New York Times Convicts Spencer of Guilt for Norway Murders

Robert Spencer is the director of Jihad Watch and author of the New York Times bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Arab Winter Comes to America: The Truth About the War We're In, is now available.


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Finally, a word on the Times hit piece, in which I am a significant presence, and yet neither Scott Shane nor anyone else at the Times bothered to contact me for any comment whatsoever.

“Killings in Norway Spotlight Anti-Muslim Thought in U.S.,” by Scott Shane in the New York Times, July 24 (thanks to all who sent this in). The first clue as to the bias of Scott Shane comes in the title’s reference to “Anti-Muslim Thought,” as if I am fighting against human beings, rather than against a radically intolerant and repressive ideology. Seven years ago here at Jihad Watch I had an exchange with an English convert to Islam. I said:

“I would like nothing better than a flowering, a renaissance, in the Muslim world, including full equality of rights for women and non-Muslims in Islamic societies: freedom of conscience, equality in laws regarding legal testimony, equal employment opportunities, etc.”

Is all that “anti-Muslim”?

My correspondent thought so. He responded: “So, you would like to see us ditch much of our religion and, thereby, become non-Muslims.”

In other words, he saw a call for equality of rights for women and non-Muslims in Islamic societies, including freedom of conscience, equality in laws regarding legal testimony, and equal employment opportunities, as a challenge to his religion. To the extent that they are, these facts have to be confronted by both Muslims and non-Muslims. But it is not “anti-Muslim” to wish freedom of conscience and equality of rights on the Islamic world — quite the contrary.

[...] His manifesto, which denounced Norwegian politicians as failing to defend the country from Islamic influence, quoted Robert Spencer, who operates the Jihad Watch Web site, 64 times, and cited other Western writers who shared his view that Muslim immigrants pose a grave danger to Western culture.

Jihad Watch commenter Kinana of Khaybar analyzed these 64 citations here, and concluded:

“Breivik himself has apparently ‘quoted’ Robert Spencer by pasting in large unprocessed chunks of material from 3 different sources–the documentary, the crusades piece, and the article on Muslim persecution of Christians. Needless to say, Breivik never in his approximately 1500-page ‘compendium’ quotes Spencer as supporting his (Breivik’s) ‘revolutionary’ views, values, methods, proposals, and objectives.”

The Times piece continues:

More broadly, the mass killings in Norway, with their echo of the 1995 bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City by an antigovernment militant, have focused new attention around the world on the subculture of anti-Muslim [sic] bloggers and right-wing activists and renewed a debate over the focus of counterterrorism efforts.

17,000+ Islamic jihad terror attacks since 9/11. Two non-Muslim terrorists: Tim McVeigh and, sixteen years later, Anders Breivik. And Scott Shane suggests that the “focus of counterterrorism efforts” should be shifted from Islamic jihadists to “the subculture of anti-Muslim bloggers and right-wing activists.”

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  • Supreme_Galooty

    Years of plagarism, made up "news," editorials masquerading as news, and all around shoddy practices, have resulted in a well deserved decline in readership and circulation for the New York Times. Additionally, their once splendid reputation is significantly tarnished, their revenues are down, their stock price is way down, and their future is grim. This is as it should be.

    As for all those jolly Musselmen one can only hope they are put out of their misery sooner rather than later. A more benighted collection of sadists, rapists and liars would be hard to imagine. The only bright light in this plague of murderers is that people in the world who are otherwise tolerant of other people's religions are starting to wake up to the fact that Islam is not a religion at all, but rather a destructive political movement, and as such is not worthy of the protections and respect accorded REAL religions.

    • tarleton

      Islam is christianities malignant and deviant little brother…a juvenile delinquent that has failed miserably to mature and grow up and is now stuck in a state of ''arrested development''…it's essentially a medieveal desert cult that has failed to gro and change with the times
      If you cast your mind back 600 years those xian nutters were of a somewhat similar frame of mind , but science and the enlightenment has changed all that

      • Abelard

        Yes, there WERE some nutters of a "Christian" sort then; but on closer examination you'll find that most people didn't even truly KNOW what Christianity was supposed to be about!!! Much of what was taught by the authorities of the time, both state and Church, was NOT actual Christian doctrine. Not until the 16th century, with the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, did people truly start discovering as much (it had often been obscured since the 4th century AD, in spite of the various Church-councils, due to barbarian invasions plus the perennial desires of various potentates for absolute power!).

        Otherwise, the "Enlightenment" and the excessive love of science (which "per se" doesn't teach ANYTHING about morality!!!) has done at least as much good as evil – from the humanism of the "Enlightenment" and, before that, the "Renaissance" happen to stem Marx and Engels, leading to Ljéñin, Stáljin, Mao, Pol Pot and their ilk – including Hitler! [If you study what "National Socialism" really was, you'll see how many similarities happen to be present, as with ALL totalitarian concepts, including Islâm!!!!]

  • Andy Gill

    If you've pissed off the taqiyya merchants at the NYT Robert, you are doing your job. Keep up the good work.

    • Jhon of Indonesia

      Taqiyya Merchant! You are absolutely correct. These days media outlets care only about profit, not about truth!

      • Natalie Goodfellow

        News Corp and it's Fox news is another one. What ever happened to honesty and integrity?

        • Marco

          Did you know that Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal Alsaud is the second largest News Corporation shareholder behind Rupert Murdoch…. the same guy that owns the Wall Street Journal, Fox News and the News of the World?

          • Abelard

            Thanks to that Saudi Prince buying Fox News, that organization has gone bad…

      • Marco

        crazy world….. do you really believe that?

  • crackerjack

    It seems the international islamobhobia net family has been caught with its pants down. LOL.

    • Janine Gauthier

      I had a web chat with this spencer criminal a couple of years ago and he's a phoney and liar. He's only in it for the money like this horowitz clown. These articles are only going out to protect thier future cash supplies. And ..LOL… all the morons here are gobling it up like mindless lemmings … while these guys are laughing all the way to the bank.
      Spencer and jerks like him are even worse than hitler…who at least, its awknowledged, had principles, as warped as they were. These guys are only interested in catering to the lowest common denominator … hate, envy, racism, bigotry, a even a bit of sex every once in while. I'm suprised these guys didn't work at the News of the World… or one of Murdochs other scum rags.

      • tarleton

        go home wank spanner

        • mikidiki

          Excuse the ignorance, but what is that? And how does that remark aid the discussion?

          • Rifleman

            How does the absurd comparison to hitler aid any discussion?

          • trickyblain

            Totally agreed. Hitler comparisons are almost always ill-advised, unless talking about Hitler.

            But the "in it for the money" observation is spot on. I've always thought that was obvious from my first days posting here. Propagandists for hire.

          • Rifleman

            Good to see you bud, for some reason, many of my replies to you get nixed. I don't think it's the site, just my bad luck and timing on PC hiccups (It usually takes much longer to reply to your posts than most). It happens less now that I'm on Win7. Hope all is well on your end, I thought of you when I finally got a workstation at work fit for CAD/CAM. If I remember correctly you were or are in that line of work.

            You're right, comparrisons to hitler are usually admissions to lack of a real argument, whatever the political persuasion, like throwing the race card.

          • trickyblain

            Good to see you as well!

            I was doing CAD documentation for a while about six years ago when I was working for an engineering firm. I do miss watching tha C&C machine in action. I'm now doing what I was before that — business advocacy (don't laugh; I work very well with "fiscal" conservatives). I have Win 7 at work and it's stable, but at home I have an iMac, which rocks… Crazy times lately in this crazy world, eh?

      • DogWithoutSlippers

        A lot of people are pure idiots – YOU are one of them!

      • Rifleman

        Worse thatn hitler? yea right…

      • CliveD

        Truer words were never spoken.

    • Harry Goldfarb

      and now they're all scattering like rats.

      It wasn't me! I swear! I preach peace! I do! seriously! you gotta believe me! Ahhh come on!!!
      lol

      • kafir4life

        allahu snackbar to ya Hershel….allahu snackbar!

    • Kerry R jennings

      islamobhobia please explain this term and after that Juvenile delinquency in English please ????

  • SHmuelHaLevi

    Why would a normal looking Norwegian meticulously plan and execute a most gruesome mulitple murder?
    Because, intentionally, STRESS RAISERS in the form of aggresive, murderous islam have been implanted into acestral cultures by certain "elites", and not just in Norway. But in Norway it caused an expected reaction to islam raping, stealing,aggresively pursuing dominance and replacement..
    Not by chance Israelitists AKA Peresites, the local brand of such traitors created a similar condition in Erezt Israel under the auspices of… Oslo. Coincidence? Not in the least.
    ANYWHERE were islam is implanted mayhem ensues. Either by the gruesome decapitating, torturing, raping, mass murdering, thieving islamists themselves OR…
    In reaction to the STRESS RAISER factor that islam creates in those cultures they invade.
    Either way, islam is guilty directly or indirectly.

    • Gerald Benjamin

      I bet you don't have a job that requires analytical skills…or for that matter anything that's relevant to anything or anybody. To be honest i hope you're unemployed and live in deep hole all by yourself. So you can't harm anyone or anything.

      • Janine Gauthier

        Agreed.. Security Services take note of this guy… for the our country's sake.

      • SHmuelHaLevi

        LOL I am a former Senior – Fellow Engineer at the highest level of US Military work. I hold patents flying to defend moronic jackasses like you two.
        Lovet it! I hit the nail right on folks. There is the reason for monsters to raise. Islam and islam lickers.
        As to jobs. I am retired with honors, but since imbeciles produced today cannot hold their two brain cells in place I am still called to provide the most excellent services at several Mlitary and std. research facilities.
        BTW: My books are published both in English and Hebrew since 1982.
        ANALITICAL skills.? You jest! Ask the Iranians… and soon others.
        Whahaha Security services…. Soon will take care of sold out items.

        • Simon A

          LOL… books? analytical skills? spelling? grammar?

          I think Gerald provided some very sound advice. Get a shovel and start digging.

          • SHmuelHaLevi

            Folks! The subject THINKS! A quantum advance from plyopithecus or is it plesiadapis? NAH… Probalby a true member of the PILTDOWN "man" society. Whahahaha LOL
            I must agree with you on that at times I do not edit well enough.
            Specially when I address irrelevant folk.
            You could possibly find better spelling in my books published by the University of Tel Aviv, but in the other hand it would a waste of time to provide you advanced Engineering material. In fact the pestilence out of the NYTis probably the best match for you folk.
            But I care… Would you fellows be more at ease if I slam you in Spanish, French, Hebrew, Latin rather than English? Please let me know.

          • Simon A

            Time to go now Levi. You're being called.

            Levi to Frozen Foods, Levi to Frozen Foods!!

          • Stephen_Brady

            You're quite right that advanced engineering material would be wasted on me! My PhD is in Philosophy, especially, existentialism and the phenomenology of Martin Heidegger, which would say much about Breivik's mindset, prior to his attacks.

            I understood what you said in your original post, however, and found it to be well-reasoned. Perhaps, for the benefit of knucle-draggers, you could restate it in the most simple language possible.

          • SHmuelHaLevi

            Thank you for your review and suggestions. I'll try to formulate a clearer comment. Horrors such as those in Norway or the many caused by islamic people, follow a very clear procees that we must expose and deal with before worse things will happen.
            I tried responding earlier but the link broke down and my response lost.
            If the thread is still open tomorrow I'll try again.

            Cordially
            Sam

    • Marisa

      I find it interesting this lunatic never touched a Mosque or anything remotely Islamic and truly wonder what his loyalty is to.

  • Janine Gauthier

    Agreed..

    Security Services take note of this guy… for the our country's sake.

    • Supreme_Galooty

      Folk like yourself are un-American, and not worthy of the basic protections or respect afforded actual citizens. Evil (the marshalling of the forces of death) and ignorance are the chief identifiers of your fellow travelers. Shut up. Listen. Learn something.

      • CliveD

        How rude!

        • Supreme_Galooty

          Yes. Exactly. I have no desire to extend courtesy of any kind toward these vicious cretins.

        • Rifleman

          It beats getting your head cut off by some jerk chanting aluha snackbar (Thanks Kafir4life, lol, I'm adopting that one).

    • SpiritOf1683

      For our country's sake? Your country ought to be Iran or Pakistan, for that is where you belong. And every man and hs dog knows you would fight tooth and nail to avoid exile to either of those two countries and stay in the West amongst the Christians and Jews you despise so much.

  • DogWithoutSlippers

    Newspapers come, newspapers go………….NYT's is on its way out!
    So now they try to hang their type on any controversial happenstance
    to sell their pulp rag. Spenser is a beacon of light in this most troubled
    and dangerous world. What we have here is a lone nut, a very sick
    person who has desecrated and used a diety to justify his sick mind.

    • Hugh Swindon

      Pulp Rag = News of the World = Rupert Mudoch – Foxnews =- NY Post = Wall Street Journal

      • Rifleman

        Nice comparrison between a tabloid and the NYslimes. They compare well.

  • fnord

    Oh SPencer, is it so hard for you to say "If my writings have inspired this gruesome deed, I am sorry"? Just sad.

    • Murray

      it is very depressing to see someone like this Spencer moron just continuing peddling the hate machine.

      • SpiritOf1683

        It is even more depressing that leftist oafs like yourself live in the West, sucking off the teats of which you wish to destroy. And as you hate the West so much, why don't you go and live in Iran?We know why. Its the same reason that the Western Commies of the 1960s wouldn't live in the Soviet Union for all the gold on earth.

        • Harry Goldfarb

          Teats? Is that allowed here?

          • Rifleman

            Only if you spell it right.

        • Rifleman

          Don't be depressed, Spirit, be amused.

      • kafir4life

        Hi Murray! That was in intesting statement. I would love to get some examples from you. If Mr. Spencer is running a hate machine, I'd understand your depression, but I've read much of his stuff. To what specifically are you referring?

      • Rifleman

        Enjoy your depression, Murray, it fits.

    • mikidiki

      You should have advised, "if a total misunderstanding of my views and writings have inspired this gruesome deed, it is a sad reflection on Norwegian society."

    • Angel

      Because that the narrative of your is a pile of crap, not to put too fine a point on it, it hard to say because that would be a lie. I know people like you can't a make a distinction between the truth and a lie. Because you live in perpetual delusion. Truth is relative to you so you use it only when it serves your agenda. You know what is sad? YOU ARE!!

      • Kevin P Bong

        AH! The font of ALL truth has spoken!!! Yay! Great One!! YAY, YAY, YYYAAYYYY!!!

        lol…

        • Supreme_Galooty

          Angel aims the hammer at the head of the nail….His tongue is between his teeth, his eyes bulging in concentration, AND HE STRIKES!!!!

          Alas, Angel is led away weeping, his thumb a crushed mass of protoplasm.

          • Rifleman

            LOL, Angel should stay away from framing hammers. Not that I haven't made a mess of mine, but I've swung one millions of times. One to set, one to drive home.

    • guest

      spencer only exposes the islamic mindset and ideology.he does you all a favor. if this killer in norway ,for whatever reason reads these facts written by spencer or anyone, then that has NOTHING to do with spencer or anybody else. in fact official copies of islamic books are available in almost any language, so forget spencer, just pick up or borrow a copy and read for yourselves!!!
      as for the oslo killer, if he were truly anti islamic, he would have chosen moslem victims and not europeans . it just doesnt make any sense. in fact there might be some really devious background to these murders. it seems the only faction benefitting is the islamists themselves!!! that is truly bizarre. this is like planting this guy as an excuse to end all talk of islamic expansionist and terroristic ideologies. we may never know the truth. another possibility is that the gut is a paranoid case with twisted thinking all over?/

    • KathleenP

      Why should he say that? Spencer, a writer I have been reading for years and whose integrity and consistency is unparalleled, no more owes an apology than J.D. Salinger owes the world an apology for "inspiring" the murder of John Lennon. Evil psychopaths choose to be "inspired" but whatever their twisted minds want. Apparently Brevik also mentioned the writings of Ghandi as one of his inspirations. Are we to demand a posthumous apology from him, too?

  • kafir4life

    I tried to use the NYT to line my cat's litter box. He just looked up and said "that's redundant". I suspect there are more people commenting on that rag than actually read it.

    • Walter

      I'm pretty sure there's been several occasions when your cat must have tried to cover you up with sand after finishing his business.

      • kafir4life

        Walter! That is so very clever what you did there! We're really quite impressed!! In a little over a month, that short yellow bus will be coming by to take you back to school, and you should be THRILLED that you'll have the same teachers as last year, but the kids will be different, and be at least a year younger than you.
        Study hard!!

    • SHmuelHaLevi

      LOL. My kids used it, (Sunday edition), to dress the gerbels cage. A fine product for the job…

      • Harry Goldfarb

        It's a good thing you buy it. Try reading it as well. If you struggle with the words, or the size of the print… read it on line and increase the magnification of your screen.

        • kafir4life

          No Hershel, I don't buy it. Nobody does. Look at their sales and stock. We can't be giving any of our hard EARNED money to that gaggle of creeps. It can be found in recycle bins in liberal neighborhoods. I read quite well, and my reading glasses make the print just right clearly see. But I do appreciate the concern.
          Do you actually PAY for a subscription to the NYT online??? YOU'RE the one??!!

          • Harry Goldfarb

            Apologies, I guess you support Fox news and Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal Alsaud, the second largest News Corporation shareholder behind Rupert Murdoch

        • kafir4life

          sorry hershel….I guess I "don't" read that well. I thought you were addressing me, not Levi.

  • BklynToBoca (Twitter)

    The Norwegian who committed this crime is a sick monster who is solely responsible for his actions.

    Spencer provides factual light unto the dark side of the political theological movement and true nature and Sharia goals of Islam.

    While we’re at it; Shmuel Halevi, thank you for your service.

  • http://jc.does-it.net Gene W.

    This battle that is raging at the world level down to each individual is a war between the influences of Satan and righteousness. If you are not adopted into or belong to the spiritual Judeo-Christian kingdom, then you may be blinded and cannot see this clearly and I suggest you verify the certainty of eternal life. Until you do, your life will end no better than the Muslim's.

    God (and His believers) loves every person and desires none will perish in Hell, but those not knowing the need for, asking for and accepting Christ's forgiveness is their rejection of eternal life in God's presence.

    Seek Salvation and God's grace if you lack certainty of eternal life with God.

    • Trish Gonsale

      Board up the house and buy the guns and ammo. Jesus always said that you should kill your fellow man before he kills you.

      Well I'm pretty sure he said that.

      • Rifleman

        Jesus said to protect yourself with deadly force (the sword) to the detriment of your comfort (the cloak), if necessary.

    • Bernie G

      Jesus hated muslims and said they will all rot in hell for what they did. Or did he say something about loving your enemies… and turning the other cheek. You know … i can't really remember anymore.

      • Harriett Farger

        I know… it's like animal farm. I myself thought Jesus stood for love and compassion and forgiveness… but perhaps I'm mistaken.

        • Rifleman

          Jesus told no one to be so open minded their brain falls out. Suicide is a sin.

      • http://jc.does-it.net Gene W.

        Wrong …Muslims did not exist untill 700 years after Jesus was born !

        Unless they become a 'born again believer by accepting forgivenss of sins offered by the sacrifice of Jesus" it is true that they will perish along with all others who refuse to accept the Biblical teaching of Salvation.

        • Harriett Farger

          the Catholic Church teaches that through the graces Jesus won for humanity by sacrificing himself on the cross, salvation is possible even for those outside the visible boundaries of the Church. Separated Christians and even non-Christians, if in life they respond positively to the grace and truth that God reveals to them through the mercy of Christ may be saved.

          • Harriett Farger

            Catholics believe that people, even those who are not explicitly Christian, have the moral law written in their hearts, according to Jeremiah 31:33 (prophecy of new covenant): "I will write my law on their hearts." St. Justin wrote that those who have not accepted Christ but follow the moral law of their hearts (logos) follow God, because it is God who has written the moral law in each person's heart. Though he may not explicitly recognize it, he has the spirit of Christ.

          • Supreme_Galooty

            "Seek not the Law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, …in everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven and the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves…. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart, in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights….I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God." – Jesus of Nazareth

          • A Kaufman

            It looks like you get a real kick out of telling people you don't agree with that they're going to hell.

            a Catholic Friend once told that is was a mortal sin (automatic ticket to hell) to do that. Oh the irony.

            Do not judge lest thee be judged.. i thought was the expression she used. I'm pretty sure it was that.

          • Supreme_Galooty

            Are you drunk? Or just drane bamaged?

          • A Kaufman

            LOL… on the contrary. I just call it as i see it.

            Go back and read your bible buddy.

            …and as a wise nun once said… don't come back until you've redeemed yourself.

          • Supreme_Galooty

            OK. Let's see….Sober? Check! No drane bamage? Check!

            So what's your point? It is certainly not germane to the overall flow of commentary, nor does it pertain in the slightest fashion to what I posted.

            Are you SURE you're alright?

      • Rifleman

        A slap on the cheek is insult, an invitation to violence, cutting off the head is deadly force. If one values life, one must be willing to protect it from evil with deadly force if necessary.

    • tarleton

      Stop using this secular website to promote your moronic fundamentalist beliefs….most of the readers of FPM don't want to hear your creepy religious views
      You xian fundies are just the non violent version of the same psychosis those moslems promote …you creeps are all out of your rational minds ….GOOD GRIEF!

      • Janine Gauthier

        In some cases…not so non-violent. Norway? Wacko Texas anyone?

        • Rifleman

          Those ATF agents were pinned in the yard and out of ammo (They commited tactical suicide). Not to excuse the perv koresh, but the davidians could have killed every one of them, and didn't. You need to read the Norwegian terrorist's manifesto, he put darwin and secularism above Christianity.

      • Supreme_Galooty

        Sakahachi

  • jacob

    What I would like to ask all these morons blaming SPENCER is just one question:

    If he was actually full of ISLAPHOBIA, how come he didn't enter a mosque instead
    and killed all that were in the place ???

    But what happens is that, as the Mexican proverb states, anyone can throw sh..t
    against the wall but only tbhe experts can make it stick…

    And none of the morons and pseudointellectuals blaming SPENCER is any such
    expert….

    This guy was plain bonkers and what makes me laugh is that the most he can be
    punished with is 30 years in jail…

    And as to the idiots at the New York Times, I wouldn't put past this guy he was
    "persuaded" by powerful and very convincing arguments such as palm greasing
    to bray the way he did in his article.
    But what's needed now is for responsible people of New York to cancel their subscriptions and let the NYT go the way that similar one of LA went not long ago….

  • logdon

    Note as soon as the lovely, liberal left sticks it's oar in the whole tone drops to ad hominem slander, insult and frothing rage.

    What is wrong with these people which propels such anger? People for whom the idea of debate is a one sided slug fest littered with ludicrous straw men and insane comparison.

    I could talk of their even more insane ideas of cultural relativity but in reality they are too dumb to get it or even understand the argument.

    In reality these so called democrats are actually rejecting democracy because in their eyes they're always right and therefore opposition is always wrong.

    Can't they understand that their censorous ways of blocking free speech and debate is precisely what drove this unhinged psycho to commit his unhinged psychopathic act?

    Do they understand the concept of balance which is the linchpin of democracy.

    And on the subject of balance would they even acknowledge the disproportionality between 17500 post 9/11 jihadi homicidal attacks against two right wing atrocities?

    Or that Christians and the moderate right have rigorously denounced this attack whilst a huge proportion of Islamists openly celebrate their orgies of killing?

    We certainly do need to fear and combat the onset of shariah which like a carnivore worm is devouring the world.

    We should also fear these self righteous blockheads whose heads are so far up their lilly white fundaments that the concept of dhimmidom is either a total unknown or a shruggable irritation which will not affect them.

    History is the perfect model based as it is on past fact. They need to read a few books on Islamic imperialism before spouting.

    Then again these books do contain long words. Maybe a stretch too far.

    • M Goldblatt

      You must be a big fan of the nazis. They did the same thing. Twisted 'facts' about jews fed to the masses over and over again led to the brainwashing of the population and then to holocaust. Is this what you want to see happen to muslims?

      I'm sure otherwise perfectly reasonable germans were convinced that the jews were swindling the population or whatever the myriad of complaints were and that they would be better off as a nation if they were turfed out or exterminated. For the good of thier country and it's survival.

      It's shocking that history, as you say, is repeating itself.

      • Michael W

        What is profoundly offensive is a Jew attempting to couch the very legitimate criticism of Islam as a comparable to the diabolical propaganda machine of the National Socialists.

        What is the underlying implication here if I may be so bold as to inquire? It would seem from comments like yours that we run the risk of an "Islamophobic" initiated "Muslim" Holocaust? Absurd, beyond absurd. More than that it does a disservice to the memory of so many Jews who died as a result of a spiritually, morally and functionally corrupt government. A functionally corrupt government headed by a leader as corrupt, and more importantly as delusional as Breivik. A leader who was on close speaking terms with the equally corrupt and diabolical Grand-Mufti of Jerusalem. A leader who, like Breivik (if indeed you explore the twisted manifesto of his which is available) was not anti-Islam or even an Islamophobe for that matter, but rather saw a specific an useful role for Islam in his own twisted machinations for world domination.

        Please , please do not compare the two. Please , please for the sake of those who died, may their memories be for a blessing, do not callously disregard the real lesson of the Nazi propaganda complex. That is the knowledge it gives us to recognize when propaganda and the propaganda machine are being used in a way that would create an environment for such a "holocaust" to repeat itself. In that I would agree with you. Today as we sit here, there is certainly a proliferation of propaganda reflective of the type and style of used by the Nazis. However, I would suggest that the perpetrators of such a propaganda war and their intended victims are somewhat different than the candidates you would seem so ready to suggest.
        In fact, I would suggest that as a Jew, you would consider looking much closer to home to understand who comprises some of the more intended victims.

        I can assure you that I as a Jewish husband, as a Jewish father; I am definitely doing that!!!!

        • A Kaufman

          So you see a difference between victimising muslims and victimising jews. Forget about the holocaust and nazi germany. You seeing victimising, stereotyping and vilifying muslims as legitimate and victimising, stereotyping and vilifying jews as illegitimate?

          That's staggering and probably why I agree that sites like this should be monitored by the security people.

          • Rifleman

            Oh, those poor muslim victims…

          • SpiritOf1683

            Muslims aren't being victimized, unless they are being victimized by their own kind. And they certainly aren't being victimized by the West. if anything, Muslims victimize infidels. When famine strikes in a Muslim nation, who gives food and medical aid? The West and Israel. Does the reast of the Muslim world? No! And we get repaid with 9/11 and the bodies of US Marines being dragged through Mogadishu, whilst Israel gets rockets fired into Ashkelon and Sderot in return for supplying Gazans with food, water, gas and electricity. Muslims aren't victims of infidels – they are victims of Islam.

      • logdon

        And thus in one fell swoop, my case is proven. 'You must be a big fan of the Nazis'?

        You make that disgusting comment with not one shred of evidence to back it yet off you spout your meanigless, cliched and puerile ad hominem insults.

        They killed my Uncle, wounded my Father and bombed my native city to smithereens. Does that make you feel better?

        PS
        Have you, by any chance read the HAMAS charter Mr or Ms Goldblatt?

        Grow up!

        • M Goldblatt

          …and remarkably if what you say is true about your family…. you've sadly learned absolutely nothing from it.

          • logdon

            If what I say is true?

            You are truly a disgusting creature.

            Your replies reveal a perverted mentality which so revels in its own self righteousness that any slur is permitted and any ignorance elevated to the status of fact.

            Like many of the left living in a constant state of arrested development your childish insults are more at home in a schoolyard than this serious site.

            Adding to that, evidence free, scattershot accusation is the mark of the true fascist. You really need help.

          • M Goldblatt

            If what you say is true???

            You have a reputation on this site as a rampant pathological liar.

            A serious site???

            LOL!!!

          • logdon

            And with that I'll leave you with my first comment.

          • coyote3

            Well everyone has to be something, you have a reputation as a rampant pendejo. You can't change that.

          • Rifleman

            Then why are you here?

  • mrbean

    Media Matters and API are condeming Glenn Beck for referring to the Workers Youth League as similar to Hitler Youth The Workers' Youth League (Bokmål: Arbeidernes Ungdomsfylking, Nynorsk: Arbeidaranes Ungdomsfylking, or AUF) is the youth organization affiliated with the Norwegian Labour Party. AUF was formed in April 1927, following the merger of Left Communist Youth League and Nationalist Socialist Youth League of Norway. Hmmmm… weren't the Nazi youth affiliated with the Nationalist Socialist Workers Party too? Hmmmm….

  • patroitwork

    The New York Times has convinced me that Al Gore is responsible for the Unibomber and Michael Moore for 9/11.

  • LindaRivera

    Robert Spencer is a HUGE Hero and famous for fighting for the safety, protection and FREEDOM of ALL Peoples and ALL religions and EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL UNDER THE LAW.

    Is this why anti-America, anti-Free World New York Times HATES Robert Spencer so much that they are deliberately inciting to hate and even bring about the murder of Free World hero, Robert Spencer?

    I hope Robert Spencer will sue to the max New York Times and other media who are ruthlessly exploiting the murders of children for cheap propaganda to demonize and hate incitement against Spencer.

    The New York Times and other media who are engaging in this sick, demonic character assassination of Spencer have a moral responsibility to provide Spencer with bodyguards 24/7. Bodyguards of Spencer's choosing. I would NOT trust New York Times choice of bodyguards.

    • Cheryl L

      really? LOL…

      do your self-esteem a favour linda and stop typing ,…you're making a right wing mindless idiot of yourself.

    • Cheryl L

      Linda do your self-esteem a favour and stop making a right-wing idiot of yourself.

    • Cheryl L

      Seriously,

      Put the keyboard away!

  • Gordie

    I find all this stuff unbelievable

    • Wayne

      What’s so unbelievable about it?

      • Gordie

        Well here we have a guy who admittedly spent 9 years of his life writing and compiling 1500 pages of material backing up his hatred of Muslims and the basic precepts of contemporary Western Society.

        • Wayne

          He was clearly obsessed and clearly impressed by the thoughts of the anti-muslim stuff that he’s read.

          • Gordie

            He was clearly impressionable. He’s what? 32 yrs old? So he started doing this when he was 22 or 23. His own family have said it would have been better if he’d killed himself so he doesn’t appear to have had much of a family life. He doesn’t appear to have had anyone around him to temper or direct his anger and thoughts.

          • Wayne

            That’s sad.

          • Gordie

            It is sad…but it’s also scary. I mean do you think he’s the only one with a crap family life, no positive guidance in his life left and to digest the thoughts of all the negativity he became obsessed with on his own?

          • Wayne

            I never really thought about that. It is a scary thought. Admittedly. That picture of him in the car with that red sweater on and that grin. I can’t make him out.

          • Gordie

            I can’t either. But I do know that he’s not alone. He’s not the only one. It’s like buying something when you-re convinced that it’s the only deal, and sure enough there’s a better deal somewhere else. You just have to be patient. It’s like with these guys. There’s never just one mad man. There’s always someone else who will push the boundary even further.

          • Wayne

            Now that IS scary. And true. There always is. But what do you do?

          • Gordie

            That’s the million dollar question.

          • Wayne

            Indeed, I mean it’s not like you can ban bad parenting. Or lonliness

          • Gordie

            You got that right!

          • Wayne

            You can’t ban computers either or the crazy stuff that gets sent out on the internet

          • Gordie

            Ya, the only thing I can think of clearing up the legal definition of stuff that’s essentially hate speech. Bigotry, intolerance. Victimising.

          • Wayne

            What about the free speech thing?

          • Gordie

            How can someone think it’s free speech to be able to spread the stuff I mentioned.

          • Wayne

            Ya

          • Gordie

            I mean, if you think about it. Germany in the 20’s and 30’s may have had ‘free speech’ too. So Hitler was allowed to preach his evil crap about jews and publish his book…mein kemfph ..or whatever it’s called. And if they had a sensible law to ban that kind of stuff in print and in public, it probably would have kept him out of power. I mean he won an election for crying out loud. If the oxygen of his ideas was cut off, he would probably have withered away and never heard about him.

          • Wayne

            But they didn’t and he ended up responsible amongst some other for the death of what 25 million people? 25 million? Geez! What a crazy world.

          • Gordie

            And so the same thing with these guys like spencer and the others. I say cut them off and we go back to promoting real american values like tolerance and togetherness. We don’t need this nasty stuff. You know someone wrote this earlier and it’s true. The Nazis spent years telling the germans that the jews were the ones who were responsible for all the ills of the country. And they backed it up with pundits, and speeches and supposedly scholarly books a thesis here and there and so. And sure enough the people believed it. They say if you repeat a lie often enough the people will eventually believe it’s true. And that is true.

          • Wayne

            Sad but true.

          • Jelly

            You know what's sad? one guy posting under two different pseudonyms to debate with himself while voting up his own comments…Geta life, buddy.

          • Rifleman

            Because it's free speech?

          • Rifleman

            Thought crime? where have I heard that before?

          • Rifleman

            He was apparently impressed with darwin and Gandhi too, should we ban them?

          • Rifleman

            It wasn't muslims he attacked.

  • LindaRivera

    ETERNAL SHAME on the New York Times and other guilty media who demonize Spencer and IGNORE the suffering, atrocities and mass murders of Blacks by the Muslim rebels in Libya-the TERRORIST rebels who are backed by the White House and NATO.

    BLACK PEOPLE MUST HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS! G-D help them!
    http://www.uruknet.de/?s1=1&p=79844&s2=24
    Watch this linked video of an anti-Black lynch mob and you will understand why The New York Times, CNN, The Washington Post, the BBC and other major news organizations have never followed up on The Wall Street Journal's June 21 article about ethnic cleansing of Black Libyans in Misurata by the "Brigade for the purging of slaves, Black Skin."

    That Brigade, of Libya's so-called rebels, backed by NATO and the White House, eliminated the Black population of Misurata and promised to do the same to Black Libyans once they seized control of the city of Tawergha, 25 miles away.

    Major news outlets are deliberately ignoring or downplaying the racialist-motivated atrocities against Black people being committed by the terroristic "rebels." If such crimes were being committed against White people, NATO would be bombing these so-called rebels instead. No wonder the African Union, often divided on issues, have taken a common stand on Libya and pushing for a peace proposal –ceasefire, constitution and elections– rather than allowing vengeful and blood-thirsty Benghazi to prevail in Libya.

    On August 13, there will be a major demonstration and march in Harlem, starting at 10 AM at 110 Street and Malcolm X Boulevard to protest the U.S. involvement in NATO's war of aggression against Libya.

    Link: blackstarnews.com/news/122/ARTICLE/7536/2011-07-23.html

    Benghazi "Rebels" Lynching Blacks In Libya
    http://www.uruknet.de/?s1=1&p=79844&s2=24

    Click on the above link to watch video.

    I urge all who care about justice, freedom and human rights for ALL people to attend the New York protest.

    • Natalie Goodfellow

      zzzzzzz….zzzzzzzz

      BORING!!!! Linda! you're putting us to sleep already!!!

      • Jhon of Indonesia

        @Natalie Goodfellow

        Now I understand why pogroms committed by muslims to the minorities have not find their way to western media, it is because many westerners like you do not care about people that have not same skin color like yours!.

        • SpiritOf1683

          The fact is that Western Leftists don't care about anyone who is not a Muslim or is not a vicious antisemite.

          • Jhon of Indonesia

            Man like Robert Spencer try to tell the west about the oppression of minorities in islamic country, that show how much he care about the minorities and not racist at all, it is the western media and leftist whom careless about the minorities that is racist! because to them only them and their interest mattered, the life of yellow/black/brown skinned minorities in islamic countries are the least they care about. Their indifference is racism!.

      • Rifleman

        So take a nap.

  • http://historyscoper.angelfire.com tlwinslow

    The close-minded leftist clueless NYT is probably struggling to get some Saudi grease money to survive its coming bankruptcy, so who cares what they think? They should have hired Robert Spencer long ago as one of their prized op-ed writers. Unlike the NYT, Spencer can't be bought.

    Breivik was smart to study Spencer's writings, it's just that he put two and two together and got five, and worse, decided to become a child killer, sliming himself forever, think of Pharaoh, Herod, and Darth Vader. If only he had just assassinated one uber left politician and stopped there. That doesn't change the fact that Muslim immigration is a horrible threat to the West and its civilization, because a study of history shows what they have done in country after country that underestimated them.

    Obviously the leftists are angling toward criminalizing free speech about Muslims, playing into the hands of the Saudis and Sharia, I smell the oil. Too bad for them, the old paper publishing work is on its last legs, and the mighty Internet can't be stifled, so let's all work harder than ever to spread knowledge to the smart people who still think for themselves, and create multiple mirror sites to make it harder to shut us up. Don't forget to publish a 99 cent ebook version free on Kindle.

    My modest offerings are all free, and can be found at:
    http://go.to/islamhistory

    • Natalie Goodfellow

      NY Times is not Saudi owned.

      You're thinking of Fox news!!! LOL…what an idiot.

      • Natalie Goodfellow

        News Corp owner of Foxnews and the NY Post and the ill-fated criminal News of the World in the UK has as it's major shareholder …… none of than this Saudi Prince.

        Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal Alsaud, the second largest News Corporation shareholder behind Rupert Murdoch.

        Nice.

    • trickyblain

      "If only he had just assassinated one uber left politician and stopped there."

      Wow. Just wow.

      • Rifleman

        I gotta agree with you there tricky.

  • Josh A

    I'm worried that with all the muslim immigration into this country that politicians will start pandering to muslims for votes and leave israel and jews in the cold.

    • Adam Leibowitz

      Well it is a worry.

      • A Kaufman

        Of course idiots like Spencer and his incessantly negative propoganda won't do any favours to jews or Israel in the long term. Mark my words.

        Someone said earlier that this peddler of hate, bigotry and intolerance is only in it for the money. I'm pretty sure that they're probably right.

        • SpiritOf1683

          Of course, you ndon't give a damn when your fellow Jews get murdered by hamas and Hezbollah terrorists in Israel. To be honest, you'd have seen Breivik as a hero had he slaughtered Israeli Jews instead.

    • kafir4life

      Start? Start???? Are you kidding me??
      Even the kapo Chuckles Schumer has abandoned Israel in order to gain favor with BamO. A call to his office confirmed chuck's willingness to take George Soros old job of collecting property from condemned Jews!
      He even attended Tony D's shahada! Remember him? The revert who's married to Huma of the ummah?

    • Abelard

      They have already started to do so, even "en masse"!!! Worse yet, some Muslims have made it into the ranks of our politicians – they ALL need to be rounded up, disenfranchised and deported out of the West, even if born here (and especially if they converted to Islâm from something else!!!).

      Let it be that I'm an "Islâmophobe": that my ancestors were persecuted by Arab and Turkish Muslims for many centuries, often in exceedingly-CRUEL ways, justifies my hatred for any and all things Islâmic!! Therefore my loathing is not an irrational "phobia" (contrary to what the Commies wish to assert!!!) but a most natural and wholesome reaction to the immigration of these TUMOURS into our midst!!!! Islâm is a cancer that has to be completely and utterly EXCISED from our Western body at all costs!!!!

      I also say all hail and blessings upon Mr. Robert Spencer and Ms. Pamela Geller, on the souls of King Jan Sobieski of Poland, Pope Pius V for inspiring the West to punish the Turks at Lepanto in 1570 and all others who have fought and continue to fight that SATANIC EVIL throughout 1,400 years and right into the present day!!!

      DEATH to Islâm (at least outside of the Islâmic world – and may it die there too!!)!!!! May that chief Satan and Antichrist Muhammad's EVILS (rape, murder, genocide, thievery, pædophilia, extreme misogyny, hate of everybody not his!!) be eternally remembered and loathed through all time until after the Last Judgement!!!!

  • Abdullah Mikail

    Robert,

    The fruit of your labors is pretty bitter, isn't it?

    I told you that you would be judged by the fan base you inspire:

    "Among other sources cited by the manifesto, the "Jihad Watch" blog and its author, Robert Spencer, is cited no less than 162 times, while Daniel Pipes and his Middle East Forum (MEF) gets 16 mentions, according to a tally by the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank here.

    Another blogger, Pamela Geller, and her "Atlas Shrugs" blog is cited 12 times in the manifesto, while the Center for Security Policy (CSP), its president, Frank Gaffney, and CSP's senior fellow for Middle Eastern Affairs, Caroline Glick, appear a total of eight times."

    Breivik is tied to your neck like a dead chicken to an unruly dog…the saddest thing is that people like you hide behind "freedom of speech" to do your evil, and this is the result…I told you the evil you engage in was endangering innocent people but you are an arrogant self promoter and don't care who gets harmed as long as you sell your paper.

    God will hold you both accountable.

    • tony

      and you also Abdullah and you also…

      • SpiritOf1683

        And he is also something who belongs amongst his fellow hate-filled savages in Pakistan and not in the US.

    • kafir4life

      abdullard, aren't you the islamist that used to come here all cowardly telling us what a great religion islam is, and how peaceful it is, but too afraid to take it up with your colleagues who can koranically pick you to pieces?
      Whachu think (I know….I didn't mean that literally) about your colleagues Nasser Jason Abdo, Maj. Hassan, and your co-religionist who's been their religious and ideological mentor?

    • jasonz

      "I told you that you would be judged by the fan base you inspire: " this your prohet mohammed must have been the biggest camelraping coward on the planet as is your god and followers.

  • nightspore

    There's a strange disconnect in all of this. In his NYT piece, Shane characterizes the actions of Breivik as Islamophobic. (Why else would he single out Mr. Spencer as an influence?) If one did not know the actual events, one would never know from Shane's article that Breivik did not attack Muslims, but people associated in his mind with the Left. This makes the whole attempt to implicate Mr. Spencer not only vile but oddly off-target. I don't know whether this is because people like Shane simply cannot process information properly or because they can't let the chance go by to go after their enemies even if their arguments don't make sense. My feeling is that both factors are involved; these people are so used to slanting arguments a certain way that they do this even when it doesn't make sense. This may also be a further instance of the fundamental evasiveness of the contemporary Left; by playing the Islamophobia card, they can avoid facing the fact that this attack was directed at them.

  • guest

    Please, this is exactly the attention Spencer craves. He can't cut it as a scholar so he's gone the provocateur route. Now he has his stage and audience. Enjoy your 15 minutes little man.

  • StrongTEA

    Call the NYT and rant on them instead. There are some genuinely stupid people criticizing Spencer. Maybe they themselves are provocateurs and cowards. That's not a question "guest."

  • Ghostwriter

    Oh boy! Can't we all agree that Brevik is a lunatic and just stay with that? Blaming Robert Spencer and others like him isn't going to bring those dead people back.

  • kafirman

    Both the NYTimes and Islam dehumanize people. Islam mandates a tax on non-believer's "to make them feel oppressed" (Koran 9:29) and allows the raping of non-Muslim women (Koran 4:3) for the satisfaction of Muslim males. So if asked, "Does Islam condone raping of women?" a Muslim answers "no." This is because non-believers are not accorded human rights. Per Islamic logic, having forcible sexual relations with a non-Muslim woman cannot, by definition, be rape. Just so, according to the dehumanizing rules of the Times, whereas Anders Breivik's quotations of Barack Hussein Obama prove that Obama is the messiah, Anders Breivik's quotations of Spencer prove that Spencer is public enemy #1.

  • steven l

    Since Spencer is directly criticized in the NYT by Shane, he should be given the right of response in the NYT.

  • sam000

    Very dear Robert Spencer, connect the dots, you will get the line,
    Obama had multiplied his demands to deal with Ahmadinejad,

    The Mullahs of Iran had accepted Obama's offer of negotiations based on some conditions.

    Restricting you is a part of the Mullahs conditions.
    NY Times is the non official organ of Obama.

  • http://vnnforum.com DeShawn

    Spencer is obviously on the zionist-neocon payrole to try and stir up hate between Christianity and Islam, while the jews sit back and watch in delight. Because hey all these wars in the Middle East are good for only one "nation" (if you can call it that): Israel. Everyone else loses. You can call this black man every name in the book, but it is YOU all should be ASHAMED for the violence and hate you advocate on here.

    • DJJ

      Wow! You need to give us a little more credit than this. I know that I, personally, am more than capable of figuring out that we have a serious Muslim problem and that they would love to do us in, especially Israel. I sure as heck don't need this sight or any other sight for that matter, to tell me this. All anyone has to do is watch and listen. The Muslim world is more than vocal about their wishes. If you refuse to pay attention, that's your problem.

    • SpiritOf1683

      We can also say this black man belongs amongst his Arab masters in Saudi Arabia where he can be called abd. And we can also say that Jewish-invented vaccines and medicines were wasted on antisemitic trash like him. And we can if we want to go the whole hog, say that blacks commit a disproportionate number of crimes for their numbers in the West, and that on average they do far worse academically than Whites, Asian Hindus and Sikhs, and Orientals. Or is telling the truth racist nowadays?

  • sam000

    Attention to all;
    This thug of DeShawn is the Mullah's lobbies in USA

  • coyote3

    More Bravo Sierra, no writing makes anyone committ murder, at least not anyone who is sane. This guy had his own free will. As far as Spencer is concerned, I don't know if I agree with him about everything or not, but I really don't care. There is nothing that he said that violated any criminal statute, not in the United States of America. He has every right to say anything he wants to say, and his readers can be the judge. You can "blame" Spencer all you want, but that is going to make him responsible for anything.

  • Ignominius

    In the UK, the English Defence League are also being pilloried by the main stream media. They are being accused of being the cause and fueling Breiviks actions despite the fact that in his 'manifesto' he clearly states that the EDL are anti-fascist, anti-racist, anti-nazi and believe in the democratic process. He further goes on to say that his Knights Templars are ideologically opposed and calls the EDL , niaive fools. Yet because he conversed with a number of EDL members, the EDL is now a threat to Western civilisation.

    Both Robert Spencer and the EDL are victims of a hatchet job by the main stream media and their socialist/communist puppet masters. By the logic they use, Neville Chamberlain and the British Cabinet of 1938 were Far-right extremist racist Nazis bent on global domination because they had a couple of chats with a certain Herr Hitler.

  • Michael,Canada

    So,following the logic of this article NYT is guilty for Islamo-Fascists atrocities all over the World.

  • Texasron

    The left, and that definitely includes the NYT, can't abide the comments made by Spenser and Gert Wilder. They both bring the truth about Islam in the open.

  • KathleenP

    I also cannot understand why the MSM is focusing so obsessively on Brevik's "Islamophobia." He didn't kill Muslims, he killed native Norwegian kids. Norway is full of Muslim teenagers, they just don't go to Labour Party Youth camps. Not that targeting them would have been any less despicable. Who the hell will ever know why he did what he did; does it even matter in the end? It's just a shame he wasn't taken out along with his innocent victims, or before he was able to fire a shot. The fact that he's still alive and well truly adds insult to injury.

    Robert Spencer has never advocated violence against Muslims, or anyone else. He tells the truth. You can't blame the truth-tellers when some nutjpob claims to have been "inspired" to commit murder by the truth they wrote about. Spencer makes an excellent point. The MSM happily vilifies anyone who dares to paint anything other than a rosy picture of Islam and/or blows a pitiful incident like a doddering elderly preacher burning a Koran all out of proportion and makes it front page news, then refuses to take any responsibility when mass violence results.

  • jasonz

    but toleration, equal rights, not lying ets IS against islam, so at what point do we quit trying to pretend it is not? Islam is a religon for weak men who want to rape muder and molest children, thats it no more or less. they hate anything not like them and activly kill them. they rape and murder children at will and for fun. non believers are killed with glee. and I can go on. so exactly WHAT is the question? What will it take for us as westerners to figure out that ISLAM, not 'radical islam' want nothing more to kill us? I would like for islam to join the modern world too, but they say its against their religoin. they dont want that they want to replace our life with theirs. it is us OR them. the 20%(not even that high i believe) of 'nice muslims' need to either join US or get out of the way. but this pussyfootin kumbaya denial of simple reality is getting people killed. crush islam save the world, any questions?

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  • Bert

    really?

  • Natalie Goodfellow

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  • Rifleman

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  • jasonz

    hi kate this is simple. this has nothing to do with gods or devis or anything like that. 1 group wants what the other group has or does not like the other group and wants to destroy them. thats it, nothing more or less. just because stupid humans built religions around it and want to pretend an omnipitant invisodude gave it to them just complicates things. simply put. Islam wants to kill you. Kill you, enslave you or convert you. thats all they want. they dont want to tolerate you, or understand you, or coexist peacubly and team up. they want you dead. if you were trapped with one and the only way to escape was to work together, islam would kill you and die happy. The only question is are you going to let them kill, enslave, convert you. or not? If these people kill people over teddy bears and samosas, and cartoons, and have been since their founding 1500+ yrs ago, do you honestly think that they will change now or we can reason with them? they want to kill you or be killed by you. choose your option.