To Kill an Apostate

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Some Muslim leaders in America deny that there are any threats to the lives and safety of Muslims who decide to leave Islam. It is as though they have no role to play in changing the status quo of the tyranny of Islam. Muslim groups who call themselves “moderate” are strangely silent about the persecution, torture, killing, and imprisonment of apostates, women, and non-Muslims all over the Muslim world. All they seem to care about is pacifying the American public and convincing them that Islam is a “religion of peace,” while hiding from view the fact that 1.2 billion Muslims are living under the tyranny of Sharia Islamic law, and how that tyranny is creeping into the West.

Whenever asked about what is happening in the Muslim world and its tragic impact on the West, critics are accused of being “Islamophobes” who need sensitivity training. What defenders of Islam say is: “We believe that Islam is a religion of peace and thus you too must believe the same, and never mind what your gut tells you or what is actually happening to your country from the Islamic invasion.” They want us to disregard those who issue fatwas of death against Western politicians such as Geert Wilders, cartoonists, film makers, apostates, and practically any one who dares ask the difficult questions Islam has refused to answer since its inception.

On Nov. 19, 2009, Sheila Musaji, editor of the American Muslim, wrote an article attacking Former Muslims United (FMU). Ms. Musaji state:

This FMU pledge is simply another attempt to create propaganda (planting the idea that American Muslims have not taken a position against punishments for apostasy) and to attempt to make it seem as if only former Muslims can stand for what is right, and frankly to attempt to increase the visibility of the FMU at the expense of the Muslim community.  This is shameful behavior (although typical of members of this group who go beyond denouncing Islamic radicalism to denouncing all of Islam) and is simply another example of attempting to marginalize the Muslim community and bolster the false claim that Muslims don’t speak up against injustices, extremism, etc.

FMU sent over 165 letters (Muslim Pledge for Religious Freedom and Safety from Harm for Former Muslims) to various Muslim leaders in America. We needed their support and for them to prove how dedicated they are in reforming the radicals whom they believe are not true Muslims. The pledge states that they repudiate the laws and commandments that condemn apostates to death or discrimination under Islam.

But unfortunately, Muslim groups operating in America have not signed our plea letter or even responded. Only two Muslim reformists signed the pledge, Dr. Zuhdi Jasser and Mr. Ali Alyami.

On September 24, 2009 however, two days after we mailed our pledges, Musaji wrote an article stating: “We live in a country where such freedom [of religion] is a foundational principle and must be defended. We must continue to insist on the Islamic principle that there is ‘no compulsion in religion.’”

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  • kwg1

    Even though the outcome will likely be the same, more letters like the one sent to Musaji's group should be sent out on a regular basis to every listed Mosque in the USA. We can thus begin a marketing campaign to chronical the truth about "Moderate" Islam in the USA on a variety of issues they have thus far been able to "shuck and jive" on!

    Who is able to take up the baton? David?

  • arun

    Intolerance is built into the Quran and hence Islam cant be reformed as Muslims believe it is all the words of Allah including the bit about the sun setting in a muddy pool in the west at night.

    8.39 wage war till Islam is the only religion left on the planet
    5.52 Jews and Xtians are unbelievers
    9.5 kill the unbelievers
    4.34 women are inferior , whip them if they speak up
    etc.
    Just google 'Quran 4.34' etc to verify for yourself

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/imran2 Stat Quo

    In the Hadith the death penalty is mentioned in several passages. For example: Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." – Bukhari, Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17.

  • Steve

    Just wondering: Has the Freedom Pledge letter been sent out to some prominent Canadian Muslim leaders like Tarek Fatah, Irshad Manji, Shahina Siddiqui, etc.? Would be interesting to see how they respond. Like the old saying goes, you shall know a tree by its fruits. Furthermore, to use another analogy, not only does the bath water need to be throw out but also the baby, because it is the "baby" that is messing up all the water. The "baby" is a dead corpse; it will never grow up to cleanse itself.

    • Stephen D.

      Take it a step further. Can we get this letter to ALL Muslim Officials of the US Government? It would be interesting to see how they answer. I'd love to put them on the public spot. There are many now on our payroll. Also, This letter should be the basis for anyone wanting to suggest they are for peace. My first thought would be, OK, you want peace. Sign this. If not, there is no sense in speaking further. Similar to what David Horowitz did with that student cocnerning Hamas and Hezbullah.

  • jacob

    To all this story about "moderate" Islam, I stick to what YOSHIRO SAGAMORI once wrote in the Jerusalem Post :

    " EVERY PRACTICING MUSLIM IS A TERRORIST.
    IT IS WHAT HAS BEEN HAMMERED INTO HIS HEAD FROM CRADDLE TO GRAVE AND IT IS WHAT HIS RELIGION EXPECTS FROM HIM"

    And I dare anybody to prove this statement wrong…

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/jbtrevor jbtrevor

    Jihad Watch posted a video of a Catholic Church council meeting (on Staten Island I think). The discussion was whether or not to sell a vacant Catholic church to the Muslims for a Mosque. The Muslim representative was asked direct questions about support for terrorism, Islamist dogma, etc and stonewalled every answer with long drawn out flip/flops similar to what Ms. Darwish describes above. Fortunately the people voted NO in selling the Church to them and fortunately Americans are beginning to wake up to the Islamic threat creeping in…

  • http://www.crusaderknight.blogspot.com James Pawlak

    MODEL LETTER

    Dear Abdul & Fatima:

    This note, with the definition below, is being sent to you in response to your presumed claim to be a “Moderate Muslim” as per your ________ of ______.. If you are indeed such a person, then you will have no problems falling within the definition of “Moderate Muslim” given below.

    “MODERATE MUSLIM” DEFINED

    1.A person who makes a very public proclamation that s/he is a Muslim along with giving out his/her name, address, occupation and place of employment.
    2.A a person who then makes a very public rejection and condemnation of all of the teachings within the Koran, Hadith, Sharia and other Islamic teachings which allow or encourage, and sometimes command, the use of murder (eg Killing anyone who “insults” Mohammed or the Koran), rape and enslavement, genocide (eg Killing all Jews), perpetual war with “unbelievers” until they submit to Islam, lying to and stealing from such “unbelievers” and the very inferior legal and social status given by Islam to all “unbelievers” and all women.
    3.A person who then demands that all such teachings be stricken and removed from the Islamic texts noted above.
    4.A person who then very publicly inks-out of a copy of the Koran all those verses which support the above noted, inhumane and anti-civilization acts.

    Of course, you would be much more believable, as to your claim of being a “Moderate Muslim” if you would very publicly state the historical truths that Mohammed of Mecca and Medina was a murderer, bandit, liar and treaty-breaker and the sexual abuser of a nine-year-young girl-child.

    Now, are you a “Moderate Muslim” or a standard-and-dangerous follower of the ideology called Islam with all of its differences in teachings from the Faiths of the Jews, Christians, Baha'i and Sikhs?

    Curiously yours,
    Diego Matemo

    • Mary K.

      …and I'll bet you'd get a lot of takers on that one!

  • jgreene

    They are liars. American Muslim Leader use taquiyya (deception/lies) to ignorant Americans who are too lazy to pick up a Koran and read it and/or study the Koran, Hadith and Sira which are very explicit in Allah's and Mohammed's hatred for kafirs.

    However, I believe more Americans every day are becoming aware of the treachery and lying (which is allowed when speaking to kafirs to protect Islam) endemic to Muslims telling kafirs that Islam means peace. My personal response: "BULL$$IT!!!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/michiganruth michiganruth

      taqqiya is exactly right.

      the liberals foolishly trust everything Islamic leaders tell us, but are absolutely certain that Fox is lying to us. when will this idiocy end? WAKE UP AMERICA!

      • trickyblain

        Can't they both be lying to us?

  • USMCSniper

    David Kupelian says:
    Do we dare admit what is really at play here? The truth is actually very simple. We are afraid of Islam. We are intimidated by Islam. And because we are afraid of and intimidated by Islam, Islam is changing us – in two distinct and profound ways. First, as is appallingly obvious, we're afraid to criticize Islam openly, or we're afraid of being called a racist, extremist, hater or "Islamophobe" thanks to the tyranny of political correctness, or we're afraid of offending those in power and thereby risking our position, stature or other advantage. This reaction, while perhaps selfish and cowardly, is more-or-less conscious and strategic. However, for some it goes much deeper: Being intimidated by Islam (or by anything, for that matter) actually causes some of us to mysteriously grow sympathetic toward it, to defend it, to side with it, even to convert to it. This unconscious shift in attitude, in response to fear of being hurt, is called the Stockholm syndrome, named after the 1973 Swedish bank robbery during which the four terrorized hostages sided with their criminal captors while disparaging the police risking their lives trying to save them.

    • Mike Giles

      Uh, no. not the majority of the American people.
      Too many of our public personalities and "leaders" are afraid of and intimidated by Islam. Because they are in the public eye, they see themselves – rightly – as likely targets. Thus on every occasion they kowtow to the IslamoFascists.

  • JK21

    It does not take a book, or Koran, to promote violence. The Arabs did not need a Koran to completely destroy the world's largest library at Alexandria, 400 years before Mohammed was born (but the proof is still debated.) The printing press (freedom of press) was kept out of Arab countries for 400 years after it was invented.

    Freedom of religion, press, speech, or anything has never been valued in Arab lands, with one exception: Israel. The Koran merely legitimized the culture's fear of "freedom." It became a convenient external justification; just hold up your book and wave it, to justify an emotional precondition. And the reverse is also true: throwing away the book and disavowing its words, will not turn anyone into a free thinker. Any more than Arabs living in Israel value democracy more than Hamas.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Chezwick_Mac Chezwick_Mac

      Actually, no "Arabs" destroyed the library in Alexandria "400 years before Muhammad"…particularly if one comprehends that the principle identifying marker of "Arab" is language. Until on or about 632, Arabs were largely confined the Arabian peninsula. The inhabitants of Egypt before then belonged to the Greek-speaking Ptolemaic Kingdom.

      However, the library at Alexandria was indeed burned by Arabs after the Islamic conquests…I believe under the Caliph Umar. His rational was that "[if these books contradict the Quran, they are seditious, if not, they are redundant]".

    • Brenda

      The Alexandria library was destroyed by Arabs in the year 641 about 10 years after Mohammed died.

  • Chezwick_Mac

    The fact that apostasy is a capital crime in Islam is the glue that holds the ummah together. Without it, Muslims would be defecting en mass.

    In a sane world, our government and our educational institutions would be doing everything in their power to shine the light of day on the totalitarian essence of Islam, encouraging Muslims to leave the faith behind and join the fold of creative humankind.

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/zsqpwxxeh zsqpwxxeh

    Again I see blanket condemnations of Islam as evil. I am a Christian who rejects Islam but I also know many Muslims and have lived in European countries with large Muslim populations. The Muslims I have known are "moderate." They are "moderate" in that they do not endorse or participate in the jihad against the West. They don't circumcise their daughters, vilify Jews, stone adulterers, blow up buses and airplanes, and execute apostates, nor do they support those who do. It is evidently possible to hold these views and still practice Islam, especially in the West.

    There are well over 1 billion Muslims. There must be tens of millions of apostates in Muslim countries. Are they all awaiting execution? Are they routinely prosecuted and put to death for violating Sharia? What are the figures on this? Perhaps Nonie has verifiable statistics.

    • Chezwick_Mac

      1) The fact that there are moderate Muslims doesn't mean there is a moderate Islam. An appropriate analogy would be Germany under the Nazis or Russia under the Bolsheviks. Millions of Germans and Russians were good decent people, but this in no way validated Nazism or Communism as belief-systems.

      2) There may be tens of millions of Muslims world-wide who do not practice their religion, but there are NOT tens of millions of Muslim apostates. There are in fact only a couple of dozen around the world who have openly repudiated of their faith. Most Muslims who reject their faith are compelled to keep quiet about it, lest their fellow Muslims – often family members – follow the commandment of their prophet Muhammad that "he who discards his Islamic religion, kill him".

      • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/zsqpwxxeh zsqpwxxeh

        What if the overwhelming majority of Muslims were moderate (i.e., not radical)? Then there would be a "moderate" Islam: the Islam practiced by the moderates.

        Some percentage of people in any religion abandon it, convert, or cease to believe. It stands to reason that this would result in many millions of Muslim apostates. Their silence in Muslim countries is due to fear, true enough: but fear of whom? The radical militants or the state? You are saying that the Reign of Terror comes from Islam itself, so there should be some solid statistics on public executions for apostasy.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Chezwick_Mac Chezwick_Mac

          My God man. Just go to Wikipedia and read about the killing of apostates in Iran. It's an on-going phenomenon. It's also the law in Saudi Arabia. You're in denial, friend.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/zsqpwxxeh zsqpwxxeh

            "Just go to Wikipedia," huh? If your comments are intended to help others understand, you are not going to achieve much with that approach. "Denial"? Please. I'm challenging your basic assumption that Islam is a malevolent ideology by showing that the death penalty for apostasy is rarely applied, even by the radical regimes. If no one apostatizes out of fear in those countries (a fair assumption), then the refugees would be shedding their faith as soon as they get out. This is common sense. There should be millions of Apostasy Murders all over Europe and the U.S., and there aren't.

            This indicates that the evil involved is limited in scope, that "Islam" does not prosecute apostates and kill them but that radicals do. And unfortunately that refutes your proposition that radical Islam and Islam are one and the same.

          • Chezwick_Mac

            My friend, the Iranian government created death squads to hunt down and kill apostates. This is public record. If you want to remain in willful denial, that's your business.

            The penalty of death for apostasy is ESTABLISHED JURISPRUDENCE in all four schools of Sunni Islam and among the Shia. It is ISLAMIC LAW. This is undeniable. Millions of Muslims worldwide aspire to live under Sharia. Pluralities of Muslims in ENGLAND have been polled favoring Sharia to govern their lives.

            If you don't perceive this state of affairs as problematic, then you're living in a nether-nether world.

            Finally, you make the mistake of drawing an artificial distinction between "radical Islam" and "Islam". Both Jihad and the hudud punishments of stoning and killing apostates are part of the Islamic tradition. Now, there are many aspects of Islam that involve peaceful endeavors, but they exist side by side with the hudud punishments, not outside them.

            This discourse has evidenced that you know actually very little about Islam. My hope is that as you educate yourself over time, your views will mature.

    • Branda Lee

      The problem with Islam is not necessarily Muslim people, since people are people and not even the most evil ideology in the world (which believe Islam is) can make its followers by force evil. Most Muslims were born in the religion and were never allowed to ask questions and are told if they leave their religion they will be killed. Islam is evil, but your Muslims friends could be nice people. That is not the point zsqpwxxeh
      The problem is Islam

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/zsqpwxxeh zsqpwxxeh

    I get the impression that Muslim apologists are uneasy and embarrassed that Death for Apostates is still on the books, along with a lot of other stuff that probably was more than appropriate for 7th century Arabia but kinda sticks in our craw today. The Torah mandates death for cursing one's parents, a commandment violated by approximately one million Jewish American Princesses every day. Can we get real here?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Chezwick_Mac Chezwick_Mac

      You are applying moral equivalence to two very different doctrines with two very different histories. Talmudic Law has evolved over the centuries…and Jews have long ago discarded such barbarities. Conversely, Islam is a fixed belief system that has not evolved one iota since the Mutazilite heresy in the 8th century. This is why adulteresses are stoned in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and elsewhere in the Muslim world, but not in Israel.

      We couldn't be more real here!

      • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/zsqpwxxeh zsqpwxxeh

        No, sorry Chezwick, you're not being real. You're just making assertions that are not (yet) backed up by evidence. Give me the numbers. How many executed for apostasy in Pakistan, Saudi, Iran? Even in the most totalitarian society, there are figures or at least estimates for the numbers of people in camps/prisons/killing fields.

        All I've read indicates that application of the death penalty for apostasy is limited to the jihadists. You are saying that this law is enforced universally in Islam; I am asking you to prove it. Capital punishment under sharia should be handed out like parking tickets, as adultery and blasphemy, etc. occur all the time everywhere. That it's done at all is bad enough, but to posit a new Reign of Terror you need a body count.

        • Chezwick_Mac

          I never said it's enforced universally, but there are numerous examples, even in so-called moderate countries. An Afghan was threatened by the Karzai government with execution for leaving Islam…under American pressure, he was flown to exile in Italy (google the story). There was the Kuwaiti man who publicly apostated, was threatened with execution, and recanted (google). There was the Egyptian writer, Fara Foda (I believe was his name), who was deemed an apostate for his writings and murdered by a pious Muslim in the early 90s (google it). There is the case of an American Muslim murdered in Arizona in 1990 for having the audacity of proclaiming himself a prophet…which is a form of apostasy (google).

          There are numerous other examples. Often it is women who apostate and are murdered by family members. The media then portrays it as an "honor killing" (which in essence, it is), but the apostasy angle is overlooked.

          So, if your argument is that the execution of apostates by a given Muslim state is rare, indeed it is. But this is because 1) the family often kills the "guilty" party and 2) the ever-present threat of execution makes open declarations of apostasy exceedingly rare.

          Now, why don't you prove your earlier assertion that there are "tens of millions" of Muslim apostates? You couldn't in a million years, simply because actual public declarations of apostasy are indeed exceedingly rare….and this is because the penalty is death. The "reign of terror" has been on-going for 1400 years.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Chezwick_Mac Chezwick_Mac

            You assert: "Capital punishment under sharia should be handed out like parking tickets, as adultery and blasphemy, etc. occur all the time everywhere."

            You apparently know very little about the Islamic realm. In point of fact, adultery and blasphemy are actually quite rare over there. But it's no surprise that a practitioner of moral equivalence would assume there is little difference in the moral codes between the Muslim and non-Muslim worlds.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/zsqpwxxeh zsqpwxxeh

            Then when they emigrate to non-Sharia countries they can apostatize, right? They are no longer subject to Islamic law if they leave the mosque. There should be droves of ex-Muslims in America. But wait a minute, there aren't that many. Most stick with their religion even when it can be safely dumped. How can that be? Oh, but then their families will kill them, and if that doesn't happen they have a fatwa on their head forever…because Islam is an evil self-policing totalitarian ideology wherever it goes.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/zsqpwxxeh zsqpwxxeh

            Chezwick, I've participated in many debates on the topic of Islam and the Jihad, and noted that the same fundamental error is made by intelligent people who have a hatred for Islam (and often religion in general): they confuse the radicals and the religion. Religions all tend to moderate over time; Islam is no exception. Fundamentalists and radicals are always offering a return to a pure and original holiness, and are willing to kill to bring it about. Nothing stays exactly the same, ever. If you say these two tendencies are one and the same you are making a fundamental error of your own.

          • Chezwick_Mac

            Insisting that all religions and cultures are the same is as absurd as saying all ideas are equally valid. As you well know, some ideas are cogent and rational, others less so. Still others are based entirely upon false premises or outright delusions.

            Why shouldn't it be any different with belief systems (which is really all a religion is)? Are you actually suggesting that the ethics of Muhammad, as documented in the Ahadith, are similar to the ethics of Jesus, as documented in the Gospel?

            I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, or just about any other religion. Islam is unique in its totalitarian message and in the brutality of its founder.

            Another question: Why has Islam never had a Reformation? Why has their been no Islamic renaissance? In point of fact, the apex of religious freedom in the Islamic world was during the "bad old days" of colonialism, when those Christians and Jews who were indigenous to the Muslim world and who had endured centuries of oppression as second class citizens – were suddenly endowed with equal rights. But that reality ended when independence came in the 20th century and they were forced to resume their status as dhimmis.

            Muslims may be moderate or radical, depending on circumstance and proclivity, but Islam, as codified in the Sunnah, based on the Quran and the Hadith, is a fixed belief system with immutable laws, and these laws include stoning women for adultery, executing apostates, and waging war on unbelievers (unless they are subdued and pay the Jizyah). It is supremacist to its core.

            You might want to ask yourself why you are defending such a value system?

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/zsqpwxxeh zsqpwxxeh

            I'm not defending Islam. I'm defending truth and objecting to the argument, pervasive on these conservative sites, that Islam per se and not militant radical Islam (jihadists) is the enemy. Your various provocative questions are irrelevant to the main point.

            The bitter irony is that you are 100% behind one of the main jihadi points: that they and they alone represent true Islam. Agreeing with this, in addition to being incorrect, has got to be the most gratuitous strategic error in modern history. You have just declared war on 20% of the human race!

          • Chezwick_Mac

            My "various provocative questions are irrelevant to the main point" simply because you can't refute them. You earlier postulated that Islam was no different than Christianity, I gave just a couple of examples of how their histories and theologies are not only different, but in many respects diametrically opposed.

            The most salient difference is that Christianity has a secular essence "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's", while no such tradition exists in Islam. In fact, so non-existent is the line between church and state in the Islamic tradition that there is no Arabic word for "ecclesiastical".

            As for the "strategic error" you rail about, Islam has been at war with the non-Muslim world for 1400 years. All your wishful thinking is not going to change that. Your solution appears to be to repeat by rote that "Islam is peace", turn a blind eye to all evidence to the contrary, and hope that it'll all work out. My solution is an honest exposition of the intolerance and violence promulgated in the Quran…and of the profound moral failings of the Prophet Muhammad (as documented in the Hadith and Sirat Rasul)…in order to first and foremost alert non-Muslims to the dangers of the faith…and then at least TRY to compel Muslims to first acknowledge and then repudiate the supremacist and intolerant traditions in their scripture. If they are unwilling to do so, at least we know where they stand.

            You don't seem to have a clue, but by our obsequious validation of Islam, we are actually cutting the ground out from under Muslim reformers and constricting their operating space. There will be little or no impetus to reform Islam for as long as we keep insisting it doesn't need reforming.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Chezwick_Mac Chezwick_Mac

            Very astute…your sarcasm betrays a sub-conscious understanding of the issue..

            I've read accounts of British Muslims who have apostated and then have endured death threats, assaults, vandalism…often, they have to move to another neighborhood or even a another city in search of safety. And this day and age, with the internet, one can essentially be tracked anywhere.

            Meanwhile, examine the incongruity of your premises…on the one hand, you insist there must be millions of Muslim apostates, human nature being what it is…on the other, you concede there are indeed very few public cases of apostasy, even in the West. How do you account for that? Might Muslims be different than non-Muslims in their outlook and their ethics? Might they have a greater fidelity to their faith? Might that fidelity be based on a thorough inculcation throughout life….including the ever-present fear of repercussion should they commit "rida" (treason) by apostating?

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/zsqpwxxeh zsqpwxxeh

            Again: Who, repeat who, is doing the persecuting? Who is doing the honor killing? Who has declared war on us? Morocco, Al-Azhar, Indonesia, the mosque round the corner, Tariq Ramadan?

            If you have any rational integrity left, you must answer: Radical Islamists, and the regimes that support them. Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Iran…the list goes on. It is not synonymous with Islam overall.

          • Chezwick_Mac

            Integrity, eh?

            1) "Moderate" Indonesia is a country with millions of Muslims who have joined extremist groups, where over 5000 Christians have been slaughtered in the last decade, where scores of churches have been burned. And in your twisted universe, because the government there is not responsible for the carnage, it has no relevance to Islamic theology or tradition.

            Where are the demonstrations by the millions of so-called moderate Indonesian Muslims protesting the violence and intolerance? Why the silence, if they are the true representatives of Islam?

            2) "Moderate" Morocco has just expelled dozens of Christian missionaries for the crime of witnessing their faith. This IS a government action and is entirely uncontroversial for the Moroccan public. What a testimonial to the "tolerance" of Islam.

            Muslim "dawa" is pervasive all over the West, and thousands of Americans and Europeans convert to Islam every year. Where is the reciprocity? There is none. Even so-called moderate Muslim countries forbid proselytizing of any faith except Islam. How does this square with your insistence that Islam is tolerant, no different than any faith?

            3) Copts are mercilessly persecuted by the Muslim "street" in "moderate" Egypt while the security forces look the other way. This behavior is reflective of both the state and the people. There are no real efforts in Egypt to protest this state of affairs. Why is that, defender of Islam?

    • Brenda Lee

      What kind of Christian are you? you are equating 7th century Islam with the Bible. God is not Allah. You think that apostasy laws are just on the books!! why don't you go to formermuslimsunited.org and check the video on what is happening to apostates in Egypt.

      • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/zsqpwxxeh zsqpwxxeh

        The Torah contains many commandments requiring the death penalty. They are not enforced in Judaism and Christianity. I would submit that, fourteen centuries after Christ's death, apostate Christians were being executed at a much greater rate than apostate Muslims are being killed fourteen centuries after Muhammad.
        (Not that it was justified either then or now.)

        What kind of Christian am I? Come on, let's keep my sainthood out of this.

  • daniel

    My friends, here is a list of arguments which YOU can (and should! :)) use in a dialog with muslims about Islam. Don't give up!

    Under this list you can find it a second time, but in German (unter dieser Liste finden Sie sie nochmal auf Deutsch)

    1. Muslims CANNOT doubt the Koran (2:1)
    2. Non-Muslim sex slaves are OK (Koran 4:23-24)
    3. Non-Muslims are sworn enemies of Muslims and Islam (Koran 4:101)
    4. Muslims are forbidden from having non-Muslims as friends (Koran 5:51)
    5. Muslims have the holy duty to kill non-Muslims (Koran 9:5)

    6. Only GUARANTEED way to enter “heaven” is to kill non-Muslims (Koran 9:111)
    7. Muslims MUST terrorize non-Muslims (Koran 8:12)
    8. Muslims can lie to non-Muslims to help Islam (Koran 3:28, 16:106)
    9. Non-Muslims pick one: 1. Die, 2. Convert, 3. Pay Extortion Money to Live (Koran 9:29).
    10. Non-Muslims are vile creatures deserving no mercy (Koran 98:6)

  • daniel

    11. Wife beating is OK (Koran 4:34)
    12. Marriage and divorce of children is OK (Koran 65:4)
    13. Rape is OK, need 4 male Muslim witnesses for proof (Koran 24:13)
    14. Robbery and theft of non-Muslims (Koran: Entire Chapter 8 called Booty)
    15. When Koran conflicts, later verses cancel out earlier verses (Koran 2:106)

    16. Mohammed at 51-years old married his child bride Aisha (6-years old).
    17. Mohammed didn’t deflower her until he was 54 and she was 9.
    18. In one day, Mohammed help behead (Koran 47:4, 8:12) between 600-900 Qurayza Jews in Medina in 627 A.D.
    19. Only Mohammed had permission from Allah to marry as many wives as he wanted to (Koran 33:50).
    20. To prove rape in Islamic law or Sharia law, Muslim females need four male Muslim
    witnesses in good standing (Koran 24:13).

  • daniel

    21. The Koran has 114 Chapters called Surahs and is not presented in chronological order,
    but chapter length order, from longest (Chapter 1) to shortest (Chapter 114).
    22. Many verses in the Koran conflict, so the concept of abrogation (Koran 2:106) applies. This means, later occurring verses make cancel out the earlier verses.
    23. The last chapter written in the Koran, Chapter 9, is extremely violent., nullifying ALL earlier peaceful passages.
    24. Robbery and Theft of non-Muslim property is OK (The entire Chapter 8 of the Koran
    is known as Booty or Spoils).
    25. Muslims that leave Islam (apostasy) MUST be killed. (Bukhari 4:52:260) Quoting
    Mohammed: “…if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.”
    No mosque should be built in Denmark and Muslim immigration must be STOP in all countries or else within 20 years we will lose our democracies, liberties,and way of life to SHARIA Muslim law!
    Join IFA International Freedom Alliance

  • Chezwick_Mac

    Just because Islam qualifies as a religion does not mean it isn't also a military, political and social doctrine. Just because it has a religious dimension shouldn't mean that it therefore necessitates respect and social space in ways that other totalitarian movements don't.

    Now, I DON'T believe that all Muslims are "goats", I've never said anything remotely like that. I DO maintain that the majority of Muslims are either supportive or silent about the supremacist and intolerant facets of their creed. Nothing you have written has refuted that.

    Furthermore, Islam HAS been at war for 1400 years against the non-Muslim world. The only respite was the colonial period, when we eclipsed them entirely and they were forced into a temporarily subordinate position. Again, this is irrefutable historical reality.

    For as long as Muslims desire and advocate for Sharia to govern their lives (and this includes literally hundreds of millions who are otherwise peaceful), their values are antithetical to our own. This is why they issued their own 'Islamic Human Rights Declaration', because the standard UNHRD was in conflict with their values. But you can't face that uncomfortable reality.

    Nobody wants an apocalyptic war! I certainly don't. But your vision is limited to a zero-sum game. To you, we either validate Islam as a belief system, or it's WW3. Believe it or not, there ARE other options, like a robust ideological and intellectual competition between our respective systems. THEY are engaged in it on a daily basis, indoctrinating their people with the fiction that Western freedom is nothing but sexual licentiousness and corruption. Why SHOULDN'T we be engaged in a defense of our civilizational values? And why shouldn't part of that defense be highlighting the profound difference in ethics and values of the two systems?

    Your fears of the apocalypse have driven you to embrace the liberal narrative (adopted by some conservatives, including Bush) that "Islam is peace". In essence, you'd rather believe a lie than to face a daunting problem.

  • Chezwick_Mac

    YOU WRITE: "Of course, Islamic countries are not free and tolerant. We know that already."

    Aren't you curious why this is so? Isn't it possible that there is something inherent in Islam that precludes human freedom? Isn't it true that the in the entirety of Islamic history, there is NO tradition whatsoever of individual freedom?

    There is nothing irrational about the anti-Jihad. We are the only ones calling a spade a spade. We feel that Muslim societies can progress and advance ONLY if they seek solutions to their problems that are OUTSIDE of Islam. While we can't force them to do so, we CAN defend and promulgate our values of tolerance and individual liberty.

    You feel – against all historical and theological evidence – that Islam is perfectly compatible with our values and that once we get rid of those pesky extremists, everyone will live happily ever after. We are much more realistic. We believe this is a civilizational schism that will go on for some time. We also believe it can be won peacefully, through the competition of ideas…but only if we are willing to engage in the intellectual and ideological efforts necessary.

    You ARE right about one thing, that our policymakers are uninterested in the arguments of the anti-Jihad. But just because a tragic mistake is being made doesn't mean that it should be validated.

  • Chezwick_Mac

    Well, many Muslim countries don't practice Sharia in criminal law (a legacy of the "evil" of colonialism), but do so with "family law", which IS universal and codifies polygamy, wife-beating – Quran 4.34, instant divorce, diminished worth of testimony and inheritance and other liabilities against women (how do you feel about such gender discrimination? Is it only the purview of radicals even though it is applied UNIVERSALLY?).

    In those countries, apostates are normally killed by the families. According to your logic, we should all rest easier.

  • freeapostate

    The UN Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18, makes freedom of belief a formal human right. Freedomofapostasy.org has been organized to affect UN resolution to investigate countries who commit crimes against humanity for those accused of apostasy. To learn more, please visit: http://freedomofapostasy.wordpress.com/