Robert Spencer Asks: Did Muhammad Exist?

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Editor’s note: Robert Spencer’s acclaimed new book, Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry into Islam’s Obscure Origins, is now available. To order, click here

One of the jihadists’ most potent psychological weapons is the double standard Muslims have imposed on the West. Temples and churches are destroyed and vandalized, Christians murdered and driven from the lands of Christianity’s birth, anti-Semitic lunacy propagated by high-ranking Muslim clerics, and Christian territory like northern Cyprus ethnically cleansed and occupied by Muslims. Yet the West ignores these depredations all the while it agonizes over trivial “insults” to Islam and Mohammed, and decries the thought-crime of “Islamophobia” whenever even factual statements are made about Islamic history and theology. This groveling behavior confirms the traditional Islamic chauvinism that sees Muslims as the “best of nations” destined by Allah to rule the world through violent jihad.

Even in the rarefied world of academic scholarship, this fear of offense has protected Islam from the sort of critical scrutiny every other world religion has undergone for centuries. Some modern scholars who do exercise their intellectual freedom and investigate these issues, like Christoph Luxenberg or Ibn Warraq, must work incognito to avoid the wrath of the adherents of the “Religion of Peace.” Now Robert Spencer, the fearless director of Jihad Watch and author of several books telling the truths about Islam obscured by a frightened academy and media, in his new book Did Muhammad Exist? challenges this conspiracy of fear and silence by surveying the scholarship and historical evidence for the life and deeds of Islam’s founder.

As Spencer traces the story of Muhammed through ancient sources and archaeology, the evidence for the Prophet’s life becomes more and more evanescent. The name Muhammad, for example, appears only 4 times in the Qur’an, as compared to the 136 mentions of Moses in the Qur’an. And those references to Muhammad say nothing specific about his life. The first biography of Muhammad, written by Ibn Ishaq 125 years after the Prophet’s death, is the primary source of biographical detail, yet it “comes down to us only in the quite lengthy fragments reproduced by an even later chronicler, Ibn Hisham, who wrote in the first quarter of the ninth century, and by other historians who reproduced and thereby preserved additional sections.”

Nor are ancient sources outside Islam any more forthcoming. An early document from around 635, by a Jewish writer converting to Christianity, merely mentions a generic “prophet” who comes “armed with a sword.” But in this document the “prophet” is still alive 3 years after Muhammad’s death. And this prophet was notable for proclaiming the imminent arrival of the Jewish messiah. “At the height of the Arabian conquests,” Spencer writes, “the non Muslim sources are as silent as the Muslim ones are about the prophet and holy book that were supposed to have inspired those conquests.” This uncertainty in the ancient sources is a consistent feature of Spencer’s succinct survey of them. Indeed, these sources call into question the notion that Islam itself was recognized as a new, coherent religion. In 651, when Muawiya called on the Byzantine emperor Constantine to reject Christianity, he evoked the “God of our father Abraham,” not Islam per se. One hundred years after the death of Muhammad, “the image of the prophet of Islam remained fuzzy.”

Non-literary sources from the late 7th century are equally vague. Dedicatory inscriptions on dams and bridges make no mention of Islam, the Qur’an, or Mohammad. Coins bear the words “in the name of Allah,” the generic word for God used by Christians and Jews, but say nothing about Muhammad as Allah’s prophet or anything about Islam. Particularly noteworthy is the absence of Islam’s foundational statement “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.” Later coins referring specifically to Muhammad depict him with a cross, contradicting the Qur’anic rejection of Christ’s crucifixion and later prohibitions against displaying crucifixes. Given that other evidence suggests that the word “muhammad” is an honorific meaning “praised one,” it is possible that these coins do not refer to the historical Muhammad at all.

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  • 2binzion

    It is long overdue that the good people of this world stamp out this virulent form of Islam. Throughout the centuries as Spencer has written in his book, Islamic thugs have been lying in order to intimidate and force people into submission. We are seeing this on a daily basis, from the rantings coming from Iran and even Farakhan. I pray that this book will be successful in opening the minds of good people everywhere so that they realize they must no longer be passive. WE MUST BE STRONG! Otherwise the world is headed once again into the Dark Ages, but this time it will be nuclear.

    • ProgDestroyer

      Sorry, Islam is as much of a religion as Ford Mustangs are a fruit. It is a tyrannical oppressive totalitarian political dogma that is statism hiding behind a fig leaf sized patina of religiosity. It like it's pagan/secular brother marxism needs to be opposed at all cost with the same vigor Ronaldus Magnus dispatched the brother. The first step is to root out and destroy the PC culture and then to start deporting them. Islam is completely incompatible with representational democracy and a free classical liberal society. They are one of the enemies within.

    • ObamaYoMoma

      It is long overdue that the good people of this world stamp out this virulent form of Islam.

      Curious, can you provide any evidence that there is any other form of Islam? Notwithstanding the fact that the crackpot version of Islam Farakhan practices and promotes is not really Islam.

      We are seeing this on a daily basis, from the rantings coming from Iran and even Farakhan.

      Uhm…I can promise you that the bastardized lunatic version of Islam that Farakhan practices is in no way similar to true Islam as practiced in the Islamic world, rendering your moral equivalence utterly absurd. In fact, if Farakhan lived in an Islamic country as opposed to America and advocated the same kind of bastardized lunatic version of Islam he does over here, he would have been executed many decades ago.

    • Admonish

      Mr.Spencer, Seems like that you are so mesmerized and baffled with the astonishing and unparallel personality of Prophet Muhammad that you have lost the common sense. With your line of argument you have proved time and again that you are baised and rather ignorant person. Your argument that Did Muhammad Exist? can be given for any prophet (Ibraheem, Moses, Jesus…)or even for God. Question is does it matter ? If God wants to send his teachings, it could be sent in any way he chooses. So it is the great teachings of Islam which has attracted Billions of people to follow……ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS POINT

  • truebearing

    Fascinating piece, yet not surprising. The political agenda of Islam dominates the purpose of this pseudo-religion and the spirituality of Islam seems to me to be awkward, contrived, and obsessively political. I am certainly no expert, but from what I know, I have concluded that Islam is a cut and paste job from the Middle Ages.

    This revelation about Islam's parasitic history reminds me of what the Left does when they take over a cause, eg. environmentalism. Once in control, they continued to project an environmental message, but it is shrill and false, with a palpable rapacity for political power that is cloaked, but thinly disguised, in the husk of the original movement.

  • crackerjack

    Did Jesus exist? Abraham, Moses, Saul or David? Religious figures are made up of legend, folklore and centuries of manipulation through the religious establishment.

    And theose……."quintessential and powerful Western ideals", didn't prevent the Holocaust, World Wars, slavery etc.

    • RonCarnine

      Crackerjack, your assertion that "Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Saul or David" didn't exist certainly goes against the evidence that exists that argues the opposite. I'm not just talking about religious evidence, but references from secular sources. The evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ is the opposite of the evidence for Mohammed. You further argue since there were World Wars, slavery and the Holocaust this is further "evidence" that Jesus didn't exist. That's kind of like arguing that since, for example, we had a terrible WW2 that Truman didn't exist. How is that evidence? That isn't even a rational argument. We now have evidence that Jesus lived and that evidence exists in the form of manuscripts less than 100 yrs old. New finds of David and his Kingdom have now been found in archaeological excavations in the land of Israel. Further you state that all the ref. to Biblical characters are "…Western ideals". Nothing could be further from the truth. These truths came out of the Middle East, and then the rest of the world, with the West coming in long after the Christian movement was well established.

      • TruthSeeker

        Perhaps one reason few manuscripts of the Holy Quran, unlike New Testament versions, exist is that the people who compiled the official version had variant copies destroyed. Whoops! Did someone just desecrate the Holy Quran????

        Also, Crackerjack doesn't argue what you say he is. He is arguing that the "quintessential and powerful Western ideas" didn't prevent the Holocaust, World Wars (sic), slavery, etc. He overlooks that human nature created all of these, and that Western ideas were the source of the now two centuries-old effort to eradicate slavery.

      • aspacia

        Ron,

        Cracked is an undereducated, illogical liberal.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          Yes.

    • Tom

      We have a picture of Jesus on the Shroud of Turin.

      • intrcptr2

        That shroud is a medieval fraud.
        Recall, Luke mentions that there was a "napkin" over Jesus' face when he was entombed. It would have completely obscured his features.

        • Ricky Michael

          You would find reading more shroud lore interesting I think. There was both a napkin over his face and a shroud burial cloth. Also, the medieval fraud that you assert as yet to be duplicated by anyone. There are a whole lot of theories floating around about how it was made, yet they can't do it, exactly as it exists.

          There is a puzzling 3-dimensional quality embedded into the image that cannot have been done with 2-dimensional painting in any fashion possible. No pigment exists on the cloth. Degraded human blood does. Interesting to say the least.

          This puzzle will never be solved with 100% certainty.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          I believe Luke describes it as a burial cloth.
          Luke 23:53.
          Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid.

          That would seem to indicate the entire body was wrapped.

          • intrcptr2

            Sorry, wrong book, bad memory; http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=J

            The entire body was wrapped, yes. But typically not with a single wrapping around the long axis. And John does indicate that he had a separate cloth over his face.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            I had to go back and check. You're right on what John said.Matt. 27:59 says that the entire body was wrapped.Mark 15:46 says the body was taken down, and wrapped.This is a 3:1 thing that might cause some to doubt the accuracy. I don't see why there wasn't a different additional linen over his face. Remember how badly he was beaten and had the crown of thorns, all that would have caused trauma. And that meant fluids leaking from the wounds. They may have wanted to do both. And it still would have left fluids to leak through one thin layer on his face.I don't see that you're wrong on the small piece over his face, I just don't see where that proves the shroud, or disproves the shroud.I don't need the shroud of Turin to have my faith. I just don't attack it since I'm not Catholic.

      • aspacia

        This is probably not Jesus.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          The false argument they allow us is this.

          Either we prove the shroud is real or they deny the event happened.
          The cruxifiction is an historic event, whether the shroud is authentic or not.

          So, they're working from a flawed position.

    • Paul of Alexandria

      Actually, yes. The Old Testament has been shown to be historically accurate through archeological evidence. It was written as a history by eyewitnesses. Likewise, the Gospels are not simply a collection of stories but are eyewitness accounts collected in such a manner as to be admissible in a court of law. The existence of Josephus is also attested to by non-Christian historians such as Josephus and Tacitus. You might want to check out the podcasts at "Issues, Etc": http://issuesetc.org/2012/03/21/2-the-historical-http://issuesetc.org/tag/historical-reliablilty-o
      and the series on Biblical Chronology with Dr. Andrew Steinmann: http://issuesetc.org/tag/biblical-chronology/feed

      • aspacia

        Yes, Paul,

        I am a Deist, and a historian, but have no doubt that Jesus did live and preach.

    • RoguePatriot6

      "religious establishment"???

      Is this a global organization or something that's bent upon world domination?

    • aspacia

      Cracked,

      Jesus did exist, and this is documented in several nonChristian texts, Josephus comes to mind.

      The problem is that the patriarchs trashed huge amounts of Christian texts during the Council of Nicaea. The Gnostics Bible casts other insights into Jesus and his teachings. It appears that the apostles were very jealous of Mary Magadelene and Jesus was very communal.

      Secularism has caused the death of more people than religion ever did: Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, et al

    • popseal

      Too many contemporaries of Jesus died horrible deaths rather than deny His existence and work in their personal lives for us today to reasonably question His history, to say nothing of His mention once in secular documents of His era. I received Him into my life (as Savior), repenting of my past, and have enjoyed His grace for 41 years since.

    • ProgDestroyer

      I read your comment a bit differently than the others that have posted. You stupidly seem to be saying that in essence that Christian philosophy is responsible for the monstrous actions of the past including the 20th century incarnations. Only a ignorant fool would say that the true believers that followed nazism, marxism and it 41 flavors were Christian based. They were in fact secular with pagan flavoring fool. Why is it with you assclowns that any criticism of the moon-god worshippers must include an even more vigorous assault on the only two religions in the west? Attacking those who won't fight back and would rather smile and pray for you is pathetic and weak. I'll bet you thought you were the tough guy in school because the special needs kids ran from you in fear. You really are richard cranium.

  • Chezwick

    I tend to believe in the historical Muhammad. The portrait of him conveyed in Islam's own canonical texts, the Ahadith and the Sirat Rasul, is of a warlord, a pedophile (Aisha), a mass murderer (the POWs of the Banu Qurayza tribe), a man who solicited the murder of a pregnant poetess and an octogenarian, and someone who advocated changes in date-pollination strategies that resulted in dramatically reduced yields.

    Sure mores change, but even by 7th century standards, this is hardly what one would call a flattering portrait. How improbable that such moral turpitude would be contrived in the building of a false personna.

    • Wallabee

      I think the point is that the legends of Muhammad were a type of political propaganda used to justify the actions of various Islamic conquerors.

      If you were a nasty depraved warlord who wanted to justify your own pedophilia, mass murder, assassinations, polygamy, sexual slavery, thievery, dishonesty etc, etc etc, wouldn't it be very useful to create and/or perpetuate the idea of a divinely sanctioned "model" who not only condoned but practiced these things?

      And if you had the power of the sword to enforce these views, who would argue?

      And if it worked really well for you, why should that same legend not work for others?

      I have this tendency, as you seem to, to think that any "legend" that has had such a significant impact (and heavy toll) on the world would have to be rooted at least somewhat in an historical person.

      But I think Spencer is making some very valid points, and I plan on purchasing the book.

    • Curious

      Can I ask where you read about him being described as a warlord, mass murderer and such, I would like to read up on it. Thanks.

      • Orlando

        Try: Why I am not a Muslim by Ibn Warraq

  • proxywar

    Can i get this on my nook?

    • Eldon

      There's a good chance that your nook can read the kindle version. If not, download a free program called Calibre and you can convert the kindle version to a version that your nook can read.

  • Gamaliel

    Maybe Muhammad didn't exist but that raises some questions. If I was making up stories of a prophet I would give him unlimited powers. When the infidels challenge him to move mountains I'd have him move the mountain not make excuses. Likewise after he claimed to fly on buraq to the heavens I wouldn't have his wife Aisha say that his body was next to her all night. These events described by Islamic texts suggest that a charlatan by the name of Muhammad really did exist.

  • David M

    Robert Spencer has done a great work and I hope the book can change the mind of some muslims who have lost all sense of goodness and humanity and have become the enemy of our civilization. This monster mohammad (imaginary or real) and this islam cult have declared war, by their zombie followers, on our life, freedom and civilization.

  • jacko

    why people do not comment or question Islam is because they are afraid of the brutal primitive and barbaric behaviour of Moslems who reerve the right for themselves to kill and murder all who disagree with their view that Islam and the caliphate is destined to rule over the world. (Salman Rushdie) They compllain that the Jews are taking over the world when it in effect it is their desire to do so and they are gradually succeeding due to the weakkneed Christian world who are frightened of offending them and the politicians who rely on their votes to cling on to their lucrative seats.

    • southwood

      jacko,

      The problem is, it's not a "weakkneed Christian" world, it's a weakkneed Western society which has cast off Christianity. It now has no backbone. The basic Christian beliefs are what gives a society such backbone. Evidence ? Look at the Christians who HAVE to believe in it or be killed, Christians under the rule of Islam. These Christians stand up for what they believe in. Pastors have accepted beheading rather than renounce Christianity. A pastor is currently under sentence of death in Iran because he refuses to accept Islam. If we had such leaders in the West, in church and in state ; if we had such Christians proliferating in our societies, we would be standing up to Islam, exposing it, weakening it. Instead we have pragmatism and political correctness. Islam will walk all over the West while these are its ruling ideologies.

  • http://jc.does-it.net Geneww

    Excellent article …
    The main fact remains that 'God Authored The Bible' as proven at http://jc.does-it.net ! All other 'Holy Books' that claim errors in the Bible or disagree with the Bible had an authored inspired by a god other than the God who created this universe, heaven and provides salvation for eternity in heaven for those who acknowlege they are sinners, repent of their sin [yet remain a sinner by nature], acknowledge that Jesus Christ paid for all sins as a gift, and ask for that gift of forgiveness.

  • Michael S.

    I wholeheartedly agree with Chezwick and most of the other posts above me. Born Jewish, I see the almost carbon copy imitations of the two religions that came after Judaism, i.e Christianity and Islam.
    There are many very good societal reasons to follow many of the "laws" that are laid down in these religious texts but one must always remember that in the end everything that "Religions" profess is there to grow, the 'Tribe' and protect it from other 'tribes' that are trying to do the same thing.
    'Power' and 'Protection' of the tribe are the key words in discussing meaning of religion

    • intrcptr2

      That's a very nice, secular take on it all, except for one thing; it was Jews who created Christianity in the first place.

  • Schlomotion

    Did Muhammad exist? D'oh. Solved that for ya:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

    • stern

      Ah yes, wikipedia. First (and last) resort of the intellectually challenged and lazy.

      • Schlomotion

        I suppose it's lazy to show the man a picture of the round Earth, too, but in matters of delusional thinking, time is of the essence.

        • stern

          Just think how much time you would save if you ignored this site, rather than using it as an outlet for your Jew hatred.

          • Schlomotion

            I am extravagantly rich in time and intellect. I like to spend freely.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Doing nothing much of consequence…..

            Other than using liberal talking points (which don't make sense by the way).

          • Schlomotion

            It must be a lot of consequence because you latch onto every comment in order to try to counter it.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Not with a straight face.

            Isn't it time you blame the Jews for something again?

          • Schlomotion

            How about the Anti Islamic Terrorist Army protecting us from baseball shirts? http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/breaking/bs-md-r

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            It's that 'rule of law' thing. You won't understand it.

          • Schlomotion

            Right. The "rule of law" dictates that the entire free republic be reconstituted around counter-jihad and that these very expensive totalitarian police forces should be used to arrest people who sell jerseys at flea markets.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            So many big words.

            The rule of law is that the judge is to uphold the constitution. That says he has a right to say what he wants to. And you can't show anything else.

            Why are you so determinedly dense? No jews to blame?

          • Stephen_Brady

            Interesting … woops! I started to say "give and take" … but Schlomotion, who freely "gives" of his "vast intellect" (/sarc off), merely allows you to take him to the woodshed for an intellectual spanking. Poor fellow can't help it. He doesn't realize it's happening …

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            I really don't think they allow themselves that much honesty.

          • guest

            you are a pauper in intellect and rich in cowardice – just like all the Jew hating trolls on this site who don't have the balls to attack islam – just keep scapegoating those Jews – at least you won't get beheaded.

          • Schlomotion

            People only say things like you do when they know they will never meet that person. It's a shame people don't act the same way online as they do in real life. There are a lot of people here who are still in the "I am a ten foot elf-lord" phase of internet use.

    • Awhat?

      The problem with that is that Wiki is relying on the very artifacts that Specer calls into question. If you make an appeal to authority (Wiki) and that authority is using for its support what has been called into question, then it isn't an authority.

      Now I'm skeptical of Mr. Spencer's claims, but it would seem that they have to be resolved

    • intrcptr2

      Hahahaha…

      Don't quit your day job, buddy. :/

  • Rick

    All religion is for babies. End of conversation.

    • Tanstaafl

      Some of those babies have weapons of mass destruction.

    • Stephen_Brady

      It is for you.

    • RoguePatriot6

      All atheism is for fools. I wasn't the first to come up with this.

      • Boston

        Atheists only believe in what they can understand which is why they believe in nothing.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          Touche!

    • intrcptr2

      OK, daddy.

      Can I put the star on top of the Dawkins tree this year?

      Looks like somebody forgot his pacifier…

    • ObamaYoMoma

      What does Islam, a supremacist theo-political totalitarian ideology masquerading as being a religion to dupe the gullible societies it intends to subjugate into a very draconian form of Islamic totalitarianism via the imposition of Sharia, have to do with religion? It's one thing to trash all religions collectively, but nonetheless I hate to be the one to have to inform you of this, but Islam isn't a religion you moonbat. Indeed, your response is so typical of most leftwing loons.

  • montlasky

    How would you ever get the Muslim masses to believe that Mohammed is a myth?
    Robert Spencer and other authors trying to prove the point of Islam's fictitious beliefs are a candle in the wind. However, if their writings wake up the Western civilisations to take notice and investigate further to show the non existence of Mohammed, this would result in a massive religious war which has already started as far as the Muslims are concerned. We in the non Muslim world must take steps NOW to fight Islam irresepctive of proof or no. If we wait much longer the Muslims will overrun the infidels and then research will be a waste of time as we will all be wearing turbans and burchas!

  • Atlas_Collins

    Let me sum up all the comments to save the reader some time:

    "My tribal storm god is better than your tribal storm god!"

    Odin be with you …

    • Tanstaafl

      All praise to Cerunnos!

    • intrcptr2

      Well, actually, yes.

      Might be why Israel is still here…
      And the Vikings aren't.

    • stevefraser

      Time to read the work of Ken Wilber. Start with "A Brief History of Everything".

  • Ron

    And on top of all this, Mohammed has spent millions of dollars fighting the disclosure of his birth certificate in court.

    • Tanstaafl

      Not to mention the fact that he sealed his records at Ka-Boom University!

  • StephenD

    The truth is, it doesn't matter if he actually existed or not. The cultic ideology that is meant to rule every aspect of human life does exist. Call it whatever you want but totalitarianism by any other name is still Tyranny. Islam is merely the venue in which evil would subjugate humanity and strip it of its God given freedom; freedom of conscience, of will…still matters. Killing that would be to cripple the relationship available between Man and God. Who else but Satan would want such a thing?

  • Tim Underwood

    The history of religious writing should be taught in grade school so by the time students enter high school they can synthesize this knowledge into mature reasoning. How on earth are young people ever to come to grips with political influences like Catholicism if they don't have an understanding of which Roman courts financed the writings of the Gospels? Naturally the same holds true for the Qur'an.

    • intrcptr2

      What?????

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

        Another really intelligent atheist?

        • fightwarnotwars

          No, he's actually right. The new testament as a book, was assembled by the Roman Catholic Church, they decided what was and wasn't. Anyone who thinks the bible is the "word of god" must believe that the Pope and catholic scholars of the times were "gods".

          • fightwarnotwars

            "Following the Epistle of Athanasius in 367 C.E., the Church finally reached agreement upon which writings were truly authentic and representative of apostolic tradition, thus forming what we know today as the canonical New Testament. Although factions of the Church continued to debate the merits of various books for centuries, and many even used other writings in their liturgy, most uncanonical writings were ordered to be destroyed."

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            The dead sea scrolls were buried long before the Catholic church, yet all the texts match. Go figure.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Actually, everything in the New Testament was around before the Catholics decided to make it official. Anyone that thinks the Bible just happened to come together over that length of time must not worry about the odds much, why not go see how those odds pay off at Vegas?

          • mlcblog

            God gives better odds than Vegas.

    • puc

      Dear Tim
      I believe intelligence is measured by the ability to see fine distinctions. There is a rather large distinction between what Catholics (and other Christians) mean when they speak of the bible being the word of God and what Muslims mean when they assert that the Quran is the word of God. I have no reason to believe you lack the intelligence to see such differences. I must infer therefore that you possess the fashionable disdain of religion in general. I am dismayed by such an unworthy attitude given the seriousness of the topic being discussed.
      puc canada

      • mlcblog

        Well said, puc. Applause!!

  • aaron kaplan

    Of course he existed; how else could pedophilia be legitimized.

    • Ahmed

      We often see this sort of thing from neo-Nazi propagandists, but they
      usually fail to mention that when the Koran was written
      girls even younger than nine were fair game for Christians. It was not
      until centuries later that the Christians in western countries put a
      lower age limit on sexual intercourse.

      A statutory age of consent to sexual intercourse for the purposes of the
      criminal law in the United Kingdom can be found as early as 1275. It was
      originally 12, was raised to 13 in 1875 and to 16 in 1885.

  • steve

    Very interesting, but then what did motivate the Ishmaelite tribes to conquer most of the Roman and Persian empires in 100 years?

    • intrcptr2

      Same thing that always motivates such; greed.

      Or were you seeking an explanation for their success? Like internal discord and economic/military weakness (Kinda like what our leaders are giving us right now).

    • Orlando

      I agree – they minded their own business in Arabia for centuries and then suddenly went out in waves of conquest…. I am not sure why Robert Spencer is so keen to suggest Mohammed didn't even exist. All you need to do to discredit Islam is point out what he was like from the Islamic texts themselves.

  • AntiSharia

    I certainly look forward to reading this book. But I wouldn't expect any changes in the thinking towards Islam. Reasoning with Muslims or their leftist allies is like explaining Heisenberg's uncertainty principle to a tree. We must also remember when considering the existence of Muhammad that absence of evidence does not always mean evidence of absence. It's possible that he didn't exist, it's also possible that he did and that he was exactly as the Muslim world teaches, it's possible that he existed but he's more myth as reality. We'll never really know.

    • Pavelina

      What matters is that Muslims believe he existed. That's what is causing the problem.

  • DrBukk

    I think the way to beat this religion is to try to educate liberals and change the narrative of history.

    From the words of Henry M. Stanley, of Livingston fame, "In Darkest Africa", 1890, "We see in this extraordinary increase in number of raiders in the Upper Congo basin the fruits of the Arab policy of killing off the adult aborigines and preserving the children. The girls are distributed among the… harems, the boys are trained to carry arms… For every tusk (of ivory) a whole village has been destroyed". The best fighters were rewarded with wives and booty.

    This might explain why Arabs have never been accused of imperialism. Hardly anyone survived to complain of victimhood! Islamic polygamy unavoidably causes a drive to conquer lands to find wives for the male victims who were not chosen to marry within their tribes; men also known as "cannon fodder".

    • winoceros

      And the African post-pubescent males they captured were castrated, to boot. Most died.

      Lovely Islamic slavers. A thousand years of this stuff.

  • tom

    The question is not "Did Mohammed exist?" The question is why has his existence not been discussed with the same level of rigor by historians, linguists, archeologists and theologians with the same level of rigorous skepticism that the Judeo-Christian belief system has been subjected to and still is since the Enlightenment. No-one seems to be able to answer this question with any coherence, but questioning of judeo-christian tenets seems to be the beginning of all rational thought, and the rock upon which academe is built; i submit that if Islam were invited to the club, watch the rock get dynamited.

    • intrcptr2

      That sort of scholarship is, today, the bastard offspring of Christianity. Muslims had early learned it, but the Gates of Inquiry were slammed shut sometime near the turn of the 10th Century.

      Islam thus has no native capacity for such self-examination or theological investigations. Curiously, whereas Christians are often content to allow the scholars to destroy themselves with such games, Muslims take it as a personal affront which must be instantly avenged; a heretic, or false wolf, can thus prosper in a "christian" land, but in a Muslim society, he will die.

      I would be careful though, questioning the BIble is not the beginning of rational thought. Jewish history, and thinking, is centuries longer than Greek, and by the time Paul was strolling around the Aegean, the Greeks and Romans both ahd realized that their polytheisitc/humanist philosophy did not answer the questions they had been framing for 400 years.
      If evil exists, and I participate in it (Which every last human being does), then rationaltiy demands that I admit it and strive for reconciliation. This of course presumes the existence of evil. And the Greeks were quite clear that such concepts do not originate within man (Evolutionary/atheistic arguments for morality being some sort of adaptive trait are laughable, really; they also fail to explain why so many people ignore such "instinctual" urges); good and evil are not reducible to biological imperatives, nor are they derivable from logic or rational thought. The ancients knew this. That is one major reason the Gospel spread as it did for 300 years before the empire (Constantine) co-opted christianity for his own ends.

  • Pramer

    An interesting venture looks like. It shall certainly further expose the evil doctrine that has been 'finely' indoctrined either by the 'existed' evil Mohammed or by a disguised third party men/man. It is very sad to see that the world has allowed this EVIl to grow too long.

    Remember, an evil ideology can be defeated only by TRUTH, and TRUTH is the enemy of Islam. The Islam is frightened of TRUTH. Certainly these facts unraveled in the book by Robert Spencer earns the anger and hatred of the Muslim world. But the EVIl has to be exposed. Thank you for the commendable work. More awareness on this violent religion should be spread, besides extensive research to expose the true facts to the Muslim brothren.

  • fightwarnotwars

    Of course he didn't exist, just like Moses, Jesus and Buddha didn't exist. But i's possible that Muhammad is probably easier to "believe" because the Qur'an does not overtly describe Muhammad performing miracles, he was just a "guy" who claimed to speak to angels while in a cave (what in this day we'd call schizophrenia) and besides, someone has to have invented Islam.

    All religious "characters" were created many decades after the so-called events took place to justify certain narratives. It's just a matter of looking at these "Savior" types, whose origin and life stories are all very similar, which have been re-created over and over again to fit different religious movements.

    1.Attis (204 B.C.)–Born of the virgin Nana on Dec. 25th. Both the father AND the son. Died and was reborn. His followers were the first to be "washed in the blood", through the slaying of a sacred bull, where they stood under a grating to allow the blood to shower down on them.

    2. Osiris (1,800 B.C.)–Crucified and resurrected. The first to pass judgement on his followers for their good and bad deeds.

    3. Dionysus (1,200 B.C.)–Born of a mortal woman and sired by the god Zeus. He was killed by being rent apart and was resurrected from his buried heart. First to promise his followers eternal life through baptism and salvation, his resurrection celebrated by a communal meal. Called "King of Kings", "Savior", "Redeemer" and "Alpha and Omega", among others.

    4. Mithras (300 B.C.)–Born of a virgin on Dec. 25th, traveled with 12 disciples teaching and illuminating, was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected. Called "Savior", "Son of god", "Redeemer" and "Lamb of God". His followers kept the Sabbath holy, eating sacramental meals in rememberance of him (Bread and wine which were symbolic of his body and blood). He baptised with blood.

    5. Krishna (1200 B.C.)–Born of a virgin and a god. Whose mortal father was a carpenter. Of royal descent. Had the divine title of "Savior". Was without sin. Crucified between two thieves.

    6. Quexalcote (300 B.C.)–Virgin birth–duh! The first to be tempted in the desert for 40 days. A painting in the Codex Borgianus depicts him nailed to a cross, between two thieves. He resurrects and ascends to heaven.

    • RoguePatriot6

      Attis, Osiris, Dionysus, Mithras, Krishna and Quexalcote died and stayed that way.

      • fightwarnotwars

        the only reasong Christianity prevailed and the story of Jesus outlasted the others is because it had the power of the Roman Empire under Constantine. Christianity, like Islam, was spread by the sword.

        • RoguePatriot6

          and now?

          The Crusades were a long time ago.

          • fightwarnotwars

            and now what? It's less and less important in western culture, and jesus is completely irrelevant if you are born in India, China and almost anywhere in Asia (except South Korea, lot of Christians there). All religions are bound to fade/disappear in the end.

          • RoguePatriot6

            "It's less and less important in western culture, and jesus is completely irrelevant if you are born in India, China and almost anywhere in Asia (except South Korea, lot of Christians there)."

            I guess it never occured to anyone that this might be the reason why we have beceome less and less of a great nation or civilization. It's funny that folks like you blame Christianity for in-civility yet take a look around, is Christianity the cause of it?

          • fightwarnotwars

            No, no one's said that Christianity is the 'cause of it, but if Christianity always had its way we wouldn't have international travel (catholics believed the Earth was flat, and though Columbus to be a heretic), the combustion engine, space exploration, medical science, etc. Humanity has progressed intellectually as it moves away from religious belief, and most of the time it's religion that has to do some catching up and adapt to the changes.

            If you flip the argument though:

            I really don't believe the religion of choice necessarily always has any influence in the development of nation-states/societies. Sure, in a place like Afghanistan where the Taliban made it regress to the Middle Ages, you can see how much damage a fundamentalis/literalis form of religion can do.

            The West (North America and Europe), in case you need to be reminded, in large part built its riches and civilizations through invasion, enslavement and expropriation of resources from other nations.

            Was Spain one of the wealthiest empires in Europe during the 15th and 16th centuries because it was a Catholic nation or was it because it had the foresight of financing exploration and therefore discovering America and new routes to Asia for trade? And all this despite the Catholics belief that the world was flat?! Did it not use the forced labor of the original people's of the American continent to dig for gold, copper, and other precious metals. Who built those cities? = Slaves.

            The same could be said for the "greatness" of most of the history of Europe. And if we come to the 19th and 20th Century, that legacy continued with the imposing of economic and military policy on smaller post-colonial nations (in the Americas, in Africa, Asia, etc.).

            Was that Christianity? Last time I checked, there's nothing in the New Testament about conquering nations, converting them and then using them as slave/or cheap labor.

            So no I don't blame Christianity for the ills of the world, we can do that all by ourselves. But adopting a religion doesn't necessarily help either.

          • RoguePatriot6

            "Last time I checked, there's nothing in the New Testament about conquering nations, converting them and then using them as slave/or cheap labor. "

            That was my whole point from the beginning, there's nothing in the New Testament about conquering nations. There is nothing doctrinally correct about any of the attrocities committed by Christians over the centuries. However if you study Islam and Muhammad's teachings and commands to his followers, you will find there's little, if any, that's doctrinally incorrect about what they're doing.
            When I was talking about being less of a great nation or society I was talking about our moral decline and how it's dragging us down the sewer. For ex. We as a society have justified killing a human being in the womb and are now making the argument that's it "okay" to do it to infants shortly after they're born. Remove God and invite other gods and moral decline along with it.

          • fightwarnotwars

            Well, I would say "no gods", not invite other gods. A healthy society should not live according to supersitions of any kind. As for abortion, I agree that its awful, but nor from a religious perspective, I think its awful because it can be prevented yet we have people who would ban all forms of contraception based on their religious beliefs.

            "it "okay" to do it to infants shortly after they're born" never heard of that….

          • RoguePatriot6

            "I think its awful because it can be prevented yet we have people who would ban all forms of contraception based on their religious beliefs."

            We we also have who would do abortion and far worse, because in their minds there's no God therefore there's no evil.

            "A healthy society should not live according to supersitions of any kind."

            You mean what you would call superstition. Oh, and by the way, look around, our abandonment of the "superstition" has done us a whole lot of good, hasn't it?

          • fightwarnotwars

            Well, if you compare our life expectancy and quality of life to that of Europe during the Middle Ages, the U.S. during the depression, the 1800's, yes, we're a lot better off.

            We live longer, better and our societies are far less violent than they were. Sure, we're very far from perfect, a lot needs to improve. But as a man of 33 my life is far easier now that it would have been in 1940, 1918, 1865, 1776, 1492, etc…

          • RoguePatriot6

            "We live longer, better and our societies are far less violent than they were."

            You cannot be serious. We are less violent? Have you observed our serious problem with violent crime lately? Not only is it prevalent on the streets but it's an epidemic in our schools. Kids have no respect for authority nowadays partly because their parents are still kids and dad is non-existent in alot of cases which brings to us another indicator of moral decline.

          • fightwarnotwars

            Actually violent crime statistics are at a historical low in the U.S.

            "The Bureau of Justice Statistics conducts the annual National Crime Victimization Survey which captures crimes not reported to the police.

            In 2009 America's crime rate was roughly the same as in 1968, with the homicide rate being at its lowest level since 1964. Overall, the national crime rate was 3466 crimes per 100,000 residents, down from 3680 crimes per 100,000 residents forty years earlier in 1969 (-9.4%)."

            As for worldwide:

            "So far they haven't even been close. In fact, the last decade has seen fewer war deaths than any decade in the past 100 years, based on data compiled by researchers Bethany Lacina and Nils Petter Gleditsch of the Peace Research Institute Oslo. Worldwide, deaths caused directly by war-related violence in the new century have averaged about 55,000 per year, just over half of what they were in the 1990s (100,000 a year), a third of what they were during the Cold War (180,000 a year from 1950 to 1989), and a hundredth of what they were in World War II. If you factor in the growing global population, which has nearly quadrupled in the last century, the decrease is even sharper. Far from being an age of killer anarchy, the 20 years since the Cold War ended have been an era of rapid progress toward peace.

            Armed conflict has declined in large part because armed conflict has fundamentally changed. Wars between big national armies all but disappeared along with the Cold War, taking with them the most horrific kinds of mass destruction. Today's asymmetrical guerrilla wars may be intractable and nasty, but they will never produce anything like the siege of Leningrad. The last conflict between two great powers, the Korean War, effectively ended nearly 60 years ago. The last sustained territorial war between two regular armies, Ethiopia and Eritrea, ended a decade ago. Even civil wars, though a persistent evil, are less common than in the past; there were about a quarter fewer in 2007 than in 1990.

            If the world feels like a more violent place than it actually is, that's because there's more information about wars — not more wars themselves. Once-remote battles and war crimes now regularly make it onto our TV and computer screens, and in more or less real time. Cell-phone cameras have turned citizens into reporters in many war zones. Societal norms about what to make of this information have also changed. As Harvard University psychologist Steven Pinker has noted, "The decline of violent behavior has been paralleled by a decline in attitudes that tolerate or glorify violence," so that we see today's atrocities — though mild by historical standards — as "signs of how low our behavior can sink, not of how high our standards have risen." "

          • winoceros

            Sorry, who in power has proposed banning contraception? Is this another made up thing?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            That's a huge topic with verses and theologies both ways.

            Catholics feel life is a gift, from conception to natural death. And they feel God is the one to decide.

        • Pavelina

          Christianity was not spread by the sword. The followers of Jesus walked out into the world unarmed to spread the Good News. They were all martyred except John.
          The purpose of the Crusades was not to spread Christianity by violence. European Christians went to the Holy Land at the request of the Christians there who were being persecuted by their Muslim masters.
          Muslims are instructed to conquer the world for Allah by violent Jihad. No Christian is told to proselytize by violence. It is against the teachings of Jesus.

    • intrcptr2

      wrong

      • fightwarnotwars

        wrong about what exactly?

    • Jim Deferio

      You are either very very ignorant and easily deluded or you are simply a blatant liar? Check your sources! here is the truth and it is well documented: http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similariti

      • fightwarnotwars

        So there are minor differences, still, the myths are still all very much alike. It's obvious that whoever was writing about the life of Christ was influenced by these previous myths. Especially given the huge influence that Greeks had over the Mediterranean, including Jewish scholars. C'mon…

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          Or there is a plan to Salvation and satan threw up a lot of smoke screens.

          • fightwarnotwars

            Ok sure…. if you believe in an actual Satan, then there's no point in arguing with you.

            By making that argument than you must believe that the Buddha and Dionysus also actually physically existed, although that would counter any literalist view of the bible, since those gods/religions predate Christianity by thousands of years.

            If they were false prophets "created" by Satan then does Satan have the power to create life in your religious view?

            The point that scholars have made for decades is that each religion carries with it similar archetypes, creation myths and parables. Which show that the worlds population have for centuries attempted to justify their existence by coming up with these magnificent stories that all sound really similar. It also shows that people of different tribes/cultures traveled and interacted a lot more than we thought.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Unless you believe in evil, there is no point in your arguing about religion that delivers us from it.

          • fightwarnotwars

            Evil is the violation of a moral code, we had both long before Christianity. Why would a "perfect god" not have a control of an "evil being" such as Satan, why would it even allow the existence of "competition". Big hole in the argument about an all powerful god right there.

            Praise Mithra

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Not a hole in the ground argument.

            Every culture has had some concept of evil and the power behind it. They may have had different symbols or myths to explain it, but even the simple folks of the past were able to wrap their minds around it.

            Christianity, and Judaism to some degree are the only religions that offer a God that had a plan to offer us a way for Him to pull us above it all.

          • fightwarnotwars

            Really? How about Buddhism? Have you ever studied it? Have you ever visited a city/town/country influenced by Buddhism?

            It's a peaceful and fairly benevolent belief system which hasn't 'caused the same amount of damage that Christianity has. No crusades in the name of Buddha.

            Maybe your Satan's true smokescreen was Christianity? After all, the many centuries of European antisemitism that led to the Holocaust and Russian pogroms had their origin in the Christian doctrine and belief that Jews had killed Christ. Or how about the Inquisition, or the conquest of the American continent and Africa? Millions dead and enslaved. If I had to believe in a Satan, that would sound a lot like his work.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Why do you trolls always make us do the digging for you?
            Why?
            http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachin

            "Evil as external force. In this view, evil lurks about and infects or seduces the unwary into doing bad things. Sometimes evil is personified as Satan or some other character from religious literature."

            Anything else I need to find for you?

          • fightwarnotwars

            no one asked you to look for anything…

            Calling anyone who questions your belies a "troll" is quite frankly very childish, so I will disregard it. Since you were incapable of proving to me how Christianity is superior, unique, or significantly different from all the other religions, I'm done.

            The fact that you are most likely a christian, and the fact that most of us in the West grew up in judeo-christian is really simply a factory of history. We inherited it simply because Romans spread it by the sword, as did the European empires later. That's no different than any other religion out there. Christianity got the upper-hand simply because a warmongering Roman decided to adopt it and then force it on others.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You said "Really? How about Buddhism."

            Anything else? Just not up to the big boy pool, are you?
            Until Constantine Christianity was spread in spite of the sword. You know all those fish bumper stickers? You need to find out it's history. When two suspected Christians would meet, one would draw the top line, the other would complete the bottom line and they would know they were both believers.

            It is different than other religions. Christians depend on the gift of Christ, other religions depend on the works of the adherent.

        • winoceros

          I'm taking it you didn't read the material in the link. Because you just doubled down on cut-and-paste made-up stuff. Want to take a second look at the references?

          Interested in references?

      • fightwarnotwars

        fun fact Jim:

        Some Mormon scholars believe that Quetzalcoatl, who has been described as a white, bearded god who came from the sky and promised to return, was actually Jesus Christ. According to the Book of Mormon, Jesus visited the American natives after his resurrection.

        Latter-day Saint President John Taylor wrote: "The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being. But the history of the former has been handed down to us through an impure Lamanitish source."

        A common argument agains the similarity between the Quetzacoatl myth and the similarities of the Jesus story is that America had not been "discovered", sure maybe not by Europeans. But it's a well known fact that the original native peoples of the American continent migrated from Asia, thousands of years before and they brought with them their cultures/religions/art/customs/ etc..

    • ObamaYoMoma

      Of course he didn't exist, just like Moses, Jesus and Buddha didn't exist.

      What does any of the aforementioned have to do with Islam and why are you attacking faith-based religions in response to Islam. Indeed, Islam isn't even a faith-based religion you gullible dupe. Instead, Islam is a supremacist theo-political totalitarian ideology that masquerades as being a religion in order to dupe the gullible societies it intends to subjugate into a very draconian form of Islamic totalitarianism via the eventual imposition of Sharia, which is exactly what will become of Europe in the next 50 years, if not America too a few decades later. It's amazing how PC multiculturalism combined with moral relativism can destroy so many minds!

    • momukchu

      5. Krishna (1200 B.C.)–Born of a virgin and a god. Whose mortal father was a carpenter. Of royal descent. Had the divine title of "Savior". Was without sin. Crucified between two thieves.

      At least this claim is false…

  • Dubeliveau

    I agree with fightwars and Atlas all above. Is there any difference between Hebrew mythology, Christian, mythology, Greek Mythology, etc? All myths and great stories…but myths nonetheless. The world be be a much better place without all this nonsense.

    • RoguePatriot6

      Theres alot of reasons why the world would be a better place.As far as this "nonsense" is concerned nations that have embraced atheism all througout history have wound up with leaders and regimes that were just as ruthless as Islamists, if not more.

    • intrcptr2

      Yeah, there is.

      God

      And no, it wouldn't be; USSR lasted only 70+ years, for those who survived…

      • fightwarnotwars

        well, one could argue that for the USSR was also ruled by a religious-like faith in the Party, same goes for Nazi Germany. Faith in a leader and a false mythology based on the supremacy of a race, or in the USSR's case the supremacy of an ideology.

  • DogWithoutSlippers

    Muslims will never relinquish the idea that Mohammed was a living person. To do so would make all of the Quran a lie. Obviously, Robert Spencer has courage to write his book in an effort to document and reveal the truth behind this (if he even existed) most evil of men as recorded by muslims themselves! Hopefully, the floodgates of truth Robert Spencer has opened will eventually allow all of islam's adherrents to escape.

  • MikeGiles

    So. Why do atheists care? The fact that others believe does them no harm; but they angrily insist that no one else should hold beliefs that differ from theirs. Last I checked – with one rather major exception – no one is forcing them to believe. Why the hostility? Why the attacks on Judeo-Christianity? Anyone have an explanation?

  • RCCA

    Reading through all these comments simply put proves the point that Mr. Spencer has been stating all along, that there have been endless discussions questioning the authenticity of Christianity. It is high time that Islam be questioned just as rigorously. I welcome his new book because it will serve as a catalyst to bring Islam into line with the other great religions, and puncture the delusions of many Muslims about the Koran.

  • John Oakes

    To say that " Christian territory like northern Cyprus (was) ethnically cleansed and occupied by Muslims" as Robert Spencer apparently does shows a woeful ignorance which I hope is not typical of this book . True, there has been such an exchange of population. But it came forcibly after a period which extended from at least 1956 to 1974 during which it was the numerically-superior Greek Orthodox population which attempted to ethnically cleanse the minority Turkish Cypriot community in its open pursuit of Enosis, union with Greece. Of the 385 members of the British Armed Forces who died trying to intervene, not one was shot by a Muslim Turk.

    • aspacia

      John,

      The point is that Cyprus was Greek until the Turks came, expelled and discriminated against them. In the USA, the Christians are the majority, but are often victimized by Muslims. Why do you call this an exchange of populations??? This is no different than Jordan expelling the Jews from Jerusalem.

  • Fightfair

    fightwars

    Spot on dude, you have suproted all that wee said above, religions are just for babies, whether atheism formed a good government or not, does not prove the validity of the existence of a god.

  • Fightfair

    fightwars

    Spot on dude, you have suproted all that wee said above, religions are just for babies, whether atheism formed a good government or not, does not prove the validity of the existence of a Christian or any other gods.

  • Fightfair

    Make that ‘you have supported’ not suproted.

  • Addeen

    Since Al-Quran existed, therefore Muhammad existed. Why? Because Muhammad was the one and only recipient of these arabic words. No man could have written the verses in the Quran in the same manner.

  • ahmadnb

    No surprise here…and we are to believe that Jesus existed, was the "son of God" and came to die for our sins? Medevial Christians did't exactly behave in the manner that was expected of them by Biblical teachings, either…was that all made up, too? Hmmm….

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

      You wouldn't understand, since you're a muslim.

      We don't have to work our way to heaven. It's already arranged. We just accept and grow into a relationship with the person who made it possible.

      All that 'forced submission' isn't compatible, so the reasoning won't make sense to you.

      • ahmadnb

        Then go to heaven and leave the rest of us alone. Perhaps another acid trip…

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          Why don't you go visit some cousins or something and leave us alone?

  • ObamaYoMoma

    This groveling behavior confirms the traditional Islamic chauvinism that sees Muslims as the “best of nations” destined by Allah to rule the world through violent jihad.

    Although over the years I've learned a lot from Spencer and agree with him often, I wish he wouldn't focus almost exclusively only on violent jihad, since covert and deceptive non-violent jihad, especially via mass Muslim immigration to the West for the purpose of mass Muslim infiltration and stealth demographic conquest, is employed by the Islamic world against the West astronomically far more prevalently and constitutes an exponentially far greater threat to the continued peace and security of the West. In fact, unless something very drastic happens, the Islamic world can't ever hope to conquer the West via violent jihad. However, via covert and deceptive non-violent jihad, Europe will be Islamic in the next 50 years and the USA is on the fast track too.

  • avidyananda

    Spencer makes a good case and I'm willing to consider his ideas. But then how do we explain the changing nature of the Koran verses: the early verses were conciliatory towards non-believers, with an obligation to pray towards Jerusalem and so on. Once Mohammed becomes a warrior, and particularly a winning warrior, his verses become increasingly hostile to non-believers. How do we account for this change in the nature of Koranic verses, which correspond with the history (real or fabricated) of Mohammed and his establishing Islam?

  • Musarrat Khan

    I am a Muslim.Ineed Islam. Islam does not need me.Islam is a faith like any other.Ihave ,like Billions of others have accepted our Religion as is.Now if some one comes around and questions as whether our Prophet did really exist and throws a bunch of facts,which i have no way to confirm or deny,what does he want me to do.I am not as learned as he is. Itherefore I ask myself as to why he did not put the same infront of a Forum where he might find people as learned as he is. I now only wonder as to his motive

    • momukchu

      Musarrat Khan You are right on point– You are on a wrong forum…

  • Brian

    Viva la islamic revolucion long live Muhammad!

  • ManIsNoWasteman

    You lot are so dumb.

  • karunai

    "{This evidence, Spencer suggests, raises the provocative possibility that al-Malik “greatly expanded on the nascent Muhammad myth for his own political purposes.”}" – This is exactly what is said about St Paul “greatly expanded on the cruciFICTION myth for his own purposes"

  • Guest

    I believe Mohammed was a myth, invented by powerful story tellers, for religious & political motivations. With the life and death of Mohammed, the only account is the Koran, which appeared as a known writing centuries after Mohammed's alleged death or his so called departure from the earth. When a group of highly influenciable people want to create a change in a society, that goes against the established way of thinking & the standard practice in life, the best way to do so is to invent a mythical character who lived centuries ago that has already performed such a change, & to give that mythical character so called divine instructions; orders to seemingly validate what that character does & says as coming from the highest authority. If a group of people demanded religious change & political change; they would simply get in trouble with the exisiting religious & political authorities. If a member of that group claimed he was acting under divine orders from (a) God; people would demand proof which he would not be able to give. The story of someone who lived and died(or was rose to Heaven) centuries ago before a written account appears on that person allows the person to not be around a to be questioned or demanded to give proof.

  • Guest

    Continuation: The idea of religious change & political change is not necessarily a highly popular thing with the vast majority of people.It could be, but doesn't have to be. Forced prayer 5 times a day, wars against people of different religious(infidels), not allowing art which shows images,squatting on your knees in a building while you listen to a sermon instead of sitting in a pew; these are a few of the changes which Mohammedianized Islam has created.

  • Fani

    Non-Muslim Assessments
    Traditional Western animus

    Few non-Muslims doubt Muhammad's achievement in terms of uniting Arabia, establishing an embryonic empire and leaving behind him a faith tradition that developed into the second largest religion in the world. They have been less inclined to accept the religious claims made about him. For Muslims, Muhammad is the perfect man and there is no question that he was sincere, moral, righteous and God revealed that Islam to him. Indeed, Muslims believe that God guided and directed the birth of Islam and the affairs of the early community. God is intimately involved in His creation, sustaining it daily (Q13:17, 15:16-23, 20:50, 30:40, 43:11, 56:63-74). Non-Muslims have often taken a much more critical view, and many have regarded Muhammad as self-serving, insincere, immoral, the inventor of Islam

  • fani

    Christians have long accused Muhammad of making up his religion based on borrowed material. Early accounts report meetings between Muhammad and a Christian monk, Bahira (see Guillaume, 79-82), while Q16:103 may respond to the charge that he was coached by a young Christian called Jabr (see Guillaume, 180). He has been called a fake prophet, a charlatan and worse. Some have attributed his "revelations" to epilepsy or some form of mental illness. Early writers even portrayed him as an idol worshiped by Muslims. His name was invariably misspelled.

  • fani

    Many Europeans, though critical of his motives, nonetheless credited Muhammad with political and military success. Even in this there have been skepics, notably Aloys Sprenger (1951), who depicted him as a tool in the hands of greater men such as Abu Bakr and Umar. However, William Muir (1894), whose biography of Muhammad is one of the earliest and most detailed biographies by a non-Muslim based on the best sources, while he echoed many of the above criticisms (indeed, as a Christian he suggests a satanic origin for Muhammad's inspiration), concluded that Muhammad, not those around him, “formed Islam” (lxxxvi).

  • fani

    Minou Reeves' Muhammad in Europe: A Thousand Years of Mythmaking (2000) traces the story of how non-Muslims in Europe have depicted, misunderstood, insulted, mythologized and demonized the life and character of Muhammad:

    In the works of an overwhelming majority of European writers Muhammad was portrayed as a man of deep moral faults. Churchmen, historians, Orientalists, biographers, dramatists, poets and politicians alike had sought to attribute to Islam and especially to Muhammad fanatical and disreputable, even demonic characteristics. (x)

  • fani

    Western appreciation for Muhammad

    Reeves' book, however, also uncovers another tradition—that of such writers as Roger Bacon and William Montgomery Watt—who have tried to “understand Muhammad's cause, Muhammad's message, Muhammad's social and political reforms, Muhammad's personality and character in the context of his times and with an open mind, [seeking to] “dispel the myths and the stereotypes and to show how Islam embraces values dear to religions that have regarded it as their sworn enemy” (300).

  • fani

    Muir followed others in seeing Muhammad at Mecca as sincerely searching for the truth but alleged a moral decline at Medina where worldly ambition mingled with his original goal, and robbed him of any virtue he may have had at Mecca. Muir singles out many events in Muhammad's life for moral censure yet even he praises his simple life-style, his “urbanity and kindness of disposition [and] magnanimity towards his enemies” (although he accuses him of murdering some of his critics, such as the poet Ka'b ibn Ashraf (see Lings, 160 for a Muslim explanation) (see Muir 1858, vol. 4, 304-310).

  • fani

    In recent years, Christian writers Kenneth Cragg (1984), William Montgomery Watt (1961) and Clinton Bennett (1998) have attempted to find ways of affirming that he was a prophet of God while remaining loyally Christian. Watt, asking whether Muhammad was a prophet, concluded:

    …not all the ideas he preached [from Watt's Christian perspective] are true and sound, but by God's grace he has been enabled to provide billions of men [and women] with a better religion than they had before they testified that there is no God but God and that Muhammad is the messenger of God (240).

    In today's interfaith climate, more and more non-Muslims have come to resonate with these views; they accept that God stands behind Islam, thus recognizing with Muslims the genuineness of Muhammad's spiritual experiences and leadership. Although they do not accept every aspect of Muslim belief, they reject the view that Muhammad was insincere or that he invented Islam.

  • fani

    For secular historians, the question of Muhammad's sincerity or authorship of Islam is irrelevant. His legacy in terms of a worldwide civilization is sufficient. For those who believe in God as the prime mover behind and within history, the issue of whether Muhammad was really inspired by God cannot be avoided. Either he was not, and despite political success he was a charlatan, or he was inspired and so was used by God to spread faith in him and to teach the importance of obedience to God. Islam is either Muhammad's creation, or God's. If God's, then the binding of people together in a common faith across race and nationality, with a single hope in God's ultimate perfecting of the world, is providential not accidental. Muslims are the first to admit that they have not always lived up to the ideal. The ummah has not remained united yet Muslims aspire towards unity, and all know that equality, justice and fairness are of the essence of Islam

  • Bryan

    Christianity 2.0:

    Everything said in this article can be applied to nearly every religion in history. There is no definitive evidence that Jesus existed, or Moses, or the Buddha. There is no evidence that Christianity was a religion until the Roman Empire co-opted it for political purposes. Moreover, the diminutive tone of this article seems to ignore the fact that the centuries-old Christian:Muslim kill-ratio remains beyond any reasonable comparison. If your going to talk about history, then it might be helpful to consider all of it, unless your simply trying to reinforce your own prejudice, in which case I guess it could be an inconvenience.

    • Austin

      He is not talking about any other religion, the book is about Islam and Mohammad. What you said is like saying to a writer on the history of Napoleon – ‘You should be writing about Alexander The Great as he also had an empire’. His expertise is with Islam.

  • Shane

    Robert Spencer is very knowledgeable about Islam, even more so than most Imams! Should be an interesting read.

  • Andrew Pyron

    Bryan there is a lot of definitive evidence that Jesus existed. There are 10 non-Christian references to Jesus in the first century ( along with hundreds of Christian references). Compare that to nine non-Christian references for the roman emperor at the time. The entire new testament was written no later than 100 A.D. about 70 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. Most scholars believe that the gospels(the parts containing the life of Christ) were written no later than 70 A.D. with the possible exception of John which may have been written between 80-90 A.D. Also the “Christian-Muslim kill ratio” is heavily skewed towards the Muslims. Probably the most violent thing done in the name of Christianity is the crusades, and even that was a defense against militant Islamic Jihadists, who conquered Christian lands in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Spain. The historical “crimes” in the name of Christianity are greatly exaggerated, and anyway they go against some of the core teachings of Christianity. Islam commands its followers to wage war against unbelievers. Now whether or not most Muslims choose to follow those commands is an entirely different story.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Reminds me of another parasitic person.
    The kind of parasitic person who sits at his work desk writing propaganda all day long. That calls for violence at each and every excuse, not justice or fair law enforcement…. but dirty mean painful vigilante attacks. Like rounding up an entire city of Christians and burning them alive in a locked church.

    You can't actually have a debate so you just throw mud on the wall and hope to distract any meaningful comment.

  • truebearing

    The topic is Islam. Did you have any rebuttals of Spencer to offer?

    There are reliable and substantial historical records of Jesus, but apparently not so with Muhammed. You are curiously silent on that issue. Why is that?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    No, you broke it. He had it right the first time.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    Obviously you are a leftwing secular loon who hates all forms of religion. However, if you weren't so clueless, you'd understand that Islam is not a religion at all, but instead a supremacist theo-political totalitarian ideology that masquerades as being a religion to dupe the gullible societies it intends to subjugate into Islamic totalitarianism via the imposition of Sharia. By the way it looks, it's working because it sure duped the hell out of you!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course there is. Wee, you've been through this before with people.

    Josephus was a Roman historian that documented the evidence of his life.
    You simply are so full of hate you can't see anything outside your world view.

  • intrcptr2

    I shall not repeat any of the things that Roger has.

    I will only point out that you are doing your history wrong, if you truly believe that biblical and extra biblical evidence of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth are invalid hearsay (While such things are nice to have, history does not stop in their absence).
    I should hope you are aware that we have no physical evidence of a whole slew of historical figures, like Alexander, Homer, or most of the pharoahs, much less leaders from other parts of the world.

    You are arguing in circles by denigrating "religious" texts qua religious.

  • aspacia

    Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

    Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5}

    Here is the cited link: http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4223639

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You can't keep anything honest can you?

    Jesus was crucified between two thieves, one who accepted him and one who didn't.

    The other examples you used take nothing from that. And the blood of lambs protecting goes back to the passover, at least with the Jews. Of course animal sacrifice goes back before that to the expulsion from paradise.

    Can't you just leave the hate and make sensible comments?

  • ajnn

    these are interesting bits of information about the formation of early christianity. fun stuff.

    exactly how dates were assigned to significant events is fun, but has little impact on the depth and insight of christian theology.

    we still have no idea where the kosher regs came from; just many, many exciting ideas.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    I see so much bigotry. You can't discuss Christianity without putting it down. If you don't see it, that means you're lying and don't' want to admit it.

    Can you show in the Bible where one thief went to heaven and one to hell? I can see one was promised paradise, but none where they went anywhere but to get their legs broken.

    You jump to conclusions constantly. What a hate filled bigot.

  • wsk

    Stole is a harsh term. Incorporated may be a little less inflammatory and probably more accurate.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Yes, it will. Too bad I have to slow down so you don't get too far behind.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Google it, why should I have to do all your homework?
    If you're going to pretend to come here informed and contributing to the debate you need to do your own research.

    I could make claims like you do, and you wouldn't' like it.

    There is no documented evidence you exist. Can you prove that you do? Where is any documented evidence? And since no one closer to your death then 37 years later, we can't show you are really here now.

  • mlcblog

    He said he saw him or had it from someone who had. It was common knowledge in those days, and everything was written down. People were getting going on written history about that time and we have those records.

  • Eyes_Open

    And we have been through that fraud as well, Josephus wasn't born until over a decade after Jesus was suppose to be crucified, so he never met him, only heard stories at best.

  • patriothere

    There are no writings of the this christ character which is a made up character taken from other gods circulating around the middle east at that time. Try again loser. SHow me the quote of where josephus the jew mentions this made up character. Prove it. Loser. Troll.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    I haven been schooled?

    YOu found the worse possible site and even it admits most people draw the conclusions I have.

    How was school?

  • aspacia

    Wee, ad hominem attacks are fallacy.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And yet people had enough for him to document as much as he did.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Yes, someone who even you admit has stuff that has to be explained away to deny the obvious.

    You love a lot of strange things.

  • intrcptr2

    If Josephus is a legitimate source when you are trying to discredit biblical tests, then he is just as valid when what he says supports them.

    Or do you honestly think that history is built exclusively by eyewitnesses?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And at the time of Josephus there would have been records like the census taken in Bethlehem.

    You are hearsay. You are schooled, and still didn't learn a thing.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And you're here long after your grandparents. Yet here you are.

    You are throwing that out as a straw man argument.

  • mlcblog

    So?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Where are you census records showing Jesus wasn't born?

    A greek physician was satisfied and wrote about it.
    Josephus wrote about it.

    You just have nothing and are so full of hatred and bigotry you have to attack constantly.

    Schooling, it's like feeding you books one at a time . You learn nothing.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And John saw and heard first hand when Jesus walked and talked.

    But that first hand account isn't acceptable to you simply because Christians actually believe it.

    The fact that so many of the people involved in the life of Christ are documented means nothing to you, because you are so full of hatred.

    Pilot went on to be governor of Egypt and was one of the important founders of the Coptic Church (he's still revered there). You can't destroy the story of the life of Christ. You simply keep nipping at it's heals since you are so full of hate.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    By those standards I can dispute your grandparents. The only people that have documentation are biased and can't be trusted.

    You offer no outside validation. It's only hearsay you're even here now.
    Every single piece of evidence is biased and not historical outside the religion of wee wee.

  • aspacia

    The apostles and early Christians would also be valid regardless of what you claim.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    We have been over this before as well. Some suggest that these writings of John come from the work of a group of scholars in Asia Minor who followed a “John” or they came from the work of church fathers who aimed to further the interests of the Church. Or they could have simply come from people also named John (a very common name). No one knows. Also note that nowhere in the body of the three epistles of “John” does it mention a John. In any case, the epistles of John say nothing about seeing an earthly Jesus. Not only do we not know who wrote these epistles, they can only serve as hearsay accounys. Not too bright are you? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • Eyes_Open

    Changing the subject, we were talking about Josephus.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    See the documents of your grandparents had much less to back them up.

    If you apply your own tests to your existence you don't exist either.

    Why so much hate? Why?

  • WeeToddEdwards

    So I have documented evidence, pictures and , genealogy records. So no you can't use my own (any any ratioanl truth seekers) standards. You are deflecting away from the truth. Typical from a pig <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    The evidence and the first hand accounts of His life were handled much more carefully than your records.
    So by your own tests you existed less than Jesus.

  • Eyes_Open

    Ha, but there are no records of census taken in the province until after the death of Herod the Great, so the entire story of Jesus' birth is false. He may have been born, but the story surrounding his birth and all the events that are used to claim that he is of holy descent are false, provable with facts and records from the roman empire.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Where is all this evidence you exist?
    You have nothing, you aren't really here. This conversant was over before you started. You don't care about facts.

  • aspacia

    Wee,

    You add nothing to the conversation and are intent on insult rather than refutation. I win; you lose. How very childish.

    Now, quit masterbating with the keyboard and allow the adults to talk.

  • Eyes_Open

    But still no first hand knowledge as you originally claimed. And what did they have, stories that they wanted to believe so they could think themselves to be touched by a divine force. These days that exact thing will get you a room at the white coat inn.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And is there a link? I don't' see one.

    There was a census taken at your birth and it proved the story of your birth is contrived too.

    How can you just make up any story you want? Cant' you at least have a link to a bogus website?

  • bhs3kgt

    I love hearing from you professional atheists. How much time to you put into trying to discredit Christianity? Must eat up lots of free time and yet you still seem to protest with a sense of shrill desperation. Smarter intellectuals than you have worked for centuries to discredit Christianity and yet here We are. Still the most beneficent religion the world has ever seen.

  • Eyes_Open

    And you have never seen a fact. Oh, they have been there, but you are incapable of seeing them.

  • AZZA

    ROGER WHAT THE FVCK IS WRONG WITH YOU!
    WHY ARE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF SO OBSTINATE!
    GO PRAY TO YOUR INVISIBLE FRIEND AND ASK HIM TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION. SEE IF YOU HET AN ANSWER!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course. They're wasted on you and wee both.

    But I can do that for you to ignore all over again. http://www.robotwisdom.com/science/jesus.html

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Yes and you ignore facts to back up your mantra a lot too. http://www.breakpoint.org/commentaries/2312-the-g

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Really? How desperate you are to ignore things.
    http://www.bible-history.com/empires/pilate.html

  • Eyes_Open

    Hmm. let's see.

    First off I will tell you as you are so fond of telling everyone else, Look it up for yourself, I'm not here to do your home work for you.

    Second, that makes no since, but I expect no more from you, and the entire story of Jesus' birth hinges on the census, if iit didn't happen then the entire story falls apart. And it didn't happen.

    Third, you make up all the thing you like and ignore the links that prove you wrong so why should anyone bother to send them. It is easy enough for you to find, as soon as you get off the "All Christian, All the Time" web sites.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You fail your own test.
    Then pretend any relevance.

    The man who saw Jesus and judged Him had something to say and did so. http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-8

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Why would I do your homework?

    You made the claim you show it's not just mud on the wall.

  • aspacia

    It is sense.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Is that the best you can do? http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/12/the

  • Eyes_Open

    How desperate of you to link from only bias web sites, and not even on the subject we were talking about. Josephus remember……. not Pilate.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Really? An undated opinion piece?
    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/faking-a-

  • Eyes_Open
  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You only use biased web sites. Bias seems to be fine with you, as long as it agrees with you. And you conveniently ignore any facts in the one I use.

  • intrcptr2

    The subject was not Josephus, it is the historical accuracy of the Bible…

    Or do you still deny the existence of the Hittites?

  • Eyes_Open

    Then please enlighten me to the facts on that page referring to Josephus.

    And I linked Christian websites in the above post that still refute the story of the birth.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    The first only describes the census. Even for wiki it doesn't prove anything.
    The second is a biased opinion piece, If I offered something like that you'd rip it apart and ignore it. I'll do better and just ignore it since it offers no scholastic expertise.
    The third source, if your argument hinges on it, I'm laughing.

    Was it supposed to make sense? Even a well laid out blog would have had more seriousness.

    Come on, can't you do better than that?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Not really, who would know better the beginnings of Pilate than the ones he governed. By rejecting it out of hand you show your bias and hatred towards all sources not agreeing with your talking points.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course it has. It had back ups for all it's claims.

    Try again.

  • aspacia

    Just because a site is Christian does not make it invalid.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course you're wrong.
    If it was Christian it didn't refute the story.

    Just labeling something doesn't make it so.
    I could label you 'smart' and it wouldn't be true.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Seems to me the man who judged Him had a pretty good vantage.
    Of course you dismiss the Copts history and their story.

    Why do you manage to do that with anyone that disagrees with you?

    Could it be you're simply a hate filled troll?

  • patriothere

    Religious fundamentalists like this reosrt to faith when you call them on their nonsense. Just mention the word dinosaur to these creeps and that should send them over the edge.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    So, you're admitting it's not the outright fake you pretended to a moment ago?

    I can't believe you're making progress. Quick, you better deny everything and go back to your starting point like you always do.

    Remember, we never ever proved that Hitler didn't do evil in spite of Christ's teachings….

    Wee, even taking your last comment seriously. It showed that the story wasn't out of character for what happened during that time period. It validates the details even if you won't admit the possibility it was Jesus laying in that tomb.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Wee, if we use your flexible and changing standards, you don't exist either.

    You can't show evidence that the Bible was wrong in fact, so you simply babble to confuse the issues.

  • intrcptr2

    No, scholars (Already biased against the text) have argued that the traditionally recognized authors did not write the texts; they do not KNOW this as fact.
    After reading far too many already, I am amazed when I find anyone who buys these rotten "higher criticism" arguements; they tend to rely far too much on speculation and very dicey word play.

    O.M.G.
    I started this response before I finsihed reading; did you just base an argument against liturgy on the idea that John signed his Gospel as "St John"?!! Are you serious?!!
    OK. From this point forward you are officially an idiot.

    The church did not establish sainthood. The RCC has conjured up a rather perverse definition of someone they really like. But the concept of being a saint is in the text of the NT to begin with. And no one signed any of the Gospels, as Saint or otherwise. John clearly places himself in the text as an eyewtiness (Which means the burden of disproof is on the sceptic, a job that has never been pulled off successfully).

    Your ending here is not an argument or experiment, by the way. It is a badly constructed game, resting on an utterly ahistorical presumption which bears no relation to human relationships(You might just as well ask where the paragraphs are, much less the chapters and verses). The Gospels did not magically appear in a library or church somewhere awaiting a medieval clerk to discern who wrote them; they were passed along, hand to hand, among believers.
    If you give me a book with no title, I am going to ask you about it. There was no need for the authors to sign them for others to know who wrote them.

    I really do not care how upset you are that your mommy made you go to Mass as a little boy. You need to grow up and realize that you've been snookered, both within and without the Church.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    LIke yours were?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Why, I haven't failed. I expected you to ignore all evidence against your position.

    It's a risk taken when you debate someone ruled by hatred and bigotry. I showed my side and backed it up with reasonable sources for my conclusions.

    You? Not so much.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And I presented it.

    You only fail to admit it.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Can you?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Can you show where you didn't?

    Go back and read the thread. Can you manage that? It's biased and only opinion pieces, but try.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Not yet you haven't. You've only shown that your bigotry blinds you to facts.

  • RoguePatriot6

    then all you accomplished is to fool yourself.

    Romans, in the first couple of chapters, talk about a reprobate or completely depraved mind.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Can you show unbiased documentation it's you typing them? You fail your own changing tests.

  • RoguePatriot6

    "Can you show in the Bible where one thief went to heaven and one to hell? "

    You won't get a straight answer, you'll just get something else taken completely out of context.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    In what way? The biased opinions it throws out?
    The outdated conclusions?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Wee, you still ignore all evidence collected at the time. The problem with that is that unbiased people examined the life of Christ and found not only was it true, but used it to change their world.

    So, you only want to listen to people who saw the truth and ignored it. That would make them like you. Blinded by bigotry and not smart enough to base their world view on facts.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And your grandparents are dead.

    Do you really know they lived? They aren't here to speak. You have the most failed talking points. Why do you think you can sit at a government desk typing propaganda and have any credibility?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    See, you still fail to admit it.

    Are you almost to the quota you have to meet on propaganda filled comments for the day?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    It was biased, why did you take it seriously?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    They were biased in their conclusions.

    They assume that because someone was changed by the evidence they saw they cant' be trusted. Perhaps Luke was the most trustworthy kind of person, perhaps John was a simple man telling what he knew to be true.

    The fact you reject them without examining what they say shows bias.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    So you admit you never say anything of substance.

    What to make more false assumptions?

  • WeeToddEdwards

    They are very much alive. You know nothing about my life Try again <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    I admit they are biased. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    See you are making false assumptions and twisting my words. That is why you ALWAYS fail <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And do they talk to the dancing pink ponies inside your head?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Still pushing for your quota.

    How sad.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course not. And quit blaming me for your using stupid words.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Who cares what your failed book says? You book has corrupted a lot of minds and caused many people to kill others. I would not trust it <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    How can you expect to ignore every person alive at the time and not come up with false conclusions?

    Or is that what you're trying to do?

  • RoguePatriot6

    Yea, I know, because of the bible we have alot of twisted minds out there.

    Really? Has it ever occured to you that people have twisted their own minds like you have, Wee? Naahhh, of course not. It's the bible's fault, in other words it's God's fault. Classic!!!

    It reminds me of spoiled rebellious youth, blaming his parents for the demise caused by his/her own foolishness.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    It is wee wee, the small little tiny man sitting at his work terminal.

    He sounds like he's starting to hit that little flask in his drawer too.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Still trying to please allah. How pathetic <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    I bow only to the one true God, the Creator.

    It's part of being a Christian.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    As I said you know nothing about me. You just proved that <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    I know enough. You love to advocate for vigilante violence. You ignore anything you don't agree with. You have no honor and love to try intimidating people who you can't just bully around. You make up anything that suits you and you will change the subject as a last ditch desperate effort when you've been thoroughly exposed.

  • Eyes_Open

    Is that the best you can do, "I don't believe them because they are what I believe" Come on now, you probably can't do better, but at least try.

  • intrcptr2

    Roger,
    I am familiar with Glenn's ChristianThinkTank. I find his arguments tend to be very well laid out and evidentially supported. He is critiquing an argument like Wee's here, by inserting his own comments interlinearly with those taken from Fox's book (I'm not sure why you feel it poorly done).
    EyesOpen has shot himself in the foot with that one; Glenn is arguing FOR Luke's account of a census, which demanded that Jesus be delivered in Bethlehem. Concerning this, I find this quite interesting, and compelling; http://askelm.com/star/star006.htm

  • WeeToddEdwards

    You're not a christian though, you prove that everyday <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • Eyes_Open

    You still haven't stated you facts, and you are still trying to change the subject. What's the matter, realize your flawed logic and now your trying to hide it?

  • Eyes_Open

    "I could label you 'smart' and it wouldn't be true. " True see how you have know idea what smart is. I will stick to the the three degrees and the several batteries of IQ test to elaborate on my intelligence.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Thansk for proving my point, you know nothing about. If you wear your buttons on your head roger expect me to push them. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • patriothere

    Were you looking in them mirror when you said that? You must be retarded. Either you're retarded or you are a troll.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    I have. You?

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Yes you do. That is your MO. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And I notice you didn't deny a single thing I pointed out.

    So you know I'm right.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    I prove you don't understand what Christ stood for.

  • Eyes_Open

    Well, got you there, I'm not an atheist. And it doesn't take much time.

    Beneficent, you call spending 1600 years slaughtering people that refused to convert beneficent? Go ahead, start ranting about Muslims doing the same thing today. Then, just for fun, look up what the Baptist in Africa are doing to their own kids, in the name of a Christian god.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course I have.You just can't keep up and want to spread the blame around for your 'stupid'.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Use your stupid words?How quaint. Does your women bosses know you're still playing on the computer? Shouldn't you be in their bathroom cleaning?

  • WeeToddEdwards

    No you don't <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    So you claim words like “yes” and “you” are stupid? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You're pagan.

    But you pretend to be a pro at your attacks on Christianity.

  • MikeGiles

    What are they doing and what doctrine of Christianity do they claim to be following? They fact that all Christians are not perfect, is not proof of Christianity is false. BTW, I see no doctrine in Christianity that calls for forced conversion along the lines of Islam for example.

  • intrcptr2

    Oh, dear, bhs3kgt, what will we ever do; he believes in patently false gods.
    Better beware before he puts a hex on us.

    God bless you brother. I do hope your spirit friends don't turn on you too roughly, when they do.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    They are alive and well. I already said that, please try and keep up <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    So blind, so full of hate.

    You aren't in a positon to make that call.

  • Eyes_Open

    Then restate then, if you are capable. Remember, you are trying to prove that Josephus was alive during the life of and wrote about Jesus Christ in the contemporary. Good luck with that.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Still avoiding the facts as I described them?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    How many times would a silly pagan want me to repeat them? Trying to keep me busy so wee can get ahead?

    Yeah, good luck with that.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And still have no common horse sense.

    How sad. You realize you explain why so many reject the current education system?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Still deflecting. Still using straw man arguments.

    Isn't it time you go to lunch at your government office?

    Maybe you can get some mtn dew and fortify yourself for the rest of the day.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Of course I am. That is why I do it <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course you're not. You so misunderstand the teachings of Christ you think Hitler was a follower.

  • Eyes_Open

    And once again you refuse to state what you have never stated in the first place. Facts a little too hard for you to find? Or just too hard for you to swallow?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Tell that to the Jews Hitler Killed?
    We've clearly established that Hitler didn't follow the teachings of Christ. You have not shown a single teaching he remotely followed. You can't show where a single example in that list actually is doing what Christ wanted.

    So, you list the failings of Christianity and blame what on Christ?
    You are the angry mind that he pointed out. Do you want me to quote your comment about that night at 18 when you were arrested for being at a party with drugs and stuff?

  • RoguePatriot6

    Wee,
    Hitler was a madd man that needed a scapegoat for his own misery and he found one, The End. Christianity's teachings drove him to do what he did? No, his hatred did.

    Are the teachings of Islam driving what Islamists are dong right now? Yes it is. They are doing exactly what Muhammad told them to do, just as he did in 623 A.D.

    And as for God killing innocent people, wee, How could he have killed someone if He didn't exist in the first place? remember? You can't have it both ways and I would seriously do some research if you think these people were "innocent".

  • intrcptr2

    What physical evidence can you provide us to show that all those people were innocent (Of what were they innocent, I might also ask)?

    Game, set, …..

  • Eyes_Open

    Because public education turned out so many fools like you? My education wasn't on the public dole like yours was.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Still avoiding reality and using opinion roger <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Just acting like you <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Because he was <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Nope, what teaching of Christ made Hitler slaughter 6 million?

    Your'e still a failure on this.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    We have established that Hitler was a christians with documented evidence. That is all on this subject with you. Now donkey leave a comment. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Like you do? Of course not.

    So much blind hatred.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Why bother? You silly pagan, you'll just ignore it over and over again.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    No, becuase you were taught what to think but haven't showed you can think yourself.

    It's much the same with the staffers in this administration. Education in the classic sense avoids that trap.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Wee wee, you can be amusing. Not in a good way, but still amusing all the same.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    No, you haven't. You have kept saying that in Goebbels style.

    You have shown he was an opportunist that wanted the power the established church represented, You have not shown he follwed any teachings of Christ.

    That's the test, and you can't meet it so you deny the test has validity.
    You fail on this every time.

  • intrcptr2

    Really?

    You have film of Hitler confessing his sins, proclaiming the blood of Christ for redemption? You saw him getting baptized?
    You have receipts of his tithes at church? Even Bill Clinton carried a Bible to the national cathedral once or twice, got any shots of Hitler doing that?

  • Eyes_Open

    I can't ignore what you have never written, good bye moron.

  • Eyes_Open

    So I guess that is why you boast about how uneducated you are, because you avoided the "trap" of education. LOL

    Good bye ignorant Moron

  • wsk

    WeeTodd is more correct…..

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    In what ways?
    One was more specific, islam. Wee was a bit more overly general.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course you have.

    You have often said that all monotheisms were equal and then ignore when I point out that they aren't.

    Why would go feed the troll again on this?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Avoiding your pitfalls isn't anything of the sort.

  • guest

    hey wee wee, do you ever go after islam with the same gusto or are you too much of a coward?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    How many guesses you'll need to figure out who thumbed you down?

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Not me. You have the hatred <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    I win on this everytime, nothing you say will change that <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • RoguePatriot6

    Trying to convince us, or yourself?

  • Eyes_Open

    And if one examines them thoroughly, and still rejects them, you still claim bias. In other words, anyone that doesn't agree with you, you claim is bias. Perhaps YOU are they one that is most bias, as proven by your actions, today and every day.

  • RoguePatriot6

    I never said they weren't "real" Christians. What I was referring to was the actual teachings of Jesus. He never condoned or taught such things.

    Muhammad did.

  • Chris_

    Stop humiliating yourself Weewee. You can find no justification for the crimes perpetrated by the Christians in the teachings of Jesus. What Christians do in Africa is not the fault of Jesus. These practices are animism not Christianity. They are practiced by the Christians in the name of Jesus, but they are not the teachings of Jesus. They are remnants of animism lingering in the psyche of the Africans.

  • RoguePatriot6

    Um…..how many times today, do we read, hear and see the kids and entire families suffer because of the foolishness of our nation's leaders or the stupidity of foolish parents who do foolish things?

    The more things change the more things stay the same.

  • intrcptr2

    Give me a break, man; you've already denied the Bible has any historical validity, you have disqualified it as evidence.

    Have another go.

    PS
    The simple fact that you spend all this time trying to refute it, proves that the Bible has not failed. I will leave the chapter and verse for you to find, since it appears you know your Bible inside and out.

  • RoguePatriot6

    No, he had hatred in his mind and heart and he or others may have used Christianity (twisted it to to say what they and others wanted to hear).

    From what I understand, Hitler was a professed atheist.

    "The intolerance against humans and religious wars committed before WWII comes from such abundant sources of Christian history that to deny an influential connection can only come from immeasurable ignorance."

    I never denied the connection. I will however deny the lie that it was a result of what Christ taught his diciples. Muhammad taught his followers exactly what you see all throughout the history of Islam and to deny that is WILLFUL ignorance.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course you. Readyoucomments.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Because of why? Because you two pretend to ignore the points I make?

    I understand you have to, in order to stick with your talking points. But it does show you both up as trolls.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    No, if they examine them based on real evidence they're entitled to their opinions. But not if they approach it ignoring real evidence and with a pre-determined agenda, then that makes them biased.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    But you're still wrong.
    There is all kinds of things, you just reject them and pretend they don't exist.

    Any evidence by nature is religious, so you toss it out.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    My my, temper temper.
    Wee wee, remember you were the one saying I had the hate, just within the last 5 comments you finished making.

    You really ought to stick to your story more.

    And why do you think Christians ignore it? Just because we don't car bomb our own doesn't mean we look the other way.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Not based on facts. But on the basis that you keep repeating yourself.

    You still didn't show a single teaching of Christ that led Hitler in his life.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And he still didn't follow a teaching of Christ.
    He was simply an opportunist greedy for the influence of organized religion.

  • intrcptr2

    Yes, thank you for proving my point.

    Hmm, one picture, exiting a church. Yeah, that proves, what, that Hitler was a tourist, liked architecture (Oh, yeah, he did fail at that bit), wore a brown coat? Fair enough. Although that one photo is rather underwhelming evidence. Why in the world do you have that sort of thing to hand in the first place? You have some fixation here?
    You do understand (I am pretty sure catechism covers this) that in order to determine who belongs to Christ, and who doesn't (hint, hint), one must first read the Bible to see what God commands, so that we can test the fruit? Hitler killed Jews as state policy. Therefore, it does not matter if was christened or not (Which is not baptism in the first place); he was not Christ's.

    Wow,
    you truly are stupid (No superlatives will help here, just plain stupid). That first link makes it clear that even the RCC recognized that Hitler's practices and actions were/are contrary to church teaching, meaning that Der Fuhrer was not Catholic, much less Christian.

    So what is your excuse? Or rather, what do you intend to chat over with Herr Schicklgruber when you meet him?

  • patriothere

    Hitler was born a christian and came from a christian background but he grew out of it and became a pagan. He was deep into norse mythology and nordic paganism just like Himmler was.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You haven't listened a single time when dozens of folks have explained this very thing?

    You are a troll because you won't listen and simply come here to antagonize people.

  • intrcptr2

    Taught what things, killing?

    No, he did not. You really ought to read the Bible, rather than relying on your memory of the Catechism.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Yes, actually Luke and Matthew were from the original authors themselves. John was written by the author himself only Mark was possibly written for Peter. You simply don't understand Christianity enough to make these kinds of comments.

    Why are you so filled with hate that you keep attacking Christianity like this?
    Are you a muslim cleric out to weaken your enemies or what?

  • intrcptr2

    Wrong again.
    By 140 (Slightly earlier than your hero here) Marcion was already truncating the canon, which means that there was an accepted list of NT documents (My own take on the canon is radically different than most; http://www.askelm.com/restoring/).

    It is a really bad argument to take Irenaeus as establishing canon here. A better reading is that this is an explanation for WHY those churches accepted only the four.

  • dfss

    The bible has more evidence then any other book in the world. If it was given fair judgment people would see that it is the more accurately proven than books like The Origin of Species.

    The Bible is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt as an accurate historical book.
    Try looking it up and reading about it. If you ever read about anything Wee.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Poor wee we.
    Those dates don't matter. You keep trying to make a huge deal out of them, but so what?

    They were written as eye witness accounts. You can attack them all you want, but you can't show they are wrong.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You don't understand, and you're showing either you ignorance, or your bigotry.

    'Saint' meant something different at the time of Jesus than the Orthodox churches have made it today.

    You resort to these word games to sound intellectual wee wee, and you have nothing of substance. Big words don't always equate to big ideas.

  • intrcptr2

    Ah, fairy tales, like the big bang and evoultion, In presume?

    No, Wee, you have not grown up. Sadly, I shall be surprised if you ever do. Being angry at life (God, in fact) must really suck.

    PS
    I've already pointed out why your poor attempt at subtlety (Or is this meant to be insight?) fails.

  • Eyes_Open

    But you seem to be the one to declare what is and isn't "real" evidence to you satisfaction, and we all know that you are bias. To you, stories written down decades or centuries after the event supposedly took place is "real " evidence, but written, government records, recorded at the time of the event aren't "real" evidence because they don't back up your predetermined conclusions. You are incapable of judging this matter, as you are just as bias as the worst of your opposition, maybe more so.

  • RoguePatriot6

    Blame our God? No, you see, that's what irresponsible people do after they get burned from the results of their own foolisness, like you.

    Wise or responsible adults realize that they are at fault, not God.

    Only immature kids blame others for their shortcomings, hince peoples attitudes that "it's God's fault".

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Why does God allow anything?
    Ask him yourself some day. Or you might read the story of Job. You know the one in the Bible before Psalms.

    And why do you keep repeating that saying over and over? The ten Commandments have not passed away, you know the one that text was talking about. You simply won't admit to enough to carry on an intelligent conversation.

    You're just out to antagonize everyone. It's the kind of thing a small little man does.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You need to stop the hate. It not only blinds you, it smells up the room for everyone else.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You have denounced every link I've used here today, who are you to say you have that right but not anyone else?

    A little big headed are we?

    And I just explained my reasoning. I notice you didn't actually show why any of that was wrong. Also Pontius Pilate was a government employee, so why do you ignore what he had to say later in his life?

    You're simply just as much a bigot as wee.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    According to your bible he is the cause of this and he knows you will do it when you are born. What makes this particularly unforgivable is that even Jesus’ own standards demand feeding of the poor. See Matthew 25:35, in which it is stated that the blessed feed the hungry, and that the damned do not. I find it funny that God is held blameless, though, for not feeding them. Does not the old saying “practice what you preach” apply to God? Is his lack of action a hypocrisy or a sin? Could it perhaps be both? Usually, when I bring this up in a discussion, someone says, “No. It is the evil of men that is to blame; they have lots of money and keep it to themselves rather than feeding the poor.” (Funny thing that the Christians who say this are usually conservative.) This argument uses a double standard. Men are held guilty for not feeding the poor, while God is held innocent for doing exactly the same. In fact, it would be far easier for God to feed all the poor with his omnipotence, than for any mortal man to feed even one! Mankind is certainly not blameless here, but it is Jehovah who is the true villain. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You don't debate it.
    You have never actually debate it. You insult it, denounce it then pretend the conversation never happened.

  • RoguePatriot6

    Once again, something taken out of context.

    Matthew 25:35 was teaching that we should help others when we can. It taught compassion. And who said that God doesn't help the poor? Why have you come that conclusion, because in your limited sight and wisdom (assuming you have any) can't see the fact that he is. Did he not also say, you will always have poor among you?

  • patriothere

    Christian doctrine says convert the non beleivers, and they have done that since the beginning of the doctrine was built by the romans. Convert the non beleivers by the sword according to christian doctrine.

  • patriothere

    You have a proven track record of being a liar. Time and time again you have been proven to be a liar and pathological one at that.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Maybe you should look at all the pictures????? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    He was always a chirstian. He never once denounced it and was always supported by the church. Th eonly evidence ever presented is his 'table talks” and we all knwo why they can't be trusted. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    That's the muslim test. Anyone that changes gets that apostate thing and risks being stoned.

    Christianity is different. You iranian centric muslim friendly types are threatening to murder a Christian minister on just those grounds.

    And you wonder why the world considers you barbarians?
    I can see if you expel him and his family from the country, but to murder him? So much for allah pretending to be merciful.

  • intrcptr2

    pretend; indeed.

  • RoguePatriot6

    Read Romans, we are no longer justified by the law.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You are still failing. You take this instruction to the ancient Jews and think it's equal to the Law God wrote on stone on a mountain in a moment so moving they couldnt' even approach the mountain?The ten commandments stand, this? Even the Jews don't keep it.So anything else I can school you on again and again and again? This point has been explained to you over and over. It's just your mulishness that keeps you coming back to more pounding on it.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course he is.
    You are the one that has been shown dozens of times not to be lining up facts.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    If it means he can insult Christians, he' deny the existence of the vatican.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And you have a track record of being a hired mouth piece, remember saying this?

    6 minutes ago @ Breitbart.com – Protests to greet Ahma… · 1 reply · 0 points
    "I'm like jesus, I'm gonna chase you money changers out of the temple and out of town and of course out of this forum. Me and ohsoquiet and a few other REAL AMERICANS who are being PAID to be here like you Israeli PR men. I'm here to chase you filth out."

    You are a 'rented mouth' and frankly you're the third string attack dog on this story. Doesn't that bother you?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Well, those sources may not have edited his work with the Christian Coptic church.

    So, you still fail.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And you are just an iranian centric muslim friendly troll that can't even remember how to use your own profile.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    He talked, other's wrote. You know like any business man who has a secretary do dictation?

    This isn't you day is it?

  • mlcblog

    OK. And I shall enjoy his presence daily. Jesus died so we could have the loving presence of God with us always.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    No, that's not Christian doctrine. You know like your muslim doctrine teaches.
    http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/9/

    9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Maybe you should learn what it means for someone to actually be a Christian? Hmm?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    He was never a Christian. He never followed the teachings of Christ. until you understand what Christianity is really about, you'll never understand it.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    He pretends that the ancient Jewish stuff that the Jews don't follow are our marching orders.

    He takes that one text about heaven and earth and the "Law" of God (the ten commandments) as meaning everything God ever told that old group leaving Egypt.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Have the heaven and earth passed away? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    No, used by Christians because our God is nice.

    See how you have that backwards?
    Now, if it really is violence in religion that bothers you, why on a story about islam have you not mentioned this once?

    9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You are wrong. Thanks for not bothering us with another link.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You are always angry and you haven't shown He is a false God.
    You didn't bother with any link (thankfully) and you always mean jack.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    We're pretty much safe now. Wee is the opener on this three legged stool. He comes in hating religion and closes down after business hours. His side kick eyes helps when he's floundering (again) and patriot circles like the tail flies waiting for a chance. Being a coward he usually waits until everyone is gone for the day. The fact all three were pounding on the same story means they were on the run. And they knew how lame they were all looking.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Yet that's what you're here doing.

    What was a great story on a timely subject was derailed by you and your hatred and bigotry.
    Instead of a new discussion you made it into a rehash of you same old sad song that's been shown wrong over and over.

    Your unwillingness to learn gets boring.

  • RoguePatriot6

    Exactly,

    "I had a bad brush with people who new the scriptures but didn't know the substance therefore it's all evil or detremental to a civil socieity. I say this because I too don't understand nor believe" -Lib/progs mentality

    The question that kind of begs to be answered is "If I do something evil in your name, does that make you evil?" Or "does that make me twisted and pathetic in my attempt to justify the evil that I do?" hmmmmmmm……

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Let's ask wee wee. I'll go light a candle at the local Catholic church in his name so he will be forced into being a Catholic like Hitler was!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And why are you even more obstinate?

    Why do you get so determined to keep me and my faith suppressed?

  • WeeToddEdwards

    I only insult those who insult me. You argument is common when I have people backed into the corner. Are you upset because you could not challenge any of my facts? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    How could he have seen him after he died? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    So how can he be an eye witness? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    MichaelGleghorn? Really? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • aspacia

    First hand accounts, just as Cicero's first hand account of Caesar are considered valid.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    Obviously you know nothing about me. I hate the left. I love how you described islam and I agree. The thing I don't agree with is this is excatlly how Christianity used to be until they took over.

    Christianity or any other faith based religion for that matter has exactly nothing whatsoever to do with Islam, especially since Islam is not a religion. Hence, stop trying to change the subject by morally equating Islam with being a religion as that is moral relativism and PC multiculturalism run amuck. The subject of Spencer's book was the origins of Islam, not the origins of Christianity.

    Moreover, how many Christian states are there in the world relative to Islamic Sharia totalitarian states? The answer is there are zero Christian states in the world because Christianity is a religion. Meanwhile, there are 22 Islamic Sharia totalitarian states in the Middle East alone, because Islam is a supremacist theo-political totalitarian ideology as opposed to being a religion.

    If because of moral relativism and PC multiculturalism you feel you must morally equate Islam with something, then morally equate Islam with Communism, as Islam like Communism seeks world domination, and the end result of Islam, exactly like Communism, is totalitarianism, poverty, despair, oppression, and lots and lots of misery.

  • Ricky Michael

    Would you please get your facts straight. Christians in the Bible slaughtered no one. Atheists like Mao and Stalin, now these are ones to go after. These are some real criminals.

    Mr. Edwards, shame on you. The only people who killed following God's commands were the Hebrews in the Old Testament and that was administering God's judgement against the nations. When you make outrageous statements like that it only looks like you are just trying to stir the pot up, which you are in fact doing. My, my as Roger says.

    One of these days the Fellow in the clouds is going to have a word with you.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    Yes, Islam is classified as the second largest religion in the world.

    By who? You and other loons?

    Your opinion on that means nothing. I equate it with Christianity because Christianity in is infant stage was almost exactly the same

    Well if what you claim is true that you hate and despise the Left, then obviously you must be a Ron Paul anarcho kook. Hence, it doesn't matter, as either way you are a moonbat, as your perception has not only been very seriously impacted by moral relativism and PC multiculturalism, but you are also more than just a little unhinged and warped at the same time.

    In any event, Christianity in its infancy was never remotely similar to Islam, as you obviously have had your ignorance's exploited to the hilt. Nevertheless, Christianity or any other faith-based religions for that matter isn't the subject of this thread. The origins of Islam, on the other hand, is. Hence, if you want to go debate your propagandist fake version of Christianity, then go debate it somewhere else with other anarcho kooks, moonbats, loons, and assorted flakes. This is a serous debate forum.

    They slaughtered anyone who got in their way as commanded by the bible. Once they took over they wrote book saying slaughtering is wrong now that we are dominate. Religions have done some good but have also slaughtered millions of innocent people over which false god they think is in the clouds

    Excuse me, but fortunately for me I was smart enough not to have my ignorance's exploited to the hilt the same way you did.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    I don't humor severely mentally incompetent moonbats. Life is too short.

  • Ricky Michael

    "Christians in the Bible slaughtered no one."

    I could care less what the apostates did. Please give me book, chapter and verse about the christians.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Looks like you're being owned all over again today.

    Wee, can't you admit you're a moron and move along?

  • Ricky Michael

    Sure I do, that's why I asked you.

    Now, since there are only Christians in the New Testament, and, they followed the teachings in the NT, then show me where the "Christian Church" used NT scripture to Kill people. I want book, chapter and verse. Don't go quoting Old Testament scriptures that pertained strictly to the Hebrews. I want to hear where the Christians were told to go do this in the NT.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Exactly. You just admitted that you have nothing, that you're still posting on this not because you have a point, but because you have other issues.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And you can't blame that on his following the teachings of Christ.

    Once again you can't show he would have done all that even if he hadn't been a Christian.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Isn't it eyes that defends and attacks on behalf of the pagans?

    You two ought to get your stories straight.
    You still haven't shown that Christ taught them to do this. That they were following His teachings in doing this.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Why shouldn't the crusades defend fellow believers from muslim invaders?
    You're being disingenuous by ignoring the atrocities the muslims were committing.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    All those that were slain were invaders and were there conquering the byzantine empire.

    Self defense is not a moral failing.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    All this multi part rant.

    You know you're owned, don't you?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You already admitted you were wrong, why are you still posting?
    If it's to prove your a jerk we already know that.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You already admitted that you have nothing. Why the whining?

    Are you in your second childhood and wanting to be as irritating as you were the first time?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    All this rambling.
    You are really disturbed, aren't you?

    You really are a hate filled bigot.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Evidently ignorance isn't your problem. You already admitted that this wasn't due to what Christ taught. So, bad manners and a disregard for facts is your calling.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    No, you don't. You might have heard some things, but you don't understand it a bit.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And your argument is common with people who don't have a clue what self respect might be.

  • aspacia

    I did challenge your claim/facts, and first hand accounts are valid.

    Deist, Historian

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    So, what does that have to do with anything?
    First hand accounts are generally accepted. Since you can't show any of those first hand accounts weren't really wrong, all the rest is just you deflecting and behaving like an immature child.

  • aspacia

    I understand your point, but the fact remains that there is geological evidence for a world-wide flood, and archeological evidence regarding the ancient Israelites, albeit, zero evidence of Moses and the exodus exist in Egypt from any time. Also, most Christian celebrations are on pagan festival days and no one knows when Jesus was born.

    A Deist

  • aspacia

    Nearly forgot, first hand accounts are often considered valid, just as the primary source accounts of Masada and other events are considered valid.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Yes, like an immature child.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And you are too.
    That doesn't make it a good thing.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course you did.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    So then you must be a jerk.

    Mohammed probably existed.
    That doesn't make him right.

  • mlcblog

    not so much

    Their guy is a moon god, made in the mud. You can read it.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    They explained what they saw and heard.
    They never said they could explain it, outside of a living God.

  • mlcblog

    Good question.

    This happened through spiritual power. Invisible but obvious.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Since you were not there, you're not an eye witness and can't claim to know it's not true. So, any other tests you want to put out that you can't pass yourself?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    WeetoddEdwards? Really?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You haven't even passed away.
    And you still haven't shown that the ancient instructions
    apply to modern Christians, the ten commandments do, and they were repeated in the new testament as well.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And his point still stands, so you just wanted to hear your own keyboard didn't you?

  • Ricky Michael

    Now let's talk about the definition of an apostate. My view of one is an apostate is a person who does an action in the name of religion which is directly contrary to the teachings in the NT. We both know that driving cars is not a Bible concept. Stay on topic.

    Your favorite person, Mr. Hitler, is as good as an example of one as you can get. He was a catholic apostate. There have been and are catholic christians, but this fellow falls into the first catagory.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Unlike islam it's between them and God.
    It's really none of your concern.

  • Ricky Michael

    So now let's talk about "Judging." It is not judging when a person compares "Actions" against "Teachings" in the NT. That, is an obvious conclusion whether something is right or wrong.

    An example of "Judging" is when a person decides that someone else doesn't love God. No one can truly know the heart of someone else. But, when that person starts to act in a manner that is contary to scripture, you can tell that person that they are behaving badly. That is commended in the NT for helping that person to correct his behavior.

  • Ricky Michael

    Once saved always saved is based on the Calvinist principle of T.U.L.I.P. P=Perseverance of the saints.

    The NT. warns to take heed lest ye fall. One can turn away from God and be lost, contarty to the teachings of John Calvin.

    And, do you love or hate God? Let's assume he does exist for once. Which is it?

  • Ricky Michael

    Just in case you are wondering.
    T = Total Depravity
    U = Unconditional Election
    L = Limited Atonement
    I = Irresistible Grace
    P = Perseverance (or Preservation) of the Saints

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You still want to connect God's will and Hitler.

    Job is a story in the Bible about God allowing bad things to show Satan was the one who enjoyed it and wanted to impose more of it, that God only allows it in specific cases.

    You don't know the Bible well enough to understand it, and certainly not well enough to make judgement calls.

  • Ricky Michael

    You have that ability, to choose, because God gives all of us the Free will of choice. Your choice is to reject, thus your heart matches your actions. The people you get on to for "Judging You" are properly assessing your actions against the teachings in the NT.

    Don't be telling them they are judging you any more.

    Also, the creator can make the rules whether you like them or not. You, being a creation, must obey your creator. When you don't, then expect to be punished for it.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Speaking of irrelevant, any more side trips to muslim websites so you can try to make me look bad?

    That was fun!

    Now, do you want to ignore the role of evil and pretend that God deserves the blame for the bad things? God is the one who warns us not to do evil and to avoid the bad things in life.

    If anyone doesn't deserve the blame it's Him.

  • Ricky Michael

    Yet freewill exists, no one is making you do anything. It's your choice. You can't deny something that is.

    Your only hope is that God does not exist. Because if he does, then all Hell will break loose upon you one day. I would rather you go fishing with me in heaven someday instead.

    That is a freewill choice you get to make.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    It seems he's not so much against free will, he wants his. But he's agains the consequences of his actions coming back to haunt him later.

    And it's easier to blame that on God.

  • Ricky Michael

    As I said, he made the rules. You are simply choosing which results you want. You apparently perfer Bar-B-Ques. (Poor taste humor)

  • Ricky Michael

    I made my choice. I chose the one Son of God who can save my soul. No others offered me that.

  • Ricky Michael

    True, one thing we agree on.

  • Eyes_Open

    Matthew 21:19And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

    20And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

    As you have said to me, this is allegorical, it was Jesus showing that if you didn't do as he commanded and follow him, he would see your death by his hands. Or at least that is the what the church has used as an excuse for hundreds of years to kill anyone that wouldn't convert.

  • Ricky Michael

    Killing a tree and killing a man are not the same thing.

    There is a closer allegory than that.

    Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18-20 He is not speaking about "trees" here. It's people.

  • Eyes_Open

    Exactly, people. If you don't like what they are doing, kill them and throw the bodies into the fire. Right there in the New Testament. And from this you got the inquisition, and "witch" burnings, and the slaughter of anyone that refused to convert.

    Again Jesus showing his power to punish those who wouldn't follow blindly.

  • WeeToddEdwards

    It is because this site is a more of a chirstian web site. I do the same on islamic ones as well <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • WeeToddEdwards

    Oh soooooo very obvious. Jim Jones claimed to have seen jesus as well. Do you believe him too?

  • WeeToddEdwards

    They are not vaild. Do you believe Jim Jones saw jesus as well? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • Ricky Michael

    This is what happens After we die. It is not authorization for men to do it here on earth. That would be a violation of scripture. You cannot interpet one verse to contradict another.

    No doubt there have been people who do just any old thing they want and try to justify it with scripture, which they pervert the mean of. But, that doesn't make them right in God's eyes. God is not mocked, he will rightly judge those who do that kind of thing.

    Jesus, through him all things were made. Being creator, he can make the rules we live by. You may not like his rules, but you must follow them none the less. He also, died a horrible death to free his children of the coming judgment. Even if you don't like it, it is coming anyway.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And you can't show any of that is from the teachings of Christ.

    So it's just hate speech brought on by your blind bigotry.
    Anything else?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Nazism was not formed off the teachings of Christ.
    The sad thing is you'll make that up now, and pretend because you used it in a multi-part rant that it's a proven fact. It's a non fact and you're not showing a thing from fascism is based on the teachings of Christ.

    You take the dark moments that show how important it is to focus on the teachings of Christ to be a successful Christian. Then take those to show what? That Christianity is bad? That's wrong at it's core.

    You are flawed in your argument since you can't show anything you actually hate Christianity for and tie it to what Christ taught.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    So what, that proves nothing. You were born after your ancestors died.
    Does that mean none of them existed?

    How can you pretend that makes a difference? Are you saying historians can only research things that happen in their lifetime?

    And you can't show that Stalin and Mao followed the teachings of Christ. That flawed argument makes no sense and yet you pretend it's a relevant fact. It's not.

    You can't tie anything you hate about failed Christians to the actual teachings of Christ. So you fail.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    It's been laid out for you over and over.

    If you are blinded by hatred and bigotry and refuse to accept proof, don't blame us.
    Look inward.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Really?
    Then why is it you can't show a single teaching of Christ that agreed with the evil of Hitler, Stalin, Mao?

    You can't actually line up Christian teachings and the things you blame on Christianity.
    You know only the talking points most hate filled clerics use, nothing more.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Says the paid rented mouth?

    Did your handler have help coming up with that?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Let's see. This is from the guy who has all that plus the added freebies of hate and bigotry.

    As if you're a roll model? Just ignore all the good the largest religion did for the past 100 years or so, ignore the evil of the religion actually forcing people into things, that uses suicide bombers and then pretend to be sane?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Of course they're valid. You just don't like them since it exposes you for a person blinded by bigotry.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    It sure does go towards the argument the Bible lays out history in an accurate manner.

    Oh, you want to ignore that.
    Bigotry is strong in you.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    He will argue with you for hundreds of comments. Then when you've ridden him hard and parked him wet he'll go away angry then come back tomorrow claiming victor and ignoring every single point you've carefully laid out.

    It's just what he does. Do you know how many people I've seen dismantle his points on Hitler doing evil because he was a 'Christian"? That's gone of since his earliest comments.

    It's as if there is an angry cleric whispering in his ear.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Did he live the teachings of Christ?

    You pretend that's not an issue.

    It is the basis for deciding if someone is a Christian.

  • mlcblog

    God put in each of us the ability to recognize Truth. This becomes active when someone accepts God and then the Holy Spirit resides within and we can discern what is true and get past our damages to enjoy a life of inner peace.

  • Eyes_Open

    How do you get that this was intended to represent that this is what happens after we die. He killed the "tree" on earth, in front of earthly witnesses. He didn't say this will happen after you die, he said this is what happens when you disobey me. He cursed the tree "now" why wouldn't people think that they would be cursed "now". And that it was their duty to do the same in his name, he never said "do as I say, not as I do".

    Christians are suppose to be strive to be Christ-like, so why wouldn't they follow his examples and curse (kill) any that disobeyed?

  • Ricky Michael

    Really?

    Yep, that's right I run around cursing every fig tree I find that doen't have figs on it. But they never listen to me and just keep on living. Oh well.

    If what you say is true, then with Christians being as devout as they are, typically, then you should start fearing for your life right now. You are in grave danger. Is this Really the way you feel? Come on, you are not that nieve. I know how smart you are.

  • Eyes_Open

    Ok, I'll tackle this one piece at a time.

    The quote IS from the Bible, you are the one who quoted it. That is what it states, and many churches have used that scripture to justify their deeds.

    "with Christians being as devout as they are" this one can be debated, but the census and polling show that for the most part people that list themselves as Christians aren't very "devout" to their religion.

    "You are in grave danger. Is this Really the way you feel?" Yes, very often. Me and groups that I have worshiped with have been run out of camp sites at gun point, I have personally been threatened many times with physical harm just because of my religion, not because of anything I was actually doing. That is why I always have a firearm and a blade with me.

    Neither of us is nieve, but you should know, these things do still happen with a fair amount of regularity. But if your not a part of the group being harassed you generally see it as a one time isolated event, regardless of how many times you see it happen.

  • Ricky Michael

    You are right, I have not been chased out of a park at gun point. But, neither myself or any of the Christians that I run around with have done the gun pointing either. You can't place everyone into that catagory.

    But, here is a fact that you should also acknowledge. There is a growing WTE attitude toward Christians in this country that is happening right now. I have been persecuted for what I believe, by non-christians. I was even fired from my job because I wouldn't lie for my boss, that would have been against my beliefs. So, placing me cart blanche with these people who have done this to you wouldn't be the correct thing to do. It's always good to assess each person indivually.

    There are a whole lot of "religious" people on this site who can't stand me and my by the book view of the Bible. It messes with their very liberal view.

  • Eyes_Open

    I do judge each person by their action, but groups are judged by their most outspoken members.

    Yes, I do acknowledge the growing backlash in the country against Christians. I blame two things on this action. One, the groups that are conducting the "backlash" have, for the most part, been suppressed by the Christian majority for centuries and only now, with technology opening up the small communities to a larger audience, do they feel safe enough to stand up for themselves. Two, the Christian extremist are becoming more extreme in their attempts to push everyone, demanding that they are the only right ones. (Westboro Baptist are the perfect example).

    The two feed off one another until it comes to a head and violence ensues.

    Refusing to lie isn't just a Christian value, I had to step down from a management position when I worked for a division of Siemens International because I refused to lie to my workers to get them to put in more overtime.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    No, the two don't and violence doesn't need to ensue.

    You pretend that Christians don't follow the teachings of Christ. Those teachings don't lead to violence, a lack of following them does.

  • Ricky Michael

    I don't see it the same way you do. All of us are biased by their belief system. It's a fact of the way we are.

    BTW, your buddy, Mr. Edwards is over on Pakistan Today website insulting Muslims now. He is going to have them after him now.

  • Jesusinator

    What makes your god any more real than the other thousands of god man has made up? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • Eyes_Open

    LOL, oh now that is just funny. I'll have to check in on him when I get the time. Well, at least he is an equal opportunity insulter.

  • Eyes_Open

    I pretend no such thing, this thread is about the fact that such Christians are following Christ example. In the story, he kills the fig tree because it wouldn't obey him, and then told his followers that this is the way it should be. So the Christian followers have been killing people that wouldn't obey them and convert ever since.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Still trying to jump through hoops and don't see the difference between plants and people?

    And Christians are not doing what you say. When did Christians curse non Christians and then watch them die after they left and came back the next morning? Is that a vatican ceremony that has gone unreported?

  • aspacia

    He is just another angry atheist liberal with no rational thought.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    More angry than anything.
    But you're right he has no rational thoughts.

  • mlcblog

    You can search it for yourself.

  • Eyes_Open

    Let's see, dunking people in a river to see if they drowned. If they did then they were innocent, if they didn't they were agents of Satan and were killed. Or pressing them to death with piles of stones to get them to confess, if they confess the church killed them if they didn't the weight of the rocks did. I can go on and on with examples of how the Christian Churches, organizations, and people have use the Bible to justify murdering innocent people for hundreds of years. All of these are historically documented by both the Churches and the secular government, on top of contemporary historians of the times.

  • Jesusinator

    I have, I found nothing <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And where does Christ teach any of that? So, you show when you deviate from Christ's teachings it gets goofy really fast.

    You haven't shown real Christianity is a bad thing at all.

    You silly, silly pagans. Are human sacrifices any better than what you talked about?

    How come you can lecture about monotheisms and ignore what you silly pagans do?

  • Eyes_Open

    No one of MY religion has ever sacrificed anyone, or killed them for not converting, to crushed them because we "thought" the devil might be in them. You can't honestly claim the same thing.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You just lumped all Christians together, so why shouldn't I lump all pagans together?

    And pagans have a long history of human sacrifice. Not even the chance of innocence protecting the child / infant sacrifices done for Baal or molok.

  • Eyes_Open

    Like I've told you a 100 times, you ignorant fool, Christianity is a religion, Pagan is a classification. You are comparing apples to oranges. But them again you probably can't tell the difference between them either.

    Wiccans have never sacrificed anything to anyone. Christians have killed to force conversion.

    Facts are not your friends. but then again, no one is your friend. Poor pathetic Woger, failed author, fail husband, failed businessman, failed pastor, failed blogger, and now failed Christian.

    Too FAILED for me to waste anymore of my time on.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    And I've explained to you 101 times that Christianity is a classification of different relations. Orthodox churches don't like or deserve to be lumped together with pentecostal religions.

    So, both are classifications of religions.

    And since you lump mine together I return the favor, you silly silly pagan you.

    How goes all those human sacrifices?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    You have your own flavor, mixed with double the normal hate.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

    Unfortunately.
    You sound like you even consider it a good thing.