Abandoning Israel

Matt Gurney is a columnist and editor at Canada’s National Post. Follow him on Twitter: @mattgurney


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The U.S.S. George Washington, a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier capable of projecting more combat power than most of the world’s air forces, is due to arrive in South Korea today (Thursday, July 22). Once there, along with its three escorts, it will take part in military exercises with the South Korean fleet, in a show of military strength to deter any further acts of madness by the alarmingly unstable North Koreans. This show of military strength, along with visits by the secretaries of Defense and State, are a powerful demonstration of American commitment to South Korean security and of solidarity with its threatened ally. So much so, in fact, that it makes the Obama Administration’s standoffishness with, and bullying of, Israel all the more disturbing.

It would be folly to deny the fact that the South Koreans are under a clear, direct threat from the North. Ever since the North launched an unprovoked attack against the South Korean warship Cheonan, the Korean peninsula, divided between the liberal-democratic South and the brutal dictatorship of Kim Jong-il’s North, has teetered on the brink of war. The evidence implicating the North in the murder of 46 South Korean sailors is ironclad, and the North has responded to their international shaming predictably — with frantic denials and threats of war.

During these precarious developments, the Americans stood resolutely by their allies. The Americans were quick to dispatch naval experts to help inspect the wreckage of the Cheonan, provided full diplomatic support and made clear that military aggression by the North would be met with a united allied response. Whether or not anything can deter the North is difficult to say; given the long-standing rumors that Kim Jong-il is in ill health, attempting to intuit the motives of what could well be a destabilizing regime is virtually impossible. Nonetheless, the Administration’s loyalty is to be commended.

The Israelis, meanwhile, also face serious threats to their security, and arguably, a greater existential threat. While the North Korean nuclear program is worrisome, one can only hope that the North would view such weapons “properly” –  as diplomatic bargaining chips and a deterrent against an attack by a militarily superior foe. To be blunt, it is unlikely that the North would use nuclear weapons against the South, due to both the certainty of radioactive contamination and the absurdity of destroying the territory you wish to reunite with. Israel, however, must assume that should the same people who have repeatedly called for their physical annihilation gain the means to accomplish their oft-stated goal, they will not hesitate to destroy the Jewish state.

Israel is certainly preparing for the worst. It is moving full speed ahead with its Iron Dome missile defense system, continues to push for international diplomatic action against Iran, strives as always to hold its military to the highest possible standards of behavior and is continually reaching out to Washington. That last step, admittedly necessary after an Israeli gaffe embarrassed Vice President Biden during a visit to Israel, has been frustrated by the Administration’s clear hostility to America’s long-time ally.

While Washington still pays lip service to the importance of the Israeli alliance to America’s strategic interests and to Israel’s right to defend itself, and in spite of the continuing close relationships directly between the two militaries, it is obvious that the Administration’s desire to been seen as more neutral by the Muslim world, as part of President Obama’s plan to reach out and reset American relations with Middle East, is preventing America from making the strong shows of support for Israeli security that it is happy to make for the South Koreans.

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  • http://www.wastewatchersinc.org Richard Ahern

    President Obama-Israel The biggest mistake he will ever make- The Lords is in control
    wwwwastewatchersinc.org

  • ajnn

    "Such a display of American confidence " – good idea, but only if Obama wants Israel to survive.

    • ze-ev ben jehudah

      Mark Twain visited Palestine in 1867 and says this about it: Nothing
      moves more in the valley of Israel. There is no more independent village
      within a radius of 50 km in all directions. There are three small groups
      of Bedouin tents, but no single occupancy. One can travel for miles
      without a single human being to encounter. Galilee is an unpopulated
      desert. The ruins of Capernaum Tiberias, slumbering under a dozen
      funeral palmen.We arrived in Tabor and still saw no people throughout
      the route. Nazareth has vanished, as if in ruins Jericho Joshua, s
      miracle 3000 yr earlier still in force. Bethlehem and Bethany have
      nothing that the Saviour, s presence recalls. No living soul where once
      the shepherds at night slept on the ground. Bethsaida and Chorzin of
      the disappeared. Several passengers have shown the same list of
      Palestine to the Jews of the first Aliya started to replant and cultivate the
      land and a reconstruction. The British Lord Shaftesbury 1884 note:
      Palestine is a land without people for a people without land. The extreme
      Palestinian claim that in 1880 there was a Palestinian people, some
      even claim that a Palestinian nation existed that were driven by the
      Zionist invasion. The entire population of Palestine was no more than
      half one million that is now what it is today Israel – the West Bank and
      Gaza Strip during the first aliyah in 1880.Then when the first alya,those
      who fled the pogroms from Russia,Poland and Roumenia,to Palastine
      started they were able to buy land,mostly swamp erea'' s,from landowners
      who did not live in or on the land itselves.And after the holocaust they could
      with the support of the U.N. claim 10% of the whole of Palastine as their
      own and in 1948 they could proclaim the state of Israel.The Arabs and the
      Palestinians have until now denied them the right to in peace. At last I will
      recomend to you;read the book from Alan Dershowitz "the case for Israel
      Filled with irefutable truths

      • ze-ev ben jehudah

        Sorry for the bad translation.I tried to translate from Hebrew to English.
        Not so very well done.

        • teq

          No problem. Your message came across loud and clear. Palestine was an abandoned desert. The Jews made an oasis out of the desert. The Arabs want to drive out the Jews and claim the oasis for themselves.
          If the Jews were driven out, how long before the Arabs would turn it back into a desert? I guess ten years. Twenty at the most.

        • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/intrcptr intrcptr

          No apologies needed, brother. Your truthful intent could not be any clearer.

          Baruch HaShem Adonai.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Reason_For_Life Reason_For_Life

    From all of the noise about the Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem there is one question that I have never heard addressed – Who actually owns the land upon which the settlements are built and how was ownership acquired? Was it purchased? Was it seized from its rightful owners by the Israeli equivalent of eminent domain? Was it unowned or abandoned?

    I don't want an answer along the lines of "Jews have lived here for 5000 years" or "Palestinians have families going back 2000 years". I really don't care whose relatives milked goats or butchered sheep here in prehistoric times. I'm not interested in any kind of tribal or ancestral claims.

    I want a straight answer. What individuals, either Jewish or Muslim (or Chinese for that matter) actually can make a serious title claim to this land of the kind that would stand up in an American court?

    • ObamaYoMoma

      The land belongs to Israel. In reality no one owns better title to Judea and Samaria (the so-called West Bank) than Israel. You can go back to the Balfour Declaration approved by the League of Nations, which set aside the land after the defeat of the old Ottoman Empire in WWI for the creation of a Jewish state, as the Arabs refused all compromises to divide the land equitably for the creation of an Arab state because they wanted all the land for themselves.

      You can also go back to the 1967 Six Day War when Israel was the victim of an illegal war of aggression prosecuted by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq. Israel captured Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the Golan Heights among other land during the course of defending itself from a genocidal war of aggression that was not only illegal but was also meant to annihilate the Jewish state and replace it with an Islamic one.

      Hence, per the law of nations, which has long been established in international law, land captured by a country during the course of defending itself from an illegal war of aggression belongs to the defending country at the end of the war.

      The purpose of this law is to deter bigger and stronger countries from aggressively attacking weaker and smaller countries for the purpose of territorial conquest, or from countries banding together to aggressively attack another country for the purpose of conquest. Hence, the land, per the law of nations, also belongs to Israel because the UN Security Council ruled after the war that Israel was the defending country and the Arab states that attacked Israel were the aggressors.

      Nevertheless, the 56 countries of the OIC have done a terrific at job at revising history and as a result, most people in the world today believe that Israel stole the land.

      In any event, irrespective of some of the finer nuances of the conflict, the conflict against Israel in reality is a jihad for conquest. Furthermore, that jihad against Israel, like the global jihad is too, is permanent.

      Additionally, the peace process is bogus and little more than a pretext to weaken Israel. The Dar al Islam will never compromise with Israel or any other kafir infidel state for that matter.

      And to confirm what I’m saying is true, just take a look around the Dar al Islam. Everywhere the Dar al Islam borders a non-Islamic country, you will see jihad being waged against that bordering non-Islamic state, and in every case, as in Israel, the Muslims always present themselves as the victims, as Muhammad said, “War is deceit.” However, just the opposite is the case, the Muslims are always the aggressors, however, they will be more than willing to play up to your naïve sympathies if you let them.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Reason_For_Life Reason_For_Life

        This is exactly the answer that I did not want. I don't care about tribal land claims. I don't care about what government rules the area. I am only interested in exactly what individual or partnership or corporation owns the land upon which the settlements are being built and how that individual or group acquired the land.

        One of the reasons that I loathe the entire Middle East is that the only way that most of the people of this region can think is in terms of tribes and tribal claims. It is the most fiercely anti-individualist region on the planet.

        I did not ask who governs the region. I specifically asked what individuals own the land upon which the settlements are being built. No one that I have heard of has ever said something along the lines of "Moishe is building a home on the land that he bought from Ahmed".

        Individual ownership is the important aspect of this to me. If an individual is building a home on land that he acquired in a voluntary deal with the previous legitimate owner then he is the person that I support. It doesn't matter if he is an Israeli or a Palestinian. It only matters that he is the legitimate owner of the land.

        The reason that the conflict in the Middle East will not end until all of the tribes but one are exterminated is the inability of people to see each other as individuals. If you want to see the ultimate end of "identity politics" you can see it in the Middle East.

        • ObamaYoMoma

          Actually, the entire settlement issue is a pretext used by the Dar al Islam for propaganda purposes (taqiyya). As for as the Dar al Islam is concerned, the entire state of Israel represents an illegal settlement, as land that once belonged to the Dar al Islam must always remain a part of the Dar al Islam. Hence, the jihad against Israel is permanent, as land that once belonged to the Dar al Islam becomes a priority and must be re-conquered as soon as possible.

          Israel first became a part of the Dar al Islam in the seventh century and remained a part of the Dar al Islam until the Ottoman Turks were defeated in WWI. At that time, the land was carved up, which created what is the modern Middle East. Therefore, according to international law, Israel has as much right to exist as the surrounding Islamic states that were also carved out of the old Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI.

          However, the problem is Muslims don’t recognize international law or any other law, for that matter, other than Sharia Law, and per Sharia Law, once land becomes part of the Dar al Islam it must always remain a part of the Dar al Islam. Therefore, re-conquering former Dar al Islam land becomes a priority incumbent upon the entire Islamic ummah. Which means that not only Israel must be re-conquered as soon as possible, but also most of India, Spain, Sicily, Greece, the Balkans, and parts of Eastern Europe must also be re-conquered as soon as possible.

          Furthermore, per Sharia law, Muslims also don’t recognize international borders or sovereignty, as they are mandated to eventually conquer the entire Dar al Harb (domain of war) via the imposition of Sharia in order to convert it into the Dar al Islam (domain of Islam). Only then can there be peace. Hence, the jihad against Israel cannot be solved and is in effect permanent, just like the global jihad is permanent as well.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Reason_For_Life Reason_For_Life

            No argument about the inherent irrationality of Islam and the crazed need to control territory.

            All that I wanted was to determine where justice lay in this conflict and to illustrate that so long as the argument is over what collective group controls the land there can never be a resolution to the problem. Collective identities of any kind are destructive and lead to conflicts based on what amounts to no more than a tribal identity.

            Individuals can settle conflicts between them rationally and peacefully. Tribal conflicts, on the other hand, can only be settled by extermination.

            So long as the people in this area regard themselves as members of a collective there can never be peace.

          • ObamaYoMoma

            There is no justice where Islam is concerned. There can be no compromises or resolutions to the problem. Indeed, the so-called peace plan is taqiyya (a ploy) created to weaken Israel. Just like the settlement issue is taqiyya (a pretext) to justify jihad. Any treaties reached are really truces, i.e., temporary truces (Hudnas), until the Muslims can regain enough strength to resume the jihad.

            According to the Dar al Islam, the kafir infidel Jews must be made to submit to the authority of Islam or otherwise die. Hence, their jihad against Israel, like also their global jihad against the entire non-Islamic world as well, is permanent. It will go on and last as long as the Muslims are too weak to force us to submit or until we become too weak to resist.

            Moreover, small details like any facts on the ground, such as land titles, national sovereignty, international borders, and Geneva Conventions doesn’t matter, as the Muslims only adhere to Sharia law, and per Sharia law all Muslims are obligated to pursue jihad in the cause of Allah until the entire world has been made to submit to the authority of Islam, or, in other words, until the entire world has been subsumed by the Dar al Islam.

            Additionally, in totalitarian societies like Islam there are no property rights. The Islamic state and whatever that is comprised of owns all property. It is only in modern democratic capitalist societies like the USA where individual property rights are recognized and protected.

        • ziontruth

          I see eye to eye with American conservatives on a lot of issues, but this is one where we part ways, and where I sense they share the same delusion as their liberal adversaries: the philosophy of absolute individualism. Being anti-collectivist is fine, but anti-nationalism takes thing too far. Nation and nation-state are the best safeguards against both anarchy and tyranny.

          Individual claims of ownership are of no merit in this conflict, nor in most of the world (and that means Europe too, which is why Americans, including conservatives, have such a hard time grasping Europe's form of the anti-jihad question, often falling into the Charles Johnson cluelessness pit). This here is no conflict between individuals over plots of private land, like an Arizona rancher holding his fort against illegal individuals. I fully understand and support the Arizona rancher, but here is not the same situation. This conflict is between nations, or (since Islam is in the mix) between nations and a supranational force (world-conquering Arab imperialism, which is, after all, what Islam really is). Your effort to push this conflict into the confines of individual claims is commendable, but it won't work, simply because it's out of whack with reality.

          Any proposal that fails to take Arab imperialism (read, again: Islam) into account will fail. Peace comes when each nation has a nation-state within well-defined borders; imperialistic movements like Nazism, Marxism and Islam are in head-on opposition to that.

        • joannarobbins

          The entire Land of Israel was given to the State by the Balfour Declaration and was OWNED by the State of Israel. Much of Israel still belongs to the State. People lease the land, homes, and farms, but the land is Jewish and always will be because of the structure of ownership in Israel. Remember when Ehud Barak ceded Gaza (land for peace) to the Palestinian Authority? He was only able to do that because Israel owns the land. He could force his own citizens to give up their homes. Yes, it is "socialist", "communist", whatever you want to call it, but it is the only way to preserve the land as a homeland for the Jews.

    • Grantman

      Also, much, if not most of the land that was Mandate Palestine was actually *purchased* by Jews from absentee Arab or Turkish landlords. Paid for with inflated prices, too, if I'm not mistaken. So, in addition to 'ObamaYoMama's' reply regarding victorious armies, simple commercial transactions as well form the basis of land ownership.

      There is a book called (if I remember correctly) "From Time Immemorial" that details this history quite extensively.

      Hope this helps.

      • Reason_For_Life

        This is what I was talking about. If the settlement areas were legitimately purchased then the settlements are perfectly moral and no one has the right to oppose them on racial/tribalist grounds.

        Victorious armies have nothing to do with land ownership except in so far as they either respect individual ownership or murder the owners and steal the land.

        The reason that I originally posted here was because in all the news that you hear from this region, you never hear about who actually owns the land upon which the settlements are being built. What we hear is

        "Obama's support for Israel was undercut by the building of settlements in Jerusalem"

        or things of that nature. To me this sounds as crazy as if you heard on this on TV:

        "Obama's support for New Jersey was undercut by Sam and Anita building homes in Newark."

        As I said to ObamaYoMama this is why I hate just about everything about the Middle East.

        • Ron

          How can you say who rules has nothing to do with ownership? It has everything to do with it!

          Ownership of property is a legal concept whose parameters are controlled by whoever controls the nation.. You sound as though you consider "ownership" a pre-government principle?

          Before that you "owned" whatever you claimed, as long as you could defend it that is!

          Also, what you call "tribal" claims are very valid in Jewish and many other cultures. And, Jewish claims to land and other property can be traced back thousands of years by some families because religious Jews keep very accurate geneological records including property rights, at least by tribe, going back to even before the Egyptian Captivity. And, very often at least back to King David.

          Historical records, too, confirm Jewish claims to this land, and even more as what they have now doesn't come close to being all of David's Israel. I'm not talking about just Jewish Historical Records either. I'm talking Egypt, Assyria, Persia (Iran), Roman, Greek, Chaldean, Samaria, Babylon, Ethiopian. All of them confirm the existence of Jewish Israel thousands of years ago.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Reason_For_Life Reason_For_Life

            Tribal claims are by their very nature invalid.

            There are hundreds, if not thousands of people who can trace their ancestry back to the Pilgrims landing at Plymouth Rock. Can they collectively lay claim to the entire state of Massachusetts on this basis?

            Should they demand that people who live there now "return" property to the Pilgrims' descendants when these people never so much as owned an outhouse in Boston?

            Historical records confirming ancient ownership are worse than ridiculous. The Bible itself contains obvious nonsense like Moses referring to places by names they didn't have until hundreds of years after Moses' death.

            If you look at recent historical records made by historians you will discover that Franklin Roosevelt was the greatest American president and that Warren Harding was the second worst. Yet Roosevelt kept the US mired in a depression for ten years and Harding completely avoided a depression.

            Aside from the questionable validity of the records, how does the fact that ancient people mauled each other to seize property a thousand years ago affect present day ownership?

            You have clearly missed the point that I made. I have no interest in the race or religion of people who lived in the Middle East in centuries past. I only care about justice for those living there now and that justice must be determined on an individual basis, not on membership in this or that tribe.

          • To the ignorant

            For one as stupid as you no answer will be sufficient!!!!!!!!!!

            Israel was a state way before Islam or Christianity existed in the land were it is now.

            The jews has not been tribes for three thousand years but then what the hell do you know.

            I guess you will claim that Cleopatras relationship with king Solomon are fairy-tails and all the jewish archeological proves all over Israel are
            just a nonsense including the west wall of the temple which was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

            But America has the right to the land of the native Indians just because they wanted it!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Yosef Bender

    There was a neighborhood in Jerusalem that was all Jewish but during the 1967 war Jordan had pushed out all the Jews from that neighborhood and Arabs were encouraged to be squatters in the formerly owned Jewish homes, this is one of the "controversial" neighborhoods, there was another neighborhood that was all Jewish and the US pressured them to stop construction in, implying that there is no place in Jerusalem that you should be living in.

    even in the old city you can go by many Arab homes and see where the Mezuzah once stood as there is a gash exactly in the spot it should be.

    Jews have been living in Israel throughout there entire history of this land, sometimes in smaller numbers, usually after some massacre of slaughter, by Christian or Muslim war bands,

    the other day I met several large families that was celebrating 250 years of living in the holy land sharing stories about their great great grand parents lifes.

    There were times throughout the long 2000 years of history where Jews were the majority again it has always been , as it is today, persecution and hatred of the Jews that has reduced those numbers.

    Mark Twain visiting the holy land, said that it was a desolate country that could sustain very few people, very few Arabs lived in this desolate place, the few areas that were still fertile Arab migrant farm workers would be there during harvest time.

    it was not until the Jews started to shuffle by shovel beat back the swamps, and cause the desert bloom that Arabs started coming for work opportunities.

    If you would take the time to study the long history of who actually lived in this land you would be aghast at how the world continues to tell the biggest lie, about the so-called "Palestinians" , they themselves have admitted it's a lie but it works to further their cause of the destruction of the Jewish people.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

      "it was not until the Jews started to shuffle by shovel beat back the swamps, and cause the desert bloom that Arabs started coming for work opportunities."

      Typical rationalization of the settler and colonial mentality.An interesting and telling insight of the thinking ,biases and arrogance of the day.

      “I realized how serious the issue of our relations with the Arabs is when I first purchased lands from the Arabs (In the Galilee)…. I realized how close the Bedouin is to his land… During my 25 years of colonial work I have dispossessed many Arabs from their lands, and you understand that this job- of dispossessing people from the land in which they and maybe their father were born- is not at all an easy thing, especially when one looks at these people as human beings… I had to do this, because this is what the Yishuv asked for, but I always tried to do it in the best way possible… I got familiar with the Arabs and the Arab question very early on.”

      What dirty work,reminds me of the Highland clearances.And Jews point to this as justification for their national state.More like a national state of shame. Muchiboy

      Haim Margaliyot Kalvaryski is an alternative voice of a different kind. Born in Poland in 1867, he arrived to Palestine in 1895 as an agronomist and served for many years as the administrator of the agricultural settlements in lower and upper Galilee . One of his major roles was to purchase lands from the Arabs and develop the Jewish settlements in the region. During WWI Kalvaryski managed to use his good connections with the Turkish authorities in Palestine to help the Jewish community in the settlements and ease their difficult situation as much as possible.

      http://www.passia.org/meetings/2004/May-24-Late-O

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

        "Typical rationalization of the settler and colonial mentality.An interesting and telling insight of the thinking ,biases and arrogance of the day."

        It is truly arrogant to ignore the fact that Jewish settlers greatly increased the standard of living attracting Arabs from the surrounding region to settle in the barren area then known as "Palestine."

  • Beverley

    Obama is scared of the Muslims in the Middle East and he knows that Hamas is their attack dog. It is only if he starts to lose power back home that he might take action.

    I wish the Jews who voted him into power would wake up. It is a case of the blind leading the blind.

  • Joseph-Patrick

    Obama says the minimum to calm fears bout our support for Israel. Behind closed doors he hates Israel–as all muslims do. He is soft on Iran and wants to sit, talk, and be friendly with murderous muslim terrorists. He is a muslim. He admits it in his book.

  • AMA

    We (Israel) Passed Par'oh in eygpat, as well as all the Pogroms , as well as the holocaust, We'll pass Obama / Achmadenijad and whomever esle is needed too if needed. I liked you're writings, Though you've got one mistake, of saying Israel is preparing, it should be changed to Israel is well prepared, :)

  • ron

    Israel does not hold it's soldiers to the "highest standard". The standard they are held to is an immoral and sick joke.

    At this point most conservatives would look upon these words with horror, and liberals would look with glee. Don't be so fast boys, I don't agree with either of your groups.

    For the liberals, it is immoral, absolutely immoral to expect a soldier to be impossibly discriminate in who he attacks in a war zone. This doesn't shorten wars, it prolongs them. It fair and sane to expect soldiers not to intentionally target civilians, but to expect them to never hit a civilian under any circumstances is nothing short of disgusting and betrays a hatred for the soldiers in question.

    As for conservatives, shame on you for considering such practices to be a "high standard". In addition to needlessly putting soldiers lives at risk, you also encourage their opponents to hide behind civilians, to provoke attacks and give them hope that they can win in their conflicts which only encourages more warfare leading to more destruction.

    The truth is, those who espouse such views would never ask for such things if their own lives were on the line, or those they actually cared about, or if the war being fought was one in which they truly felt their own interests were on the line.

    I have nothing but contempt for both conservatives and liberals, especially for the conservatives as they were the ones who convinced me they were sincere regarding the Iraq and Afghan war, and now I see it was nothing more than an intellectual exercise on their part.

    • teq

      There is no more effective way to destroy the morale of an army than to tell them to win a war but then warn them they will be prosecuted if they kill civilians. The Hamas soldiers don't wear uniforms (except when on parade) so the Israeli soldier is expected to win a war without firing on anyone who looks like a civilian, which means all of them.
      I'm pleased with the way Bibi has handled this nonsense. He stood his ground against Obummer and Obummer blinked. That's the way to deal with Obummer. Just Say No to his idiotic demands and then stare him down until he blinks.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

      "I have nothing but contempt for both conservatives and liberals.."

      Who's left, anarchists?

      Muchiboy

    • To the ignorant

      You miserable fool, how dare you compare the fight of Israel for survival against murderers to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

      We are not shorts of super ignorantos in here today!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/GOP_Sucks GOP_Sucks

    I'm wasting my time trying to post on a two faced commie Jew site that speaks out of both sides of their mouth. You know what, you gaylords have the gumption to censor me when my neg points build up but whose shutting you down in the U.S or A? yea that's right — you aint one of us. Your free to be a commie in the good ol U.S. of A.

    Grow some balls and take like man MATT!!!

    Take my shit with logic MATT and allow my screen name to exist. If you do, I will promise to fuck your fans nicely.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    "Israel, however, must assume that should the same people who have repeatedly called for their physical annihilation gain the means to accomplish their oft-stated goal, they will not hesitate to destroy the Jewish state."

    Using nuclear weapons? The same arguments used against the N.Koreans attacking it's southern neighbor would seem to apply to Iran vs Israel as well.

    " preventing America from making the strong shows of support for Israeli security"

    Not necessarily a bad thing even for Israeli long term interests.One might say that securing the trust and good will of the Arab and Muslim world is at least as important as securing that of Israel,but I am being uncharacteristically generous here.Hopefully it will pay large and important dividends.

    Muchiboy

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

      Why would Obama or anyone in the US want the trust and good will of the Arab and Muslim world? That trust and good-will is just a "hudna." The Arab states bring nothing but pain, misery and terrorism. They have no strategic or economic importance other than oil. If Obama were smart he would focus on energy independence from the Arabs and drill more oil at home and continue economic ties with Israel that actually pay legitimate economic, technological, medical and military dividends – just read "Start Up Nation."

  • USMCSniper

    Not necessarily a bad thing even for Israeli long term interests.One might say that securing the trust and good will of the Arab and Muslim world??? "Ooohhhh I see the Mr Alligator, please lets be friends and you can eat me last relationship!"

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    "please lets be friends and you can eat me .."

    Many countries have allies today who were once bitter enemies,USMCSniper.When you demonize an entire people or religion you miss an opportunity to see them as possible allies or engage them in a more constructive way.The fact that you defeated the Arabs in previous wars should in no way comfort you as there may be a hundred more future wars to fight.Remember,they just have to win one while you need win the hundred.Muchiboy

  • http://mypage.direct.ca/l/lbouchar/ Lorenzo Bouchard

    ARCH ANGEL MICHAEL’S CLARION CALL!

    WARRIORS OF GOD’S LIGHT, ARISE!

    FOR LIBERTY’S SAKE!

    THE FLAME OF FREEDOM SPEAKS, THE FLAME OF FREEDOM WITHIN EACH HEART.
    THE FLAME OF FREEDOM SAITH UNTO ALL: COME APART NOW AND BE A SEPARATE AND CHOSEN PEOPLE, ELECT UNTO GOD.
    MEN AND WOMEN WHO HAVE CHOSEN THEIR ELECTION WELL, MEN AND WOMEN WHO HAVE DETERMINED TO CAST THEIR LOT IN WITH THE IMMORTALS.
    THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE SET THEIR TEETH WITH DETERMINATION, WHO HAVE SAID, WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP, WE WILL NEVER TURN BACK, WE WILL NEVER SUBMIT.

    IMPEACH PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA, OR ELSE THINK MAO, STALIN, HITLER AND MOHAMMED.

    ALSO CHECK THE “Ban Islam “ petition on Google.

    Sincerely,

    Lorenzo Bouchard
    labouchard@shaw.ca http://mypage.direct.ca/l/lbouchar/ “GUARDIANS OF DEMOCRACY” PH. 250 995-1760

    777

  • USMCSniper

    Obama is clearly an anti semite who barely conceals it and get a pass anyway from the MSM. His mindset is based on that he was born a Muslim and was a Muslim all through his youth in Hawaii and Indonesia, was a Muslim while an undergraduate at Occidental and Columbia, was a Muslim, whose expenses were paid by a very anti semetic Muslim Khalid al-Mansour, at Harvard Law School, and he was a Muslim until well innto his 30's. His conversion to Black Liberation theology under the anti semetic Reverend Jeremiah Wright who is a personal friend of the anti semetic Nation of Islam nutcase Louis Farrakann is a joke. His first contact as President was Abbas of the Palestinians, then his Muslim ass kissing speech in Cairo, and then his almost a cow tow bow to the Saudi Arabian King, his shabby treatment of Israel and the settlements,
    the shabby treatment of Israel's prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu – this guy is an enemy of Israel and they know it but Israel will play the game because they know he is gone in 2012.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/WilliamJWard WilliamJamesWard

    A show of force to North Korea, just what the little nut needs to feed his delusions,
    that part of planet Bizzaro will be well entertained. As far as Obama and Israel
    everyone with any brains already understands his love is with Islam and everyone
    I know believes he is a closet Muslim besides being and American hating fraud.
    The American and Israeli war of survival is on and to say otherwise is to admit
    total personal failure or you are on the other side…………………………….William

  • muchiboy

    "Why would Obama or anyone in the US want the trust and good will of the Arab and Muslim world?"

    percentage of religious groups:

    Judaism- 0.22%
    Muslim – 21%
    http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.h

    "The Arab states bring nothing but pain, misery and terrorism."

    The allies found the Arabs helpful in their war against the Turks in WWI.The Americans would find the Arabs as useful allies against Iran if needed.

    "They have no strategic or economic importance other than oil."

    If it were only oil that would be enough.As to other strategic or economic importance,Arabs are both wealthy and numerous.They can be a formidable enemy as America seen 9/11.The Arab oil boycott in 1967 did untold harm to our economies,and for what,a nasty,human rights abusing Zionist state.

    "Israel that actually pay legitimate economic, technological, medical and military dividends"

    Jews there(Israel) or here(Canada,etc.) will contribute economically,etc.At least here we can keep an eye on them,prevent their crimes against humanity.I once observed that Jews may well be the finest most productive citizens a country could wish for,bar none.But given how they have behaved towards the Palestinians and the Lebanese,the Jewish state has failed the standard of a modern state.I would welcome a million Jews to this country,but not a Jewish state on my or any other border,excepting the border with Germany.Germany owes the European Jews while the Palestinians did not deserve them.Muchiboy

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

      "The allies found the Arabs helpful in their war against the Turks in WWI.The Americans would find the Arabs as useful allies against Iran if needed."

      No, most of the Arabs did not help the Allies against the Turks in World War I. David Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister, noted that "most Arabs fought for their Turkish rulers. Emir Faisal's supporters in Arabia were the exception."

      Additionally, in World War II, only Transjordan supported the British in 1939. Iraq became pro-Nazi (which is where the Baathist party came from) and joined the Axis powers. Most of the Arab states COWARDLY waited to declare war on Germany until 1945 when the German war machine was already doomed.

      "The Arab oil boycott in 1967 did untold harm to our economies,and for what,a nasty,human rights abusing Zionist state."

      Ron you can't even get basic facts straight. The Arab Oil Embargo was in 1973 as a childish response to Israel, yet again, successfully defended itself from a surprise invasion.

      "Jews there(Israel) or here(Canada,etc.) will contribute economically,etc.At least here we can keep an eye on them,prevent their crimes against humanity."

      And you wonder why you get called a vile antisemite?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/WilliamJWard WilliamJamesWard

        MixMChess, it's "vile antisemite lunatic" give him full credit.
        Thank You……………………………………..William

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

        "Ron you can't even get basic facts straight.The Arab Oil Embargo was in 1973 "

        The first Arab Oil Embargo was in 1967 ,precipitated by the Six Day War.This action was believed to have led to the formation of OAPEC.
        The1973 Oil crisis,precipitated by American resupplies to Israel after initial Arab gains against the IDF during the Yom Kippur War was more effective and damaging to the West.Indeed,it was the 1973 boycott that I was referring to.Thank you.Muchiboy

  • badaboo

    People CAN understand , but for insincere motives WON'T .

  • badaboo

    It is disguised as "humanitarianism " , political ideology , patriotism , isolationism ,nationalism , religion ,but in reality , underlying it all …it is hatred of the jews .

  • badaboo

    muchiboy , get your head straightened out , you dont know who your enemies are .

  • badaboo

    What ? Why then didn't you delete MUCHIBOY'S Statement ?????

  • badaboo

    "The Arab oil boycott in 1967 did untold harm to our economies,and for what,a nasty,human rights abusing Zionist state. "
    -muchiboy

    -but this is not worthy of deletion , but my criticism of it IS ????

  • badaboo

    muchiboy's sentiment is yet just another example of how hatred of jews disguises itself as ……"something else " .

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    "To be sure, China and Russia are not the "nicest" or most enlightened countries,"
    so this would be a natural alliance for a Zionist,quasi Apartheid state like Israel.In fact,Apartheid South Africa and Zionist Israel were quite cozy,as were Uganda and Israel.Birds of a feather….Muchiboy

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

      "so this would be a natural alliance for a Zionist,quasi Apartheid state like Israel.In fact,Apartheid South Africa and Zionist Israel were quite cozy,as were Uganda and Israel."

      Israel is the exact opposite of an apartheid state. Still, Israel had military relations with S. Africa, but no more so than other western countries such as France (and other countries such as Romania). Of course, only Israel gets singled out for condmenation.

      As for Uganda, Israel had friendly relations with them for a very short time in the 1960's and early 1970's. However, when the Israel's refused to give military aid to Amin in 1972, Uganda broke all relations with Israel (expelling all Israeli citizens) and established ties with the Arab states (such as Libya). Israel responded by imposing a trade embargo on Uganda.

      If you want to see natural alliances look no further than the Palestinians (and other Arab states) who have friendly relations with Iran, N. Korea, Pakistan, Russia, China, Sudan and other human rights abusing/apartheid countries. Face it, Palestinians are the only natural heirs to the Nazis still left on earth.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

        "Face it, Palestinians are the only natural heirs to the Nazis still left on earth."

        European Jews share more of the genetic heritage of the Nazis (German race) thanks to the Diaspora then do the Palestinians.Muchiboy

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

    muchiboy's sentiment is yet just another example of how hatred of jews disguises itself as ……"something else " .

    "a nasty,human rights abusing Zionist state. "

    You can tell me with a straight face that Israel does not abuse the human rights of the Palestinians? I at least will state categorically that Palestinian terrorists and suicide bombers who kill innocent Israeli Jews abuse the human rights of Jews.
    Also,I think I am a better judge then yourselves of my attitude and biases towards Jews.To accuse all those critical of Israel and Zionism of antisemitism and Jew hatred is anti-intellectualism and has to be exposed as such.It serves to weaken your position and is intellectually dishonest. Muchiboy

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

      "You can tell me with a straight face that Israel does not abuse the human rights of the Palestinians?"

      Yes I can.

      "Also,I think I am a better judge then yourselves of my attitude and biases towards Jews."

      Your constant freudian slips conflating Jews and Israelis reveals your underlying attitudes and biases.

      "To accuse all those critical of Israel and Zionism of antisemitism and Jew hatred is anti-intellectualism and has to be exposed as such."

      Not everyone who is critical of Israel is antisemitic, in fact, the loudest critics of Israel are Israelis themselves, just look at any Israeli newspaper (ex: Haaretz). However, to single out Jewish self-determination for condemnation is itself a form of anti-semitism and racism. Anti-Semites, such as yourself, goal is to delegitimize and destroy Israel. There is nothing Israel can do to satisfy your criticism other than self-annihilation.

      Look no further than the great Martin Luther King: "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

        "There is nothing Israel can do to satisfy your criticism other than self-annihilation."

        Firstly,Jews and/or Zionists must right their many wrongs of the Palestinians.They can do that by recognizing and acknowledging their occupation of Palestine by European Jews and correcting that historical wrong.Either go home to their non-Palestine homelands (refer Helen Thomas) or accept that the status quo in Israel must change dramatically in terms of significant Israeli concessions involving land water and viability.

        "Not everyone who is critical of Israel is antisemitic.." STOP.

        Write that on the blackboard 1000 times,MixMChess.No qualifiers.Simple and maybe unplatable,but accurate.

        "Your constant freudian slips conflating Jews and Israelis.."

        They weren't slips,MixMChess.The problem lies with you.Paranoia,perhaps.But then maybe you have reason.I can't help that.All we can do is try to prevent those inhumanities from happening again to your people and others.Again,for what it's worth,sorry.

        ""When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."

        We are also talking semantics and polemics,MixMChess.Sure,Jew haters may be anti Zionists,but anti-Zionists are not necessarily Jew haters.There are many grounds,moral,political,etc.for criticizing Israel that are independent of and apart from Antisemitism.Your failure to recognize these legitimate arguments is unfortunate and should be explored more fully.

        Muchiboy

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/MixMChess MixMChess

          "Firstly,Jews and/or Zionists must right their many wrongs of the Palestinians.They can do that by recognizing and acknowledging their occupation of Palestine by European Jews and correcting that historical wrong.Either go home to their non-Palestine homelands (refer Helen Thomas) or accept that the status quo in Israel must change dramatically in terms of significant Israeli concessions involving land water and viability."

          Israel has not committed and wrongs that necessitate being righted. As I have proven before, Israel proper is NOT an occupation. Israel has a historical, legal and moral right to exist. Further, whether or not you agree with Israel's occupation of the W. Bank, it is legal under international law. Your problem is that you make broad accusations but you never have any facts to support them.

          "They weren't slips,MixMChess.The problem lies with you.Paranoia,perhaps."

          Hmmm… lets see, you have previous posts about how at least in Canada you can keep an eye on the local "Jews" (as if Jews are somehow predisposed to mischief), you reference materials found on neo-Nazi websites, and you constantly refer to Jews and Israel as one in the same. Its not paranoia when you constantly prove me right.

          "There are many grounds,moral,political,etc.for criticizing Israel that are independent of and apart from Antisemitism."

          Its a very simple question, do you accept Israel's right to exist? How you answer that question reveals where you stand on legitimate criticism vs. outright antisemitism.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/muchiboy muchiboy

            "Its a very simple question, do you accept Israel's right to exist? How you answer that question reveals where you stand on legitimate criticism vs. outright antisemitism."

            No,if it's at the expense of another people i.e.the Palestinians.Re-create Israel on the banks of the Rhine and I'll even live on a Kibbutz for a year helping you build your country.Muchiboy

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Moderate47 Moderate47

    This may be a plan right out of G.W.'s playbook. Maybe North Korea didn't attack the South Korean ship and we are making a false premise to escalate tensions. Bush Sr. or Jr. didn't have the public support to go into Bagdad till 9/11. After 9/11, America gave G.W. an open check book to do whatever he wanted which he did — finish where his Father left off.
    Obama is approaching the Eve of a pivitol election year and he needs to create drama for the much needed hawkish votes. If he can manage to get the North to back down to the U.S.S. Washington, then his critics will have less clout on the idea that he is soft. This is a possible scenerio that should be considered.

  • badaboo

    First off , muchiboy , get your history right , the "oil crisis was in the early 70's. And yes , when animus , and misinformation based in palestinian propaganda is the basis for your criticism , it is in fact anti-semitism . Your case however is all the more obvious , by your own words- "here in canada we can atleast keep an eye on them " ? What's that muchiboy ? The palestinians have a "charter " muchiboy …do you know of it ? Do you think they are "just words " , and as far as human rights violations , the palestinians have far surpassed the Israelis long ago , infact in Gaza , hamas is breaking records on that subject , and against their own .

  • badaboo

    And , no , muchiboy , you are NOT a better judge , you actually believe the propaganda you've been spoon fed , thereby disqualifying yourself from any rarational objective criticism .
    You're simply attempting a charade at intellectualism , to support an irrational view . Your tone , inflectrion and syntax give you away for exactly and precisely what you are ….a jew hater . You can not disguise that with fancy words and psuedo-intellectual euphemisms .
    Nice try pal .But your teeth are showing .

  • badaboo

    Support for the State of Israel by the United States and about 81% of Americans , is based NOT on what ANY Administration or President thinks or feels whether it be Bush , Obama or even Reagan , that support , and the FACT that it will continue , is based sol;ey on the TRUISM ……that it is the RIGHT thing to do . The palesztinians , long ago , lost the argument , and that has been confirmed by five wars , and countless attacks on civilians and innocents , not just in Israel , lebanon and Jordan , but on the world stage .

  • muchiboy

    "The Arab oil boycott in 1967 did untold harm to our economies

    "First off , muchiboy , get your history right , the "oil crisis was in the early 70's."

    Google 1967 Oil Embargo

    So I mixed up the 1967 Six Day War oil embargo with the 1973 Yom Kippur War oil crisis,sue me.

    The 1967 Oil Embargo began on June 6, 1967, one day after the beginning of the Six-Day War, with a joint Arab decision to deter any countries from supporting Israel militarily. Several Middle Eastern countries eventually limited their oil shipments, some embargoing only the United States and the United Kingdom, while others placed a total ban on oil exports. The Oil Embargo did not significantly decrease the amount of oil available in the United States or any affected European countries due mainly to a lack of solidarity and uniformity in embargoing specific countries. The embargo was effectively ended on September 1 with the issuance of the Khartoum Resolution.
    http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/6078414

    "here in canada we can at least keep an eye on them "

    Admittedly I had some reservations about using this line,but I thought it kind of cute and to the point.It was effective.You guys don't hold any punches,either,let me tell you.In an earlier posting,I made reference to Jews being fine citizens,and I meant it.I also made reference to how brutal a state Israel is,and I meant it given how it was re-created at the expense of the Palestinians and still is.When I compare the qualities of the Jewish citizen of a non Jewish state to that of the Jewish state itself (obviously run by Jews) I find the former laudable,the latter despicable.I could have said the same thing about Germans living in America and Nazi Germany.
    Accuse me of being mean spirited,perhaps,but not antisemitic.We're jousting here,chinas,and maybe shouldn't take everything literally.A little dark humor,a little reading between the lines will do us all some good.

    Muchiboy