Ominous Signals on Libya: A Response to Andrew Sullivan

Andrew Sullivan takes exception to my observations that we are on a fool’s errand in Libya and a dangerous one. The other day I took issue with neo-conservatives who had learned nothing from failed attempts to create Western-style democracies in Muslim cultures. I had pointed to recent experiences in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and Gaza (let alone Turkey) and warned that our military invasion of Libya could lead to the creation of an al-Qaeda aligned totalitarian state. Here is how the Atlantic’s Andrew Sullivan characterized these thoughts:

“It looks as if David Horowitz has left the neocons and become an anti-Islam nationalist; …. he looks at the eruption in the Middle East and wants the dictators back.”

Nice spin Andrew.

First, I am not against people whose religion is Islam. I’m just a pragmatic realist who notes that in fifteen hundred years Islamic cultures have a very poor track record in creating democracies and that the emerging Islamic movements in the Arab Middle East are without exception totalitarian, jihadist and also Jew-hating, women-hating and gay-hating. These realities are apparently not enough to deter Andrew from supporting the exceptionally deceptive aggression, which is being led (sort of) by the dithering amateur in the White House in an audaciously deceptive campaign to put the Libyan rebels in power. As it happens at least one rebel commander already has been identified as a Guantanamo alumni (thank you liberals) and a jihadist veteran of the war in Afghanistan against us. How many more such rebel commanders might there be? Andrew doesn’t know (and neither does his leader) but that does not deter his hair trigger slander of a critic of this misguided war.

Obama’s war has been “authorized” as an effort to establish a “no-fly” zone in Libya to prevent Libyan airstrikes against civilians. But everyone knows this is a lie. The Libyan air force has already been destroyed but the strikes go on because the real agenda is to help the (al-Qaeda?) rebels to win. Despite Obama’s assurance that there would be no American ground troops, there are reports that ground troops are already being sent in. To “protect civilians” does Obama propose to occupy the country and ensure that the rebels do not establish a regime more bloodthirsty than the present one? Is he interested in ensuring that a new regime would not be a terrorist state as in Gaza and Lebanon, or would not ally with al-Qaeda, whom Gaddafi at least opposed? Andrew will of course twist this into a claim that I am pro-Gaddafi. For the record I wish that some brave Libyan or secret agent would kill him. What I do not want to see is the American military invading Libya with no idea of what they are doing or why, which is the position into which the present commander-in-chief – “a classic pragmatic realist conservative” in Andrew’s wonderland – has put them.

The doctrine under which Hillary Clinton persuaded Obama to invade a sovereign country and thereby to disregard his Secretary of Defense (an actual pragmatist on Obama’s ship of state) is called “Responsibility to Protect.” It is the invention of NSC adviser Samantha Power and her patron George Soros. Soros describes the doctrine like this:

“If governments abuse the authority entrusted to them and citizens have no opportunity to correct such abuses, outside interference is justified. By specifying that sovereignty is based on the people, the international community can penetrate nation-states’ borders to protect the rights of citizens.”

The right to “penetrate nation-states’ borders.”  Now where have we heard this excuse for a big power stomp on a little nation before? Czechoslovakia 1938 perhaps? Wasn’t Hitler, by his own lights, protecting the rights of German-speaking citizens at the time? If Obama really means to protect the rights of Libyans he would have to occupy the country for a decade, rewrite its constitution, re-educate its population and institute a democratic educational system. Is that what Sullivan really wants – or has he just not thought this through?

  • Supreme_Galooty

    When the uber-enlightened progressives in America continue to nibble at its very soul like rats gnawing a hole through the hull of the lifeboat; when America cannot gain any sort of reasonable consensus regarding Wisconsin teachers' unions or Arizona's indignities suffered at the hands of illegal marauders; when America cannot balance its own budget or run its own affairs any better than Ralph and Alice, one is compelled to ask the previous question:

    Why are we putting our servicemen at risk ANYWHERE in the world? Any further argument is but idle prattle.

    • Maxie

      Our military no longer fights wars with the intent of crushing an enemy. Instead we now have "Police Action's" (Korea under Truman) and "Nation Building" as in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our military now has the role of doing Social Work in bad neighborhoods: Don't hurt anybody or break anything. This is all an outgrowth of the Blair/Clinton Doctrine of Human Rights trump national sovereignties. Re: Chicago Tribune, "Blair unveils bold intervention doctrine" by Rob Kaiser & Michael McGuire, April 23, 1999.

    • truthin

      And to think that the U.S. govt actually allowed the Supreme Galooty into the intelligence services years ago. One shudders at the thought…….

  • Steeloak

    I think I understand Obama's dithering on Libya. Which side to support? Do I support the Marxist, Terrorist, America hating dictator? Or do I go with the Islamist, Terrorist, America hating Rebels? Such a hard decision – which side to support, when at heart, I love both sides equally. Why couldn't Khaddafi be an American ally like Mubarak, then the choice would be a no brainer.

    • kwg1

      I must be losing my ability to identify sarcasm. I had to read your post twice to see it. That means it was very good. Thanks!

    • Phillip Ley

      Because he is a President without principles, or, for that matter, legitimacy. He has no guiding core beliefs other than in himself and those imparted upon him by his Progressive handlers. Like a never-denied, spoiled child to whom everything has been given (which he, indeed, is), he believes that he can pull off just about any position and come out of any situation looking triumphant. Supreme narcissism at its finest.

  • ivan rusky

    sakashvili must be sitting on a loose stool! wasn't that one of soros' babies? did you see the interview where soros accused barry of losing control? now that really is the pot calling the kettle back. really, it's very easy. just go with the man who isn't marxist!

  • Nohopeusa

    This is no "dithering" president. This man knows what he is doing and what the American conervative does not understand is that America was conquered Nov. 2007 when Obama got the election. America will never recover what it was — that great benevolent power that beside some serious mistakes in judgment, brought much good to the whole world.
    Libya is just little more than setting a precedent before the world that the world, through that organization known as the UN can now directly intervene with deadly force, into Israel by taking sides with the palestinians which it already has a long history of doing.

    • USMCSniper

      Another idiot with his lips pressed to the idiot Obama's hemmoroids. Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said al qaeda jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime. In an interview with the Italian newspaper Il Sole 24 Ore, Mr al-Hasidi admitted that he had recruited "around 25" men from the Derna area in eastern Libya to fight against coalition troops in Iraq. Some of them, he said, are "today are on the front lines in Adjabiya".

    • kwg1

      "America will never recover what it was — that great benevolent power that beside some serious mistakes in judgment, brought much good to the whole world."

      Then why blog about it? Are you that defeated there is nothing left for you to work for? I for one will continue to do as both Herman Melville and Kahn said and did: " To the last I grapple with thee! No. No, you can't get away. From hell's heart, I stab at thee. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee."

      • Phillip Ley

        You've got to love that line by Ricardo Montalban. It truly is the best. And I agree with you. I think America was wounded, and I think Obama knows what he is doing (as he is told to). His own agenda exists to satisfy his narcissistic needs. He is allowed to indulge those as long as he serves his masters well. He possesses no core beliefs, other than in himself. He gets what he wants as long as he performs the puppet dance. If we keep fighting, trying to awaken the narcosed masses, we might turn this tide back. But, if we lose, we die knowing (and his handlers will ensure that we do, indeed, die) that we fought the good fight with honor.

      • Nohopeusa

        Kwg1, thanks for replying and I do appreciate your fighting spirit. You must be a senior citizen, or near to that noble age group. I'll die with my feet firmly planted in what are the best traditions of my ancestors who faught in the French Indian wars, the Revolutionary war, War of 1812, WW1 and WW2 (I omit the Civil War because we were fighting among ourselves). The problem is, as I see it, I am in a decreasing minority for my age group is dying off and the younger men and women have no idea what I am even talking about. That is why there is no hope usa. Obama won. Things will never return to the stability that the anglo saxon people brought to the world.

  • Phillip Galey

    "First, I am not against people whose religion is Islam." — how much mayhem would you have to see, before acknowledging that, the best evidence manifests Islam not as a religion, but as a criminal complex?

    And to Libya—remember this: All war concerns money—all in the world which need be done is, Gaddafi to break loose with his 150t of gold to the market, in order to help shore up the EURO, and he, show himself a player in the monetary system of that part of the world—instead of grabbing all the gold he can, and hauling it off to his private cache, . . .

    • Kim Bruce

      I’m with Phillip.
      Islam is more like a Mafia organization than a religion. It encourages a criminal element for the most part. Take “jizya” as one example. Jizya is like Mafia protection fees imposed on businesses only in this case it is imposed on all non-believers.
      The greater jihad is only used by the worshippers until they have totally saturated a country. If there is opposition to their ideology they use the more violent lesser jihad to get their way.
      Islam has no nation. There is only the nation of Islam.

  • Amused

    Face the FACTS – we NEVER should have got involved ,Period . This is more about Europes oil supply than anything else . If Gaddafi was slaughtering his people with air power , or if he will do it with his army , artillery and tanks , what is the difference ? Where was our CIA ? They couldn't assess properly , the rebels are incapable of prevailing even with Libya's Air force knocked out ? So we go from a "few days " to a few weeks to a few months . And we see that the rebels need to be armed . Sooner or later it will be boots on the ground . Just whose , not yet clear . Neo-con Gingrich screeched early and when ther fool Obama acted changed his tune 180 degrees . Fools ALL .

  • JosephWiess

    Impeach the freakin' president and lets get our country back. I say, let them tear each other apart, and let Israel go in and clean up the mess afterwards.

    • kwg1

      JosephWiess, impeachment will never happen the votes will never be there, either in the House or the Senate. It is nice to think about but we have no one to rely on or expect it will ever happen, so why do we keep bringing the issue up. Doing so doesn't make me feel any better or change the situation. By the time we got here by a real change in Congress and the Senate in 2012, I would hope that the Islamacist in Chief would be dealt a lethal political blow and we need not be concerned.

      • Phillip Ley

        I agree. I truly believe his illegitimacy will be revealed at an opportune moment in order to create a Constitutional crisis, to discredit the founding document, and thereby the government.

  • Chezwick_Mac

    Perhaps Sullivan should return to his favorite 'cause celebre', shouting to the world from his rooftop that Sarah Palin's son Trig is actually her grand-son. He's very deep.

  • William Cook

    Everyone wishes Horowitz to be wrong. Oh what a wonderful world it would be! Horowitz 1, Sullivan 0.

    • Rob

      An accurate statement.

      It's easy to expect the worst since the middle east has never produced its own democracy. But freedom isn't going to come out of it if we allow madmen to bomb their own people.

      Al Qaeda's there too. Won't we be able to gather intel by being involved in this conflict?

  • arthura

    Replying to nohopeusa……The apparent question to ask then is when will the U.N. send troops into the U.S. to eventually enforce sharia law..???

  • umustbkidding

    "A man should look for what is, not what he thinks it should be" Albert Einstein

    • kwg1

      That is great in science, but not for working towards a goal which you want others to pick up on. "There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why. I dream of things that never were, and ask why not. There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that never were, and ask 'Why not?' Robert F. Kennedy

  • umustbkidding

    Man's nature is what it has always been and will be. We will never change and that is what David see's and he is correct to be pragmatic.

    Those who choose a violent religion to follow are not going to ever turn the other cheek. It is not what they believe in.

  • ThePittsurghSteeler

    David Horowitz is absolutely right here. Obama's problem is NOT that he can't make
    up his mind which side to support(as WE know them to both be repulsive). Rather,
    Obama knows full well that the creation of a no-fly zone, with ground troops almost
    certain to follow; supports the Al-Qaeda backed rebels, as David explains.

    I believe that this was Obama's intention from the beginning. His secondary goal
    is to use up the resources of the U.S. military in as frustrating and futile a way as
    possible; to get us bogged down in another situation in which we can't possibly win.
    Obama should be impeached ASAP. We can't wait another two years for a better
    leader to be elected U.S. President.

    • claspur

      Good comment.
      ….and don't even bother with impeachment hearings… drag him out of DC by his big ears, right now.

    • truthin

      Yea, that was his plan: instigate the Spring Rage throughout the Middle East, and get the U.S. involved. Moriarty theory of History, AGAIN. LOL LOL

  • geoplaten

    You guys need to re-read nohopeusa's comment. You are dead wrong about him and his post.

    As for Sullivan, he's one sick puppy, completely out of touch with reality. He hates American conservatism more than he loves his own self. He'd rather see a gay man stoned in the Middle East than have a conservative be right about the world today.

    • claspur

      Once was enough muddle…. thanks anyway.

  • Ayatollah Ghilemini

    I disagree with both Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Horowitz.

    This is not rare in the former but rare with the latter.

    We must ask the first question- how shall we use the great power our nation wields?

    In the modern age, our society is unable to stand by and watch civilians get slaughtered and we don't want our sons dying on the battlefield to establish new dictatorships to replace old ones. We can and should have a bedrock principle that when nations turn the full might of their military against their own defenseless civilians that the black planes and cruise missiles get sent. I want to live in a world where dictators look to the skies with fear. They can oppress their people but if they kill them indiscriminately, their regime is toast.

    Our military is great at killing things and breaking them. It is my belief that after busting up a few Khadafys, the dictators of the world will learn their limits.

    To those who wring their hands and fear that what will come next will be worse, I do not fear them. We have new dictators looking up with fear or, and here is the optimistic view of things, that, over time, the people whose lives we protect, will come to the inevitable conclusion that representative government is the only way to secure their rights as individuals. Yes their will be turmoil and disruption but do you want to be on the side of the Tunisian cart vendor who set himself on fire rather than live one more day without hope or endless cycle of dictators that most of the world endures?

    Even an avowed enemy like the Muslim Brotherhood, if they unfortunately come to power, will find themselves staring down a mob of two million citizens if they can't produce anything other than ongoing tyranny. Democracy's cat is out of the bag; the tens of millions of expat Muslims carry back word of a better life in the west that stems directly from better government. It would help to have a titan of freedom rallying people to freedom's call rather than our oblivious commander in chief but, in the happiest of all accidents, the world sees the fact our nation could elect an African American of Islamic descent and ignores what Obama says and focuses just on what America has done. For all our flaws and awful leadership, the rest of the world just wishes they even had a choice.

    • kwg1

      Those under Islam want a choice? You need to re think this. The choice they are opting for in every case is to get to "FULL SHARIA LAW" and away from the worldly dictators. They want "ALLAH" to rule them under SHARIA. They have no concept of freedom as we know it and never will unless taught it, and that is not likely!

    • Chezwick_Mac

      GHELEMENI: "We must ask the first question- how shall we use the great power our nation wields?"

      RESPONSE: By balancing our budget, paying down our debt, and NOT going bankrupt. Can't do that by playing the world's policeman. In other words, our "great power" is built on borrowed Chinese money.

      GHILEMENI: "We can and should have a bedrock principle that when nations turn the full might of their military against their own defenseless civilians that the black planes and cruise missiles get sent."

      RESPONSE: And a North Korean nuclear response on the crowded metropolises of Seoul and Tokyo (and perhaps Seattle), killing tens of millions…wouldn't bother you in the least? Oh, shall we make an exception for nuclear-armed nations? What a powerful ANTI-proliferation tool THAT would be!

      GHILEMENI: "Even an avowed enemy like the Muslim Brotherhood, if they unfortunately come to power, will find themselves staring down a mob of two million citizens if they can't produce anything other than ongoing tyranny."

      RESPONSE: Iran has been pretty successful for 32 years, firing automatic weapons indiscriminately into those mobs…and maintaining their grip on power.

      GHILEMEBI: "…the tens of millions of expat Muslims carry back word of a better life in the west that stems directly from better government."

      RESPONSE: Or perhaps they'll carry back "horror" stories of rampant sexual licentiousness, homosexuality, gender-bending, female independence and defiance…all of which should certainly "endear" their puritanical compatriots to the "wonders" of democracy.

      You don't know who you're dealing with.

    • socal

      Dude, If youre so damn interested in this nation being a cop to the whole world,may I suggest you sign your sorry ass up to become an officer. Our kids did not volunteer to serve this nation to become fodder for the UN or any other progressive humanitarian cause that has no direct impact to the welfare of this country. Getting involved in Arab civil wars is not a reason to send our kids into harms way! As far as sending cruise missiles to rain down on the worlds despots, I'll remind you that these instruments cost a hell of a lot of money and we are BROKE as a nation. We cant afford to be wasting our financial resources on frivolous misadventures that you suggest our country be involved in! Who do suggest be the words Star Chamber, the UN.?

    • Rick

      OK, I read this guys post and looked up to see it had a minus 3 rating which kinda surprised me. Granted, some of his words and claims were on the harsh side but still they didn't ring false to me, just possibly brutal honesty. So now I am asking, and I swear to whoever I am asking honestly, why did people give him a minus rating, what is it that I am missing or not understanding about Ayatollah's post? Please don't tell me it was just because of his posting 'handle'!

  • mafug mamun

    To get Cheap Car Transport Rates from nationwide auto shipping companies! Visit now-
    Motorcycle Shipping Rates

  • Phillip Ley

    Why would we want to stop it? Why do we care, except to be concerned with Israel's security? And that, sir, is the ONLY reason to care.

  • conservative4ever

    To nohopeusa – I completely agree with you, our Ditherer-in-Chief knows exactly what he's doing. He is trying to bring this country to its knees, on many levels. I disagree with you saying we will not be able to restore our country. I think if we get Obama out in '12 and get some true fiscal conservatives in, it can be turned around.

    I've been thinking about our Spectator-in-Chief's logic in all this. It finally hit me the other day, and why did it take me so long to see it?

    Decides to send the bust of Churchill back to England. Why? They're pro-America.
    He throws Israel under the bus at one of his first U.N. meeting. Why? Pro-America.
    Iran's last election when the people protested and he said nothing. Why? They're anti-America.
    Egypt preotests, Murburak must go. Why? Pro-America.
    Goes to Brazil and pledges lots of money for drilling when he won't let us drill. Why? Anti-America.
    Goes into Libya. This one is a little harder. I would say Ghaddafi is more pro- than anti-America, all his rambling hours-long speeches notwithstanding.

    Anyone else see a pattern here?

    • claspur

      nohopeusa.. well, it was a muddled comment for me to read.

      You are much more accurate in your comment, 4ever…. and I agree totally.
      I've seen this happening from him for six months or less, into his time in office.
      president Soetoro, to date, hasn't done one thing positve for this nation, or the majority its people.

      He's a Clear and Present danger to the United States, and needs to be tossed from office.

      • conservative4ever

        Clear and present danger, without a doubt. Nothing positive at all for our great United States. I never, ever thought we would come to this.

        You say you could tell what he was doing within 6 or less months of him taking office. What got me was what he said right before the election: "In five days we will fundamentally transform the United States of America".

        We will FUNDAMENTALLY TRANSFORM the U.S.of A.

        Fundamentally transform……when I heard that it sent chills down my spine. I had a bad feeling about him from the first time I laid eyes on him. And I've learned, over the years, to listen to that bad feeling. Because it's always, always, right. I predicted, in August 2009 to a (Democrat) friend there would be rioting in the streets because of this man. I said we would wake up one morning and we would be the newest third-world country and freedom would be dead. So far I have seen nor heard anything to prove me wrong.

        God bless America.

        • claspur

          I watched him say the transforming America and I got that same chill.
          More like a maddening, than a chill.
          I was on to what this guy was about in '07.
          His actions took, really started to stick-out by six months into his usurped office to me.
          Forgot what I was watching with my father, and what Obama was saying at the time? He's pretty low key, but said, " I don't know if we're going to get out of this?" (remembered that)
          Remembered this too over the decades… I was born in '56, and watched Oswald get shot in the garage with my Dad, on our 20" B&W… he-turning to me saying, "This nation is Effed." (only not spelled that way)
          Sure don't believe I'd ever heard that world before? *sigh

          • conservative4ever

            <DIV>I have to admit I hadn't really heard of Obama till the campaign. Do you live in Illinois? Sorry, didn't mean to get personal, just know he was a Senator.</DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>I was born in “57, so we're about the same age. I remember Oswald getting shot saw in B/W too. What really sticks in my mind, though, was JFK's assasination. When that happened I was 2 months shy of turning 7. I was watching it on tv and when Walter Cronkite pulled his glasses off and wiped the tears from his eyes that was it. That was it for me and Uncle Walter. After that I only watched him to see what the opposition was saying, like MSNBC today. I didn't know until later how much of a leftist Cronkite really was.</DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Did you see the speech last night? What a boatload of absolutely nothing except lies. We are the majority funder of the evil U.N., we are the majority force of NATO, and NATO is commanded by an American. But we're not leading the charge…….lies upon lies with a big side of lies. Oh, and lest we forget, more lies!</DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>—

          • claspur

            My folks let me stay pretty politically naive growing-up. I was at school when JFK was shot… that's always been kind-of a fog of a day for me.
            Heard of Obama while he was in Illinois, while a senator, from news out of Chicago and when Oprah could infiltrate my space, in one way or another.(not her show either)
            Never paid much attention to Cronkite either. He got more libtarded with age, I believe?
            JFK was the peoples' president…. my parents, repubs, they were really upset.
            What I think about these days-is, when can Jack stop spinning in his grave with-what these anti-Americans have done to his democrat party?
            I hope to heck He and Bobby are kicking the crapola out of brother Ted on a perpetually daily basis… wherever they are?

          • conservative4ever

            <DIV>My parents were not really that political, just conservative. The thing is, I've been a news and politics junkie since I was little. My parents never really said too much about the JFK assasination, but I had other relatives that hung up thehalf-dollar (whatever it was) on the wall. My question was WHY? </DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>(only child, what can I say?)</DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>—

          • claspur

            It was a half dollar. Thinking if that was the first coin they first started using copper in? Relatives hung it(them) on the wall out of respect, I'd guess?

          • claspur

            Just looked this up…

            Off to watch the Blackhawks play Boston now… night.

  • BigPat7

    As a Conservative/Libertarian, registered Republican for voting ease, WE DO NOT BELONG IN LIBYA. I see we have leftie extremists protesting this WAR In Libya from Los Angeles last weekend. Please don't confuse me with them – I keep short hair if not on haircut strike, and the only 'protests' I've done was some Tax Day Tea Party events, to monmitor with camera for security purposes – Tea Party Patriots RULE!

    We arein Libya solely at the WHIM of the UN, Arab League, and a very misguided Barack Hussein Obama.

    First of all, the UN needs to pack up and get out of New York, permanently!

    Secondly, the Arab League needs to pay our expenses this exercise in toto.

    Obama declares WAR on Libya, and same day disappears down to Rio for Spring Break with family! Do us all a favor, and stay there!!!

    Then we need to look at the makeup of the "rebels" in Libya that we are "helping" – we seem to have a good amount who are al-Qaeda who fought against Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan. Go figure – and good move Mr President.

    Now we have NATO taking over command of WAR In Libya, and I'm sure we'll have all US troops involved reporting to the Canadian NATO commander over there, announcement should be tomorrow.

    This is all WRONG! And based on this, we do not belong there at all!

    • truthin

      The U.N. was created BY the U.S. The land was donated to the U.N. by Rockefeller. Anyone who says 'Get the U.S. out of the U.N.' is basically repeating the jackass idiocy of the John Birch society, and fail to realize that the U.N. has been a valuable tool for extending the so-called interests of the U.S. To believe otherwise is folly.

      • coyote3

        Looking back, I am not so sure the John Birch society had it "all" wrong.

    • truthin

      Seems to me that Bush took more vacations than any president in American History

  • Piera Prister

    Mr. Horowitz is right. It is not enough to wage war, we have the moral obbligation to educate people to democracy.
    Muslim protesters who are now taking the streets are furious because of their deprivation, their poverty, their illiteracy. While these bloodthirsty regimes ammassed immense wealth only for themselves, and indoctrinated them in the mosque to kill Christians and Jews. Nobody cares if in 2010 Abu Mazen in Ramallah dedicates a statue to Dalal Mughabi -a female terrorist who killed 37 civilians in Israel- with fanfara and among applauding school children. For Obama the fault is Netanyahu's. Now, Israel is under the attack of bombs, missiles and thugs who killed even a few month old baby. Under Obama administration there is no leadership.

    • truthin

      Then Horowitz should have known that before screaming at all the people who opposed the war in Iraq, a war that he mysteriously opposes now, inexplicably… When he's not blowing hard, he's blowing in the wind…. And yet you all follow him, inexplicably…

  • truthin

    OK, David is simply lying here. He and Robert Spencer had Ismlamists. Funny that he should try to deny it now. Funny, too, that David speaks of the 'dithering amateur' in the White House given the president Obama replaced. At the very least, Bush got 'played' by an idiot in Iraq who supposedly invented the WMD lie. Bush/Cheney had the masternmind of 9/11 cornered in Tora Bora and lost him. Why can't David use acceptable language instead of crude playground bully language to get his point across? It's amazing Sullivan would even bother to refute David, given the low level of intellectual discourse on FPM.

    • coyote3

      Bush for all of his liberal faults, did get congressional authorization to do what he did. That is required, regardless of U.N. resolutions, unless the U.S. is attacked, or there is an immediate threat to the U.S. We were not attacked by Libya, and the immediate threat was not even an articulated reason for this.

      • truthin

        Oh right, the lies contocted to justify Shock and Awe. Ha Ha

        • coyote3

          No one has ever "proved" he lied. In fact, that was a lie. I thought Bush was "stupid". Well, if he was able to fool all those "enlightened" congressmen, then that is really funny. Yeah, real stupid. All I am saying is what he did was constitutional. Now, maybe what congress did in delegating the authority wasn't, but that is debatable. This action does not even conform to the war powers act. Tell me, why are we doing this again? I have not heard one reason that passes constitutional muster. Indeed, "humanitarian"? That is not justification, in and of itself my maricon cabron.

        • claspur

          Here ya go goofball…just to name a few that signed-on to Iraq because they believed Saddam had WMD.

  • Supreme_Galooty

    To nohopeusa:

    The nature of the world is such that things rarely go backwards. America is unique in history in that it spawned the most unlikely of creatures: The Cowboy. I met a working cowboy at Spanish Springs Ranch in the remote N.E. corner of California. He had just returned from a two year working excursion in Europe where he worked with Spanish, French, Basque, Italian, and even German cowboys. His observation was that they were all competent enough, but the big difference was that when hurt, the American cowboy dusted himself off and went right back to work. The Euro cowboys, to a man, sat out for awhile licking their wounds.

  • Supreme_Galooty

    The American cowboy is endowed with Thumos, and he does not take kindly to people directing his life – even if they're paying his wages. That Americanist spirit of Thumos is alive and well, and it is lurking below the surface in secretaries, railroaders, carpenters, bankers, even a few school teachers here and there. They are pitted against the American Statist who reveres order, security, and believes that only good can come of governmental regulation.

    The Soul of America is the stake; the battle lines have been drawn; and now amidst the noise, the dust, the confusion, the future of this country is being wrought.

    • truthin

      Funny that you should attack government regulation on the 100th anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire the needlessly killed 146. The ensuing safety regulations have no doubt saved hundreds of thousands of lives since…

      • Supreme_Galooty

        Your comment is off point, superfluous to the content and context of the conversation, has no humour in it whatsoever, and is generally bereft of any positive contribution. In another setting, the "Triangle Shirtwaist" fire may have some interest, but in this context it is a red herring and, typical of liberal "thinking," serves only to change the subject in the hope of promoting disordered thinking amongst others.

        Go practice your buffoonery elsewhere, piojo.

        • coyote3

          I called hims a lot worse than that.

  • James123

    I really don't get you people. Obama is doing exactly what every single person on this website wanted him to do since the uprising began. Every single person of this damn site was in favour of bombing Libya, up until the exact moment when Obama did it.
    This has nothing to do with Libya, this has nothing to do with Gadhafi or the rebels or the Middle East. You all just hate Obama because he's black. Just admit you all want Obama impeached and linched and hung because youre all a bunch of goddamn racists.

    • claspur

      It was a NO-Fly Zone. <

      …and if you recall, Brackets Soetoro wasn't even for that until His women lead him kicking and screaming to the fight.

  • Amused

    Again ….Neo-cons , make up your minds …before Obama made a move you whined , he wasn't doing anything , now that he made a move , you whine about that . Sounds like a bunch of Newt Gingrichs . Another "stellar " performance by our Central Incompetence Agency .Why didn't we know that more than a No Fly Zone would be necessarry ? That the rebels were ill-equipped to face Gadaffy's Army ?

    • claspur

      The only move Brackets made was to South America…. Hillbillary and Samantha Power (Cass Sunstein's wife) got Barry's ME soccer ball kicked, so to speak, while he went down to Brazil to dot the 'I's for George Soros' oil drilling ventures with the Brazillian government.

      • Amused

        Instead of spewing Right/Blog rhetoric , try focusing on the FACT that we are now engaged with Blood and Treasure in THREE muslim countries , where we are facilitating our ENEMIES . We should be standing back and allowing them to kill each other , instead we are putting our brave young men and women in peril , while politicians and their sycophants speak out of both sides of their mouths for the sake of partisan politics . PATHETIC !

        • claspur

          Surprise surprise…you already got a thumbs down, and one more from me. lol

          • Amused

            lol…that simply means there is more than one dullard around here.

  • LenP

    To James123 and those of a like mind: none of us hates Obama because of the color of his skin. You liberals will never get that! Why? Because anyone who disagrees with you and your messiahs must be stupid and a racist. But the simple truth is that we detest the color of Obama's politics – and yours James. Marxists like the two of you have been plotting to destroy America for decades and we are finally going to stop you in 2012 and send you back to the planet from which you came with your Progressive Pods.

    • Zivkov3000

      No not everyone who opposes Obama is stupid and racist. Only everyone on this website is a stupid racist, because this is a stupid racist website.
      If the people on this website actually did disagree with Obama then i'd be fine with that. The problem is that the people on this website don't disagree with Obama. Everyone on this website was in favour of bombing Libya last week, Obama agreed, he thought it was a good idea to bomb Libya too. But somehow, everyone here still hates Obama. Even though everyone here agrees with Obama on everything, somehow they still hate him, they still hate him obsessively, fanatically, hysterically. If Obama adopted everyone of your positions, if he agreed with you on absolutely everything, you would still hate the man, you would still hate him with every fiber of your being, because you sir are a racist, and you are simply too stupid to know it.

      • Supreme_Galooty

        Don't be so obviously obtuse. Everyone here hates YOU because you are stupid. Well, maybe they LOVE you because you are so lame.

    • claspur

      Don't waste your time talking the race issue with these idiots anymore.
      They all know that that is a dead plank for them to spout from anymore.
      It's about Soetoro's political ideology… always has been, in my book.

    • Amused

      LOLOLOL…,.yea with Michelle Bachman ??? The philandering double-speak Newt ? What a pathetic joke ! But you DO HATE , and that puts you at a serious disadvantage .It blinds you to the FACT , that aside from Obamacare , the Republicans would be doing the exact same thing in foreign policy that the one you hate is doing .
      The only chance Republicans have in 2012 is Romney . Better hope that there is enough brains in your party to figure that out .Lets see if you can get it right this time around.

  • Petra

    Hello James. Obama is half white. :)

    • claspur

      He's half black too… problem is-though, Brackets is 100% marxist and an enemy of The United States of America.

  • Amused

    LOL…great " rebuttal " Petra ….reeeeeal genuine ..lolololol .

  • Reason_For_Life

    "If Obama really means to protect the rights of Libyans he would have to occupy the country for a decade, rewrite its constitution, re-educate its population and institute a democratic educational system. Is that what Sullivan really wants – or has he just not thought this through?"

    Islamic Middle East culture has no soil in which to plant the tree of liberty. The culture is profoundly anti-individualist in a way that few Americans can fathom. Imagine the most mindless cultist that you ever met in America. In the Middle East he would fit right in, a bit relaxed in his beliefs by Middle Eastern standards perhaps, but acceptably submissive.

    This kind of world is made for dictators. No other government is imaginable.

    Do you seriously propose to re-educate these people over ten years when they and their ancestors have been taught to submit for one hundred times that long by sheiks, mullahs, caliphs and ayatollahs? Submission is the essence of Islam. Submission has been the power that has bound people to their tribes for more than twelve centuries.

    Democracy is the principle that nothing matters except what 51% of people want. There are no rights that cannot be voted out of existence. There is no crime too horrible so long as it is committed with the backing of a majority. There is no objection to 51% of the people enslaving the other 49%. Put this system into a culture based on submission and the result will be a tyrant that makes Idi Amin look like Thomas Jefferson.

    Christians did not flee Iraq under Saddam Hussein. They are running for their lives under the new, US supported "democratic" regime.

    The Iraqi civil war broke out between Shiites and Sunnis within days of the unveiling of the new Iraqi constitution that contained two deadly clauses. The first, that no law may contradict the undisputed tenets of Islam and the second, that no law may contradict the principles of democracy.

    Disputes over Islam is what Sunnis and Shia have engaged in for more than a thousand years. The Sunnis fully understood that the constitution was a death sentence for them since they comprised only 20% of the population. What saved Iraq from immediate mass slaughter was the invasion by foreign terrorists whose presence united the Iraqis against an "external" foe combined with the power of the American military to kill the invading terrorists.

    If the goal of the Iraq war was to establish a free constitutional republic in Iraq then that war constitutes the greatest defeat that the US has ever suffered.

    This is the future of democracy in Libya – brutal civil war ending with a supreme mullah who will slaughter the non conformists. There will be no freedom because no one wants freedom in Libya. They want a system to which all people will submit.

  • QSuzy

    When the choice is between Islam & the dictator, the choice should always be the dictator. It's extremely unfortunate that Robert Gates didn't have the same common-sense advice for WBush. I can't help thinking that many on the right are simply playing politics…..that if a GOP prez went into Libya, they'd be all for it. Ditto for many 'anti-war' Democrats who were against Bush's wars and for Obama's war in Libya.

  • conservative4ever

    James123, I did not favor going into Libya, going into Iraq, did not believe Hussein had WMD's, did not think it was a "necessary and just war". It was an outrage. What say you?

  • Mairen

    In US, color discremanation is still on air despite the fact that a black President is already on the highest authority. But why should we descriminate them? They are also a part of this world right? They have also the right to be respected by everybody else. And that what we should think all the time. That the love of God doesn't depend on our color or race..He created us fairly..

  • 080

    The essential question is: which side are the Russians on? Do they support Qhadaffi or the opposition? If it's Qhadaffi then probably we should be supporting the opposition and vice versa. Without knowing I would bet that they support the opposition. They are already objecting to our trying to oust Qhaddafi It should be obvious that they will do anything to get us kicked out of the Middle East.

  • joel

    I believe this Libya action is penance for Rwanda and..count them,not enough fingers!
    This action was justified on humanitarian reasons alone. I am not a Soros fan,and neither is Bill O'Reilly,who also agrees that a nation that still has a soul cannot let people be slaughtered! This is in our national interest,our moral national interest. This is about the only thing I agree with the Pres on,and I will not vote for any conservative who will not save human lives when she/he is able to. Watch out Assad,any of you out there..if we see you raising your sword,we will come after you…