The Absurdity of Treating a Terrorist Gang Like a State

The currently suspended missile duel between Israel and Hamas exposes yet again the surreal absurdity of the way the international community handles this conflict between a democratic state and a terrorist gang. Yesterday’s cease-fire agreement between Israel and Hamas is another example of the folly of treating a bunch of murderers like a legitimate government.

Consider, for example, the way a terrorist outfit like Hamas, self-defined in its charter by its genocidal goals, is treated as if it were a legitimate state. But Hamas is not a government that rules over a sovereign territory defined by international borders. If you want a recent graphic illustration of Hamas’ true nature, peruse this video of the aftermath of the summary execution of 6 accused “collaborators.” Or consider Hamas’ official television coverage of this week’s terrorist bombing of a bus in Israel. Or contemplate the barbarity of using its own “citizens” as human shields for its munitions dumps and rocket launchers. Calling Hamas honcho Ismail Haniyeh a “Prime Minister,” as virtually every world government and news organization does, doesn’t mean he is actually a prime minister, no matter how many elections are held. These titles and voting procedures do not constitute a legitimate government that should be recognized as such by the world community as though it respects international laws and treaties like the Geneva Conventions. Let alone should this façade of political legitimacy rationalize the millions of dollars Western governments give to Hamas under the guise of U.N. aid for social services, freeing up funds for purchasing weapons and munitions.

The same pretence of state legitimacy is equally absurd in the case of Palestinian “President” Mahmoud Abbas, the holocaust-denying head of the Palestinian Authority, which is recognized as the sole representative of the Palestinians instead of the terrorist Palestinian Liberation Organization ever since the cosmetic makeover brought about by the 1993 Oslo Accords. The PA is still just another terrorist gang, as demonstrated by its frequent honoring of terrorist murderers by naming streets and parks after them, and its clinging to the goal of destroying Israel through demands for territorial concessions and the “right of return” for an endlessly growing number of “refugees.” As such, the PA’s main functions include peddling to the international community the “two-state” and “nationalist aspirations” canard in order to delegitimize Israel and obtain money, and to distribute to its people whatever international financial aid is left over after PA fatcats have skimmed their take. Yet today as in the past, the U.S. is intervening in the current conflict to ensure that Abbas rather than Hamas is the “primary interlocutor with the international community,” as the Wall Street Journal reported, because it allegedly is more “legitimate” and “moderate”––the only sign of its moderation being that it believes Israel should be destroyed later rather than sooner.

Of course, totalitarian regimes for decades have appropriated the government titles and offices of legitimate governments, but at least a state like the laughably named Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea actually controls a recognized territory defined by international borders (except for the armistice line in the south). That hypocrisy is bad enough, but extending it to terrorists whose sole foundation for existence is the destruction of a neighboring legitimate nation compounds hypocrisy with delusion. It demands that superficial nomenclature substitute for reality. After all, as Plato pointed out, a gang of thieves behaves “democratically” when it divvies up the loot. But that machinery does not signify the presence of the principles and beliefs that constitute legitimate government.

That absurdity leads to another––the “negotiations” and “diplomacy” in which legitimate and technically legitimate states participate when dealing with this terrorist gang. This absurdity is compounded when one of those states is Egypt and its rulers the Muslim Brotherhood. Asking Egyptian president Mohammed Morsi to intercede with its offspring Hamas is akin to asking Hitler in early1938 to intercede with its stooge Sudeten Nazi Party to stop its violence against the government of Czechoslovakia. Morsi does not object to Hamas’ rain of missiles on principle. Indeed, the Iranian Fajr-5 missiles able to hit Tel Aviv reached Gaza by transiting Egyptian territory on their way from Sudan. No, the Egyptians are trying to restrain Hamas on tactical grounds. Given that the Muslim Brothers have not yet consolidated its power or control over the army, and that Egypt is near bankruptcy and dependent on a promised $9 billion in aid from the EU, the IMF, and the U.S., Morsi doesn’t need Hamas and Islamic Jihad causing problems right now. And his role in mediating the cease-fire has endowed this soldier in the “grand jihad” against the West immense international praise and prestige.

And how despicable is it to watch a state like Turkey, a member of NATO and thus an ally of the U.S., send its foreign minister to Gaza to show “solidarity with the Palestinian nation’s [sic] suffering”? Or to hear its Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan––Obama’s international BFF he’s scheduled to visit soon––say, “Israel is a terror state and its acts are terrorist acts”? Isn’t anyone else disgusted by this spectacle of “solidarity” with an actual terrorist outfit whose foundational charter calls for genocide, and that indiscriminately rains missiles down on its neighbor? There is no doubt that Hamas is emboldened in its intransigence by this diplomatic support from legitimate states, or visits by U.N. chief Ban Ki-Moon, or news agencies like CNN interviewing Hamas foreign policy spokesman Osama Hamdan, all of which are as important as the rockets and other weapons provided by Iran.

Yet despite this manifest absurdity of treating a gang of murderers as though it were a legitimate state, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton jetted to the region, putting the full force of American prestige to securing a cease-fire agreement with such a gang, one that regards such agreements as mere tactics that allow the ongoing war of extermination against Israel to continue. Equally disturbing is the price America will pay for Egypt and Turkey’s help in bringing about this for now vague, fragile cease-fire that’s supposed to be enforced by the same Egyptian government that allowed the most dangerous rockets into Gaza in the first place. As Jonathan Tobin speculates, the cost of cooperation is likely to be more pressure on Israel to make yet more concessions in pursuit of a mythical “land-for-peace” bargain that repeatedly in the past has led to more terrorist violence. Indeed, the incessant barrage of rockets and other terrorist attacks from Gaza for the past seven years have taken place because Israel withdrew from Gaza as a gesture to that grand bargain. Imagine the damage Fajr-5 rockets could inflict on Tel Aviv if fired from a West Bank handed over to the PA.

A cease-fire now will no more resolve the conflict any more than did the more violent and costly Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009. As long as the international community and Israel’s allies continue to treat a nest of murderers as a state deserving of international aid and legitimacy, instead of as terrorist outlaws to be hunted down and destroyed, Israel will have to pay a very high price to end Hamas’ terrorism.

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  • objectivefactsmatter

    "The PA is still just another terrorist gang, as demonstrated by its frequent honoring of terrorist murderers by naming streets and parks after them.

    The clues are not hard to find unless you're trying to be willfully blind.

  • Mladen Andrijasevic

    So we have a cease- fire with an organization which in its Charter has the following Article 7:
    http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1609.h

    “The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: ‘Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,’ except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews.”

    Article 7 is taken from Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177 and quotes the Prophet Muhammad:
    http://www.hadithcollection.com/sahihbukhari/85/3

    Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”

    Anybody wants to guess what has greater sway over Hamas – the terms of cease-fire agreement or the words of the Prophet?

    • objectivefactsmatter

      Liberal replies: But the Bible has violent passages…isn't that more or less the same thing?

      • tinydancer2010

        That's why Liberal's voted yet again for OTraitor. Because they just can't tell the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. They call it 'subjective.'

        • objectivefactsmatter

          Precisely. They call it "subjective" on the way to justifying evil as their "preference."

          "Obama is no better or worse than any other politician. They all lie, but I prefer his ideas."

      • Mary Sue

        Liberals fail to realize:

        1) The Bible has a little something called Context
        2) The Koran has none

    • Mary Sue

      Who's up for planting a whole mess of Gharqad trees?

  • http://www.adinakutnicki.com AdinaK

    Here are some more minefields, thus putting paid to Israel's leaders dangerous delusions – Islam and Blood are inextricably tied – http://adinakutnicki.com/2012/07/13/islam-blood-a… thus VANQUISHING our enemies is the only way to 'cease' the firings!

    And Israel's ship of fools keep marching along, with Bibi at the head of the pack, regardless of his/their blatherings ('what we see from here, you don't see from there', except that over a million southern citizens do SEE the missiles/rockets terrorizing their lives, and for yrs too!) http://adinakutnicki.com/2012/07/15/israels-ship-

    And most consequentially, this war IS the direct result of the bitter fruits of 'disengagement' – http://adinakutnicki.com/2012/06/22/the-bitter-fr

    We are where we are due to all of the above, and so much more!
    Adina Kutnicki, Israel – http://www.adinkutnicki.com/about/

    • JacksonPearson

      Sadly, Bibi blathers, but isn't his own person. He's instead, an Obama sock puppet.

  • Arlie

    This is a horror story. My deepest heartfelt prayers to the terrorized Israelis and the families who are grieving for loved ones and the two soldiers that died waiting bravely to defend their God given land. The UN and American bureaucrats have sided with evil and are as cowardly as the ones firing the rockets at the innocent people in Israel. Many Americans prayed that 0 would not be elected but somehow he managed to steal the election and I don't understand why Israel would believe or trust anything coming from 0, Clinton, Morsi, Erdogan, or Ki-Moonbat. Is it because of the upcoming elections in Israel. Why did they stop fighting? Now Egypt will get more money from the bankrupt US and Hamas will live to terrorize again. This is very disturbing and troubling for all free people everywhere. I want to thank Mr. Thornton for the thorough assessment in this article and yet the truth is causing sorrow and terror to my heart for I love Israel and their great joyous nature and courage. God Bless and Save us All.

  • Matt

    I will tell you something of Belfast, not long after the deal the UK were fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, as long as there is a death toll and some progress, peace remains. But after all those year no police powers, so the militants get restless, no progress. Now in the Ireland parliament, recession, independence for other UK states Scotland, perhaps Wales. But if armed resistance had continued and the UK was on three fronts. So it is progress that keeps the peace, but in the end, if the goal is not see to be achieved or no progress. So it is shaky, so for negotiations, but the US tried that Mitchell, Blair, Adams, but long term NI is not a model for either peace or non violent resistance yet.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "I will tell you something of Belfast"

      This has as much in common with Ireland as it does with any other conflict within the civilized nations, which is to say, not a whole lot.

    • grayzel

      Yup, just "Give Peace a Chance." (sarc)

    • interested

      Matt, I didn't understand a word you said. Try formulating sentences, that would help. Logical arguments too, tend to help get the point across. I'm sure you have a valid contribution to the debate, if only we could decipher your post.

  • Mary Sue

    despawn, how about you go fix gang problems before ragging on Israel?

    • objectivefactsmatter

      Their fantasy upside-down world position that Israel is a "terror state" is repeated by all of the leading asinine leftover left, and of course our friends the Islamic supremacists, who just love to get their facts straight…before inverting them entirely.

      They must think the entire world is clueless about what sovereignty means, due process, and about the laws and customs established over the centuries in the only true civilization the world has seen: Judeo Christianity. These things distinguish us from the terrorists, their completely deceptive rhetoric (usually containing outright lies), and from the dupes in the West who dream about the world "evolving past Christianity" towards a Utopian future where the machines do all of the work and all men and women (and trans) share equally.

      What a joy to hear from contributors like this super-intelligent, creative and noble person. I just wanted to try to invert a statement that was blatantly obvious in to a false one as they do.

    • Tact

      good one

  • objectivefactsmatter

    "When you say that it's absurd to treat a terrorist gang line a state, you're taking about israel, right?"

    Wow, another child-clown to play "opposite man."

  • SHmuelHaLevi

    Come on people. let Mr. deshawn vent. I'll try to be nice to you deshawn. Hard as it may be.
    This is real story.
    The Islamic cult of death infiltrated into Eretz Israel a ghastly accumulation of their worst Hamulas.
    Eretz Israel is, Mr. deshawn, the Land of Israel, the Jewish people for thousands of years before the Islamic abomination was spawned and spread like toxic weeds And yousee Mr. deshawn, that is the way it is going to be. The savage hordes will be put down hard. We have tried for long enough to flex before those monsters but time is up.
    Your people has slaughterd, raped, bombed enough Christians, Jews and other creeds. The tide is moving around. Play not with delutions. Netanyahu will be set aside and the Oslo era is over.
    A guess earlier today some savages got that message near the fence in Aza..

  • jamie

    The Absurdity of Treating a Terrorist Gang Like a State

    The same could be said about the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

    Oh, sorry, no we couldn't, I forgot they're US's best friends and allies.

  • WilliamJamesWard

    All of the reasons in this article showing Hamas as a terrorist organization attacking Israel
    are sufficient for any civilised Nation to go to war to protect itself. Surely they are also very
    good reasons to continue the conflict until Hamas is wiped from the face of the Earth and
    the land established as Israeli territory. What did Israel get from the cease fire negotiated
    by disreputable parties, is Hamas being disarmed, removed from the land, made to sign
    articles of peace assured by the mediators, no, nothing, nada, zero. Look forward to the
    same fight on a new day, nothing resolved……………………..William

  • tinydancer2010

    I worry, also, about the generation growing up now that will never know a time when there was a real peace. Me thinks of "1984."

  • Selmainboca

    deformed, I have a cesspool for you to clean – surely a loser like you is suited for this kind of work.

  • David R

    Blind fool…I pity you, and hope that the God of the blessed Jews will have pity on you before the day of judgement where you'll have to give an account for your hatred of His people and explain to a Holy God why you sided with darkness. I would be absolutely terrorized at the thought if I were you.

  • bluffcreek1967

    Is it not clear by now that Muslims don't belong in civilized, White Western nations? How much more of this can we take? Muslims interpret kindness toward them as weakness. They respect, so to speak, only strength and reciprocal violence.

    We must fight back somehow. Here are some small things we can do in the meantime: Don't do business with Muslims. Don't smile or greet them on the streets. When they inquire, tell them exactly what you think of their evil religion. Warn your friends and neighbors of this murderous cult based on the teachings of their pedophile prophet. Make it normal to laugh at and ridicule Islam. Read up on the best scholarly books critical of Islam (Robert Spencer is a good author to start with!). Pass out newspaper clippings on how Muslims perform honor killings, mutilate girls, and subjugate women. And stop worrying about what people might think of you or what they might say (e.g., 'racist,' 'intolerant'). In other words, start your own propaganda efforts against Islam and Muslims themselves based on truth and historical facts.

    Don't worry, they already hate you and the so-called 'moderate Muslims' won't lift a finger or raise a voice to ever help you.

    • poetcomic1

      And put a bumper sticker on your car 'ALL I NEED TO KNOW ABOUT ISLAM I LEARNED ON 9/11"
      But take it from me personally, don't be surprised when your car gets keyed, trashed and etc. We are no longer free and live, de facto, under sharia law.

    • Mary Sue

      You know it's a sad day when the "heaping coals of fire" verse is rendered ineffective among at least one group.

    • thinktank

      Excellent advice! I have been doing sugested small things for years.

    • BS77

      Read the books by Brigitte Gabrielle too. Do not be willfully ignorant.

  • Western Spirit

    Christians are commanded to pray for the peace of Jerusalem so peace there must be of utmost importance because I think a conflagration involving the whole world can be started there.

  • dennis metz

    funny how obummer and the democraps would support a state for terrorist but if it came to the point some states would rather dissolve the Union with the rest of the states they would not support their right .

  • grayzel

    I would think the question should be, how long will the Israeli people stand for these useless ideas that a permanent peace with a terrorist people is even possible?

  • Ghostwriter

    Somehow,I've got a feeling that this ceasefire isn't going to last very long.

    • BS77

      It's not really a true ceasefire…it's a pause for Hamas thugs to smuggle in more rockets and explosives and to prepare for the next phase of attacks……….Any negotiated agreements or treaties with Hamas are to be regarded as just "scraps of paper".

  • riverboatbill

    Why no? They also do this for Illinois.

  • Mary Sue

    How much do you want to bet that if a bunch of inane hippie "flower children" were to go around with daisies and attempt to push them in the barrels of terrorist kalashnikovs, they'd be blown away before they got within 5 feet?

  • Flowerknife_us

    This is the beginning of the Fifth Crusade. May the end be an improvement over the first four

  • ross1948

    One spin-off benefit of the cease-fire is that it gives more time for Jakarta's islamoNazi FPI to recruit volunteers.
    http://rossrightangle.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/is

    Indomesia would be heaps nicer if they all went off to Gaza, and I suspect their fighting qualities (honed on terrorising office-workers who want a bite to eat during Ramadan) plus the expertise of the IDF, would ensure that few would return to resume troubling this beautiful country!

  • Western Spirit

    All of the Left's views are absurd. This is just one example of their absurdity but people can be taken in if pronouncements are absurd enough. Remember Hitler's admonition about ties, the bigger the better and the more believable.

    Intelligence is not the answer to people believing this garbage. in fact the duller the person the less likely they are to be taken in because they haven't the imagination or will to believe just anything.

    So calling the Left's followers stupid is stupid when what ails them is their will to believe, making them the willfully blind.

    • Chris

      Liberalism, is intellectualism for those too stupid or lazy to actually think for themselves.
      The logic is irrefutable:

      Liberals are the smart people because only smart people are liberals.
      Q.e.d.
      Doesn't have to make sense. Smart liberals will "understand"

  • LindaRivera

    Judge William Young sentencing "shoe bomber" Richard Reid to prison:

    We do not negotiate with terrorists. We do not meet with terrorists. We do not sign documents with terrorists. We hunt them down one by one and bring them to justice.

    If only we had patriotic, ethical leaders like this judge, running our country.

    • Chris

      Well that cuts out Obama and the entire democrat party.

  • brianrichardallen

    Some simple Truths:

    Mohamidism is a malignantly-metastasizing murderous manifestation of evil and always has been is and will forever be unassimilable into and incompatible with Civilized Society.

    "Radical" islam is The Beast.

    "Moderate" islam is its Trojan Horse.

    Judeo-Christian/Western/Human Civilization is the Modern Era's Troy.

    And Civilization's self and own-culture-loathing Leftards are its Greeks.

  • Ken Kelso

    Israel’s measures are aimed only against terrorist activity wherever it originates.
    We all know Hamas hided behind women and children.

    “Hamas and Israel fired an approximately equal number of rockets at one another during the eight days of fighting. The difference was that Israel aimed its rockets at specific (mostly military) targets, while Hamas fired indiscriminately at Israeli population centers.
    Yes, look at the victims. Here is Hamas’s own count for the past 11 years:
    •4303 terror attacks
    •61 suicide attacks
    •24 attempts to capture Israelis
    •423 bombings
    •90 sniper attacks
    •146 ambushes
    In addition, they claim 8085 projectiles fired from Gaza, of which 2627 were Qassam rockets and 303 were Grad rockets.
    They claim to have killed 910 “Zionists” in that time period, while losing 1697 of their members. Not civilians – 1697 dead Hamas terrorists. This doesn’t include members of other terror groups like Fatah and Islamic Jihad.
    This included:
    •The massacre at the Mercaz Harav yeshiva killing 8 students
    •The attack by a laser-guided anti-tank missile against a schoolbus, killing a child (that they claim was a “soldier”)
    •The Park Hotel Passover massacre killing 30, mostly elderly, Jews. (Hamas inflates the number of victims to 36)
    And here are some of the suicide bomb attacks for which Hamas claimed responsibility, in the period 1994 to 2006:
    No. 32A bus, mainly carrying Israeli schoolchildren, Patt junction, Jerusalem
    19 dead, 70 injured
    Sbarro Pizzeria, Jerusalem
    15 dead, 130 injured
    Snooker club, Rishon Letzion
    15 dead, 55 injured
    Student cafeteria, Hebrew University , Jerusalem
    10 dead, 85 injured
    Park Hotel Passover meal, Netanya
    30 dead, 140 injured
    And so on.

  • Ken Kelso

    More proof how Golda Meir was right.
    http://honestreporting.com/hamas-using-hospital-a
    Hamas Using Hospital As Cover for Rocket Launch
    PESACH BENSON
    11/21/12

    HAMAS ACKNOWLEDGED THIS. ACCORDING TO THE INDEPENDENT:
    Hamas officials at the hospital were asked how firing rockets from such a built-up area could be justified as it is likely to provoke Israeli action. One said Palestinians were merely defending themselves, another that it was probably the work of the Islamic Jihad militia.
    In other words, It wasn’t me, and it’s no big deal anyway. But it’ll be screams of bloody murder if the IDF so much as double parks in front of the entrance.

    The Globe & Mail‘s Patrick Martin reports that Palestinians launched rockets at Israel in proximity to Shifa Hospital. Here’s a screengrab from G&M feed run by the paper’s multi-media journalist, Affan Chowdhry.

    As my daughter said about the likelihood of Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh hiding in Shifa Hospital, aizeh chutzpah!

    So what is new here? All the Islamic mentality uses the same expression of freedom in screaming how bad the Jews are, how unfortunate they are, Israeli aggression, they hide behind the skirts of women use human shields and utilize civilian areas to fire missiles.
    These Islamics have less bravery than the women who serve in the IDF, who show such courage.
    What a load of wimps these Arabs are. They can only win their ways buy support from the west who digest their lies eagely.

  • Ken Kelso

    http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=2926
    Dealing with Hamas’s human shield tactics
    YAAKOV LAPPIN
    11/20/2012

    Pilots often ordered to call off air strikes at last moment.
    The radio message to the Israel Air Force pilot en route to bombing a Hamas rocket launcher in Gaza came in loud and clear: Abort mission.
    Civilians spotted, the pilot was told.

    It was one of many occasions in which pilots were ordered to call off air strikes in the last moment, after real-time footage of the target area revealed the presence of Palestinian non-combatants.
    The IAF is dealing with an enemy keen on using the densely populated Gaza Strip as a rocket base, often shooting the projectiles from the tops of residential buildings, or near schools, mosques, and other public places.

    Such tactics are not new for Hamas and Islamic Jihad. In recent years, Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya declared that “the Palestinians are a nation of jihad and martyrdom,” while Hamas MP Fathi Hamed, addressing Israel, said, “We desire death more than you desire life.

    Hamed went on to state that, “For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel… the elderly excel at this… and so do the children.
    This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children.”

    Hamas TV campaigns instruct the population that “bombs are more precious than children.”
    In line with this ideology, rockets and explosives are hidden in Gazan homes, and senior terrorists, such as Yahiya Abiya, the head of Hamas’s rocket program, often remain in homes surrounded by civilians.

    While the IDF makes major efforts to avoid harming civilians, such as distributing warning leaflets instructing noncombatants to stay away from areas used by Hamas to fire on Israel, phoning- in warnings, and deliberately missing targets on the first strike, to give civilians time to leave, these attempts at caution don’t always succeed.

    In the case of Abiya, the air strike killed 10 Palestinian civilians, according to the Hamas-run health ministry.
    While Abiya was hit in the strike, it seems fair to assume that IDF planners were not aware of the fact that the home was filled with noncombatants as well.
    Each air strike carries its own cost-risk analysis, a calculation influenced by the level of threat posed by the intended target.

    Yahiya was responsible for firing thousands upon thousands of rockets at Ashdod, Beersheba, and Ashkelon, and would have been seen as a high-value target.
    This won’t be the last time that senior Hamas terrorists will seek cover behind Palestinian civilians.

  • Ken Kelso

    If Richard Falk is so concerned about Gazan children being killed, why isn't he pressuring Hamas to stop hiding among children?

  • Ken Kelso

    I think we can agree with one thing as the Palestinians like to say.
    The Arabs want death and the Jews want life.

  • Ken Kelso

    It's about the Israel Foreign Ministry expose this inhuman tactic to the world.
    Israel should provide the evidence (Which we have plenty of it) that Hamas is not only hiding behind women and children but are inviting the IAF to hit them, so that they can benefit monetarily with images of victimhood, to collect money from the Arab world and Iran. This form of human sacrifice is acceptable in Islam.

    • Mary Sue

      yeah.

      Only problem is, the Leftard Anti-Semites will simply call this "propaganda" and "lies".

  • Ken Kelso

    What sick demented leaders the Terrorstinians have. Golda Meir was so right about them.
    Not since the Nazis who sacrificed millions of their own citizens has a group of criminal gangs like the Arabs sacrificed so many civilians including their children for Pallywood purposes.. Hamas does the same.Crimes against humanity not only against Israel ,but their own people.May they be tried like the Nazis were at Nuremburg!!