Obama’s Lockerbie Problem

Robert Spencer is the director of Jihad Watch and author of the New York Times bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Arab Winter Comes to America: The Truth About the War We're In, is now available.


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Last week, Barack Obama said that his administration had been “surprised, disappointed and angry” in August 2009 when the British government freed the Islamic jihadist Abdelbeset Ali Mohamed al-Megrahi, who murdered 270 people by bombing Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland on December 21, 1988. But Scotland’s First Minister Alex Salmond said Sunday that while Obama’s expression of surprise, disappointment and anger was “a fair description of the American Government’s position,” as “they didn’t want al-Megrahi to be released,” nevertheless, “if he was to be released, they thought it was far preferable for compassionate release as opposed to the prisoner transfer agreement.”

In other words, the Obama administration, while ostensibly opposing any arrangement for al-Megrahi’s release, nonetheless favored releasing him over transferring him from a Scottish prison to a Libyan one. In a letter to Salmond written a week before al-Megrahi was released, Richard LeBaron, deputy head of the US embassy in London, wrote that “if Scottish authorities come to the conclusion that Megrahi must be released from Scottish custody, the US position is that conditional release on compassionate grounds would be a far preferable alternative to prisoner transfer, which we strongly oppose.” U.S. officials tried, but failed to keep LeBaron’s letter secret.

Why they opposed further prison time for al-Megrahi remains unexplained. At the time of his release, al-Megrahi, 58, had only served eight years for 270 counts of murder, but he was reported to be terminally ill with prostate cancer. Professor Karol Sikora, dean of medicine at Buckingham University and medical director of CancerPartnersUK, examined him and gave him three months to live. Al-Megrahi returned to his native Libya, where he was given a hero’s welcome, and has been in excellent health ever since.

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/AlaskanInfidel AlaskanInfidel

    I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.
    Barack Hussein Obama

    • trickyblain

      You shouldn't rely on mass emails as sources for quotes — Obama never said that.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

        Oh you're absolutely right. What he really said was that Arab and Pakistani "immigrant" populations are harrassed and oppressed by the feds unnecessarily, and that it's similar to the behavior of Japanese-American internments. And that he will stand with those poor, persecuted, "immigrant" populations if the political winds shift in an ugly (to them) direction.

        Obama: "Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

        Oh, no. Not hard stares from neighbors.

        • trickyblain

          Oh no. Not being shipped away in the dark of night to some third world prison. Oh no. Not having all of your property confiscated and being sent to live in an internment camp.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Oh no, logical fallacy based on straw men that don't exist.

            Oh no. Since those things don't happen to immigrants to the United States without due cause (criminal charges) then I think we can skip fanning the flames of the usual Muslim persecution complex.

          • trickyblain

            Internment of Japanese citizens didn't happen?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Ridiculous.

            Obama is the one making the straw man argument that because bad things happened to another immigrant group, that any attention by the authorities or "hard stares" must be equally unjustifiable, and as a result of that bit of logic, he will stand with the Arab and Pakistani immigrant communities against any attempts at scrutiny.

            Discern much?

          • trickyblain

            He's not equating the internment and "hard stares." He repeated the worries of the immigrant citizens, and he told them that he would stand with them — stand by their rights as US citizens — should the historical mistakes of the past (i.e., internment) begin to re-emerge. Nothing he says conveys that they are free from any scrutiny. Was it totally crazy for citizens of Islamic descent to fear real percecution after 9/11? I don't think so. I read this Website and its forums.

            Nothing ridiculous about it. No strawmen. It's actually very simple and completely understandable.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            key phrase "should the historical mistakes of the past emerge".

            Since not one single instance of these types of mistakes has happened, and all that has happened are Muslims being professional victims and making things up to point at, then Obama is engaging in a straw man argument.

            He is using an odious event that hasn't happened to that population to create fear about what could happen, and then saying, if it did in fact happen just that way, he would stand with the immigrants.

            What a useless thing to say given that we live in the United States.

      • Bandit35

        You are correct. He never said that, he wrote it in his book dreams of my father. Paper trails are much more reliable.

        • trickyblain

          No, he did not. The quote was a total rewording of what's provided above. All the other quotes on that mass email are fabrications as well.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            I have no idea what mass email you are talking about. Must be one of your listservs. The quote, in quotations, that I listed is from page 261 of his book.

          • trickyblain

            I know. I was replying to Bandit.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/AlaskanInfidel AlaskanInfidel

            Facts are facts. You may deny them all you want to…they will still exist despite your propaganda.

            islam is a lie and
            Truth is killing it.

          • trickyblain

            Hey, I have no love for Islam. Where, exactly, is my "propaganda"?

            You attributed a quote to Obama and it was demonstrably proven to be false — he didn't say it or write it. That, dear sir or madaam, is a fact.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            The paraphrase is accurate, though.

          • trickyblain

            Fake but accurate?

            I stand Glen Beck's right to speak his mind and would defend that right to the death. I think he is a certifiable nutcase, but should the politcal winds turn ugly against him, should he be forcibly silenced, I would stand with him and support him in that regard,

            Basically, the equvilent rewrite of the passage is: "I support and stand with Glen Beck."

            Not an accurate revision, nor is the misquote above.

          • Matthew 23:24

            "You blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel." [Matthew 23:24]

          • trickyblain

            "The Devil is in the details." Or, "the kind God is in the details."
            [early 20th century proverb]

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            (I'm timing out trying to post below, so I'm posting here.)
            Yes, but Obama sets up a strawman, and uses the fears expressed by the professional victim communities to bait them.
            "Yes, I know you've had hard stares and FBI agents had to ask you questions." then he says "They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly" bringing up something they didn't bring up, but he is bringing up.
            "Don't forget; Democrats did nasty things to immigrant citizens in the past, and if that should ever happen again, they need reassurances that I am going to stand on their side."
            more

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            He didn't even say that he would stand on their side. He just brought up the strawman and left it there flapping in the wind. He only said that they wanted reassurances that he would.

            But the impression is left that he's "got their back." So you'll forgive the Americans who read that phrase and think that he's "got their back" just as you'll forgive those Muslims who actually think that Obama is looking out for them in case people get their internment dander up again.

            I agree with your logic regarding the argument that you made (Beck), it's just not parallel to the statement Obama originally wrote. Besides, they really are out to silence Beck. Journolist anyone?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            As a restatement of the argument, it's not even close.

            You have inadvertently discovered Obama's gift.

          • trickyblain

            I disagree. My example illustrates the same logic – taking a statement about a specific set of circumstances and rewording a selective part of the statement to portray a meaning that does not exist. The false assertion that Obama said "I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction" leaves myriad possibilites open. It could mean that if the political winds turned ugly because Sharia law was being imposed, Obama would stand with them. It could mean that he would stand with them in reponse to an attack on Iran. It could mean he would stand with them at the expense of other citizens.

            The fact is, Obama was talking about a very specific situation — and writing about very specific rights as citizens. The rewrite of his actual quote was intentional – it seeks to paint Obama as putting Muslims over his own country. It is therefore slimy and dishonest.

          • Kaddafi delenda est

            "slimy [sic] and dishonest" fairly characterizes Obama's actions in the Megrahi affaire.

            But what do folks expect from Rev. Wright's disciple– who donated $400M of US taxpayer money to the Kaddafi clan in the aftermath of Megrahi's triumphant release. http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2009/09/obam

            Oh yes, terrorism still pays… handsomely.

      • AlaskanInfidel

        Have you read his book? That's where the quote comes from.
        I don't rely on mass emails for my sources…nor should you..

        • trickyblain

          No, that quote does not come from his book. It comes straight from a mass email that said it was from the book. Or you made it up and it happens to be the same as that found in the mass email. Regardless, Obama never wrote it.

          • Matt 23:24

            Here is the more complete quote:

            "In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific assurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction." ["The Adacity of Hope", p. 261]

            Obama was referring to standing with Muslim-Americans against (allegedly) "ugly" political winds of FDR policies (an odd formulation for a Democrat).

            trickyblain seems obsessed with drawing distinctions without a difference.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

      Nice to see you, AlaskanInfidel

  • kafir4life

    Muslims…..Aren't they the ones that flew airplanes into several buildings in the NYC area of the USA? Don't they worship a fake moon god invented by a pedophilic maniac that they claim is a "prophet", mad mo? Aren't muslims the ones that read and follow a terror guide named the koran that was shat from the anal orfice of the previously mentioned pedophile, and wish to emulate this disgusted sack of pre-human filth?

    Them the guys? Just curious.

    • Stephen D.

      I think you're right Kafir, I think it's the same folks that think God screwed up so much when he created humans that they have to cover women so Muslim men won't rape them. After all, the men can't help themselves. They are little more than farm animals thanks to being an inadiquate creation. They have to mutilate the women as young girls because, again, God screwed up and the girls would have become aware of their sexuality. They have to kill anyone that would insult Mo because he needs protection. (That's a hell of a statement that God has a prophet whose honor needs protecting from lowly humans.) Yep, Them be the ones….

    • Paul

      "Muslims…..Aren't they the ones that flew airplanes into several buildings in the NYC area of the USA?"

      No, 19 people done that. There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. It would be quite a stretch of generalisation to judge them all on the actions of 19 extremists. Perhaps all Germans are Nazi's, all Brits love the Queen, and all Americans are Democrats?

    • Betsy

      Yep, them the guys!! Excellent comment by the way.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Mo_ Mo_

      Those are the ones. And yet for some reason our so-called President continues to be on their side, at every turn.

  • Cuban Refugee

    Even though Abdelbeset Ali Mohamed al-Megrahi is not an American citizen, this would be a good opportunity to try the new assassination program …

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tanarg tanarg

    The Cold War against the political philosophy of Islam must begin NOW! That is what we need — another Cold War.

  • Reneeca

    Did anyone think that Obama didn't have a hand in the release of this killer? these decisions do not happen without the input of the President of the United states. Our government's position of being adamantly against the release now comes to 'if he is going to be released, it should be on compassionate grounds' is so much hog wash as to be laughable! The public is onto the tactic of sparing the President from culpability for anything controversial by putting the blame for decisions on others to cover his butt! Where is the media? Why aren't the pertinent questions being asked? How can this man get away with so much without having to answer the hard questions about anything? This is incredible! Anyone who doesn't think Obama isn't pushing a Muslim agenda here in America needs to have their head examined. And I am sick of the courts bowing to him in thwarting any kind of investigation into his background on ;no standing.; If we can't get justice by our courts and they even intimidate and want to fine you if you take issues to court about documents or such on Obama, than where is our law and justice? This is insane what's going on in this country!

  • Freedom Warrior

    45 % of the American people think Obama is doing a good job. ?????????????????
    Do these people live in isolation or what? Make no mistake about it, America is in a fight for it's LIFE, with NO HELP AT ALL from the Usefull Dupes and the Media. Will we survive? Only time will tell.

  • Reneeca

    Can I be given a reason why my comment has been eliminated by the administrator. this has never happend to me before andI I resent it.I thought we were free to speak oir mind here. i did not use any profanity. Just asked questions.

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    • DogWithoutSlippers

      You got to be kidding!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/vrabinec vrabinec

    Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it sure looks like a situation whereby BP wanted to drill off LYbia's coast, Lybia asked them to arrange the release of their "hero", BP made some arrangements with either the Presidential nominee who appeared to be heading for election that, if they contributed heavily to his campaing, he would agree to the release, or they perhaps promised more support in 2010 and 2012 elections in exchange for releasing this piece of crap, and a deal was struck. The families of the dead and America were sold out. Maybe I'm worng, but that's sure how this looks right now.

  • DogWithoutSlippers

    America has a huge scab. It must be picked on 11/2 and removed, leaving no trace of a scar and healing to a pre-obama state.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

    I think it is more likely, that per usual, Obama is 100% disinterested in foreign policy, that this incident was read to him like a fourth-grade primer lesson, that he had no proactive thought about what should or should not happen to this murderer.

    There isn't a more disengaged Antoinette on the face of the earth right now. No single incident is to stand in the way of his reshaping the economic and political skeleton of the United States.

    If her name was "Natasha Obama" he might show a spark of interest, but her name was "Kate Hollister," and she was someone else's daughter, and so it doesn't matter to him.

    If he was surprised, it was because he didn't realize the State Department's position was abhorrent to people of moral character. If he was disappointed, it was that people are distracted by the discovery and therefore takes the spotlight off him. If he was angry, it was because no one told him he was supposed to give a rip about the death of 279 people and it made him look stupid to his friends in the media.

    x-posted at jihadwatch.

  • BS77

    The Lockerbie case…very ugly…when this rock is turned over, you will see all kinds of filth and bugs running for cover….especially the Scots who caved in and released the mass murderer on "humanitarian grounds". it's worse than bad fiction.

    • Paul

      The Scots didn't "cave in" to anything. They followed Scots Law to the letter and their Justice Minister, Kenny MacAskill, took a decision based on the values and integrity of Scots Law, right or wrong, that he knew would be unpopular but that nonetheless upheld the values of the justice system he is expected to lead. I appreciate "compassion" isn't a value known to exist in US Justice, and neither was it valued by Megrahi (if he is indeed guilty), but thankfully there are some people in the world who continue to hold themselves to a higher level of account than that of terrorists.

      The ugliness of this case comes entirely from the UK government (and Tony Blair in particular) and their attempts to secure an oil deal with Lybia by agreeing to a Prisoner Transfer Agreement. This agreement was strongly opposed by the Scottish Government and a request for transfer under this agreement was REFUSED. Release on compassionate grounds is an entirely different matter, and one in which niether BP nor the UK government had any part to play.

  • sos

    Once again we see just exactly where our despicable excuse for a commander in chief stands. He is more worried about appeasing islamic sensibilities than he is about the continued pain and grief of the survivors of this monsters victims.

    If we had an honest free press then perhaps more Americans would be aware of his failure to live up to his oath of office. Not to mention his blatant deceptions regarding everything from the economy to national security. It must be a comfort to oba-mao to know that he has nothing to worry about from his lapdogs over in the lame stream!!

    • George

      If you want "honest", "free", or "press" then you're in the wrong place.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/sos sos

        The wrong place? Another kool-aid chugger I presume? This website prints more truth in ONE day than msnbc, abc, cnn, nytimes, wapo, nbc, and the rest of the oba-mao cadre of incompetent media clowns do in a WHOLE month!!!

        If you are calling this site dishonest it just shows your ignorance or your willful delusion. Please do us all a favor and start breaking those pills in half as the percentage levels in your blood are obviously getting dangerously high!!!

        • George

          The article is ridiculous and goes against everything known about the case. Obama had nothing to do with it.

          The only string of fact comes from a UK telegraph article that you and the author of this article didn't bother to read. He probably read it…he just doesn't care because it doesn't support his "conclusions".

          What is the conclusion for you anyway…that Obama to spite saying that he didn't want the guy released, the US government saying not to release him, and to spite him having no power in the decision one way or the other….he secretly wanted the guy released?

          You guys give "blind hate" new meaning.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sos sos

            There you go spewing lies. I DID read the article thank you very much. Did you?!!

            The letter that oba-mao sent said that he preferred his release into Scotland rather than transfer to a Libyan prison. Partly because they were afraid of the hero's welcome that could and did occur upon his arrival in Libya. Why didn't he send a letter condemning ANY release of ANY kind? Compassionate release for a mass-murderer should be unacceptable no matter what.

            Also, blind hate?!! What are you talking about? If I am illogical in my conclusions about the letter then why did the administration try to block it's release? Umm……because they knew that anyone with a modicum of common sense would be furious with the content of the letter!!

            Lastly your reading comprehension looks to be on par with your mastery of the English language. I wrote about my conclusion in my original post, but since you obviously missed it here it is again; the president is more worried about appeasing muslims than he is about the families of the victims. By the way genius, it's "despite" what obambi said not "to spite!!"

          • Matthew 23:24

            The agony this decision causes victims' families (widows, orphans, aging parents) is nothing to B. Hussein Obama when compared to the "good will" he's secured with the ummah.

            Fun Fact: The convicted mass murderer of 189 American innocents enjoys superstar status, repeatedly feted as a “much-loved” hero of the Libyan people. According to Megrahi’s family, he has received up to 30,000 house guests – a white tent was erected in the garden for visitors – while newborn babies across Libya have been named after him. Gaddafi family members have also made several private visits, friends say.

            Terrorism still pays… handsomely.

  • clarence

    i winder if Hamas would release Gilat (the Israeli solder kidnapped since 2006) should he become seriously ill?
    It is written "whoa those who call evil good and good evil"
    But this wicked unrepentant mass murdered Abdelbeset Ali Mohamed al-Megrahi will one stand before the THRONE OF THE KING of kings and LORD of lords and account for every murdered of panam 103 and Gaddafi won't be able to help him because they will be joining the self proclaim prophet Mohammed in the lake of fire.

  • George

    Yes, but what questions did you ask? It's not as free as they let on. You don't hear people complain, because they simply cut people off or ban their IP.

  • Paul

    Alex Salmond, Scotland's First Minister, has been an oasis of measured intellect in this frienzied episode of shameful politicking by Obama and David Cameron. The rights or wrongs of the decision taken to free Megrahi on campassionate grounds will be debated for years to come, but there's absolutely no question whatsoever that the Scottish Government followed anything but the values and integrity of Scots Law, under the jurisdiction of which this case fell.

    This whole episode is nothing more than US politicians attempting to drag BP further into the mud for some cheap political point scoring. And the more they try to drag the Scottish Government into it the worse they appear. US Senators would do well to remember how they faired in their cheap attempts to defame George Galloway, and be aware that Salmond is more than capable of repeating that performance if ever he were to accept the Senators' somewhat arrogant request that he gives evidence at their hearing.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

      It's "fared." And it is hard to defame Galloway. Anything one could say about him in his support of terrorism is likely to be true. He is the worst kind of dhimmi.

      • Paul

        And what evidence do you have to support this that the US Senate committee investigating him didn't? The committee was made to look like a kindergarten class being tought in a lesson in quantum mechanics.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

          Anyone posting here on this magazine knows Galloway is a shill for Muslims. He's married to one, and he is a parade-leading rabblerouser. He believes those poor terrorists are just freedom fighters, poor dears.

          • Paul

            I hadn't realised that marrying a Muslim was tantamount to supporting terror, if only the Senate committee had a copy of his marriage certificate perhaps they could have nailed him.

          • Paul

            Perhaps they should watch this :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrdFFCnYtbk

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Galloway is a leftist spotlight-hogging activist who happens to be sitting in a government position. Oh yes, all the Iraqi children. Sanctions are bad, except when they're boycotts against Israel.
            Waah.

  • Ron

    First as to "CancerPartnersUK" – Either they lied deliberately because they had other "ideological" reasons for wanting this guy released; or, if they didn't lie, then this stands as proof of the ineptness of UK's Health Care system which Obama and Company are attempting to push on America!

    Second: This is just another example of Obama lying to the American People deliberately.

    Third: Will someone please tell me the logic of sentencing a criminal to life in prison for a crime that deserved that punishment at the very least; and, then turning them loose because they are dying????????

    • Paul

      Megrahi wasn't "turned loose" he was allowed home to die in his bed with his family. While he is still alive despite his prognosis that he would be dead within three months if left in Greenock Prison, he nonetheless has terminal prostate cancer and will die very soon. The question then is about what kind of society we want to live in and what values we want to live by? Do we place more value on ensuring that we take every remaining day of Megrahi's life in return for those lives he took (a valid belief), or do we hold ourselves to a higher standard than Megrahi and allow a dying man home to die with his family? It's a hard ethical choice, but clearly the moral highground is paved with compassion, not vengence.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

        Yeah, except now they're saying he's got probably about ten years to live and the only doctor who said three months wasn't corroborated by any of her colleagues.

        You were saying?

        • Paul

          Again, you clearly have posession of evidence that no-one else in the world has. Five consultants (!) supported the prognosis of three months, which was put into a report to the Chief Medical Officer of the Prison Service and submitted to the Justice Minister for consideration, along with recommendations from the Parole Board. Ironically, the only medic who wouldn't put a prognosis on Megrahi's life expectancy was the one that the Lybian's were paying to treat him (presumably he felt it might discredit his treatment to suggest his patient had a poor prognosis).

          Megrahi remains on his death bed. That he is still alive beyond three months is likely a result of the fact that he is no longer languishing in a Scottish prison and is instead receiving the best medical care that Lybian money can buy. Regardless, there's no question that the Scots based their decision on strict legal criteria and sound medical advice. Suggesting otherwise would be a ridiculous stretch of assumption and conspiracy.

          • winoceros

            Here is the first article supporting what you write above.
            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politi

            Then, as the truth unfolded, we learn that actually it wasn't four specialists who concurred, only four specialists who were consulted:
            http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Medica

            Then, just to top it all off and make it a mockery of justice, we learn that this Professor Sikora, the only one to put name on a prognosis of three months, in a country of socialized "free" medicine, was paid for his consultation of El Megrahi's condition: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaa

            So I don't know where you're getting this information, but it's all out there. I guess we're all on our death beds, aren't we.

            No comfort to my dead pledge sister, Kate, or her family, though, is it?

          • Paul

            Clearly, you hold a naural leaning towards conspiracy. This is evident from your tendency to give unreasonable weight to "evidence" without due consideration to the context or the bigger picture (re your views that a majority of Mulsim's hate us in the West, your view that George Galloway supports terror, your assertion that Nelson Mandella is racist….) Consequently, there's nothing I can so, no amount of evidence or context I can apply to your logic that will ever change how you think.

            To you, the natural scepticism of a clinician (they are trained to be sceptical – this is a good thing) is evidence of conspiracy. To you, the fact that a man naturally lives longer in his home with medical care than he would in a Scottish prison is evidence that no-one could ever have given a genuine prognosis of three months. To you, the full publication of every bit of documentation held by the Scottish Government, making it the most open and transparent case I am aware of in the world, can do nothing to quell your lust for conspiracy.

            There's nothing I can add that will be of any value to you in the Lockerbie debate.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Clearly, you have a problem reading what's written.

            Nowhere did I mention a conspiracy of any sort, nor have I seen any convincing proof of some kind of oil/BP/government thing, although it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

            (more)

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            My responses to you have been on point. I point out that the skeptical people were correct, and the doctor who put an imprimatur of three months on el-Megrahi was unsupported, and beyond that, the government said there was a consensus, when there was not. That is what I provided evidence for.

            You also asked if I supported compassionate release. Under certain rare circumstances, of course. But not for this murdering son of a bitch. Also, please tell me all about the great medical care in Libya that's so great that U.K. physicians and nurses have to go there to do charity work.

            It is not my "view" that Muslims have a negative opinion of Americans. The view comes from the surveyed Muslims. You chose to ignore the survey or its validity.

            (more)

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            I can't believe you don't understand the part about the government lying about a consensus, when only one doctor was willing to go with a short prognosis.

            Do you not see they lied to obtain a political gain of some kind?

            You must not read anything or you would see what Galloway's raison d'etre actually is.

            You must not be reading about the white farmers being slaughtered, beaten and run off their own properties because they are white. You also don't read because you don't know the ANC is a communist organization.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Every answer I gave to you is specific and supported. That you can't be bothered with an important survey regarding the opinion of the Muslim world means you have your head in the proverbial sand. It's not my view that the Muslims have a negative opinion of Americans. It's the Muslims' view. Not believing my report doesn't make it all better.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Rifleman Rifleman

        He didn't allow those 259 passengers, crew, and townspeople home to die with their families. If he wanted to die at home with his family he shouldn't have murdered. We already hold ourselves to a higher standard than megrahi, by giving him a trial, allowing him to live at all, or ever see his family again at all. His life is already being valued above the lives any or even all of his victims'.

        Letting him go (spare us the nonsense, he's out of the prison, out of the country, and as free as a 'hero' can be in Libya) is not only travesty for the victims and their families, it encourages such attacks and even justifies them to the islamists. This will be used to inspire terrorists to commit mass murder for years to come.

        Shortsighted and unjust is not the kind of society I want to live in, and I value a murderers life or comfort less than any one of their victims.

        • Paul

          Good point, well made, but I don't agree that releasing Megrahi encourages other terrorists. In my opinion, it simply demonstrates quite clearly the stark difference in values between "us" and "them" and that must be a good thing, surely.

          I'm no moral compass and I tend to deffer to more worthy people than me on ethical questions like this. Nelson Mandella is arguably the best commentator on this issue, and given his role in securing Megrahi's conviction in the first place is well placed to pass judgement. He fully supports the decision to release Megrahi on compassionate grounds and send him home to die. In this case, I'm inclined to put greater weight on Mandella's opinion than that of Obama or David Cameron.

          • Matthew 23:24

            Naturally, the Grand Wizard of 'necklacing' terrorism applauds this miscarriage of justice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing

            Mandela claimed Megrahi’s imprisonment in The Kaddafi Cafe (with his family visiting from Megrahi’s Scottish estate) was “psychological torture.”

            Paul clearly has no moral compass.

            /negative credibility

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Mandela is on video chanting anti-kuffir songs with Muslims. Paul, you're a big fan of youtube. Maybe you can manage to look that one up.

            As an atheist, I can understand your desparate search for someone to tell you what is right and meaningful, but may I suggest you cast your net in another direction.

            "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

          • Paul

            My moral compass comes from the same Darwinian processes as yours, not an invisible man in the sky, but that is wildly off-topic.

            I'd be happy to look at the Mandella video if it really exists and you have a reference? Have you seen it yourself or is this simpy rumour? Is everyone who disagrees with you considered a supporter or terror? So far I've noted George Galloway (many might agree with you) and now Nelson Mandella (this is a new one to me).

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Why do you refuse to look for facts on topics that interest you? And I meant anti-white, not anti-kuffir, sorry. I get my death-threats mixed up sometimes.

            Here you go:
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4gv7isyXMI&fe

          • Paul

            That was actually quite interesting, thanks.

            A couple of points worth noting to put the video into context however:

            1. Mandella's lips never moved, although clearly there's an element of guilt by association.

            2. There's debate about the origin of the word Ama Bhulu. The original meaning of the word refers to Dutch colonists although modern definitions are a little more ambiguous. Many suggest that it means white people in general, others suggest it refers to Apartheid.

            3. God Save The Queen is the UKs national anthem and is sung by many, including the Royal Family. It contains a reference to marching up to Scotland to kill the Jacobites (Scots). This is an old song, rooted in historical conflicts that have little context in a modern world. I suspect the same could be said for the song in this video (although perhaps some continue to apply the racist meaning to it).

            The bottom line is that on evidence I happen to consider Mandella to be an authorotative figure on matters of ethics and social justice and will continue to consider his opinion on Megrahi to be of weight.

          • Kaddafi delenda est

            Paul's silly confession says more about the moral depravity of atheists; even while it denies the mountain of evidence demonstrating Megrahi guilt.

            The sober Scottish Lords– who patiently heard the evidence and convicted Megrahi– sat beneath the ancient Scottish motto “Nemo Me Impune Lacessit” which roughly translates as “Don’t cut at me and expect to get away with it.”

            Last year, in a fit of delusional sentimentalism (or alcoholic dementia– or both), one stinking drunk and disorderly ‘Justice’ Minister tossed centuries of Scottish principle down the filthiest toilet in Edinburgh.

            No amount of magesterial posturing (or fallacious appeals to Mandela's authority) will whitewash this disgraceful blood money for BP oil deal.

            Billion Euro Q: How many shares of BP does Mandela own?

            /Kaddafi delenda est

          • Paul

            I am reluctant to give your post a sense of credibility by replying to it. You can use as passionate and vitriolic rhetoric as you like, it doesn't change the facts in this case.

            1. Mergahi was convicted by three judges, not a jury, and therefore questions will always remain over the validity of his conviction.

            2. MacAskill followed due legal process in releasing Megrahi on compassionate grounds.

            3. MacAskill and the Scottish Government campaigned AGAINST the Prisoner Transfer Agreement that BP lobbied the UK government for and the REFUSED Megrahi's subsequent transfer request.

            If you can't distinguish between two separate legal processes (Prisoner Transfer and compassion release) managed by two different governments under two different justice systems (Scottish and UK) then I suggest you educate yourself before shouting "conspiracy".

            P.S. The fact that I'm an aetheist has nothing to do with it. Personal insults merely demonstrate your lack of moral character, not mine.

          • Kaddafi delenda est

            Paul can't make up his mind: First he appeals to authority (Mandela cult worship), which is a logical fallacy.

            Having failed that tactic, Paul now pretends the ruling of the Camp Zeist international tribunal was somehow invalid. An assertion objectively refuted by the fact that every Megrahi appeal FAILED.

            Paul then leaps to the specious assertion that MacAskill's executive privilege somehow trumps judicial process. Process (like might) does not make it right.

            Finally, Paul has the temerity to parrot Juval Aziz, then climb up on his hind legs and howl about "conspiracy." Physician, heal thyself.

            Moving the goalpost won't change the outcome.

            Megrahi remains guilty as sin.

            Don't be an atheistic apologist for mass murdering jihadists your whole life, Paul.

          • Paul

            OK, I'll bite:

            1. Mandella? Cult Workship? I'm an atheist. You're the one who prays to an invisible man who lives in the sky. I accept only what is proven through scientific rigour (a concept you should perhaps apply in this case).

            2. Megrahi's appeals certainly did NOT fail. He had to withdraw his appeal in order to meet the criteria for compassionate release (compassionate release does not account for ongoing trials) – get your facts straight.

            3. Where did I suggest that MacAskill's executive privilege trumps judicial process? I have consistently stated that he was following due judicial process, and refuting conspiracy theories that suggest otherwise.

            I am no apologist for a mass murderer, I'm simply defending the actions of the Scottish Government against unfounded accusations of conspiracy based on peoples poor understanding of the case, their tendency towards conspiracy, their borderline biggotted views on Muslims and their appetite for vengence.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Paul, I'm really sorry. I'm sure you're a really nice guy and all. I am not just some angry person who is mad because someone disagrees with me. I am just so incredulous that intelligent people won't try to find things out for themselves, and then use logic to sort the wheat from the chaff.

          • Paul

            Likewise.

          • Anti-idiotarian

            Ha! Paul doesn't use logic. His silly appeal to authority (Exalted Cyclops Mandela) is logical fallacy on stilts.

            Own it, atheist.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            He's almost textbook…"Appeal to authority fallacy," page 26. "Tu quoque," page 27. "Ad populum" page 24. "Weak analogy," page 28.

            Paul, get thee to your local community college's logic class and develop that mind of yours! You've clearly got the compassion, courage and drive. What you have to do is be able to pick the way an argument is given to you apart. George Galloway? Really? Holy cow.

          • Paul

            Oh please! Grand Wizrds? Exalted Cyclops'? And you're title is anti-idiotarian? Like logic, irony is a concept that clearly escapes you.

          • Anti-idiotarian

            The necklacing vigilantism fits, so Mandela must wear it. The irony arises when Leftists genuflect before the altar of ANC-supremacism.

            Own it, atheist.

          • Paul

            So you're suggesting what? That Megrahi's appeal was not withdrawn? That MacAskill did not follow the legal process for compassionate release, despite all the documentation (actual documentation, not newspaper articles) clearly showing otherwise? Where's the chaff? Or are you just refuting everything I say because I disagree with you?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            One more time. The clinician who would actually put his name on the short-term prognosis, Sikori, was the only one. But when MacAskill made his decision, the report showed that there was a consensusof opinion, not just one doctor's opinion.

            I further posited that it was odd, though I draw no conclusion from it, that a doctor in a socialized-medicine country, treating a prisoner, would have been paid for his consultation.

            I'm sure they jumped through their hoops. What you're missing is that they should not have been jumping through any hoops for this murderer. He should have died in prison, cold and alone, like all other hospital patients in the NHS system.

          • Paul

            Fact 1: Megrahi is dying of terminal prostate cancer.

            Fact 2: Several consultant physicians provided evidence to the chief medical officer of the prison service that collectively concluded that Megrahi would die within 3 months if he remained in Greenock prison.

            Fact 3: MacAskill's decision to release Megrahi was based on these facts, plus recommendations from the Parole Board and the Police.

            Fact 4: Medical assessments are not funded by the UK's National Health Service, it is the norm that they are paid for.

            Fact 5: It was stated from day one that Megrahi may live shorter, or may live longer than 3 months. He has lived longer.

            These are facts, and do not suggest that anything other than due process was followed in Megrahi's release.

          • Kaddafi delenda est

            Paul can get a running start to stick his nose up MacAskill's arse. But do not presume to tell me what I may and may not suggest about this odious oil-for-terrorist deal.

            Paul's silly recital of MacAskill talking points says much about the parroting skills of atheists; even as it continues to ignore the obvious.

            The sober Scottish Lords– who patiently heard the evidence and convicted Megrahi– sat beneath the ancient Scottish motto “Nemo Me Impune Lacessit” which roughly translates as “Don’t cut at me and expect to get away with it.”

            Last year, in a fit of delusional sentimentalism (or alcoholic dementia– or both), one stinking drunk and disorderly ‘Justice’ Minister tossed centuries of Scottish principle down the filthiest toilet in Edinburgh.

            No amount of magesterial posturing (or fallacious appeals to discredited Medical experts) will whitewash this disgraceful blood money for BP oil deal.

            Billion Euro Q: How many shares of BP do MacAskill's Scottish medical "experts" own?

            /Kaddafi delenda est

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            "the filthiest toilet in Edinburgh."

            those would be the squat toilets your local "Asian" population is insisting be installed.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Fact 1 may or may not be true. Either way, I hope he suffers.

            Your fact number 2 is incorrect. For the fourth time, Dr. Sikora was the only physician in the group to say 3 months. No one else would put a time table on it. But the documentation showed to MacAskill said they all agreed. It was not true. That is the scandal.

            Assuming anyone thought compassionate release could be justifiable in the first place is the other. Oil aside.

          • Paul

            Again, your assertion that only one physician out of the group concurred with the 3 months prognosis is incorrect. Don't simply read a news article and believe it just because it fits in with your tendencies towards conspiracy. It was probably written by someone just like you.

            It is indeed a fact that the consensus of medical opinion, as reviewed by the chief medical officer of the prison service and reported to the Justice Minister was that Megrahi would likely die within three months if he remained in Greenock prison. Whether or not 1 or 100 physicians signed the document is irrelevant, there was indeed consensus.

            You're fond of evidence (which is great) so have a look at the Scottish Goverment website which contains all of the documentation (not simply news articles) on the case. If you can find ANYTHING in there that suggests a conspiracy, get back to me. And if you do indeed read it, you'll be more informed that the arrogant, grant-standing senators investigating the case.

          • Anti-idiotarian

            The physicians' 3 month prognosis was imperically WRONG. Like Paul's silly "arguments," their medical credibility has detonated.

            Megrahi's criminal indictment specifically cites "did conspire together and with others." If Paul doesn't believe a criminal conspiracy existed to destroy Clipper Maid of the Seas, then Paul's problem is with the mountains of evidence that convicted Megrahi; which was also upheld upon appeal.

            Don't be a morally and intellectually bankrupt apologist for jihadist mass murder your whole life, Paul.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            tu quoque

            and what the happy horse pucky is social justice, anyway? Reparations? Getting the whites back?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Rifleman Rifleman

            That's interesting first sentence Paul. I didn't mention the secular logic of my reply to your thoughtful and kind post above originally came from my religious beliefs (Baptist, FYI), but it did. I figured you were probably an atheist and it would have no relevance to you, so I left it out. It may help your understanding and others of similar thought, so it may be relevant and helpful to you after all.

            It's because I believe when the time comes I'll have to stand alone before God to answer for my life that I must take responsibility for myself, do my own thinking, and make my own judgments. On the same token, no Preacher will be standing there beside me so I can't defer to them either.

            Sure, consider the input of those one respects and/or considers credible, but don't defer to them.

            Terror has been standard marxist revolutionary doctrine since Lenin, and islamist doctrine since muhammed. The Warsaw Pact trained PLO and other islamic terrorists in the same camps they trained red brigades, IRA, and other western terrorist organizations. That's not to say people can't change, that's another basic tenant of my religion.

          • Matthew 23:24

            Lest we forget, Qaddafi’s own rehabilitation began with the intervention of that unrepentant, necklassing, crypto-Marxist/terrorist, St. Nelson Mandela.

            After 9/11, I predicted we’d live to see the day when Qaddafi became a peace emissary (like his mentor, St. Nelson) by rehabilitating Osama bin-Laden.

            Behold: Watch it happen.

            Qaddafi says: 'Bin Laden wants peace' http://hotair.com/archives/2009/01/22/qaddafi-bin

            Sometimes I hate being right.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Rifleman Rifleman

            There's nobody more worthy to make your moral judgments than you, Paul. Like your thoughts, actions, or lack of, you're ultimately responsible for them. You may choose not to devote the time and thought to noodle it out for yourself, but the quality of your posts tells me it isn't a matter of can't.

            Mandella and the ANC were Cold War comrades of Quadaffy and his terrorists, many of them trained in the same Warsaw Pact camps. Mandella's support for his release is understandable and to be expected.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Don't bother Paul with reading things, Rifleman. He'll just create the facts that keep his happy little place clean and tidy.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Rifleman Rifleman

            The jihadis view such acts of leniency as allah’s hand clouding the minds of his enemies, weakening them, and delivering the faithful from their hands. It's the same basic thinking of many tribal warrior cultures throughout the world. Many American Indians, like the Apache, had the same perspective, only they would say the reason you couldn't kill them was your medicine was weak and/or theirs was strong. It only encourages them, and those considering the same path, to do their worst.

            Taking into account their culture and the way they think can save a lot of lives on both sides over the long haul.

  • kansas

    If a story falls in the forest and the Obama media doesn't report it, did it make a sound?

    • kafir4life

      Fortunately, it seems to be getting louder despite Barry's Press Corp's attempt to control it.

  • kafir4life

    Here….I'll fix that for you..
    19 muslims, operating under the direction of the koran and the pedophilic prophet mad mo, utilizing a plan devised by the islamic shiek osama bin laden and his fellow co-religionists done that.

    You're welcome.

    Oh….and there were a few more incidents prior to and since 9/11/2001, submitted to us by the most pious of the muslims.

    • Paul

      I think you're right in the sense that Islam has the capacity to corrupt otherwise good people, but then that's the case with all religions.

      Hitler was a Catholic and was deeply spiritual so should all Catholics accept responsibility for his actions? He and Stalin both had a mustache so perhaps everyone with a mustache is the same. Of course not. Similarly, very few of the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world fly airplanes into buildings or strap bombs to themselves so to suggest the that the description you gave should be applied to all Muslims is a tad unreasonable don't you think?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

        Hitler was not a Catholic except in some birthright sense. And it doesn't matter because even in Mein Kampf he lamented that Christianity had to be the vehicle for the nationalism he knew he had to foment. He thought it was a horrid choice for what needed to be done, and that Islam would probably have been better.

        Yes, it's a fallacy of composition. But the religion itself, as described by OP kafir4life after the part about the planes, is correctly described, is it not?

        • Paul

          The description is arguably correct (although as I say, it can be well argued that such a description could be applied to all religions). I'd like to believe that most people can distinguish between a religion and a race of people however. That Islam arguably promotes hatred doesn't imply that all Muslims hate. Christianity promotes stoning Adulterers, but very few Christians would support such a punishment. Similarly, very few Muslim support the flying of planes into buildings, don't you agree?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            No, Christianity does not promote stoning adulterers. Where would you get such a silly idea?

            It would be very nice, very nice indeed if people would distinguish between race and religion.

            If, by "very few", you mean less then half of a billion people, then, yes, you're probably right.

            If, by "very few", you mean a small percentage, say, only a couple million people, then pardon me if I don't whip out the champagne.

            In the "Public Opinion in the Islamic World on Terrorism, al Qaeda, and U.S. Policies" poll from last year, 40% of Indonesians and 43% of Pakistanis share al Qaeda's attitudes toward the U.S. Even mild, tolerant, multicultural Azerbaijan's Muslims have a 10% approval rate of bin Laden. Even just using the surveyed folks alone, I wouldn't let my American children walk down the street there. What don't you get? They hate you. They can barely tolerate you, and they want your Western a&s to provide them every commodity and innovation they desire.

          • Paul

            "What don't you get? They hate you. They can barely tolerate you, and they want your Western a&s to provide them every commodity and innovation they desire"

            Read this sentence again and consider how it may apply to a Jordanian, or Lebanese, or Kuwaiti, or Iraqi and their opinion of America. In the same way that you see them as intollerant, hateful towards you and yet relying on your country for luxury, they see you as intollerant of their culture, hateful towards all of them because of the actions of a few, and relying on their oil and their wealth for your luxuries. And of course you're both wrong!

            It's simply not true that so many Muslim's hate you. I have met many, in many parts of the world, and I've never had a single negative word with any of them. How could it be that you, who have no doubt met only few Muslims (if any) and who likely has never experienced a Muslim country or community first hand can have such a strong opinion?

            Drop your fear, open your eyes, and you'll find a glorious world outside where hate occupies only the minds of the hateful and everyone else gets along just fine.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            (Is it appropriate to roll my eyes yet?)

          • Matthew 23:24

            Leftists don’t confront real evil; and hate those who do. You can see this on almost any school playground. The kid who confronts the school bully is often resented more than the bully. Whether out of guilt over their own cowardice or out of fear that the one who confronted the bully will provoke the bully to lash out more, those who refuse to confront the bully often resent the one who does.

            Today, Leftists express that cowardly contempt for those of us who take a hard line with Qaddafi. It's ever our fault (you see) for provoking the bully. Better to remain supine while Q satisfies himself prison-raping EU nurses; tormenting American widows and orphans; parading his henchmen triumphantly.

            The Leftist answer: Just stay (compassionately) quiet… and hope the croc eats you last.

            There's a word for that: Cowardice.

            Own it, Obama cultists.

          • Paul

            "No, Christianity does not promote stoning adulterers. Where would you get such a silly idea?"

            This will be the same Christianity that promotes compassion and mercy? Perhaps you should try practising what you preach.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            1. You don't answer the question. What is your basis for your assertion? Back it up.

            2. When did I say I was a practicing Christian?

            3. To whom did you want me to show compassion and mercy? Muslims? Yes, they have my undying compassion and mercy.

          • Paul

            1. Where on Earth did you get those figures and what exactly were the polls asking? I suspect a poll of everyone in the UK and Ireland during the height of the IRA's terror attrocities would have shown a large percentage of people fully supported the IRA's perceived "cause" while abhoring their actions. I suspect the same may be true for many Muslims regarding Al Qaeda.

            2. Regardless, we should all practise greater levels of compassion and mercy.

            3. Everyone. To discriminate against one particular race is racist. Are you suggesting some races are more worthy of compassion than others?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            I gave you the quoted name of the study. It was an exhaustive survey. Results were published in Feb of 09. It's just .pdf you can get yourself online. I combined the "approve" and "mixed feelings" regarding Osama bin Laden. I'm sure you see why.

            2. I don't know why you would think I was not compassionate nor merciful, so I don't understand the orginal non sequitur.

            3. Are you really trying to claim Muslims are a race? I didn't suggest anything. You're the one that said I should be practicing what I "preach" and I have no idea to what you are referring. I don't mind a conversation, but the lack of a coherent narraitve is hard for me.

          • Paul

            You don't support Megrahi's release from prison, correct? From your posts on here I see you were not in favour of compassionate release. I'm suggesting that compassion and mercy are traits worth portraying, and showing compassion to someone who is unwilling to show compassion to you is a worthy trait.

          • Kaddafi delenda est

            MacAskill’s “compassionate release” lie was a thin veil for the other ‘quid pro quo.’ The Lockerbie bomber’s release was another payment on Kaddafi’s terrorist extortion demands that secured release of his brutally prison raped and tortured EU nurse hostages.
            =====
            FLASHBACK 2007: Qaddafi Wants Money and Lockerbie Attacker for Nurses’ Release http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=75328

            This bald-faced hostage extortion payoff does not bode well for Iran’s UC-Berkeley student hostages. Where is your sense of "compassion" for them?

          • Paul

            Around 40 people have been released from Scottish prisons in the past few years after meeting the criteria for "compassionate release". This is a value that has existed in Scots Law longer than America has existed as a nation. Was Gadaffi behind all those other prisoners released on the same grounds? Or could it simply be the case that (right or wrong) Kenny MacAskill followed the processes and values of Scots Law?

          • Anti-idiotarian

            Did anyone assert that Kaddafi was behind ALL the other releases?

            Paul's reflex to ignite these very silly strawman arguments does not reflect well on his reasoning skills.

            Scottish legal process for "compassionate release" doesn't permit clear "conflict of interest" for (say) payment of the doctor by co-conspirators in the crime. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaa

            Try to keep up.

          • Paul

            I'm simply trying to make two points:

            1. I, and many others, agree that releasing Megrahi was the "right" thing to do. Many people disagree of course.

            2. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Scottish Government followed anything other than the letter and value of Scots Law. The Lybians were paying for Megrahi's treatment, not his prognosis. In fact, ironically, the Lybian funded doctor is the only one who wouldn't put a prognosis on Megrahi's life expectancy. The murkiness of the entire issue comes from the UK government agreeing to a Prison Transfer Agreement on the same day as BP signed an oil deal. You may not be aware, but the Scottish Government strongly OPPOSED this agreement at the time, REFUSED the request for prisoner transfer, and the UK government has no say in matters of Scottish Justice.

            The right or wrongs of the decision to release Mergahi aside, there's not a shred of evidence that the Scottish authorities acted with anything other then integrity at all times.

          • Matt 23:24

            One purpose of investigations is to obtain evidence. Many idiotarians seem satisfied with giving Leftist politicians the benefit of the doubt. You are (thankfully) in the minority; and (moreover) have no legal standing in the matter– unlike the victims families who are demanding answers.

            Mountains of incriminating evidence are accumulating (cited here at length) that raise grave suspicion as to the integrity of MacAskill's decision.

            Medical evidence that helped Megrahi to be released was paid for by his Libyan co-conspirators. That is a far cry from "integrity at all times."

            Paul is a demonstrably unserious person.

          • Anti-idiotarian

            Medical evidence that helped MacAskill justify releasing Megrahi was paid for by Libyan co-conspirators in the crime.

            That is hardly acting with "integrity at all times."

          • Paul

            That's simply not true. MacAskill's decision was based on a report from the Chief Medical Officer of the Scottish Prison Service and recommendations from the Parole Board and Strathclyde Police. The Libyan doctor treating Megrahi did indeed send MacAskill a report on his status but this was four days AFTER he had been released.

          • Anti-idiotarian

            If that is true than you should be able to cite your source. You have mine.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Didn't you just get through telling me there was a consensus?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Sorry, this is one of the lamest arguments I've seen in a while.

            "40 people in my freshman class have their school paid for by their parents. Therefore, my school will be paid for by my parents."

            That is not a valid argument for the point you are trying to make. Your last sentence is closer.

          • Anti-idiotarian

            FLASHBACK 2009: The Church of Scotland intervened in the case of the Lockerbie bomber, urging the government to free the man convicted of the worst terrorist atrocity in British history. http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Free-Lockerbie-

            Bob Monetti of New Jersey, whose son Rick was among the victims of the bombing, said: “This is nonsense. This is the first word I have ever heard from the Church of Scotland in 21 years. They didn’t send us any condolences, they didn’t send us any support.

            “The reason the United States has separation of church and state is because church people usually get it wrong. I’d like to be compassionate but this man may die next week or he may live 10 years.”

            /shame on Scotland

          • Paul

            Fair point, I too believe in a separation of church and state. The Church of Scotland were not the only people to support the granting of compassionate release however. As I mentioned in another post, Nelson Mandella, an authorotative worldwide figure on such issues, particularly in this case given his role in Megrahi's conviction, fully supported the release. As did the official representative of the UK victims familes. For me, this simply comes down to an ethical question, and of course there are always strong views on either side of such issues.

          • Matthew 23:24

            Naturally, Paul admires the Grand Wizard of 'necklacing' terrorism who applauded this miscarriage of justice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing

            Mandela also claimed Megrahi’s imprisonment in The Kaddafi Cafe (with his family visiting from Megrahi’s Scottish estate) was “psychological torture.”

            Paul clearly has no moral compass.

            /negative credibility

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Paul, the problem with the current leftist church dogma of the definition of "compassion" is that it denies compassion to the people who need it most: the families of the victims. There are well over a thousand immediate family members who visit empty memorial sites every year or will never have grandchildren because of this man.

            Your misplaced definition of compassion is shows an astounding lack of moral character. And you don't need to be a God-fearing Christian to know it, either.

          • Paul

            I'm no God-fearing Christian (I'm an atheist in fact), but I feel strongly that it shows strength of moral character to show mercy and compassion to a dying man, even one who showed no mercy or compassion to his victims. There's nothing we can do to grant mercy or compassion to the victims families (appeasing an appetite for vengance, regardless how justified someone may be, is not the same as granting them compassion).

            Regardless, this is a moral issue. The rights or wrongs of this aside, there's no evidence that the Scottish Government done anything other than follow the letter and value of Scots Law in this case. The UK government on the other hand, and the US government, have continued to play politics with the issue.

          • Anti-idiotarian

            The Nazis also pled for mercy at Neuremberg (though they showed none for their victims). Like Paul here– and many neo-Com Leftists today who attend pro-jihadist street riots (masquerading as "peace" protest), they too were anti-Christian, neo-pagan and atheist Marxists. For readers interested in a more detailed discussion, read Dr. John J. Ray’s “Hitler’s Persecution of the Christian Churches” @ http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-left

            The historical evidence clearly demonstrates that the 20th century’s bloodiest mass murderers— Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Honneker, Mussolini, Caeucescu, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi, il Sung, Mugabe, Mengistu, Castro, Che, PFLP, PKK, FMLN, FARC, IRA, ETA, Red Army faction, Shining Path, Rachel Carson, etc., ad nauseum— were all inspired by atheistic Marxism.

            100 million corpses don’t lie. Show some intellectual honesty and own it, Paul.

            The evidence has been presented at length in this thread and elsewhere. If Paul chooses to ignore or deny it, then folks can draw their own conclusions as to who's playing politics.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            You just make stuff up, don't you?

            When did I say I wasn't in favor of compassionate release?

          • Paul

            So you do support Megrahi's release? I take it back.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            You can't be for real.

            I don't back down from any facts, my friend, but I don't do dumb. Good luck.

          • Paul

            Enlighten me. I've made what I thought was a fairly safe assumption that you were against Megrahi's release on compassionate grounds and you have picked me up on it – a fair point if indeed my assumption is wrong. Am I wrong? Or are you simply fishing for meaningless debate?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            I am not for a compassionate release of el Megrahi. Correct.

            I am not against compassionate release where the circumstances might warrant. I answer you very specifically, specific to the questions you ask me.

          • winoceros

            Again, if only 10% of Muslims agreed with al Qaeda's tactics against American civilians and soldiers, those odds would be okay with you? Then, you, my friend, are just hanging around waiting for the next Pan Am 103.

          • Paul

            No of course not, but that's not what the poll says. It refers to people agreeing with the "cause" of resisting American imperialism (whether you or agree that this is an accurate reflection of American foreign policy is irrelevant), it doesn't confirm that 10% of Muslims would like to see us all dead. As I said, a large portion of people in the UK and Ireland agreed with the IRA's "cause" but that doesn't mean they wanted to kill everyone.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            Dude:
            Agree with attacks on US Civilians in US and Abroad: page 5
            Agree with attacks on US Servicemembers in Muslim countries: pages 9 and 10
            Agree with bin Laden: page 24

            Want more? Too many words?

            page 26: support for groups that attack Americans, 25%+
            page 29: role of any Shari'a in their own country: 75%+
            page 22: agree with al Qaeda's goal of strict Shari'a in every Islamic country: over 50%

            Didn't see this poll on the Huffington Post or ABC, did you? Well they don't want you to know because they think it's irrelevant or scary.

            Best understatement from the report: "This suggests that many Muslims may have conflicted feelings about al Qaeda."

          • Paul

            Who was polled, how many people were sampled, and who conducted the poll? I suspect the reason we don't see such things published is because they completely lack credibility.

            I read a poll recently that stated that 53% of American's didn't know that the Sun is a star. I don't believe this for a second, and I don't beleive the poll you're referring to is an accurate reflection of Mulsim sentiment around the world either.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            I am just flabbergasted that a seemingly intelligent person like you doesn't know how to google, or bing, or whatever it is that you know how to do. Put the title in the search engine,and when you've read the 25 or so page report, then we have something to talk about. Do you seriously think I would put some facebook internet poll up there as a discussion point?
            Do you think people are against Islam because they haven't done their homework and they're just bigots? Your refusal to do the work is very telling.

            Again, after you do the work and want to talk context, then get back to us.

            Unreal.

          • Anti-idiotarian

            What Paul indulges (above) is a logical fallacy known as “tu quoque.” Of course, even if the cited indictments of Judaism held true, G’s silly strawman argument does not speak to the substance of the letter— which is whether (as Islam claims) Muhammad was the most upright man, worthy of being emulated by devout Muslims, like Megrahi?

            Try stepping outside the cozy, sheltered bubble and put away the orthodox anti-Semitic Christian that hope to whitewash genocidal, apartheid Islamo-fascism. Jihadism has nothing in common with other peaceful faiths. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Myths-of-

          • Anti-idiotarian

            Islam’s texts are saturated with verses of violence and hatred toward those outside the faith. In sharp contrast to the Bible (which generally moves from relatively violent episodes to far more peaceful mandates), the Qur’an travels the exact opposite path (violence is first forbidden, then permitted, then mandatory). The handful of earlier verses that speak of tolerance are overwhelmed (indeed abrogated) by an avalanche of later ones that carry a much different message. While Old Testament verses of blood and guts are generally bound by historical context within the text itself, Qur’anic imperatives to violence usually appear open-ended and subject to personal interpretation.

            By any objective measure, the “Religion of Submission” has been the harshest, bloodiest religion the world has ever known. 15000+ Global, Deadly Islamo-fascist attacks since 9/11 don’t lie. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

          • Paul

            I don't disagree, but to persecute people who ignorantly and blindly follow a religion due to nothing more than cultural norms is unreasonable. Most Muslims are such simply because they were born into a part of the world at a time when this is the most prevelant religion. Few actually practise the religion to the letter.

            I'm trying to challenge the assumption that because someone is a Muslim that they support the actions of Islamic extremists. This is no more true than that the Irish supported the actions of the IRA, or that Germans support the actions of neo-nazis.

            Yes, you can argue that Islam, as a religion, is worse than any other, but Muslims (the overwhelming majority of whom don't practise the violent rhetoric of their texts) are no less worthy than anyone else. That is not the sentiment being portrayed here.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            That's a typical response by Muslim apologists. "Well, no one practices Islam to the letter."
            But, Paul, that's admitting that the letter of Islam is something to be avoided.
            Since your position is they're just little brown stupid ignoramuses who can't be expected to change their faith…

            Funny, lots of Africans changed their faith from animists to Christianity and Islam, so I guess even third-worlders, those lowly people, could change their mind if given the chance.
            But you won't even give them the chance to leave Islam. It's "cultural". And since all culturals must be equivalent, there's no sense in freeing people from oppressive human rights violations. They're just backwards Muslims.
            No one ever said, and you can read every post here, that all Muslims were violent. The point of OP of this thread was to just "double check" that the people with whom Obama would want to side claim membership in a group with a dogma that is oppressive and violent. Whether they're devout enough to actually practice the jihad they're supposed to is between them and their imam.

          • Matthew 23:24

            #3 Remind folks again… what "race" are Muslims?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

            And regarding number three. Just a few inches above this post you state that people should distinguish between a religion and a race.

            Ummm…

  • Chris

    If oblowme is reelected in 2012, expect Megrahi to get a cabinet post. Minister of islamic peace and prosperity or some such $h!t.

    they both disgust me.

  • USMCSniper

    Hikkary Rodman Clinton is the Secretary of State and this had to go through her first and through the DoJ and Attorney General Eric Holder. This is not the first time pardons and releases for terrorists have neem granted with Clinton and Holder involved. When Clinton ran for New York Senator she wanted the Peurto Rican vote so: Eric H. Holder Jr. repeatedly pushed some of his subordinates at the Clinton Justice Department to drop their opposition to a controversial 1999 grant of clemency to 16 members of two violent Puerto Rican nationalist organizations, according to interviews and documents. President Clinton’s decision to commute prison terms caused an uproar at the time. Holder was called before Congress to explain his role but declined to answer numerous questions from angry lawmakers demanding to know why the Justice Department had not sided with the FBI, federal prosecutors and other law enforcement officials, who were vehemently opposed to the grants.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

      No revolutionary too evil to pardon…ever.

  • No Comrade

    I feel completely alienated from so much that is going on these days. Arafat wins a Nobel Prize for PEACE??? Obama wins for doing nothing! A man who kills close to 300 innocent human beings deserves compassion? The Jihad against the western world is called some cockamamie description of man made disasters? The president of the US wants to reward Muslims for all their contributions to what? The Fairness Doctrine is like saying bad is good. Cap and Trade for an unproven science that will definitely be the death toll for America. Redistribution is another word for government sanctioned outright theft. The list is too long to go on. It could be a tome.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Rifleman Rifleman

    I've noticed a few bugs in their comment system, and wouldn't assume the moderator did it. It happens sometimes with posts I'm certain nobody would find objectionable.

  • Kaddafi delenda est

    Thousands of IRA bombing victims in the UK are also being betrayed by corrupt BP lobbyists’ oily deal with Kaddafi.
    =====
    IRA victims killed with Libyan semtex to get £2bn in compensation from Colonel Gaddafi http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article
    =====
    Kaddafi openly admitted responsibility and liability for mass murdering UK and US victims… and crooked corruptocrats slurp up his blood money for BP oil deals like good little dhimmis.

    Just imagine if Obama released Khalid Sheik Mohammed for “humanitarian” reasons (afterall he’ll surely die otherwise) in open exchange for oil deals with the bin Laden family. That’s what we’re essentially witnessing with this sordid al-Megrahi affaire.

    /Kaddafi delenda est

  • Kaddafi delenda est

    MacAskill’s “compassionate” lie was a thin veil for a much larger ‘quid pro quo.’ It was yet another payment on Kaddafi’s terrorist sextortion demands that secured release of his prison raped and tortured EU nurse hostages.
    =====
    FLASHBACK 2007: Qaddafi Wants Money and Lockerbie Attacker for Nurses’ Release http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=75328

    "Muammar Qaddafi has officially stated his conditions for the release of the five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor sentenced to death in Libya, a website of the Libyan opposition claims. Cited by the Bulgarian national radio, the site claims that Qaddafi has sent an official note to the EU country members and the US, requesting compensations for the families of the HIV-infected children and the release of the terrorist from Lockerbie…

    "The UK should help with the release of the Lockerbie bomber, the note also says. He could be released because he has already served his sentence, or he could receive amnesty, or be extradited to Libya, Qaddafi suggests."
    =====
    This bald-faced hostage extortion payoff does not bode well for Iran’s UC-Berkeley student hostages.

    • Kaddafi delenda est

      This wasn’t only an oil-for-terrorist deal (quid pro quo). That oily BP deal also involved Kaddaif’s sextortion payment for releasing his brutally prison-raped EU-nurse hostages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_trial_in_Libya

      Let’s add up some of Kaddafi’s jizya booty for prison raping EU nurses (so far):

      * EU $400 million (includes Bulgaria’s $57M ransom)
      * French nuclear reactor deal (+military hardware)
      * EU free trade (+political normalization)
      * New US Ambassador (+date w/ Condi)
      * Obama handshake (+UN podium for Ramadan)
      * Trillion Euro BP oil deal (brokered by UK politicians)

      *Lockerbie bomber’s release… PRICELESS!

      [Once again, terrorism pays… handsomely]

      /Kaddafi delenda est

      • Kaddafi delenda est

        The Scots and Obama shouldn’t feel alone in being pubicly castrated by Kaddafi. The Swiss had the same experience this year when they paid off Kaddafi to release his Swiss hostages.
        =====
        Merz “acted like a Sarkozy” over Libya http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Archive/Merz_act

        …Switzerland has already transferred a compensation payment into a blocked account for the publication of the police photos of Hannibal Gaddafi.
        =====
        America fought our first overseas war against Tripolitan pirates who used hostage extortion to secure huge annual jizya payments from Western nation treasuries. Kaddafi now has that racket back in business. Are Americans prepared to do anything about it?

        /Kaddafi delenda est

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

          I'm thinking and writing this semester about the fact that Islam and its terror just isn't going to go away on its own. The very same problems that existed in the time before the Crusades are exactly the same problems Jefferson and Washington discovered, and the very same ones we find today. There is no answer but to crush them, drive them back, and make it so wickedly unpleasant to be a Muslim and so free and rewarding not to be a Muslim, that apostasy will have its own t-shirt.

  • BS77

    Why has no politician come out and openly opposed the GLOATING CENTER…the Ground Zero mosque? Where are the remnants of the greatest generation? Who will defy this PC nightmare, this liberal appeasement and submission to evil, this making America into the door mat for the dregs of the world?

  • Kaddafi delenda est

    EU nurse torture ordeals from Human Rights Watch._ _http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005/11/14/libya12013.htm__=====__Bulgarian defendant, Kristiana Valceva, said interrogators used a small machine with cables and a handle that produced electricity. “During the shocks and torture they asked me where the AIDS came from and what is your role,” she told Human Rights Watch. She said that Libyan interrogators subjected her to electric shocks on her breasts and genitals. “My confession was all in Arabic without translation,” she said. “We were ready to sign anything just to stop the torture.”__=====__Read it all. This was the stick that newly “rehabilitated” Kaddafi used to great effect (along with his oil carrots) to castrate the West.____Westerners can backbite each other (Bush lied, Obama lied, Blair lied, MacAskill lied) until we’re blue in the face.____Meanwhile Kaddafi and his terrorist co-conspirators laugh their way to the bank laden with jizya booty.____National will (and the moral courage to exercise it) that united and motivated our post-9/11 actions has been eroded by appeasement Quislings. That is the pox on all our houses of government.

  • Dennis X

    What did the teabaggers and their hero BP know, what was their involed in this release? Drill baby drill, its always been about the oil, miss bush you bet yah.

    • Anti-idiotarian

      Obama is the top recipient of BP PAC and individual money over the past 20 years, according to financial disclosure records.

      Own it, Obama cultist.

  • What?

    And then there was the $400 Million of taxpayer money that Obama "donated" to Gadaffi's son and daughter's "funds" –(he did inform Congress that he intended to do that via the State Dept.-nice of him) just a month after the mass murderer's release was greatly celebrated in Libya — although Obama was "very angry" about that too.

    Encourage the release of the Mass Murderer and then give half billion dollar "gift" to Gadaffi. And no explanation to us — who paid for it all in every way.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

      No, it was $400K to his childrens' "funds," and another 2.5million in "aid". I have yet to see whether the requests for withdrawal were successful. The story is gone from the headlines and hard to find.

  • Donny Contopoulos

    Hey man, check out my blog on grants.. Something everyone should be spreading the word on. It’s important that, grants for new moms are known for moms’ sake.

  • Mathew Jones

    Queen of pop. Cultural icon. Fitness fanatic. Madonna believes in using your own body—dance,gym workouts, <a>fitness gym, outdoor gym, functional training, mind, body, spirituality—to be healthy, fit and yes … hard.

    Around the world and now in Sydney, Australia. We’re taking fitness to another level.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

    Note which ones were deliberate attempts to target and subjugate infidels, and which ones were just mistakes based on no perceived response from the civilian craft.

    I really hate moral relativists.

    It's fine to be outraged by the incident. They aren't even close to equivalent, so take your shiny object and shake it somewhere else.

  • Anti-idiotarian

    Some deluded Leftists still drool over illiterate conspiracy theories– framing former Mossad agent Juval Aziz’s refried nonsense as grounds for yet another specious Megrahi "appeal."

    Sadly, Steven Spielberg (Director of Aziz's "Munich" fiction) actually considered translating Aziz's odious fiction into another Troofy film. He's since back away from the commitment.

    Look folks. The Iranians have plenty of innocent blood on their own hands without Westerners white-washing Kaddafi’s murderous culpability for Black September, Rome/Vienna airport massacres, London embassy shooting, La Belle disco, Pan Am 103, UTA flight 772, PIRA, Abu Nidal, Abu Sayyaf, etc., ad nauseum.

    Kenny MacAskill and his UK co-conspirators must be held accountable for their criminal corruption.

    Billion Euro Q: How many shares of BP does MacAskill own?

    Don’t be a Kaddafi clan apologist your whole life, Jon. Sod off, you wanker.

  • Paul

    You're right, it's difficult to compare the two incidents. The key issue however is in how we treat those responsible. America awarded the captain of the US warship that shot down the passenger aircraft a medal for his tour in the gulf(!). Put the shoe on the other foot, imagine that an Iranian warship had shot down an American civilian aircraft over the atlantic and killed 290 civilians. Would you expect the captain of the warship to be rewarded or court marshalled?

    Surely we must judge ourselves to a higher standard than we judge terrorists.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

    Muslims who are targeting infidels for destruction should not be given medals, although I'm sure they get quite a few attaboys, at least until the Americans catch them.

    American military, who with their best information, believe they have a rogue plane, and shoot it down, provided all the correct procedures were followed, should of course be commended for their actions. Seriously, do you not think they just plain feel bad about what happened? Their actions warranted recognition through chain of command.

  • Paul

    How would you feel if Iranian warships were, at this moment, taking part in maneuvers in Cuban waters, within easy striking distance of every major American city? You would (understandably) be calling for them to be removed by force. What if one of the warships then shot down a civilian aircraft, killing 290 innocent passengers, and simply said "oops". You would demand vengance. What if the warship then returned to Iran and the commander was rewarded for his actions? You would demand that the Iranian people refuse to accept such negligence from their leaders and remove them. What if they didn't? You would (understandably) hate Iran, and Iranians. Welcome to the mind of an Iranian and their view of America.

    Right or wrong, this is simply a true reflection of how many people in the Arab world view America.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

    Feelings are not relevant. Iranians would never make it to Cuba to do maneuvers. That's because we're the US and we would never allow it. If we were like the Iranian regime, I would understand why concerned nations would camp outside our doorstep, looking for one false move.

    But we're not. I don't hate Iran. I don't hate Iranians. I believe they should be free of Islam and free to evolve into people.

    You are probably right about their view. What does that have to do with whether something is justifiable. Feelings? That's what justifies action?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

    Also, they do not hate us for that. They hated us because we are not Muslim. Everything else is gravy. Do you not read Qutb?

  • Paul

    And do you hate them for being Muslim?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

    You must have a comprehension problem. People who think Islam is a danger to humanity and freedom hate Islam. Muslims who cling to Islam and haven't the ability to either break free or question its tenets are culpable and worthy of derision.

    I hate actions. I hate people who do evil. I don't hate Muslims. I pity them, and wish they held deep in the core of their beings the desire to be free and make their own choices and not subscribe to a faith that wants all Jews dead and all women subjugated.

    See the difference?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/winoceros winoceros

    It's dated August 10th, just as stated in this article, where I gleaned this information in the first place. Thanks for encouraging me to find the original report instead of relying the silly old "The Scotsman" reporters. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Medica