particularly on people who haven’t had the kind of education that armors them against this.” His obstacle is that a “large percentage of people…are so brainwashed that they cannot see the obvious.”

This week, in a 4600 word dissertation on www.911truth.org, Griffin verbosely responded to my own Institute on Religion and Democracy’s critique of him. “Was the Bush administration too moral?” he sarcastically asked of our doubts that Bush appointees and law enforcement blew up the World Trade Center and Pentagon. As evidence of the “Bush-Cheney White House” depravity, Griffin cited “lies” about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and about air quality at the post-11 World Trade Center site.

He triumphantly queried: “Given these facts, why would the IRD consider it self-evident that the Bush administration could not have orchestrated 9/11?”

As proof of his own scholarly legitimacy, Griffin heralded ostensible endorsements from former Minnesota Governor and wrestler Jesse Ventura, some of the “Jersey Girls’ 9-11 widows,” and one member of the Japanese senate. Griffin asked rhetorically: “Does IRD believe that such people endorse silly books?”

In contrast with IRD’s “business of issuing propaganda,” Griffin celebrated that the “9/11 Truth Movement, by contrast, [has] provided evidence — an enormous amount of evidence, in fact — showing that the official conspiracy theory [that al Qaeda did it] is simply not believable.” Indeed, “the weight of expert opinion — among people in the relevant professions who have examined the evidence and are not dependent upon the government for their livelihood — is almost entirely on the side of the 9/11 Truth Movement.”

What a lonely battle it must be for Griffin and other 9-11 conspiracy theorists to champion their dark “truth” of fathomless duplicity against a “brainwashed” world enslaved by Pentagon propaganda. Maybe a deity more powerful than Griffin’s brand of process theology permits will extend him grace and remind him that even evil has its limits.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/GaryRumain Gary Rumain

    Sigh! Why are there so many retards in the world?

    • http://911blogger.com bofors

      I assume you mean those retards who believe that lie about some guy in a cave and 19 patsies with "box-cutters"….

      Yes, it is amazing how many people will believe whatever their TV tells them to believe, despite mountains of evidence, starting WTC 7, that proves beyond any doubt that it is a lie.

  • BS1977

    Didn't this guy formally publish the Flat Earth Journal….or was it the book about Elvis, an Alien from Andromeda? These wacko conspiracy theorists peddle their mumbo jumbo and live in an irrational and bizarre mental world….and are usually immune to reason, reality or facts.

    • http://911blogger.com bofors

      Flat Earth Journal?

      Wacko conspiracy theorists?

      WTF are you taking about?

      What the hell do you know about 9/11?

      Let me guess, just what the corporate controlled media told you.

      Wake up, you deluded fool!

      9/11 was an Inside Job and anybody with an IQ can figure it out now.

    • TruthLiesHere

      "The very word, secrecy, is repugnant in a free and open society, and we are as a people, inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings. There is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it's in my control." — John F. Kennedy

      I guess in your twisted reality, JFK must have been a wacko as well. So must have the more than 1000 architects and engineers who signed a petition in San Fransisco demanding that Congress begin a new investigation into the destruction of the three WTC skyscrapers on 9/11 because they don't buy the "official" version of events.

      Government must just love gullible schmucks like you. Either that or you're a paid dis-info agent who's doing a lousy job of it.

      FBI Admits it has no actual evidence linking the 19 Arab suspects to 9-11 http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/govknow

      Elias Davidsson: 9/11, International Law, & No Proof of Muslim Hijackers http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/1098 http://newcrisispapers.com/noevidence.pdf

      Israel did 9/11 – All the Proof in the World! http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php

      Five Israelis Admit to "Documenting" 9/11 http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisr

      Governments ADMIT They Carry Out False Flag Terror http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=2010021

  • http://www.patriotsquestion911.com AlanMiller

    David Ray Griffin is not alone in questioning the official account of 9/11. In addition to more than 1,000 architects and engineers who have petitioned Congress for a new investigation of 9/11 (www.ae911truth.org), many senior veterans of the U.S. Intelligence Services also do not believe the official account of 9/11.

    – William Christison, Former Director of Regional and Political Analysis, CIA, "The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them. A plane did not hit Building 7 of the Center, which also collapsed. All three were most probably destroyed by controlled demolition charges placed in the buildings before 9/11."

    – Maj. Gen. Albert Stubblebine, Former Commanding General US Army Intelligence, regarding the WTC Towers, "They didn't fall down because airplanes hit them. They fell down because of explosives went off inside. Demolition."

    – Terrell Arnold, Former Deputy Director of Counter-terrorism, US State Dept., "I'm not satisfied by the notion that planes hitting buildings constructed as these would have caused them to collapse. The last building to fall was not even attacked. … The chances of two buildings of that height and structure merely collapsing in their own footprint are extremely slim."

    – Ray McGovern, Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, "I think at simplest terms, there’s a cover-up. The 9/11 report is a joke." (NIEs are the consensus report of all US Intelligence Services and according to the CIA "are the Intelligence Community’s most authoritative written judgments on national security issues.")

    For more information, seehttp://www.PatriotsQuestion911.com

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jaafar_1946 Jaafar_1946

      Nobody ever claimed that Griffin was "alone." The only important claim is that he is clinically insane.

      Remember the Millerites! (19th century America) There were thousands of them, too. They all went up to the mountaintops to await the End of the World and the Second Coming. A lot of them sold everything.

      Came the dawn, and they turned themselves into Seventh-Day Adventists.

    • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

      Yes, I agree. All political dissidents are clinically insane. David Ray Griffin and other members of the 9/11 Truth Movement believe a bunch of crazy stuff. They believe that explosive charges can blow up buildings and other structures. What will we hear next? That water will wet us and fire will burn. Crazy!

      • http://woodedpaths.blogspot.com/ DWPittelli

        I suppose no one can positively disprove CIA involvement. But the talk of explosives charges is silly, and has never been part of a coherent Truther explanation of the events of 9/11, as a whole. I saw the second airplane live, flying into the WTC. And four airplanes did indeed crash (or disappear, even under Truther theories), with all passengers dead or missing.

        Why did the CIA engage in such an elaborate plan, requiring certainly dozens of explosives technicians to carry bombs into 3 buildings? If the cover story was that airplanes smashed into the buildings, and the airplanes were indeed hijacked (as we know from passenger cell calls), why not just use the airplanes to carry out the mission in accordance with the cover story? Wouldn't that be a lot less risky than hoping: 1) no one would be caught planting explosives; 2) no one would find wires or detonators related to the explosion; 3) no airplane would miss its target or be diverted, and none of the suicidal hijackers would chicken out or be overpowered, leading to an intact target building full of explosives; 4) None of the dozens (probably scores) of conspirators would ever talk of it. Even if the CIA were capable of this level of evil, they would not hatch such a stupidly elaborate and fragile conspiracy.

  • Chezwick

    Well folks, we can see from Alan Miller's comments above that 'trooferism' is so pervasive that even here at FPM there are believers. The main objective of these groups is the demonization of America, the de-legitimizing of our self-defense, and the exoneration of the actual perpetrators.

    The idea that US intelligence agents went into both towers and effectively (and secretly) rigged all 110 floors with high explosives is as incredulous as anything I've ever heard. Furthermore, the idea that Bush and Cheney were so demonic as to murder 3000 of their fellow countrymen and shave a trillion dollars off of our GDP so they could – someday in the dim future – build an oil pipeline in Afghanistan, is so absurd as to be laughable.

    God help this country when educated people have become so jaded that they'll believe anything.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/temarch temarch

      How right you are. People can become educated and still not be able to think logically. Just learning a bunch of facts (or fiction) doesn't necessarily translate into a reasoned human being.

      It never dawns on them what an intrusive effort it would have been to invade several buildings full of employees for weeks on end, cut into all the walls on every floor to expose all of the support beams, torch a slit across the web of each beam, weld on brackets for attaching each specially engineered cutting explosive charge and stringing wire from each to a central control panel while telling all employees to ignore them and go on with their work. Nothing to see here.

      These people couldn't imagine the various steps required to change a light bulb let alone the steps required to implode a building. That is why they can accept such an absurd premise.

      • TruthLiesHere

        If you knew the first thing about demolishing a building using high-temperature cutter charges such as thermite, HMX or RDX, used routinely to melt/cut/demolish steel, you'd be aware that none of the intrusions you mentioned would be necessary. The work could even have been done after-hours or as far back as when the buildings were initially built.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/GaryRumain Gary Rumain

      Of course its absurd. There's no oil in Afghanistan. Plenty of arselifters though.

    • Troof on the Hoof

      The only objective of 911 Truthers is truth. Put up or shut up.
      These things are certain: Two planes did not knock down three buildings. The buildings did not burn long enough for fire to damage the steel structure. The collapse caused pulverization in excess of what would be expected by gravitational energy. The towers fell at near free fall speed. If Rumsfeld and Cheney hadn’t gone to work that day, the planes would have been intercepted within 12 minutes..

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/temarch temarch

        Wind at that height blowing on burning jet fuel is no different than the blacksmith's bellows blowing on burning coals which causes steel to glow red hot and become very flexable and weak due to it's temperature dependent property of plasticity. Just blow on a camp fire and see the tremendous increase in heat. Never worked with steel, have you? I've bent much steel by hand using a torch and a vice and it would yield faster being loaded with thousands upon thousands of tons of upper floors on it.

        • Troof on the Hoof

          Actually, I'm a journeyman metal model maker. If you try to cut a piece of 4-inch steel with an acetylene torch, depending on its length, you will spend most of an hour heating it up before you can even make the cut. That's because steel is a natural heat sink. It carries the heat away from its source. If the fires had burned uncontrollably for days on end (and I mean like a bonfire) I could see a collapse from fire damage. In that event the structure would have sagged and twisted and fallen gradually over the course of many hours.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/temarch temarch

            Well, I started out as a machinists apprentice, worked for 10 years as a machinist, and started into engineering and design of special machinery in 1973. I've both work on and designed machines as small as table top size to giants as big as 1500 ft long by 50 ft wide and 75 ft hign. As for cutting a 4 inch piece of steel with an acetylene torch, I have cut many pieces of large steel and it takes only a few minuets to start a puddle of molten metal and then hit the oxygen lever to start the burn which does the cut. I am also a certified welder having been to school to learn.

          • Troof on the Hoof

            Then you should know better than to think that the collapse was the result of fire. It would take you longer to cut through a 4 inch piece of steel with a 2000+ degree torch than it took for a kerosene fire to weeken and fell a 110 story building. 58 minutes to heat 100,000 tons of structural steel to its yield point. Just be honest. The bowels of hell would have a tough time heating up that much steel that fast.

          • Chezwick

            The steel didn't have to melt…only weaken sufficiently for the structure to buckle, releasing the kinetic energy to collapse the tower. This is why Tower 1, though hit more than a half hour before tower 2, collapsed AFTER tower 2. Because Tower 2 was hit much lower than Tower 1, thus placing much more stress on the damaged structure from the weight of the upper floors.

            I feel sorry for you. I'll bet you also think the holocaust was a fraud, that Islam is peace, and that Nostradamus was clairvoyant.

          • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

            But what evidence do you have that the steel even weakened sufficiently? Other buildings have burned longer and hotter without causing the destruction we observed on 9/11.

          • TruthLiesHere

            I'm not sure about Nostradamus, but the Holohoax certainly has been blown way out of proportion, as well as alleged Islamic terror.

            The largest mass murder in history was the Ukrainian Holocaust (Holodomor) whereby Stalin's own estimates, 10 million Ukrainians died. But you likely weren't aware of that factoid, were you? Now that you know the truth, do you find it makes you uncomfortable? It has a habit of doing that to those who would rather swallow lies.

            I'm sorry but only a complete fool would believe that a race of over a billion people are all warmongers and terrorists because of the alleged actions of a few. That would be akin to believing all Italians are part of the Mafia, or that all Christians are war criminals because of George Bush's illegal/immoral war, or that all Jews were responsible for 9/11.

            Israel did 9/11 – All the Proof in the World! http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php

            Perhaps you should take this test: http://www.naturalnews.com/gullibility.html

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stephen_Brady Stephen_Brady

        The objective of the 911 Truthers is not truth. It is a political objective, designed to do as much harm to the political Right as possible.

        As a young man, I used to believe in the Kennedy Assassination conspiracies. That is, I believed in them until two things happened.

        First, I bought an Italian Carcano rifle, and was assisted in an experiment by other people whose expertise was in high-speed photography. Then, after an intense period on the range, and development of muscle memory, I shot at three one-gallon jugs of water from the same range and height as Oswald. In multiple attempts, I was able to fire three rounds in two seconds, and the cameras showed that a bullet striking the jugs from above and behind caused the water in them to leap backwards, instead of forwards. It's counterintuitive, but it's also physics.

        Second, the motive for the assassination just never was established to my satisfaction.

        Troof, get a good job, marry a nice girl, have lots of kids, and get a life.

        • TruthLiesHere

          Did you ever get a bullet to perform the magic feat that the one that shot JFK and Governor Connally did? It passed through Kennedy and through the back, ribs, right wrist, and left leg of Connally. Quite an amazing feat, don't you think? The governor and his wife didn't buy it though. They believed that two bullets had struck the president and that a third and separate bullet had wounded the governor.

          In 1997, a poll conducted by the University of Ohio revealed that 51% of Americans dismissed the "magic bullet" theory. 20% believed federal government agents killed Kennedy. Another 33% felt that a conspiracy was "somewhat likely." Looks like you're in the minority.

          As for motives to assassinate JFK, there were no shortage of reasons: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/Who_Killed_

          "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial." — Assistant Attorney Nicholas Katzenbach, November 25 1963.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jaafar_1946 Jaafar_1946

        Get thee to a psychiatrist, and quickly.

    • infidel

      our government could never keep a secret that big,with all the people that would need to be involved.what happened to all the people on the flights?what about the terrorists admitting responsibility? the phone calls?steel is made from the heat,do you know how hot jet fuel burns?

      • Troof on the Hoof

        Jet-A is the fuel. It is about the same as kerosene if you have a sustained flame. But its flash point is 128 degrees (and i can't remember if that was C or F) but in any event it sure made a photogenic fire ball.

        What terrorist admitted responsibility? The one we waterboarded 78 times?

        I'm not sure phone calls were even possible… but they sure were tear-jerky…

        • Troof on the Hoof

          Oh and who said it was the government? I think Cheney has secrets no one – not even the Devil will ever know.

          • Chezwick

            Yes, Cheney has a secret army at his disposal to do his evil bidding…he's hijacked the FBI, the CIA and the Book-of-the-month club.

            My God, isn't it time to grow up?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stephen_Brady Stephen_Brady

            Doesn't Cheney, Rush, Satan, Dracula, and Hannibal Lector regularly preside over RNC meetings?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jaafar_1946 Jaafar_1946

          You're talking about TRUTH and you can't be bothered with the difference between Centigrade and Fahrenheit?

          How could the terrorists admit anything, when they were all dead?

          You're not even sure about cell phones, but you ARE sure about the lame idea that the President of the United States attacked his own country.

  • 9-11 Infidel

    You know, I hear that it costs about 11,000.00 a year to educate a kid in the Public School system. "As absurd as it sounds, if we don't improve our education system, I can foresee some time in the future when we could wind up with members of Congress who confuse the Declaration of Independence with the U.S. Constitution and who actually believe that if you put 8,000 Marines and their families on Guam, you'd run the risk of capsizing the island,." You can include the tin-foil hat-wearing troofers in that mix.

  • AntiPsycho

    What I find incredulous are the massive number of unscientific crackpot lunatics that believe in conspiracy theories that involve violating the laws of physics.

    NIST says WTC7 came down due to fire damage but they admit there was a period of 2.25 seconds when the building was in free fall. The collapse was symmetrical. This means the resisting structure on each floor was removed simultaneously floor by floor for eight stories. The 58 perimeter columns and 25 massive core columns that should have provided resistance to the falling mass provided none at all. Since we know that normal office fires causes gradual weakening of steel not explosive removal, NIST's explanation violates the (conservation) laws of physics and is therefore false.

    In science the simplest explanation that best explains the facts should prevail. Crackpot pseudoscience OTOH involves overly complex physics-defying explanations that produce far more questions than answers. 9/11 was not only a massive human tragedy but a brutal assault on science as well.

  • cochavi1

    I do not agree with Griffin's conclusions about 'American evil' or his one-world-government view. Ironically, most of the 'Truthers' are opposed to one-world government, and many are also viciously anti-Jewish, believing that a Rothschild Banker gave the order to cause 911.

    Regardless, I did read Griffin's book about the collapse of WTC7. I did not do so as a 'Truther', but as someone who had seen videos of the collapse. It is also true that the NIST report admitted over two seconds of free fall.

    My conclusions from reading Griffin's book is that his evidence is somewhat selective, and his choice of sources also so. At the same time, he argues the scientific issues on the substance. Of course, I doubt he includes all the relevant data points. I have not read the NIST report and won't be doing so, but if his quotes from it and its Chairman are accurate, then their analysis of the collapse of WTC7 is not scientific.

    The problem with an article such as this is that it doesn't attack Griffin's analysis on the basis of facts, nor attempt to justify NIST. It basically says he must be wrong because of his philosophical or religious beliefs and his associations.

    • Troof on the Hoof

      "believing that a Rothschild Banker gave the order to cause 911" does not make one viciously anti-Jewish. shalom

  • Troof on the Hoof

    I just wonder why we spent $40,000,000 to find a stain on monica's dress, and like $600,000 to investigate 911. It is the most important event in the lives of millions of people, including hundreds of thousands of us. What's wrong with a new independent investigation? Why not at least consider the possibility that there was more to it than the made-for-TV version? Not even the 911 commissioners stand behing the 911 commissions report. It was underfunded and incomplete. We can't afford to be wrong about this.

  • brimp

    It took me a long time to objectively look at the competing conspiracy theories on 9/11. The official conspiracy theory is more ridiculous than the 'crazy' conspiracy theories. At one time it was only crazy people who believed that JFK wasn't killed by Oswald alone. The gulf of Tonkin and the explosion on the Maine shows that the United States government is not above performing 'false flag operations' to get the country moving in the directions that the leaders want. I have some concerns that a crazy person is going to negatively impact my life. My concerns that a Muslim will negatively impact my life is about 100 times greater. But I'm far more concerned that the US government will do something to negatively impact my life.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

      You needed much more time, as you are remarkably stupid. Nobody sane believes that the explosion in the boiler room of the USS Maine was a false flag attack. Nothing was staged in the Gulf of Tonkin. Tired seamen operating in rough weather overreacted to blips on a radar screen. LBJ, who famously remarked that "those dumb sons-of-bitches must have been shooting at flying fish," cynically exploited the confusion to ram through Congress legislation he desired. A mountain of evidence shows that Oswald killed JFK and he acted alone. The mainstream account of the jihadist attacks of 9/11/01 is supported by ALL the physical evidence and ALL the real science. Apologists for the Islamist terrorists have relied exclusively on bogus science, distorted quotes, and a blizzard of outright lies to promote their pernicious nonsense. They have yet to produce a shred of evidence that can stand the slightest scrutiny.

      • brimp

        For years I resisted looking at the evidence because the ramifications government involvement in 9/11 are so disturbing that it was easier to ignore the facts. I will not call you stupid for beliefs. To classify that those who come to a different conclusion than you have reached are apologists for Islamists is about as silly as the Democrats claiming the tea parties are racists. If you need to ignore facts to help you live a happier life then go for it. Just be aware that there are thoughtful people are not so intimidated to think the unthinkable.

        • pomeroo

          You keep alluding to the "facts" that rationalists ignore, but there are NO facts that support these conspiracy theories–NONE. Every specific claim made by David Ray Grifter, Richard Gage, Jesse Ventura, James Fetzer, and other cranks is PROVABLY WRONG.
          You are deliberately vague because you are conspicuously devoid of evidence.

          • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

            David Chandler showed that WTC7 did enter free-fall for 2.5 seconds. NIST agreed, but placed the free-fall descent at 2.25 seconds.

  • able danger

    Don't have to be a scientist nor a engineer to realize certain truths.
    Multiple war games similar to the actual 9/11 tragedy were carried out that day.
    No flight recorders were ever "officially" found, yet one of the accused terrorists passports was?
    There was molten steel burning for weeks after the event at the WTC site.
    Should we assume the reported insider trading of that day was coincedental?
    Standard procedures for hi-jacked airplanes were totally ignored, yet no one held accountable.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

      Your canard regarding the war games was exposed here:

      Several flight recorders WERE found.

      The molten metal that "cooked" for weeks under the rubble pile was not steel. In any case, this phenomenon is not related to controlled demolition.

      The insider trading canard is discussed here:

      No standard procedures for hijacked flights were ignored.

      Your "certain truths" are neither certain nor true.

  • Dubious Gravity

    What relevance Griffin's Faith has in his analysis of events during and after 9/11, beats me! This "article" is just another cheap attempt at disparagement. And then there are the comments, which seem more concerned with name-calling rather than any rational counter-arguments… there's a few golden ones though such as "Just blow on a camp fire and see the tremendous increase in heat". Too many metal bending cub scouts here…

    • davarino

      Where is Alex Jones when you need him?

  • traeh

    I read a long and detailed rebuttal by Popular Mechanics of every claim made by the so-called Truthers.

    The impression one comes away with is that it doesn't matter what counter-evidence one shows the Truthers. Like any irrational conspiracy theorist, every bit of counter-evidence against the conspiracy is automatically converted into just more proof of the conspiracy.

    There is a similar phenomenon with some religions. When a prophecy is made, and does not come true, the adherents, rather than doubting the religion, become all the more convinced of it.

    In fact, there is a real conspiracy, but it's not one that most of the Truthers know about. A number of international enemies of the American agenda banded together to start the Truthers conspiracy and pull the wool over the eyes of as many people as possible to make them think the American government itself did the foul deed on 9/11. (Just kidding…Not….Not not….Not not not…..Not not not not…how many nots is that?)

    • brimp

      You have a point here. Some people hold the belief that Bush/Cheney conspired to cause 9/11 as an article of faith. Others, including yourself, hold the belief that the U.S. government was not involved in the planning as an article of faith. I've looked at the Popular Mechanics arguments and find them lacking. The physical evidence indicates that the official story is false. But if it is false, then who created the official story and why? I am not convinced that the White house caused 9/11 but their story as so many holes in it that it is laughable.

    • Troof on the Hoof

      Popular Mechanics claimed the pancake theory. Not even NIST agrees with that. Why do you have to call us irrational? What makes you value Pop Mech over Griffin, Stephen Jones, Architects & Engineers for Truth? What's wrong with an independent investigation? Truthers just want the truth. We cannot afford to be wrong. We are killing people over this. A second thorough look is only fair. There are too many unanswered questions. Why fight an independent investigation? Rationality would say that the truth will be true no matter how many times you check.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Tar_n_Feathers Tar_n_Feathers

    It's moments like these that I miss the Great Pumpkin–the only true conspiracy worth believing.

  • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

    In general, it is near impossible to prove anything beyond one's direct and immediate perception to individuals preprocessed in a certain school of (mis-)education. Why? Because the raw information and misinformation abound, yet it is very difficult to set any formal rules how to sort it out – unless one is deeply proficient in the respective hard science. That is why things like "Holocaust denial", the "Moon landing denial", or the "9/11 internal job" "theories" are so persistent in certain social strata.

    See here more:

    • AntiPsycho

      The (conservation) laws of physics are taught in high school. That information is all you need to know the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 (where 19 pseudo-Islamic terrorists armed only with boxcutters and basing their operations from caves, conspired to ram airplanes into buildings by bypassing the worlds most advanced military defense system) is a stinking pile of crackpot idiocy believable only by those devoid of any critical thinking skills.

  • http://www.infowars.com SomeDude

    The first line of this gives away the stupidity of the author…

    "Infamous 9-11 conspiracy theorist David Ray Griffin, whose books insist the Bush Administration and not al Qaeda blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon…"

    Um… if you think al Qaeda did it then YOU are a conspiracy theorist too… Stupid.

    Btw, we created al Qaeda anyway (by we I mean the CIA). Brezinski (see Carter Administration) brags about the fact that the US (via himself) created al Qaeda…

    So yeah, 9-11 was an inside job, just fyi :)

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

      It's 2010 and you're still peddling crapola that was thoroughly debunked five years ago. No, the CIA did not "create" al Qaeda, and Brzezinski does not make such a cliam. The CIA provided funds and weapons to Afghani mujahideen; the group bin Laden worked with used Saudi sources and rejected cooperation with Americans.

      No, 9/11 was most definitely NOT an inside job. These conspiracy theories are the dumbest, most fact-free fantasies ever fabricated by America-hating ignoramuses.

  • Chezwick

    My God…from these comments, one can only derive that the far right is as lunatic and paranoid as the far left.

    There were no detonations on one floor after the next, resulting in a perfectly synchronized collapse….just the building momentum of kinetic energy released from the collapsing upper floors, pancaking one floor to the next.

    Sometimes the simple truth is much more plausible than a fantastic lie. The planes brought down the towers, not tons of explosives secretly planted on all 110 floors of each tower over a period of months by secret agents….with no one ever noticing a thing.

    Bin Ladin's claim of responsibility must mean he was part of the government conspiracy too, eh folks?

    • brimp

      People on the Right think that people on the Left are nitwits who are unable to think for themselves and who must follow the thoughts their 'experts'. For the most part, I agree with this assessment. In recent years, anyone, even on the Right, who tries to evaluate the meaning of current events is criticized as being mentally ill. Once I saw that a plane with a 200+ foot wingspan that fit in a 15 foot hole, I no longer believed the experts. The 18,000 pound titanium/steel engines that smashed into the pentagon at 500+mph disintegrated while not breaking the windows of the pentagon where they would have hit. This does not make any sense. Perhaps I am a lunatic for believing my own eyes rather that the 'experts'.

      • Chezwick

        I had a neighbor who was working at a car dealership in Crystal city Va in 2001. He and all of his co-workers witnessed the plane fly by at low altitude moments before it struck the Pentagon. But I guess they're all part of the conspiracy, eh?

        • Fred Wolters

          Then you cannot fail to find these video interviews with eyewitness to the Pentagon attack interesting:

          • brimp

            Thank you. I did find these interviews interesting.

    • AntiPsycho

      In free fall all gravitational potential energy is used up in attaining free fall. There is no energy left over to remove that massive support structure that should resist the building's fall. The official crackpot conspiracy theory violates the laws of physics.

      • Chezwick

        Sorry to burst your bubble, but these huge 747s that crashed into the Towers at full speed compromised the structural integrity of the Towers…and the weight of the upper floors eventually buckled the weakened girders, releasing the kinetic energy that collapsed the Towers. This is why Tower 1 took longer to collapse than Tower 2, even though it was struck much earlier…because Tower 2 was struck much lower, leaving the additional weight of many more upper floors facilitated the collapse, sooner than later.

        • AntiPsycho

          Prove it. Both NIST and FEMA admitted that the planes in fact did not compromise the structural integrity of the Towers. Note that NIST does not even explain how the towers collapsed. They just explain how collapse was initiated. That is very telling to rational people. NIST also does not explain where the massive extra energy came from that pulverized all the concrete and office contents to powder or how 500 ton pieces of steel were ejected horizontally and embedded into nearby buildings up to 500 feet away. Check your physics book, gravity is a vertical force.

          • davarino

            Yes gravity is a vertical force. Are you saying that because gravity is a vertical force that it is not the force that causes children to go down slides? Slides are not vertical. Are you saying that the callapse of a building causes everything to go down vertically? Nothing gets ejected out horizontally. You cant imagine parts of the structure snapping and being eject sideways?

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

            You know nothing about physics and, as a typical twoofer, are proud of your ignorance. NIST, in a report you refuse to read, observed that when global collapse ensued, nothing could arrest it. The impacts of the planes severed external and core columns, dislodged fireproofing, and started massive fires. When shifting loads and fire-weakened steel, as evidenced by the inward bowing of external columns seen on all the videos, caused the floor trusses to fail, the buildings collapsed.

  • http://historyscoper.angelfire.com/tlwislam.html Historyscoper

    I don't buy the 911 Truther Movement. See why at

  • Dubious Gravity

    @Cheswick: they were so perfect (the 3 collapses) that it has never happened before and certainly not since. I was in Madrid in 2005 when the Windsor Tower burnt for over 24hours. We watched it from across the road. An inferno. But we still had a skeletal steel structure in place afterward. I don't stand by too many "conspiracies" as you term them, and in regards to 9/11 a lot of them I feel are based on conjecture, but the way those 3 buildings came down….well it just needs further investigation. Is that so wrong?

    • Chezwick

      Read my reply to antipsycho.

  • Dubious Gravity

    Sorry CheZwick! Typo :-(

  • http://www.juscogens.org Elias Davidsson

    The US government has made the following claims regarding 9/11:
    (a) That 19 Arab terrorists hijacked four aircraft
    (b) That four passenger aircraft crashed at the known landmarks
    (c) That Osama bin Laden admitted his role in 9/11

    Yet what no one of the abovementioned bloggers mentioned are the following facts:
    (a) The US government has not produced any proof, whatsoever, that the 19 Arab "terrorists" named and shamed by the FBI had actually boarded any of the aircraft that allegedly crashed on 9/11. The US government has accused individuals of mass murder without producing even a shred of evidence that they participated in the crime, let alone that they were at the scene of the crime
    (b) The US government, in the guise of the FBI, has failed to produce any evidence – whatsoever – that the aircraft that allegedly crashed at the known landmarks on 9/11 were those actually leaving the airports with passengers and crew, nor were the debris identified as belonging to these aircraft
    (c) While pounding on Osama bin Laden and referring to his repeated statements, the FBI stated in June 2006 – after someone found it bizarre that the FBI website on Osama does not mention 9/11 – that the agency did not have any evidence to link him to 9/11. Period.

    In addition, the US government tried its best to prevent an official inquiry of 9/11 and then attempted to curtail and influence the work of the 9/11 Commission, by allocating to it too little money, too short time and ensuring that it will white-wash the administration.

    Even without adducing the vast evidence that suggests the WTC buildings were demolished by explosives, and without adducing the fact that the main beneficiary of 9/11 was neither Muslims nor Islamic countries, but the US government and its military, it cannot be disputed that the US government failed to prove its outrageous claims against 19 innocent men (the alleged hijackers), against Osama bin Laden and its duty to investigate in good faith the largest crime committed on US soil.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

      The America-hating fraud Elias Davidsson threw a screeching hissy fit and fled from the far-left talk radio show CLOUT back in May 2008 when I exposed his lies about the passenger manifests. He pretends that various lists of VICTIMS, e.g., CNN's, are passenger manifests. Perpetrators are, of course, not victims, so the decison was made to omit their names. The actual manifests enabled the major dailies to publish diagrams showing the seating positions of the hijackers within days of the attacks.

      The fantasist claim that Osama is not wanted by the FBI for the 9/11 attacks is another very silly falsehood peddled by charlatans:

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

      Note Davidsson's dishonest attempt to conflate the work of the 9/11 Commission, a politicized circus convened to provide a timeline and answer questions commonly asked by victims' families, with the actual investigation that established the identities of the hijackers–an unprecedentedly massive multi-agency effort that involved 7,000 agents from the FBI alone. The mendacious Davidsson pretends, on the one hand, that the FBI does not hold Osama responsible for the atrocities of 9/11, while on the other, thousands of agents have covered-up a monstrous conspiracy. He ignores inconvenient details such as the fact that NONE of the thousands of people complicit in his imaginary conspiracy have ever leaked ANYTHING. Yes, the laws of probability insist that if every single one of the evildoers has a 99% probability of never spilling the beans, the secret will nevertheless be exposed, oh, ALL the time.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

      Davidsson's "vast evidence" for explosives in the WTC complex turns out to be NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER. There is absolutely no physical evidence hinting at the use of explosives on 9/11–no detonator cord, no chemical signatures of shaped charges on recovered steel, no seismic signals, no sufferers of barotrauma, no broken windows in nearby buildings, and NO AUDIO EVIDENCE OF THE SERIES OF NEAR-SIMULTANEOUS BLASTS FOLLOWED IMMEDIATELY BY THE COLLAPSE OF THE STRUCTRE THAT CHARACTERIZES CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. (Things blow up in office fires. Random explosions do not suggest explosives.)
      There is a reason why NO demolition professionals (sorry, not Danny Jowenko either) swallow the fantasist snake oil.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

      The liar Davidsson pretends that there is a controversy surrounding the identities of the planes that were hijacked on 9/11. United and American airlines each reported losing two planes that day. Those planes were tracked by radar to their crash sites. Humans remains of the passengers and crews were found at those sites and identified by DNA testing. Abundant aircraft wreckage was also found. Perhaps Davidsson would care to show an instance where serial-numbered parts played a role in determining the identity of a crashed commercial airliner.

      The agenda-driven charlatans who flog insane, preposterous theses never pause to confront their army of critics. Snake oil salesman David Ray Grifter is notorious for refusing to debate under any conditions, preferring the far safer approach of churning out books that are interchangeable and utterly worthless. The grotesquely misnamed "Truth" movement is a farrago of lies and baseless myths.

      • Chezwick

        Thanks for the very effective refutation of this dissimulator.

        I swear, my personal opinion is that practically every truther – and there are literally millions – is the victim of some sort of psychopathology…from mild paranoia to full-blown pathological hatred. At the very least, it is a demonstration of an incredible naivety.

    • Unibrowser

      I thought about replying to this post, but my mother told me never to make fun of the mentally handicap kids.

  • dave

    What is this, "Global Democracy?" Sounds familiar. hmm…

  • Unibrowser

    Somebody has to ride the short bus.

  • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

    Currently, Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth has over 1,000 signatories demanding a real investigation into the 9/11 attacks. The signatories are comprised of architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, aerospace engineers, electrical engineers, chemical engineers, industrial engineers, material engineers etc. Their membership also includes individuals who have expertise in specific areas, such as Scott Grainger, a forensic fire protection engineer.

    I would like to know the number of architects and engineers who have gone on record stating that they specifically agree with NIST and Bazant.

  • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

    traeh: "I read a long and detailed rebuttal by Popular Mechanics of every claim made by the so-called Truthers."

    The Popular Mechanics book and magazine article were pretty poor. It was comparable to an 8th grade book report. Many of its conclusions are no longer considered valid by the promoters of the official story.

    chezwick: "Bin Ladin's claim of responsibility must mean he was part of the government conspiracy too, eh folks?"

    Then why is bin Laden not listed for being wanted for the 9/11 attacks? The FBI page devoted to bin Laden only mentions that embassy bombing in Kenya and Tanzania.

    Chezwick: "…both concluded that the impacts of jets at high speeds in combination with subsequent fires caused the collapse of both Towers."

    This is not the case. The NIST investigation stops at what they term "collapse initiation." The actual destruction of the towers is not analyzed. NIST admitted that they were unable to provide a full explanation for the complete collapse.

    The Truth marches on…

  • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

    Chezwick: "Meanwhile, after an exhaustive investigation involving 7000 agents, the FBI concluded that Al Qaeda WAS responsible for 9-11. "

    Really? It sounds like you are referring to the FBI's PENTTBOM investigation.

    “The hijackers also left no paper trail. In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper – in the U.S. or in Afghanistan – that mentioned any aspect of the September 11th plot.”
    Robert Mueller, Director of the FBI

    An exhaustive investigation that doesn't turn up any evidence would imply they were digging in the wrong place.

  • Chezwick

    This controlled demolition hypothesis was rejected by the National @Tanabear

    Institute of Standards and Technology and by the American Society of Civil Engineers, who, after their research, both concluded that the impacts of jets at high speeds in combination with subsequent fires caused the collapse of both Towers. I guess that makes them part of the conspiracy, eh?

    • brimp

      The global warming scam has many government agencies, think tanks, corporations, professors, and media people as proponents. Are all these people part of the scam? No. Some are. Most are people who hold the man made global warming hypothesis as an article of faith. They are unwilling, or unable, to look at the phenomenon objectively. If anyone other than a bunch of crazy Muslims were involved in September 11 then we would have to reevaluate everything we 'know' about government. The thought of this is so painful that intelligent people are unable to analyze the events without the idea that governments could not possibly be involved with the planning, execution, and cover-up of these events. The global warming crowd says that anyone challenging their dogma must be being paid by the oil companies because it is impossible for them to believe that any sane person can believe such heretical thoughts.

      There are similarities between global warming an 9/11. Once one doubts the governments story, the evidence accumulates so it becomes obvious that the official story is ridiculous. If one never doubts the official story, then it is easy to think that those who do doubt are crazy.

  • Chezwick


    This controlled demolition hypothesis was rejected by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and by the American Society of Civil Engineers, who, after their research, both concluded that the impacts of jets at high speeds in combination with subsequent fires caused the collapse of both Towers. I guess that makes them part of the conspiracy, eh?

    Meanwhile, after an exhaustive investigation involving 7000 agents, the FBI concluded that Al Qaeda WAS responsible for 9-11.

  • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

    It is preposterous to wave your amateur knowledge of Physics in attempt to describe a complicate reality while no ends meet in your bigger picture.

    Instead of examining numerous questionable direct facts or speculations flooding the Internet, consider the indirect effects of a higher level, all being self evident.

    Like in criminal justice, when confronting a scene of a terrible crime, in order to prosecute and indict a culprit, not only do you have to demonstrate direct links between the culprit and the crime. You must also produce a credible explanation of his motives and goals: especially in a situation with scarce direct evidence.

    Discuss (rebuff) the specific 11 obvious points posted here and then get back.

    • AntiPsycho

      I know the elementary high school physics required to understand what I am talking about. You don't because you are unable to deal with it. Instead of detailing what is wrong with my physics you merely spout attacks in a sophomoric attempt to redirect and confuse.

      In science one observation that does not agree with a theory means the theory is wrong. Those that continue to believe that such a theory is correct are hyper-irrational raving unscientific tin foil hat-wearing crackpot morons.

      • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

        It's only in mathematics one counter-example suffices to rebuff a wrong hypothesis. In the real life, in Physics and technology models happen to be so complicate, that some data pieces (even if obtained honestly) may seem controversial. More studies, measurements and experiments then are performed to eliminate controversies. In many complex physical scenes you may notice some counter-intuitive phenomenon: that is why there is a notion "Paradox" in the science (usually resolvable via more measurements and experiments). And that is why some may find something paradoxical say in Lunar landing…

        • http://www.resonoelusono.com/NaturalBornCitizen.htm Alexander Gofen

          And yes, I did look into a list of some the "9/11 internal job" theory paradoxes, and into the explanations of their adherents and opponents of this theory. And I am quite satisfied with the reasoning of the opponents – on the level of basic science and brief qualitative considerations. (Go and do quantitative models, read thick volumes or reports, and spend the rest of your life to deal with it professionally in-depth). That is if to deal with low level data in depth.

          Fortunately, the "9/11 internal job" theory breaks apart because of inconsistency in its consequences, motives and crime goals.

          See here more: http://www.resonoelusono.com/IndirectYetSolid.htm

          Finally, you are very mistaken Re. my educational level (easily verifiable via search).

  • JackSamwell

    , Griffin explained he favors the end of nation states in favor of “global democracy.” Under this new international regime, “We could get rid of war. We don’t have money for health care or ecological crisis. Take money out of the system and militarism out of the system.”

    This is a complete non sequitur. This is precisely the aim of the govts perpetrating false flag events! The whole purpose behind false flag terror is to create a fear induced environment which will enable WORLD GOVERNMENT agendas to be promoted. The people he is exposing are in favor of world government . It's like condemning police state tactics in nazi Germany and then saying this can be solved with fascism.

    Griffin is either an idiot or a shill for the the new world governance crowd.

  • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com/ tanabear

    Yes, NIST and FEMA did not support the controlled demolition hypothesis. However, they were still unable to explain the complete destruction of either WTC1,2 within the confines of the official story. That is why NIST stops at "collapse initiation."

    That doesn't necessarily make them part of the conspiracy, only part of the cover up.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

      Stop peddling these ancient lies. Nobody in his right mind thinks that NIST was "unable to explain the complete destruction of either WTC 1 [or] 2." You are spouting complete nonsense: NIST explained it very comprehensively, with 10,000 pages of graphs, diagrams, tables, photos, computer simulations, calculations, and commentary. You have obviously read none of these reports.

      • Pavlovian Dogcatcher

        Only a crackpot could claim NIST explained the complete destruction of the towers, as even NIST confessed (underlined near the top of p, 4) that they "are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse." In fact, that 10,000 page Big Lie NIST produced only goes so far as to detail a proposed "collapse initiation", while spending less than a page on waving their hands at the total demolition of the towers, which the impact damage and fires don't even come close to properly accounting for. Unfortunately, many are far to out of their goads to come to terms with such facts, and insist on defending NIST's pseudoscientific cover-up instead.

        • Pavlovian Dogcatcher

          As my HTML link was blocked, I'll try it like this:

        • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

          Wrong. It is impossible to model such a chaotic event as the actual collapse. Once the global collapse began, nothing could conceivably arrest it. Please stop wasting our time with your puerile lies. You have read nothing but worthless tripe churned out by fools and charlatans.


          • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

            NIST stated, "We are Unable to Provide a Full Explanation of the Total Collapse." in a response to a Request for Correction issued by members of the 9/11 Truth Movement. If it is impossible to model such a chaotic event, then you have no basis for saying that nothing could stop it. How do you know this if it is impossible to model? Your statement is merely a baseless assertion with no evidence to support it.

            Apparently, "ancient lies" are true statements that contradict government propaganda.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

            Stop lying. NIST stated nothing of the sort. NIST DID state that once the global collapse ensued, nothing could arrest it. It is impossible to model precisely millions of discrete events–what chair on the 84th floor hit what desk; what copier blew up when the ceiling fell on it, etc. You understand this–you really do. EVERYBODY understands this.
            Like other conspiracy liars, you pretend to criticize a technical report that you are unwilling or unable to read.

          • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

            Yes they did. Here:http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2007/NI

            The issue is that if NIST didn't even model the collapse, then they have no basis for saying that once global collapse ensued nothing could arrest, What evidence is that statement based on?

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

            To repeat, it is not possible to model such a chaotic event as the collapse of a large building. NIST's reply to the frivolous issues raised by Steven Jones, Kevin Ryan, and other charlatans clearly states that analysis was carried to the point of collapse initiation. The remaining floors could not have resisted the falling mass of the collapsing floors.

          • Pavlovian Dogcatcher

            Again, it's impossible to even construct a simplified model to provide any semblance of experimental validation for the notion that "the remaining floors could not have resisted the falling mass of the collapsing floors", because that isn't even even close to being physically possible. While you either lack the technical background or the emotional fortitude to deal with such painful realities, that does nothing to change the fact that the official story is nothing but pseudoscientific nonsense which utterly fails to pass the test of reproducibility. Hence the reason you are left retorting to my appeal to that fundamental principle of the scientific method with nothing more than vacant appeals to authority, stating the obvious in caps, and other such handwaving in defense of your faith in a crackpot conspiracy theory which has been perpetuated to cover up whatever actually happened on 9/11.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

            Stop the nonsense. The mass of three collapsing floors will crush the floor below. What do you suppose happens when twenty or thirty floors fall on top of the floor below? You are science-illiterate. You are not competent to to criticize real structural engineers and physicists. You are silent about the total absence of dissent in the worldwide structural engineering community. Are Iranian and North Korean engineers worried about losing their jobs?

            Instead of babbling, try learning about the physics of the collapses. Check out the lecture by NASA engineer Ryan Mackey on 'Hardfire.'

          • Pavlovian Dogcatcher

            Again, in contradiction to your claim of "total absence of dissent in the worldwide structural engineering community":

            "As for structural engineers who have found "errors" in the NIST report, dozens are members of AE9/11T alone, and I'd bet plenty more would come forward if they didn't have to worry about being ostracized by masses of belligerent morons who are too out of their gourds to face the truth."

            As for Mackey, the guy is a dolt spouting but pseudoscientific crackpotery which utterly fails the test of reproducibility. For anyone who cares to hear some real science from a career NASA engineer, see here:

          • Pavlovian Dogcatcher

            Were it true that "[o]nce the global collapse began, nothing could conceivably arrest it.", one would be able to construct a simplified model to demonstrate the general phenomena. Such experimental validation fundamental to the scientific method. while the official story for how the towers (and WTC 7) came down lacks anything of the sort, because it is nothing but pseudoscientific crackpottery perpetuated to cover up the fact that the buildings were rigged to come down. As for structural engineers who have found "errors" in the NIST report, dozens are members of AE9/11T alone, and I'd bet plenty more would come forward if they didn't have to worry about being ostracized by masses of belligerent morons who are too out of their gourds to face the truth.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

            The NIST reports were produced by over a thousand structural engineers, physicists, fire safety experts, materials scientists, metallurgists, and computer programmers. You are clearly someone who has no technical background. For a scientific illiterate to real science "pseudoscientific crackpottery" is the height of presumption. No buildings were "rigged" to come down: THEY WERE HIT BY FULLY-FUELED COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS!
            Gage's gaggle of frauds and lunatics includes one nut who thinks the towers were nuked and another who believes that lifting the top third of a large building two miles, then dropping it onto the bottom two-thirds does no damage.
            Engineers make their living by getting it right. You want to pretend that NIST could perpetrate a gigantic hoax without ever getting called on it? Very silly.

  • BS1977

    Let's see now…hundreds of workers planted high explosives at every column of the WTC…both buildings….but no one noticed. Let's see…four aircraft, obviously hijacked and photographed slamming into the WTC had "nothing to do" with the collapse, even though tests have shown thousands of gallons of burning jet fuel, plastics and other combustible materials turned the WTC into a blast furnace ….steel became soft as wax.
    Let's see now….somehow officials in Washington DC planned the explosions to occur exactly 45 minutes after the jets hit….and on and on it goes…total lunacy….total idiocy. True there are questions about the WTC 9/11 commission reports…but to say our government planned and executed the entire event is beyond absurd. It's stupid.

    • Joe

      BS 1977 (BS–well monikered)

      Tests never showed anything like what you describe, in fact NIST admitted as much.

      Furthermore, regarding building 7, NIST ADMITTED FREE-FALL SPEED, and their report fell short of explaining the ACTUAL COLLAPSE. Their analyis stops at the point of "initiation" of collapse, not the collapse itself, giving themselves, in the eyes of morons like you, credibility.

      Hundreds of witnesses reported hearing explosions in the basements of all three buildings.

      But lunacy? How's this for lunacy: 19 hijackers led by a man in a cave 6,000 miles fooled the most sophisticated defense in the world and caused the collapse of three steel framed skyscrapers by hitting only TWO of them, and caused them to fall symmetrically at free-fall speed, defying the laws of thermodynamics. They also crashed a jet into the most heavily defended building in the solar system, by flying a path that even the most experienced pilots say could not be done.

      Now THAT'S lunacy.

      Grow up.

    • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

      BS1977: "…hundreds of workers planted high explosives at every column of the WTC…both buildings….but no one noticed."

      But what would they have noticed? Obviously the people rigging the buildings wouldn't have had signs on their backs reading, "Hey, we're the guys planting bombs in the towers." It would have been a clandestine operation. There was an elevator modernization going on the nine months prior to 9/11. Plus, there was fireproofing upgrades that occurred strangely on or near the floors of jet impact.

    • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

      BS1977: "even though tests have shown thousands of gallons of burning jet fuel, plastics and other combustible materials turned the WTC into a blast furnace ….steel became soft as wax. "

      Which tests are you referring too? In fact, tests done on the remaining structural steel shows just the opposite. Of the areas tested on the perimeter
      columns, only 2% of reached above 250C(482F) and none of the core columns showed temperatures above 250C(482F). Steel really doesn't even weaken at that temperature and doesn't melt till about 2,750F. As well, the jet fuel would have burned up within the first 10 minutes after impact.

      The official story thrives off ignorance.

  • 9-11 Infidel

    When I read some of these posts I can't get Rod Serling's intro out of my head. "you are about to enter another dimension, a dimension of sights and sound…a journey into a wonderous land of imagination….Next stop the Twilight Zone…."

  • trout

    " 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. " – 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NIV

    " Why would anyone believe a lie? Because the truth often demands painful transformations that most people are unwilling to make. The way of the Lord is difficult and lonely, but it leads to eternal life (Matthew 7:13-14)." – Dennis Allan

  • USMCSniper

    Scholars for 9/11 Truth is a crackpot academic group that was founded in January 2002 by a band of academics including a mediorce physicist Steven Jones from Brigham Young University and Marxist philosopher David Griffin. It now has more than 200 members, mostly left wing fringe academics from lower-tier universities. Their conspiracy theories and themselves have no credibility whatsoever.

    • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com tanabear

      Scholars for 9/11 Truth was founded by James Fetzer and Steven Jones in 2005. Steven Jones left Scholars and founded his own organization, Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice in 2007. Richard Gage started Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth in 2006 and they currently have almost 1,200 signatories. Obviously, if our claims were baseless well-credentialed people would not keep signing the petition.

      It is the official story promoted by NIST and Bazant that has zero credibility.

      • USMCSniper

        None are of the first rank and therefore not colleagues of mine. I never debate with non-colleagues or fools. Willy Nelson believes it and also uses magic mushrooms!

  • Fred Wolters

    "What a lonely battle it must be" for the few supporters of the official conspiracy theory here to continue to support it in the face of so much evidence against it. Certainly, there are many more physicists, pilots, architects, and engineers who readily see the flaws in the official version than there are supporting it, the few appearances of NIST officials with their weak statements of support and laughable articles like Popular Mechanics' notwithstanding. Besides the now almost 1200 member "Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth" ae911truth.org , readers might check out the hundreds of statements at patriotsquestion911.com by other professionals to decide who are in fact the "infamous conspiracy theorists."

  • http://www.ae911truth.org Tony Lambregts

    The laws of physics are not the kind of laws you can break. no exceptions.

    If an object is undergoing free fall it is using all its potential energy just gaining velocity at 9.8 ft/sec squared. Objects cannot accelerate at free fall acceleration if they are encountering any resistance. Simple right.

    Building 7 fell at free fall acceleration for the first 2.25 seconds. That means that about 100 feet or 8 stories of the underlying structure offered no resistance. The only reason that all the underlying structure would not create resistance is if it was not there. In other words it got out of the way very rapidly and if I may say so explosively.

    Molten metal was found at the bottom of buildings 1, 2 and 7. Since ordinary hydrocarbon fires don't burn that hot unless extra oxygen is added as in a blast furnace, How did it get there?

    Micro spheres of previously molten iron were permeated throughout the dust. This is documented in the Deutsche Bank. insurance claim for damages after 9/11. Why would that be?

    Steven E Jones et al reported finding nano thermite in the dust from 9/11. What is that doing there?

    The evidence that 9/11 was an "Inside Job" is overwhelming. If you think that your government would never lie to you they go ahead and live in your dream world.

  • George Jones

    Many conspiracy theories turn out to be right. Not the Bush Theory of 9/11 There is too much evidence to the contrary.Explosives in the dust, Molten metal. And all that secrecy. What are they hiding?

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

      Stop lying. No explosives were in the dust or anywhere else. There is a reason why nobody who works in the demolition industry takes your moonshine seriously. The molten metal that "cooked" under tons of debris is not an indication of controlled demolition.

  • Pavlovian Dogcatcher

    For the record, Griffin wrote a well reasoned reply to this ridiculous smear piece:

    Granted, I doubt any of the frothing 9/11 deniers here will bother to read it.

  • Brian

    2+2=5 at Front Page Mag!!
    Up is the new down!!

    Name calling will not change the reality that the majority of the commissioners said the commission was a farce, set up to fail… just ask Max Cleland, John Farmer (still covering and denying, but still able to admit the commission is a pack of lies).

    Ask the 1170+ architects and engineers why they've put their name on the line saying it had to be a controlled demolition http://www.ae911truth.org

    Or ask the Fox News reporter Joel Scott Shapiro about his info that Larry Silverstein was on the phone to his insurer prior to WTC 7 being "pulled".

    But you won't: you equate Patriotism with believing in the Official 9/11 Conspiracy Theory.

    Speaking of which: Did you hear that box cutters testimony disproven in court by FBI saying Barbara Olson never connected with Ted her husband to relay that message? Not from Front Page Mag…

  • davarino

    They would see a line of dominoes fall after the first one fell and call it a conspiracy, or magic. Oh well, there are some of the people you can fool, but not all of us.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Indioviejo Indioviejo

    Between 9/11 conspiracy theories, global warming disaster threat, JFK conspiracy, and

    plenty of other invented theories floating around in the Academia cesspool, is time to

    recognize the senseless idiocy comming out of the Ivory Tower. As my Daddy used to

    tell me,"Common sense is the least common of all senses."

  • Pavlovian Dogcatcher

    Again, try to construct a simplified model of your theory to provide experimental validation all you like, but you will find you can't get anywhere close, because what you are attempting to rationalize isn't even close to what is physically possible. Deal with it.

    • davarino

      Explain to us again what isnt possible.

      • Pavlovian Dogcatcher

        It's not possible to come anywhere close to destroying a whole building by dropping the top ~20% on the ~80% bellow, hence the reason NIST was unable to provide any semblance of experimental validation of the claim, and neither can anyone else.

        • pomeroo

          This spectacular idiocy is associated with the hopelessly deranged Anders Bjorkman ("Heiwa"). He is a laughingstock even among other conspiracy liars for his inability to comprehend basic physics and his total ineducability.
          Stop spouting nonsense and try to learn.

          • Pavlovian Dogcatcher

            You 9/11 deniers are the ones spouting nonsense in defense of paroscientific crackpottery which utterly fails the test of reproducibility which is so fundamental to the scientific method.

        • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com/ tanabear

          However, you cede too much to the official story. I'm not assuming that the upper block would have even fallen onto the lower block due to the explantion provded by NIST(i.e. inward bowing of the perimeter columns due to the caternary action of the sagging floor trusses)

          For this to occur there had to be a complete separation of the upper and lower blocks. How did this happen? The majority of the perimeter and core columns were still intact after the plane impacts. For the rest of the columns to be severed within seconds or less of each other an event of greater magnitude than the plane impacts must have occurred.

          The only viable explanation is explosive charges

  • BS1977

    This will be my last post …a tough habit to break, but I am out of here like exited, no longer in the building….as they say in Texas, it's been real and it's been nice but it aint been real nice…….all this commenting and arguing, venting and all…enough already. BYE

  • pomeroo

    NIST has not been "called out" by anyone who isn't an agenda-driven moron. No real engineers have found any errors of science in the NIST reports, as you know. There is a reason why the charlatans who lead you imbeciles by the nose avoid debates with serious researchers.

    • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com/ tanabear

      You define an agenda driven moron as anyone who disagrees with official state propaganda. Most engineers are probably not even aware of what is in the NIST report. Those who have looked at the reports have problems beyond compare.

  • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com/ tanabear

    pomeroo: "Try it again: the mass of three collapsing floors will crush the floor below,."

    But will any of the mass of the falling floors be crushed when they impact with the lower floors?

  • http://tanabear911.blogspot.com/ tanabear

    The credentials of ae911truth signatories are similar to those who worked on the NIST and FEMA reports. The only difference is that there are a lot more questioning the official story than actively supporting it.

  • RumBum

    > How did the supposed Government conspiracy arrange to have the explosives planted >in three buildings without anyone noticing?

    The elevator shafts allowed access to most of the main structural columns. There was a six-month elevator renovation project going on before 9/11.

    >How did the govt. arrange for four jets to be hijacked at precisely the desired time

    They weren't hijacked at the precise desired time. They were bumbling all over the sky for 100 minutes.

    >coordinate the supposed explosions to take place to make the buildings appear to >collapse from the jet impacts at precisely the floor levels of jet impact.

    Fly the plane in on the autopilot on a radio beacon and it will hit where you want. Use computer-controlled radio-detonated charges and you can program the detonation sequence however you like. Ever hear of MIDI?

    >where are the 19 hijackers

    Presumably they're dead, though some dispute it.

  • Gel

    The inside job is obviously what happened in the WTC. More clear than water.

  • Lib

    chezwick you sad suck.. cant handle the facts eh?

    this may be why… http://911blogger.com/news/2011-01-02/psychologic

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  • http://www.seomagic.biz Kenyetta Abdelhamid

    I worked at Camden Drive location of Magic Pan. It was my first job in the US. I remember the chef named Tally…funny guy and Ray, Eric whom I met years later in Disneyland.. I can never forget Karen who worked there to save money to travel Europe. I loved all items on the menu, specially the spinach salad, the Hungarian soup, Crepe Suzette. I learned to make desserts there while working for Magic Pan and today I impress my friends by making some of those same desserts at home. I have visited the restaurant many times in the 80s. I truly miss the food. It would be a very successful restaurant if someone would start with the same business model. Don’t forget Cherries Jubilee. What a great dessert!

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/pomeroo pomeroo

    There is nothing shocking about the facade free-falling, i.e., meeting no resistance, for 2.5 seconds. You can't con people who know something about physics.
    You are clueless about the significance of the iron microspheres (hint: they are insignificant).
    Niels Harrit and Steven Jones are frauds. A year ago, conspiracy liars trumpeted the latest smoking gun. Several materials scientists pointed that Jones and his accomplices had discovered red paint. Rationalists explained to the fantasists that the frauds would NEVER submit their samples to independent labs for validation. It's now 2010 and another smoking gun didn't pan out.
    No conspiracy liar has shown how thermite, thermate, or superdoopernanothermite can cut a vertical column. It doesn't matter, as none of these substances were present in the WTC complex on the day of the jihadist attacks.
    Kean and Hamilton didn't think the commission failed. You dunces should stop the silly quote-mining.
    I won't take your word for it. You are an ineducable ignoramus blinded by your hatred of America.

  • TruthLiesHere

    Jet fuel burns at a temperature of 1500-1800 degrees F. Most of that exploded and burnt during impact. If steel melts at 2500 to 2750 degrees F, then you've just conceded that there wasn't enough heat generated to bring down the structure. Even if there were, there should have been 30 floors of debris remaining.