Egypt Comes Out for Hamas

Robert Spencer is the director of Jihad Watch and author of the New York Times bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Arab Winter Comes to America: The Truth About the War We're In, is now available.


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Then there was the delirious welcome accorded the Muslim Brotherhood’s spiritual father, the Egyptian Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi. In February one of the biggest and most enthusiastic crowds of the entire Egyptian revolution thronged to Cairo’s Tahrir Square to hear Qaradawi, who outdoes even the most Hitlerian Islamic clerics in his Jew-hatred and bloodlust. Former London Mayor Ken Livingstone welcomed Qaradawi to the city in 2004 and praised him repeatedly; during that visit Qaradawi explained to the BBC that suicide attacks against Israelis did not actually constitute suicide at all, but rather “martyrdom in the name of God.” In January 2009, during a Friday sermon broadcast on Al Jazeera, he prayed that Allah would kill all the Jews:  “Oh Allah, take this oppressive, Jewish, Zionist band of people.  Oh Allah, do not spare a single one of them.  Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them, down to the very last one.”  He also declared: “Throughout history, Allah has imposed upon the people [Jews] who would punish them for their corruption. The last punishment was carried out by Hitler.”

That is the man who, by the record of the welcome Egyptians gave him in Tahrir Square that day, best embodies the spirit of the “Arab Spring.”

And so last week the Tunisian Muslim Brotherhood leader Rachid Ghannouchi was much more perspicacious than Western analysts when he predicted that the “Arab Spring” would lead to the destruction of Israel. For every day brings new advances toward power in Egypt by the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic supremacist groups allied with it. Once they finally attain that power, there is no indication whatsoever that they have any inclination to keep the peace with Israel that has prevailed, however uneasily, for the last thirty years; indeed, there is abundant indication to the contrary.

The Rafah crossing is just the beginning. Watch for more belligerence from Egypt toward Israel, and more Egyptian moves that redound to the benefit of Hamas. After all, Hamas styles itself in its charter as the Muslim Brotherhood for Palestine; why wouldn’t its sister organization in Egypt be interested in lending it a helping hand? And as it does so, it inches the Middle East and the world ever closer to the inevitable conflagration.

 

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  • Chezwick_mac

    The one good thing about the fall of Mubarak and other local despots is that the narrative of "US-backed regimes" being the foremost reason for the disaffection and radicalization of the Arab/Muslim "street" will be exposed for the fiction that it has always been. We're now witnessing the natural proclivities of the Arab/Muslim collective psyche…greater religiosity and intensified hatred of the "other".

    • Guest

      Unlike Israeli Jews, who treat Brown people like one of them…..Pwahahahahah

  • http://www.andilinks.com/index.htm andilinks

    Rafah crossing: loose nukes, how many, how soon?

  • whitesheperd

    Arab Spring….Obama thinks it's a soap….Israel should never have given back Sinai after Eygpt invaded Israel………never give back captured land from a defeated enemy again.

    • Fred Dawes

      Arab spring that was a joke

    • Guest

      Amen!!!!!!!!!

      I wish we can turn the clock back!

      Being impossible, at least one hope the western world will wake up.

      But even this is an illusion!

  • jacob

    I was floored yesterday learning from somebody interviewed by FOX NEWS's Neil
    Cavuto, that a significant portion of the billions given EGYPT by good old USA,
    were for the purpose of its keeping the "Peace" signed 30 years ago between
    SADAT and BEGIN …and of course, with MUBARAK gone and this Muslim Spring
    "springing up", we can see this "peace" won't hold any longer…..

    So now, EGYPT takes off the mask in its dealings with HAMAS, as I don't believe
    even under MUBARAK it truly stopped weaponry from reaching GAZA…
    The Israeli leaders will wait for either the other shoe to fall or repeat a CAST LEAD operation which didn't affect HAMAS at all …

    Is another 1967 in the horizon or rather a Yom Kippur war in the making ???

    • Guest

      It will be worse then both!

      US have given money, weapons and have trained the palestinians to fight the IDF for years!!!!!!!!

  • YOSFA

    so i assume that the Rafah crossing is just for passing weapons? and Israel does take care of the inhabitants of Gaza in terms of humanitarian and basic survival needs as it is the democratic liberal representation of the west that you have so longed for to be the aspiration of the revolution in Egypt?

    I won’t claim you are backed by any lobby or have a hatred mongering agenda, but I urge you to do a little research on the daily life of the Gazans, and maybe then you can see why would they be so radicalized by Hamas for that matter,

    • http://theshellman.com Stephen Rohaty

      Hamas is just carrying out the mandates of the koran. How many times does it say, "Kill the Jews"? THAT sounds like a hatred mongering agenda to me. Yes, Hamas will now be importing more food and medicines into Gaza. They'd better, since they can no longer blame the Jews from keeping supplies out.

    • Arth

      My friend, you are attempting to have a fact-based conversation with a pack of rabbid Zionazis. Care to predict the outcome? I will give you the correct answers 2 lines down:

      Howls and Moos

      • WildJew

        Maybe it is because your views are not based on fact or truth but on raw emotion.

    • Birddog

      Your assumption is wrong. This is a distraction so weapons can be slithered into Gaza elsewhere under the border.

    • WildJew

      Can you present some credible research on the daily life of the Gazans? Remember, Israel forcibly upooted every single Jew from Gaza and Gush Katif, Gaza, August 2004. Israel's southern towns and cities were met with thousands of rockets from Gaza. Gazans destroyed and looted greenhouses that were left to help their economy. Hamas launched their rockets from the remaining concrete foundations to homes and synagogues. Palestinian Muslims elected Hamas to represent them, January 2006 in what President George W. Bush and Sec. of State Rice called open and fair elections. Hamas charter calls for the obliteration of Israel and the Jews. These are a people who want peace with the Jews? I also address my questions and statements to "Arth" above.

    • Guest

      You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You are a useful idiot and an ignoramus.

      Israel has been giving food, medicine and fuel to Gaza plus have taken sick people in to Israel for treatment.

      The only thing they try to keep out is weapons and material to create weapons from.

      The misery of the people in Gaza are caused by their leadership, the Hamas, on purpose so they have a reason to hate the Jews and Israel!

      • Guest

        There is a lot of garbage on you tube and more!!!!!!!!

        It is a perfect platform for the Arab Propaganda and the lies they have been spreading for 100 years and more.

        As I said you are a useful Idiot and an ignoramus!

    • ObamaYoMoma

      Just curious…at the same time that you use lies and libels to smear Israel to help facilitate another mass genocidal holocaust of Jews to feed your obsession and because apparently one wasn’t enough to pacify your bloodlust for Jewish blood, can you point to just one Muslim majority country anywhere in the world where the non-Muhammadan citizens living there aren’t violently oppressed and systematically persecuted when not outright slaughtered altogether and where they are not forbidden from building new houses of worship and from practicing their respective religions openly? Also, why do you only single out Jewish unbelievers for your unhinged bigotry, when it is clear that Muslims are waging jihad against any and all unbelievers around the world in too many places to name? I mean are you so consumed and obsessed by Jew hatred that you are unaware that Muslims divide the world between believers and unbelievers and then apply one set of rules and ethics for believers and a completely different set of rules and ethics for unbelievers? Indeed, exactly how narrow-minded can you be? Again…just curious.

  • Rifleman

    Good. That way the 'palis' have someplace to run when the Israelis have enough of the 'palis'' terror war, and run them out of gaza. Then they can sit in squalid refugee camps just across the border and watch the Israelis turn Gaza from a sh*thole to a beautiful Med resort paradise.

  • http://theshellman.com Stephen Rohaty

    I love the mask the "fighter" in the photo is wearing. It's certainly not the old fashioned wrap around his grandfather wore, the one that kept slipping down. THIS one is mass produced. This poor schmuck doesn't realize just how far he's slipped into interdependent modern times. Bet he even owns a cell phone, or wishes he can afford one. Pity that he won't live to see the major changes coming to his, and ALL, Eastern society in the very near future.

  • FeldwebelWolfenstool

    The iSlamic world just keeps marching backwards.

  • aspacia

    It will not be just Egypt. When there is unrest in a land, wars usually follow to rally the people around the flag, an what better war than one against Israel.

    Syria, Libya, Tunisia, Lebanon, and many others will join in attacking Israel. What fools. Never put an adversary in a corner because they have nothing to lose and will fight to every last child, and they will probably win again.

    • Fred Dawes

      but who is behind it?

  • http://www.worldthinktank.net Lance

    I knew this was going to happen. It figures.

    • Fred Dawes

      i think we all knew it to.

      • Toa

        Yup…and I'll bet Obama is one happy guy about it.

  • Steve Chavez

    IS ISRAEL BEING PAINTED INTO A CORNER? Now that they are being surrounded by real radical elements, and then being ridiculed and blamed for being the major problem by Obama and the Democrats, and FAKE JEWS among them, and FAKE Jew supporters, Israel is feeling more isolated! They hear Obama wanting to negotiate with Iran and then wanting Israel to sit down at the peace table with Iran's proxies: Hamas and Hezbollah, "PALESTINES AL-QAEDA!"

    Iran is getting closer to building A NUKE and they will use it against Israel. To them, that's the ultimate in suicide bombing and they will be praised by millions, including by Americans, for accomplishing their ultimate goal. DO YOU THINK ISRAEL WILL ALLOW THIS? When they take action, they will again be criticized, including by Obama, who "wasn't told of the operation" and probably for the same reasons we didn't tip of the Pakistani of the Osama operation! "Can't trust them!"

    So to American Jews: Do you or do you not support Israel and every action that they deem necessary for their survival? If so, why then are you Democrats when that Party actively participates in her destruction?

  • Arth

    Wow… this place smells like the Zionist latrine LOL.

    • EVABeliever

      It reminds you of your house. You were born to white trash in a trailer park and you are living the life of your father (if you can actually identify him from the many johns your mother slept with). People like you are cowards and worthless as human beings. You contribute nothing to society and your hate controls everything you do. The only shame is if you have you kids and help ruin their lives with your hate.
      Gazan Arabs do not suffer for anything. They actually have better lives than you.

      • SpiritOf1683

        If he was worthless, it would be a vast improvement. Arth's existence represents one of the biggest wastes of Jewish-invented vaccines and medicines I can think of.

    • aspacia

      And who better than you knows best the smell of a latrine; oh, I understand, latrines remind you of home.

    • Tim Bus

      Is that different than a mohammedan latrine,
      or a social activist latrine,
      or a peace and justice latrine.

      I'm just asking the expert.

  • StephenD

    Bob Dylan wrote the song "Neighborhood Bully" which is an accurate portrait of how the world perceives Israel. The problem with this is it is completely backwards. Ask this dolt ARTH commenting here, Name one other country that has allowed so called "Palestinians" to become citizens of their country. The answer is ONLY ISRAEL. So, before you run your mouth about how "good" the Arab "Brothers" are, have them put their money where their mouth is.

  • WilliamJamesWard

    Israel is in a small place and surrounded by enemies who would be affraid
    to attack because of American support. With a Muslim Brotherhood backed
    Democratic Party and President subservient to Islam the choices for Israel
    go in one direction or another. Dissolve and spread back into a hostile world
    or attack without reservations in the aim of destroying every Islmic enemy
    nation. Islam will be in ashes, destroyed forever. Arab hate can have it's day
    going up in flames, if there are any survivors they will live in a world without
    the Koran and it's messages of murder and villany.

    If Islam attacks Israel other than the eat a little here eat a little there, they
    bring on the end of themselves and that will releive the world of it's most
    degenerate populations, people who worship evil itself and damn themselves.

    Death and destruction, slavery and abuse is all Islam has to offer, time for it to
    go to hell. It is not the time of cowards, traitors and false friends, duplicitious
    entreaties nor lying politicians but true words and true intentions supporting
    righteous actions……………………………………….William

  • Anamah

    What have you done Mr President?

  • Fred Dawes

    Well Yes! its a muslim country, what did you think it would come out for? and all muslims want jihad and hate jews what don't you understand that one fact? and guys obama will help Hamas. we can Only hope the IDF Attacks soon.

  • Guest

    God help us all!!!!!!!!

    I am afraid that this WILL end up that way.

  • YOSFA

    @Stephen Rohaty
    …and Israel is carrying out the mandate of the Old Testament, which is not exactly a peace loving scripture,
    They have every right to blame Israel (and Egypt) for the miserable conditions they have been subjected to, it might actually have worked for Hamas politically to promote their case against Israel, but that does not change the fact that those two states have caused the deterioration of the humanitarian conditions of the Gazans,

    @Arth
    I don’t care about their Howls and Moos, I am just frustrated that the Egyptian revolution being rebranded as ‘Muslims trying to kill Jews’ – this is very frustrating.

    @Birddog
    My assumption is right, more food and medicines, and of course more weapons, which is a fair trade for me,

    • MixMChess

      "They have every right to blame Israel (and Egypt) for the miserable conditions they have been subjected to, it might actually have worked for Hamas politically to promote their case against Israel, but that does not change the fact that those two states have caused the deterioration of the humanitarian conditions of the Gazans"

      This is nonsense. The Gazans only have themselves and Hamas to blame for their "so-called" miserable conditions. First, its important to point out that the blockade of Gaza didn't start until 2007 after Hamas started incessantly firing rockets at Israeli civilians and launching terror attacks against Israel from Gaza. Second, the Gazans voted in Hamas, a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and worldwide Jewry – they knew full well what they were getting themselves into. Lastly, Israel has provided literally millions in tons in humanitarian supplies and aid to the Gazans.

    • MixMChess

      "My assumption is right, more food and medicines, and of course more weapons, which is a fair trade for me,"

      More weapons? Explain this to me… why do Palestinians need more weapons to murder Jews?

      • YOSFA

        to have deterrence capability like Hezbollah, which ultimately will balance the powers in the lands and lead to a Palestinian state, its not about killing Jews, they could be any ethnicity who lives there occupying their lands, they just happen to be Jews, what difference does it make when someone takes your property? Would you insist on asking a trespasser what is the color of his underpants? You just want him off your property, so does the Palestinians,

        • MixMChess

          What? Why does Hamas need deterrence capability? Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005. There is not one Jew remaining to supposedly "occupy" Gaza. Likewise, Israel completely withdrew from S. Lebanon in 2000. Again, no Jews to "occupy" that land. So who are they trying to remove again?

          The fact is, for terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah the goal is KILLING Jews. Have you read the Hamas charter? Did you know it calls for the destruction of Israel and worldwide Jewry (just like their brethren the Nazis!).

          Similarly, Hezbollah has as one of its primary goals NOT the liberation of S. Lebanon, but the annihilation of the State of Israel. According to Hezbollah's Deputy-General, Na'im Qasim, the struggle against Israel is a core belief of Hezbollah and the central rationale of Hezbollah's existence. Just like Hamas and the Nazis, Hezbollah has declared it will kill every last Jew on earth: "It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth."

          • YOSFA

            deterence against possible future occupations – yes Israel have withdrawn from Gaza and Southern Lebanon (except a small part: shebaa farms), but that does not mean that they would not attack it or take it again, Israel is the Middle East leader in agression wars – which they label preemptive military action,

            yes Hamas and Hezbollah definitely would love to destroy Israel, they are radical groups for sure,

          • MixMChess

            "but that does not mean that they would not attack it or take it again,"

            This is utter nonsense and you know it. Israel has no desire to take back Gaza or any other territory it has withdrawn from. The only reason it was in Gaza and S. Lebanon for so long was to ensure security of Israel. This has been highlighted by the fact that immediately when Israel withdrew from both territories, terrorist attacks resumed against Israel. Why is Hamas still attacking Israel despite the fact that Israel completely withdrew from the territory in 2005? Only because their goal is to destroy all of Israel.

            "Israel is the Middle East leader in agression wars – which they label preemptive military action,"

            Bullcrap and you know it. All of the wars involving Israel were initiated by invading Arab armies (1948, 1967, 1973) and terrorist attacks initiated against Israel (1982, 1988, 2000, 2006, 2009).

  • YOSFA

    @WildJew
    I don’t know what news coverage you get, but I would not be surprised if its Fox, which is being cashed for the lobbyists to brainwash viewers from having a realistic approach to the whole issue,
    You have pointed that Hamas has fired rockets against Synagogues and Homes, well, they don’t have access to guided missiles, no way they have the ability to aim their home made rockets to a specific target, unlike Israel which clearly does and has targeted homes, orphanages and human shelters, to me, this puts them in the same line with war crimes of the 20th century that Jews have been on the forefront of being its victims,

    @Guest
    Yes Israel has provided treatment to life threatening emergency situations, it has allowed access to fuel, food and medicines, but you making it sound like its them being generous or doing the Gazans a favor? No human should be denied their basic life support needs at any point, if they have pity allowed some supplies at a certain time they have also denied the same most of the time, these are people who live there and I wonder if you would have the same view if it was you or someone you care for who has been living there,

    • ObamaYoMoma

      You shouldn’t smoke crack and post at the same time because it exposes your fanatically obsessed Jew hating Nazi like bigotry for the entire world to see. You are also very obviously incredibly mentally deranged as well. Anyway, anyone can easily see that you are totally obsessed with inciting hatred and violence against Israel to help facilitate another mass genocidal holocaust of Jews because one wasn’t enough to quench your desire for Jewish blood. Now if any of your garbage were true, you would have a point, but since none of what you say is even remotely true, it reveals your true intentions. Have a nice day.

      • YOSFA

        What are you scared? don't quit on me now! i was still in my human suit and have not turned into demon like yet! you are missing all the fun…

    • aspacia

      Munich, Entebbe, the numerous rocket attacks after Israel withdrew from Gaza. The Fogel Family. http://www.google.com/search?q=Achille+Lauro&…

      The list of Muslim incitement against Jews is huge. Read MEMRI, UN Watch, Palestinian Media Watch.

      Truly read and understand valid history, the Qu'ran, hadiths and how most Islamic religious leaders interpret their religious texts. After a minimum of 6 months of research, perhaps come back and post with educated adults.

      • YOSFA

        Same could be said about the Old Testament – the basis of which Jews claim a historic right in Palestine…

        before asking me to do research please read my posts and try to let it wallow around your head for a bit, perhaps you could learn something, and then come back and tell me what you think what are my believes, and whether it is legitimate or perhaps not,

        i am only here because the author is trying to re-brand the revolution in Egypt as an attempt to kill Jews and destroy Israel, it is not which is why i am here posting, please don’t patronize me,

        • aspacia

          LOL, the same can be said for the lands where many humans now reside. SO TFW?

          Jews purchased the land from the Ottoman Turks, not Muslim Arabs. Regardless of perpetual attacks by the jealous Muslims, Jews have built a modern state on a sliver of land and Muslims are jealous because they live in a sewer.

          The "Arab Spring" will be the foundation for another attempted genocide against Israel and all Jews–MARK ME ON THIS ONE–Israeli Jews will sacrifice every man, woman, and child to survive and may radiate the entire Middle-East rather than let Muslims destroy them.

          Tolerant people only tolerate the tolerant.

          • YOSFA

            purchased? this is genuinely hilarious!! Purchased from whom? Walmart?
            you need some history lessons my friend, i'll hand over some keywords to help you out:

            -sultan abd al-hamid ii
            -Palestine British mandate
            -balfour declaration
            -haganah stern gang
            -king David hotel bombing
            -Israel annexation

            believe me Arabs are not jealous, if anything Israel is in the corner and will continue to be an isolated state with all its collective mass psychological disorders, it has been placed in the wrong place for the wrong reasons by the wrong people and with all the wrong means for a state to exist naturally, nobody wants that to be his country of choice – and if its is the silver state that everybody is jealous over, then why don't go live there, i hear the weather is beautiful with all the missiles flying over the skyline…truly beautiful.

          • MixMChess

            Early Zionists legally bought land from willing Arab landowners, often for exorbitant prices. Of the 463,000 acres that Jews owned in 1947, they had bought 387,500 from Arabs (84%), 30,000 acres from various churches and received 45,000 from the British Mandate authorities.

            Large landowners who sold land to Zionists included the mayors of Gaza, Jerusalem and Jaffa, As'ad el-Shuqeiri (father of the first PLO Chairman) and members of the Muslim Supreme Council. Even King Abdullah leased land to Jews.

            In fact, the Jewish National Fund (JNF) reported on the "constant stream of Arab offers to sell," and that it was "flooded…with more offers than it could accommodate" in the 1930's.

            John Hope Simpson reported that the Jews "paid high prices for the land, and in addition, they paid to certain occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay."

            Besides, most of the land Zionists bought and settled was unpopulated. The Peel Commission Report of 1937 found that "Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was bought." Even anti-Israel historian Benny Morris admits that in "the 1920's most purchases were of large, relatively empty, mostly uncultivated tracts from absentee effendis (landlords)…."

            Few Palestinians were uprooted from their land by the Zionist purchases. As a policy, Zionists tried to buy land that would not displace the local population. For example, David Ben Gurion stated "[U]nder no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them… only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement should we offer to buy his land at an appropriate price." And the JNF's highest priority was buying "the best and largest possible land area available from a cultivability standpoint with the fewest number of owners. Acquiring land with the fewest number of fellaheen occupants was also a priority…."

            In fact, as Benny Morris admits only "several thousand' families were displaced following land sales to Jews between the 1880'sand the late 1930's." Which as Alan Dershowitz points out was a "fraction of the number of people displaced by the Egyptian construction of the Aswan Dam." In fact, many of the Palestinians who were uprooted from their land were not displaced by Zionists but by outside social and economic forces that had nothing to do with Zionists.

          • YOSFA

            these acres are roughly 1800 sq KM, with Israel area @ 22000 sq KM, the purchases represent around 8% of total 'official' area of Israel, of course this does not include the cancer-like settlements and occupied Palestinian territories, the Golan heights and Shebaa Farms,

            I am not going to mention the nature of these purchases of which was the least with ill intentions,

            can you explain from where did the other 92% of Israel came from? and whether owning lands justifies declaring and independent state on it? for example, if i bought Texas would i be able to announce it's independence and secede from the US government?

            Furthermore would that also justefies the new born state to hinder any attempts by those who it was taken away from them to form their own sovereign land which is theirs in the first place?

          • MixMChess

            You're forgetting that the vast majority of the the land at the time wasn't owned by Jews or Arabs but was owned and controlled by the British Mandate. Look at the original partition plan in 1947 which were drawn based on demographics.

            Overall, the Jewish State was to be comprised of roughly 5,500 square miles and the population was to be 538,000 Jews and 397,000 Arabs. The Arab State was to be 4,500 square miles with a population of 804,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews. Though the Jews were allotted more total land, the majority (over 60%) of that land was vacant and inhospitable desert (Negev).

          • aspacia

            No joke. The land was never Arab, it was Turkish for 900 or so years.

          • YOSFA

            The British mandate is an occupation, the British were an empire back then remember? what gives them any right to handover these lands (that they don't own or rightfully control) to a foreign population?

          • MixMChess

            Um, its called international law. The same international law that Palestinians now base their statehood on, the same international law that all the modern Arab/Islamic countries base their statehood on.

          • YOSFA

            Well either the international law (which i am no expert in) is flawed or it has been used on the wrong foundation,

            I just can't get my head around emigrants having their own state handed over by the occupation and at the same time those who lived there for centuries denied their lands to this day.

          • MixMChess

            "I am not going to mention the nature of these purchases of which was the least with ill intentions,"

            Nonsense, go reread my comment. First, Jews paid well above market value for the land purchases. Second, Jews made sure that the purchases would not uproot or displace local Arabs. In fact, only a handful of Arabs were displaced due to Jewish purchases, and even many of those "displaced" were due to economic factors that had nothing to do with the Zionists.

          • YOSFA

            Being above market price that is paid is exactly why it was ill intended purchases, it was because the zionist agenda were not looking for land for placement or economical reasons, it was made to control most of the land and declare their future state.

          • MixMChess

            You're an idiot. Obviously Jews purchased the land so that they could build a future state. My point is that there was never a large amount of Arabs who were displaced because of these purchases. Read your history.

          • YOSFA

            Thank you for your personal comment – you are a class act.

            …and the right of return for the Palestinian refugees? isn't that a fundamental part of the international law? i am not going to debate how they became refugees because obviously it will not go anywhere, but now that they are, would Israel the democratic liberal law abiding peace loving state allow their return?

          • MixMChess

            There is no right of return under international law. Israel is under no obligation morally or legally to allow the so-called refugees to return. Furthermore, recall that Israel absorbed over 850,000 Jewish refugees (compared with the 400,000 so-called Palestinian refugees) from Arab lands after 1948.

          • MixMChess

            "can you explain from where did the other 92% of Israel came from? and whether owning lands justifies declaring and independent state on it? for example, if i bought Texas would i be able to announce it's independence and secede from the US government?"

            Its called international law. When you own the land you can do whatever you want with it. The difference is that Israel wasn't seceding from anything. Recall there was never any state or country their. It had originally been Ottoman territory, then it became British territory. Once the British left, they opened the door for independent states to be formed. That is the history of the entire middle-east and many post-colonial countries in Asia and Africa.

            The fact remains, had the Arabs accepted partition in 1947 and accepted peace they would be celebrating Palestine's 64th birthday.

          • YOSFA

            if you apply the same logic then there were never Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon or any country in the Middle East,

            Back then these 'countries' were simply out occupied either by the British, French and Italian empires, under occupation means there is no country because all belong to the colonial invaders.

            it was not a swath of land that just fallen out of the space…it was a place called Palestine that had a genuine population for over 15 centuries, it was the jewish emigrants whom had fallen from other parts of the world, i don't know how to make this any clearer: Arabs = 15 centuries, Jewish settlers = 100 years or so.

          • MixMChess

            "if you apply the same logic then there were never Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon or any country in the Middle East,"

            That's exactly what I've been saying, there was no Iraq, Syria, Lebanon or any other country in the Middle East. They were all carved up and became countries during the post-colonial era. Seriously read some history before coming into the conversation.

          • YOSFA

            you are confusing statehood with population existence, the whole region was part of successive Islamic caliphates, it was a confederacy of nations, not being independent by choice or by force does not mean there has not been a cultural and demographical existence of those who lived there and identified themselves as syrians, egytptians or iraqis,

            the formation of states has to be based on who have been occupied, not have immigrated to, the british occupied Palestine, then must return it to Palestinians, just as they did with Egypt, India, Pakistan and Jordan.

          • MixMChess

            There was never any Palestinian culture or demographic existence. The only indigenous population to the Holy Land were the Jews.

          • YOSFA

            you are contradicting yourself, didn't you state in your previous comments that there was never Arabs displaced? Israeli gangs never committed atrocities? partition plan to be based on concentrations of Jew and Palestinian populous? now they do not even exist?

            i am starting to doubt whether you are misinformed or trying to misinform others.

            it's very difficult to wipe out a whole population from history in the digital age, i mean, the Palestinians of today didn't just fall from the sky?

          • MixMChess

            You're not paying attention to my comments. My point is there was no "Palestinian" culture. They were simply Arabs from surrounding areas (Egypt, Jordan, Syria) that settled in Israel in the 19th century. An Arab living in Israel retained his Egpytian, Jordanian, Syrian or Arab-home culture.

            Even the Palestinians admit this. Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein stated as such as early as 1977:

            "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism."

          • YOSFA

            Do you even know what you are talking about? i have been to Jordan and Lebanon, parts of my family are Syrinas, and i have lived, worked and interacted with all demographics of the Middle East for the past 20 years of my life: they are COMPLETELY differnet than each other, different dialects, different cuisine, different cultural references, the only thing they share are borders.

          • MixMChess

            Exactly, and the Palestinians don't have their own united culture, they are made up of Syrians, Lebanese and Jordanians. You basically proved my point that there is no such thing as a Palestinian, just an Arab from one of the surrounding areas.

          • MixMChess

            "the formation of states has to be based on who have been occupied, not have immigrated to, the british occupied Palestine, then must return it to Palestinians, just as they did with Egypt, India, Pakistan and Jordan."

            First of all, you're making up your own rules for how international law should operate – not stating how it actually does operate. Second, the name of the region was called Palestine but there was no independent country called Palestine. Further, there were no idigeneous Arab Palestinians. Did you know that up until 1948 it was the JEWS who were referred to as Palestinians? So by your logic the British should have returned all of Israel and TransJordan to the Jews.

          • YOSFA

            read my early comments, don't mix statehood which none of the middle east countries had because of the colonial conquest with actual demographic existence, oh wait – but there were no demographics other than jews in Palestine and jews fought 'imaginary' enemies.

          • MixMChess

            "it was not a swath of land that just fallen out of the space…it was a place called Palestine that had a genuine population for over 15 centuries, it was the jewish emigrants whom had fallen from other parts of the world, i don't know how to make this any clearer: Arabs = 15 centuries, Jewish settlers = 100 years or so."

            Wrong, the term Palestine came from the Romans in the 1st century CE as an insult to the Jews they just conquered. They renamed the land as Palestine based on the biblical Philistine culture which had been long extinct.

            Even after the Romans conquered Israel, Jews maintained a continuous presence in the area. Jews predated the Arabs and have maintained a continuous presence in the land for over 3,000 years.

          • YOSFA

            agree, but a constant presence which is welcomed does not mean that the majority of the population across that period would be overturned and denied their lands, it is their land guys, which was occupied and then turned over to the Jewish settlers (well part of it).

            there are many minorities in the world who have maintained a constant presence, applying your logic would mean that the US is turned to the Indians, Turkey turned to the Moguls, Australia turned to the Melanesians.

          • MixMChess

            "there are many minorities in the world who have maintained a constant presence, applying your logic would mean that the US is turned to the Indians, Turkey turned to the Moguls, Australia turned to the Melanesians."

            You need to learn your history. The partition gave Jews their own state in the Jewish majority areas.

          • YOSFA

            of which it was not theirs- they were aliens to the land remember? they were not Palestine nationals, unlike the genuine Jewish and Palestinian indigenous population who has existed over there for centuries. Please read my comments and try to grasp what i am arguing.

          • MixMChess

            Jews are intrinsically linked to the land of Israel through their culture. They are not aliens in their own land. And again, you're ignoring the fact that Jews legally acquired tenant-free and vacant lands where they made up the majority.

          • YOSFA

            intrinsically linked to the land of Israel as in Arabs are not? what would centuries of existense in the land account for then?

          • MixMChess

            "Furthermore would that also justefies the new born state to hinder any attempts by those who it was taken away from them to form their own sovereign land which is theirs in the first place? "

            The land of Israel never belonged to the Arabs. The Arabs had a chance for statehood side-by-side with Israel in 1947 and they refused. Israel again offered peace to the Arabs in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 1988, 1993, 2000, 2005, 2006 and so on… each time the Palestinians refuse a state of their own. They just want to destroy Israel and kill Jews. Its really that simple.

          • YOSFA

            again another stark and total denial of the indigenous people who had lived there for centuries. Arabs had these lands for centuries, where did the Palestinian come from? Nicaragua?

            Being uninhabited does not mean its not their land, should they have placed a person every sq KM of the desert to prove they do exist and its their land? c'mon..

          • MixMChess

            "again another stark and total denial of the indigenous people who had lived there for centuries. Arabs had these lands for centuries, where did the Palestinian come from? Nicaragua?"

            There was never an indigenous or stable culture in the region other than the Jews. Throughout the Holy Land's history, foreign empires had overrun it and left their mark and their people on the land. unified by a common culture or stable. Foreigners constantly settled in the region because Muslim rulers wanted to populate it, because it was the holy land and drew the religious, and because of the shortage of labor.

            In the course of the 18th and 19th centuries the Holy Land was essentially repopulated by foreigners: "Egyptians arrived in a number of waves, with an especially large one from 1832 to 1840. Sudanese pioneered successfully in the swampy marshlands. Entire tribes of Bedouin from as far away as Libya settled on the coastal plane. Abandoned villages in the Galilee were resettled by Lebanese Christians. Coastal towns attracted Armenians, Syrians, Turks… Russian expansion into the Caucasus led to the emigration of its Muslim people (Circassians and Georgians)…Similarly, the Austrian advance into the Balkans led to the emigration of Bosnian Muslims to Palestine. Turkomans from Russian Central Asia and Kuyrds also arrived in the 19th century." Ironically, the only "surviving 'Canaanite' culture is that of the Jews, who everywhere still pray, and in Israel also speak, in a Canaanite language."

          • YOSFA

            what? never been a stable population! what is your definition for a stable population?

            and if so then why not then hand over these lands to the stable jewish population which have been there constantly? according to your hypothesis this means that the jewsih emigrants (which are definitely less of a stable population than the already not stable population who lived there) should be excluded from the partition plan because well – they are not the nationals of these lands and are not part of the ‘stable population’

          • MixMChess

            You're not making any sense and you obviously didn't read my post. The only indigenous population in the region were the Jews. There is no such thing as a Palestinian Arab. It is a concept invented in 1964 by Yassir Arafat. The so-called Palestinians were actually from surrounding Arab areas such as Egypt, Syria and Iraq.

          • YOSFA

            Invented? this keeps getting better and better, that fact that i am actually discussing the very existence of the Palestinians in Palestine is completely ridiculous!

            Genetic studies proves that what you call 'Arab' in Palestine are in fact descendants of those who have lived there centuries ago including the prehistoric Jews, Jewish immigrants have European traits in their gene pool which the Arabs of Palestine don’t have, Jewish emigrants are less Jewish than the Arabs of Palestine, which does not even need any studying because obviously those emigrants have not lived in Palestine for centuries, while Arabs of Palestine have been there, their great grandparents were actual Jews.
            http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/

          • MixMChess

            Actually the genetic descendants you reference accounted for a minor population at best. And again I refer you to the PLO themselves:

            Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein stated as such as early as 1977:

            "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism."

          • MixMChess

            "Being uninhabited does not mean its not their land, should they have placed a person every sq KM of the desert to prove they do exist and its their land? c'mon.. "

            Large swaths of land were owned by neither Jew or Arab, for example the Negev. Even still, my original point still stands. When Jews did purchase land, they bought tenant-free and uninhabited land as to not upset the local Arab population.

          • YOSFA

            i am sure they did not want to upset the local population, owning a land and belonging to a land is two different concepts, you can own few hectares of land, but all of your country belongs to you and your fellow citizens, and more so, uninhabitance because there are no cultivation or the conditions too harsh to inhabit-ate does not mean that its up for grabs – this land was identified by the brits as the mandate of Palestine, if it was not part of any group then how would colonial Britain devise a partition plan of lands they don't control, own or are responsible for?

          • MixMChess

            Its obvious you don't understand basic concepts of land ownership or international statecraft. My point stands that in 1947 under the original partition plan, the state for the Jews was created on Jewish land where no Arabs had ever been displaced or disrupted.

            Whether you like it or not, the British and the UN had the right to divide the land. It was done morally because there was never any Arab country in the Jewish areas, Arabs had no legal or moral rights to the Jewish owned and Jewish majority areas.

          • aspacia

            This in miniscule compare the the land the Jews were promise in the Balfour. Why won't the vast Muslim Middle-East absorb their brethren as Israel absorbed her refugee brethren? Muslims want to destroy Israel regardless of the cost to themselves. They will miserably fail, as they always do.

            What has Texas to do with your argument? Off topic.

          • YOSFA

            Their brethren spoke polish, German and Russian, Arabs spoke Arabic and most were illiterate – how do you suggest they would 'absorb' them? and why should they? do they owe them anything? the Germans definitely do! but they chose that someone else would pay for their atrocities.

          • aspacia

            What are you talking about? Jews? Jews absorbing their brethren into their legally purchased land.

            If Muslims wanted peace they would absorb their brethren instead of making them cannon fodder.

          • MixMChess

            Wrong, nearly 850,000 Jews came from Arab countries and spoke Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic and even Chaldean dialects.

          • YOSFA

            even so, were they Palestinians? we all have seen the bloody tensions in Palestinian refugee camps and where Palestinian diaspora exist within the middle east, you just can't presume that the two populations would be in harmony, the two are not homogenous even if both are Arab because, Arabs are not a homogenous group, it is just a linguistic classification of which a multi diverse ethnicities and cultures live under.

          • aspacia

            You live in an intolerant sewer. Israel is part of the successful, first world, and the rest of the Middle-East is third world in spite of their oil wealth.

          • YOSFA

            Sorry to offend you by questioning things, but unlike you i don't suffer from Israeli fetish.

          • aspacia

            I appreciate valid, informed questions; not ignorant, uneducated, ill formed questions.

            You have no concept of the historical facts, only Arab and liberal lies. Geez, even the history professor Mark Levine cannot counter the facts and often steps into the occupation myth. When confronted, aren't you living the the USA also an occupier according to your claims. He clams up, and recently, and typical of a ivory tower academic who stepped into Oz with the concept of sovereignty not being connected to territory. I wonder how he will counter the actual definition of sovereignty: Sovereignty is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory.[1]

          • MixMChess

            Instead you suffer from an anti-Israel pro-Palestinian fetish.

          • YOSFA

            believe it or not i hope that Israel would do well, because if it does we would not have this conversation, i am just aware that there is always these tensions and fuelled hatred when someone questions the deeds of Israel, every country has been criticized and scrutinized at some point or another in history because countries are made of people and people make mistakes, and often these mistakes are caused by the radical fanatics and the dirty politicians who assume power in its governments, yet when it comes to Israel and Israel supporters (which is a biased term in its nature) that country has done no wrong and has a clean record, and if anyone starts digging up or have an alternative view under the values of liberty and free thought they are instantly rebranded anti Semitic and all that garbage, which is why i have taken some time to write here that the Egyptian revolution is not anti Semitic people rising up to destroy Israel, believe it or not , the Egyptians had so many problems Israel would be the least of their concerns.

          • MixMChess

            Fair and legitimate criticism of Israel is fine. Unfortunately when criticism denies Israel's right to exist (as yours did) and seeks to demonize, delegitimization and hold Israel to a double standard (again as yours did) – you have crossed the line into antisemitism.

          • YOSFA

            i did not state that Israel should perish in any of my posts, you are stereo tuping as all of the pro Israel crowd,
            i am debating the morality of process of which it was created and the means to do so from a historical perspective,
            obviously now that there are 2nd and 3rd generation Israeli born and raised in Israel ultimately dictates that this is or has become their lands and their home country that they belong to and has a rightful cause of defending it and prosper within its limits (limits being controversial and not yet well defined)

            you are compounding my questioning of the creation of that state with other points of view that i did not state or condoned so you can conveniently demonize my intentions and label me as Jew hating or whatever eloquent terms you can throw,

          • YOSFA

            criticism of the US formation has been long professed, does not mean that the US is an 'evil' state, the fact remains that the current generations (me and yours) have not been participants of what happened back then, we have inherited these issues but we have a responsibility to question and acknowledge what happened from a historical and moral perspectives, but instead the debate always turns into labels and pointing fingers which is not healthy and does not help anyone, be it jews, arabs, muslims, palestenians or whomever believers or ethnicity that takes part of the debate,

            at least you have to admit that discussing such things or being doubtful or sceptic is a red line in the media and cultural circles, which i am completely against as it goes against freedom of expression and free thought.

      • YOSFA

        Link is some ship hijacked in '85, is this relevant? what is your point?

        • aspacia

          The ship is the Archille Laurel. Have you not recollection of history?

        • MixMChess

          On October 7, 1985 four heavily armed terrorists representing the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF) hijacked the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, with some 100 mostly elderly passengers on board, in Egyptian waters. The hijackers shot and killed a disabled American tourist, 69-year-old Leon Klinghoffer, and threw his body overboard with his wheelchair. In a brazen example of antisemitism, the Palestinian thugs targeted Mr. Klinghoffer simply because he was a Jew.

          • YOSFA

            and this relates to guided missiles flown into Israel in what way? Since you are all knowledgeable of terrorism by the militia, lets then talk about terrorism by the state, here is a handful of colorful topics about the actions of the democratic state of Israel:

            -Deir Yassin massacre
            -Sabra and Shatila massacre
            -Qana massacre 1st & 2nd
            -Six Day War

            i hope you have the stomach for these 'self defence' actions by the state.

            disclaimer: i don't condone any killing of any kind, but even more i despise the way some killers are painted heroes and some other are merely terrorists.

          • MixMChess

            Israeli forces did not commit a massacre at Deir Yassin. Anti-Israel advocates constantly bring up Deir Yassin because they have no other examples to use. But these are fabricated charges – a complete Hoax. The battle at Deir Yassin was a military Arab-Jewish battle with some unfortunate civilian casualties.

            Recall, the town was a militarily strategic location during the 1948 war. Contrary to revisionist histories that the town was filled with peaceful innocents, residents, civilian combatants and foreign troops all engaged in hostilities against the Jewish forces. The Jewish forces gave ample warning of the imminent attack and even left open an escape corridor from the village so that more than 200 residents could leave unharmed. According to Bir Zeit University professor Sharif Kanaana, during the battle, a little over a hundred Arabs soldiers and combatants were killed, including a handful of civilians.

            Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the NY Times reported that the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. No hint of a massacre ever appeared in the report.

            Palestinian leaders fabricated claims of a "massacre" in hopes of rallying Palestinians and other Arab nations to their cause: Hazem Nusseibeh, editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service's Arabic news in 1948 told the BBC: "I asked Khalidi [Dr. Hussein, a prominent Palestinian leader] how we should cover the story. He said 'We must make the most of this.' So we wrote a press release stating that at Deir Yassin children were murdered, pregnant women rapes. All sorts of atrocities."

            Ayish Zeidan, a former resident of Deir Yassin, told the Daily Telegraph in 1998: "The Arab radio talked of women being killed and raped, but this is not true….I believe that most of those who were killed were among the fighters and the women and children who helped the fighters."

            Abu Mahmud, Deir Yassin resident in 1948, reported to the BBC: "[T]he villagers protested against the atrocity claims. We said, 'There was no rape.' [Khalidi] said, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews."

            Hazem Nusseibeh, editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service's Arabic news later admitted to the BBC that: "The fabricated stories about Deir Yassin were our biggest mistake because "Palestinians fled in terror and left the country in huge numbers after hearing the atrocity claims."

            Of course, a very real massacre that did occur four days later is never mentioned. On April 13, 1948, Palestinian Arab forces ambushed a Jewish convoy on its way to Hadassah Hospital, killing 80 Jewish doctors, nurses and patients (ALL CIVILIANS). There was no battle-the Jews were not an armed fighting force-and no Arabs were killed or wounded – just a straight-up massacre.

          • YOSFA

            interesting, can you give some links to the above reports and interviews? i'd like to take a look.

          • MixMChess

            The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at Sabra and Shatila camps in 1982. Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese. As soon as the Israeli soldiers learned of the massacre, they immediately ordered the Phalangists out of the camps.

          • YOSFA

            Israel controlled the camps – it has invaded Lebanon at that point as i am sure you know, it had complete control over who goes where and do what, that was the justification for invading Lebanon,

            i am sure the IDF knew that the Phalanges did not go in to do humanitarian work, and the events have lasted for three days of which the IDF just watched one the most repulsive incident in human history, and don't forget that the Phalanges and the IDF formed an alliance front against many other fractions and alliances that has composed the civil war theatre in Lebanon, in the case of Sabra & Shatila, the IDF let the Phalanges do their dirty work,

            i mean Israel have indicted Ariel Sharon over this, what else do you need? you can't wash away this from Israel! what if those were killed were jews? the whole world would have to observe a memorial day over it and i am sure Israel will kill and occupy more people that have nothing to do with it over the massacre – if it was jews that were murdered.

          • MixMChess

            Israel handed the camps over to the Phalangists, because they were to serve as the new leadership in S. Lebanon. The Kahan Commission conclusively found that there was no evidence that Israeli units took direct part in the massacre and that it was the "direct responsibility of Phalangists." The Kahan Commission further found that Israel was indirectly responsible for not ANTICIPATING the possibility of Phalangist violence. Of course, even these findings are absurd considering the fact that it has been well documented that Elie Hobeika's, head of the Phalangists, defied Israeli orders and instructions to behave like a "dignified" army and ordered the massacre. Bottom line, Israel wasn't responsible, but that doesn't stop anti-Israel zealots such as yourself for adding this to a long list of supposed grievances.

            Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis protested the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it.

            By contrast, "few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps." According to UN officials, "635 were killed and 2,500 wounded." During a two-year battle between the "Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO," more than 2,000 civilians were murdered. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the massacre.

            As usual, Israel is held to a double standard.

          • YOSFA

            Israel is the double standard, check how many violations of international laws that it has committed and yet they have the US veto in their back pockets,

            i don't see how is it that the IDF controlling refugee camps and not seeing any possibility of stopping the atrocity for as long as three days in a row, you are making it sound as they were and army of stoned slackers and were 'really trying' with the Phalanges,

            BS they well knew what was going on there, had it been there were white or jew, we would not even knew what is Sabra & Shatila.

          • MixMChess

            "Israel is the double standard, check how many violations of international laws that it has committed and yet they have the US veto in their back pockets,"

            LOL, more grievances to add to your collection? You don't understand and are completely ignorant of international law. Israel has never once violated international law. General Assembly Resolutions and Chapter VI Security Council Resolutions are non-binding and have no force or precedent under International law.

          • YOSFA

            oh yea?
            do i need to mention the right of return being denied to Palestinian refugees? controlling muslim religious sites? the settlements? the occupied territories? wars of aggression?

          • MixMChess

            Yawn…. Palestinians have no right to return. Recall they waged war against Israel – they lost their rights when they turned to violence.

            As for the religious sites. Israel guarantees the open and free access to all religious sites regardless of religion – including the Muslim religious sites. No Muslim has ever been denied access to an Islamic (or other) religious site under Israeli rule. Palestinians routinely destroy Jewish and Christian holy sites (Rachel's Tomb and Church of Sepulchre) and deny Jews access to their religious sites.

            Israel has already withdrawn from Gaza and parts of the W. Bank. The remaining settlements are perfectly legal and exist on less than 1.6% of the land in the W. Bank. Israel has already agreed to dismantle more of these and give Israeli land to Palestinians as part of a final settlement.

            Israel has never once engaged in any war of aggression against any of her neighbors. This is just an empty charge.

            You keep repeating the same old tired charges. You are a hatemonger and a bigot.

          • MixMChess

            "i don't see how is it that the IDF controlling refugee camps and not seeing any possibility of stopping the atrocity for as long as three days in a row, you are making it sound as they were and army of stoned slackers and were 'really trying' with the Phalanges,"

            They gave specific instructions to the Phalangists which were violated, and when word of atrocity got out Israel immediately ordered the Phalangists to leave the camps.

            Again I ask, why is your outrage not directed at the Phalangists? Where is your outrage for the terrible atrocities the Jordanians and the Syrians have inflicted on the Palestinians? Your double-standard and bias proves your antisemitism.

          • YOSFA

            very stereo typical of you that i have a problem with Israel but am cool with the Phalanges.

            we are discussing Israel, not the Lebanese Civil War, pay attention.

          • MixMChess

            You want to focus on Israel which bore no direct responsibility. You are obsessed with demonizing Israel and holding her to a DOUBLE STANDARD. Now pay attention, you are a hatemonger.

          • MixMChess

            Both Qana incidents, while tragic, were not massacres. They were mistakes made during intense fighting with Hezbollah. The fact remains that Hezbollah deliberately used human shields and fired rockets from civilian areas in an attempt to maximize civilian casualties. For example, in 2006, the particular area of Qana was where 150 rocket attacks on Israel had originated. Had the war-mongering Hezbollah not initiated attacks against Israel there would have never been any civilian casualties.

          • YOSFA

            It was war – how do you like Hezbollah to be at war with Israel? by firing corks?

            again, mistakes like these are just way too big to fit for the IDF's incredibly advanced arsenal and weaponry systems it just does not make any sense,

          • MixMChess

            During both incidents Hezbollah had no reason to be at war with Israel. Hezbollah shouldn't be firing anything at Israel, let alone "corks." As stated, Hezbollah has its stated goal not the liberation of S. Lebanon, but the destruction of Israel and worldwide Jewry.

            Mistakes like this happen when Hezbollah fires at Israel from civilian areas putting local civilian populations at risk. In both incidents Israel fired at buildings where rockets and mortars from Hezbollah fighters were originating. Israel targeted Hezbollah terrorists, not the civilians Hezbollah was using as human shields.

          • YOSFA

            Might be, but their very existence is because of the occupation, fish needs water to swim in, and Israel wars of aggression and continued unlawful assaults is the water that radicals needs to swim in,

          • MixMChess

            What? This comment doesn't even make sense. Israel is not occupying S. Lebanon or Gaza, so again I ask, what occupation is Hezbollah or Hamas supposedly fighting against?

            Israel has every right to protect its citizens from constant bombardment by Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists. Israel doesn't assault anyone, it responds to assaults brought forth by genocidal maniacs.

          • MixMChess

            All international jurists and legal scholars agree that Egypt's act of closing the Straits of Tiran was an ACT OF WAR against Israel which started the 6-day war conflict.

            Egyptian President Gamel Abdul Nasser illegally ordered the UN Emergency Force stationed between Israel and Egypt to evacuate the Sinai. Egypt then closed the Straits of Tiran which was a clear act of war under international law, and violated the 1958 Geneva Convention guaranteeing the international status of straits.

            In fact, Nasser "candidly" proclaimed on May 22 1967, "We knew that the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba meant war with Israel… the only objective will be Israel's destruction."

            On June 4, 1967, one-day before the outbreak of war, Iraq joined a military alliance with Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. The Iraqi President Abdur Rahman Aref announced, "Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map." and predicted that, "there would be practically no Jewish survivors." The Syrian defense minister ordered his troops to, "strike the enemy's civilian settlements, turn them into dust, pave Arab roads with the skulls of Jews." Egypt, Syria and Jordan SURROUND Israel with approximately 250,000 Arab troops, more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft.

            Statements from Syrian and Egyptian officials have confirmed that they started the war with Israel with the goal of "exterminating the Jews." Syrian President Atassi claimed that they, and not Israel, had started the war: "We have decided that this battle will be one for the final liberation from imperialism and Zionism…We shall meet in Tel Aviv." In fact, Egyptian Military Chief Justice Salah al-Hadidi admitted the following: . "I can state that Egypt's political leadership called Israel to war. It clearly provoked Israel and forced it into a confrontation."

          • YOSFA

            I'll allow the proposition that closing a national land's pass is an act of war (maybe then would we should consider hiring an Israeli defence minister in each Arab country to make sure they don't get things wrong)

            if so how do you explain the sweeping victory in a decisive surprise attack against three countries? if they had committed the first step in waging a war against Israel, wouldn't they have prepared a little instead of getting caught off guard?

            and after the destruction of the armies an eliminating the 'immanent annihilation threat' – why they would hold these lands to this day? the only piece of land retrieved was Sinai in the Yum Kippur war, which only then Israel have considered having piece with a neighbouring nation,

          • YOSFA

            you cannot deny the aggressive nature of the Israeli political doctrine, if they see an opportunity to capture land they would definitely do it, this is how the whole country was formed, a religious state which promotes the concept of a 'greater Israel', and the keystone to that is a fancy book with some science fiction stories of the pre historic days of glory and how god favoured them over all races, religious garbage that incites hatred and violence against people, please don’t tell me that Islam is violent and hateful or that Hamas would like to kill all Jews because that is exactly what I am saying, the only difference is that I have the capacity to look at both sides without falling a victim to their sinful propaganda.

          • MixMChess

            "if so how do you explain the sweeping victory in a decisive surprise attack against three countries? if they had committed the first step in waging a war against Israel, wouldn't they have prepared a little instead of getting caught off guard? "

            Did you even read my post? Israel was surrounded by 250,000 Arab troops, more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft. The Arab states made the first step. I'm not a military tactician, but Israel must have had better military advisers and strategists to enable them the sweeping victory.

            If you don't believe me just look at the quotes from the Egyptian, Syrian and Iraqi leadership. They stated their goal of destroying Israel and initiating a war. Only an idiot would assume Israel started the 1967 war.

          • YOSFA

            who fired the first shot? putting your army on you side of the borders of a hostile state is not an action of war, its called protecting your border,

            otherwise we have multiple ongoing wars as we speak.

          • MixMChess

            You're an idiot. Learn international law. Egypt's closing of the Strait of Tiran WAS the FIRST SHOT. The buildup of troops to invade Israel while the Arab leaders declaring they wanted to commit another Holocaust IS THE FIRST SHOT. All supported by international law.

            None of the Arab countries were protecting their borders, they were invading to destroy Israel. The Arab leaders said so themselves moron.

          • YOSFA

            yes they were invading Israel by getting caught off guard,

            oh wait i have a better one: they were preparing for a defensive war!

          • MixMChess

            Pay attention and go re-read my comment. The Arab armies and leaders openly admitted they were invading Israel. Grow a brain.

          • MixMChess

            "you cannot deny the aggressive nature of the Israeli political doctrine, if they see an opportunity to capture land they would definitely do it,"

            This is complete nonsense considering Israel actively gives up its territory in attempts for Peace! Sinai, S. Lebanon, Gaza and several W. Bank settlements have already been abandoned/withdrawn from in attempts at Peace. Israel has time and time stated that it will withdraw from more W. Bank settlements and give other Israeli territory to Palestinians as part of a final negotiated settlement.

            "this is how the whole country was formed, a religious state which promotes the concept of a 'greater Israel',"

            Your claim is absurd. Zionism is a SECULAR movement founded by a secular Jew. Today Israel is a secular state with no official state religion that guarantees the equal rights of ALL of its citizens (including the approximately 20% Arab/Muslims).

            As for "greater Israel" that only exists in the far right fervent orthodox community which makes up less than 4% of Israelis. Official Israeli government policy has always been to trade land for peace.

            "and the keystone to that is a fancy book with some science fiction stories of the pre historic days of glory and how god favoured them over all races, religious garbage that incites hatred and violence against people,"

            Now you are showing your true colors. The Torah nor any other Jewish doctrine incites violence or hatred against any other people. The term "chosen people" means that Jews are chosen to follow gods laws. It does not mean Jews are better than other nations. Only an antisemite, such as yourself, would interpret it that way.

            "please don’t tell me that Islam is violent and hateful or that Hamas would like to kill all Jews because that is exactly what"

            I never once mentioned Islam. The fact remains that Hamas does want to commit a genocide of worldwide Jewry. It states it in their CHARTER for crying out loud. There leaders state their goal everyday on broadcasts and sermons.

            "I am saying, the only difference is that I have the capacity to look at both sides without falling a victim to their sinful propaganda."

            Nonsense, your posts reveal your strong Anti-Israel bias. You have happily swallowed Arab propaganda which is parroted in your comments. If you could truly look at both sides you would support a two state solution with a peaceful Palestinian state living side by side with Israel. You are a xenophobe and war-monger.

          • YOSFA

            i do support a two state solution – Israel don't, please don't put words in my mouth,

            i cannot be anti-Semite because i am Semite myself,

            have you read the old testament? do i really need to quote? How far should I go to state the obvious?

          • MixMChess

            "Antisemitism is "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group. While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"), and that has been its normal use since then."

          • aspacia

            Then explain who started the violence? Violence of Muslim against Jew started during Mad Mo's time, and continues to this day. You are the aggressors who originally attack Israel and Jews in the land during the beginning of Zionism. Sharon was a product of Muslim attacks, hence his strong stance. Read some history. He was not a product of the Holocaust, but a product of Muslim aggression.

          • YOSFA

            so if that's the case and muslims accross history have made violence against jews, why would they wish their state in the hear of their lands?

          • aspacia

            Because Jews have been emotionally, and physically connected to the land for thousands of years. During the Diaspora they often cried "Next year, Jerusalem."

          • MixMChess

            Israel is the land of the Jews. They don't want a state in Arab lands, just Jewish lands which is Israel – no more no less.

          • MixMChess

            "I'll allow the proposition that closing a national land's pass is an act of war (maybe then would we should consider hiring an Israeli defence minister in each Arab country to make sure they don't get things wrong) "

            What do you mean you'll "allow" it? It is international law. You are not the arbitrator of what is legal or illegal under international law.

          • MixMChess

            "and after the destruction of the armies an eliminating the 'immanent annihilation threat' – why they would hold these lands to this day? the only piece of land retrieved was Sinai in the Yum Kippur war, which only then Israel have considered having piece with a neighbouring nation,"

            You answered your own question. Israel held onto the Sinai, W. Bank, Gaza and Golan to ensure that attacks would not originate from those territories and to negotiate a just and lasting peace with her Arab neighbors. That is why Israel traded Sinai to Egypt, for the peace agreement. Israel withdrew from Gaza in hopes of peace, obviously that didn't work. Israel is prepared to withdraw from W. Bank settlements to allow for the creation of a Palestinian state. Israel wants peace, Palestinians want war.

          • aspacia

            The peace was not accepted by the Egyptian people.

            Oh, on the West Banka tactic we disagree. Remember what happened with the Gaza withdrawal. It is now Judenfrei, and Israel is under continual attack from the Gazans.

          • YOSFA

            so they held on to Sinai hoping for peace? get real, this is completely insane – invading a sovereign nation to achieve peace?

            and they had to wait for Egypt to strike back six or seven years later to sit on a table and negotiate peace? do you know how preposterous you sound right now?

          • MixMChess

            You're an idiot. Israel captured Sinai in a DEFENSIVE war against Egypt. It held Sinai after the War in hopes of achieving a peace.

            Israelis tried to make peace with Egypt in 1967 but the Egyptian leaders at the time refused. Peace wasn't achieved until 1979 after years and years of intense negotiations and bartering.

            Seriously, read a book – I promise it won't kill you – it might even make you smarter.

          • aspacia

            Fighting to protect one's brethren, while in uniform is not considered terrorism. By your definition, all WWII soldiers on both sides would be terrorists.

            Frankly I do condone killing, legal homicide against an enemy.

            Why do you not mention the numerous Muslim attacks against Jewish Day Care Centers, School Buses, the Fogel Family, and the U.S. Twin Towers, the Madrid Train Station bombing, the London Tube bombing, and many other acts of Muslim violence against non Muslim while not wearing a uniform.

            FREAKING COWARDS. Oh, yes, according to Arab Muslims it is permitted to target any Israeli Jew because they will eventually be drafted into the IDF.

            Peruse the map for a few Muslim massacres of Jews:: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Gu3-w5uvB_o/TTxg-13Ea7I

        • aspacia

          The point is rabid Muslim intolerance of Jews. Note how Muslims single out Jews for slaughter as they did in Mumbai. Geez, the murdered the rabbi and his wife, then mutilated their sexual organs or was it vice versa. This shows Muslim barbarity, intolerance and hate. You will continue to be a violent people, a little people, incapable of becoming technologically, economically and morally advanced until you reject these aspects of your faith.

          • YOSFA

            first of all i am not Muslim so don't address me as one, second of all and as all Abrahamic religions they incite division and hatred among those who take it seriously, believe me with 1.5 Billion muslims in the world if they all wanted to destroy anyone they would have done it already, extremism has no religion, it can use one, but can also exist without.

          • aspacia

            Okay, you are antiJew, happy? The Arab world has tried to destroy Israel many times, and have been humiliated. Numbers and military technology do not guarantee victory. It only takes a few to inflict great damage.

    • MixMChess

      "You have pointed that Hamas has fired rockets against Synagogues and Homes, well, they don’t have access to guided missiles, no way they have the ability to aim their home made rockets to a specific target,"

      Anyone who has ever lit off bottle rockets on the 4th of July knows this is utter nonsense. While qassam rockets don't have guidance computers, the class of qassam rocket determines it approximate trajectory and range. Palestinian terrorists can easily aimed rockets and target civilian populations. Moreover, Palestinian terrorists (like Hamas) have stated their goal of targeting Israeli civilian population centers to maximize the number of Israeli civilian deaths. Here is an example of how Palestinian thugs target innocent Israeli civilians forcing them to live in constant fear:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2drE9mVhopE&fe

      • YOSFA

        i doubt that 20km off their target their missiles have any capacity to target anything, but this is not important because if your point is that Hamas kills civilians then of course yes they do, but so is Israel, so i hate this biased view of demonizing one part of the problem and keeping the other in good light,

        look, anyone who claims that any sort of authority-regime-country have not purposely killed civilians is naive, the US has done it big time, Israel, Hamas, Arabs, Latinos, Jews, Muslims – all have an equal equity in killing innocent people, so why don't we just put the glasses on and see that nobody is innocent here – calling Hamas a terrorist organization and then shutting our eyes on Israel's malice is not going anywhere, nor it should be,

        • aspacia

          YOSFA, those who you support use unarmed civilians as shields when they shoot rocket from schools, hospitals, etc. They use Red Cross Ambulances to transport weapons.

          Israel allows all faiths to vote in their elections; Muslims do not. Israel allows gays into their military and workforce, Muslims murder them. Israel allow women the right to vote and participate in civilian and military life, Muslims do not.

          YOSFA, frankly your are falling for Arab propaganda and are a fool.

          • YOSFA

            ok, first of all, Gaza is the most watched sector of land on earth, obviously they cant just go in the open and fire rockets, now this might mean that some casualties would occur or it might not – i don't know if this is the case and you did not substantiate that this is the case, however, i am sure that Israel PR and media would not spare any efforts in blaming Hamas for its ruthless and shameful civilian casualty caused by the IDF,

            Muslims do not have any election of any kind – Muslims are not allowed to vote because they live under autocratic dictatorships, now this seems to be changing in the Arab Spring, which none of the people here have ever praised, i mean when Arabs live under dictatorships they are jealous of Israel, and when they are rising up against these dictatorship they are trying to destroy Israel, and everything must revolve around Israel…because Israel is the centre of the universe and if some people do not treat it that way they must be racist anti-Semitic…

            C’mon people have S**t to do and they don’t really have the time to admire and idolize Israel all day, their lives are not that empty.

          • MixMChess

            "ok, first of all, Gaza is the most watched sector of land on earth, obviously they cant just go in the open and fire rockets, now this might mean that some casualties would occur or it might not – i don't know if this is the case and you did not substantiate that this is the case, however, i am sure that Israel PR and media would not spare any efforts in blaming Hamas for its ruthless and shameful civilian casualty caused by the IDF,"

            From 2001 – 2009, there were over 8,600 rocket attacks from Gaza against Israel, causing 28 deaths, hundreds of injuries, as well as "widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life."

            It has been well documented that Hamas uses human shields and Hamas has stated itself that its goal is to maximize Palestinian and Israeli civilian casualties:

            Hamas hid its weapons in schools, mosques, hospitals, and residential homes. During Israel’s military operation, Hamas leaders abandoned Gaza’s civilians and put their headquarters under Shifa Hospital. Hamas fired from UN, hospital, and civilian facilities, turning them into military targets.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg

            Gazan civilians charged that Hamas forced them to stay in homes and facilities used by gunmen, even though they knew Israel would mount counter attacks.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

            Hamas literally dragged unwilling civilians to serve as human shields when they knew an attack was imminent.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Oqo_wmuGo

          • aspacia

            Thank you Mix for saving me the time!

          • YOSFA

            1- on hiding weapons: where would like them to hide it? in front of the Mossad? hiding a weapon would not mean that the hiding place would be bombed because simply it has to be found first, would you ask the French revolution against the Nazi not to hide their weapons in schools? its a war class tactic i don't know why is it being immoral?

            what about the settlers and the stash of weapons and ammunition in their homes? would that be immoral too?

          • YOSFA

            2- on Civilians being forced to be human shields: none of the videos have said or shown that, where are the testimonials that they 'have been forced ' to be human shields? ____one of the videos says that a guy got a phone call from the IDF to evacuate his house, so he called people and they have spontaneously and voluntarily decided to squad on its roof to prevent a possible airstrike, Hamas did not ask them to do that, they have done it themselves because I guess they expect others to do the same and protect their homes, that's courage not cowardice.____Further to that, many American and Europeans have tried being human shields to protect Israel from levelling Palestinian homes, some killed by the Israeli earth moving equipment, are they encouraged by hatred and intolerance as well? would they qualify for being anti Semitic and like to see all Jews exterminated? or maybe something else is going on here?____here is a video – its really easy to search the web for videos, but instead of relying on a Israeli propaganda to find the truth, i have relied on the Guardian, or are they Jew hating as well?___ _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ6MWCDlTTM

          • MixMChess

            You obviously didn't watch the full video. If you go to 4:30 it shows the "brave" Hamas soldiers using children as human shields. This is a well documented fact.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE&fe

          • MixMChess

            1) It is illegal under international law and the laws of war to hide large weapon caches used in active combat among civilian populations. This is what Hamas and Hezbollah do.

            As for the French Revolution, there is no comparison. Israel is seeking peace with its neighbors. Hamas and Hezbollah are seeking destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jews. They have no reason to have weapons let alone hide them.

            The settlers hide weapons and ammunition in their homes to protect themselves against Arab terrorists. Just see the Fogel family for reasons why (Palestinian thugs beheaded a sleeping baby girl)!

            Palestinians hide weapons to MURDER Jews. Settlers keep weapons to PROTECT themselves from being murdered by Arab Terrorists.

          • aspacia

            AT least they do not put weapons in hospitals, nursery schools and religious sites like Muslims do.

          • aspacia

            Get real Yosfa, most of us work 15 hour days, and our goal is to defend what is just and moral. After 9/11, I had only two Middle-East studies classes and was not occupied with this issue. 9/11 changed me and many others. After delving into the Qu'ran and hadiths on the USC.edu webside (sadly, it has been scrubbed of the more violent verses) and reading critiques of Judaism and Islam, I found that most of the critiques of Judaism were based on omissions and lies. You see, I also delved into the Hebrew translation of the Torah and Talmud, as well as Islamic religious leaders interpretations and found Islam to be founded by a very dangerous, narcissistic sociopath who could not be more different from Abraham, Noah, Moses or Jesus.

        • MixMChess

          "i doubt that 20km off their target their missiles have any capacity to target anything"

          Not at all considering that the current range of the qassam rockets launched from Gaza can only include nonmilitary civilian targets (major southern Israeli cities and communities). So basically, anytime a qassam rocket is fired from Gaza, the intended target is necessarily civilian. Recall, qassam rocket attacks have killed over 28 Israelis and wounded and maimed hundreds of others.

        • MixMChess

          "look, anyone who claims that any sort of authority-regime-country have not purposely killed civilians is naive…"

          Nonsense, as I have proven, Israel does not purposefully target civilian targets. Its main objective is to destroy Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists. The goals of Hamas are clear: maximize civilian casualties and destruction of Israel (and worldwide Jewry). The intentions behind the parties are complete opposites. If you can't see the difference than you are morally blind.

          • YOSFA

            i agree that if Hamas has Kill all Jews button it would gladly hit it, but looking back on the preamble of the making of Hamas and all the radical groups i have no wonder why they would think that way, violence leads to more violence, Jews have existed before the synthetic creation of Israel and have long existed with no reported issues under the Islamic caliphates across the generations, the radicalization of Palestinians is fuelled by the forceful creation of the state of Israel and all the atrocities that accompanied such creation, ____if families displaced, homes razed, lands annexed and seized, people killed and denied their lands which has been handed over violently to Russian, polish, American, German Jew immigrants then i would not expect whomever lives there be it Arab, Muslim or any other race/ethnicity to simply welcome them with open arms and throw flowers at their feet, ____would you feel ok if the Jews of the 20th century be handed over a piece of America? since we are all caring for their content after the treatment they have endured in modern times one would expect them to be respectful of the suffering of others, especially those whom their country was handed over to by the grace of guns and bloodshed,__

          • YOSFA

            no sir i am numb to Israel and the Zionist agenda, i have no sympathy for their continued mongering of what the world owes them (well their grandparents for that matter) after witnessing what the way they treat the other,

            it has always been the case, be it Northern Ireland, Kurds of Turkey and Iraq, Kashmir, northern Spain and other regions of the world which have been annexed or stepped over by the colonials – violence and bloodshed supported by ideology and the word of god, Israeli Arab conflict is one other case, no different from others,

            i really hope for the best for both but unfortunately i see no near resolution, all i can hope for is more people understanding the circumstance and not being totally politically correct about their views.

          • aspacia

            Zionism is a secular concept, not religious.

          • MixMChess

            "Jews have existed before the synthetic creation of Israel and have long existed with no reported issues under the Islamic caliphates across the generations,"

            Not quite. Islam has been at war with Judaism and Jews since its inception. Jews in Muslim lands were subject to widespread persecution, murder and humiliating treatment as second-class citizens. Here are just a handful of examples:

            In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the Jewish men in Medina.

            In 8th century Morocco, whole Jewish communities were wiped out by the Muslim rulers.

            In 1066 in Granada, Spain, Muslim mobs razed the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants.

            In the 12th century in N. Africa, the Almohads decimated several Jewish communities.

            In 1465, in Fez, Morocco, thousands of Jews were slaughtered, leaving only 11 alive.

            In 1785 in Libya, Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews.

            In the 19th century in Algiers, Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830

            In Marrakesh, Morocco, more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.

            There were anti-Jewish progroms all throughout the middle east in the 19th century.

            In the 1940's more than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.

            Need I really go on?

          • MixMChess

            "the radicalization of Palestinians is fuelled by the forceful creation of the state of Israel and all the atrocities that accompanied such creation, ____if families displaced, homes razed, lands annexed and seized, people killed and denied their lands which has been handed over violently to Russian, polish, American, German Jew immigrants then i would not expect whomever lives there be it Arab, Muslim or any other race/ethnicity to simply welcome them with open arms and throw flowers at their feet,"

            This is all nonsense. I don't have time to educate you on the history of Israel, but recall that Jews are indigenous to the land and maintained a continuous presence for over 3,000 years according to archeological and historical evidence.

            When the Romans conquered Jerusalem, only a portion of the Jewish population was exiled. The remaining Jews, banned from Jerusalem, flourished for centuries in other Jewish towns, such as Yavne, Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea. Over the next two millenia Jews constantly returned to Israel in waves of immigration. The Zionists of the 19th century were merely repeating this age-old patterns.

            Recall, the Zionists purchased vacant and tenant-free land to build the land of Israel. Local Arabs were not displaced, and the partition plan of 1947 would have created a Jewish state in the Jewish majority areas and an Arab state in the Arab majority areas. Had the Arabs accepted peace we could be celebrating the 64th anniversary of the Palestinian state. Of course, the Arabs chose war and tried to destroy the Jewish state. Arabs were never displaced from their lands, they willingly left to allow the invading Arab armies crush and "exterminate" the Jews.

          • MixMChess

            "would you feel ok if the Jews of the 20th century be handed over a piece of America? since we are all caring for their content after the treatment they have endured in modern times one would expect them to be respectful of the suffering of others, especially those whom their country was handed over to by the grace of guns and bloodshed,"

            Jews were never handed anything, they legally purchased tenant-free and VACANT land to build their country. They literally built Israel from scratch. In 1947 Jews agreed to the partition and a country on the Jewish majority areas – the Arabs rejected peace and instead chose invasion.

        • aspacia

          The IDF does not deliberately target civilians, however Hamas, Hizbullah, Fatah do, just look at the Fogel family.

    • MixMChess

      "…unlike Israel which clearly does and has targeted homes, orphanages and human shelters, to me, this puts them in the same line with war crimes of the 20th century that Jews have been on the forefront of being its victims…"

      This is a blatant LIE. Israel only targets Palestinian terrorists and their weapons and infrastructures. For example, during Operation Cast Lead in 2009, Israel "scrupulously tried to avoid harm to innocent civilians by using surgical strikes and precision munitions, warning Gaza’s civilians before an attack so they could flee to safety despite the strategic disadvantage this posed to Israel, and aborting multiple operations if civilians might be harmed." Did you know that IDF official policy places a higher value on the life of Palestinian civilians than its own soldiers?

      As British Colonel Richard Kemp noted in 2009, "I don't think there's ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza."

      • YOSFA

        this is great, so Israel targets only militants huh? now please explain the huge discrepancy between the civilian casualty death toll on both sides during the first and second intifada and the events between,

        refer to the B'tselem and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs report on civilian casualties on both sides between 1987 and 2010 and come back and tell me why does the Israel with its 'surgical' and hi tech projectile guiding top notch technology have caused way more civilian casualties than Hamas's kassam's blacksmith primitive rockets?

        • MixMChess

          Which side has more casualties has nothing to do with who initiates and perpetuates the violence. More Palestinians than Israelis have been killed largely because Israel has managed to thwart most Palestinian terrorist attacks. If Israel reduced its vigilance and its anti-terrorism tactics, Israeli casualties could surpass those of Palestinians. The fact that the Palestinian Authority and terrorist groups have not succeeded in killing more Israelis does not mean they have not consistently tried to do so. For example, during the second intifada there were over 30,000 attempted Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

          Besides, the mortality statistics PROVE that Israel has targeted terrorists and avoided civilian deaths with a very high degree of accuracy. Whereas Palestinians have targeted civilians. During the second intifada over 95% of the Palestinians killed were terrorist operatives and males engaged in combat against Israel. For example, Alexander Weinreb, the National Institutes of Child Health and Human Development Postdoctoral Fellow at the Population Research Center in the University of Chicago, reports that 43% of Israelis killed by Palestinians were civilians (women, children, and the elderly). During the same time only 4.9% of Palestinians killed by Israelis were civilians.

          • YOSFA

            4.9%?? that Alexander Weinreb report is a joke.

            the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that 59% of the Palestinian casualties between 2000 and 2007 where in fact civilian, also 69% were Israeli civilian casualties, so here goes the hi tech guided missiles and improved surgical operations tactics,

            not to mention that most of the population in Israel are reserves and on call whenever the IDF decides to, they serve on month each 14 in the army (or 12 cant remember) – now that does not give any right to kill unarmed Israelis done service or intend to or never touched a weapon, but i am wondering if Hamas applies the same policy would we all brand them as civilians? i think not..

          • MixMChess

            The figures from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UNOCHA) are laughable at best. All of their figures come from the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs for the occupied Palestinian territory (OCHAoPt), which relies on obviously biased reports and statistical figures directly from Hamas and Palestinian terrorist sources.

            For example, the breakdown of the casualties classifies a large class of combatants incorrectly as civilians. Palestinian male teenagers and young men were considered "children" and classified as civilians despite the fact that they were engaged in terrorist and combative activities against Israel. A study from the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism revealed that: “This completely contradicts accusations that Israel has ‘indiscriminately targeted women and children,’” according to the study. “Palestinian men and boys engaged in behavior that brought them into conflict with Israeli armed forces.”

            Looking beyond the second intifada at Operation Cast Lead. There, the UN (even with it's strong anti-Israel bias) reported that 80 to 85% of the Palestinian casualties were Hamas operatives and enemy combatants engaged in hostilities against Israel.

          • YOSFA

            So from where you'd like the report to come from? Israel? the north pole?

            of course it has to rely on local chapters because it addresses that particular locality, and the personnel responsible for the reports and its accuracy and authenticity are trained UN staff – not sure why would the UN have any reason to be biased against Israel?

            as for the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism coming from Israel i can easily claim the same that it is biased to Israel…

          • MixMChess

            "not sure why would the UN have any reason to be biased against Israel?"

            The Arab/Islamic bloc has led a campaign to attack and demonize Israel at the UN since the late 1960's. The UN employs Hamas operatives and other Palestinians that are associated with antisemitic groups dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Now can you see how the reports become biased? It's not rocket science. No matter how you cut it, the majority of Palestinians killed by Israel are NOT civilians, but terrorists. This disproves any claims that Israel intentionally targets civilians (which it does not).

          • MixMChess

            "not to mention that most of the population in Israel are reserves and on call whenever the IDF decides to, they serve on month each 14 in the army (or 12 cant remember) – now that does not give any right to kill unarmed Israelis done service or intend to or never touched a weapon, but i am wondering if Hamas applies the same policy would we all brand them as civilians? i think not…"

            Hamas considers all Israelis as enemy combatants. Their charter states their goal to destroy the Jewish state and all Jews worldwide. So even an anti-Israel Jew sitting in America is targeted for genocide by Hamas.

          • YOSFA

            so far they have been focused on those in Israel and Palestine, it is actually unclear whether they are against Zionist Israel, or against all Jews wherver they are, so far they have made no attempts to be Al Qaeda like organization with international operation against their perceived enemies,

            i would not be surprised if they kill Jews aboard – they are definitely that radical.

          • MixMChess

            "it is actually unclear whether they are against Zionist Israel, or against all Jews wherver they are,"

            It is not unclear, their charter clearly states that they are dedicated to the destruction of worldwide Jewry. Their leaders often loudly repeat this goal.

            "so far they have made no attempts to be Al Qaeda like organization with international operation against their perceived enemies,"

            No, but other Palestinian groups have done that for them. Recall Black September (Munich Massacre), Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (Entebbe), Hezbollah (Argentina AMIA bombing) and many other Arab/Islamic terrorists groups that target Jews worldwide.

        • aspacia

          Israel targets Muslim militants and are better shots, with superior technology. SO THE F8CK WHAT?

          • YOSFA

            well then they should be able to aim at militants not civilians,

          • MixMChess

            Israel does aim at militants and not civilians. For example, during Operation Cast Lead, the UN reported that 80 to 85% of the casualties were Hamas operatives and enemy combatants engaged in hostilities against Israel.

        • aspacia

          Hamas recently admitted that most killed during this operation were male militants. Don't you read the news?

    • MixMChess

      "No human should be denied their basic life support needs at any point, if they have pity allowed some supplies at a certain time they have also denied the same most of the time, these are people who live there and I wonder if you would have the same view if it was you or someone you care for who has been living there,"

      Israel guarantees that Palestinians are never denied any basic life support needs at any time. Despite attacks by Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist organizations, Israel maintains an "ongoing humanitarian corridor for the transfer of perishable and staple food items to Gaza." Approximately 1 million tons of humanitarian supplies enter Gaza from Israel on an annual basis. For example, from June 2009 – June 2010, "1,025,686 tons of aid, 49,610 tons of cooking gas and 136,097,330 liters of fuel have been delivered to the Gaza Strip." That is the equivalent of one ton of food and aid per Gaza resident.

      Food and other humanitarian supplies are shipped from Israel to Gaza six days a week, 52 weeks a year. In a typical week the IDF coordinates the transfer of hundreds of trucks containing about 15,000 tons of supplies. For example, "during the week of May 18, 2010 there were more than 100 truckloads of animal food, 65 trucks of fruit and vegetables; 22 truckloads of sugar, some 27 truckloads of meat, poultry and fish; and 40 trucks of dairy products." At holiday times, Israel increases transfers. For example, during Ramadhan and Eid al-Adha, Israel shipped "11,000 heads of cattle into Gaza."

      As for medical care, Palestinians can receive free medical care in Israel. Palestinians are only denied medical care if Hamas or the P.A. does not grant a permit to release the patient.

      Israel maintains an open medical corridor for patients coming out of Gaza. Did you know that about 200 medical staff members go to Gaza every month? In 2009 alone, "10,544 patients and their companions left the Gaza Strip for medical treatment in Israel. Moreover, there were 382 emergency evacuations from Gaza for medical purposes."

      If that wasn't enough, the Hadassah Medical Organization in Jerusalem donates "$3 million in aid annually to treat Palestinians in Israel." Israel also transfer tons of medical supplies to Gaza. In 2009, 4,883 tons of medical equipment and medicine were shipped into Gaza. In the first quarter of 2010, Israel shipped 152 trucks of medical supplies and equipment into Gaza. In a typical week approximately 37 truckloads of hygiene products are shipped to Gaza. And in 2009, Israel coordinated the transfer of medical supplies for the disabled including "wheelchairs, crutches and first aid kits. Other equipment shipped to Gaza include heart-monitors, baby feeding tubes, dental equipment, medical books, ambulance emergency equipment, artificial limbs and infant sleeping bags."

      • YOSFA

        Source please?

        • aspacia

          It is on utube video. There are tons of humanitarian aid flowing from Israel (not the Muslim Middle–East) into Gaza.

          YOSFA, read both sides of the issue from valid sources as I have. I am a Deist, and simply support Israel on ethical and moral justice logic. I am not bound by any formal faith, nor political party, just by a sense of ethics and choose between right and wrong.

          • YOSFA

            me too and i care for no faith,

            would you be able to ground Israel as a moral state with moral right of existence over that territory of land? i am interested in hearing your arguments,

          • MixMChess

            Yes, I ground all of my arguments for Israel in historical fact and international law.

          • aspacia

            Yes!

            Every nation in the current Middle-East has artificial border prescribed by England and France. Israel is one of those nations. All the other nations, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, et al, were accepted, all but tiny Israel. Most of the Muslim world is antiJewish and refused to tolerate a tiny bit of once Muslim/Turk ruled land being ruled by Jew/Israel. Consequently, they launched a war which they lost, and have lost ever since.

            Jews have built a free, democratic, tolerant land where gays, women, and individuals of all faith may worship.

            Now look at the vast intolerance in the Middle-East to understand why I support Israel.

        • MixMChess

          The New York Times / International Herald Tribune reported in 2009 that at the Kerem Shalom border crossing: “between mortar attacks by Hamas and other militants, about 20 truckloads of milk products, meat, medicines and eggs passed from Israel into Gaza, part of the effort to keep basic commodities reaching the 1.5 million Palestinians of the largely isolated strip.”

          Mathilde Redmatn, the deputy director of the Red Cross in the Gaza Strip emphatically stated that "there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza." She said: "If you go to the supermarket, there are products… there are restaurants and a nice beach.”

          In June of 2010 the Washington Post reported that Gaza “pharmacies look as well-supplied as a typical Rite Aid.” Janine Zacharia reported that, "If you walk down Gaza City's main thoroughfare -Salah al-Din Street – grocery stores are stocked wall-too-wall with everything from fresh Israeli yogurts and hummus to Cocoa Puffs smuggled in from Egypt.”

          The Bethlehem-based Ma'an news agency stated in February of 2009 that, "Gaza markets are saturated with goods."
          http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/

          • YOSFA

            look for the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports, the BBC and Le Figaro on the status of the humanitarian conditions of Gazans during the war and the subsequent siege, you'll find direct contradictions, i am not sure that the sources you have mentioned are credible or represnt non biased reporting,

          • MixMChess

            Nonsense, my sources are clearly independent – and the facts and statistics tell the whole story. Gazans are getting tons of humanitarian aid from Israel. Now, whether or not the greedy Hamas warlords distribute the aid is another story – unfortunately Israel is not in a position to force Hamas to give aid it supplies to the needy.

          • aspacia

            The BBC and Le Figaro have frequently been outed for omissions and lies. Le Figaro published the faked footage of a Arab boy, cradled by his father as being faked. I usually don't use Wiki, but read this :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah_incident

            Kerensky won the case against the mostly government controlled media source.

  • YOSFA

    …first its not 'alu akbar', its 'allahu Akbar' second, this is a general statement just like God Bless or Amen, nothing specific to a religious doctrine,

    It is not a religious war, its people subjected to sub standard treatment aspiring for some dignity and political freedom, yes some will be radical, but which country does not have its share of radicals?

  • ObamaYoMoma

    The "Arab Spring" is really the "Arab Mirage." As long as Islam prevails in that part of the world there will never be freedom and democracy because Islam isn't a religion in the same sense that other religions are religions. Instead, it is a competing totalitarian ideology far closer to Communism, as just like Communism Islam seeks world domination and the end result of Islam exactly like Communism is totalitarianism. Hence, any democracy created over there will be short lived, as it will inevitably be used as a vehicle for heavy-handed thugs to grab power.

  • YOSFA

    'This comment has been deleted by the administrator'

    freedom of speech anyone?

  • BS77

    Yeah, Democracy and Freedom…..what a steaming pile…the mobs that went crazy in Egypt have no grasp of democracy, freedom or modern constitutional government…they are still a mass of violent, hysterical, indoctrinated sheeple. Just ask Lara Lorgan about the democracy fest in Cairo.

    • YOSFA

      i feel sorry for Lara, but casting your views back on the US which has its share of rapists, molesters and paedophiles would you call it a 'mass of violent, hysterical, indoctrinated sheeple'?

  • YOSFA

    no it was not owned by the mandate, it was occupied by the mandate, two entirely different concepts – you are too smart to confuse both.

    • MixMChess

      Wrong as usual, you don't understand how international law works.

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