Jesus of Nazareth vs. Jesus of Neverland


Critics of Islam tend to avoid the main question about Islam in favor of secondary questions. The main question is, “Did Muhammad actually receive a revelation from God?” The secondary questions are: “Is Islam a religion of peace?” “Is Islam compatible with modern values?” “Are women treated fairly under Sharia law?” And so on. These are useful questions to ask if you are trying to wake up your fellow citizens to the utterly alien nature of Islam, but they won’t carry much weight with a believing Muslim. Warlike religion? Incompatible with modern values? So what? If that’s the way God wants it, who are we to question his ways?

That’s why the main question needs to be raised. Did God deliver a message to Muhammad, or did Muhammad make it up? It’s a good bet that most Americans believe the latter but are too polite or too prudent to say so. We keep our thoughts on the matter to ourselves, not just out of fear of offending Muslims, but also because the cult of cultural relativism requires us to give lip service to the proposition that all religions are equally valid. Nevertheless, the question about the authenticity of Muhammad’s claim is still the heart of the matter. As long as Muslims believe that Muhammad received his marching orders from God, the threat of Islamic jihad will continue to grow. But take that away and you take away the rationale for Islam’s war against the world.

So it makes sense to lay out the case that Muhammad’s claims are highly improbable. One way to do this is to apply to Islam the same tests of critical reason and historical evidence that we apply to the Christian revelation. Over the centuries, both Christian critics and Christian scholars have subjected the Gospel revelations to a rigorous examination. While this had the effect of shaking up some people’s faith, it also had the effect of strengthening the rational/factual case for Christianity. But when this method of inquiry is applied to the Islamic revelation things fall apart.

For example, take the depiction of Jesus in the Koran and compare it to the depiction of Jesus in the Gospels. Since they flatly contradict each other on essential matters, normal curiosity invites the comparison. Which is the real Jesus? Or better, which of the two accounts seems to describe an actual historical figure?

Jesus is considered a great prophet by Muslims, but one has to wonder why, seeing as he has almost nothing to do or say in the pages of the Koran. He only speaks on six or seven occasions and then, very briefly, and primarily to deny that he ever claimed to be God. But then, the whole point of introducing Jesus into the Koran is to discredit the Christian claim that he is divine—a claim that, if true, invalidates Muhammad’s entire mission. Thus, whenever Jesus is mentioned in the Koran, it’s almost always for the purpose of whittling him down in size. For example, “He was but a mortal whom we favoured and made an example to the Israelites.” (43: 60).

The Jesus of the Koran appears mainly in the role of a counter to the Jesus of the Gospels, but “appears” is really too strong a word. This Jesus doesn’t attend weddings, or go fishing with his disciples, or gather children around him. He has practically no human interactions, and what he has to say is formulaic and repetitive. He is more like a disembodied voice than a person. And, to put it bluntly, he lacks personality. The Jesus of the New Testament is a recognizable human being; the Jesus of the Koran is more like a phantom. When did he carry out his ministry? There’s not a hint. Where did he live? Again, there’s no indication. Where was he born? Under a palm tree. That’s about as specific as it gets in the Koran. Next to the unanswered questions about the Jesus of the Koran, President Obama’s problems over establishing his birthplace seem minor by comparison. In short, Muhammad’s Jesus is a nebulous figure. He seems to exist neither in time nor space. On the one hand you have Jesus of Nazareth, and on the other, someone who can best be described as Jesus of Neverland.

One thing you find in the Gospels which you don’t find in the Koran is a solid geographical and historical context. If the story of Christ was set in some mythical location, long before the age of recorded history, it would be easier to pass it off as…well, a myth. But the story takes place not in some vague neverland but in places that can still be visited today—Bethlehem, Nazareth, Jerusalem. Christ doesn’t just go to some indeterminate wedding feast, he goes to the wedding feast at Cana; in his parable about the good Samaritan, he mentions a specific road, the one going from Jerusalem to Jericho. He converses with the Samaritan woman at Jacob’s well in the town of Sychar. He cures one man at the pool of Siloam, and another at the pool with five porticos. Sidon Tyre, Capernaum, the Sea of Galilee, the Jordan River, the Mount of Olives, the Praetorium, Herod’s court, Golgotha—there is a specificity and facticity that you won’t find in mythology.

…Or in the Koran. Take, for example, the differing accounts of the crucifixion. Here is what the Koran has to say: “They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (4:157). Well, that’s an interesting take on the crucifixion. Tell us more. Dan Brown has a similar theory about the crucifixion but at least he concocts a story to support it. But inquiring minds who hope to gain some further insight in the Koran will be disappointed. “They did not kill him…but they thought they did?” Why did they think that? And who were “they”? Answer: Muhammad didn’t seem to know who “they” were. Or, if he did know, he didn’t want his followers to know that there existed an entirely different and far more detailed story of the life of Christ than the one he presents. In the Koran account there are no chief priests, no Sadducees, no crowds, no Romans, no Pilate, no Herod, no Peter, James, and John, no Golgotha, no Garden of Gethsemane, no upper room, no Jerusalem, no Nazareth, no Galilee, no preaching in the temple, no sermon on the mount, no calming of the tempest, no last supper, no trial before the Sanhedrin. For that matter, there’s no historical context, no geography, no kind of setting at all. Someone once said of Los Angeles that “there’s no there there.” That’s the feeling you get when you encounter Jesus in the Koran.

The Jesus of the Koran really does exist in a neverland. Set against the Gospel story with all its vivid detail and close attention to persons and events, the Koranic account is vague and vapid in the extreme. And amazingly brief. If you omit the repetitions, the whole of what the Koran has to say about Jesus can be fit on about two or three pages of Bible text. And of that, about half is devoted to denying that he was God’s son.

You don’t have to be a Christian to see that the New Testament looks much more like a historical document than the Koran. It’s curious when you think about it. With all of his audacious claims to be equal with God, the Jesus of the Gospels is far more believable than the Jesus of the Koran. Not only is it difficult to believe in the few claims that are made for Muhammad’s Jesus, it’s difficult to believe in his existence. There’s just no convincing detail.

Which is more likely the true account of Jesus? On the one hand, you have the Koran’s sketchy version; on the other you have a highly detailed narrative with numerous references to historical facts and geographical locations. Which is more believable? An account composed in Arabia some six hundred years after the life of Jesus, or one composed by his contemporaries with the help of numerous witnesses who were on the spot?

Whatever you may think of the claims of Christ, it’s hard not to believe in his existence. As Dinesh D’Souza puts it in What’s So Great about Christianity, “Do you believe in the existence of Socrates? Alexander the Great? Julius Caesar? If historicity is established by written records in multiple copies that date originally from near contemporaneous sources, there is far more proof for Christ’s existence than for any of theirs.” Historical reliability? F.E. Peters in his book Harvest of Hellinism writes that “the works that make up the New Testament were the most frequently copied and widely circulated books of antiquity.” What does that mean? It means that the New Testament survives in some 5,656 partial and complete manuscripts that were copied by hand. And that’s in Greek alone. If you add in the Latin-vulgate and other early versions, there are more than 25,000 manuscript copies of the New Testament in existence. How does that compare with other early histories? Well, there are seven copies of Pliny the younger’s Natural History, twenty copies of the Annals of Tacitus, and ten copies of Caesar’s Gallic Wars. Score: Christianity, 25,000, Caesar, 10. When you render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s in manuscript terms, it doesn’t seem to amount to much.

It’s a little more difficult to check up on the authenticity of the other Jesus, however, since there is no record of anyone in the ancient world declaring himself not to be the Son of God, while simultaneously heralding the coming of a prophet named “Muhammad.” Muslim apologists insist that there is an original, long-lost version of the Gospel which corroborates the account of Jesus that appears in the Koran. Christians, they say, tampered with the original, and manufactured a corrupted version which turned Jesus into God, and left Muhammad out of the story—in effect, the Muslim equivalent of the Da Vinci Code theory. But it’s a general rule of scholarship that you have to work with the records you have, not the hypothetical ones. And in the record we have—the Koran—Jesus seems more like a mythological person than a real one. Subjecting him to the historical/critical method of inquiry would be akin to subjecting Perseus or Achilles to the historical/critical method.

In the Koran, Jesus’ longest monologue is delivered from the cradle when he is only a few days old. In view of the air of unreality surrounding him, it’s worth asking again why he is in the Koran at all, or why he is accorded the status of a great prophet. The answer is that in claiming him as a Muslim prophet, Muhammad is giving Jesus a demotion, not a promotion. John the Baptist said of Jesus, “He must increase, but I must decrease.” Muhammad preferred it the other way around. For him to increase, it was necessary that Jesus decrease.

So, although Jesus is supposed to be a great prophet, he does not really come across that way in the Koran. He comes across more like a shadowy government witness at a show trial who has been given some statements to memorize. At one point he is actually interrogated by God:

Then God will say: “Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: ‘Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?’”

“Glory be to You,” he will answer, “I could never have claimed what I have no right to. If I had ever said so, You would have surely known it…I told them only what you bade me.” (5:116-117)

Well, that settles it, then. You see, he never said it. Admits it himself.

Muhammad seems to have realized early on that if Christ is who Christians say he is—the Son of God and the fulfillment of all prophecy—then there is no need for another prophet and another revelation. In one sense, Muhammad’s handing of the Jesus problem is very clever: keep him in the narrative but demote him; and use him to rebut the Christians’ central beliefs. In another sense it was not so clever, because the stage-managed Jesus Muhammad presents is almost totally lacking in substance, and is clearly meant to be nothing more than a prop to the Prophet’s own claims. Christian scholars and Christian critics often talk about the search for the “historical Jesus.” Here’s a time-saving hint: don’t bother looking for him in the Koran.

William Kilpatrick’s articles have appeared in FrontPage Magazine, First Things, Catholic World Report, National Catholic Register, Jihad Watch, World, and Investor’s Business Daily.

  • Malcolm

    The Koran also refers to Jesus as a "word" and a "parable", but there is no indication that Muhammad had any idea what these signified. It seems clear that Muhammad's early interactions with Christians and Jews – albeit unlettered ones – left him with a profound respect for Jesus (and, for that matter, Moses, David, etc), without really knowing much about him – except that his followers were overreaching themselves by calling him divine.

    • Asma

      well you are only proving that the Quran is a true revelation by saying that prophet Muhammad PBUH did not know about Moses,David or Jesus and yet the Quran teaches him and all mankind through him about these great prophets. Prophet Muhammad was an ummi,meaning thereby that he could not read or write and didnot have any formal education.He was known to be a person who never told lies and who never broke any promises and was one hundred percent honest.He used to go to a cave called Hira for meditation and when the angel Gibrael appeared to him with relevation and said to him read, he replied that he did not khow how to read after which the angel crushed him to his chest and repeated the request.This happened a couple of times after which the prophet started repeating the first verse of the rvelation which says,"read in the name of allah"

      • Clay Cole

        Well Muhammad lied about Jesus. The followers of Christ that heard Him speak in person were killed for preaching that he was the Son of God. Men do not die for what they know to be a lie.

        Muhammad, therefore, can not be a prophet. He is either a crazy man or a liar.

      • jonmc

        Given how badly wrong Mohammed was about the Judaic Prophets, it is more a case of bad remembering of what the Jewish Rabbis and Christian Monks told him. (There is extensive info on them in the Sunnah.)
        As for mohammed being "ummi". This is "unlettered" rather than illiterate. Would Khadijah have appointed an illiterate to manage her business affairs for her?

        "He was known to be a person who never told lies and who never broke any promises and was one hundred percent honest."
        Clearly you have never read the Ahadith and/or Sunnah.

        "first verse of the rvelation which says,"read in the name of allah"
        Better is "recite in the name…"

  • watchful

    Muhammad was a very jealous man and he wanted for himself what the Jews and Christians had. I don't know why we, as a Judeo-/christian nation are not our in the street with placards that read "Hamas is guilty of child abuse – teaching hate to children," or "Muhammad was a liar," or "72 virgins, what a joke!" They (Muslims) get out there with their signs and flag burnings and hateful chantings. We need to force them to drink the water. Our liberal media will probably not think it's newsworthy since only leftist propaganda is fit to report. It will probably start a war. Oh, wait, never mind. We already have one of those and we didn't even have to instigate it. But then again, I say, hey if they want a war, then lets give them one they will never forget.

    • Asma

      prophet Muhammad PBUH was not a jealous man at all. He was truthful , kind and generous. he was humble and led a simple life.he taught us to love all mankind . He is the most revered person on this earth and its because of his teachings that I am not angry at what you have written. There is no truth in any of your proposed comments for street play cards and you know it only too well. The Palestinians do not want a war but they have to defend their rights to their homeland. Surely Israel is loosing its legitimacy even in the eyes of non zionist jewish people what to speak of over two billion Muslims of this world.

      • Clay Cole

        I really want to know what history you read. You believe fiction. The so called "Palestinians" never exsited till after Israel defeated Jordon in 1967. Have you ever wondered why the Jordanians don't want that land back?

        The "Palestinian" people are fictious. These poor people are just a pawn used by Muslims that hate the Jews and wish them dead.

        If the Musliums in the middle east put down their weapons there would be peace. If the Jews put down their weapons there would be a lot of dead Jews.

        • Asma

          I am a student of history and do not make false claims. Tell me who lived in Ramalla,Hebron,and jerrico in twenties and thirties before the jews came and landed there in hundreds and thousands from Germany,Polland , Austria and,checkoslavia. Jordan does not want this land because its not their land.
          Jews have lived in all the Muslim countries without coming to harm . They were harmed in Europe and not in Muslim countries before the twentieth century.

          • Tired,readyforbattle

            Of what history do you study ?, do you use all data available ? How far back do you go ? 100yrs,200yrs, 1000yrs, 300yrs, 8000yrs, 15,000yrs, 40,000yrs ? Is all the data you use , actual or questionable . Do you use DNA haplogroup ? Have you only used Islamic texts ?

            Please inform us !

          • Asma

            You have not answered my question?

          • Tiredreadyforbattle

            If you are asking me who lived in those towns, I wouldn't know. I would expect a mix of many people. Who lived in the nearby towns ? Perhaps you could tell me who was there about 35,000yrs ago ?

          • Asma

            I have no intention of going around the Mulberry bush. If you are saying that the Jewish people lived in Palestine 2500 years ago ,may be they did. At the same time the Red Indians lived in America,the Aborigines lived in Australia,the Maouris in Kiwi land and Inuits in Canada.Any one with a grain of fairness about him will find it odd that the president,the prime minister,the foreign minister and most of the cabinet members of the Zionist entity were born outside of the country. Time caught up with South Africa in the end and it will catch up with Israel also.

          • Tired,readyforbattle

            Thank you for showing your desires and biases surpass logic

          • Clay Cole

            To tell you the truth it was mainly Christians and Jews ruled by the British who lived in those citys at the time you mention. Muslims were the lease repersented group. Though they lived there unmolsted. In resent years the Palistian Authority have been stealing the property of Christians and Jews who live there. You could say that eithinic cleansing has been going on.

            The Jews have been very poor treated in countries controlled by Musliums for centuries. Both Christians and Jews have been and are now second class citizens. I don't know where you live, but if it is in a western country could you imagine how you would be treated if Christians treated you like they are treated in the middle east. You would not be allow to evanglize, build a mosque or own a quran.

          • Asma

            concentrate on my question let me simplify it for you.What percentage of Palestine or Israel as you may like to call it was Jewish in 1914? Why most Jewish people have eastern European names I wonder?

          • Tired,readyforbattle

            Is this an affirmative action question ?

          • Clay Cole

            You do know that Israel was very sparsly populated in 1914. You need to learn real history. Not the made up stuff the Muslium schoolars have come up with for the last century.

          • MixMike

            Its important to note that Israel does owe a lot of its origins to European migration. That said, the Europeans were not colonizers, they legally purchased VACANT and tenant-free land to build their state.

            When Israel was being partition in 1948 there were roughly 600,000 Jews to the 1.2 million Arabs. The partition gave the Jews a country in the Jewish majority areas (which to my first point were legally purchased vacant and tenant-free land). Of course, the Arabs rejected this and chose war and xenophobia over peace.

          • Asma

            I don't know where you live,but would you allow Arabs to buy vacant and tenant- free land where you live and then want a country of their own in that part? They might have bought some of this land,but the Palestinians living in refugee camps didn't sell their land to end up in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria.

          • myx0mop

            Why don't you answer this?

            How many Jews have the arabs murdered in Hebron in 1929?

            When did "palestinians" actually have a state called Palestine?

            When did Arabs actually rule Palestine?

            Also, "student of hysteria", Arabs come from the Arabian Peninsula. The rest of so called "arab lands" are Occupied Territories.

          • Asma

            see my reply to tiredreadyforbattle

          • myx0mop

            You have no reply. Only your koran-infested lies.

            Islam teaches hatred, lying, murder and land theft. That pretty much summarizes the basis of your opinions.

          • MixMike

            Ramallah in the 1920's only had a few thousand residents, anywhere from 3,000 – 5,000, the majority of which were CHRISTIANS. After 1948 the Christian population started to dwindle and was only about one half of the population. Christians still make up roughly 25% of the population.

            Jericho has similar story with only a few thousand residents, roughly 3,000, in the 1920's. There are sparse statistics from this time but most information suggests a Christian majority there too.

            The only town you mentioned that may have had a Muslim majority is Hebron.

            This may not have been taught to you, but Jerusalem always had a Jewish majority, even stretching back to the 19th century.

          • Clay Cole

            Don't you just hate when facts get in the way of a good lie.

      • johnnywood

        ASMA, You cannot prove a single word of what you just wrote. You are simply repeating the same propaganda over and over again. You have no proof of what you say!

        • Asma

          I have not repeated a single argument twice. I have not been rude to any one of you.I have merely explained my point of view which is the right way to defend my way of thinking,but how have you treated me?
          By calling my arguments"Quran Infested lies"
          By calling me a student of hysteria
          some one in another post said that he would like to do brain surgery on me with a screwdriver.
          Another one is asking my scholarly credentials.
          you have been associating all kinds of wicked and evil behaviour with the blessed prophet Muhammad PBUH
          Its your right to believe or not believe in the Blessed prophet PBUH, but surely to insult him is not justified.
          Freedom of speech is not the same as hate speech.
          However I have done my duty which is to show you the true face of Islam.
          may Allah bless you with true knowledge and may Allah give me fortitude and patience.

          • Tired,readyforbattle

            Thank you for your patience and diligence. Your core intent seems to be friendly, but the information and statements you provide , basicly don't cut the mustard, so to speak. You consider our resistance "hateful" , we consider your adamance and use of extremely bias and false data, insulting. We would like to just live and let live, but that doesn't seem to be your intent.

            I guess we'll meet on the battle field…… see you soon

          • Clay Cole

            I'm sorry you have not shown the true face of Islam. I learned when I fought in the gulf that the Jahist were the most merciless men in the world when they had the upper hand. They were graveling cowards when I had the upper hand. It really turned my stomach when they kissed by boots begging for mercy. I didn't need that to treat prisoners well.

          • myx0mop

            Asma, you are NOT showing the True Face of Islam. Your co-religionists who murder and terrorize the non-Muslims around the world do.

            You are just trying to bullshit your way out by trying to assume the holier-than-thou posture and, while the content of your messages is based on the same old islamic supremacism.

            There is one set of rails for the Islamic train – turn Dar Al Harb into Dar Al Islam through Jihad. Your jihad is veiled in taqiya. The others spill blood, but your goal is the same, Asma.

          • Tired,readyforbattle

            Asma you seem to be a smart strong woman, don't let your strengths be your weakness. Please don't be "blinded" by the deception of your information suppliers, we really don't want good people to take a hit.

      • MixMike

        "Jews have lived in all the Muslim countries without coming to harm."

        Incorrect, Jews lived in dhimmi status and were still subject to embarrasing taxes and no rights under sharia law. As a historian of Islam I am sure you can recall that it was Muhammad who expelled and killed the Jewish tribes of Medina.

        In the 8th century in Morocco Jewish communities were decimated and destroyed by Muslim rulers.

        In the 11th century in Spain 4,000 Jews were murdered in ONE DAY in the Grenada Massacre.

        In the 18th century hundreds of Jews were murdered in Libya by Ali Burzi Pasha.

        Pogroms against Jews were widespread across the Islamic world in the Middle East and North Africa in the 19th century.

        Need I really go on?

        • Clay Cole

          More facts. How could you?

        • Asma

          I don't accept these figures and even if I accept these figures how does this compare with what happened to the Jews in the Christian lands. of course all deaths of Jews, Christians and Muslims are condemnable.To put things in perspective more Muslims have been killed in Afghanistan by the united States in 2009 alone.

      • MixMike

        "The Palestinians do not want a war but they have to defend their rights to their homeland."

        If the Palestinians don't want war then how come the Hamas charter calls for the eradication of ALL Jews, not just those in Israel? How come Hamas wants to drink the blood of Jews?
        http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas_suicide.asx

        I am no Islamic scholar, but that is probably not Halal or Kosher.

        • Clay Cole

          A smart person will take Hamas at their word.

    • Guest

      That's supposed to be 72 Virginians

  • stop the hate

    I think the best word to describe this author is either jeolousy or envy.

    He looks at the Quran from the point of view tha it should give historic account of things. The Quran wasn't revelead so that it could be one history book amongst many, but is a book with set of guidance on how many should live his life. When you look at it from this perspective the whole article breaks down and becomes intellectual rabble.

    It is admitted fact even by Christians that the Gospels were written down by men after Jesus, at least the Muslims have a better claim, that the Whole Quran is spoken by God. Anyway Jeolousy blinds so I don't really expect the opposition to understand. LOL.

    • sflbib

      "…Muslims have a better claim, that the Whole Quran is spoken by God."

      So how did it get into written form?

      • Ez4moi

        I've read that a Jewish rabbi who converted to Christianity and then to Islam put Muhammad's "words from Allah" down on paper. Later, he became disillusioned with Islam and went back to Christianity. As Muhammad was illiterate among his other achievements in life, this accounts for what Muslims describe as the poetic quality of the Koran. Muhammad was many things. A prophet of God was not one of them.

    • Clay Cole

      The Bible was written by men who received revelation from God. Same claim.

      • johnnywood

        The men who wrote down the words of the Bible were moved along by the SPIRIT of GOD.2Pet.1:19-21.Beside that there are as indicated in the article, both historical and geographical events and locations that can be easily verified.

    • Liny

      Have you ever read the Bible? I doubt very much that you have because it is also a guidebook on how we are to live our lives and most important, it is the inspired Word of God transcribed to men. How else was it supposed to be written? Muhammad is dead. Our God still lives!

      • Asma

        Muslims believe that the last prophet PBUH is dead, and that the prophet Jesus is still alive and has not faced death.He will come to this earth some forty days before the doomsday and spend this time preaching Islam.He will then face his death.

        • Clay Cole

          Where is Jesus? In the well with the 13th emum.

          • Asma

            In heavens

          • Pat

            Yes, Jesus the Messiah (God's Annointed One) is in Heaven, sitting at the right Hand of the Father (Mark 16:19), as He is God and He is coming back to judge those who have not bowed the knee to Him, including those who dismiss Him as God.

        • johnnywood

          I would not bet on that.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/RogueWave24 RogueWave24

      Jealousy has nothing to do with the author's analysis. You're projecting. The Muslims have a better claim that the Qur'an was spoken by God? I know that if the Qur'an came from God, the prose would have been much, much more interesting. The first few chapters, especially, "The Cow," and "Battle Gains" are full of jealousy for the Christians and Jews. These chapters are hateful and poorly written. The rest of the Qur'an is boring, boring, boring…The repetition is incredibly monotonous. I don't know how the book lasted…oh, yeah, I know how it lasted – by the sword – "believe or die!"

    • myx0mop

      Here's some typical "guidance" from the Quran:

      "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

      I'd say… Islam has to go. What do you say, O Abdullah? Should the Israelis let the other "peace flotilla" in, or should they just sink the followers of the above guidance? .. Rhetorical question, of course.

    • Iqy

      The Quran does not discuss the birth, residence, storyline of Muhammad (pbuh) either. It is not a story book with a gospel-like narrative, rather it gives the key messages and morals from the stories of the prophets. The Quran even mentions the name of Jesus (pbuh) more than the name of Muhammad (pbuh).
      Regarding the writing of the Quran, this was done by Arab Scribes during the time of the Prophet, who would recite it to them from memory.

      • Asma

        Dear Iqy
        I am glad that you wrote this note. Amongst all the holy prophets,history has only preserved the holy prophet Muhammad's(PBUH) life and words. So his life and all his words and actions are documented and open to human scrutiny.
        This one man changed the face of the earth and brought about the belief in one God, all prophets and all holy books.He promoted humanity,kindness, rights to women and children,care to parents,the sick and infirm,strong moral values,all the good deeds.I quote Mohammad Ali Jinnah's famous words, "anything which is good in this world is Islam."
        The Quran has in essence the following messages :-
        !) The basic belief,(Emaan /faith) which ascertains oneness of God, and belief in all the prophets and the last prophet hood of the blessed prophet Muhammad PBUH and belief in the day of resurrection.
        2) It asks man to ponder on nature and ways of nature to find God and strengthen his belief in him.It has beautiful passages on the earth ,the moon,the sun,the rain,the living things and nature and psyche of man.
        3)It asks man to learn lessons from history of mankind and previous civilizations.
        4)It dictates to us a code of conduct which is based on truthfulness,piety and kindness and which prohibits us alcohol,pork,gambling, adultery,murder,money earned through illegal means.
        5)It gives laws covering issues like marriage,divorce,trade and transactions,death and inheritance etc
        6)It explains to us the five tenants of Islam, the faith,the five time offering of prayers,the keeping of fasts in the month of Ramadan,giving alms and the Haj or the pilgrimage to Mecca.

        • Constance

          You forgot to mention that he slayed non-Muslims with his own sword and killed the father and husband of one of his wives by beheading. He "raped" 9 year – wife or not that was too young – especially as he had other wives. He and his followers conducted raids and collected booty. He was like Saddam Hussein, he had killed those (a woman sleeping with her children) who said things against him in words and poems. Islam is NOT a religion of Peace. You neglected to tell parts of the Quran that said to kill the Jews and non-believers. I could say more, but you must be VERY ignorant.

          • Asma

            I had wanted to stop this conversation,but you express such ignorance that I am forced to answer in the hope that you have some fairness about you.
            I cant answer you on the hurtful remarks because they are not facts,but mere insults,but if you will ,just try to figure out why :-
            1) There are no indigenous Muslims in Spain who ruled Spain for centuries and comprised of over 30% of population at the time of reconquest by the Christians.
            2)How come Lebanon to this day is 40% Christian despite being under Muslim rule for more than a 1000 years.
            3)Coptic Christians make up 10% of Egypt although Egypt has been a Muslim majority country since the seventh century AD.
            4)Remind me why the brave Dutch soldiers working for UN evacuated UN safe heaven in Bosnia letting Christian Serbs massacre 13000 Muslims in 1995.
            5)The island of Cyprus came under Muslim occupation in the sixth century and remained so until 1919.How come two third of its population is still Christian
            6)Do you know that the Greek Orthodox Pope is based in Istanbul(Turkey)which is 97% Muslim.
            7)Nineteen Muslim terrorists caused large scale death and destruction in America and we all condemn it.What are 160000 good American Christian soldiers doing in Iraq?And the same goes for Afghanistan.
            8)Was Hitler a Muslim?
            9)Was the genocide of Red Indians from North America carried out by Muslims?
            10) Pope Gregory is said to have had 8 mistresses and 35 illegitimate Children. I hope this is not true and I hope this child abuse Roman Catholic Church is not true either.
            Apply your mind to the above ,unless you are happy to blunder on and insult other religions.

          • Pat

            1. There were many Muslims in Spain who applied themselves to genocide (Cordoba).
            2. Lebanon was predominantly Christian, and is not an Islamic State. Muslims are overrunning it by the sword, as dictated Allah (9:5). Your premise is incorrect.
            3. There were more Christians in Egypt then, than there are today. They, too, are currently being slaughtered by Muslims.
            4. Again, Muslims tried to gain control of the State, by the sword. Christians were defending themselves. Much like what is going on today with Kyrgyz initiating unprovoked slaughter of less devout Muslims, Uzbeks and also Christians.
            5. Cyprus is not an Islamic State. Turkey (Islamic) tried to overrun it.
            6. Muslims are currently killing Christians and homosexuals in Turkey.
            7. Do you condemn, by name, Al-Qaida, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. as Terrorists? Do you openly oppose them in your Mosque?
            8. Hitler was not a Christian, either. The Grand Mufti at the time, al-Husseini, joined with Hitler to kill as many Jews as possible. Many of the Muslim troops came from Bosnia.
            9. Many Christians were friends with the Native Americans. Why are Muslims currently slaughtering Jews, Christians and others?
            10. Roman Catholicism is in apostasy.

          • Asma

            If this is the best you can offer,I see little point in continuing with the discussion.

          • Pat

            You just can't go around pointing fingers without evidence, yet when the truth is revealed, you insult and leave. You say you are a student of history. It doesn't look like it. The fact of the matter is that Muslims are currently killing innocent people, under the orders of Allah. You haven't really answered any questions.

          • Asma

            I would not have believed that in this day and age there existed Christians who distorted history to suite such cold blooded thinking. Christians killed half a million Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan and Christian Serbs killed 13000 innocent Bosnian Muslims and you justify these murders. What is there to discuss after this?

          • Tired,ReadyforBattle

            To Asma or whoever is playing the part for Asma at this time……

            Propaganda is one of the most easy to recognize , and tell the guy nex to you this includes him….

          • Tired,ReadyforBattle

            Just as a post script , it has been obvious for a while…….

          • Asma

            yes I am sure you cannot accept an educated Muslim lady who is trying to correct your misconceptions about Islam and the prophet of Islam.I do not fit into your preconceived idea of a Muslim woman who has no rights and is a property of her husband, as pointed out by another lady participant. I take it as a compliment. What I have stated is based on facts and not propaganda. More Muslims are being killed by Christians than vice versa.

          • Tired,ReadyforBattle

            Thank you for proving both Pats and my points

            Pat; I'm signing off , I'm just going to ready for the Battle . Have Fun

          • Asma

            No I don't think you or Pat have been able to win any points. But I understand that you will never accept that you are wrong. Human folly has no end. You have already lost the battle.

          • Pat

            Asma, it's not about "winning" anything. I have studied the Quran and lived with "moderate" Muslims for over 15 years. I can tell you that I am not ignorant. I have no preconceptions about anyone and it doesn't matter if you are a woman. Just remember that according to Shariah, you would not be permitted to speak to men like this. Biblical Principles have afforded you the freedom to do so. One thing you must learn is that not all Americans are Christians. Just as you must understand that Muslims are not a specific race. I have not distorted history. The facts have spoken for itself.

          • Asma

            I have also lived with Christians and Jewish people Pat .I know Shari a as a Muslim and you are mistaken if you think that Shari a prohibits us to talk to men. I was answering ReadyforBattle when he accused me of not being Asma. I maintain that more Muslims have been killed by Christians than vice versa. The reason why I am participating so actively in these debates is to bring Christians,Jews and Muslims closer and not to promote a soft cyber Jihad as was suggested by one of the participants on this forum

  • http://www.godofmoralperfection.net Jake Neuman

    NEW 980 PAGE BOOK: ISLAM IS EVIL IN THE NAME OF GOD
    Go to: http://www.godofmoralperfection.net
    EXCERPT FROM BOOK

    ISLAM IS FRAUDULENT

    ISLAM IS A TOTAL RENUNCIATION OF GOD. THE GREATEST CRIME AND SIN EVER COMMITTED BY MAN AGAINST GOD

    PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS ALLAH

    THE ALLAH (OF THE QURAN) NEVER EXISTED EXCEPT IN THE MIND OF MUHAMMAD

    As already stated – Allah (of the Quran) was the fictional creation of Muhammad who slaughtered, murdered, tortured, terrorized, raped, and enslaved kafirs (non-Muslims).
    ALL QURANIC TEACHINGS WERE FROM MUHAMMAD.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ihateretards TNM

      All religion is fiction

      • johnnywood

        Christianity is not religion but a relationship with GOD though faith in JESUS CHRIST.So you are correct in saying all religion is fiction.

    • Asma

      people who embrace Islam have to say shahada which says and I quote,"There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the prophet of Allah.
      Allah is the Arabic word for God and the Quran says there is only one God who has always been and will always be and Muhammad is a human being like other human beings, but he is a prophet and a seal on prophet hood.
      prophet Muhammad did not slaughter, murder,torture,or rape. He took prisoners of war as slaves ,but encouraged their freedom by encouraging people to free all slaves.He himself freed his slave named Zaid bin Harris and married him to his first cousin.
      Islam is a TRUE RELIGION.

      • Clay Cole

        What history are you reading? Muhammad was one of the bigest butchers the world has ever known.

        • Asma

          I will only say this in reply that what you have just said is a part of Islamophobic propaganda

          • Clay Cole

            When all reason fails pull the Islomaophbic card.

      • johnnywood

        History will not support your claims.

  • Andres de Alamaya

    The Soviet Union crumbled because they spent more than they had – as America has been doing and is doing more so under Obama – but in a larger sense the Soviet's biggest failure was not fully stamping out religion in their country, which was supposed to be their intent. The ignorance in the human animal seeks guidance from a deity of sorts and to this opportunistic men who claimed to be related to or have relationships with a god responded by starting new religions. Some religions, like Christianity and Judaism, have evolved, adapted to enlightened times. Islam did not. In fact, in contemporary times, instead of moving forward, a billion devotees have been hijacked and made victims of fundamentalists who would control them and the entire world. Until the world forbids the teaching of religion to those under drinking age, the brainwashing of infants before they can think for themselves, the world, in this sense, will remain in the dark ages.

    • Liny

      Spoken like a true anti-christian bigot! You have never read the Bible, so how can you make such statements?

      • Asma

        I will say that Christianity and judaism have changed rather than evolved while Islam stays unchanged and will stay unchanged till dooms day.

        • johnnywood

          Doomsday is coming.

    • gracie

      The Christianity of the Bible is about one thing only and that is love. Love G-d and love your neighbor. I have read the BIble. Nowhere do I see any instructions to go about killing people and converting by the sword. There are certainly those who have in the "name" of Christianity, but following Jesus would be an act of only love, not vilence. Islam however is full of instructions to kill non-muslims, violence towards women, instructions to lie for the advancement of Islam. Islam is exactly the opposite of Christianity. Truly if the world behaved like Jesus we would have heaven on earth.

      • Asma

        All religions preach love.

        • Clay Cole

          And the rocks will cry out, "Muslium there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him."

    • Foolster41

      *cough* Marx, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ill, *cough*
      Sorry, what was that about evil religions? Then again, maybe these guys are your heros, fascists all, and you obviously one of them.
      You hide behind trying to stop evil, but the reality is it's an excuse for your own kind of evil, fascism and biggotry.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/chucksampson chucksampson

      OH yeah, soviet union, great nation of official atheism. I like what the great poet and nobel laureate Alexandre Solzhenitsyn said about his homeland:

      Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn stated the following in relation to atheism:
      “ Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.

      Since then I have spend well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 MIllion of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened."

    • Guest

      As a Westerner, I think this is a pretty good idea.

  • http://crplanet.forumotions.com/forum.htm TNM

    I think people need to wake and see religion for what it really is. A vile disgusting thing that has killed millions over the years. Religion will be the death of mankind

    • Liny

      I agree, religion has killed millions and Islam is still going at it. Christianity is not a religion but a belief in a creator who actually cares about each and every one of us, including those who hate Him. Don't get the two confused.

      • Asma

        Islam is a belief system which says that there is one God who created the universe and that from time to time Allah sent his messengers to the mankind to teach people the true path . The messengers were human beings who received revelations from Allah through angel Gabriel and conveyed the same to the people. Some of these messengers were David,Jonas, Joseph, Moses,Jesus and Muhammad who was also the seal of prophet hood.

    • Foolster41

      *cough* Marx, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ill, *cough*
      Sorry, what was that about evil religions?
      You're posting about which you do not know. You're mixing up the tenets of Islam and Christianity. Go back and read the Koran and the New Testiment and try again.

      • Asma

        No i am an Islamic scholar and I know what I am saying.The problem is that you don't know Islam and when people like me try to explain you reject the explanations as they do not fit in with your Islamophobia

        • johnnywood

          What are your scholastic credentials? Any one can claim to be a scholar. I claim to be a brain surgeon. If you need an operation let me get my screwdriver and pliers.

          • Asma

            Are you being funny or are you being rude.In any case, I am not going to treat you with anything other than respect as prophet Esa (Jesus)said if some one slaps you on one cheek,offer him the other. The trouble is that you people are not willing to even rationalize Islam,but I am glad that I could at least say this to all of you that Islam is the most humane religion and the Islam that you have conjured in your mind is not the true Islam.

          • Clay Cole

            How can write what you just did?

            If I had said what I have in any Muslium country I'd be charged with Blasphey against the Prophet.

            When you repeat Mohammids blasphey against Christ nothing happens to you any where in the world.

            We turn the other cheek. You strike us in the face.

            In the west you are allowed to freely spead your message, build mosques and have a quran.

            In most Muslum countrys it is against the law for Christians to preach Christ, to build churches or have a Bible.

            We turn the other cheek. You stike us.

            A cartoonist draw a picture of Mohammid and Musliums roit and place death sentences on the cartoonist.

            In my home town (Killeen/Fort Hood, Texas) a treasonous man murders 13 people in the name of Islam.

            In my home we have a Mosque and small Muslium community. Not one of them have been harrassed because of a Muslium murdering in the name of Islam.

            We turn the other cheek. You strike us in the face.

          • Clay Cole

            In Saudi Arabi a few years back the morality police made a group of young girls burn to death in a burning school, because they didn't have on their head scarfs.

            In Iran a woman is stoned to death because she went out in public with her brother and not her husband.

            A Muslium cuts the head off of a Jew named Daniel Perle in the name of allah because he is a Jew.

            I'd hate to know your idea of inhumane.

          • Dean from Ohio

            Isa "Ben gercek asmayim…Cubuk asmada kalmazsa kendiliginden meyve veremez" dedi. (Yuhanna 15:1). Asma, Isa'da kaliyor musun?

            English translation of Turkish above:- Jesus said, "I am the true vine (asma)… Every branch that does not remain in vital union with me cannot bear fruit by itself." (John 15:1). Asma, are you in vital union with Jesus?

    • Vic

      So true! Who was it that said Religion is war! but fortunately Truth wins!!

    • Clay Cole

      Compared to Athestic Communism and Pagan NAZIism religion is far behind in the number of people killed. Moe kill 60,000,000. You know that for most of this history of civilation that that is more people than exsited on the earth at one time.

      Looks like we're screwed either way.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/chucksampson chucksampson

      Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn stated the following in relation to atheism:
      “ Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.

      Since then I have spend well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened."[57]

      • JasonPappas

        The problem is that men have forgotten Jefferson, Locke, Cicero, and Aristotle. They have forgotten individual rights and the dignity of man. Atheism says what you don't believe in. The important point is what you do believe in. If it is collectivism, death follows. If it is individualism, human flourishing follows.

        Religion gave us the Thirty Years War in the 17th century, which was as vicious as any 20th century war but without the technology to translate that viciousness into greater death totals. Still, without the advantage of modern technology the Thirty Years War is said to have killed 1/3 of the people of Germany. That compares to Communism and Fascism.

        In the aftermath of the Thirty Years War, religion was taken more as a personal matter. It was during the Enlightenment that rights, liberty, and toleration gave birth to America.

        • Clay Cole

          You forget how many more people were killed in the name of humanism during the French Revoultion. I have to disagree with you that the enlightenment gave birth to America. It was the Geate Awaking that did that.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

            Ah, but the French Revolution was collectivist! "The important point is what you do believe in. If it is collectivism, death follows. If it is individualism, human flourishing follows."

            We disagree on the importance of the Great Awakening vs. the influence of Locke & Jefferson.

          • Clay Cole

            Ah, but the collectivism of the French Revolution was a product of the enlightment. The individualism of the American Revolution was the product of the Great Awaking. I do not for a minute claim that Jefferson was Christian. He a deist and influenced by the enlightment. However, Washington, Adams, Madison, even Franklin (though a very poor one) were Christians who were more influenced by the Great Awaking.

            The enlightenment has some influence, but the vast majority came from the Great Awaking.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

            I agree on Jefferson. Are you seriously telling me that Washington, whose role model was the Roman Senator Cato, is a traditional Christian? The conservative historian, Paul Johnson, doesn't think so.

            Madison was a student of Rev. John Witherspoon, President of Princeton and signer of the Declaration. Witherspoon was influenced by the Enlightenment thinkers, Thomas Reid and Francis Hutchinson. Witherspoon had a charming way of speaking, including substitution of the phrase “Republic of Heaven” for the “Kingdom of Heaven” in his sermons. Monarchy was an unequivocal evil in his book. Agree or not, I have to like the guy.

            I know that Adams rejected much of the orthodox Calvinist theology of his parents, including predestination. Still, I don't know enough about his religious beliefs.

            I don’t see how you get the Great Awakening in here. Yes, a large part of the population was affected by the Great Awakening and that help the cause of religious liberty. But I don’t see it in the intellectual leaders of the Revolution. I see no sign of it in the Federalist Papers (or anti-Federalist writings) either.

          • Clay Cole

            The foundation of our liberities is "We are endowed by our Creator with certain inablable rights.."

            The founders agrued for our liberities from that persepctive. Our rights come from God. That is an idea from the Great Awaking. The Enlightenment as shown in Europe rights come from the government. The entire Federalist Papers foundations are from the Great Awaking. That is why the Bill of Rights are what the government can't do to us.

          • JasonPappas

            The words "endowed by our Creator" and "Laws of Nature and Nature's God" mean little more than it is a part of our nature and can't be changed. This is not only true for moral law but also for the laws of physics. That they believed moral and natural laws were created by a God doesn't mean that they believe it has to be told via revelation (although it might). On the contrary, they believed it could be derived from observation and reason. They followed John Locke in this regard.

            This is also why the Federalist Papers constantly refers to Greek, Roman, and European history. It rarely refers to the Bible or Hebrew history. There is no evidence that the Great Awakening plays any role in the debate on the Constitution.

            Now that being said, the Founding Fathers would expect secular thought (philosophy & history) and religion will not conflict. After all, what you learn about God's creation by examination of nature (human or natural) can't contradict his word. Still, they sought common ground by references to the lessons of human history and rational argument.

          • Clay Cole

            I think we are going to have to agree to disagree or we will both being writing books on the subject.

            Something tells me we are not that far apart on the subject as it would appear at first glance.

            Remember what men can give, men can take away. What God gives no man can take away. The foundation on which liberty is built.

          • Clay Cole

            One other thing. Don't make the mistake of placing Christians into tiny boxes. Chirstianity is about indivdiual salvation and the individual's realationship to God. The is why I want a secular Government and a religous Christian Socity.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

            I'm glad you point that out. Christianity is indeed about individual salvation. Islam is about imperial conquest and subjugation. Christians can appreciate the need for religious liberty and secular government. Muslims can't.

          • Clay Cole

            That is the main problem we should have with Islam. That is after stopping them from killing us.

          • Constance

            We wanted to stop paying unfair taxes and that we couldn't conduct our own affairs. That was done from England and King George. People came to the new world because they wanted to be free to practice their own religion. Those who wrote the Constitution wanted to be sure that our new great country wouldn' have a "state" religion. Look what happened to England when the royals had different religions. Slaughter! That is why the we have the first amendment in the bill of rights as well as very important rights the crown wouldn't let us have.

  • JasonPappas

    Mr. Kilpatrick, please, the Koran, Hadith, and Sira are about Mohammad. It doesn’t have to rehash the story of Jesus. Since Islam holds that the Bible was corrupted it only has to post “the corrections.”

    Muslims, on the other hand, will argue that Christianity can’t stand-up to critical scrutiny by simply referring to the Trinity. Islam holds that it is a true monotheistic religion while Christianity has three … no one … no three … no one God[s]. It is considered a mystery that is beyond human reason. I’ve met Muslim converts who left Christianity because they couldn’t accept the Trinity. It made no sense to them.

    As a non-religious person, let me be the judge of logical coherence. Islam wins!

    If we are going to use reason, both religions fail. They depend on revelation. Clashing revelations can’t be settled in the court of reason. Let’s stay in the realm of reality and reason. Here Western [classical] liberalism, based on natural rights, wins hands down.

    • bookimdano

      "let me be the judge of logical coherence. Islam wins!"

      Self appointed judges usually fail to perform well as independent thinkers as they self appoint with an agenda.

      You should actually read the Koran if you want to make such subjective comments about something you know very little about. People like you make me cringe.

      • Asma

        well when you discuss you should be ready to acknowledge logic even if its against your belief system.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

        I find Islam abhorrent. You miss my point. As a monotheistic religion, Islam has fewer contradictions. Logical coherence isn’t a test for truth. Truth is conformance to reality. Human reality requires liberty which Islam doesn’t allow.

        Kilpatrick is arguing logical coherence as a theology. I find this irrelevant to human flourishing. My point is that Kilpatrick won’t get very far with his theological arguments. His point that Islam doesn't write enough about Jesus is just silly.

        • Clay Cole

          Kilpatrick's point wasn't that Islam dosen't talk enough about Jesus. It is that Islam, to turn a phrase, makes a cartoon charter out of Him. This degrades Jesus. This would not bother me except Musliums tell me they are lifting Jesus by doing this. I really don't like someone P***ing on me and telling me it is raining.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

            As I understand it, Islam sees Jesus as a prophet. It denies his divinity and resurrection. I know Jews and Unitarians that respect Jesus as a prophet but also deny his divinity and resurrection. Now this may offend a Christian. But this isn’t our main beef with Islam, is it now?

          • Clay Cole

            Unitarians and "Christians" that deny the divinity and resurrection aren't Christians. What is the purpose of being a "Christian" if you don't believe in Christ? They may be a member of a social club, but not a Christian Church. So as far as a religion goes, which is what Kilpatrick was addressing, the answer is yes.

            Now as a partical matter, I'd say stoping Crazy Islamic Jahidist from killing us is a little more pressing at this time. I'd rather not be a postive influence for Christ by being a martyr. :)

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

            I think we agree on the Islamic threat that we face.

            Of course, we aren't threatened by Unitarians and Jews. We may all believe in something different; and I normally prefer to keep my beliefs private.

            The problem with Islam is that it is a political ideology that threatens our social order. That makes me concerned with this religion. I see it as irredeemably harmful.

          • Clay Cole

            99% Agreed. I don't keep my personal believes to myself. :)

        • Constance

          It is not a theology. He is just showing the difference between Christianity's Jesus and Islam's Jesus. That is called a comparison. My conclusion in this is that he had to include Jesus because he supposedly believes all Christian prophets are Islamic prophets and MOSTLY because he knew he would have to say something about Jesus because the Chritians adore and follow him as one of the three persons in ONE GOD. And, yes, that is a mystery. So isn't how the world and life started.

    • jhimmi

      The idea that Islam 'corrected' two thousand years of Judeo-Christian gospels is not logical nor coherent.

      The real problem is that there are so many obvious mistakes in the Quran when it comes to describing Judaism and Christianity. Not only does Islam say Christianity and Judaism are corrupted, it can't even correctly identify the things that it says have been corrupted!

      For example, the Quran claims that Christians consider the Trinity to consist of God, Jesus, and Mary. No Christian exegetical document (before or after Mohammed dreamt up Islam) considers Mary part of the Trinity. And yet, the Quran boldy states this….error. The Quran was just plain wrong.

      The really funny thing is how pissed off Muslims get at Ahmadi Muslims. The Ahmadis are to Sunni/Shia as Christians are to Jews, except Ahmadis call themselves Muslims with a Messiah on top.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

        Jhimmi, you don’t understand my point about logical coherence. Islam is wrong. That’s obvious. But you can be consistently wrong.

        Islam contradicts Christian doctrine but that doesn’t make it internally contradictory. Trying to point out to a Muslim how their writings don’t jive with Christian or Jewish writings doesn’t convince them that they are wrong. Why should it?

        Kirkpatrick is trying to show that Islam has internal problems being consistent. That’s never discouraged a believer. That’s often a challenge for a believer that proves faith is needed more than ever. Human reason is declared as too weak to understand the mysteries of the faith. Kirkpatrick will get no where with this approach.

        • Clay Cole

          I don't know what your personal believes are, but you hit the nail on the head here.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

            Thanks. From Jhimmi's comments and other people comments I don't think my original post was clear. It was too cryptic. I appreciate the discussion. I hope my respect (even when I disagree) shows.

          • Clay Cole

            Yes your respect shows. It took me a few times reading your orignial post to understand it. I'll admit that I had tunel vision and it took me a while to see it as the objective observation that it was.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/RogueWave24 RogueWave24

      Your Muslim converts friends who became Muslim because they couldn't wrap their heads around the "trinity" concept – they're idiots. That's like Republicans becoming Communists because they can't understand the right to life movement.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

        LOL. No argument from me here. Anyone who joins the Islamic faith makes me question their sanity, ethics, or mental health.

    • Clay Cole

      Sorry, I've been reading your post with tunel vision. I've been making the same mistake in my discussions with you that Asma has made in her discussions with me.

      You are making an objective observation of how people respond to different arugements. Your observations are correct. I take it that you are a non religious person from your post. You have been honest in telling us what you and people like you see as logical. As a Christian I have to admit that we have not done a very good job in presenting arguements that people like will accept.

      Facts are facts.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

        My main point is that Kirkpatrick won't get very far with Muslims. If he converts some to Christianity, all power to him. I'm not worried about Baptists flying planes into our buildings.

        And I think every right thinking American can be proud of his/her values in the face of what Islam is offering the world.

        I think you've done fine in explaining your points. In this kind of venue it takes some back and forth before we understand each other.

        • Clay Cole

          I'm glad you aren't worry about Baptist, because I am one.

          I think a mistake I have made today and many of us have is that we completely distoried every arguement that that poor Muslium girl gave. As you so ably pointed out, when you attack and destory ones arguements for their faith you push them deeper into it.

          For that reason I have to concede your point that Kirkpatick won't get very far with Muslims. It doesn't matter that he right.

    • Pat

      If Allah and Mohammad didn't have to "rehash the story of Jesus," then why did they spend any time discrediting Him (3:59, 4:157, 4:171, 5:116-117)? Clashing revelations? The younger has to prove to the elder.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

        Pat, I don't know what you are talking about.

        Let me explain what I mean. Muslims believe that the books of Christians and Jews are corrupt, i.e. that they have errors. For example, Muslims believe that Jesus wasn't crucified (Sura 4:157 that you refer to). If this is one of their few disagreements why would they have to re-write the whole Bible? It should be sufficient to just state their disagreement.

        Apparently Muslims aren't objecting to every detail of Jesus' life in the Bible. Obviously, they believe a few points are wrong and just as obvious, Christians don't agree. So what do you want from me? I'm just pointing out the differences between the religions and why it doesn't make sense to complain that Muslims haven't re-written the whole Bible.

        Kirkpatrick believes he can cause Muslims to feel their narrative is inadequate because they don't have a completely re-written story of Jesus. Want to take bets that this doesn't matter to Muslims?

        • Pat

          Jason,
          It was just a friendly note on your initial comment. There is more to Islam than just disagreements with Christianity. What Muslims do object to is the Divinity of Christ. The Divinity of Jesus Christ (John 10:30-33) is central to Christianity. I'm very well acquainted with the "theology" of Islam.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

            Thanks, Pat.

            Now that I understand I couldn't agree more. There is much more to Islam than rejecting the divinity of Jesus (i.e. the Trinity). If that was the only difference they'd be harmless Unitarians. Islam is a problem for the world and as you know that's the big story.

            While not religious, I agree that the divinity of Christ is essential to Christian theology. It may not be essential to those who are looking for prophetical ethical inspiration, which Muslims claim. However, they also show no signs of having learned anything from the NT in this regard.

  • sunny

    Mohammad was genius in manipulating and coercing . The Mention of Abraham, Moses and Jesus in Koran is an eywash.
    By including these names in koran he wanted the jews and christians to belive in Koran and take them under the fold of ISLAM.
    It is a very crooked ,coercive and cunning thinking on part of Mohmmad.

    • Asma

      Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet of God .Peace be upon him

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/RogueWave24 RogueWave24

        Mohammad was a bad guy. The world would probably be at peace today had he never been born. He has been the cause of so much misery on this planet – I guarantee he is not enjoying 72 virgins. I would wager to say that he is probably a little too warm, where ever he is.

  • Saba

    Thank you Mr.Kilpatrick for that excellent piece, again it proves that the Koran is not what it claims it's nothing more, but an unholy book.

  • Clay Cole

    The central character in history is Jesus. He has had the greatest influence on mankind of anyone. Even those that do not believe in Him as God, aspire to His teachings.

    This is going to be a very controversial statement. Islam is Satan's counterfeit to Christianity. I'm sure that Muslims believe that they are following God. I'm sure they are not. Simple logic tells us that either Islam or Christianity leading people to hell. I'm sure that it is Islam sending people to hell.

    • Ez4moi

      Have you considered the type of being which is likely sitting on top of that velvet covered stone building in Mecca toward which 1.6 billion Muslims bow, scrape, and pray several times a day? Is it not precisely the worship Lucifer desired for himself in Heaven?

      • Asma

        We do not worship Kaaba.We face Kaaba when we say our prayers to Allah and Allah alone

      • Clay Cole

        Satan asked Jesus to bow at his feet and worship him. Satan desires worship and controll. He doesn't care in what form it comes.

    • Iqy

      The Quran teaches that Satan is the biggest enemy of mankind. Why would satan create a religion that teaches people to depise him.
      On the otherhand, satan is pleased that people are worshiping a human being, Jesus, and crucifixes rather than God Almighty. Its the Christians who have been tricked by Satan, not the Muslims

      • Asma

        The Satan was punished for arrogance and we human beings should learn a lesson from his banishment from the paradise .
        We should not show arrogance to each other but be humble and polite. I mean one can say the same things without insulting each other.If the non Muslims says that they don't believe in the prophet hood of prophet Muhammad,I would not get offended as its their right to believe in what appeals to them.However when they use derogatory language for him ,its hitting below the belt and surely this kind of behaviour is unacceptable in any civilized community. I am sure MosesPBUH and Jesus AS will not approve of such behaviour either.

  • raelene

    The most offensive thing I have ever seen was a 8.5 x 11 photocopied poster put up by Moslems at a bus stop that I was at. It said:

    Jesus Will Kill

    and went on to say that at the end of time Jesus would return and kill everyone who was not a Moslem.

    In other words, it is fine for a Moslem to insult other people's beliefs. But woe unto anyone who insults their own pedophile mass-murderer.

    • Asma

      Muslims never insult other people's beliefs.

    • Guest

      What that probably means is that everyone who is a believing Christian who does not drop his faith and submit to Islam will be killed.
      Then the Muslim murderers will conveniently blame their behavior on Jesus.
      Muslims do not cultivate personal responsibility any more than they cultivate control of the temper and self.

  • Pat

    TNM, you cannot paint all religions as "vile (and) disgusting" fiction, becuase of Islam. To learn a little history, the West, as we know it, was built upon Biblical principles. The behaviour of Muslims suggests the evil origins of Islam. The behaviour of Christians suggests that the Bible is true.

    JasonPappas, we would have no "natural rights" if it weren't for the Bible. Christianity brought Europe (and by extension, America and Australia) out of the dark. The Biblical principles I mentioned, secured for us the right to own property (Ex. 20:17), personal responsibility (Ex. 21:35-36), education (Deut. 6:7), hospitals (Lk. 10:33-34), elections (Acts 6:3), owning weapons for protection (Lk. 22:36), etc. Why should these matter? Because we are created in the image of God (Gen 1:26). The Trinity is Biblical (Gen. 1:1-2, John 1:1-3); here, we are presented with God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son. Logically, the Trinity stands up to scrutiny. Therefore, the Bible is irrefutable in its claims, especially about our natural state (Rom. 3:23) and salvation (Rom.10:9).

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

      Sorry, Pat, but natural rights are a Greco-Roman concept. Cicero is the best historical source that we have of our Roman heritage on natural law and natural rights. Christians are indebted to him.

      I wrote about it on my blog: http://libertyandculture.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_http://libertyandculture.blogspot.com/2007/03/cic

      The Hebrews (as Leo Strauss notes) had no distinction between "by nature" and "by convention". Jewish law is God's positive law. It is law because God posits it. Natural law is Greco-Roman, to be discovered by an examination of nature.

      • Clay Cole

        I think you need to read the first chapter of Romans. Paul was a Jew with Jewish ideas. He received from his Jewish teachings that God revealed himself through both nature and direct revelation. You could say that the Greeks and Jews arrived at the idea of natural law independently of each other.

        • JasonPappas

          Yes, Clay, but Paul was also an educated Hellenized Jew and proud Roman citizen. It would not be surprising to see Greco-Roman influences. Indeed, Tarsus, had a Stoic tradition for several centuries before Paul was born there. Still, I’m not convinced, in Romans, that Paul puts forth and develops the idea of natural rights.

          I’m overjoyed that you, like our Founding Fathers, saw no conflict between the Greco-Roman principles of rights and the Bible. This harmony enabled the absorption of the best of Greek and Roman thought by Christian philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas and John Locke, who transmitted the “natural rights” philosophy to our founders.

          This did not happen in Islam. In the Islamic world, philosophy and religion competed for several centuries until Muslim scholars (i.e. al-Ghazali) decided that philosophy and Islam don't mix–Islam won out. That sealed Islamic fate.

          • Asma

            Islam does not need any other philosophy.Its a true philosophy and any one with an open heart will acknowledge that it makes a lot of sense proving by its content that it is a true religion

          • Tiredreadyforbattle

            You might want to rephrase that statement to acknowledge that islam adamantly refuses to accept any other philosophy , and/ or logic pattern not based on mohammads statements of the koran. This does not prove that an open heart is required, but does show ignorance and fear are. A true religion can be satan worship as well !

          • Asma

            I don't want to say the same thing to you as its against the teachings of Islam to be disrespectful to people of other religions

          • Tired,readyforbattle

            But ! You accept enslaving or killing me !

          • Asma

            says who?

          • JasonPappas

            Thanks, Tiredreadyforbattle. That says it all.

    • Sandra

      Brought it out of the dark?? Sir, remember the dark ages? the Inquisition? These were the times that resulted from the bible!! The witch hunts. The dehumanizing and whitewashing of every native culture on earth!!

      • Pat

        Ok, to start with, I do not apologise for the Roman Catholic System. The Inquisitions are not defendable nor endorsed by the Bible. The RCS tried to rule Europe with the State, which is in contradiction to what Jesus said about His Kingdom not being of this world. The RCS was and is corrupt. You didn't mention the Crusades, but they seem implied. The Crusades were a reaction to the 600 years of Islamic Jihad. Slave trading? The RCS learned how to trade slaves from Muslims. The Reformation brought Europe out of the dark. If it weren't for the Reformation, the West would still be in 1300.

        • Constance

          The RCS did not want to rule with the Emperor, but at that time they didn't have a true "army" and needed protection. As for inquistions, the government was was in charge and if you read history not many were killed (at most 4k). Without the Crusades we would now be an Islamic country. There was more done in the so called dark ages than you think. The reformation had to do with relgion and not culture. We have had culture and beautiful buildings, pictures, writings, etc. More at one period than another. The RCS made hospitals, schools, orphanages, universities and is one of the largest giver of charity and help. Like the Red Cross, it helps everyone no matter their creed or religion. That is what a Christian does. Everyone at that time was involved with the slave trade.

          • Pat

            Jesus said His Kingdom was not of this world. RCS didn't need an army. The facts are that, throughout Europe, the RCS was ruling with the State. Burning people alive for reciting the Lord's Prayer in English? Tyndale was murdered by the RCS for interpreting the Bible into English and was an enemy of the State because of it. The RCS was co-regent. I know that not many were killed by the Inquisitions, however, the RCS with the State, killed some. That's the point. I agree with the Crusades. The Reformation brought about the removal of the RCS from co-regency. RCS did some good things, I don't deny it, but the slave trade was sanctioned by the RCS (who also was able to tax as part of the State), as a result of contact with Islam. Prior to that time, Europe was Feudal. There was no slave trading.

          • Asma

            what did reformed Christians do to the native Americans? Was the third Reich a Roman catholic empire?

          • Asma

            Slavery was rife in Greek times and the great Roman empire. Islam discourages slavery.

          • Pat

            Asma, student of history, reformed Christians did nothing. Thanksgiving originated from Native Americans and Christians. The Reich was not in any way attached to the Roman Catholic Church. They just didn't realise what Hitler was doing. Some Christians were killed by Hitler because of their opposition. However, like I posted elsewhere, al-Husseini had no problem in actively participating in Hitler's "solution." Big difference.

            Student of history, the Roman empire, with slave trading, collapsed. Europe was feudal. There was no slave trading in feudal times. People were born into serfdom or nobility. Quick references to the fact that Quran endorses slavery: 8:69, 24:32, 16:75 and also Hadith: Bukhari 80:753, 41:598, 72:734 (Mohammad owned at least one slave). After contact with Muslims, Europe began slave trading. Who do you think they were buying people from? They weren't kidnapping like the Muslims were. Please study history before claiming to be a knowledgebale student.

          • Asma

            Pat ,
            I only said that Islam discourages slavery.I didn't say Islam abolished slavery.
            Were the Christians who settled in America and cleansed America of most of the natives, Roman Catholics ?
            What was the religion of Hitler?
            In his life time the Prophet PBUH set many slaves free and he freed his slave , Zaid , may Allah be pleased with him and adopted him. One of the most famous companions of prophet Muhammad was Bilal,may Allah be pleased with him,a freed slave who was deputed to call for prayers (AZAAN)
            Zaid was one of the first four people who embraced Islam.
            If you dont want to read solid history books,just read the famous true novel,"Roots" and see how slaves were caught and brought to America.
            America is a nation built on genocide of Red Indians and built on slave labour and Christian are responsible for both of these atrocities.
            I only claimed to be a student of history who does not distort facts and calls spade a spade.

          • MixMike

            "I only said that Islam discourages slavery.I didn't say Islam abolished slavery."

            Modern Christian law actually abolishes slavery. When is Islam going to get with the program? Don't believe me, look at slavery practiced by Islamic countries in Sudan and Mauritania.

            "Were the Christians who settled in America and cleansed America of most of the natives, Roman Catholics?"

            Any ethnic cleansing of Native Americans and Slavery was not based on theology or based in Christian law. It was a political measure that was made devoid of religious law.

            That said, the concept of slavery was actually taught to Europeans from the Moors in North Africa who were *ding ding ding* MUSLIMS. Muslim slave traders actually helped facilitate the slavery industry and were responsible for bringing many slaves to America.

            Interestingly enough, the Americans who opposed Ehnic Cleansing and Slaver the loudest were religious Christians. The abolitionists had their philosophy deeply rooted in Christian theology.

          • Asma

            Of course you may not give me credit for knowing a lot,but I have already explicitly told all of you that I firmly believe in the goodness of Christian faith because of the Holy Quran and the prophet of Islam and I am not saying that the wiping of red Indians was based on Christian law. By the same token the killings by Jihadis is not based on Islamic law.
            I will look into the truth of your information that slavery is practised in Sudan and Mauritania as I am not aware of this.
            Sorry I did not understand the term ding ding ding Muslims. I would only like to know what it means if its not derogatory slang.Other wise don't bother.
            Go back and read the history of slavery in America once again to get your facts right.

          • Asma

            I have looked into the history of slavery in Mauritania and Sudan and found that it is indeed practised at an individual level ,but slavery is against the law of these countries. Individuals are cheating the state. Practice of slavery in America and Europe was not based on Christian law and similarly the slavery practised by individuals in Sudan and Mauritania is not based on Islamic law..
            Why do you find it necessary to blame Islam for every wrong committed in a Muslim country? I would not like to blame Christianity for the atrocities committed in Christian countries,but if you prefer I am happy to own up to every wrong doing of every Muslim in the past hundred years,if you own up the death and destruction of the first world war, crimes of Nazi Germany , five million deaths in Vietnam,not to mention the Serb atrocities and mass killings in Iraq and Afghanistan.

          • Pat

            Asma, here are some endorsements of Jihad in Quran:2:98, 2:190-193, 2:216-218, 3:166-167, 66:9. You do not acknowledge the goodness of Christianity, because you deny the Divinity of Christ, as I have pointed out in one of our other discussions. I have already shown you how slavery as we know it today originated within Islam. I have already answered your questions. Your moral equivalency arguments are flawed. Do you openly condemn Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaida as Terrorist groups (as I asked earlier)? Do you not remember our past discussions, or are the accusations true?

          • Asma

            Thank you very much for providing me with the Quranic references. Its much more civil than hurling abuse. Here is the full text of the verses you quote,I took them from N J Dawod's translation of the holy Quran published by the Penguin classics ISBN 0-140-44920-5. N J Dawood is not a religious scholar,but an expert on ancient Arabic. He has translated a variety of Arabic texts from the holy Quran to Arabian classics such as The Arabian Nights:

            2:98, Say: 'who ever is an enemy of Gabriel'(who has by God's grace revealed to you the Koran as a guide and joyful tidings for the faithful,confirming previous scriptures) 'whoever is an enemy of God,His angels or His apostles,or of Gabriel or Michael, will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'

            2:190-193, Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors.
            Slay them where ever you find them. Drive them out of the places from where they drove you. Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed. But do not fight them fight them within the precincts of the Holy Mosque unless they attack you there: if they attack you put them to the sword.Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded; but if they mend their ways,know that God is forgiving and merciful.

            2:216-218, Fighting is obligatory for you , much as you dislike it.But you may hate a thing although it is good for you and love a thing although it is bad for you.God knows,but you know not. They ask you about the sacred month,say: ' To fight in this month is a grave offence:but to debar others from the path of God, to deny Him,and to expel his worshippers from the Holy Mosque, is far more grave in His sight. Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed.'
            They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith – if they are able.But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever,his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be tenants of the fire,wherein they shall abide for ever.

            3:166-167, when they were told : come. fight for the cause of God and defend yourselves,' they replied:'If only we could fight,we would surely come with you.'
            on that day they were nearer unbelief than faith.Their words bellied their intentions: but God knew their secret thoughts.Such were the men who,as they sat at home said of their brothers :'Had they listened to us,they would not have been slain.'

            66:9, Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them.Hell shall be their home,evil their fate.

            all the Ayas as we call them are self explanatory and I am on purpose not putting them in their true context as the meaning is quite clear even otherwise.
            Islam is not a pacifist religion .It instructs its followers not to be aggressors, but to retaliate in kind if attacked. unless you got your references wrong,I don't see which part of the above you object to.
            I condemn Al Qaida whole heartedly and unreservedly.
            I will do the same to Hezbullah,once Israel quits occupied lands of Lebanon( Shaba farms) and releases eleven thousand Lebanese prisoners that it holds since its occupation of Lebanon 20 years ago.
            As for Hizbullah its a resistance organization which has a right to resist Israeli occupation of Palestine by all available means which it has the right to under international law.

          • Pat

            Sorry, Asma, but Zahir Muhsein, in 1977, admitted that "Palestinians" are really Jordanians: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28
            And it is not "Islamophobic propaganda," it is very objective. Student of history, what we call today "Israel" was called "Palestine" before 1948. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
            Archaeological evidence reveals a Jewish presence in the area called "Israel" long before "Palestinian" involvement. Hezbollah and Hamas see the existence of Israel as the primary act of aggression and are therefore, "defending themselves," despite all evidence. Lebanon, until very recent history, was predominantly Christian. Therefore, Hezbollah are occupiers. There are more Jihadi verses in the Quran and Hadith, but one does not see the equivalent Jihadi verses within the Bible. The premise for all the admonitions for war you quoted, is that everyone who is not Muslim is wrong and deserve to die. 2:216-218 and 66:9 are very telling. I applaud you for comdemning Al-Qaeda, your view on Hezbollah is very shaky, but you forgot Hamas.

          • Asma

            Sorry Pat I misprinted the word Hezbolla in the last paragraph of my comment.please substitute Hamas for Hezbolla and read it like:
            Hamas is a resistance organization………
            I will answer the rest as soon as I can find time.
            Now we are engaging in good decent discussion.
            Bye for now :)

          • Asma

            I agree with you that Christianity is a pacifist religion and Islam is not.
            As you can see from the Quranic verses ,Islam instructs its followers to strike back if attacked . Islam hates idolatry where as it respects the monotheist religions.
            The reasons given by all non Muslims for the Jews' occupation of Israel is that they used to live in this land at the time of prophet Jesus(PBUH) and the Palestinians have their roots in Jordan.
            If the few remaining Red Indians said to you that America is our land and should be given back to us or Aborigines lay a claim an Australia,will you give your land to them,the natives.
            In this day and age all of us can trace our roots to areas other than where we live.This fact does not give us the right to the native land of our forefathers.
            i am sure you will applaud me when ever my views agree with yours and consider my views shaky when ever they will be different from you,but at least we are talking with respect to each other and learning the art of tolerating opposite views then ours.

          • Pat

            Again, your moral equivalence arguments are flawed, because the Native Americans and Australian Aborigines have not been relocated throughout the world; and there were always Jews and Christians in Palestine.

            According to Naskh, 9:5 abrogates all other seemingly peaceful verses: “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful” (Supported by 9:14, 28, 30,73, 123). Therefore, no "defence" is needed on the part of Muslims.

            If Islam respects monotheistic religions, then why do Muslims in Islamic States kill Jews and Christians? You have claimed to respect Jesus Christ, however, you deny Him in the same breath. The Bible has revealed Him to be God (John 10:30) and that God commands everyone to repent (Acts 17:30) from their sins. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no-one comes to the Father but by Me" (John 14:6).

          • Asma

            Pat we really cant go on like this.Non Muslims are killing Muslims every day,yet you ignore this altogether. You interpret the Quranic verses as you want them to sound. You try to twist all historical facts according to your wish. just as you have a right to be a devout Christian,I have a right to be a devout Muslim.Yes Jesus was right when he said that. He was a true prophet and there fore he was the way…….
            Believing in the prophet hood of Jesus PBUH is an article of faith of Islam. Lets leave this discussion here.For you your path and for me my path. Go in peace.

          • MixMike

            "What was the religion of Hitler?"

            Hitler was technically a Pagan. That said, his best friend the Grand Mufti was a Muslim and BEGGED Hitler to build death camps in Israel and destroy World Jewry.

          • Asma

            Please check in Wikipedia ,if reading history books bothers you. In all authentic books on history he is acknowledged as a Christian.

          • MixMike

            He may have been born a Christian but he didn't base any of his philosophy or ideology (which went on to form Nazism) in Christian law. He used Pagan and secular scientific ideas (derived from Darwinism – not to say Darwin was racist) to promote his racist ideology.

          • MixMike

            "I only claimed to be a student of history who does not distort facts and calls spade a spade."

            You must be a lousy student of history. You do realize the phrase calling a spade a spade is racist towards African Americans in contemporary America?

          • Asma

            I am sorry I was not aware If using this phrase has any derogatory connotations.I will not use it in future.My English teacher was a white Christian lady.

          • MixMike

            "My English teacher was a white Christian lady."

            Well that explains EVERYTHING.

          • Asma

            Well MixMike I am a very honest person and one thing I dont do is LIE. I am just upset with madam Francis for not telling me that using the phrase 'call a spade a spade' is not good English.
            I would have given all of you my e.mail address,had i not encountered hate speech on this forum (I don't want to open my e.mail account and see loads of hate messages for me, my prophet(PBUH) or for my religion).
            Glad that having a white Christian teacher explains a few things to you.

          • Tired,ReadyforBattle

            MixMike;
            Remember you are conversing with two or more (depends on the time and place ) people portraying Asma , so to expect an honest and true response , or answer from an honest individual ?

            Won't happen

          • Asma

            Well I must say you do have suspicious minds.A few days back I read another comment saying that Asma was guided to this page by a Jihadi group to launch a soft cyber Jihad and in return they should launch a counter cyber crusade on "their sites". Now I am two or three people depending on time and place.
            I should have used names like MixMike or Tired,ReadyforBattle to conceal even my real name to qualify as an honest individual.

  • pete

    Please read the article, "Secularism's Ongoing Debt to Christianity" by John Steinbrucken at Americanthinker.com. The author, who is an atheist, explains how the West's Judeo-Christian heritage provides freedom but Islam threatens to kill freedom.

    Note to TNM above: Anyone killing or harming another in name of Christ is going against what Jesus taught and lived. They are not a Christian. On the other hand Hitler, Stalin, Mao were atheists/darwinists — killing over 100 million people combined. These dictators were living out darwinism. Abortion has killed over 40 million babies since 1973 in the US alone. Please don't neglect the immense carnage done due to darwinism.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/chucksampson chucksampson

      Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn stated the following in relation to atheism:
      “ Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.

      Since then I have spend well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened."[57]

  • Tired,readyforbattle

    Thanks for pointing out, another of many " fallacy in compositions " of the islamic indoctrination. A point to ponder, would be, what good God would want to treat any lifeform in the way the koran insists ? Consider that God could do anything.

    ps What created that which created ?

    • Clay Cole

      A question that never will be answered. :)

  • jac

    Purely as a matter of logic, if a deity is defined as having 'beingness' outside of time then the matter of 'before' can no more arise than the one of 'after'.

    • Tiredreadyforbattle

      Is there an " outside of time " ? Is time linear? all inclusive ? is time just a sensory reference ? (motion)

      How would you reference God , being the deity ?

      An entity which creates must be…… ?

      Would a "soul" be a linking phenomena ?

    • DanDenali

      Provided of course your complete understanding is confined to what man can only conceive and perceive as man.

  • Jon

    Since Islam is essentially opposed to Judaism and Christianity, one must consider the fact that it is Satanically inspired. This is the simple truth of the matter. As Nazism was satanically inspired so also is Islam. The heart of the matter is that the "god" of Islam is not god at all but the enemy of the God of the bible. Until this is realized, there is not much hope of understanding what is going on in the middle east and the world at large.

    • Asma

      How can Islam be satanically inspired?
      I mean its a monotheist religion which believes that there is one God.He was not procreated nor can he procreate.There is no one like him.Judaism says exactly the same
      so in this matter the Jews and the Muslims say the same thing but Christian believe Jesus to be a God and a son of God.
      Islam instructs its followers to be truthful, honest,keep fasts,pray five times in a day,give alms and go for pilgrimage if you can afford it at least once in your life.How can any of these good things be inspired by the Satan To any logical mind these things are opposite to satan's way of thinking
      Islam pays great emphasis on the rights of other human beings on you and prohibits you to drink alcohol,commit adultery or to gamble.Islam asks you to look after the poor and the needy,the orphans,the sick ,the old and the infirm.it asks you to abstain from telling lies or cheating.it asks you to seek knowledge.even if it means travelling long distances.It gives women the right to property. I fail to understand how all these things can be equated to satanic practices.

      • Clay Cole

        Islam denies Jesus is the Son of God. One of the test if a person is speaking for God is if they can say Jesus is Lord. If a person can't he is not speaking for God. As you have stated Muslims must state that Mohammad is God's prophet. Since Islam denies the Lordship of Jesus it is not of God.

        With all the evil done in the name of Islam in the past and present it Satan's conterfiet of Christanity.

        • Asma

          I am afraid I don't think this is a logical answer. You have your beliefs and I have mine.You will not take my belief and i will not take your belief .so let your path be for you and mine for me.

      • johnnywood

        "Islam instructs it`s followers to be truthful" but they are permitted to lie to "infidels".

        • Asma

          That is not true

          • Foolster@Juno.com

            Interesting. "I lie to infidels, this statement is false". The original Islamic logic puzzle!

    • gracie

      I have often thought Islam was satanically inspired. How perfect! Satan knows that people will follow a religion. Further more, he knew what to do to control the people who surrounded him. Mainly, practice violent manipulation. Codify this in a religion, mix it in with politics, and you have a brilliant manner of controlling all aspects of peoples lives.. Satan would have know that 1400 years later there would be a politically correct movement that would find itself incapable of stopping a religion that positions itself as a victim. So here we have Satan disguising himself as God and there are fools that are to stupid to realize it.

      • Asma

        I will not answer such baseless logic

    • Guest

      It is diametrically and profoundly opposed to Judaism and Christianity.

  • DanDenali

    What is so hard to understand about the Trinity? Look, do you, as a human consist of three facets: Mind, body, soul? If you take the mind away, does not the body fail? And if you take away the soul, are you still human? What about the body? Yes there is a trinity in what makes ONE human. So then, why is it so hard to understand the trinity of ONE God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit? Every child can understand this. The concept of Trinity is not difficult to understand at all.

    Now, for the arrogant: are you so arrogant think that you as a human can understand the mind of God? Why do you suppose your feeble human mind is capable of conjuring what God is? Science is the creation of man in his attempts to explain the things man cannot explain. So if man can only believe man, does it makes sense that God would take the form of man to talk to them in a way that man can understand? Yet man still does not believe. So miracles are made. Not only does man still NOT believe, he arrogantly mocks and rejects anything beyond himself. As for Mohammad the anti-Christ…he is what he is.

    • Asma

      You are wrong when you claim that prophet Muhammad PBUH was the anti Christ. he actually continued the same message which Christ had conveyed before him with the difference that the followers of Jesus changed his message and made him into a God while Islam will not change and will continue to hold both Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH as human beings who were chosen by Allah to be his prophets sent to guide the man kind. A Muslim reveres all prophets including Prophet Isa(Jesus) and Musa(Moses) before him.

      • Clay Cole

        How can you say that Islam honors Jesus and Mose? I don't need the kind of honor you show.

        • Asma

          I am afraid the honor is for the prophets and not for ordinary people like you and me.

      • Tired,readyforbattle

        Is this based on a credible source ?
        Does this mean muslims revere all the prophets Tamerlane used ?
        Are your statements based on your belief or firsthand knowledge ?

        • Asma

          Every single thing that I am writing is true.The Quran says, we do not differentiate between the prophets,but believe that Muhammad PBUH was the last prophet of God. Are we talking about the central Asian warrior who destroyed Moscow and if so what is the relevance of what you say?please explain.

          • Tiredreadyforbattle

            Yes , he also brought the western and middle east to its knees, using a similar strategy of not being the agressor but killing civilians as a fear enhancer.

          • Asma

            I am sorry I still don't understand how Timur fits in with the divine religion's instruction to revere all prophets of allah.

          • Tired,readyforbattle

            I'm sorry you don't …..

  • ASMA

    I am amazed at the author.Quran authenticates Jesus and his immaculate conception.The Quran elevates Jesus and says he did not face death.The Quran says that we are not supposed to differentiate between prophets and that prophet Muhammad PBUH was the seal on all prophet hood.The Quran refutes that Jesus was literally a son of God ,but says that he was a prophet of God. The Quran also says that Jesus was given miracle of giving life to the dead and healing the sick.
    Islam is the most progressive of all religions.It gave women the right to inherit property before Christianity. The Quran is unaltered from the time of its revelation more than thirteen hundred years ago and will remain so till the day of judgement while the gospels of Bible were written many hundred years after Jesus Christ and even the Christian theologists agree that the content of present day Bible is not the same as when it was revealed as Injeel to Esa AS (Jesus)

    • Clay Cole

      Jesus is either the Son of God, a crazy man or a lair. Therefore, the Quran can not be correct on any count.

    • DanDenali

      Clay just smacked you over the head with logic. When it comes to logic, Islam fails. Better luck next time, I guess.

      • Asma

        By logic too Jesus can be a prophet of God and not the son of God,a crazy man or a lair.

        • Clay Cole

          Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. It is recorded many times by men that heard that from his mouth and were killed by the Roman state for that claim. We know what these men preached not only from the Bible, but from Roman historians that mocked their beliefs. For Mohamid to be correct those men would have had to die for what they knew to be a lie. Men don't die for what they know to be a lie. The evidence is on the side of the Bible. Not on the side of the quran.

          Islam is Satan's conterfiet of Christianity. You may with all your heart believe you are falling God. The objective evidence is that you believe a lie. You are welcome to believe.

          Since the evidence is overwhealming that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, He can not be a prophet. He is either who he claimed to be, the Son of God, a crazy man, or not just a liar he is the most evil man ever to walk the face of the earth.

          Logic therefore dictates that Mohamid is not a prophet of God. He is a crazy man or he is a lair.

          • Asma

            You ar e calling the most revered man in the history of mankind all these nasty things. My prophet has taught me not to insult other religions or their revered people.

          • Clay Cole

            I only speak the truth of the matter. I have given you evidence. You give none.

            We can both be wrong. But we both can't be correct. I have historical evidence of what Jesus said about who He is. You have only claims of one man.

          • Pat

            Mohammad is only revered by Muslims, certainly not by all mankind. Clay did not insult him; he was simply contrasting the claims of Jesus Christ and Mohammad. Mohammad ordered the death of women and killed children; he and Allah command the same today, where the verse of the sword abrogates previous "peaceful" verses. You have said "nasty things" about Jesus, by claiming He is not God, when all the evidence proclaims He is.

          • Asma

            I have great reverence for the prophet Esa as messenger of God. You are reading Islamophobic propaganda. The last prohet PBUH was most kind to women and children. Jesus never said he was son of Allah. Christianity has changed its face. Was church of England not created because of Henry the eighth's wishes? I have not claims of one man,I have word of God on it as revealed in the holy Quran..As I have said before you do not believe in what I believe and I do not believe in what you believe.You are not going to believe in what I believe and I am not going to believe what you believe,so for you is your path and for me is my path

          • myx0mop

            The problem with Islam is that's "my path or we'll cut off your head".

            Otherwise, who'd care what kind of insanity (cause that's what islam obviously is) you believe in?

          • Clay Cole

            I'm sorry you do not have great reverence for Christ. As I wrote before, we both could be wrong with neither Christ or Mohammid being correct. However, one of us is wrong about the Jesus claiming to be the Son of God. You have the claims of one man who didn't even know who was talking to him. Jesus claiming to be the Son of God is backed up by sources outside the Bible. Roman historanians and legal document tell us that the disiples of Christ were killed by the Roman govenment for preaching that Christ taught them that He was the Son of God.

            Mohammid blaspheims Christ with his claims that Christ said he is not the Son of God.

            I would be nice if Musliums would let people go their path. To bad that Christians, Jew, Buddist, Hindus, ect in Musliums controlled countries are second class citizens.

          • Constance

            Asma – Henry the eighth did not start Christianity. He started Protestantism. He wanted a divorce so he could remarry and the Roman Catholic Church said no. He had a few of his friends killed because they wouldn't agree with him only with God. Yes, he never said he was son of Allah, but He did say he was the Son of God!

            So you don't even know when the Church was created by Jesus Christ? You are a very mixed up person.

            If he was so kind, how come he stole the wife of his step-son when he caught her undressed? He was LUSTFUL!

          • Asma

            I merely said that the Church of England came into being due to King Henry the eighth.

          • myx0mop

            I don't think anyone reveres mohammad except for the members of your death cult.

            What's to revere? He was an illiterate bandit, caravan robber and a pedophile. Congratulations on having someone like that as the founder of your "religion", the religion which produces suicidal-genocidal maniacs that blow people up (even your own), fly airplanes into office buildings and cut off people's heads. … some "religion".. sheesh..

          • johnnywood

            The most revered man in history is JESUS. The Bible also teaches Christians not to insult other religions either (Acts 19:37).

          • Asma

            No Islam does not say,"my path or we will cut off your throat"
            It says and I quote,"there is no compulsion in religion"

          • myx0mop

            The reality says just the opposite of what you're selectively quoting. Should I quote the murderous, genocide-inciting, intolerant of anyone else passages from your "holy book"? Just say so… otherwise anyone can look them up themselves. They are a part and parcel of your supremacist "theology", enacted upon by the muslim terrorists around the world every single day.

            As far as this "no compulsion" thing – the many corpses of those who left Islam should speak for themselves.

          • myx0mop

            Islam is not exactly a "religion" in the true sense of that word. It is a political cult, and it's goal is mainly to establish an islamic utopia here, on this earth, Dar-Al-Islam – a global society (Khilafah) where everyone obeys the strict islamic law (Shariah). In that way, Islam is very similar to Nazism with its goal of the Arian Third Reich and Communism with its pursuit of universal "workers' paradise".

            Curiously enough, Muslims were allied with the Nazis during WW2, just like they are allied with the leftists today. Lots there in common. All are totalitarian, murderous and expansionist.

    • Pat

      Sorry, but your claim that the New Testament was written hundreds of years after Jesus Christ is wrong. It is fact that the entire New Testament was written within the first hundred years A.D. There are direct quotes from the Bible in letters since A.D. 100, proving authenticity of the original Text. On the other hand, when the Quran was first written, it was written on Palm leaves, bones, etc. Its authenticity is doubted, especially as there are many types of Quran (in Arabic), with differing "theological" content, which proves corruption of the primary and secondary texts. This has not occurred with the Bible. The Canon of the Bible was widely understood well before A.D. 150. http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/index.h

      Jesus Christ is revealed in the Bible as the Son of God. This does not mean God mated with a woman, but rather in how the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) relate to eachother. It is an Eternal, relational Sonship. They are not three separate gods, but they are God. Jesus Christ declared Himself to be equal with God and the Jews recognised this (John 10:30-33). Jesus is Prophet, Priest and King.

      • Asma

        You have a civilized way about you so i will answer you in detail.Bible was not compiled as the divine revelations were uttered by prophet Esa AS (Jesus). it was compiled at least a hundred years after the prophet .four bibles were amalgamated written by people who had heard from disciples of The prophet.Where as the Quranic verses were preserved straight away on bones ,palm leaves and paper.There is just one version of Quran and not even a word has changed for fourteen hundred years. there is no such thing as the primary and secondary texts.
        You are saying is that trinity is not three different Gods but all three ,the God, Jesus and the holy spirit make up one God. It defy s all logic.why should God be divided into three different forms?There is only one God who created Jesus just as he created Gabriel.

        • johnnywood

          You cannot prove anything you just said.

    • Guest

      Quote:
      while the gospels of Bible were written many hundred years after Jesus Christ
      end quote.

      Incorrect.
      The gospels were written within one century after Christ's resurrection.
      You are obviously not a Christian.

  • DanDenali

    For you religion bashers: do as you will, but know that Jesus never talked about HIS religion, because he didn't have one. Sure he was a Jew by mortal means, but he denounced even their leaders. The deepest things that Jesus spoke of were NOT anything created or imagined by man…least of all that thing called religion. So bash religion all you want. By doing so, you are bashing a man made thing. Jesus said to render Caesar's what is Caesar's. Knock yourself out.

    • Clay Cole

      Interesting that you would mention render to Caesar that what is Caesar's. Christ only dealt with salvation and man's relationship to God. A secular government is completely compatible with if not preferred by Christianity. Islam is complete religious, political and judicial system that is designed to control the every detail of an individual’s life.

    • Constance

      Wait a minute! Jesus told Peter that he would be in charge of his Church (the people). He told them information they needed to know and that the Holy Spirit would be coming to guide them. He didn't leave them with nothing. Or else, why do we have a universal Christian Church called the One, Holy, Apostolic Christian Church? and why is our calendar 2010 in the year of our Lord? He made a pretty big splash on the world and was concerned with people and their salvation. He came to them as a human (even though God) to show His love for us. Frankly, the God of Christianity is more compassionate and caring then Muhammad's god. Christianity's God cares about you and everyone! That alone convinces me Islam is made up. We are made in the image of God. That is why His only Son came as a human. I think it is great. And Asma, I like my Jesus better than yours! He died for all of us – you too!

  • USMCSniper

    All organized religion is a blatantlt dishonest attempt to explain the universe and our place in it as a species. As Mark Twain said: "We are discreet sheep; we wait to see how the drove is going, and then go with the drove. We have two opinions: one private, which we are afraid to express; and another one the one we use which we force ourselves to wear to please the local churvh woman, Mrs. Grundy, until habit makes us comfortable in it, and the custom of often defending it makes us love it, adore it, and forget how pitifully and dishonestly we came by it in the first place."

    • DanDenali

      Religion is man made. Render to Caesar's what is Caesar's.

    • bookimdano

      You're a sad case, USMCSniper. You use the words "love and adore". But in your world, these are meaningless expressions, if I understand you correctly. Meaning in life, ardor, integrity, honor, sympathy, joy are all concepts that are just colored various shades of gray in your world. Everything is relative. There is no true beauty. Your life is the life of an animal seeking only to survive, but for what? I pity you and hope you have a change of heart some day.

      • Tired,readyforbattle

        You might take note that old Sammy Clemens made this reference to the cowardly manner of the social community to " Lets all be civil and polite ".

        As a sniper in the Marines or Army takes down a target, he knows this prevents other deaths, so those saved can enjoy all the beautiful colors and happy experiences and wonderful smells of the city bakeries, flowers, and enjoy freedom and liberty….

        Walk the Walk before you Talk the Talk and enjoy what is real, not the imagined

        Please enjoy your freedoms !

  • Bob Heltman

    Read Dr. Jim Murk's book, "Islam Rising."

    Therein it is described that The Prophet (PBUH) questioned if the voices he heard were from God or demons. M's first and last wives, wise in the ways of domestic tranquility and personal survival, assured M that he was such a good man that of course the voices were from God.

    To have said otherwise might have left M with 14 instead of 16 wives, it might be implied, if you ponder the matter.

  • Whistler

    It was Gertrude Stein and she was talking about Oakland, not LA, when she said "there is no there there".

  • http://www.lifeshaven.net Utopian

    The Christian says, I will sacrifice my life for what I believe, and will not force your will to believe as I (Matt.5:44,45). The muslim says, I will sacrifice your life for what I believe and under threat of death force you to believe as I (Surah 9:5). Certain facts should be kept in mind: 1. Liberty of conscience has no place in Islam. 2. It is a religion promoting 1st degree murder, and therefore sin. 3. All men are not created equal in Islam. 4. Muhammad's visions collapse as fraudulent under the scrutiny of the Bible's 16 guidelines for true prophets, therefore, he is, as the Bible calls him, "the false prophet." 5. Islam's depiction of the angel Gabriel who they claim gave Muhammad the words of God utterly contradicts the words and works of the true Gabriel of the Bible. 6. The father of Arabs (including Muhammad) was Ishmael who worshiped the God of his father Abraham not the god of Muhammad, therefore all Arab muslims dishonor their father standing in open sin while hypocritically claiming their superiority over all men. 7. World War III is Islam vs. the world.

    • Guest

      Islam dictates– submit or die.
      The Christian values self-sacrifice, the Muslim values the sacrifice of other people for his own benefit.
      The two perspectives are diametrically opposed.

  • Asma

    Let me correct your facts.When the prophet PBUH received his first revelation at the age of forty,he had only one wife ,hazrat Khadeeja. He came home and his whole body was shaking with the shock of his encounter with the angel Gibrael . He described the encounter with the angel and the revelation to hazrat Khadeeja who atvance believed in him and was the first convert to Islam and reassured him that he was such a good man and that Allah will be kind to him.

    • Clay Cole

      That makes me feel better about it.

    • Tired,readyforbattle

      Did God write this down ?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/JasonPappas JasonPappas

      My wife is supportive like that also.

    • Foolster41

      But what about the wife-beating, mysogany, murder, and rascism against Jews, Asma. You sure seem happy in your religion, but what about the evil in islam?

      • Asma

        I am a wife and my husband has never beaten me up .I haven't seen Muslim men beat their wives around me. In fact kindness to ones wife is considered simply the best good deed for a Muslim
        When Jewish soldiers murdered humanitarians on the flotilla for food and medicine supplies to Gaza in independent waters,was it an act of Jewish people or the Muslims.
        Islam forbids murder.

        • Clay Cole

          There you go again. Those were not humanitairians on the flotilla. They were Hammas terrorist. You need to learn the law. The block aid of Gaza is legal. The government of Gaza's stated goal is the total disturction of Israel and the Jews. Under international law Israel has the right to blockaid a port controlled by government that has decleard war on it. When the flotilla annouced that they were going to run the block aid that gave Israel the right to stop and board those ships in international waters.

          I'm sure you were ignorant of the facts.

        • myx0mop

          Quote of the Day!

          "Islam forbids murder"
          =======================

          I only wish you'd told that to all those millions murdered in the name of "allah the merciful". Maybe they'd feel better while listening to "Allahu Akbar" at the time of being slaughtered.

          • Clay Cole

            You know someone should have told that trator Major Hasen that Islam forbids murder before he murdered 13 people while shouting "Allahu Akbar."

        • MixMike

          "When Jewish soldiers murdered humanitarians on the flotilla for food and medicine supplies to Gaza in independent waters,was it an act of Jewish people or the Muslims."

          I have an answer for you, it was an act of about 40 or so Muslims who unsuccessfully tried to murder Israel soldiers. There were no "humanitarians" on the top deck of the Mavi Marmara, only the 40 or so members of the terrorist IHH which supports Hamas and its charter to eradicate Jews worldwide (not just in Israel).

          BTW, they still have not found any actual "aid" on the Mavi Marmara, just stacks of cash for Hamas and some cement to build tunnels to smuggle weapons from Egypt.

        • Constance

          Asma – Geert Wilders in Holland says that they have Muslim ghettos and the police are too afraid to go there. Why? Because they follow Sharia and are ALLOWED to beat their wives. Also, they just have to say "I divorce you" three times and you are divorced. Be happy you have a nice husband. One more thing, in Holland they can have as many as four wives because there no one prevents them. Two womean in a courtroom equal one man. Frankly, I don't care when woman had the benefit of having their won property because you are the property of your husband. Do you live in America? Why, when your Sharia law is so supportive of women in Muslim countries (sarcasm)?

          • Asma

            Why are there Muslim ghettos in Holland? This is purely a humanitarian question.

          • Tired,ReadyforBattle

            Ans. Strict adherence to islam………

          • Asma

            Why are there black ghettos In Harlem?
            Strict adherence to Islam does not translate into ghettos. Systems not treating people well translates into ghettos .
            No one lives in ghettos by choice.

          • Tired,ReadyforBattle

            An intentional rejection of anything of white culture ,

          • Asma

            They could live together in seclusion without having to live in ghettos. Ghettos are places where people sidelined by systems live

          • Tired,ReadyforBattle

            Yes , if they really wanted to , follow the "race baiters" .

            Some in ghettos want to better themselves , the great majority don't , saying they are oppressed and victimized , expecting that the opressors take care of them in the grandest of ways , and if we participate we want to rule because we know better…… and like it that way .

            They live with the expectation of a "Prophet" to fit their needs .

            White ghettos are the same

            Do you think God will comply ?

            .

          • Asma

            Well I always say this that the well to do Muslims have their assets and their prophet PBUH,while the only asset of those who are downtrodden is prophet muhammad PBUH whose love is their compensation.

          • Tired,ReadyforBattle

            If you teach people how to fish to feed themselves , what have you got when they refuse to fish ?

          • Asma

            I think like all immigrants,its only a matter of time when they will come out of these Ghettos.

    • myx0mop

      Asma, please educate the ignorant infidels here. How often does a muslim husband have to beat his wives? Is there a rotation schedule or does he beat them all at once?

      One thing that is puzzling.. How can a muslim husband tell which wife he's beating at the moment when all of them look like bee-keepers?

      And, lastly, what is the minimum age of a girl allowed to be molested, as defined in the Koran? Three, six… ? Your "prophet" set an example by marrying a six-year old, but that doesn't mean Islam may not allow for the younger age girls to be molested. Please, educate.

      Thank you.

      • Asma

        First of all Islam does not use the word Infidel for Jewish or Christian people. they are called the people of the book. we believe in Torah and Injeel being divine books revealed to prophets Moses and Jesus.
        Muslim men do not beat their wives and as a matter of fact Muslim women are much more secure in their marital life then their contemporaries of other religions.
        The prophet married Hazrat Aaisha at the age of six, but she lived with her parents until she reached maturity and only then she was sent to live with the prophet.
        The Arab girls matured at an early age and the norms of those times were different to norms in this age.Ayesha was a great historian,a poet as well as a leading scholar of Islam.She knew Islamic jurisprudence and transferred a lot of knowledge to Muslim women and no where in history does she sound like a woman who was molested or unfairly treated.

        • myx0mop

          How wondrous. I just didn't realize that the arabic girls possess these unique physiological characteristics that make them reach maturity and readiness to be molested by old men when they turn NINE years old.

          Another wondrous thing is that you're so proud of your "prophet"'s marrying a girl of six and raping her when she turned nine (mature enough, according to you). I'd say, no one with an iota of common sense would think of that as anything but depravity but, again, I am not a muslim and my standards are different. I happen to have a daughter who is six, and if your "prophet" would propose to her, I'd put a hole in his skull.

          And your statement about muslim men not beating their wives is as true as your statement that the nine dead terrorists on the boat were "peace activists"

          Thank you for the clarification, though.

          • Asma

            Its a fact even in this day and age. The well nourished girls from rich Western countries reach maturity much earlier than their counterparts in the poor countries.

        • Clay Cole

          How can you believe that the Torah and the Bible are devine books and then reject the foundational teaching in them? You can do this and not understand the concept of the Trinity? I think you have selective reasoning.

        • Curious

          Just a few questions for you Asma, if Jews or Christian people are the people of the book, why are they subject to jizya tax in a lot of muslim countries? And do think that a six-year old child is mentally mature to go through marriage? Would you allow your six-year old daughter or niece marry a 54-year old man?

          • Asma

            In my knowledge not a single Muslim country is subjecting its minorities to Jizya? If you have a country in mind which takes Jizya in this day and age let me know?
            No I would not ,but let me tell you that marriage as we understand it didn't take place until Ayesha RA reached maturity and mind you we are talking about 1400 years ago.

        • Constance

          If you are referring to the Holy Bible when you said Injeel, it was not revealed to Jesus. The Holy Spirit of the Advocate promised by Jesus inspired His diciples to write what they wrote and the Church included them as part of the Bible in a council BEFORE anyone ever heard of Islam.

          And the Aytolllah of Iran of TODAY said that girls of nine can be married in this day and age. How come it was not too long ago when I read an article that a Muslim tried to divorce his wife over his cellphone? As a matter of fact, isn't the truth that there are four diffetent interpretations of Sharia Law by MEN? and they can conflict with one another at times? You must have an updated set of laws just for women.

          • Asma

            There are 80 Ayatullahs in Iran. In Iranian law the age of consent is fifteen.I would like you to tell me the name of Ayatullah along with the reference.
            It is very true that men may take advantage of women and do things like this, but if you are interested in sharia law if a divorce is to be valid it has to be repeated three times on three occasion one month apart,during which if the couple decide to reconcile,they can.
            Yes it is true there are four schools of Islamic Jurisprudence for both men and women which in essence are the same,but may differ in minor matters.

    • johnnywood

      The Gabriel of the Bible would never give a prophet of GOD such a message like the one given to Muhammad .

  • guest

    Islam allows murder, deceit, lying, and sexual perversion. In other words, as Jesus said: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father will ye do." Enough said! BUT for the slow of heart…look at the islamic world today. They hate Jews. They hate Christians. They champion terrorism. They teach their children hatred and to be martyers. They say "we love death more than you love life." God is ALL about life – He created it and sustains it. The devil is opposed to God and the taker of life.

    • Asma

      the devil does not take life,but encourages people to deviate from the right path. Life and death are God's domain and not some lame devil's work.

      • myx0mop

        Wow!!! That was almost a straight quote from the "Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey". I guess, great minds think alike..

  • Jazon

    If God is Love then the Koran is not from Him.

    • Asma

      Quran shows by its content that God is all love

      • Clay Cole

        And the rocks said to the Muslium, "A jew is hiding behide me. Come and kill him."

        • Asma

          I would like you to quote me chapter and verse for these words

  • mike

    I like the part where Jesus instructs allah pointing out that allah should already know whether Jesus claimed to be the son of God.

    • johnnywood

      Hear, hear!

  • Ted

    Makes you wonder who, or what, had the most to gain by telling people that Jesus was basically a nobody. I think I know, but I don't want a fatwa on my head.
    And, Whistler, coming from Oakland I can tell you Gertrude was right.

    • Asma

      Being a prophet may seem like being a nobody to you.To me its the highest honour given to a human being by Allah a;mighty

      • Clay Cole

        You are not honoring Christ by denying who he said he was. You and Mohammid dishonor Him by denying His divinity. Christ doesn't need that type of honor or lack thereof.

  • Asma

    Well the Quran says about people like you that their is a seal on your heart so that you cant see the truth. Christians were killed by Romans because the Jewish people convinced them that they were in danger from the followers of the new religion. Jewish people do not believe in either the divinity or prophet hood of Jesus and they don't believe in the prophet hood of Muhammad PBUH. History does not tell us a lot about the child hood or youth of Prophet Esa(Jesus). History has not preserved his true words either. Every aspect of The last prophet's life is preserved and so is the divine revelation revealed to him by gab rial.

    • Clay Cole

      The Romans stated they killed the Christians because the worships Christ and not the Emperior. They killed Jews for the same reason. The Romans hated the Jews. Why do you think the Romans destoried the Temple in 70AD. They would do the Jews no favors.

      You are revealing yourself. It is not pretty. Hate is destories a person. You need to get rid of the hate you have for Jews. You have been taught lies. Learn the truth and it will set you free.

    • Carolina Don

      If "every aspect of that last prophet's life is preserved….", What did he eat? How did he sleep? How many people did he speak to? The Holy Bible says that if all the things that Christ said and did were recorded, the world couldn't hold the books (St. John 21:20)

  • Asma

    your belief to you and my belief to me.

    • Clay Cole

      At least my believe has backing beside the Bible about who Jesus claimed to be. You only have the claims of a man who is not sure who was talking to him.

  • Sonne

    Who cares?

    It's all fantasy. Illiterate sheep herders who had no explanations for fire, lightning or phases of the moon making up fantastic stories.

    Abraham? BS
    Moses? BS (in fact ask any Jewish scholar of History if the Jews were ever in Egypt)
    Jesus? BS
    Mohammad? BS

    • johnnywood

      Sonne? B.S.

      • Clay Cole

        Go easy on him. He is equal opprtuity unbeliever.

    • skipper

      I agree with your view. The Bible is BS, Jesus never existed, hence the Qur'an which mentions him has to be BS as well.

  • Vic

    The answers to the questions are as follows: No, no, no & no! Rember that even Muhammed questioned who was whispering in his ear–>Satanic verses anyone? More important question would be :Who is the god of the Koran, this allah?? He is not the God of the Bible. What are his purposes, why does he hate the Jews? His purpose: to wipe out the unbeliever, first & foremost the Jews, why: they are God's chosen. Grand caliphate? Thinks he's gonna rule over the world! Apparently even Satan hasn't read the Bible. Skip to the end oh great deceiver, it gets really good!

    • Asma

      I feel sorry when comments like this are made. Prophet Muhammad came as a blessing for all man kind.The Quran does not hate the Jews or the Christians.The prophet Muhammad was sent as messenger in land of pagans where infidels worshipped many Gods and were drowned in ignorance .The prophet converted them to a strict monotheist religion with a strict moral and legal code. The Quran says that the Jewish people were God's chosen,but they changed and disobeyed God on many accounts. Therefore God sent Jesus and then Muhammad as his messengers to this earth. may God show you the right path Ameen

      • johnnywood

        The god who sent Muhammad is not the ONE who sent JESUS!

      • Clay Cole

        That is an example of Mohammid's blasphey against Christ. You still don't get the double standard you have.

  • MaxDaddy

    The koran's "corrections" have all of the truth of a politician's categorical denial of the affair….right before the photos come out.

  • Robert17

    Hebrews 11:1

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    • Clay Cole

      How true.

      Christainity and Islam can both be wrong. Christainity and Islam can not both be right. Either way as a Christian a Muslium is going to think I blasphime Mohammid. I say he is not a prophet. He is a fraud. Musliums blashpime my Christ saying He said he is not the Son of God.

  • Jack

    Everyone please stop arguing about which religion is correct and which religion is wrong, or whether religion is mythology or history, because it doesn't matter. Here's the typical troll thesis in a nutshell: Some bad people who called themselves Christians went on a killing spree some 800 years ago. Therefore the descendants of the murdered people are justified in killing the descendants of the murderers 800 years later.

    Even if you accept this retarded conclusion, before you wrap that turban and start hollering "alluhu akbar" you'd first have to trace back your own family tree through about 40 generations then trace back your victim's family tree as well. I find it highly unlikely that the islamofacist will find a match between victim and killer 800 years later. So this trollish rationale also falls flat.

    What kind of person makes a spectacle of abasing himself on the ground five times a day wherever he is? What kind of person starves himself for a month every year? What kind of person agrees with smothering his mother wife and daughter in yards and yards of heavy black cloth in the hottest days of summer? That person has no respect for himself or anyone else. He is a fanatic and therefore capable of any atrocity.

    • Clay Cole

      Well said.

    • lovezion

      GREAT THINKING, JACK

  • Asma

    I will reply to you in the same way as my blessed prophet PBUH replied to any one who was rude or disrespectful to him,"Oh Allah forgive them,they know not what they are saying or doing."He then prayed for their guidance to the true faith and I will do the same.May God help you .
    This is my last post to you, as Your aim is not a logical discussion,but to humiliate me for being a Muslim.I stand proud today that I bore all these derogatory remarks with dignity and grace. I have no hate for you,only love and that is God's own truth.May Allah guide you to the true faith Islam and I thank Allah in all humility for being given a chance to defend my faith and the most blessed of Allah's creations,prophet Muhammad PBUH.

    • Clay Cole

      We havn't tried to humilate you. We just very bluntly pointed out that to Christians Mohammid blasphems Jesus.

      To you I blasphem Mohammid because I stand up for my God.

      You need to stop with the poor me I'm being picked on. When you enter into the market place of ideas you will be challanged.

      • Theopompus Bleys

        I hate to break it to you, but if there is one thing Muslims don't like, it's a free market place of ideas. They like, you know, regulations, they like their ideas subsidised by the (presumably Islamic) government, and the ideas that conflict with theirs they like to see taxed out of existance, if not outright destroyed.

    • Theopompus Bleys

      I could have sworn Jesus, when on the cross, said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." I have to call plagerism, as Jesus said that about 500(+ or -) years before Muhammad was even twinkle in his fathers eye.

      I think it should be asked, though, why was Asma here? It strikes Me as odd that someone who is a Muslim would come across this page, unless, of course, she was looking for it or directed to it. And why would she look for a page that defamed her faith? Obviously to attempt to convert others. And, if she was directed to it, then obviously a group wants to try to convert others. A soft, cyber jihad, if you will.

      And, just as the jihad of Islam inspired the Crusades (which would never have happened, had Islam as a religious political entity never had invaded the sovereign territory of Christian nations) this soft cyber jihad should inspire a cyber crusade. We should go to their websites, and post in their forums. Show them the error of their ways, and if failing to convert them, at least convince them of the folly of Jihad and all the nonsense of their "religion of peace."

    • Tired,ReadyforBattle

      Free will…….. A God given ability….. lets me decide the difference between good and bad, correct and incorrect, Godly and ungodly, evil and Honorable, ignorance and knowledge, right and wrong…….. love and hate……… correct definition and incorrect definition….. truth and untruths…..

      This is for Us , Not our religions and churches and philosophies and rules and laws and leaders , just us Humans……………………………..

  • http://www.bashy.dk Bashy Quraishy

    William Kilpatrick ‘s article; Jesus of Nazareth vs. Jesus of Neverland is a disgrace to the whole sober discussion of comparing religions and the revelations.
    Quran is not a book about the life of Jesus Christ or the Gospels narration of him. To say that lack of detailed description of Jesus in Quran is a proof that Prophet Mohammed wanted to down size Jesus is idiotic. Mohammed did not write Quran because he was illiterate and had no possibility of knowing many events, happenings and personalities before him, which are referred in Quran. By the way, Jesus is one of the most mentioned personalities in Quran, revered and respected.
    Muslims believe that Quran was revealed as a universal message of submission to God as well as to bring the “People of the Book”, namely, the Jews and Christians, back to the path of righteousness after years of pollution of their beautiful faiths.
    While many western scholars are convinced that there is no material and historical proof, over and above Christian Gospel stories that Jesus ever existed, Quran does a great favor to Christianity by not only acknowledging Jesus as one of the mightiest messenger of God but also makes it an article of faith in Islam to accept Christianity as a divine religion.
    Of course there have been many discussions about the contradictions in Gospels, which in fact do cancel the integrity of the Christian faith, Muslims are gracious enough to refrain from such accusations. All Muslims hold Jesus in reverence and respect, which one cannot say about most Christians when it comes to Islam, Quran and Prophet Mohammed. Muslims do not make fun of Christianity, draw caricatures of Jesus, write insultingly about Bible or call it a false book. That is the true Islamic tolerance. Most hard-core Christians can learn a lot from this, if they wish, which I doubt.
    Kind regards
    Bashy Quraishy

    • Clay Cole

      You have the typical Muslim double standard and very strange ideas of tolerance. The New Testement claims Jesus is the Christ. Mohammid in one breath says that it is a holy book and in the other that it is false. Can't be both bud.

      You want Christians to accept Mohammid as a prophet of God while he denies our God. When Mohammid says that Jesus goes out of His way to say he is not God is blasphey to Christians. Mohammids denial of the Lordship of Jesus Christ to a Christian disqualifies him from being a prophet. It makes him a tool of Satan.

    • Clay Cole

      I just love Islamic tolerence. Muslims roit over cartoons. They place death sentences on men who make movies about Islam they don't like and then carry it out. Muslims do not allow churches to built in countries they controll. Muslims do not allow people to own or read a Bible in countries they controll. Islam is the most intoerante of all faiths.

      Now to you as a Muslim I have now blasphemied the prophet and your faith, because I have stated that Mohammid can not be a prophet due to his denying Christ. That is blasphey to you because you accpect Mohammid. Of course there is no country controlled by Christians where you could be place in prison for blasphey against Christ. If I was in a Muslim country and stated what I have I'd be thrown into a deep dark hole never to be seen again.

    • AsISeeThem

      "Muslims do not make fun of Christianity, draw caricatures of Jesus, write insultingly about Bible or call it a false book. That is the true Islamic tolerance. "

      Well–muslims wiped their butts with the pages of the Bible when they took over and occupied in the Church of the Nativity back in 2005.

      Not sure if that counts as "making fun of Christianity," and I guess making the Bible toilet paper is not the same as calling the Bible "a false book."

      But certainly doesn't demonstrate much respect or tolerance.

  • al Kidya

    Face it. Mohammad was creating a cult and wanted himself to be a powerful person. He was a narcissist of the worst kind.
    The cult he created was based on the moon-worshippers. Allah was the male god of these moon worshippers. Mohammad got rid of the rest. He did the same with Judaism and Christianity, wove a little Hindu into the mix as well.
    All of this interweave was meant to convert the hapless, the naive, the agnostics, and atheists of his time.
    When he could not convert them he simply killed them.

  • Bashy Quraishy

    A Chinese philosopher once said; “ Knowledge make a person humble and wise, where as ignorance makes him blissful”.
    After reading disgusting comments from Cole and Kidya directed towards me and also some towards Asma, I have no doubt that anti-Islam propaganda of webs like Front Page had taken hold in the West.
    I also find filthy language of most comments about Islam being below intellectual discussion level and if Jesus came down to put some sense in his followers, most will not listen to him.
    I am sure it is not the fault of individuals but of the media, the Church and populist politicians who have mislead the Western public about Islam. They know that without demonising Islam, Christianity would have no foot to stand on against the practicality and simplicity of Islamic teaching.
    Islam at the moment is the fastest growing religion in the world, without use of power, swords, oppression or threat. In the West alone hundreds of thousands of non-Muslims have converted to Islam because it gives them some spiritual satisfaction and solidarity. If Islam were so bad, as it is presented in the west, why these educated people would follow it.
    Of course there are a tiny minority of idiots among Muslim communities as is the case among all religions. The reason you hear so much about violence committed by Muslims – individuals and groups – is because this is what the western media focuses on. But 1.7 billion people live their lives as most of people in the west do. Taking care of the family, education for their children, having good food, go to movies and work for a better life is some of the issues most Muslims worry about.
    I can bet my old hat, that those who insult Islam – on purpose or out of stupidity – have never met a hard working person with a Muslim background.
    In the end, ask any intelligent person, if Father (God), the Son (Jesus Christ) and Holy Ghost (The spirit) is one and the same thing. Yes, philosophically and spiritually, may be but not in actuality. It goes against the grain of rationality, common sense and science, which the west claims to own. Yes, one can believe what one wants to and no one should question it. On that level, Jesus can be anything to Christians and I say Omen to that but if Muslims and Jews do not believe in Trinity, it is their choice.
    By the way, I am totally non-religious person with Muslim background. So do not shoot me for being, this and that. I am a humanist.
    Kind regards

    Bashy Quraishy

    • Tired,ReadyforBattle

      As a non-religious humanist , you sure seem to be trying to promote islam……….. That is very contradictory ?

      Deception is a lie.

    • Clay Cole

      Bashy,

      You must be a very blissful person. You deny what is happening before your eyes as to the conduct of Muslims compared to the conduct of Christian and Jews. The attacker (Muslims) should be held vastly more accountable than the defender (Christians, Jews, Buddist, Hindus, ect.) for any conflict.

      I don't care that you don't believe in the Trinity. What I'm tried of is Muslims stating things about Christ that Christians consider blasphemious and then acting indignate when called on it.

      As a humanist of Muslim background you may want to put your money where your month. You could start with working to give Jews, Christians, Buddist, Hindus, ect the same right in countries controlled by Muslims, that Mulims have in the west. Until then don't make me laugh with you can believe what you want. The actions of Muslims say I can believe what I want, but you better believe as I do.

    • Clay Cole

      Bashy,

      I know plenty of Muslims. We agree to disgree on many things once they understand my point of veiw. I love your vailed insult that no intelligent person can believe in the Trinity. And Muslims don't insult other religions. You are a piece of work.

      Can you say double standard?

  • Guest

    The idea that the Koran is not historic but the direct unmodified word of Allah is myth. While renovating a mosque in Kuwait, work men found many sacks with hundreds of versions of the Koran. Many, if not most, are in the hands of German scholars–or copies. See "Atlantic Monthly" cover article August 1998 (I think).

  • Guest

    Sorry, It was in Yemen and the article was cover in Jan 1999

    • Asma

      the different versions differ in calligraphy and dialect of Arabic. They are hand written and have a few discrepancies,but what does it prove? A Yemeni scholar some thousand years ago got it wrong or 1.3 billion Muslims got it w rong?

  • http://senatormark4.org SenatorMark4

    WW3 is Islam vs. Free Choice. We will start to demand that recipients of our tax dollars support our freedoms as guaranteed in the First Amendment or they will have to attack us to get our weasely politicians to try and buy peace. That has a limited shelf life and it is already approaching expiration. Arguing from 'The Book' is a pointless waste of time working in their arena. Move to freedom! Demand it at all times as defined in OUR founding documents!

  • Clay Cole

    Let us take Islam at its word. Watch the video
    http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2511.h

  • bashy quraishy

    One reads what, one wants to read. In my comments, I am not trying to promote Islam but promote inter-cultural living. I work on daily basis on the issue of inter-faith co-operation and dialogue. As a human rights activist, I am actively involved in fighting anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. If Jesus, Bible or Christianity were insulted in the same fashion as Judaism and Islam, I would also fight that intolerance. Just go on http://www.bashy.dk and see, what I do.
    Of course having a Muslim background, I know better than most of Front Page commentators that Islam is being demonised on purpose. As a researcher and lecturer, this is what I am trying to explain to those who do not get tired of writing about Islam without knowing ABC of Islam. Today, 23% of the world population is Muslim and to have a peaceful living, it is imperative that the Anglo-Saxon parts of the world learn to give up the arrogant way of treating others. All religions have a message of peace and brotherhood. No religion has a monopoly on truth.
    To Clay Cole, please show me where in Bible, Jesus Christ says; “I am God, Son and the Holy Spirit, rolled in one”. Apostles wrote Gospels after Jesus passed away. His own words in bible are less than one page. It is not I but many bible scholars say. Since there is no mention of Trinity in the earliest Biblical texts, scholars believe that it was necessary to create this concept because without it, Christian Church would not stand. Organised Christianity as we know it today was not invented until the fourth century, after the council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. Many say that the early Christian church thought of Jesus Christ as just a good moral teacher, and did not worship Him until the 4th century when the Trinity and deity of Christ was "invented."
    At least Muslims consider him much more than just a Rabbi who wanted to reform Judaism of that time. Islam call him one of the mightiest messengers of God. It is quite a promotion. Is it not?
    Kind regards

    Bashy Quraishy

    • Clay Cole

      I checked out your site. I don't know what to say. The first thing I see on your web site is you with one of the bigest if not the biggest race baiter in the United States. Not good.

      For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

      17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

      18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

      19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

      20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

      21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    • Clay Cole

      7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
      8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
      9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
      10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
      11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
      12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
      13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

    • Clay Cole

      In these passages Jesus claims to be God and One with the Father. If you want I'll go get the passages of Christ and the Holy Sprit when John the Baptist baptised Him. I don't care if you understand it or believe this. I do. For Mohammid to state the Jesus said something different is blaspehy to a Christian and Mohammid can not be a prophet to a Christian. He rejects Christ. Don't tell me how Mohammid lifts Christ up either. I don't think my wife would like it if I told her I was leaving her for another women, but I'm going to lift up you by sleeping with you when I feel like it.

      As I have wrote before, what bothers me is when Mulims cry because I will state that Mohammid is not a prophet for rather ovious reasons, but fell free to blasphem Christ.

      Now put your money where your mouth is and go work on human rights where there are being violated in the Muslim countries instead of enjoying the freedom of the Western Europe while you trash it.

    • Tired,ReadyforBattle

      Does inter-cultural living with a culture which is sworn to subjugate all others, through any means, such as lying and killing, sound to you like a trusting relationship ?

      Doesn't your accusation of arrogance, sound like arrogance at its peak ?

      Does the saying " The road to hell is paved with details and good intentions " have any bearing on your arguments ?

      Does islam think Jesus was a mighty messenger, but didn't like the message ?

      The demonizing of islam is due solely to it's own actions, to say otherwise is a disregard for the truth………

    • Asma

      Dear Mr Qureshi
      What has upset me about my critiques here is there total lack of acceptance of facts which have been agreed upon by both Christian and Muslim historians alike.
      Also they don't get upset when an agnostic or atheist person on this forum completely deny s the divine messages conveyed through Esa AS(Jesus) and Muhammad AS. If they were not suffering from Islamophobia,they should be more rude to them.
      They can try all their might in using unacceptable language for the most blessed of all people, they cannot reach him.All they show is that these so called civilized people need to attend classes on politeness and manners.
      If they love Jesus so much,they should also follow his teachings.
      I appreciate your logical analysis based on true facts.
      what I fail to understand is that how is Islam against freedom of mankind. I don't think Islam has taken away any of my rights. Yes if freedom is about drinking,gambling ,adultery and homosexuality,then Islam does not allow these things..
      You wrote that apostles wrote Gospels.I want to ask you did apostles / direct disciples of Jesus live for hundred years after Jesus was taken to heavens?
      Also amongst the great prophets , Moses and Muhammad left us with a complete sharia/rule of set laws and a code of conduct, where as Jesus did not leave a sharia /rule of set laws for his followers,so it was much easier to mould Christianity into the European ethos.Its interesting to note that all three religions originated in almost the same area,yet only two of them have retained the middle eastern character and have quite a few similarities where as Christianity appears to be a religion of the west moulded to accommodate western values .
      .

      • Clay Cole

        Asma,

        I love they way you say you don't insult others then insult us. You refuse to give to other the respect you demand for yourself. When called on this you whin and cry that we are mean to you.

        In the above post you insult and attack Christ and his followers while you claim to be the aggrived party. Why don't you watch the videos I posted. I'm sure you'll enjoy them. They are Muslims saying and doing what they truly believe in their hearts when they think no one but Muslims are watching and listening.

      • Clay Cole

        Asma,

        I'm glad you pulled the Islamophia card. To play that card and accusse those that disagree with you of that is a person that has lost the arugement.

        You don't understand how Islam is against freedom. I'll tell you what. You go to Saudi and fight for Christians, Jews, Buddist, Hindus, ect to have the same rights there that Muslims enjoy in the west.

    • Tired,ReadyforBattle

      Mr quarishy and Asma

      Why is it neither one of you try to respond to any of my questions, but insist on degrading Clay Cole and Christianity using "facts" which are almost all questionable ?

      I thank you for your response…

  • Clay Cole

    Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
    5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
    6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

  • Clay Cole

    Bashy,

    You may want to start working on your human rights work with this fellow.
    http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2511.h

  • Clay Cole

    Bashy,

    Here are some folks you may want to start working with to get them to respect human rights. http://www.terrorismawareness.org/news/379/muslim

  • Don

    Why, on a political site, do you insist upon publishing this inane, half-baked, adolescent, ill-conceived, trite display of theological ignorance?

    Who cares?

    We have a country to run and until Jesus sees fit to return from his triumphant 'rise from the dead' he is of no use to us here. Quit trying to resolve political questions via theological comparison.
    Lest I remind you we are a successful nation because we chased the temple mongers out of government.

    • Tired,ReadyforBattle

      Hey Don,

      Go back to your Playstation

  • http://www.bashy.dk Bashy Quraishy

    Normally, I would not get in to an argument with commentators on Front Page because I know what this Web stands for and who is behind it – financially and ideologically.
    I have followed the debate on Front Page about an article; Jesus of Nazareth vs. Jesus of Neverland for several days and being a dedicated person for the cause of inter-cultural living, I did try to explain to some of my Christian fellow human beings, that discussion can and should be on a civilized level. We can always agree and disagree on scriptures, theology, interpretations and understanding of various religions but tone and contents should be sober and respect.
    Unfortunately, most commentators who replied to me and Asma have not lived up to this standard. In my long political life, I have debated with homophobes, Islamophobes, anti-Semites and horrible racists like Skinheads and members of Aryan brotherhood, but the tone of hardcore religious Christians who wrote on this web are way beyond any reasonable criteria. I can see that they are not interested in discussion but name calling, insults and comments based on awaful ignorance, bordering on religious fanaticism.
    I can understand that some of the commentators have cement set opinions and they even do not follow the compassion of Jesus whom they call GOD, Saviour and the Way forward. I have no doubt that if Jesus came back to earth, he would denounce them as he did his earlier followers. Jesus according to Gospels, was a noble, kind and forgiving person. Quran and Islam also honour him.
    Unfortunately, many commentators like Constance, Tired, ReadyforBattle and Clay Cole are mixing religion, politics, scriptures, Jesus Christ and Islam in a big bowl of soup. They are doing this because they have no coherent argument but emotional outbursts, information based on shallow Front Page type of propaganda and that shows that they lack knowledge and wisdom to have a fruitful discussion. That is why, I would end this discussion on my part, by quoting the famous words of Jesus on the cross;
    “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34)
    This says volumes.
    PS; If anyone of you have a concrete question, please send me an e-mail on: bashy@mail.dk
    PS 1: To Asma and any other religious or non-religious Muslim, please do not waste your energy on further discussion on this subject.
    Kind regards
    Bashy Quraishy

    • Asma

      Dear Mr.Quraishy
      If at the end of the day,some of the people who are following this debate see the difference between the manners and courtesy shown by You, Ichy and myself and some of the Non Muslims commentators on Front Page, it will be worth our while to have endured the total misrepresentation of Islam and the most blessed Prophet Muhammad SA (PBUH). Also some one has to come forward and defend our religion and our blessed Prophet(PBUH). Our job is to put forward the true face of Islam and the Prophet and once we have done this, to leave the rest to God Almighty.
      I had decided to discontinue discussion with this forum,but then faced with complete distortion of all facts, decided to answer some of the questions and correct some of the wrong notions of the commentators.
      But I agree with you that given the mindset of these commentators compounded by their ignorance and hate for Islam and Muslims, we cannot have a useful and worthwhile discussion.
      PS: I liked and appreciated your interview in English.
      Yours sincerely
      Asma

      • Tired,ReadyforBattle

        Asma , I am actually pleased you have continued with this debate. Follow that little question mark in your heart that tells you something is wrong somewhere , it is not evil , it's the free will you have been given . It may lead you down a rough road , against churches , against religions (all , including islam ) , against manmade rules and laws , against philosophies , but It will get you too the Creator

        Each one of us is unique, Have faith in yourself

  • Student

    The thing that convinced me of the falsity of Islam is that they would turn heaven or paradise into a whorehouse with the promise of 72 or however many virgins for a jihadi who "sacrifices" himself for the cause. I am not a prude, but there is a time an place for spiritual things and a time and place for earthly things.