Targeting Israel

Mark Tooley is President of the Institute on Religion and Democracy (www.theird.org) and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. Follow him on Twitter: @markdtooley.


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Minnesota Methodists, having decided that slamming Israel is central to their mission, have released a new special curriculum called “Palestine/Israel: Advocating for a Just & Lasting Peace.”

The 7.8 million member United Methodist Church’s Minnesota Annual Conference is one of the denomination’s most left-leaning and consequently fastest declining regions.  It’s lost over 20 percent of membership just in the last decade and is now down to about 70,000 United Methodists in Minnesota. Evangelizing and reversing this membership decline might have been a logical response.  But instead, the elites of Minnesota Methodism evidently believe that targeting Israel for ongoing condemnation is more urgent.  Generously, they are disseminating their anti-Israel study guide across the denomination nationwide.

“We invite you to join us in a lifetime of learning, of experiencing spiritual vitality, and of an exhilarating way of life as you find yourself making a difference for peace,” chirpily chimes the new website of Minnesota Methodism’s “Palestine Israel Justice Project” (PIJP).  The endeavor evidently traces back to 2001, when Methodist missionaries in “Palestine” challenged their Midwestern brothers and sisters to a “peace for Palestine” movement in Minnesota

PIJP’s September “prayer” alert for Minnesota Methodism encapsulated the project’s anti-Israel flavor.   “We pray that we might be able to put ourselves in the place of Palestinians who cannot report to their work place because of 30 foot walls, permanent and temporary check-points,” the Minnesota Methodists plead, without also praying they might understand Israelis who still struggle for their nation’s survival after over 60 years.   But the Minnesota Methodists did pray that “Israeli Jews will heed the warning of the Hebrew prophets that ‘Zion’ will be wrested away from them in the wake of perpetual injustice.”  Is there any possibility that Palestinians don’t fully have their own nation because of their own “injustice” in not wanting to live besides Israel?  If so, it’s unmentioned in this prayer. At least the “prayer” did  cite the “negative persistence of Hamas,” in the context of praying for the “integrity of Palestinian peace efforts.”

Predictably, PIJP justifies its anti-Israel animosity by citing the voices of Palestinian Christians, who comprise a tiny minority of Palestinian Christians and whose public voices, whether from conviction or self-survival, are habitually anti-Israel and uncritical of the Palestinian Authority.  “The curriculum raises the voices and concerns of Palestinian Christians,” explains Minnesota United Methodist Bishop Sally Dyck in her introduction to the PIJP study guide.  “Why wouldn’t we listen to the voices of our own Christian brothers and sisters, even if their perspectives might be different from ours or challenge us to see this part of the world from their eyes?”  Convenient primarily as a talking point against Israel, Palestinian Christians are virtually the only struggling Christian community in the world of persistent interest to the Religious Left.

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  • Rony Sussman

    Show Christian compassion here. They are afterall Christians.
    Do not mislead them with facts.

    • scum

      I get it. You're launching a crusade to kill all Christians?

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  • John

    St Paul says of the unbelieving Jews: "For the gifts and the call are irrevocable" (Romans 11,29). In the context of the call operating through the Patriarchs, the gift of the Land is probably the most prominant of the gifts St Paul is referring to. If only the Methodists would listen to St Paul, and stop whining about the presence of Jews in their Land. If they have to complain, let them complain about the way the Israelis treat others, but let them judge by the same standard as they judge other nations and peoples, including the Palestinians themselves. If the Methodists carry on the way they are going at present, maybe we'll see a Methodist armed brigade in the upcoming.Palestinian 'War of Independance'.

    • mayday521

      Take heed…for May 21, 2011 cometh like a thief in the night…unless we pay attention and check out: http://www.familyradio.com/

  • Beverley

    By definition, an indigenous people, group cannot be called an "occupying presence". An Apache cannot "occupy" Arizona, nor a Maori "occupy" New Zealand. How then can a Jew "occupy" Jerusalem, Bethlehem, or Jericho when independent of Scripture archaeology proves categorically that they are indigenous?
    Even if they choose to ignore the prophetic teaching of Jesus on a national restoration of Israel to Jerusalem Luke 21:24, Matthew 23:38-39, Zechariah 12:1-10 http://www.moriel.org
    The Methodists should also learn the difference between Christians and 'christians'. There are a lot of 'fake' Christians out there. http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com
    Even Jesus said "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" He was speaking to people who called him Lord, Lord. Matt 7:21&22

    • Scott Gambill

      Unfortunately your statement is rather worthless. The holy land was occupied by many other tribes over thousands of years. In fact if you want to use the bible as a reference the holy land was occupied prior to the Jews by at least the Canaanites and the Philistines – (where did you think the word Palestine came from anyway)

      Probably in the end the Jews and these other people regardless of what they call themselves shared various parts of Isreal and gained and lost ground through wars for thousands of years. But it would seem if you trust the Bible as fact that the former have a better claim on that land than the Jews.

      • MixMChess

        I personally don't think it is very useful to use the bible as a source of legitimacy for the State of Israel. Zionism was originally a purely secular movement based on the Jews very real and legitimate historical and legal connection to the land.

    • scum

      so you hate Christians too?

  • ObamaYoMoma

    I hate to rain on their church, but the jihad against Israel is a lesser jihad of the greater global jihad at large. Hence, no matter what Israel does, there will never be peace between Jewish infidels and Muhammadans, as Muhammadans are under obligation to kill or subjugate them. Moreover, those Methodists are also in the same boat as Israel, but apparently they are too dumb and stupid to realize it.

    Further, of course, Christian dhimmis living under the authority of Islam in the disputed territories as second-class persecuted and often violently oppressed citizens have no other choice but to parrot the Muhammadan line, otherwise they will be killed. I guess that is too hard for those unhinged losers to figure out.

  • jbtrevor

    It seems they haven't tuned in their receivers to the broadcast from Christians living in the Middle East, esp in Islamic controlled territories…
    Perhaps they should read the statements from all the clergy who gathered for the Vatican's synod about this very issue.
    While 1 of the Catholic Bishops errantly (in opposition to Catholic teaching) took this opportunity to 'blame' Israel, the only conclusion that can be drawn from the totality of the clerical reports is life for Christians in the Middle East is dangerous, not because of Israel, but because of the Islamists…

  • badaboo

    You're right on the money jbtrevor. Christians in muslim lands are routinely persecuted , raped , forced to convert to islam , killed , and overall treated like second class citizens , or otherwise put according to Q'uranic teachings – DHIMMIS . This has absolutely nothing to do with jews , Israel or any other false cunard issue muslims may raise . Muslims are intolerant of all others , including fellow muslims and sects considered apostate . This will never end , and those Methodists will at the end of the day find themselves in the same position as the jews . BYW , it's no surprise that the catholic Cleric who slammed Israel; is from Lebanon .Oddly enough it was Lebanese muslims who went on a genocidal rampage in the mid 80's and slaughtered 10,000 Lebanese Christians .

    • HendryNels

      "The Sabra and Shatila massacre took place in the Sabra and Shatila Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut, Lebanon between September 16 and September 18, 1982, during the Lebanese civil war. Palestinian and Lebanese civilians were massacred in the camps by Christian Lebanese Phalangists while the camp was surrounded by Israeli forces."

      As you can read from this wikipidea account, it was Christians who murdered the Muslims in this case, not the other way around. Although it was Jews who were blamed for it. Otherwise what you wrote was true.

    • badaboo

      There's no denying that , but whjat you fail to mention , is that the Phalangists were administering PAYBACK for the assasination of their leaders , and the [by that time ] murder of thousands of their lot , by palestinians . .It had nothing to do with religion , and everything to do with political revenge .

  • badaboo

    ….makes you wanna just throw your hands up …

  • Muchiboy

    A few points based on mostly first hand experience with these groups.Firstly,it is about right and wrong,not fairness or even handedness.In my "discussions" with such groups, and they became very heated indeed,centered at the time on southern Africa and Rhodesia in the '70's,all accusations of terrorism or abuses on the part of the "freedom fighters"were either dismissed or ignored.In retrospect,I can't say I blame them in their single mindedness.Apartheid was wrong,and one man,one vote should be universal where the ideals of the Western democracies are held.
    Apartheid was wrong,and a crime against humanity.Similarly, Zionism is wrong,and a crime against humanity and the Palestinian people.
    While one can point to the unfairness of the Methodist church in condemning Israel while ignoring the sins of the Arabs,in all fairness one can point to the more fundamentalist Christian churches who base their even more severe and one sided support of Israel on biblical theology.What's good for the goose,eh.Muchiboy

    • stern

      only problem with your argument, muchiboy, is that Zionism is not and never will be Apartheid. Israeli Arabs vote, belong to the Knesset and the Supreme Court, have equal rights to Israeli Jews, enjoy free health care, can live anywhere they want etc. etc. No matter what you and Jimmah say, Israel is not an Apartheid society. As for the Palestinians, they are not citizens of Israel, but of the Palestinian Authority which, incidentally, is way overdue for elections.

      • scum

        Actually, the ORTHODOX RABBINATE is looking increasingly like the lunatic theological despotism in Iran. The Ultra-faction is gaining ground. Witness today, in fact, in the article which shows how American Jews moving to Israel are not accepted as 'Jewish enough', their marriages not recognized, and so on. So while there are certainly differences between apartheid and Israel, one surely recognizes that if indeed there were to be a 'Palestinian state', it would be in name only, a veritable bantustan of faux-political 'autonomy' in a world where all political and military authority is couched in Israel. To think anything else is to have several pairs of rose-colored glasses on…

        • MixMChess

          Yes, and the majority of Israeli and diaspora Jews (loudly) disagree with the Orthodox Rabbi's position, "the most vociferous critics of Israel are Israelis themselves who use their freedom of speech to express their concerns every day."

          "if indeed there were to be a 'Palestinian state', it would be in name only, a veritable bantustan of faux-political 'autonomy' in a world where all political and military authority is couched in Israel. To think anything else is to have several pairs of rose-colored glasses on… "

          Not quite. The "political authority" would be couched with the Palestinians themselves. Currently, the PA and Hamas govern the W. Bank and Gaza respectfully.

          As for military, at this stage in the game Israel has very real concerns about Palestinians with Weapons. Israel has every right to demand that any Palestinian state have a limited military given the Palestinians propensity to violence and murder of Jews. Hopefully, in time this could be changed if the Palestinians are willing to give up their hatred of Jews and stop inculcating their children with xenophobia.

    • ObamaYoMoma

      Apartheid was wrong,and a crime against humanity.Similarly, Zionism is wrong,and a crime against humanity and the Palestinian people.

      With all due respect, the Israelis aren’t guilty of apartheid. The Muhammadan citizens of Israel, which makes up approximately 20 percent of the population of Israel, share the exact same rights as the Jewish citizens and Christian citizens of Israel, as Israel embraces freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and freedom of religion for all. In addition, Muhammadan citizens of Israel have been elected or served as city councilmen, mayors, members of Knesset, members of the Israeli cabinet, as ambassadors, as judges, and as justices on the Israeli Supreme Court. In fact, the Muhammadan citizens of Israel today are the freest, most affluent, and most educated Muhammadans living in the entire Middle East. You don’t have a clue what you are talking about and your ignorance’s have obviously been exploited to the hilt.

      Now if you want to falsely accuse Israel of apartheid, then take a look at all the Muhammadan countries that surrounds Israel, as gender apartheid, gender persecution, and often-violent oppression of females is practiced by all of them. In addition, because those Muhammadan countries also live according to Sharia, they also institutionalize systematic persecution and often-violent oppression of non-Muslims as well. Hence, not only is apartheid practiced against all females, but also against all non-Muslims without exception too. Yet, you are vilifying and demonizing only Jews to incite hatred and violence against them, and they are not even guilty. What is wrong with this picture?

      In addition, Israel doesn’t even rule over the so-called Palestinians living in the disputed territories, as they are governed and ruled over by either the Palestinian Authority or the elected Hamas government.

      In any event, the jihad against Israel, which has been ongoing for many years now is permanent, and it is also part of the greater global jihad at large, which also, by the way, is permanent and there is no peace possible. Hence, unless you are a Muhammadan, the Islamic world is waging jihad against you too. However, you don’t notice it because unlike the Israelis you don’t live on the front lines of the global jihad. Not to mention that you have also had your ignorance’s exploited to the hilt as well too.

      Therefore, you can support the Muhammadans against Israel, but be aware that you are also supporting the same people who not only want to impose Sharia by force on the Jews living in Israel, but also impose it by force on you and your descendents too one day. So why are you shooting yourself in your own foot and at the same time using obviously untrue illegitimate criticisms to vilify and demonize Jews to incite hatred and violence against them? Don’t you realize that is anti-Semitic? It seems there is a lot you don’t know and realize?

      • scum

        In the banstustans they could elect their own 'leaders' as well. In Zululand and elsewhere, those leaders held significant power and had 'autonomy'. But of course it was, in the end, meaningless. But don't worry, Palin will be elected in two years and solve all the world's problems. LOL

    • badaboo

      Back again eh muchiboy ? back to display yourgratuitous anti-semitism , that is , and a common mechanism no doubt amongst muslims , comparing zionism to apartheid , and trhe usual nazi comparisons . I've been to both countries , before and after apartheid. Black members of my crew had to call black cab drivers , blacks were not allowed to walk on the white side of the street .A white could be arrested by venturing into a black or "colored " neighborhood . So it was for the several times i visited Capetown and Durban .Never in atleast 15 visits to Israel between 1966 and 1993 had I seen anything that even came close . So cut the B.S. muchi-boy .

      • scum

        Actually, to suggest that critiques of Israeli state policy amounts to Anti-Semitism means three things: You have resorted to sleazy ad hominem attacks, and you've confused anti-Semitism against a racial/religious group with legitimate critiques of governmental policy. Finally, you have tried to deny the right to free speech. It's not 'B.S.', it's a legitimate position you can disagree with, respectfully. Finally, do you have the freedom to wander around the border of Gaza/West Bank and Israel freely? Just do as you please without being searched on the border? Didn't think so.

        • MixMChess

          Legitimate criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, however attempts to vilify, delegitimize, and deny Israel's right to exist are plainly antisemitic.

          As for the borders,you are basically wrong since it depends which part of the border you're referencing. I have been to Israel and walked along parts of the borders near the W. Bank (and Lebanon) without any incident. Some parts of the borders you are free to walk along. However, obviously other parts of the border have stricter security concerns, due to Palestinian suicide bombers and violence. Surely, you've seen the famous Bansky graffiti on the security wall.

    • Paul Freedman

      "Zionism" as a historical collective summation of Jewish action, culture, yearning, and hopes, is not "wrong", no matter how many semi-literate pseudo-intellectual apologies for Palestinian anti-Semitism chop that logic. It is, of course, not merely anti-Semitic to label the Jewish state as a "crime against humanity and the Palestinian people" for, what? existing? refusing to permit itself to be liquidated? for being on the eastern side of the Green line, or the Western side? Judaism is not a crime, Israel, before the descent of large portions of Western public opinion into self-willed imbecility, was granted the right of sovereign authority no less than any other nation represented in that still popular cathouse, the United Nations.

      Unfortunately, given the ethical posture of the United Nations and the inability of many to distinguish lofty moralizing from the cheapest manifestations of self-interest, the nations all too often act with the moral delicacy of a hooker in need of cab fare, attempting to turn by some disingenuous alchemy, a desire for the Jewish state to simply disappear so that they can get on with the daily squalid commerce of international relations, with some higher theological anti-apartheid calling.

      For the Methodist mucky mucks of Minnesota this is no more serious than a faddish pretense, an easy tricked out parody of virtue whose point is not so much as to seriously advance the Palestinian cause of conquering Israel but to show that they are on board with current mores, pose no threat to Islamist supremacy, and are willing to see the Jewish "criminal" state disappear. This is not a Zionist tragedy or a Methodist one but a Palestinian debacle.

      For until the Palestinians and their western supporters come to grips with the national socialist imperative still motivating the Palestinians' continuing kampf against "Judaization", there will be continued bewilderment as to why the Palestinians suffer defeat after defeat, abjection after abjection, curse after curse.

  • mikeb

    Jews wanting to live in the Holy Land with a state of their own is somehow wrong? Palestinian Muslims have a state of their own — it's called Jordan. And if that wasn't enough, Palestinian Muslims were offered a second state of their own. They rejected it.

    How on earth is Zionism a "crime against humanity?" It is not, of course, a crime against anything, much less humanity itself.

    And, by the way, out of all the real crimes against humanity taking place in Africa in the 20th century, Apartheid was far down on the list. And even then, apartheid hardly compares to any form of conduct and policy performed by the state of Israel.

    • scum

      THere have been many crimes against humanity in Africa. Rwanda/Sierra Leone/Liberia are obvious cases. But the introduction of Western Racial Discourse in Africa had terrible consequences in Apartheid (also in Rwanda, which was actually a 'Race' war, with the Belgians turning around at the last moment and supporting 'democratic' rule of the Hutus over the Tutsis, whom they have previously favored. The Hutu/Tutsi racial divide was partly fueled by Belgium.) One only need look up Eugene 'Prime Evil' de Kock for example. What was great about South Africa is that Nelson Mandela always took the high road against his captors and helped to avoid a vindictive race war. Of course, in doing so, he had to agree to white economic rule, in return receiving black political rule.

  • http://mypage.direct.ca/l/lbouchar/ SeaMystic

    The Methodist involved against Israel obviously are not aligned to the Christ nor understand Christianity. All these so called christian activists do not realize that ArchAngel Michael declared War against the Luciferian faction in the heavens. They are supporting the Demonic Evil of Islam.
    The question is: You got any womenfolk you want to offer up in your family for Stonings, Circumcision and Honour Killings?

    If not check, http://www.petitiononline.com/MYSTIC/petition.htm

    • mayday521

      Take heed…for May 21, 2011 cometh like a thief in the night…unless we pay attention and check out: http://www.familyradio.com/

  • tallahasseelassee

    Why are so many people afraid to speak out agaist the evil that IS Islam. Oh, that's right..They will kill you. Islam is a very real threat to the world and it is time Christians stand up, Speak out and take a stand. If we don't we will become as the Christians in Lebannon. DEAD. Let's have our ministers replace the word muslim or islam with the word rape, murder or genocide and have them recite their tolerance sermon to us again. See how that works because it is what they are preaching.

    • scum

      It's the fastest growing religion in the world. Get used to it.

      • MixMChess

        Ok, so does that mean we can start beating our women now?

  • Muchiboy

    "is that Zionism is not and never will be Apartheid."

    Stern,I halfway agree with you that equating Apartheid and even genocide with Zionism is problematic.These policies were (are) at the extreme of a continuum of human behavior.However,Zionism was conceived and implemented by competent ,powerful Jews over time who either through ignorance or conniving should have known the impact on the non-Jews of Palestine.While the beginnings of Zionism may be traced to a time when the European powers were colonizing Africa,the realization came at a time when decolonization was beginning e.g.1948
    Accusations and comparisons of Apartheid or Apartheid equivalent nature and/or policies as well as Genocide and ethnic cleansing against Zionist Israel are certainly arguable.Failing a legal case against Israel,a strong moral case holds.If indeed arguments equating Zionism with Apartheid,Genocide or ethnic cleansing do not hold,the accusations would place a strong second to the crimes against humanity and against the Palestinian people.Either way,the Jewish people are guilty of unconscionable acts against the Palestinian people.Muchiboy

    • stern

      muchiboy, the thing that amazes me about you is how often you happily prove your ignorance. "Zionism was conceived and implemented by competent, powerful Jews" !!!! Come on!!! Zionism was initially conceived by Theodore Herzl in response to the Dreyfus affair (do your homework, muchiboy) which demonstrates precisely how POWERLESS Jews were in other countries. If the Jews who furthered the aims of Zionism were so powerful, why did it take so long for Israel to be reborn? Why did it require a UN vote? Why were Jews kept out of the Holy Land just before, during an immediately after World War II?
      Really muchiboy, remember the wise person who said something like "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it." You just keep proving it.

      As for your continued and constant moaning about "unconscionable acts against the Palestinian people", this is getting really tedious. It's all just so much Palestinian propaganda. They're masters of the art, and you are a completely gullible student. Why don't you take your business to the Guardian? You'll find it far more welcoming there than here, because here, people actually do know the facts.

      • scum

        The fact is, IT DIDN"T take long for Israel to be born. The Zionist movement grew from a small, marginal movement of fairly orthodox Jews (and a few terrorists like the Stern Gang) to a fairly powerful, influential group of well-heeled individuals. The worldwide decolonization movement could be said to have started right on the heels of WWII, with the independence of India (Pakistan soon to follow, but as an outgrowth of Gandhi's movement), in 1947. Israel was formed only a year later (no sub-Saharan country gained independence until Ghana in 1947, Asian countries like Vietnam had to go through 3 decades of war and crush two superpowers to gain it independence much later). In no way was the construction of Israel a late event, and it's even questionable if it was 'decolonization' at all, in the traditional sense. In large part, it was the first substantial form of reparations ever offered to a people after an unspeakable horror. Finally, a small point: In terms of Theodor Herzl, modern historians debate more and more the extent to which he was actually influenced by the Dreyfus Affair – bu that's a minor scholarly point anyway.

        • scum

          Excuse my typo: Ghana's independence was 1957, under Kwame Nkrumah.

        • MixMChess

          "The Zionist movement grew from a small, marginal movement of fairly orthodox Jews (and a few terrorists like the Stern Gang) to a fairly powerful, influential group of well-heeled individuals."

          The early Zionist movement was a purely secular movement that largely did not include the orthodox movement until after Israel was already established. In fact, most of the mainstream orthodox Jewish organizations criticized the creation of Israel (and arguing it shouldn't exist) because it was done by men and not gd. Most orthodox groups recanted their positions, only a few (such as the Neturei Karta) still hold that Israel shouldn't exist.

    • Zvi Ben Zion

      I was just thinking about what you wrote. In Israel The non jewish population has equal rights. Where is the apartheid. They vote, can live where they want, own businesses serve in the government. Your reasoning fails the logic test. Now for the Palastenians, why did they reject their state, they are pawns of the other arab states. And Jordan is truly the state of the Palastine

  • stern

    Interesting that my response to muchiboy above has disappeared! Let's try and rewrite it, while avoiding what may have annoyed whoever wielded the magic eraser.
    muchiboy, you demonstrate profound ignorance with your comment about "competent, powerful Jews" who conceived and implemented Zionism. This is so wrong, it's almost laughable. If those competent Jews (I won't argue that point) were so powerful, how come millions of Jews were kept out of the Holy Land before, during and immediately after World War II, resulting in their deaths? How come those "powerful" Jews had to wait for a vote at the UN to give them Israel? Surely if they were so powerful, they could simply have taken it? How come those powerful Jews are still at the mercy of an anti-Israel government like that currently ruling the US?

    Finally, your ongoing bleating about "unconscionable acts" against the Palestinian people is nothing more than Palestinian propaganda. Compare the civilian kill rates in Iraq – now available thanks to Wikipedia – with the incredibly low rates in Operation Cast Lead, Gaza 2006, and you will see that Israel takes extreme care to avoid harming civilians. That's just one example of how you've been led by the nose.

    Do some independent thinking muchiboy, and some wider reading. There's a whole lot of truth out there, waiting for you to discover it.

  • stern

    Meant wikileaks above, not wikipedia. Sorry!

  • Scott Gambill

    Haha! A Christian Church group steps forward trying to find a solution to one of the longest confrontations in history and the Conservative Right deems them Elitist and among the most "left leaning". For all of you fundamentalists a question: "What would Jesus think of that?"

    • Beverley

      Scott – Jesus made it very clear …. "My Kingdom is not of this World". How much more 'plain speak' can that be. He knew that humanity would always fight over things.

    • mayday521

      Take heed…for May 21, 2011 cometh like a thief in the night…unless we pay attention and check out: http://www.familyradio.com/

  • Muchiboy

    ". Where is the apartheid. They vote, can live where they want, own businesses serve in the government. "

    Firstly,Zvi Ben Zion,I did have limited first hand experience with Apartheid.I used to take my R&R from the Rhodesian Army in South Africa and later did live and work in Jo'burg for a time.
    While on the surface Apartheid was one of separate or segregated development of the races,effectively it preserved privilege and power for the European race at the expense of the African,Asian and Colored peoples.While Blacks retained a type of limited citizenship and land ownership i.e.homelands and townships,they were denied certain human rights enjoyed by whites.In effect,the Europeans tried to have their cake (i.e.retain privilege and power) and eat it too (i.e.source Black labor for the industrial/mining/agricultural complex).
    While non Jews in Israel have full citizenship,necessarily qualified in that Israel is defined as a Jewish state,political power has been taken and maintained by the once minority Jewish population through occupation and colonization by European Jews and a ruthless,heartless and ugly policy of ethnic cleansing of the one time Arab majority.Unlike Apartheid,the majority of Palestinians are denied their birthright and homeland as well as citizenship by virtue of past ethnic cleansing from their homeland.
    One can't escape the presence and similarities of internal resistance in both Apartheid South Africa and Zionist Israel as well as a powerful military/industrial complex.Similarly,the onerous system of Pass Laws and restrictions on movement of Blacks under Apartheid has its' counterpart in the likewise onerous system of checkpoints that places severe restrictions on the movement of Palestinians.One can't escape the similarities of the Bantustans of Apartheid South Africa and the scattered and isolated West Bank settlements of Palestinian enclaves in Israel.
    There are doubtless other similarities that characterize the two systems,the most obvious being the systematic denial of the simple human rights of the the indigenous populations.Altogether they amount(ed) to numerous crimes against humanity and the African and Palestinian people.Whether it was conscience or insight that led to the dismantling of Apartheid is debatable.Given that ethnic cleansing has been so successful and to the advantage of the Jewish population in Israel together with strong American and Western support for Israel calls into question a similar resolution to the conflict.There is a strong national (Israel) and international (Western Liberal Democracies) component of denial when judging Israel.Only global sanctions and boycotts similar to those used against South Africa can achieve a fair and just settlement.Muchiboy

    • mayday521

      Take heed…for May 21, 2011 cometh like a thief in the night…unless we pay attention and check out: http://www.familyradio.com/

    • MixMChess

      "While non Jews in Israel have full citizenship,necessarily qualified in that Israel is defined as a Jewish state,"

      How many times do you need this explained to you, Israel is a SECULAR state. Israel is the homeland of the Jews, just as Japan is the homeland of the Japanese, India is the homeland of Indians… etc.

      "political power has been taken and maintained by the once minority Jewish population through occupation and colonization by European Jews and a ruthless,heartless and ugly policy of ethnic cleansing of the one time Arab majority."

      That's just it. There never was an Arab majority in the areas of current Israel "proper" (as some refer to it). Even in 1947, when the UN partitioned the land, the Jewish state was to consist of the Jewish majority areas. Arabs made up majorities in the areas of the W. Bank where most of the fertile land is. Have you ever even looked at a map or read the population statistics? Or are you just hoping to fool people with less knowledge than you?

      "Unlike Apartheid,the majority of Palestinians are denied their birthright and homeland as well as citizenship by virtue of past ethnic cleansing from their homeland."

      As you can read from the other posts Palestinians first, never had a birthright to the land, thus there was no way for Jews to deny them of something nonexistent. Second, there was never any ethnic cleansing committed by the Israelis, that is an Arab practice.

      "Similarly,the onerous system of Pass Laws and restrictions on movement of Blacks under Apartheid has its' counterpart in the likewise onerous system of checkpoints that places severe restrictions on the movement of Palestinians."

      Unlike S. Africa, "where restrictions were racially motivated," Israel is forced by "incessant Palestinian terrorism to take actions, such as building checkpoints and the security fence," to protect its citizens against murder. Israel has "consistently demonstrated a willingness, however, to ease restrictions when violence subsides."

      Don't forget, the Palestinians in the territories "dispute Israel’s right to exist and seek to destroy Israel and commit genocide of the Jews, whereas most blacks in S. Africa did not seek the destruction of South Africa or the extermination of the Whites, only overthrowing the apartheid regime. Israel shouldn't have to apologize for protecting itself against murder.

      "There are doubtless other similarities that characterize the two systems,the most obvious being the systematic denial of the simple human rights of the the indigenous populations.Altogether they amount(ed) to numerous crimes against humanity and the African and Palestinian people."

      Wrong again, the Palestinians in the territories are governed by the rules of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, which do not permit "freedom of speech, religion, assembly or other rights taken for granted by Westerners — and guaranteed in Israel." Israel provides literally millions of tons of aids to the Palestinian territories in an effort to improve the situation for the Palestinians. If the PA and Hamas chose to squander this aid and use it to buy weapons to murder Jews, that is their own fault.

      "Given that ethnic cleansing has been so successful and to the advantage of the Jewish population in Israel together with strong American and Western support for Israel calls into question a similar resolution to the conflict."

      There was never any ethnic cleansing ever committed by Israel, you don't have one fact to support your claim.

      "Only global sanctions and boycotts similar to those used against South Africa can achieve a fair and just settlement."

      Actually genius, boycotts are extremely harmful to peace and to the Palestinians and their only real purpose is to defame Israel. There are economic initiatives within Israel that foster business, cooperation and peace between Israelis and Palestinians. Boycotts only destroy the (already fragile) cooperation. Those who are truly interested peace would support Israel and its many organizations committed to peace and understanding between Jews and Arabs, rather than boycotts which disallow cooperation and understanding.

      Of course, as you have previously made clear, you don't really have any humanitarian concerns for the Palestinians, you merely enjoy the opportunity to try to destroy Israel and attack and defame Jews.

  • Muchiboy

    con't

    If there is no Apartheid (separate/hood)in Israel as you argue,it is only because the Jews have successfully cleansed the Palestinians from their homeland,denying them their rightful birth right ,homeland and citizenship.Really,this reality resulting from ethnic cleansing is one step beyond the evil of Apartheid.Let's see,we could call it Apartmuur (separate/wall) .Muchiboy

    • ObamaYoMoma

      Actually Muchiboy, when the earliest Zionist Jews began returning to Israel in the late 19th century, the land that makes up the modern state of Israel with few exceptions was abandoned. In other words, Muchiboy, there were no Arabs, that were later morphed into so-called Palestinians by the KGB in 1964, living there because the land consisted of uninhabitable dry deserts and malaria infested swamps.

      The Arabs of the Levant in the Middle East were still medieval and living primitively in the Dark Ages. They didn’t have the technology or the wherewithal to develop the land because of what is called inshallah fatalism (if God is willing), which is prevalent throughout Islamic society and accounts in large part for why they have contributed practically nothing of value to the world.

      In addition, don’t take my word for it, read the writings of Mark Twain and other writers that visited what was known as Palestine in the latter 19th century to confirm this was the situation.

      Nevertheless, when the earliest Zionist settlers migrated to Israel they brought with them modern knowledge, modern medicine, and modern technology, and they used this modernity to drain the malarial swamps and to make the deserts bloom, which inevitably led to prosperity. It was this prosperity created by the early Zionist Jews relative to the still primitive and medieval Arabs that soon began attracting Arabs from the surrounding regions to Israel.

      Hence, the notion that the Jews somehow usurped the land of Israel from Arabs or that the Arabs were indigenous and so have a birthright to the land of Israel is totally absurd, because it was the other way around: the prosperity created by the early Zionist Jews attracted the primitive and medieval Arabs from surrounding regions to migrate to Israel. Not only that, but the Jews purchased the land at overly inflated prices from absentee landlords living in Turkey and Egypt. Therefore, Muchiboy, the propaganda you have been fed with respect to the history of Israel is not only wrong, but it is ludicrous. In other words, your ignorance’s have been exploited to the hilt.

      In addition, in the war of 1948 the Israelis didn’t ethnically cleanse those Arabs that were later morphed into the so-called Palestinians by the KGB, they left at the behest of the Arab Higher Committee and their leaders to make way for the invading Arab armies that collectively were going to annihilate the Jews. They were led to believe that they could return back to Israel in a few weeks to collect the property of the dead Jews as war booty.

      Further, the Jewish state of Israel has just as much right to exist as any of the surrounding Islamic states that surround Israel that were also carved out of the old and defunct Ottoman Empire post WWI by the French and the British. Indeed, what is happening in Israel today is a lesser jihad of the greater global jihad at large, and like all jihads it is permanent. Not only that but you too are a target, as the Muhammadans fully intend to impose Sharia on you and your descendants eventually.

      Lastly Muchiboy, the presence of checkpoints and so-called apartheid walls that restricts the movements of the so-called Palestinians are a direct response to terrorism and suicide/homicide bombers. Hence, I know you disagree with it, but even the Jews have an inalienable right to self-defense.

    • Naftush

      You've brought some major-league charges against neither an Israeli government nor a policy but "the Jews." Now take the next step: show in real documentation showing that it's so. The whole thing: successful ethnic cleansing, denial of birthright, all the rest. Put names to the criminals; "the Jews" doesn't work in an indictment. List the characteristics of Apartheid and show how "this reality" [in Israel] is "one step beyond." What, you're speechless?

  • elixelx

    Wow, so when I go to BIG the shopping mall here in Karmiel near the Galillee and hear the language of the workers, the shoppers, the attendants, the owners–and it all Arabic to me–it's only then that I realise how apartheid must have worked for Muchiboy…he can't tell black from white!

  • waterwillows

    It is obivous to everyone except perhaps the turnips, that apartheid with Islam is the best solution in choices that are very limited. I am all for it.
    Take a look at the no-go areas that muslims impose on themselves and just love having it. They already fully accept the concept. Pretty much every western land they have moved to, they will always choose for themselves….apartheid.
    Let's make it offficial. We could learn to love it just as much.

  • Jim Johnson

    The solve the problem of the autocratic ministers leave his church and do not send him another penny. The Minister does not speak in the name of God. He is not a prophet .
    He is a sponge .

  • Beverley

    About the churches and the people who go to church … please note I did not call them Christians. Today there are millions of church members (not including cults) who have very little to no understanding of Bibly prophecy. These church members go to churches that teach 'Replacement Theology' they do not teach Bible prophecy and they look at prophetic scriptures as allegorical and not literal.

    They do not understand the importance of Israel to the God of Israel or God's REDEMPTIVE plan for Israel and the nations. They do not understand the bibical significance of what is happening today in Israel, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Russia & China. They do not have any biblical point of reference in which to understand. For those of us who understand Bible prophecy we see the significance of everything that is happening around Israel. Israel is God's time clock.

    Every Jew and every Christian should read about 'Replacement Thelogy' so that they can understand why some 'Christians' do not stand by Israel, and believe that the 'Church' is the new Jerusalem. This site may be able to help http://www.moriel.org

  • http://mypage.direct.ca/l/lbouchar/ SeaMystic

    As Mystics we have the capacity to discern the Luciferian influences in peoples thoughts. Though humans may occassionally stumble in that energy pattern and manifest it, Muchiboy dedication to the Left/Islamic activity is totally possed by those energy patterns.
    Remember that Lucifer is the great Liar and controls those who use his energy for power through continual lies.

    • scum

      i realy have no idea what this post means.

      • http://mypage.direct.ca/l/lbouchar/ SeaMystic

        You've walked into a WAR zone.

  • badaboo

    Do I need to supply you with past and present quotes from palestinians and muslims again , and force your face in the truth again ?
    As it stands you haven't refuted OR denied not one of those quotes I put under your nose , but only ignored them and attempted a rebuttal with more of your pathetic lies .

  • badaboo

    Right from wrong muchi-boy ? That concept eludes you . You are blind to obvious truths , so how in the heck can you pontificate about right and wrong , or black and whiter for that matter . You've willingly embraced the lies of your lot .
    THOU HYPOCRITE .

  • Muchiboy

    "That's just it. There never was an Arab majority in the areas of current Israel "proper" (as some refer to it)."

    I dare say Palestinians would argue the point,MixMChess.Various more independent sources then them and you I have referenced in the past would also point to different conclusions.Now there may well be some merit in what you say but I am not going to argue that this hectare had 2 Jews and 3 Arabs while this hectare had 3 Jews and 2 Arabs.
    I would say with some confidence that Israel at the time of Christ had a majority Jewish population,after the Bar Kokhba's revolt against the Roman Empire perhaps not,and prior to 1948 Palestine had a majority Arab population,and strangely enough after 1948 had a Jewish majority again.We might as well agree to disagree on this one,MixMChess.As to what we are calling a particular portion of land at this or that time,e.g.Israel,Palestine,Israel proper,etc. you know very well what we are referencing,the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea. Muchiboy

    P.S.If you receive any big boxes from Yemen at the local Synagogue for Gods sake don't open them!

    "The major conclusion is "The nature of the data do not permit precise conclusions about the Arab population of Palestine in Ottoman and British times"
    http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

    • ObamaYoMoma

      I dare say Palestinians would argue the point.

      Of course, they would argue the point. Besides being inculcated cradle to grave to love death more than they love life and to hate and murder Jews in the cause of Allah, they have also been inculcated like you have to believe that they were the indigenous population that had their land usurped by the colonizing Jews. Nevertheless, regardless of how you and they have been inculcated, it doesn’t make it true. A lie remains a lie, even when falsely represented as the truth.

      prior to 1948 Palestine had a majority Arab population,

      Only because the Brits started betraying their mandate and the Jews almost immediately, indeed, besides lopping off 78 percent of the future home of the Jewish state for the creation of Jordan, they severely limited the amount of Jews that could immigrate to Israel, while at the same time they also turned a blind eye to massive Arab illegal immigration from surrounding regions, which as a result caused untold numbers of Jews to be murdered in Hitler’s death camps.

      strangely enough after 1948 had a Jewish majority again.

      Of course, it did since the 1947 Partition Plan created two majority ethnic states, a majority Arab state and a majority Jewish state. However, since according to Islam, land once conquered by Islam must always remain a part of Islam, the Arabs refused the UN Partition Plan because the creation of Israel on land once conquered by Islam is an abomination, and thus the Arabs declared jihad against Israel as soon as Israel defied them and created a state.

      Nevertheless, Israel is not responsible for the Arab refugees that were later morphed into the so-called Palestinian people by the Soviet KGB in 1964, as those Arabs left at the behest of the Arab Higher Committee and their own leaders to make way for the Arab armies that collectively were going to annihilate the Jews. They had been told that they could return back to their homes in a few weeks to claim the land and property of the dead Jews as booty. Moreover, had not the Arabs waged a jihad of conquest against the nascent state of Israel, which, by the way, was an illegal war of aggression, no one would have ever been displaced.

      Meanwhile, in retaliation for their defeat at the hands of the Israelis, the Arabs then ethnically cleansed approximately 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews from their countries with little more than the shirts on their backs, while confiscating their property and murdering thousands of them in pogroms in the process. However, unlike the Arabs, Israel didn’t abandon those ethnically cleansed Jews and make them permanent perpetual refugees, they took in every one of them that wanted to immigrate to Israel.

      In any event, the notion that if a Palestinian state is created it will somehow stabilize the Middle East and solve all other problems is utterly absurd. The real reality is the jihad being waged against Israel is a lesser jihad of the greater global jihad at large and like the greater global jihad it is also permanent. Hence, the attainment of peace between Israel and the proxies of Dar al Islam, the so-called Palestinians, is totally impossible.

      According to Islam, the jihad against Israel will continue perpetually until Sharia is eventually imposed on the Jews, just like the greater global jihad will continue perpetually until Islam eventually subsumes the entire world via the imposition of Sharia. The only time there can be peace is after the entire world belongs to Islam. Until then, there can be no peace.

      • http://mypage.direct.ca/l/lbouchar/ SeaMystic

        I agree with you on 99% of your points, but I firmly believe that we must destroy Islam for peace, as long as this pestilence exists there will always be war.

        check: http://www.petitiononline.com/MYSTIC/petition.htm

        • ObamaYoMoma

          With respect to your post, I think an all out war between the unbeliever world and the parasitic Islamic world would be ill advised. I think a better solution would be for the non-Islamic world to ban and expel all Muhammadans that have migrated to their respective countries, then for the non-Islamic world to collectively confiscate the oil wealth and oil assets of the parasitic Islamic world. Otherwise, the parasitic Islamic world will continue using their oil wealth and oil assets to wage jihad per the strictures of Islam forever.

          In the interim the most immediate threats would have to be eliminated, i.e., the Pakistani nuclear weapons arsenal and nuclear weapons program would have to be destroyed, and also the Iranian nuclear weapons program would have to be eliminated as well. Finally, the last step of the equation is for the non-Islamic world to collectively isolate the Islamic world.

          Hence, since because of Islam the Muhammadans living in the parasitic Islamic world are incapable of producing anything on their own, the parasitic Islamic world would effectively be rendered into abject poverty relative to the West. Then if the Islamic world is left alone to fester under these conditions of abject poverty relative to the West, after only a few generations Islam would become delegitimized as the overwhelming vast majority of the Muhammadans would cast off its yoke.

          By the way, I signed the petition to ban Islam.

    • MixMChess

      "I dare say Palestinians would argue the point,MixMChess.Various more independent sources then them and you I have referenced in the past would also point to different conclusions.Now there may well be some merit in what you say but I am not going to argue that this hectare had 2 Jews and 3 Arabs while this hectare had 3 Jews and 2 Arabs."

      Palestinians can argue some of the specifics but the general facts are quite clear. At the time of the 1947 partition resolution, the Arabs may have had a majority in "W. Palestine as a whole — 1.2 million Arabs." But the Jews, approximately 600,000, "were a majority in the area allotted to them by the resolution, and in Jerusalem."

      These figures all come from independent British sources from the time. You can piss and moan all you want but Israel was not created at the expense of the Palestinians, no set of facts can logically point to that conclusion.

      "and prior to 1948 Palestine had a majority Arab population,and strangely enough after 1948 had a Jewish majority again. We might as well agree to disagree on this one,MixMChess."

      You can disagree, but you also refuse to actually look at the population statistics and facts from the time of that Israel was created. See ObamaYoMaMa's post for the free history lesson. If you want to talk intelligently about this issue you cannot ignore statistics and facts that don't fit into your warped world view. It only makes you look more like a bigot and intellectually dishonest.

  • Muchiboy

    "…blacks were not allowed to walk on the white side of the street .
    Never in at least 15 visits to Israel between 1966 and 1993 had I seen anything that even came close "

    The whites in RSA in their frustrated attempt to hold power and privilege used Apartheid as their ultimately failed tool.The Jews in Palestine used the more effective and successful but equally evil tool of ethnic cleansing to hold power and privilege through a majority.The Boers could have learned much from you Zionists,Badaboo.Muchiboy

    • ObamaYoMoma

      Vilifying and demonizing Jews in order to incite hatred and violence against them by falsely claiming that they ethnically cleansed the Arabs in order to manufacture a majority makes you a certified anti-Semitic bigot. Especially, when history and reality unequivocally prove otherwise.

      Meanwhile, while you also vilify and demonize Jews in order to incite hatred and violence against them by falsely accusing them of being an apartheid state that oppresses Arabs at the same time you ignore incessant terrorist attacks perpetrated by so-called Palestinians, all Islamic states, in which you side with and apologize for, are all guilty of exactly what it is you are falsely accusing the Israeli Jews of being guilty of, in that they all practice apartheid and often violent oppression against females and unbelievers. Not to mention that they also restrict the freedom of religion, the freedom of speech, and the freedom of conscience, while incorporating draconian punishments such as flogging, stonings, amputations, and beheadings. In other words, you have become so obsessed and blinded by hate for the Israeli Jews that you have totally inverted reality.

      As a matter of fact, your obsessive adherence to moral and cultural relativism has indeed all but rendered you insane.

  • Muchiboy

    " back to display your gratuitous anti-semitism "

    Again,for the hundredth time,anti-Zionism is not the equivalent of Antisemitism.Except in your head.

    " and a common mechanism no doubt amongst muslims "

    I'm Catholic.

    " comparing zionism to apartheid , and trhe usual nazi
    comparisons ."

    If the kippah fits,badaboo.

    P.S.Where do you guys get these names?

    • MixMChess

      "Again,for the hundredth time,anti-Zionism is not the equivalent of Antisemitism.Except in your head."

      Wrong. Criticizing Israel does not necessarily make someone anti-Semitic. However, where legitimate critics accept Israel’s right to exist, anti-Semites do not. That's you pal. "Anti-Semites use double standards when they criticize Israel, for example, denying Israelis the right to pursue their legitimate claims while encouraging the Palestinians to do so." That's you again. Except you only want Palestinians to pursue claims against Israel while conveniently ignoring the far greater crimes against Palestinians committed by Jordanians and Syrians. "Anti-Semites deny Israel the right to defend itself, and ignore Jewish victims, while blaming Israel for pursuing their murderers." You again, hmmm… I'm noticing a pattern here. "Anti-Semites describe Israelis using pejorative terms and hate-speech, suggesting, for example, that they are “racists” or “Nazis.”" That is definitely you, trying to defame Jews and inflame the sense against Israel.

      Bottom line, questioning Israel's legitimacy and its right to exist is ALWAYS antisemitic.

      "If the kippah fits,badaboo."

      Gee, and you wonder why people think your a vile and disgusting Anti-Semite?

  • badaboo

    Like I said before muchiboy , the words zionist and jew , to muslkims are the same , with of course the use of "zionist " merely being code for jew . LOL…a code word that everyone knows precisely, the arab /muslim/ anti-semite – meaning of .
    -and your snide remark about "not opening big boxes " proves exactly who and what you are .

    • Muchiboy

      "and your snide remark about "not opening big boxes " proves exactly who and what you are"

      I apologize,badaboo,but I come by my dark humor honestly,or dishonestly as the case may be.I was a combat medic in a dirty little war,then an EMT,and for the past 25 years I have worked in a federal prison.Again,sorry,no harm meant.I owe you one.Muchiboy

  • badaboo

    I doubt that very much muchi-muslim boy , you see liars never remember there words , in past postings you used the word "nakba " I know of no Catholics who would even know , let alone use that term .
    Who ya kidding muchi ?

    • Muchiboy

      "I doubt that very much muchi-muslim boy , you see liars never remember there words , in past postings you used the word "nakba " I know of no Catholics who would even know , let alone use that term .
      Who ya kidding muchi ?"

      Why would I lie,badaboo?I've told you before my maternal grandfather was borne in Bethlehem,Palestine and emigrated to Canada in the late 1800's.I never thought he was Catholic,but maybe he was.More likely the woman he married (my maternal grandmother) was Catholic.Muchiboy

  • badaboo

    I dont absolve you from your anti-semitism ,which already displayed and proven by your spoken words , and by which no amount of backpeddling or facetious platitudes will change. The fact which you already have well established , by your own tongue and loose words, can not be recalled , except before the eyes of gullible fools .
    Save your shallow and empty "shalom" muchi-boy . My advice to you, before embarking on your next charade is , guard your words from the onset of the discussion . Was it Mark Twain who said " I never have to remember what I say when I am telling the truth " ? I could have the author wrong but not the saying.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    But they are surely guilty of the equivalent in bad behavior and crimes against humanity and the Palestinian people.

    Actually, those crimes of humanity you falsely accuse Israeli Jews of only exist within the dark recesses of your incredibly mixed up mind. The only thing the Israeli Jews are guilty of is fighting for freedom and defending themselves against a jihad of conquest perpetrated by Dar al Islam perpetually that is meant to either annihilate or subjugate them into harsh dhimmitude.

    In addition, Israel punishes to the fullest extent of the law any Israeli Jew found guilty in a court of law of committing a crime against so-called Palestinians, whereas the so-called Palestinians, on the other hand, glorify terrorists and suicide/homicide bombers that murder civilian noncombatant Jews in cold blood and name streets, schools, libraries, and public buildings in their honor to memorialize them. They also start inculcating so-called Palestinian children to hate and kill Jews cradle to grave beginning with early childhood TV programming and in their schools.

    The Palestinian people are only "so called" by you and yours.Interestingly,and paradoxically,they exist as a nation because of Zionism itself.As a people,the Palestinians were forged in the hell of ethnic cleansing.

    BS! The Soviet KGB in Moscow morphed the Arabs into the so-called Palestinian people deprived of their inalienable national rights by the Israeli Jews as a misinformation and propaganda campaign in 1964. It was one of many misinformation campaigns run by the Soviet KGB.

    In fact, it was Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceauşescu that later convinced Arafat that if he presented his jihad as a national movement as opposed to a jihad of conquest that he would gain much more legitimacy, and, of course, it worked like a charm as the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) hijacked UN soon recognized the PLO and Arafat as the head of the so-called Palestinian people that were created out of whole cloth in Moscow in 1964.

    Anyway, the real reality is there are no national rights, inalienable or otherwise, because there are no so-called Palestinian people, as the real reality is the so-called Palestinian people that were created out of whole cloth are also the proxies of Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and their sole purpose is to wear down Israel until the final assault can come.

    You know sort of like the so-called Peace Process, which is also another very successful misinformation campaign (taqiyya campaign) used by Dar al Islam to get useful idiots, the Quartet in this case, to weaken Israel.

    My concern is presently limited to the crimes committed by the Jews against the Palestinian people.The most just and fair solution would be a single state solution for those who could forgive and forget and live together for the benefit of all,country and region.Sometimes,more so then not,what is most just and fair doesn't always work.

    The reality is those alleged crimes you falsely accuse Israeli Jews of only exist within the dark recesses of your incredibly morally confused mind. In any event, can you point to a single Muhammadan country anywhere in the world where the unbeliever kafir infidels living there under Muhammadan rule aren’t harshly persecuted and often violently oppressed as dhimmis?

    Thus, in your incredibly morally confused mind, the most just and fair solution according to you, is one in which the Israelis Jews not only lose their freedom, but also one in which the Jews are returned back to their historical state and into their rightful place of harsh persecution and often violently oppression. I don’t think that the Israeli Jews finally tasting freedom after all they have endured throughout history will ever agree to return back to subjugation alive. I believe they will fight and die fighting for their right to freedom before that ever happens to them again and I can’t say that I blame them. I wouldn’t wish harsh dhimmitude on my worse enemy.

    Neither Canada nor America is a Muslim country,nor likely to be.

    According to who, you, and I don’t understand how this is even relevant to Israel? Nevertheless, if it were left up to leftwing political correct useful idiot cultural relativists like you, both countries could very well become Islamic in a matter of time.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    Most immigrants to Canada come for a better way of life and do leave the worst and some say the best of their cultures behind.Not all,but Canada and America have been successful to date in integrating most immigrants into our way of life.We are tolerant and lawful enough to deal with the negatives.

    Not Muhammadans. The truth is no country has ever successfully assimilated and integrated Muhammadans. Indeed, take a look around, everywhere mass Muhammadan immigration has taken place around the world without exception the majority of the Muhammadan immigrants have refused to assimilate and integrate and formed Muhammadan no-go zones ruled by Sharia in direct contravention to the laws of the states in which they reside. The truth is Muhammadans don’t immigrate to assimilate and integrate. Instead, they immigrate to eventually subjugate and dominate, as Muhammadan immigration is a form of stealth and deceptive non-violent demographic conquest the Muslim Brotherhood calls civilizational jihad.

    Israelis are between a rock and a hard place.I wish it were otherwise.But so too are the Palestinians,and for my part,I believe the Jews mostly responsible,and therefore accountable.Furthermore,I believe there is still good will among the Palestinian people.While they have much reason to resent the Jews and the West,they have not been so sympathetic towards the likes of Al Qaeda.That may (have) change,and the more prolonged the suffering the more bitterness to follow.

    The reality is you don’t have the first clue with respect to the jihad being waged against Israel and also with respect to the global jihad being waged against the entire non-Islamic world by the camp of Islam except for the taqiyya you have swallowed like a useful idiot. Indeed, every one of the ludicrous libels you have cited to vilify and demonize Israeli Jews in order to incite hatred and violence against them is false and totally absurd. Nevertheless, like a record stuck on stupid, you keep spouting them regardless even after being exposed to the truth. Hence, it couldn’t be more obvious that your obsessive anti-Semitic bigotry is deliberate and even if it were not, stupidity would hardly suffice to be an excuse.

    Also, with respect to Islam, so-called Palestinian sentiments, and AQ it couldn’t be anymore obvious that you are totally oblivious, which is why it was so easy for them to exploit your too numerous ignorance’s to mention to the hilt.

    As to any antisemitism on my part,all I can say is that any Palestinian or Israeli who cannot live peacefully together are welcome to my country,my province ,my town ,my neighborhood and my street.However,I would prefer that any Fundamentalist Islamist or Zionist chose another next door neighbor.Shalom.Muchiboy

    Sorry, but that is about as lame as it gets. The reality is you don’t have a clue about Jews, Israel, and Zionism except for the lame Islamic taqiyya and anti-Semitic garbage you have swallowed like a useful idiot, and you couldn’t be anymore oblivious with respect to Islam and the very existential threat it represents to freedom in the world. In other words, your mind has been almost completely eaten away by your adherence to moral and cultural relativism.

  • Beverley

    Munchiboy and badaboo – The Roman Catholic Church believe in 'Replacement Theology' as well as The United Methodist Church, 'Evangelical' Lutheran Church, Presbyterian, The Lutheran Church, Greek Orthodox, and some Baptist and many many more a brilliant article of 12 pages to read http://www.ldolphin.org/replacement

  • Beverley

    All Jews and Christians should read this. The opening paragraph …."Perhaps you have heard of the term Replacement Theology. However, if you look it up in a dictionary of Church history, you will not find it listed as a systematic study. Rather, it is a DOCTRINAL TEACHING that originated in the EARLY CHURCH. It became the fertile soil from which Christian ANTI-SEMITISM grew and has infected the Church for nearly 1,900 years". http://www.ldolphin.org/replacement

  • scum

    you're perhaps the only one on FPM to have noticed Castro's comment. But instead of Swindle or Horowitz applauding Castro, they basically ignored it.

    • MixMChess

      No, I have noted Castro's comment before as have others. I don't think Swinldle, Horowitz or anyone should applaud Castro given the man's terrible crimes and violent past. I am sure his comments were ignored as to not glorify him. I don't think he has redeemed himself simply by making one correct and moral statement after a history of lies and venom. That said, it is interesting that a monster like Castro recognizes that Ahmadinijad is essentially the next Hitler.

  • scum

    i saw nothing in muchiboy's post that suggests he's a muslim. In fact, based on his history and posts, one doubts it.

  • MixMChess

    "My concern is presently limited to the crimes committed by the Jews against the Palestinian people.The most just and fair solution would be a single state solution for those who could forgive and forget and live together for the benefit of all,country and region.Sometimes,more so then not,what is most just and fair doesn't always work."

    This is the probably one of the most glaring examples of your antisemitism. You only care about supposed crimes committed by JEWS. All of Jordan was supposed to be the Palestinian homeland, but is instead occupied by Jordan. Of course you don't call on Jordan to return land to Palestinians. In fact the Jordanians in one month (Black September) slaughtered over 25,000 Palestinian civilians which is over 3 times as many of the Palestinian terrorist and combatants that Israel has killed since 1948 to defend itself against Palestinian murder and terrorism. No cries from you to drag the Jordan to the ICC.

    Just admit it, you don't really care about the Palestinians, you just care about defaming Jews and destroying Israel – plain and simple.

  • badaboo

    , that notion got it's start at the council of Nicea , and any earnest exogetic reading /study of thge Christian Bible , proves this position is ERROR . Isogetic interpretation , by Wellhausen "school ' scholars , has lead to this anti-semitc position that christian sects have taken up over the years .However both have played a role . But today , in MY OPINION , there is something else at play , a cowardice on their part to take a position against an entity they fear , for these groups and sects do not fear the jews , the jews will not blow up their churches or assasinate their members . A strange form of the Stockholm Syndrome . A desire to be on the correct side of what they percieve as the universal world position , a desire to NOT be against an overwhelming enemy which they believe will eventually prevail .In the case of the Roman Catholic Church , it is the fear of greater persecution of its members and missions throughout the world .A position which is really anethema to its own basic teachings .And in reality , it's members are ALREADSY being persecuted throughout the muslim dominated countries of the world.

  • badaboo

    Why is the Roman Cathpolic Church silent on the plight of the Copts in Egypt ? Or the outright persecution of it's churches in Pakistan , Algeria , the Sudan , or Nigeria ?

  • Muchiboy

    "if the Jews were so evil then why did they BEG the Arabs to stay"

    Don't know.Could have had something to do with certain activities of Irgun,Stern Gang,Deir Yassin,war,killings,fear,massacres,terror.War produces refuges,MixMChess..Palestinians weren't the only people to flee the terrors of battle and war.Look at your own people fleeing the Nazis.Whenever I cite the hundreds of thousands of European refugees fleeing the Nazis to settle in Palestine I try to be understanding,even though it displaced similar numbers of settled Palestinians.Ron

    • MixMChess

      "Don't know.Could have had something to do with certain activities of Irgun,Stern Gang,Deir Yassin,war,killings,fear,massacres,terror."

      More lies. The Irgun and Stern gang were created to protect Jews in response to Arab aggression, murder and terror. The Irgun was created in the aftermath of the 1929 riots where over 130 Jews were murdered by Arabs. The Stern gang (essentially an offshoot of the Irgun) was formed as a reaction to the Arab revolts of the 30's (roughly 1936 – 1939), which had resulted in rioting and violence against Jews – 80 Jews were murdered in 1936 alone.

      The Deir Yassin massacre is also a myth. After a long and fierce battle with military combatants in Deir Yassin, the Irgun allowed the International Red Cross and the press (such as the New York Times) to tour the town and neither noted any "hint of a massacre."

      Like all Palestinian claims, this was a deliberate propaganda ploy. Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted he fabricated the atrocity claims: “We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews.” Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, “This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror.” Woops, guess their ploy backfired, huh?

      The Palestinians knew, despite their rhetoric to the contrary, "the Jews were not trying to annihilate them; otherwise, they would not have been allowed to evacuate Tiberias, Haifa or any of the other towns captured by the Jews."

      Interestingly enough, a few days after the reports from Deir Yassin were published, an Arab force ambushed a "Jewish convoy on the way to Hadassah Hospital, killing 77 Jews, including doctors, nurses, patients" and injuring another 23 civilians. Funny, that this massacre is never mentioned by those who are "quick" to laent on Deir Yassin. This still ignores the more than 500 Jews murdered in the first four months after the partition decision in 1947 alone.

    • MixMChess

      "Whenever I cite the hundreds of thousands of European refugees fleeing the Nazis to settle in Palestine I try to be understanding,even though it displaced similar numbers of settled Palestinians."

      Wrong again, unfortunately the number Jews escaping from Europe into "Palestine" were relatively low. It is pretty well documented that only about 80,000 – 90,000 Jews escaped Poland and resettled in the "Palestine." Looking at the population statistics and trends from this period this is relatively clear. Even still, the Jews that did arrive settled in the Jewish-owned majority areas which never required the displacement of any Arabs in the first place as you falsely claim.

    • Naftush

      "Don't know"? People who flip accusations of genocide in all directions … no, in one specific direction, at "the Jews" … should make it their business to know. Read early Zionist literature to realize that Zionism fixated on attaining statehood only after confronting overtly genocidal Arab violence. Read Ephraim Karsh and Benny Morris and see the cynical betrayal of Palestinian Arabs by their own elites. Half of the "refugees" left in pursuit of their own interests before Deir Yassin. Observe Arab members of Israel's parliament spewing rhetoric like yours and getting away with it under the protection of Israel's courts. Find me a "European refugee" who displaced a Palestinian Arab as he fled "the terrors of battle and war," as you term the Holocaust.

  • badaboo

    muchi-boy "the predictable " …..again the comparison to the nazis , in one form or another , filled with revisionist history of the arab EXIT from Israel in '48.
    WHY did they leave ? At the behest of their arab brothers who warned them to leave lest they be destroyed along with the jews and the new Israeli State …..and of course they listened , and OBEYED , with the full expectation of returning when the destruction of the Jews and Israel was completed But wait …that never happened did it muchi , did it ?
    How many LEFT ISRAEL OF THEIR OWN ACCORD , heeding the warning and holdsing that expectation ? Approximately 360,000 muchi-boy , they were not fearing terror by Israel but rather terror and fear ofcollateral destruction by their arab brothers in their war against Israel . More jews were kicked out Iraq , than arabs leaving Israel .

  • badaboo

    ….and after the Five Warring arab nations got smacked down , arabs were still invited to return , but their hatred of jews and Israel overcame any common sense they may have had . And HOW were they treated by their arab brothers , as they were "refugees " by their own volition? They were relegated to refugee camps , refused citizenship in the host countries , not allowed to work or own property , but to languish there as poster boys , as example of what the "jews did to them " . Which is why tghey revolted in Lebanon , which is why Jordan's King killed 10,000 of them when they revolted …remember Black September muchiboy ? Revisionism has it downsides muchi , one of them is that it is easily countered with the historical record available in the public domain to all willing to seek it out .That is ALL who are willing in earnest , and that of course EXCLUDES you.

  • muchiboy

    Likely there is nothing any of us could say that would result in a significant change in opinion here.Some facts may be clarified,another perspective explained but nothing game changing.Still,being exposed to another's opinion,informed or not,is always a challenge to one's critical thinking.There are always new things to learn,references to source.Right or wrong,in between and on the fence,debate beats force and intimidation hands down.Again,thanks to FP for the opportunity to voice ones difference of opinion.God Bless America.Muchiboy

  • badaboo

    Oh my , what fractured fairey-tales you engage in muchiboy . And san analogy to jews fleeing the nazis ! Typical arab/muslim revisionism . Trouble with your revisionism muchiboy , is that History in the public domain , readily accessable to anyone capable of reading and comprehending , KNOWS that such an analogy , is based in your own anti-semitic views . The arabs who left Israel in '48 , who are TODAY the so called "palestinians " left of their own volition , at the behest and warning of their arab brothers who were about to attack the newly formed State . Jews in EWurope were in fact detained by the nazis for the expressed purpose of extermination . How dumb is anyone, to present an analogfy such as yours ?

  • WilliamJamesWard

    Leftist Churches are Christian in name only, they are apostate.
    For the Minnesota Methodists, I think there is something terrible in
    their drinking water. They would fault Jesus for being a Jew……William

  • Beverley

    They would fault Jesus for being a Jew … how correct you are!!! And what is more if Jesus preached the way most of these preachers do He would never have been crucifyed. They are definitely leading the charge of the apostate church.

  • muchiboy

    As a non-partisan onlooker;

    Americans will be going (Obama)to the polls again,and while it is a (Democrats)right,it is no less a privilege,(Pelosi).Remember,(Democratic Party)while it is important to vote for the right,I mean left,you know what I mean,(Democratic)party,it is more important to vote(Democratic).God Bless(Democratic) America.Obamaboy aka Muchiboy

    P.S.Canada has your back.

  • muchiboy

    "You've brought some major-league charges against neither an Israeli government nor a policy but "the Jews."

    For the most part,I am cognizant of just such a charge,Naftush,and purposely avoid the pejorative,instead referencing Israelis or Zionists,mostly in recognition and respect of the many Jews who acknowledge the pain of the Palestinian people and the part played by Zionism,as well as the always present dangers of Antisemitism.
    However,as with the unconscionable acts perpetrated against the Jews in WWII and the role played by and culpability of the German people themselves,not only the Nazis,at some point or level we have to acknowledge that the Jews were the main benefactors of Zionism,therefore the use of "the Jews" is legitimate,if regrettable in this limited and qualified context. Muchiboy

    • MixMChess

      "However,as with the unconscionable acts perpetrated against the Jews in WWII and the role played by and culpability of the German people themselves,not only the Nazis,at some point or level we have to acknowledge that the Jews were the main benefactors of Zionism,therefore the use of "the Jews" is legitimate,if regrettable in this limited and qualified context."

      What a load of crap. Non-Jewish Zionists far outnumber Jewish Zionists (there are only 13 million Jews worldwide). One could very well argue that Western Democracies are some of the main benefactors of Israel, not necessarily the Jews. You are simply using the Palestinian issue as a stick to beat the "Jews." Face it you're a filthy antisemite and a liar.

      Oh and as a pro-Palestinian supporter, I suppose you are culpable of the murder, rape and terrorism that the Palestinians have inflicted on the Jews and the World for the last 80 years. Perhaps the Israeli government should target you?

  • MixMChess

    "Just as in any act or policy of Genocide,the nature of the crime is one against the "race,the group,the collective"e.g.the Jews,the Tutsi,the Armenians.Similarly,when one race,group,or collective engages in collective acts of Genocide,(or ethnic cleansing),it is reasonable and even mandatory,if not indictable,to reference i.e.blame, the responsible and culpable collective,be they Jew,Hutu,or Turk."

    First of all, you don't even know or understand the legal definition of genocide. Second, despite your incessant lying, neither the "Jews" nor the Israelis have ever committed genocide. I suppose you'll do or say just about anything to defame Jews huh?

    "Because of the effective Ethnic Cleansing of the Palestinian People by the Jewish people there is unlikely to be the physical or moral equivalent of the RaInbow Nation.Instead we are left with a Jewish nation and the Palestinian refugees."

    Wrong as usual idiiot. Israel doesn't commit ethnic cleansing, that is the practice of the Arabs and Palestinians. You don't have any shred of evidence that Israel ever committed ethnic cleansing of anyone.

    By the way, Israel is more of a "rainbow" nation than S. Africa could ever dream of… 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs who have equal rights under the law. The Palestinians have already refused to allow any Jews to be citizens in their future state. Gays in the middle east literally flee to Israel for sanctuary. Don't forget, Jerusalem had a gay mayor). Hamas on the other hand executes gay men. Israel is one of the most diverse nations in the world and is the most diverse nation in the Middle East by far.

  • Muchiboy

    "Wrong as usual idiiot."

    In less then a week I've gone from moron to idiot.I especially like the following definition I came across.

    IDIOT, n. A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant and controlling. The Idiot's activity is not confined to any special field of thought or action, but "pervades and regulates the whole." He has the last word in everything; his decision is unappealable.