Muslim Infidels

Steven Plaut is a native Philadelphian who teaches business finance and economics at the University of Haifa in Israel.  He holds a PhD in economics from Princeton.  He is author of the David Horowitz Freedom Center booklets about the Hamas  and Jewish Enablers of the War against Israel.


I look out the window and stare at the minarets of the Ahmadi mosque. There is a cool evening breeze as the calls to prayer are heard from its two towers, lit up in colors in the evening. The sea spreads below it off to the horizon. The mosque minarets have become something of a symbol of the city, the very first thing that greets the eyes of tourists as they enter town from the main highway.

The Ahmadis just across from my window go about their business, disturbed by no one and disturbing no one. There is a reason for this.

The reason is that this Ahmadi mosque is not in Pakistan. It is in Haifa, Israel. You know, that same Israel that is defamed as a discriminatory apartheid state by the members of the Islamofascist-leftist alliance, that 21st century Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. Of course, the reality is that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that is not an apartheid regime.

The minarets of the Haifa mosque are the most interesting thing one sees from my living room window. But I turn from the window to the television screen. There on the evening news are other Ahmadi mosques. They are filled with blood and flames. Those Ahmadis were not fortunate enough to live under Israeli “apartheid” rule.  They were the victims of Pakistani barbarism and savagery.

On May 28, 2010 a group of Sunni Muslim terrorists attacked two mosques in Lahore, Pakistan, belonging to the Ahmadi sect.  At least 98 people died in the carnage.  The terrorists used bombs and automatic rifles.  The massacres drew attention to a little discussed facet of modern Islamofascism, namely Islamist violence against other Muslims.

The Ahmadis are a heterodox sect, known collectively as the Ahmadiyya, founded in the late 19th century in Pakistan. It is estimated that they have four million followers just in Pakistan, and they claim to have tens of millions more worldwide. They have two million followers just in the African country of Benin.

Ahmadi followers believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908) was sent by Allah as a prophet “to end religious wars, condemn bloodshed and reinstitute morality, justice and peace,” this according to an Ahmadi web site.  The founder of the sect claimed to be a prophet and a sort of Islamic messiah or Mahdi.  The sect even claims that Mohammed foresaw and foretold of the coming of Ahmad.

There is some disagreement even within the Ahmadi movement as to just what Ahmad’s position is in the religion. The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement broke away from the rest of the Ahmadis and tried to move closer to mainstream Islam. It affirmed the traditional Muslim interpretation that there can be no prophet after Muhammad, and instead, viewed Ahmadism as a reform movement within broader Islam.  Curiously, one of the main theological differences between Ahmadis and other Muslims has to do with the role and position of Jesus, who is considered a prophet in Islam, although not of the same stature as Mohammed. Starting in the 1920s, large numbers of Pakistani Ahmadis arrived as missionaries in many countries around the world, trying to win converts.  The movement claims to have followers today in 195 countries.

The first Ahmadi contacts with people living in Ottoman Palestine were made before the end of the nineteenth century. Concentrating their missionary efforts mainly on local Arabs, several converts were made.  The most important was a local clan leader living on Mount Carmel in what is now a neighborhood of Haifa.  He was Abdul Qadir Odeh, the first Arab leader to embrace Ahmadiyyat in what became Israel. In the Haifa neighborhood of Kababir just across the wadi from me today, the Israeli Ahmadans live.

Older Ahmadis can be spotted around town by their Pakistani haberdashery; they wear exactly the same style of hat that Afghan President Hamid Karzai wears.  The “Centre for the Ahmadiyyan Delegation to Countries of the Middle East” is also situated in the village/neighborhood.  I once went to one of its open houses in its mosque, where it was offering free Koran books in different languages to anyone for the asking. Hebrew Korans are easy to find.  But that was the first and only time I ever saw the Koran translated into Yiddish. Ahmadis from Kababir also regularly set up information stands about their community on my campus.

The relations between the Haifa Ahmadis and Jews (and Christians and Moslems and Druse and Bahais) is warm and cordial. As far as I know there has never been a single instance of Haifa Ahmadis participating in anti-Israel terror or sedition. The worst complaint about them that I have heard has to do with their shooting off fireworks at their weddings.

Many mainstream Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims do not consider the Ahmadis to be true Muslims at all. There are many websites that demonize and defame the Ahmadis, run by radical Islamists. A law in Pakistan prohibits Ahmadis from proclaiming themselves Muslims. Anti-Ahmadi violence has broken out regularly in Pakistan, the first time in 1953, shortly after Pakistani independence.

According to one of Ahmadi official web site:

“Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is the leading Islamic organization to categorically reject terrorism in any form. Over a century ago, Ahmad(as) emphatically declared that an aggressive “jihad by the sword” has no place in Islam. In its place, he taught his followers to wage a bloodless, intellectual “jihad of the pen” to defend Islam. To this end, Ahmad(as) penned over 80 books and tens of thousands of letters, delivered hundreds of lectures, and engaged in scores of public debates. His rigorous and rational defenses of Islam unsettled conventional Muslim thinking. As part of its effort to revive Islam, Ahmadiyya Muslim Community continues to spread Ahmad’s(as) teachings of moderation and restraint in the face of bitter opposition from parts of the Muslim world.  Similarly, it is the only Islamic organization to endorse a separation of mosque and state.”

One wonders whether the Ahmadi version of a quietist non-violent Islam is what really has the Islamofascists so upset. Because of the cordial relations between Jews and Ahmadis in Israel, numerous Islamofascist web sites denounce the Ahmadis as Zionist agents.

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/guydewhitney Guy DeWhitney

    I have been talking about this group for quite a while but, even Wafa Sultan does not give them much chance of gaining a solid foothold against traditional Islam.
    The US could be of great help; unfortunately our Congress and White House are part of the traditional Da'wa/Taqqiya machine:

    The Congressional Muslim Staffers Association (CMSA) is run by a board of foreign born Muslims with VERY sectarian backgrounds yet claims to represent ALL Muslims who work for Congress:

    "Any Muslim Congressional employee is considered a CMSA member regardless of their level of participation or the degree that they publicly identify themselves as “Muslim”." (this could be used to claim APOSTATES as amongst those they "represent"!

    This is used to:
    "Represent the social and political concerns and initiatives of the Muslim American community to Congressional Members, staffers, and other Federal officials. "
    http://hereticscrusade.com/series/helping-congres

  • Akber Choudhry

    As a professor, I would expect you to look up Ahmadiyya on research databases – specifically Yohanan Friedmann's 'Prophecy Continuous' — a fellow Israeli professor of yours. For an academic to not do the basic due diligence before writing an attacking piece like this is not easily understandable. And to advocate a marginal messianic cult shows ignorance or callous disregard for Islamic history or civilization — that is, if the author believes in there being an Islamic civilization and entity. Academics letting down their rulers and citizens is the harbinger of decline. Muslims went through it 500 years ago, and the West is going through it now.

    • Hasan

      Akber Choudhry, talking of research may be you should also disclose that you are a former Ahmadiyya who stayed for many decades in this "cult" and benefited from it and now has an axe to grind as you are no longer on the high post that you were at previously in the group.

      • Akber Choudhry

        Sorry, saw this too late, already did below. The 'benefit' I had was working 10+ hours a week voluntarily, mostly on computers, magazines and books, and paying 10% of my income to them. Around 1997, while editing the 5th edition of their children education book, I came across many inconsistencies and cover-ups and questioned them and my concerns were never answered. I left in 2003, on the death of their 4th leader, delaying it out of regard for his ill health for many years and knew me personally. I never held any organizational 'post' in the community — I was always a worker, a speaker, teacher and writer. In those terms, I lost all my thousands of 'fans' after leaving the Ahmadiyya :) One can only know the benefit if one has left a cult.

    • Patricia

      Mr. Choudhry,

      Frankly speaking as far as "disregard for Islamic history or civilization" goes, well, all we have been hearing about your culture is bombs, bloodshed, riots, beheadings, stonings, and planes flying into buildings. As far as whether the writer believes that an Islamic civilization and entity actually exists? Well, I can assure you the world would be a more peaceful and better place if an Islamic civilization did not exist.

      • Khus

        It depends on who you are hearing from. There are a lot of lies and propaganda about Islam as a result it is the most misunderstood religion in the World today. Thanks to the media and do I have to say who controls the media?

        But the reality is Islam is a pure methodology of Worship of one God. Muslims are trying to keep their religion unaltered and pure from any fabrications. Ahmadiyya founder has been found to be a liar by his own teachings. Ahmadis have tried to hijack Islam and change its authenticity. Therefore, if we do not stand up and defend it then who will? Although we firmly believe that God Almighty will protect his true religion. Muslims have lot in common with people of the book (Jews and Christians) They believe in all their prophets and respect them. Whereas the founder of Ahmadiyya movement Mirza Ghulam Ahamad cursed and abused Jesus Christ also. In conclusion Ahmadiyya is a cult and a family run business of its founder.

  • ibn khaldun

    No one "advocated" Ahmadiyyat in the above article, other than advocating their right not to be murdered and to worship as they please. The hysterical response by Akber Choudry actually is the most illuminating thing on this page.

  • Akber Choudhry

    The attacks were barbaric terrorist atrocities that have been roundly condemned in Pakistan, and are part of the instability imposed by a 10-year-old war that the U.S. does not have the will to finish or to let go. Thousands of other peaceful Pakistanis have been killed by terrorists and U.S. drones in this low-intensity war between U.S. and Pakistan.

    For an academic to prop a messianic cult as without doing basic academic research is what was questioned.

    • emanuel appel

      Dear Choudry
      Describing a group and its history is not considered "to prop" in civilized Western thinking.
      Please return to a white school for more seasoning.

      • Peace

        Well if you want to describe it then do it in a fair manner and that would include both sides of the story and not just one sided. Because the article seems to support only one side there is a problem. Ahmadis have been mislead by their organization, especially their missionaries whom I have personally has seen in action are cunning and evil people. They are the ones to be blamed for the plight of this organization.

  • libertarian

    Great article. Most insightful. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have declared Ahmadis to be non-Muslim. They cannot make the Haj trip because of the Saudi ruling. In India, they are Muslim (India has a split civil code, where Muslims can settle civil disputes in a parallel legal system) and could have their Haj trip subsidized by the Government of India.

    A small oversight: the founder, Ahmad, was born and raised in Qadian, India. Today, after the Indo-Pak partition, Qadian is still in India.

    • steven plaut

      Libertarian: thanks for the correction

      For Choudry: I do not "tout" or endorse the theological beliefs of the Ahmadis, nor do I think that non-Moslems have the right to decide who is a Moslem and what theologically Moslems should properly believe. I also do not think Ahmadis should be persecuted.

      • Tsu

        Dear Steven Plaut,
        Muslims themselves are victims of persecution and injustice everywhere. When we study the history of Ahmadiyyat we find that they are behind a lot of problems for Muslims in general and their countries. So if some group decides to take a revenge on them for what damage they have done to them how can we blame the entire Muslims for that. Although I am sure you will agree that Muslims have in general condemned this incident. On the other hand a lot of Muslims are being killed by the unjust wars everyday, but we don't see any reaction from the Ahamdis like what we see when their group members are involved. Also please educate yourself through authentic sources about Islam and the reality of the Ahmadiyya movement. A lot of writers don't know about this movement and they just quote the Ahmadi's which often becomes like repeating the lies of the Ahmadis. Although you have rightly mentioned that non-muslims should not decide on what is Islam and not. The other point which you have correctly reported that Ahmadis themselves are divided on what the status of their founder is and whether he is a prophet or not. But to tell you the truth the founder of Ahmadiyya movement has been proven to be liar by his own teachings by those who know and studied his life.

  • frabul slomn

    lt couldnt be islam if theyre not killing and maiming – its just some flakey sect

    • Tsu

      When it comes to killing look who's history is the worst in killing innocents and what would you say to that if you are an honest person?

  • وأدان

    Akber you are ranting. What is the due diligence supposedly missing to reveal? Specify in what way this article is factually or analytically wrong. For you are coming across as another orthodox Islam-protecting zealot, blaming the US – yawn – and sidestepping the key issue raised here: the ongoing persecution of a sect you and millions of other Muslims deem "heretical". So just because these recent killings have been "roundly condemned" (sources please) does that make them acceptable or understandable because these Muslims are heretics? State your position openly and without brining the US into this. The Muslim on Muslim violence has been going on for years, decades, hundreds of years. I challenge you to condemn these killings on the basis of religious plurality and real tolerance. We're all waiting.

  • Kim Bruce

    Did Ahmadi write his own version of the Koran or do they follow the same book?

    If he was considered the last prophet you would thnk he would have his own guide book.

    • http://kaluss.blogspot.com Asif

      Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of Ahmadiyya, claimed to be the same messiah who is awaited by all Muslims. He brings no new law. He and his followers are obligated to follow the Quran.

      • Khus

        Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has been found to be a liar by his own teachings and all his prophesies failed except the last one where he cursed one of his oponents and said that whoever is a liar shall die of a cholera. Guess what GOD answered his prayer this time and he ( the liar ) died of Cholera ( a dreadful disease indeed ) This is how GOD almighty shows his signs and exposes the liars. But unfortunately a lot of Ahmadis themselves have not studied the life of their founder. They just believe what their misguided missionaries say and as a result they are still trapped in this group.

  • Akber Choudhry

    As to the attacking section in the article that can be said as biased (or baiting) and which was unbecoming an academic such as Mr. Plaut — "They were the victims of Pakistani barbarism and savagery." — out of 160m people, at least 60m wake up every morning and go to work, respect elders and the poor, and wayfarers, and have built a country in 60 years from scratch. Edhi Foundation, one of the largest private charitable networks is like a safety net for the poor and oppressed.

    A legal (not religious) test for determining a Muslim for purposes of the Constitutional stipulation of having a Muslim as Prime Minister and President — was deemed necessary, and legal treatises to the contrary are welcome from the Ahmadiyya. Israel, as the other ideological state of the world also has tests for 'Jewishness' in its citizenship laws and has to preserve the 'Jewish nature of the Israeli state.

    As for persecution of Ahmadis – yes it is there and sadly so — but until this attack has not reached the level of anti-Christian persecution and setting fires in India. I know it first-hand, I escaped from the cult 8 years ago — but lost my family and friends — so harsh is the social boycott from the Ahmadiyya. Theology aside, they are most like Scientology and the same problems that the German and other governments have had with Scientology. They should be free to practice whatever they want, but again should show the same mercy and tolerance of opinion within their ranks that they want from others. There are a group of more than 100 people who keep in touch and who have left this cult like me, and who have been socially ostracized and cut off. Lavan, an academic at McGill, has researched and written about the Ahmadiyya political activities from the 20s to the 50s, and I, having my own show on their TV channel for 3 years, am also privy to some of their rather childish political aspirations.

    Regarding condemnation of the terrorist atrocities against the Ahmadis — please read the numerous articles and editorials in Pakistan's largest English daily — Dawn — and the resolution of the national assembly.

    Wars and 'us and them' fan extremism on both sides. The atrocities of the terrorists are morally unjustifiable, but they choose their victims which in their perverse opinion, provide 'aid and comfort to the enemy' — in the immortal words of George W. Bush. We saw how the war in Vietnam took Laos and Cambodia in its fold and destabilized the region for decades. That is what is happening in Pakistan. Pol Pot's coming to power was not in a vacuum, the Vietnam war had a lot to do with it.

    To imply that things happen in a complete vacuum is implying that a certain people are evil and inferior human beings — in which case their can be no rational debate. There is more that unites us humans than divides us — that is the only viable premise for peace.

    • Asif

      It is not just a case of "legal test for determining a Muslim for purposes of the Constitutional of having a Muslim as Prime Minister and President " it is a case of criminalization of Ahmadis for simply existing in Pakistan while performing rudiments of their faith. I have to say you are being intellectually dishonest here because you cannot possibly be unaware of it. Ahmadis are blatantly persecuted in Pakistan. They can get into trouble under criminal statutes for something as benign as extending a Muslim greeting. With some of the most odious and repulsive discriminatory clauses enshrined in its constitution, Pakistan is the only country in the world which not only persecutes but does it with shameless pride.

      • Khus

        There are a lot of other people being persecuted in many parts of the World for no fault of theirs. Ahmadis are no silent sufferers. Their jamaat and its missionaries are part and parcel of the problem they created for themselves. This is a fact. They are not loyal to Pakistan or any other Muslim country. They always plot against muslims and their countries openly and secretly and in reality they are loyal to nobody. They just play the game everywhere that's all to gain sympathy for their agenda.

    • Qudsia00

      I've been an Ahmadi for about 40 years and I have lived among the Ahmadiyya Community in various parts of the world. I also have some knowledge of its policy making and policy makers. By equating the Ahmadiyya Community with the cult of Scientology Mr. Choudhry, you only prove your ignorance of the community or your false propaganda against it. It's a community that firmly believes in freedom of conscience for everyone, whether it is of believing in a set of beliefs or rejecting a set of beliefs or changing one's belief at any point in life.

      It is also an organization which is established on certain rules and policies and it has the right to take away the membership of someone not following those rules. You compare the community to a cult and expect that your Ahmadi friends and family will not react to it by not talking to you? You show contempt for and call as false those that they love and honor and consider truthful, and you don't expect a change in your relationship? Not keeping a personal relationship with someone who we think is spreading false propaganda and being hateful about those we love and honor is not the same as persecuting a person?

      My sibling may have the legal right to bad mouth our parents, but knowing that the actions of my sibling are wrong and ill willed, it is also my right to never to speak with him/her again. That is not ostracizing; it is showing my respect for those I love and honor. But I will not take away the civic rights of my sibling or harm him/her because of my negative feelings.

      • Khus

        In Ahmadiyyat one will generally find two types of people.:

        (1) Those who do not know what this cult is all about and are blindly following it.

        (2) Those who know that this is a fraud and are still taking part in it.

        So in the end to each his or her own. We pray for guidance to people trapped in the messianic cult of Ahmadiyyat that one day GOD will free them from this bondage.

        Amen.

  • Hasan

    Closer to home;

    "The teachings of the moderate Ahmadiyya sect of Islam have been labeled apostasy by Palestinian Authority clerics, leaving its members open to persecution and even threats of murder. PA leaders have refused to step in, saying the status of the Ahmadiyya community is a matter for the courts to decide."
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/

    • Khus

      Ahmadiyya is not a sect of Islam. Its teachings are irrational and it is basically a cult and a family run business of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad their founder who has been beyond doubt proven to be a liar by his own teachings.

      Ahmadis are trying to fool everybody by using slogans such as 'moderate' 'Love for all hate for none' 'peace' etc. which they never follow and in reality try to hide their fraud.

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ronwagn ronwagn

    Islamists persecute Sufis as well. They persecute the true fruit of Islam. They are in league with evil. Freedom of religion or atheism is a fundamental basis of civilized society. Islamists do not allow it in any nation they dominate. Even moderate Indonesian Muslims are being oppressed by these madmen. Women are treated as chattel. Shariah law is a Trojan Horse, meant to weaken free societies.

  • Hasan

    Regarding condemnation of the terrorist atrocities against the Ahmadis — please read the numerous articles and editorials in Pakistan's largest English daily — Dawn — and the resolution of the national assembly.

    The national assembly who very reluctantly passed this resolution, see news link below, [while Senate refused to pass it despite passing a resolution against Israel -- Pakistanis are apparently less important for Pakistan Senate or is it bigotry?] have no problem with this apartheid law;

    ORDINANCE NO. XX OF 1984 PART II – AMENDMENT OF THE PAKISTAN PENAL CODE (ACT XLV OF 1860) (3) 298C… Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves ‘Ahmadis’ or by any other name), who … invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.

  • Hasan

    NA resolution news

    It initially appeared that the brutal gun attacks on two places of worship, which killed about 90 people and wounded 105 others, would find no mention on the opening day of the lower house’s budget session as had happened in the Senate a bit earlier, for fear of possible ire of hardline Anti-Ahmadi religious groups.

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-

  • Hasan

    Video – Aftermath of Lahore May 28th Attack http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smUAD9X2lBU

  • jac

    Why is the belief in the future non appearance of a human being not redeemed by a belief in Allah, and Muhammed as his messenger so as prevent persecution, unless that is, the puportedly divine is all too much in the image of the immoderate human.

    to the purported finality of fMuhammad's prophethood,

  • Tanstaafl

    The main idea that casual readers should draw from this article is that even when Muslims turn peaceful, they are murdered by other Muslims who consider them apostates or heretics. What does this say about "mainstream" Muslims? That you cannot be a true Muslim unless you embrace the violence endorsed in the Qur'an? That there is no such thing as a "moderate" Muslim?

  • Disabled Veteran

    That there is no such thing as a "moderate" Muslim?

    Nothing else needs to be said……

    • Huma Munir

      Ahmadi Muslims believe in love for all, hatred for none. You are right. If this is not moderate, then it is extreme benevolence and generosity. Thank you for acknowledging.

      Btw, I was being sarcastic.

      • Khus

        No they don't . This is just a lip service taught to them by their jamaat missionaries to fool the rest of the people. I have lived with Ahmadis and I know what they are like. The missionaries are the worst – cunning, revengeful and liars ……..yet they claim to be Godly men 24 hr a day. Now there may be some innocent people trapped in this cult but we pray for them to open their eyes one day and see that this is nothing but a fraud and a family run business of the founder.

  • Khalid

    Well Quran does not endorse any violence. The verses that are about defensive wars is erroneously applied to every situation by extremist Mullahs.

    Ahmadis believe in the Holy Quran and they claim that every verse that is misunderstood to promote violence can be explained.

    For more information on the true meaning of Jihad you can go to these links
    http://www.alislam.org/jihad/docofjihad.html
    http://www.alislam.org/topics/Response_to_the_Negative_P...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sH2lk33UsM&fe

  • Khalid

    The proof is that they practice what they say. When they believe Islam to be religion of peace they prove it by their practice. Islam requires Muslims to be loyal to the country they live in and should obey the law of the land. As the author has mentioned that Ahmadis in Israel are peaceful citizens. The same thing can be noticed everywhere. They are considered peaceful citizens.

    Most of practising Muslims are peaceful but they need to speak. They are a silent majority.

  • Syed Zafar Ahmad

    I am an Ahmadee Muslim closely associated for over five decades with its organisational activities in India, and I can say emphatically that I am still to come across a single instance of a gagging order Chowdhury has been referring to. The community is not only democratic, it does give individual freedom to raise and discuss contentious issues in open forum, subject to the limitation of decency and civility. I therefore tend to believe that the reason of Choudhury's leaving the community is other than his theological differences. While he is at liberty to hold his own views about the truthfulness or otherwise of the claims of our founder, it is certainly improper to justify persecution of the community on the ground of its religious beliefs.

  • Peace

    This article is a proof of how the Ahmadiyya movement has misinformed people of other faiths. The article repeatedly makes reference to the claims of Ahmadiyya. But you have to always see the other side of the story to find the truth. The truth is that a lot of Ahmadiyya claims are baseless and manipulation of the truth. Ahmadiyya is not Islam and it is basically a mafia cult type system which was founded by a man named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in India. This man made several false claims and now the Ahmadiyya leaders and missionaries are telling even bigger lies to hide that. Ahmadiyya founder Mirza Ghulam and teachings must be thoroughly studied and only then one can realize how big of deception this is. As a result this article needs a major rewrite to portray the true picture of Ahmadiyya and what they have done to deserve the trouble they endured.

    • Justin

      Listen bro, seems to me like this IS the other side of story. Get it in your pretty little head that no one is interested in your internal Muslim squabbles, what the rest of the world cares about is human rights and tolerance. You say "Ahmadiyya is not Islam", what the hell does that mean? It is not a Trademark/Copyright issue. Ahmadiyya have as much right to calling themselves 'Muslim' as you have with your majority ass.

      • Khus

        Ahamdiyyat is a cult and a fraud. It has nothing to do with Islam. Its founder has been proven to be a liar by his own teachings. If you cannot understand this then you need to educate yourself.

        • Justin

          Yawn

  • Hassan

    Hey Peace! YOUR side of the story is neatly laid out in your demented Pakistani constitution. As for Ahmadiyya being a mafia style cult, err, isn't it YOU guys who make and defend laws like jail-the-heretic, behead-the-blasphemer, kill-the-bloody-apostate and are eagerly waiting for a messiah who will slaughter all Jews/Christians who do not immediately convert to YOUR version of Islam??? It is the Ahmadiyya who give the rest of the world a glimmer of hope that Muslims one day can come around to living as well-adjusted and peaceful citizens of the world community.

    • Khus

      This is utter non-sense and bad language has been used. Yet another example of Ahamadi style argument. Listen if your founder used ugly language then we don't expect anything better. But stop fooling people, if you have any fear of GOD. Ahmadiyya and peace………this is all rubbish. Islam is a true religion, and an Abrahamic faith just like Christianity and Judaism. Ahmadis distort the truth about Islam and Muslims and present a completely false picture to the World. This is part of their Agenda and I blame their missionaries for this.

      • Hassan

        Bad language, huh, where?!!! Buddy, you are all over the place. See above for a sample of disgusting tit-bits from your Constitution. Also, calling Pakistani law demented is not accusing Islam of anything. Intellectually challenged here, are we? No one is discussing merits of anyone's belief , it is about basic HUMAN RIGHT to practice ones faith, any faith, and calling it anything one wants. Okay? Your ability to understand elementary civilization seems damaged. The rest of the world sniggers at your types. btw. "Agenda"… good one! Now you are well primed to start a rant about Qadiani + Yehudi LABBY working together at the root of world evil … go right ahead.

  • Khus

    You have no sense of what you are talking about. Just spreading pure hatred?
    To such people we say to each his own.

    This has been the case with a lot of Ahmadis these days. Curse, abuse, malign, distort and blame……..nothing new for those who know this cult and its founder. truly you are following the footsteps of your founder and his irrational teachings.

    Please leave Islam alone for it is a pure religion and call your cult whatever name you like. As for human rights GOD has not created this for Ahmadis only. Human rights is for everyone in this World.

    • Syed Zafar Ahmad

      Khus, yours is a very amusing response. Where did you find hatred in Hassan's reply? Do you believe that none has even the basic right to refute unfounded and baseless allegations against a community that did not as much as go for a simple street protest in the wake of dastardly act in the name of Islam? Is this the Islam you have learnt from your 'learned Mullahs'. No one has done greater disservice to the cause of Islam than those masquarading as 'defenders of Islam' and shamelessly killing innocents. And, one thing more: Do we need your certificate or a certificate from the state to get Allah's favour? Please reflect.

  • Khus

    Not only his comments were filled with hatred, but they were false accusations too. Go back and read it again. Have some common sense when you guys argue don't just throw abuses at everyone out there. If you don't, you will loose any sympathy that anyone may have for your illegitimate cause as well.

    • Syed Zafar Ahmad

      Khus, your response seems pure ranting. I say, show me where are those hatred-filled comments. I repeat, show me those hatred-filled comments. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat not only professes hatred for none, but also practices it literally. One would have observed that despite all the cowardly killings of innocents, there were no abuses, no curses, … nothing of the sort. The matter has been simply left to Allah. The tragedy with Khus and his ilk is that their accusations are vague and blurred, and have no basis. I pray to the Almighty to show them the right path.

      • Khus

        You are shockingly blind Sir SZA. As far as your Ahmadiyya jamaat is concerned I don't need your statements. I have first hand experience and it is a pious fraud and a family run business of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. If you dont know the truth about this cult then I think you are ignorant and need to study more. As far as my statements are concerned they are 100% right and stand up for it. Your love for all and hate for none is nothing but lip service.

  • Hassan

    Bohat Khus! I count no less than seven times you call Mirza Sahib a LIAR in your posts, while complaining of being hard done by me. Pakistanis are mind-bogglingly easy to affront, and are forever on a short fuse to go into fits of righteous indignation. Here is an interesting example, if the "wrong" kind of Muslim, i.e. an Ahmadiyya, calls Durood on the Prophet, which is official way of invoking God's blessings on him, according Pakistani Supreme Court, that is Blasphemy – official penalty … ahem … Death. As for calling Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a LIAR, that is Pakistani national sport, ahead in popularity to Cricket even It is almost comical. No state-recognized Muslim can get a National ID, passport, or register to voter until he/she gives an affidavit that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a KAZZAB, which in Urdu is superlative form of liar. Blasphemy against people held sacred by others is national policy. Khus, sir, you are clueless. Take a rest.

    • Khus

      You sound like an arrogant loud mouthed person with very little I.Q.
      You did not read even my full statement and just jumped to conclusion.

      Yes Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the founder and self proclaimed prophet of Ahmadiyyat was a liar and a person of loose character.

      Mirza was his worst enemy and often contradicted his own statement and he has been conclusively proven to be a liar BY HIS OWN TEACHINGS.

      If you cant get that then I think we all need to pray for you so that one day your eyes will open to this reality. Have a nice day.

  • Khus

    Why do people believe MIRZA the founder of Ahmadiyyat was a liar:

    (1) He contradicted his own teachings
    (2) He was a man of bad character (lust for Mohammadi Begum)
    (3) Almost all of his prophesies failed
    (4) Towards the end of his life he had a debate with a muslim scholar and prayed to GOD that whoever is a liar should die of a dreadful disease like Cholera. Guess what happened after that………………………………………………………………………………………………..?????
    MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD died of CHOLERA shortly thereafter.

    This is how GOD deals with the LIARS in matters of faith.

    Now why do some Ahmadis don't get this is because they have never done their own independant study on the life and teaching of their founder MIRZA GHULAM. They just follow the brainwashing done by their missionaries without questioning or doubting what they are saying.

    Really these Ahmadis are ignorant and they have been victims of their own cult.

    • Hassan

      Your ID card is hereby renewed for five years as 100% Halal Pakistani-Government-Sanctioned-Muslim (no less!)

      • Khus

        If that is what I get for standing up for what is right and speaking the truth then so be it. But I do have sympathy for the innocent Ahmadi's who for no fault of theirs are suffering in this misguided and evil cult called AHMADIYYAT.

  • Syed Zafar Ahmad

    Brother Hassan, I think, it is waste of time to argue with a person who lacks basic civility and decency, and who believes in Goebbels’s theory of telling a lie repeatedly till it is considered the truth. The gentleman simply repeats all those baseless stuff from the anti-Ahmadiyya literature, which we have been used to for around a century now, without caring to see for himself where the truth lies or looking into our responses to those oft-repeated allegations. He has obviously taken his Mullah’s version as gospel truth without making his own investigations, or seek Allah’s guidance through Istikhara and prayers. If a person is indeed asleep, you can make him awake, but if he feigns having fallen asleep, you cannot help awake him. … continued

    • Khus

      Not a single word of what I said was a lie. You are the ones who are brainwashed and have shut your eyes and ears to the reality of Mirza Ghulam and his cult. I have done enough study before arriving at this conclusion and not just by listening to some mullahs as you say. You are the ones who have fallen asleep and need to wake up. My job is to open your eyes if you pay any heed. Otherwise it is between you and God almighty on the day of judgement. Remember it was Mirza the grand liar who started this and we are protecting our faith from being corrupted by the Mirzai hijackers.

  • Syed Zafar Ahmad

    In the face of stiff opposition, constant persecution, outright murders, etc., the Community is progressing by leaps and bounds in so much so that during this short period it has established itself in around 180 countries with more than 8000 new mosques, including the first mosque in UK, first mosque in Spain in about 600 years, first Muslim publication & mission house in USA, countless hospitals and schools for the underprivileged and our aid organization ‘Humanity First’ being one of the worlds biggest group of its kind. Can all these be possible without the favour from Allah (swt)? My only comment to his insinuation would be to sincerely pray with an unbiased mind and seek Allah’s guidance, and I am sure he would find the truth.

    • Khus

      keep boasting and exaggerating your claims. For this is how your jamaat operates.

      When we say Islam is growing, you say numbers dont count. When you say Ahmadiyyat is growing then somehow that is a sign of truth.

      When we say muslims are being slaughtered every day in these unjust wars you say it is their deeds. When you say Ahmadis are being pesecuted then it is once again a sign of truth.

      When innocent people die in man made and natural disaster your jamaat claims that it is due to not believing in the MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD. When your jamaat members die you say that it is outright murders, etc.

      Where do you want me to stop. Every thing that your jamaat does and says is shady business and all it is after is money and politics. We know what your jamaat is like. We know what your murabbis are like. We definitely know what MIRZA GHULAM was like. You can fool some people but not everyone.

      Beaware of that and before you accuse others look at your jamaat closely and you will find that word to word what I said is nothing but the truth.

      I pray that GOD almighty protect me from this evil cult and its evil missionaries and may GOD protect all humanity from this evil mafia cult and its pious fraud in the name of ISLAM.

  • Mobeen

    Everybody has the right to select his/her religion. Religion cannot be enforced. Furthermore, you ( or even the national assembly ) cannot define what Ahmadis believe or do not believe. It is they who must be given right to tell what they belive or do not believe. Today teh Pakistanis are complaining about the blasphemy of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. But the posts here by some Pakistanis shows how they respect the religious personalities of other religions ( whom they do not consider Muslims ). Believe me this is not Islam. This is also not Christianity or Hinduism . No religion teaches to spread hatred.

    • SKT

      To reply to you in simple and plain truth, the best way is to quote your own so called prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement) who said in one of his own writings that …..

      "All those who do not believe in me as a prophet and call me a liar are children of prostitutes………….."

      Now I ask you, what kind of religious head this person was to use such disgraceful language?

      This is nothing, his whole life was spent in cursing, abusing and calling bad names to people who opposed him. He did not even spare Jesus and his mother Mary (pbut)

      Are you aware of these facts or not?

      • Asif

        SKT,

        Actually he never said what is alleged, he called some of them "Children of the Rebellious" if you take it literally, or simply "rebellious" in idiomatic Arabic. His opponents like to translate it to "children of prostitutes" to inflame public opinion.

        His strong critique of Jesus was never directed at Jesus-the-Prophet of Quran, but was directed at Jesus-the-Son-of-God of the New Testament. In those days Christian priest had created quite an industry out of abusing Prophet Muhammad and his wives. To shut them up, Hazrat Mirza Sahib adopted this ingenious device. He said, look, here is what the New Testament says about "your" Jesus, let us take it at face value and examine it. He showed that NT presents a rather unflattering image of the 'Son' of God. It was tactical device Hazrat Mirza Sahib used with great success in shutting the mouths of abusive Christian clerics. That's all there is to it. Rest is maulvi mischief, and you fell for it.

        Jesus' conduct as presented in the Quran is quite above reproach. Morever, Mirza Sahib's entire claim was that he has come in the image of Jesus, how could he abuse someone in whose perfect image he claims to be himself?

        Regards

        • Saba

          No Sir, we disagree with your interpretations. Because you are one of the followers of MIRZA you are trying to defend him by changing the meanings of his writings. But this man is not worth defending. He has proven himself beyond doubt that he was a liar, a fraud and a hateful person. It is very very clear. There is no mischief by the maulvis. The whole mischief lies with the MIRZA and his nonsensical writings. In the end GOD almighty gave him the punishment he deserved. You have fallen into the trap of MIRZA and his misleading cult for which you need to study and open your eyes.

          • Asif

            err… short on reasoning and long on vitriol… not a good strategy when debating religion.

  • freeisraelnow

    Just another group, victims of Arab-Islamic apartheid in Arab-Palestine, just as 1) Jews, [barred from living under Arab rule and the legal-prohibition of selling land to a Jew, punishable by death] 2) Christians [persecuted] and 3) stigmatized grandchildren of black slaves who live in Arab-Palestine [Gaza].