Mormons Have Irrational Beliefs? Who Doesn’t?


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Commentators on both the right and left and both secular and religious note with disdain that Mormons (Latter Day Saints, as Mormons refer to themselves) have irrational practices and beliefs. The former, we are told, includes the wearing of sacred undergarments and the latter includes posthumous baptisms and the claims by the prophet of Mormonism to have found and deciphered engraved golden plates in New York State.

I read and hear these dismissals of Mormonism with some amusement — because everyone who makes these charges holds beliefs and/or practices that outsiders consider just as irrational.

Let’s begin with the religious critics.

There doesn’t exist a religion without such beliefs. I say this as a believing and practicing (non-Orthodox) Jew, so I’ll begin with my own religion.

I believe the Torah is a divine book. I believe that God took the Jews out of Egypt and that He gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai. To atheists and secularists, these are not necessarily rational beliefs. And they are certainly not scientifically provable. As for practices that many would consider irrational, traditional Judaism has quite a few. Just to cite one: Orthodox Jews believe that they are not permitted to drink wine or grape juice poured by a non-Jew.

Concerning Mormon undergarments, it is worth noting that Jews have worn a “sacred undergarment” for thousands of years. Those who belittle Mormon undergarments might as well belittle the “fringes” (tzitzit) that observant Jewish men wear inside or outside their clothing. Yet, neither the Jewish nor the Mormon practice is in any way irrational. Wearing a garment to remind oneself to always act in a morally elevated manner hardly constitutes irrational behavior.

As for Christianity, non-Christians cannot be expected to regard the belief that God has a son who was born of a virgin as reason-based. (If they did, they would probably be Christian.) Nor do outsiders consider rational the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox belief that the wafer and wine consumed during Communion literally become the body and blood of Christ.

As for Muslims, the belief that the Koran was dictated by an angel to an illiterate man (Islam holds that Muhammad was illiterate) is surely not rational to a non-Muslim.

Nor are myriad post-Koranic beliefs such as the requirement that women wear a veil.

If all religious beliefs were dictated by reason alone, there would be no meaning to the word faith. A healthy religious life is composed of both faith and reason. And so is a healthy moral life — no non-Jewish rescuer of Jews in the Holocaust did so solely because of reason.

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  • Wordy

    C’mon, Dennis. You should know better than to use the “two wrongs make a right” argument. You can’t justify one irrational belief with another irrational belief. We shouldn’t have ANY irrational beliefs. Our lives should be based on reason, NOT reason AND irrational beliefs or faiths.

    • Sage on the Stage

      "We shouldn't have ANY irrational beliefs. Our lives should be based on reason…" So how do you explain the Shroud of Turin? Today's best scientists can tell us what its NOT, but they can't quite tell us what it IS.

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

        Sadly, you pretend that the Shroud makes a difference in the faith of Christians.
        It's just another example of your hate filled bigotry attacking Christianity out of an agenda driven set of talking points.

        So muslim friendly, again.

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

        And some experts would examine your talking points and consider them amazingly bigoted and muslim friendly.

        You just hate Christianity, we get that.

      • mlcblog

        I don't need science to tell me the shroud may be real.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          That is because your hate and bigotry had blinded you to any possibility that you don't really have a problem with Christ.

          And yet you ignore all those same issues with islam.

        • mlcblog

          I disagree. I think/ observe that you find it not hard but impossible to believe in the divinity of Jesus the Christ, especially while you and because you stick with your "facts," such as the gigantism theory.

          • Jesusinator

            No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Sure there is.
            And you can read about them when Josephus recorded information about his life.

            But any that come up, you say it's biased and ignore, I say that your hate and bigotry is biased and you should ignore that too.

          • patriothere

            Josephus is not a credible source.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            More reliable than you are. He never went off about throwing people from temples.

            6 minutes ago @ Breitbart.com – Protests to greet Ahma… · 1 reply · 0 points
            I'm like jesus, I'm gonna chase you money changers out of the temple and out of town and of course out of this forum. Me and ohsoquiet and a few other REAL AMERICANS who are being PAID to be here like you Israeli PR men. I'm here to chase you filth out.

          • patriothere

            You can't read in context. Not my problem. Jesus never wrote anything and there are no busts of him. .

          • Kevin Stowell

            Maybe he's never been busted. Pretty clean liver, that one, or so I've heard.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            As if we would want busts.

            Jesus was too busy to pose for artists.

          • Kevin Stowell

            That was an odd post. No one's ever made a bust of me but I know I exist. I believe the summer heat is getting to be a real problem for the already-unstable.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Are you sure you exist? Have you been proven today?

            He thinks that until facts are proven each day we don't know it exists.

            You know where that came from? KeithisGreat. He's a recycled keithie! I wondered why keithie dropped out of site so completely, he's just under a new and more retarded name.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            For some reason the moderators are censoring my responses with no foul language or hate speech.

          • Kevin Stowell

            Whiners are probably getting to the mods. Over time, the places Spanky has told me he's been banned from are pretty numerous and you know how civil he always is.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            I know coggy and wee wee organized and got me bumped from a couple about 6 months ago, they were bragging about it.

            So, it's nothing new. When they can't win debate with ideas they start the old saul alinsky routines.

          • Coggy

            oooh, saul alinsky! your hero.

            wah wah wah, would like a Kleenex for your tears Roger?

            I don't consider the games you try to win to be "debate", so, why should I play anyway?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Oh coggy, did you just get out of another muslim potluck?

            Is that halil food still giving you bad smelly gas?

          • Looking4Sanity

            I think they may have added a couple new keywords to their automated moderating software program. There is one in particular that I notice seems to trip it these days.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Something that rhythms with 'stupid'?

          • Looking4Sanity

            Yes…actually. It begins with “m” and ends with “n”. Perhaps they thought it was being unfair or insensitive to the legitimately mentally handicapped? I've noticed that all posts using that particular synonym get disappeared.It's not bad enough that we live in a society restricted in thought by a liberal public education system. Now they're actively shrinking our vocabulary. It's insidious.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Oh, you mean the "mmoronn" word?

            But the mmoronn's are still allowed to post.
            How progressive of some moderator.

          • Looking4Sanity

            I haven't definitively tested my theory, but your intentional mis-spelling of it indicates your belief in the veracity of my suspicion. Testing the theory would be as simple as posting a comment containing nothing but that word and seeing what happens.A simple “stimuli and response” experiment.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Are you suggesting I use the word moron?
            It's beneath my dignity. I strive for a level of discourse above that. I'm shocked you think I would consider the word moron.

            Simply shocked.

          • Looking4Sanity

            I stand corrected. My hypothesis has been proven false. For the record…no…I do not believe you are above calling a spade a spade.All that aside, there is another, as yet unidentified causality, that still needs to be quantified. I'm open to suggestions.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            We both know that some of the trolls here are morons. We know they enjoy being morons. I would think they breed carefully to ensure the traits don't fade out.

            But I would never consider it dignified to laugh hard as I say so.

          • Looking4Sanity

            Dignity is an illusion I gave up long ago. We're all in the mud together. Which of us die or survive is almost entirely up to us.

          • Looking4Sanity

            Also…I propose using the synonym "cretin" as a viable substitute in the future. Let's see how many adjectives they're actually willing to forbid.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            I do so hate to insult cretins.

          • mlcblog

            I used to go on logic along, like you apparently, but then He won my heart.

      • mlcblog

        Those so-called experts carry the disbelieving prejudice within their studies.

        How about the expert who wept when he looked at the threads under the microscope, for he realized what he was looking at?

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          What expert to you have?

          Do you have links or anything?Why is it you only come here to share hatred and bigotry?

          And you don't realize that atheism has brain washed you into ignoring possibilities.

        • mlcblog

          I'll let you do the research. It is there for anyone who wants to find it. Many believers in Christ served in the matter of the Turin shroud.

  • Pascal

    I, as a Mormon, actually like that article. But here is something I'd really like to add, because I fear it will get lost, although it's essential for understanding us (and believers of all faiths, including those referring to reason as exclusive "revelation" source):

    As believers, we regard our own faiths as logical, because we generally tend to understand it better than outsiders. I, for example, believe that the restored Gospel of Christ as it's taught by the LDS Church is logical, because – given some understanding – there are no anachronisms in it. None. All pieces fit perfectly when put together. Regarding this as evidence that there might be some truth in it is, to me, the peak of reason-based thinking. Pure denial isn't. If you go into science, especially advanced-level physics (the area where I come from), and look at all the things that keep this universe going, you'll almost necessarily come to the conclusion that there must be someone who put it to work. Take the Planck Quantum: Among other things, it describes how far an electron can be away from its nucleus. Turns out, when you compare the portions of distance where there can be an electron to the portions where there can't be an electron, they relate to each other like the depth of a sheet of paper to the distance between the Earth and the Moon. And there is no explanation for this constant, because it's a constant – It's universal law. It's just there. Now, if this constant was different – just a tiny little different – the force exhibited by the nucleus onto the electron would force it to either get out of the atom, or to crash into the nucleus. This universe would look a lot different if this was the case, given there would be a universe at all (which is rather unlikely).
    Someone who regards this as random and not controlled by some kind of higher power is, to me, absolutely insane. I'm sorry for my choice of words. Even my physics professor, who is an atheist, told us the same thing when he taught us about the Planck Quantum.
    And this, coming to an end, is our view of God; He's not that ex-nihilo-creator taught by many other religions, but he arranged the matter of the already existant universe so that it would fit best for the things he planned with it. At least in this context, I don't find my faith unreasonable. But even if I did, would it matter?

    • elihu

      "And this, coming to an end, is our view of God; He's not that ex-nihilo-creator taught by many other religions, but he arranged the matter of the already existant universe so that it would fit best for the things he planned with it."

      Would you care to speculate on just who, or what, created 'the matter of the already existant (sic) universe?

      Just curious…

      • Pascal

        Thanks for this question. I think everyone should be free to answer this question themselves. And you're right: Existent. Sometimes this not-being-a-native-speaker topic still shines through.

  • crackerjack

    In a free society, everyone is free to follow his or her own personal beliefs. Problems start with the attempt to impose these religious beliefs on others or on society as a whole. This is why the founding fathers made sure that religion be kept out of the nations goverment and administration………………….

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    • Carl

      "This is why the founding fathers made sure that religion be kept out of the nations goverment and administration."
      Partially agree.

      The founding fathers wanted to be certain that no one religion or set of religious beliefs was the official religion of the country or allowed to dominate or infringe on the rights of other religions. They also wanted to ensure that all religions were able to be freely exercised by anyone (including politicians). The roots of American government are firmly planted in Judeo-Christian comcepts of right and wrong. The laws themselves are not Jewish, Christian, or belonging to any other faith. The morals (including the religious morals) of those who created the laws helped to shape them. Whether someone believes in an organized religion, their own personal understanding of spirituality, or in the complete absence of any higher power, they are still believing in something science can't prove. Those beliefs are all permissible within government officials (and anyone else) according to the founding fathers and, whatever their beliefs, they will inevitably shape some of the laws enacted.

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

        Oh come on, you're just a hate filled bigot that ignores what ever it takes to support your muslim friendly positions.

        The declaration of independence makes it clear they believed in the Creator, the Creator from the Church of England in all probability. Even Deists believe in God, just not organized religion.

        You are such a troll. Sitting at your work terminal during work hours struggling to make your quota of hateful comments.

        • patriothere

          No you are really stretching it and are always wrong. Read thomas paine. They make it clear they were fleeing christian europe. The founders were freemasons who started their OWN religion. They were into the occult. Just like the Nazis were. The US is not a christian nation. Ask your mom.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            They were fleeing oppressive state churches, not the God that created them. And you as an Iranian mouthpiece don't understand about occults, you have islam and just attack anything outside your cleric's normal training.

          • patriothere

            They were fleeing all the old religions and started their own. Freemasonry. Most of the founders were freemasons and deep into the masonic order. They were not a part of judeo-christianity and they were liberals to the core. I know you don't have an understanding of the occult because you have never read about the Nazis and occult and the connection to the Founders and the occult.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            They were not starting their own.
            They brought religion with them, it was the 'puritans' that landed on Plymouth rock.
            But they weren't forced to be puritans, thanks to secular government and freedom of religion.

      • Bounsy

        I did not say that the U.S. was founded on the Christian religion. In fact, I explicitly stated that the founding fathers wanted no religion to be the official religion, which agrees with what you said.

        I did say that the laws were rooted in general Judeo-Christian morals, which they are. For example, the so-called "Good Samaritan" laws which allow someone to help another in need without serious risk of consequences. Some other countries hold the helper as responsible and possibly even liable unless they can explicitly prove that they are not at fault.

        Being founded on Judeo-Christian morals and ethics is very different from saying that the Constitution dictates the nature of God or some other matter of faith and belief. The Constitution (and other laws) have no right to do so, as that would be establishing religion.

        Conversely, as I stated, just as no laws can tell someone what to believe, they can also not dictate what not to believe. Belief in God, Allah, the tooth fairy, or none of the above is–by law–neither required nor forbidden. All may believe whatever they will. That includes politicians.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          Oh come on bounsy, you come here as a guest (meaning you want to hide your history of comments) and pretend that you can flip flop around and still be taken seriously?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            You came on as a guest when you were trying to pretend you had a girlfriend.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Do you stare at obama's ears and wonder how your hands would fit around them?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            What does that have to do with you never having a girlfriend before?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            What does my privacy have to do with your calling for beheadings and violence?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I never called for beheadings and violence.

            And you never has a girlfriend…why?

            Remember when you said this about your girlfriend?….

            "………………………………………………"

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Why the lies? You did post these comments.

            1 day ago @ Big Government – Occupy-Linked Hacker G… · 17 replies · -6 points
            "The revolution has begun and your kind will be finding their heads in baskets soon. I hope you still have that smile on your face when that time comes."

            6 hours ago @ Big Government – Occupy-Linked Hacker G… · 0 replies · +1 points
            "Blowing up tyrants like you isn't terrorism, it's freedom fighting."

            And why would I ever discuss sex with someone like you? You need to focus your hands on something you can hang onto.

            7 weeks ago @ Breitbart.tv – #OccupyDenver Comes Ba… · 0 replies · -1 points
            "I use two hands for the bong, then type afterwards.

            It's not like when you wank off while blogging."

          • Looking4Sanity

            You've got yourself one of those Che' tee shirt wearing fringe lunatics on your hands here Rog. I love these Commie B'tards who think that they're going to "start a revolution" in a nation with 212 million gun owners and no popular support. Where I come from, we call that a "turkey shoot".

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            He also prayed to allah, thankful that he's not like me.

            He's a gay muslim closet case that is just so lonely he wants to make sure I'm gay and he stands a chance. Not likely. Not ever, ever.

            And I won't tell him about my love life so he's running around like a suicide bomber without a Jew to blow up.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            You don't have a love life, don't expect Lookingforcock to think you do.

            You refuse to say anything because it's the best chance you have of tricking people into believing you do.

            You're not fooling anybody.

            You have told us all every aspect of your personal life, yet when it comes to saying you have a girlfriend???? ALL OF A SUDDEN you draw the line.

            Homo, get a girlfriend.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You are a very sad individual, giving you credit for that much.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            It's sad because you know I'm right.

            I can help. Stop chance men on the internet 12 hours a day. and get out of the house.

            Go to a church social instead. Talk to a girl, let her know you like her, but DON'T say it. Don't talk too much.

            Ask if she would like to go to dinner.

            Try it. Work on it.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You aren't right. You're just sad.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Remember when you said this about having a girlfriend?

            "……………………………………………….."

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Yes, and I thought at the time I was still saying too much.

            Gentlemen don't kiss and tell. And they certainly don't ask anyone about their personal lives either.

            You are no gentleman, but we knew that already.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            You need to have kissed a girl before you can apply that rule.

            Why are you the only conservative male on all these sites that won't say he has a girlfriend?

            Are you saying all the other conservative males on these sites are not gentleman?

            Anyway the rule applies to telling about the kiss, not telling if you have a girlfriend.

            Homo. Find a better excuse for hiding up your homosexuality.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And how many other conservative males have you targeted as you have me?

            And if anyone had been and still given you personal information – they'd be a fool.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            So you are saying Stephen Brady, Cowboy Logic are fools, I understand. I will tell them.

            You are you only person that has ever been frightened to tell me they have had a relationship with a woman before.

            A gentleman considers it rude to keep his girlfriend a secret. They are usually proud to tell people.

            Although I have met many homos that try to keep their homo activity a secret by refusing to say they have a girlfriend. And you are one of those homos , aren't you?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You are a fool, why would I want to tell you squat? You're not normal.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            You would want to tell me to shut me the f u c k up.

            That is what a man would do.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You would ignore it and then hound me anyhow.

            And you don't know enough about real men to make that call.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I would stop asking you for good. t

            That is a promise.

            Just liked I never ask Stephen Brady or Cowboy Logic about it.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You are a troll, you can't be taken seriously.

            I see how many comments you post and have pulled.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            You don't want to believe it on purpose.

            As thought telling someone they have had a relationship with a woman before in their life is some kind of serious question.

            But I guess for a homo trying to cover up that he is a homo, it IS a serious question.

          • Milhous

            Do you really have nothing better to do than harass Rog all day? Have you considered getting a job or going to school or, dare I say, getting a girlfriend of your own?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I have a girlfriend Roger.

            Why can't you say the same?

          • Kevin Stowell

            My wife won't let me date.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            You just proved to me that you couldn't be Roger.

            Why you defend that runt is still a mystery.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Because you're just a horrible person.

          • Kevin Stowell

            That 'bout sum's it up.

          • patriothere

            You have a different god than the founders of America. Get that straight right away.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You are so bad as a rented mouth for an Iranian cleric.

            We have the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. It's the same creator that the founders referred to in the declaration of indepenence.

            You just don't understand American historical religions.

          • patriothere

            No it's not. George washington and thomas paine were freemasons. Most of the founders were freemason and beleived in a creator much different than yours. Your creator is the same as the muslims. The god of the jews. The god of abraham, ismail, and jacob ( I don't know the arabic name for jacob or abraham).

            The founders beleived in god. But there are many different gods out there. They did NOT share the same god as yours. Get that straight right away. They did not, I repeat NOT share the same god as you. They never did. They fled your stupid evil god. And started their own country and were deeply into the masonic order. Much like the Nazis actually.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Yes, it is.

            You're just a rented mouth for Iranian centric talking points.
            You don't even think facts stand on their own merit.

          • patriothere

            those 212 gun owners need a leader to lead them into the revolution. Those 212 gun owners are not gonna support and defend the constitution. They are gonna start the revolution!

          • Looking4Sanity

            Keep telling yourself that. Whatever gets you off at night.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Remember he's just here to drive us out of the 'temple'.

            6 minutes ago @ Breitbart.com – Protests to greet Ahma… · 1 reply · 0 points
            "I'm like jesus, I'm gonna chase you money changers out of the temple and out of town and of course out of this forum. Me and ohsoquiet and a few other REAL AMERICANS who are being PAID to be here like you Israeli PR men. I'm here to chase you filth out."

            What a cheap paid hack, or as I call him, a 'rented mouth'.

          • Looking4Sanity

            He only wishes he had even a small portion of the authority that Jesus had/has!Looks like we're still here and doing fine, doesn't it?

          • patriothere

            It's not my fault you can't read in context.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            It's not my fault you're clueless.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            None of those comments call for beheadiings or violence.

            Remember when you said this about your girlfriend?…

            "………………………………………………………."

            Why does everyone know everything about your personal life, except that one little thing?

            And why wouldn't a hetrosexual man be afraid to say he has a girlfriend?

            There is no reason for it. Not unless you are a homo or something.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Why would any sane man tell you about his loved ones?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            To shut them up.

            But you don't do that …..why?

            I don't want her name. You are making all this homo drama to distract from the fact you have never had a girlfriend.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            I said 'sane'. You don't understand sanity.
            You won't ever shut up.
            You don't' know how.

            And I won't expose any of my loved ones to your twisted thinking.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            How is tell everyone you have a girlfriend "expose" them???

            Expose them to what????

            You just don't want to be expose as being a homo, but I am doing it right now, and everybody sees it.

            Too bad David couldn't beat the homo out of you.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You are an evil troll, and you won't hear about my personal life here.

            There are websites for that, have you tried http://www.sex4thesick.com?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            What are you exposing your girlfriend to if you tell me you have a girlfriend?????

            Stephen Brady told me he has a wife several times, what is his wife exposed to?

            Nothing!!!!

            Just another BS excuse by a homo.

            The more you refuse to admit you don't have a girlfriend, the more strange it looks to your fellow conservatives.

            I am exposing you as a homo.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            My my, still fixated and lonely?

            Too bad.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            What are you exposing your girlfriend to if you tell me you have a girlfriend?????

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            What are you wanting to expose?

            I don't care, I don't want to know. The facts that question was necessary shows why you're the last one I'd say anything of a personal nature with.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            The answer is NOTHING! But you already know that.

            It's just an excuse to not tell me you have never had a girlfriend.

            And yes, you DO care. You are angry I have exposed you as a homo.

            David should have beat you up more.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            This from a gay muslim stoner.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Me, and everybody else that see you ducking the question.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            It's not really something that deserves an answer.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            No, just a question that a normal non homo would be proud to answer.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And you're anything but normal.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Why are you the only man to be afraid to say he has a girlfriend?

            Homos do that, but not straight men.,

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Why are you so desperate to get information about my sex life?

            What a moron.
            Go back to your basement.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Don't pretend you have a sex life to hide.

            I proved that already.

            No man or gentleman would ever keep his girlfriend a secret to EVERYBODY, while letting everybody know about all other aspects of his life on the internet.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            When I say sex life, do you think of a tired right hand?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            After a hard 8 hour day (everyday) chasing WeeTodd around on the internet, you must be so horney for sex with your girlfriend. Am I right?

            You must really bone her hard.while laughing at how wrong I am about you never having sex with a woman before.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Still having wet dreams about putting heads into baskets?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Did you tell your girlfriend I said that about heads in a basket?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            What kind of lubricanttdoyouusewhenyouusebothhandsonyourbong?

            Whatafreakyouare.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I have a bong AND a girlfriend. You have neither.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger
          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Stop sending me Roger porn. So you are just scare

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Only you would seriously consider it porn.You made my point for me.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            You failed my test. Stop looking at cartoon porn.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You failed at life.And it's not porn to anyone but you types.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            That's Beastality, you porn freak.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            according to islam, it's fine as long as your village doesn't butcher and eat the goat later.

          • Bounsy

            After a similar complaint from another user, I registered yesterday and have been posting with my registered account ever since. I have nothing to hide and have not flip flopped (to my knowledge). Please tell me where I have flip-flopped and I will gladly clarify.

        • Jesusinator

          Judeo-Chriatians morals? Moarlity does not come from religion <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Of course it does.
            This is just another hate filled lie that you try to put out.

            Each society has different morals, all based on the religions that they have.
            And Judeo-Christian morals come from our religious background.

            You really need to sit back at your work terminal and try to get your supervisors to let you get a new set of talking points. These ones you're using now are just not working very well.

          • patriothere

            American society has masonic morals. Enlightened morals. Not judeo-christian morals.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Of course it's judeo Christian morals.

            What would an Iranian muslim know about it?

          • patriothere

            They fled from that=. Muslims have jdueo christian morals. It was jews that gave them their religion.

            American society is masonic on origin. George Washington and most of the signatories of the declaration of independence were freemasons.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            islam is not judeo-christian morals.

            Christians don't stone rape victims.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL20WfuqnJI

            This is a good example of how Christian morals work.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            A muslim troll would think this smear against Christianity should be taken seriously.

            If this song was about islam the muslim cities would go up in flames.
            That's the example of Christianity. We are the religion of peace. Ask Aisha.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            It's true though. Mary can suck all the dick she wants and still be a Virgin according to the Bible.

            It's your own beliefs, this is just a song about it.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            I dont' recall reading that in my Bible.You of course as someone that prays to allah would stone her for being raped.Which religion is the one of peace again?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            It's interesting you don't know anything about the Biblical rules for sex. Shouldn't you have learned that before the first time you had sex?

            Or does that mean you are still a virgin yourself?

            It's proof you have never had a girlfriend.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            It's not even interesting that you pretend you do.You know about praying to allah, and how you're to oppose the unbeliever. And you are trying to do that here.But it just shows how warlike your religion really is.It would demand you to stoop low enough to beg a man to discuss sex with you.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I finally made you admit you have never had sex with a girl. If you have had, you would know the biblical rules for sex.

            It's in the Bible, I learned it in Hebrew School.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You finally made me admit you don't know anything.
            It would be a class in talmudic law.

            And you still won't find out about my personal life.

            Why not admit it keithie, you're a silly, silly monkey.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Ask your bother to tell you what the rules of sex are in the bible and maybe you can try to have sex yourself and even have a sex 'life."

            Hint: you will need to find a woman to agree to have the sex with you. And I won't lie, it's not going to be easy!

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            This from a muslim guy who thinks a goat video is porn?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            It was porn. Cartoon porn, you sick freak.

            Did you look up the biblical rules for sex yet, or have you already figured you'll never have a reason to know them?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            looking at a goat in a cartoon is porn to you?You silly Iranians. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Could you show that cartoon to children?. Is that what you do?

            You would be put in jail in a second you porn freak.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Did I offend you muslim sensitivities?

            Or did it bring back hot moments when you were getting lucky?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Always ducking the questions that prove you are looking at cartoon porn with children.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And you prove you want to think of me and sex in the same sentence.

            Why so fixated on my sex life?
            You are a despicable person and it was only porn to you, what have you done with goats, and why do you bring children into it?

            That's sick, other than for muslims of course.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            It is cartoon porn, and you know you can't let children watch it. So DON'T watch it with them!!!!!

            You don't have a sex life, that is the point. The word sex and roger have no right to be in the same sentence unless you are pointing out that you have never had it.

            You watch cartoon about sex with goats and are sick.

            I really wish you would thank David for me for beating the s h i t out of you so many times. But it's too bad you still turned into a man who is scared of women.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You silly muslims. Did you consider that naked (but fully covered in hair) goat some sort of porn because the muslim guy didn't put the burka on it before it was shown?

            That's the point of the cartoon, that you muslim friendly kind are just weird.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I know the "point" of porn.

            And you can't show that kind of porn to children. Don't do it!!

            You would be put in jail.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Watching goats isn't porn unless you look at them as sex objects.

            You silly muslim you.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            You can tell that to the police if you show that cartoon porn to children you sick freak. You can't show cartoons of naked Arab men to children!!!!

            You're a sick porn peddler!!

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Do all goats do it for you? Just asking….

            Here's more porn for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-cNNP7nUJM

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            That youtube video doesn't show a man's c o c k like the cartoon porn you are watching with children.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You are a sick pervert. And your fixation with me won't get you anywhere.

            Go back to the goats, you don't stand a chance with real men.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            How many children have you shown that cartoon porn with the naked man showing his c o c k?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            this is going to sound far fetchedto an iranian muslim. But we hadmilkgoats when I wasa child. We didn't consider them sex toys.

            We have women.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            What about the man's cartoon c o c k in your vide porn? Did you milk those too?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You just can't stand not being part of my sex life.Life is tough when you're stupid, I bet you know all about that.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Your sex life is joyfully saying wee wee all day long with a dildo coc ck in your a s s.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You are such a proud examples of why islam is a forced style of life.

    • Looking4Sanity

      "This is why the founding fathers made sure that religion be kept out of the nations goverment"

      Nowhere in the Constitution will you find that. Certainly not in the establishment clause you just quoted! We have prayer in Congress. The 10 Commandments displayed in government buildings. "In God We Trust" is immortalized on our currency. Our Founders themselves were deeply religious men.

      Either you are confused about the meaning of "establishment", you mis-spoke yourself, or you are being intentionally deceitful.

      • patriothere

        Separation of church and state. The founders are not to be associated with judeo-christian beliefs because they weren't christian. They were freemasons and they were enlightened individuals. They were liberals. So that means filth like you hate them right? Because they're liberals?

        The founders of my country America, were DEEPLY into the occult.

        • Looking4Sanity

          Separation of church and state is a myth that only exists in your warped terrorist mind. The only thing I hate is stupidity…and from what I'm seeing you got a double dose of that. Go back to your crack pipe and leave politics to the sober adults.

          • patriothere

            It's a myth in your warped mind. How ironic you think separation of church and state isa myth and then you gon saying you hate stupidity.

          • Looking4Sanity

            Show me the phrase “separation of church and state” anywhere in the US Constitution and I'll kiss your smarmy @$$…moron. Get an education!

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You used big words, it may take a while before he gets that translated and the approved talking points ready to use.

  • Lady_Dr

    Crackerjack – AMEN to that. The Constitution is the best guide we can follow for all issues related to non-religious issues. And if we followed it to the letter we would not be in debt, would not have the narcissist-in-chief, and this country would be a lot more successful, and a LOT HAPPIER! (But remember it only guarantees the pursuit, not the end results of that, but everyone would have a choice and that it in itself causes greatere happiness).

    • Amused

      As for crackerjack and Lady_Dr , better go tell that to the religious right which conservatives are pandering to . And LOL….yes the pursuit of happiness , wonderfull notion , dont whine at the end after you get snagged in the trip lines , glass cielings , etc. that "others" are seemingly free to put in your way . Lady_Dr glad you "qualified " that remark .

  • Amused

    Hmmmm…lets see , Joseph Smith finds Golden Tablets in the Northeast US .[ no one's ever seen them The Book of Mormon purports pre-historical "activity " in the US , without a single iota of geographical , historical ,architectural or anthropological proof ….not a hint . As Mormons believe they will all eventaully "morph " in to "godhood " and each man given a planet inhabited by woman for their exclusive pleasure . Jesus and the Devil are brothers .

    Sounds real "rational " to me . LOL…sounds like some heavy duty drugs are involved here . And as for Science , theoretical physics etc . These diciplines END looking back at about +3seconds. Beyond that no one knows a thing .

    • blamb61

      Please be informed.

      The golden plates were seen by several witnesses whose claim is inside the Book.

      There is a lot of historical , architechtural, anthrological proof if you care to look.

      We believe we are the children of God and that we can become heirs with him as stated in the New Testament.

      We don't believe we will each be given a planet inhabited by women for our exclusive pleasure (that is an outright lie). we do believe we can help God with his creations like we did with this world. Genesis states the plural when God went to create the world and we as spirits did have some part of that.

      • blamb61

        Christ said to Mary at the tomb that he was going to His Father and Mary's Father, His God and her God. We call Christ the Son of God because he was. He is part of the Godhead but distinct individual from the Father who was his literal father both spiritually and physically. God created all the spirits. We are called the spirit children of the Father in the Bible. Satan and his followers were also spirit children of God and rebelled and were cast out as stated in the Bible. So yes, that does make the devil, Christ, and us all spiritual brothers and sisters.

        If you really look. LDS theology conforms to the Bible and the Book of Mormon backs it all up.

        • elihu

          You have been thoroughly brainwashed…

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Atheism is, it doesn't allow anyone to see the obvious intelligent design in the world around us.

          • Ricky Michael

            These are not the Droids you're looking for……….(hand waves infront of your face)…………..
            You will convert.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You were turned away from it and attacking it long before I came along.

            You're going to need a better excuse than that.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            So you admit before you just smeared and attacked Christianity for the fun of it.

            Boy, big man!

            You have always been a hate filled bigot and I just made you see it for what it was.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You admit you attacked and smeared my religion for the fun of it, but I'm the hypocrite and the mean one?

            Hahahahahahaha…..

            Oh wee wee, you are the gift that keeps on giving. Does this mean you're going to play mean and pull out some parallel profiles to jump in and defend you now?

            You are lower than the pond scum you are proud to evolve from.

          • patriothere

            Dude, he is a troll. A paid troll.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            As you admitted you are.

            6 minutes ago @ Breitbart.com – Protests to greet Ahma… · 1 reply · 0 points
            I'm like jesus, I'm gonna chase you money changers out of the temple and out of town and of course out of this forum. Me and ohsoquiet and a few other REAL AMERICANS who are being PAID to be here like you Israeli PR men. I'm here to chase you filth out.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            So I have a real job.

            And you? You sit at your work terminal spewing hate day in and day out. But only during business hours with weekends and holidays off.

            So, what government agency do you work for?

      • Juanita

        The golden plates were seen by the witnesses "with their spiritual eyes," and handled only through a cloth, never directly.

        According to Grant Palmer, the Book of Mormon witnesses had a "nineteenth-century magical mindset" rather than "a rationalist perspective." They believed in what was called "second sight. Traditionally, this included the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills and elsewhere."

        A number of the witnesses possessed and used seer stones; Oliver Cowdery was a rodsman. As Tufts University professor John L. Brooke has observed, many of the earliest Mormons were "very much attuned to the supernatural powers of witchcraft."

        "Far removed from our own modern empiricism, the world view of the witnesses is difficult for us to grasp," and thus it is less impressive that "three signatories to the Book of Mormon saw and heard an angel."

        All the witnesses were family, close friends, or financial backers of Joseph Smith. Cowdery, Page, and the five Whitmers were related by marriage. Mark Twain later joked, "I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified."

        Martin Harris was said to have stated that the Eight Witnesses never saw the plates, and "hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it." Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the Book of Mormon even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he "seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience."

        • I Stand

          "Martin Harris was said to have stated…"

          in other words, hearsay.

          Here's what Wikipedia says:

          In March 1838, disillusioned church members said that Harris had publicly denied that any of the Witnesses to the Book of Mormon had ever seen or handled the golden plates—although he had not been present when Whitmer and Cowdery first claimed to have viewed them—and they claimed that Harris's recantation, made during a period of crisis in early Mormonism, induced five influential members, including three Apostles, to leave the Church.[33] Even at the end of his long life, Harris said that he had seen the plates in "a state of entrancement."[34]

          Nevertheless, in 1853, Harris told one David Dille that he had held the forty- to sixty-pound plates on his knee for "an hour-and-a-half" and handled the plates with his hands, "plate after plate."[35]

          Even later, Harris affirmed that he had seen the plates and the angel with his natural eyes: "Gentlemen," holding out his hand, "do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Or are your eyes playing you a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the Angel and the plates."[36]

          The following year Harris affirmed that "No man heard me in any way deny the truth of the Book of Mormon [or] the administration of the angel that showed me the plates."[37][38]

          • Amused

            Yup that loco-weed was growing wild in them days , no doubt more than just horses were eating it .

          • TheKingIsDead

            Locoweed and marijuana aren't the same.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_stramonium

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Your hate filled talking points?

            Lousy source.

      • Amused

        Yea , and I'll bet you've seen them too eh Bambi blamb61 . Gimme a break ! You dont know your own religious dogma .

        • blamb61

          11 witness stated that they hefted the plates. That is in the Book. Tell me what I'm supposed to not know!

          No, I haven't seen the plates. Guess what no one alive today has seen any original manuscripts of the Bible either because they don't exist! You beleive either book because you've read them and the Spirit of God witnesses that they are true!

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

        Found another target?

        So, is this the new religion you're going to hate and smear?
        And what do you have to offer other than your hate and bigotry?

      • blamb61

        When Captain Cook went to the Hawaiian Islands they thought it was a great white God returning. When the Spaniards came to the Americas they thought it was a great white God returning.

        There is some good stuff here also: http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

        Look up Chiasmus – the book of Mormon is full of them. A Hebrew writing style not discovered until just recently that Joseph Smith wouldn't not have known about.

        • Jesusinator

          I would suggest a non-biased web site as evidence for your claims. Joe Smith was a fraud his arrests records prove that. http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon430.htm <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Be honest wee wee. You don't mean 'non biased'.
            You are the most biased person here. You expect to be taken seriously.
            Why not be honest? What you really mean is 'I would suggest you use a hate filled bigoted source that agrees with my twisted and poisoned viewpoint."

            There, fixed that for you.

          • blamb61

            Exactly! Here look at an ex-mormon website for an un-biased opinion. What a joke!

            Also you never addressed some of the evidences that I put forward (JESUSINATOR)

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            He did present antidotal evidence and you are just a hate filled bigot blinded by your own poison.

            You are so biased you can be taken with less credibility than any other biased site you ignore.

            Just a sad and pathetic troll that advocates violence until it's a Christian that might not be guilty of anything.

          • blamb61

            An arrest proves guilt? Never heard of false arrest? Your logic is wanting.

            You never addressed the evidenses I put forward.

            Sorry, but an ex-mormon website would be a very biased website. Again your logic is wanting.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Wee wee, I can show a time you were arrested after a party with booze and drugs.
            You said you didn't deserve it. Do you want me to quote it?

          • blamb61

            I believe Christ was arrested once!

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Of course there is all sorts of evidence.

            And you? You can't prove that evolution happened. By your standards you can't even discuss it since you're biased and not an eye witness.

            Wee wee, you make this way to easy.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          And islam teaches even worse, yet you aren't attacking it.

          Why are you so muslim friendly?

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          In other words, you are so bad at propaganda that you have to use multiple rants to try to reinforce your failed arguments.

          And you still overlook islam which is much worse and actually teaches the things you say you are against. How troll of you.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          Wee wee. You small little man. Lot's of people, lots of Christians don't agree with mormanism.

          But you have to take it further and start attacking and smearing. Do you realize that even if you had a point, nothing you say detracts from Christianity, the following of Christ and His teachings?

        • blamb61

          Christian Churches teach that God has been around forever. Is that logical?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            It is to the Christian churches who read the Bible and accept it.

        • blamb61

          multiple steps to infinity or one big jump to infinity. what is the difference? You and I both have finite minds and there is a lot that we don't understand. That doesn't mean it isn't true. Many conjectures have been proven false.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And Christians believe that they can trust God to handle things larger than ourselves.

            That the reality of the universe is large enough that God is the only one that can understand it in all it's nuances.

            That doesn't mean we should question the existence of God, but celebrate it and trust Him,

        • blamb61

          The Book of Mormon has many references in it for similar doctrines. It references Isaiah in the footnotes. The New Testament references Old Testament scritpure. There is nothing wrong with that. The author (Nephi) of the part of the Book of Mormon your talking about gives credit to Isaiah and claims they are the words of Isaiah and doesn't claim the words are original. Nephi states that the words of Isaiah are important and so include some fo the words of Isaiah that he considsered very important and applicable to their situation.

  • H&R_ Barack

    RE: "Mormons Have Irrational Beliefs? Who Doesn’t?" (Religious Relativism)

    RATHER: The question is "What is Biblical TRUTH"? Dennis.

    Marxist/Hegelian dialectic and religious relativism are one in the same feather, sir.

    One denies the U.S. Constitution the other denies God's Biblical truths.

    BOTH lead to death.

    Romney's religion says that – "Jesus is -a spirit brother of Satan!

    Mormonism in a Nutshell – http://carm.org/mormonism-in-a-nutshell

    Mormonism, also known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, claims Mormonism is "the restoration of the true gospel and a revelation of the true God."

    Find out about LDS "real" teachings of men becoming gods, temples, the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith who claimed to have seen God the Father.

    Many Links: http://carm.org/mormonism

    For him to be born on earth, Brigham Young the second prophet of the Mormon church said that instead of letting any other man do it, God the Father did it with Mary. He said that the birth of our savior was as natural as the birth of our parents. Essentially, what this means is that Brigham Young taught that god the father came down and had relations with Mary, his spirit daughter, to produce the body of Jesus. "

    You uphold the U.S. Constitution. Why (other than religious relativism) – do you deny the Bible?

    Respectfully, do your homework, Dennis, sir.

    • Gladiator

      Right on the money H&R! 2 things that Dennis and Mormonism both agree on is that JESUS CHRIST is not GOD (the Messiah) and that there is no TRIUNE GODHEAD.

      And neither does Islam or Jehovah's Witnesses.

      I pray for Dennis to come to knowing his Messiah one day, even in the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7)

      • H&R_ Barack

        Replying to Gladiator- Be blessed. And thank you. I take some bad hits. I "bumped" you. Sorry for your dings.

        Mormonism, as you know is a pseudo-Christian religion begun in 1830 by Joseph Smith.

        The Bible is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

        God does not change.

        In fact, Jesus warned us about such groups when he said in Matthew 24:24 that in the last days many false Christs and false prophets will arise and deceive many. Mormonism is exactly that, a manifestation of a false prophet: Joseph Smith, who taught all these things.

        Maranatha. (either מרנא תא: maranâ' thâ' or מרן אתא: maran 'athâ' ) – The phrase may have been used as a greeting between Early Christians…….however, it is a plea today!

        register your name and I shall follow your posts.

        κατεργάζομαι !

      • blamb61

        LDS (mormonism) does believe the JESUS CHRIST is the Messiah. Your statement is a lie! I'm LDS and I know what we believe. I don't know what you are except that you lie!

        • H&R_ Barack

          To unregistered "blamb61" (who won't stand behind his or her posts' history) – You are not correct.
          The restaurant where I have tacos employs a busboy named "Jesus". And he has no more power to take you to heaven, than your aberrant, empty, not-Biblical LDS "jesus" from another planet!

          Those who profess to be "Christians" quite often have ideas about Jesus that are just as wrong as those people who are not Christians.

          We are in a time of serious deception, folks. – The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, known as the Mormons, teaches that God the father used to be a man on another planet, that he became a God by following the laws and ordinances of that God on that planet.

          That simply is not Biblical, nor is it "Christian".

          This is not simply an opinion that they are false (or a cult); it is a fact that they teach aberrant and unchristian theology.

          • blamb61

            We believe in the Jesus of the Bible. We don't believe he has the same attributes that you might believe he has or that he has the same history that you think he has, but we definately believe that the Jesus of the Bible is the only way by which we can obtain salvation. So we do believe on the being that other Christians believe in also (we don't believe in your taco man).

            Let me ask you this. Does Christ have a body right now? How many Christian denominations will give you different answers to that. Are some of them not Christians because they don't believe the same as the others?

            We believe in Christ and that he is our Savior.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          The Messiah? Yes, but also that we all who make it to heaven will someday evolve into what He is.

          That's different than what other Christian denominations believe. We believe that Christ as in John 1, is literally part of God and something above all else.

  • A Bible reading Jew

    I am a Jew who believes "…that He gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai." This irrational belief is not a Jewish belief and is NOT what the Torah says. The Bible says God ordered all the Jews to assemble at the foot of Mt Sinai (estimated population of 5 million). The God gave the 10 Commandmends to all and NOT JUST to Moses. The Mt Sinai event reverberated to the entire world. Judaism is the only religion claiming mass witnessing or theophony of the Divine. In all other claimed revelations (such as Islam to Mohamed) there are a single person or a tiny group (the Mormons who saw gold plates) who claimed to get a divine revelation. The mass witnessing of God is what sets Judaism apart from all other religions.

    • Pennswoods

      Where are the tablets God gave Moses? They seemed to have vanished into thin air like the golden tablets the "angel" Moroni gave to Joseph Smith. I agree that the events at Mt Sinai reverberated EVENTUALLY throughout the entire world but why did this not happen before the advent of Christianity? It took these Christian Jews and their gentile converts to spread not only their message but in the process bring knowledge of the Torah to the world. Please show me evidence that the pagan world before Christianity had any knowledge of the teachings of Judaism other than perhaps by a few Greek or Egyptian scholars of the time. Jews before the Christian era were selfish and kept their beliefs to themselves. The Babylonians and others in the ancient Middle East had their own moral codes equal to anything the Jews invented. Animal sacrifice was practiced in the Temple in Jerusalem by the Jews as well as pagans all over the world during that era. After reading the vicious hatred of non Jews by the former Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Ovadia Josef, and other other ultra Orthodox Jews I think I have an idea of the thinking of the ancient Jews which survives today with their successors: intolerance and racial hatred.

      • A Bible reading Jew

        The tablets containing the 10 Commandments were in the Ark of the Covonent. The Ark was either looted/destroyed by the Roman legions who invaded Jerusalem or hidden all too well. The ark was made of gold and may have been melted down. The Torah describes King (world ruler) Nimrod, General Phicol and other Kings' encounters with Abraham Hairvi, (the first Hebrew), and Abraham's teachings of monotheism as well as his trying to spare the residents of Sodom and Amora (Gemora) . Same with Noah and pleading to others to act morallyJoseph and Moses had many encouters with Pharoa of Egypt. Joseph's storing of grain relieved famine in the entire region. Entire sections of the Torah deal with non Jewish encounters with the God of israel and Jews including that of the Jethro, Prince of Midian, Gentile Prophet Bilaam, King Balak, etc. Please read The Living Torah English translation and compare it with the King James Version. Not everything attributed to Ovadia Joseph is accurate!

  • A bible reading Jew

    The mass witnessing of the Exodus from Egypt with the 10 plagues and splitting of the sea are examples of mass impact of Divine intervention.

    The mass theophany at Mount Sinai is related in calm, simple language in Exodus xix. 16-25. God's manifestation is accompanied by sensory grandeur including thunder and lightning; there is a fiery flame, reaching to the sky; the loud notes of a trumpet ; the whole mountain smokes and quakes. From the flame and the cloud a voice reveals the Ten Commandments. The account in Deuteronomy. iv. 11, 12, 33, 36 and v. 4, 19 is practically the same; and in its guarded language it strongly emphasizes the incorporeal nature of God.

    The question to ask about religious inspiration is: do Presidential candidate's belief systems contribute positively to society (clearly yes for Mormons) or the opposite (by viewing as Peaceful Activity Rev Wright's rants of hate and Islamic suicide bombings and other primitive violent barbarian behavior) or are you not sure who deserves your vote?

  • Duwayne Anderson

    "Mormons Have Irrational Beliefs? Who Doesn’t?"

    Practicing scientists. That's who.

    Next question: Are all irrational beliefs equal? Are some irrational beliefs less rational than others? If other folks have irrational beliefs, does that justify yours? If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?

    • A. Keen Observer

      please view the video of Melanie Philips (Wed. Morning Club). She cites quite a number of scientists with irrational beliefs. The whole group of "global warming nuts" are irrational scientists whose views have been disproved by other scientists.

      • Amused

        Oh you are a "keen observer " . Less than 4% of all accredited scientists on the planet are the ones you claim "disprove " global warming . But you should you a better word , because those very few have DISPROVED nothing , but they do "disapprove" . Stay on the cutrting edge of science "observer " .

  • A bible reading Jew

    Dennis, Please brush up on your knowledge of Judaism. Like your mistake that the 10 Commandments revealed by God to all Jews alive at that time (and not just Moses) noted above, you have yet another mistake. "Just to cite one: Orthodox Jews believe that they are not permitted to drink wine or grape juice poured by a non-Jew." Orthodox Jews may drink wine and grape juice poured by non Jews as long as the wine or grape Jews was mevushal (a heat treatment = religious cooked status performed prior to bottling). The concept of mevushal may be irrational but Jews believe God created man and not the other way around!

    Dennis, you are a great guy. Please spend more time consulting with your favorite Orthodox rabbis and brush up on what the Torah and halacha (Jewish religious law) actually is.

  • H&R_ Barack

    RE: Question: "Mormons Have Irrational Beliefs? Who Doesn’t?"

    Mormonism, also known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is a cult! LDS is not "Christian".

    Adding to the insult: Mormonism claims to be the restoration of the true gospel and a revelation of the true God.

    The Mormon/LDS are more than a "little odd". They are bazaar.

    Is Mormonism a cult? http://carm.org/is-mormonism-cult

    A Quick Look at the Book of Mormon
    : http://carm.org/quick-look-at-book-of-mormon

    Find out about its teachings of men becoming gods, temples, the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith who claimed to have seen God the Father.

    Introduction (from Mormon sources!) – http://carm.org/mormonism

    •If all Mormons are Christians, then all why arn't ALL "Christians" Mormons? h-m-m-m-m-m?

    • Carl

      "If all Mormons are Christians, then all why arn't ALL "Christians" Mormons? h-m-m-m-m-m?"

      I'm not sure why this would be unclear, but let's look at the structure of your statement:
      If all ___A___ are ___B___, then why aren't all ___B___ ___A___?

      You have A=Mormons and B=Christians. Try any of these combinations (A is before slash, B is after) and see why your question doesn't make sense.

      A/B
      boys/humans
      cats/animals
      circles/shapes
      threes/numbers

      One complete example (with the blanks filled in):
      If all Bibles are books, then why aren't all books Bibles?

      The term "Christian" is very broad and encompasses many religions and sects. The term "Mormon" is more narrow and covers a subset of those covered by the general term "Christian."

      • H&R_ Barack

        Replying to Carl =
        You are a drive-by editor with no history and no cache. You are an insincere poster who refuses to stand behind your comments.

        Demonstrate your integrity by registering your name so we can read your comment history.

        Mormonism is not Christian. Period!
        The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity.

        Moreover, "Carl" – Mormonism denies the biblical truth of who God is, who Jesus is, how forgiveness of sins is attained, and what the gospel is, the Mormon is not Christian — in spite of all his claims that he is Christian.

        Quite simply, Carl,……….the Mormon god doesn't exist.

        Mormonism is not Christian because it denies that there is only one God,
        ~Mormonism denies the true Gospel,
        ~ Mormonism adds works to salvation,
        ~Mormonism denies that Jesus is the uncreated creator, and
        ~Mormonism distorts the biblical teaching of the atonement, and
        ~Mormonism ALSO undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible.

        Questions?

        • Bounsy

          If a site allows for anonymous comments, then there is no sin in posting anonymously. Having never visited this site before, I obviously have no comment history on this site. Regardless, your original question remains invalid.

          Are Mormons (or any other religion) Christian is a loaded question. In order to answer it properly, you need to define what you mean by "Christian." Check a dictionary. Dictionary.com (for example) has several definitions of the term "Christian." There is only one definition that contains any mention of specific denominations. Most of the definitions refer to people, ideas, groups, etc. that are based on the teachings of Christ. Since those teachings are subject to interpretation (e.g. Catholic vs. Protestant), no one religion or religious group has any right to monopolize the term. Anyone who can claim that they believe in Christ or seek to follow His teachings can validly be called a Christian.

          • H&R_ Barack

            Replying to Bounsy (quote) "If a site allows for anonymous comments,"
            The point is that you (with two comments) are unreliable and have no credibility in this participation. While you may read my comments for context and my positions, we are denied that opportunity for you. You are a nameless, empty suit. A drive-by poster with no accountability. Capish?

            RE: "Are Mormons (or any other religion) Christian is a loaded question."

            That is not correct. Mormons are not Christians. (see above)

          • Bounsy

            I have created an account and continued my interactions in order to satisfy your reservations about my reliability. I agree that such reservations are reasonable, so I will do all future comments logged in.

          • H&R_ Barack

            Bouncy. You sound sincere. I am not here to win an hollow argument. I haven't the benefit of knowing what your religion is by way of your past because you have no past.

            We are in a time of serious deception. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, known as the Mormons, teaches that God the father used to be a man on another planet, that he became a God by following the laws and ordinances of that God on that planet. That simply is not Biblical, nor is it "Christian".

            This is not simply an opinion that they are false; it is a fact that they teach abberant and unchristian theology.

          • H&R_ Barack

            May I also say to you, Bouncy that Biblical Christians will state their theology UP FRONT. Mitt Romney shrouds his religion in carefully crafted phrases.

            Evangelical (Biblical) Christians are of a particular fabric that states: "This is my faith based on (specific) Biblical TRUTH and you may take it, or, you may leave it; It remains the Biblical TRUTH."

            Mormonism is a pseudo-Christian religion begun in 1830 by Joseph Smith.

            The Bible is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

            God does not change. In fact, Jesus warned us about such groups when he said in Matthew 24:24 that in the last days many false Christs and false prophets will arise and deceive many. Mormonism is exactly that, a manifestation of a false prophet: Joseph Smith, who taught all these things.

          • Bounsy

            Honestly, I kind of wish that Mitt Romney was more up front about his religion. I don't want him trying to convert everyone. That would be an abuse of his position. However, I don't think there's any reason to not be open about his religion.

            On the other side of the coin, however, I don't see an actual need for him to be more open. He's trying to become president (a secular, government position), not the leader of any religious organization. Whether he believes in God, Allah, the tooth fairy, or none of the above should neither qualify nor disqualify him for the position.

            If you wish to believe that Joseph Smith and others are false prophets, you are free to do so. That is your right. However, consider the fruits of their labors: modern revelations from God, restoration of lost practices (i.e., baptism for the dead: 1 Corinthians 15:29), countless hours of community service given by members of the church, an unpaid/volunteer clergy (which removes any financial incentive to being involved with the church), etc. By their fruits shall ye know them.

          • H&R_ Barack

            Posting…Replying to Bounsy – "I don't see an actual need for him to be more open. He's trying to become president (a secular, government position), not the leader of any religious organization. Whether he believes in God, Allah, the tooth fairy, or none of the above should neither qualify nor disqualify him for the position. "

            It DOES matter because unlike President Bush, Romney prays to a different god.

            ~Q: Would you care if Romney was a Satanist, Muslim, or he was Wiccan?

            I bet you did you know that The LDS church is making a concerted effort to dominate the Internet search engines? I bet you are not one of the participants in that effort. (big laugh!)

            As the LDS Church knows, there is a lot of critical material out there. So, Mormons, like YOU are being urged to write as much as they can on the Internet so that terms such as LDS, Mormon, Mormonism, Joseph Smith, etc. when searched on, will list websites favorable to Mormonism.

            In other words, they're trying to flood the Internet with pro-Mormon information. Of course, the problem with this is that the truth will not be told.

          • Bounsy

            I post on topics of personal interest to me regardless of any encouragement I may receive. The church has encouraged members to actively participate online. This does not restrict the efforts of those who oppose the church. In the end, both sides have their say.

            As to your question about Romney if he was not Christian: I would have no problem voting for a Muslim or Atheist who shared my political outlook. I vote based on political stances, not religious ones. I will most likely vote for Romney, but not because of his religion.

            I strongly believe that any Mormon who votes for Romney just because he is a Mormon is voting for the wrong reason. Likewise for any who refuse to vote for him because he is a Mormon.

            If Harry Reid (Democrat and Mormon) were running as the Democratic candidate, I would still not be likely to vote for him.

          • Bounsy

            To maintain that Mormons are not Christians requires a more specific, formal definition. In terms of formal definitions, there are many divisions of Christianity (e.g., Protestant vs. Catholic, Trinitarian vs. non-Trinitarian, etc.). Various religions might belong to one or more of these formally-defined segments. Which specific segment(s) of Christianity are you claiming is(are) the only true definition of Christianity? Which ones are not?

          • H&R_ Barack

            Replying to Bounsy (quote) – "To maintain that Mormons are not Christians requires a more specific, formal definition." Kindly READ the links for content & context.

            Your flea is coughing MS Bounsy. State your religious position. Let's be honest.
            (and I did not ding your post. – ……SEE? another feature of getting REAL)

          • H&R_ Barack

            Do you know your doctrine?

            Replying to Bounsy's (QUOTE) "To maintain that Mormons are not Christians requires a more specific, formal definition."

            Do you know the difference between LDS and Biblical Christianity?

            If you are interested, you can take a little theological test..
            http://carm.org/theological-test

            HINT: Mormonism fails ALL of the first questions, right out of the box.

          • Bounsy

            Thank you for providing the specific link. Now that I know how you define the term "Christian," I can better discuss the details.

            According to this website's test, Mormons are not Christians. I agree.

            However, I do not believe that the test is based on Biblical facts.

            Q1: Jesus stated "Ye are gods" (John 10:34). The name Elohim is plural (based on the Hebrew -im ending), implying the existence of more than one. God also declared that Adam "is become as one of us" (Genesis 3:22). So there are indications that there are multiple gods. However, as the 10 commandments makes clear, we only worship one God. No other gods are to be worshiped. So the existence of more than one god does not change who God is to us.

          • Bounsy

            Q2: At the baptism of Jesus, God (the Father) proclaimed "This is my beloved son" (Matthew 3:17) while the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove. Thus, they are distinct beings. It is also clear that the Father and Son are distinct when John states that "the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22). Since one being can not both judge no man yet judge everyone, the two must be distinct. This supports the non-trinitarian view and undermines the trinitarian view supported by the test on this web site.

          • Bounsy

            Q3: Jesus is the Son of God, and hence also a god. He is not God the Father in the flesh, but He is still a god, as declared in scripture.

            Q4: Agreed. Jesus needed to inherit the power to die from the mortal mother of His physical body, but also needed to inherit the power to overcome death from the immortal father of His physical body. Thus He had to have two sides to his nature.

            Q5: Agreed that the Holy Ghost is not a force, but an actual being. He is distinct from God or Jesus, but works with them very closely.

            Q6-Q8: I see no specific disagreement with the explanations given.

          • Bounsy

            I could go on with the rest of the questions, but I see some that we agree on and some that we don't. You can back up your claims using the Bible. I can also back up my claims using the Bible. This is why so many sects exist in the first place. The Bible has been interpreted many different ways. This is nothing new. You are free to believe your interpretation and I am free to believe mine.

            However, since the interpretation is not absolute, I do not have the right to say that any sect claiming and striving to follow Christ is not Christian (used the term in the common, broad way that dictionaries describe). Likewise, no one else has that right to say that I am not a Christian when I earnestly seek to follow Him.

            The only claim that I or anyone else can make is that someone does not follow one particular type of Christianity or another.

          • H&R_ Barack

            Replying to Bounsy – RE: "no one religion or religious group has any right to monopolize the term. Anyone who can claim that they believe in Christ or seek to follow His teachings can validly be called a Christian. "

            Words like "Christain" have a specific meaning.
            Please understand that the Mormon Church uses Christian terms but has radically changed the meanings of those terms. So, when they say that Mormons belief in the father the son and the Holy Spirit, they are really saying they believe in a God from another planet, with a goddess wife, who literally is the father of Jesus, and that there is a spirit being, the Holy Ghost, who is another God. It does not matter what your "dictionary" says.

            This might help: Mormon Beliefs, are they Christian? http://carm.org/mormon-beliefs

            Mormonism, also known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, claims to be the restoration of the true gospel and a revelation of the true God.

            Find out about its teachings of men becoming gods, temples, the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith who claimed to have seen God the Father.

            Mormonism in a Nutshell: http://carm.org/mormonism-in-a-nutshell

          • Bounsy

            I've looked at that site already. It is very good at cherry-picking scripture to support its claims while ignoring scripture that refutes its claims.

            You have refused to accept the dictionary definition. It should be noted that dictionaries do not (for the most part) dictate the definition of any word. They primarily document the way it has been used in the real world. Thus, those definitions are the definitions that are in use. Simply disregarding them requires you to be much more specific in what you mean when you use the term "Christian," since the hearer can no longer reference a dictionary to know what you are talking about.

            Your summary of the Mormon view of the Trinity is not too far off. Here's another way of phrasing what you wrote:
            Mormons believe that God is a physical being. This implies that He must live somewhere. As He doesn't seem to live on this planet, He must live elsewhere. If Heaven has any ground to walk upon, it is essentially another planet. God is the Father of Jesus Christ's spirit and body. Having a Father means that there is also a mother, so having a Mother in Heaven makes sense. The Holy Ghost acts as a messenger of sorts (though that is a gross simplification of His role). Together, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost work together as one, but not in one body.

            Jesus, Himself, made this relationship clear. When praying to the Father about His disciples, He asked "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" (John 17:21). First off, if Jesus and God were the same being, why would He pray to Himself? Secondly, unless He was asking the Father to merge all of His disciples into a single being, he must have meant "be one" in a different way, as He directly states that He wants them to be one in the exact same way that He and the Father are one.

          • H&R_ Barack

            "You have refused to accept the dictionary definition."

            That is because the BIBLE is my truth, not man's dictionary. (I have to laugh at you).

            I don't need a dictionary that was written almost 2000 years after Jesus' word was recorded to tell me what Webster thinks Jesus said 2000 years ago..

          • H&R_ Barack

            Posting…Replying to Bounsy

            Thank you for registering. You did not read my links. Did you?

            Did you know that The LDS church is making a concerted effort to dominate the Internet search engines?

            As the LDS Church knows, there is a lot of critical material out there. So, Mormon missionaries, Mormon colleges, Mormon blogs, etc. are being urged to write as much as they can on the Internet so that terms such as LDS, Mormon, Mormonism, Joseph Smith, etc. when searched on, will list websites favorable to Mormonism. In other words, they're trying to flood the Internet with pro-Mormon information.

            Of course, the problem with this is that the truth will not be told.

            Are you a LDS poster? OR, do you work for your LDS church?

          • Bounsy

            You have asked to know more about me, so here goes:

            I am a completely independent LDS poster. I do not work for the LDS church. I am active in my local congregation and enjoy learning about and discussing all religions, both ancient and modern. I do seek to clarify where I perceive my beliefs as being misinterpreted or misrepresented and would do so even without church encouragement (which hasn't changed my behavior).

            I hold as one of my most basic beliefs the idea that everyone is free to choose what they believe and why they believe it. I try to be respectful towards others' beliefs even if I completely disagree with them. I dislike any intentional disrespect toward any religion and seek peaceful discussions rather than hateful arguments.

            Are there any other details that you are particularly interested in? I do not wish to come across as hiding any agenda or keeping secrets.

          • H&R_ Barack

            Do you know your doctrine? If you are interested, you can take a little theological test..
            http://carm.org/theological-test

            Mormonism fails the first three questions, right out of the box.

          • H&R_ Barack

            Bounsy: Are Mormons (or any other religion) Christian is a loaded question. In order to answer it properly, you need to define what you mean by "Christian." Check a dictionary.

            There is only ONE Christian Doctrine. It is specific.

            Do you know your doctrine?

            Do you know the difference between LDS and Biblical Christianity?

            If you are interested, you can take a little theological test..
            http://carm.org/theological-test

            Mormonism fails ALL of the first questions, right out of the box.

        • Bounsy

          When most people assert that Mormons are not Christians, what they often really mean is that Mormons are not Creedal Christians. This is true. Mormons do not believe in the extra-biblical creeds such as the Nicene Creed.

          Mormons do believe in the Bible, but interpret some parts differently from some other religions.

          For example, Mormons maintain that some works (such as baptism) are essential to salvation. The Bible confirms this: "…except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) Thus, to claim that faith alone is sufficient to salvation is to deny Christ's teachings in the Bible. "…can faith save him? … faith, if it hath not works, is dead … by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:14,17,24)

          Does this in any way mean that a man can "earn" his way to heaven? No. All are fallen and unworthy of salvation no matter how many good things they do even if they had eternity to do them. Without Jesus Christ, all would be forever lost. His grace alone makes salvation possible. However, it is through our works that we show our willingness to follow Him. Those that follow Him (another work) are of His fold. Those of His fold will be saved.

          • H&R_ Barack

            RE: "When most people assert that Mormons are not Christians, what they often really mean is that Mormons are not Creedal Christians. This is true. Mormons do not believe in the extra-biblical creeds such as the Nicene Creed. "

            Mormons are not Christians because they deny Essential Christian Doctrine.

            It has absolutely nothing to do with standardization of the Roman Missals, Ecumenical Councils at small towns in the outskirts of the Austrian Tyrol, or, the Nicene Creed of 325.

            You are all over the map. Basic Christian Doctrine is the study of the revealed word of God. It is Christian Theology regarding the nature truth, God, Jesus, salvation, damnation, the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, the Gospel, resurrection, and more.

            NOT The Book of MORMON!

            "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,"
            (2 Tim. 4:3).

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And your muslim friendly intolerance is showing.

            So, are you sitting at your work terminal with that little flask half empty… trying to come up with more hate filled comments to meet your daily quota?

          • H&R_ Barack

            Do you know your doctrine?

            Do you know the difference between LDS and Biblical Christianity?

            If you are interested, you can take a little theological test..
            http://carm.org/theological-test

            Mormonism fails ALL of the first questions, right out of the box.

        • Milhous

          I think you probably meant "cachet." A cache is a hiding place or a part of a computer memory.

      • Bounsy

        I fail to see how registering has anything to do with your question, but now I'm registered. Your question still doesn't make sense.

        You claim that I have "High & Mighty ethics," but I was merely pointing out an argument that does not work. On the other hand, you have posted links to a site that has a strong focus on demeaning and/or tearing down the beliefs of other religions while simultaneously claiming the moral high road.

        Name calling doesn't help your case. It only makes it more difficult to take anything you say too seriously.

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

      You, the troll who won't even admit to what muslim friendly thinking you have want to start talking about cults?

      There is one hugely powerful cult murdering people all around the world because it's teachings demand it, and you seem to have the same values time after time.

      What a hate filled bigot you are.

    • Milhous

      I think you probably meant "bizarre." A bazaar is a market.

  • Argyraspide

    Contrary to what a lot of people of faith like to espouse, religion is not at all about reason. It is about belonging. It is about shared longings. It is about feeling good about oneself and one's fellows. It can be about the feeling of superiority over all infidels, while being the dirtiest, poorest and least educated goat-herder in the land. It is having the answers to the great mysteries, with the freedom from agonizing doubt that can come from it. Religious faith comes from a deep psychological need that constantly builds impregnable walls around itself for fear reason may penetrate and threaten what is cherished.

    • Amused

      you're right , that is EXACTLY what RELIGION is . Now faith in the ONE GOD of the Universe , that's supernatural . Faith does not seek the acceptance or approval of one's fellows and it resides alone in the souls of believers . Faith is intrinsic in all humans , faith is not irrational it is perfectly rational . It can not be destroyed , but it can be rejected . Faith does not depend on the dogma and tenets of religion , which lead to irrationality and irrational behavior . There are no true atheists . Atheism is illogical and all who call themselves atheist know it . Atheism is a reaction to religion , although no "atheist " will ever admit it . The greater the reaction , the more bitter the atheist , such as Madylin Murray O'Hare .Atheists hide their faith for fear of appearing to be like those in religion which they reject .

  • Steve Chavez

    Mormon terrorists, jihadists, and suicide bombers are spreading their hate around the world. Their Sharia type law enslaves their women who have to wear hijabs to hide every part of their body.

    While Mormons have banned the practice of having more than one wife, Islam permits multiple wives and even their Great Mohammad married a young child of seven years old so I request that Mormons go back to their past practices to be accepted in the world especially by Romney haters, Democrats, and Obama!

    • A. Keen Observer

      Name one Mormon terrorist.

      • H&R_ Barack

        YOU! Register your name and own your comments!

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          He didn't say he was a terrorist.

          You just started drinking from that little flask too early today.

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

        Karl Marx

  • http://www.rmarkmusser.com Mark Musser

    Equating the mystical irrationality of Mormonism with the miraculous history of the Bible displays a very shallow understanding of both Judaim and Christianity. The deeper one digs into Mormonism, the more troubling and increasinly indefensible it becomes. Mormon apologists are also really hard to come by, and what little Mormon apologetics does exist is geared for Mormon converts rather than for public discussions. Dennis is obviously concerned about the upcoming election and is well aware that Mormon irrationality is potentially a real threat in the upcoming election. While I will be voting for Romney, this is something that our Republican Party elites should have considered far more seriously than they did. However, instead of looking at the great problems that exist between Christianity and Mormonism, they made fun of Rick Santorum's Catholicism instead. This still has the potential of haunting the upcoming election if more and more people start talking about Mormonism.

    • Observer of truth

      Actually, the deeper one digs into Mormonism, the more beautiful, logical and elegant the religion becomes. Just their view on the afterlife is amazing, especially when using 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 and 2 Peter to defend their beliefs. it is utterly remarkable that LDS Theology teaches such basic principles such as Heaven comes after the Judgement, not directly after death, or that the resurrection of man (and Christ) is a very literal thing. I have yet to find a religion with such detail that is well supported by the Bible.

    • Argyraspide

      "Mystical" and "miraculous" equate to superstition: a willing acceptance of the unreal that suits a person of faith's deepest psychological needs. The Pope chanting a mass in all his golden finery is no different in my opinion than a Zulu witch doctor shaking a goat-bladder rattle while mumbling prayers to Unkulunkulu. The deeper one digs into the willing-dispensation-with-reality that is religious faith, "the more increasingly indefensible it becomes"…unless one understands that the person of faith needs and cherishes the beliefs because he/she just cannot cope with life and reality just as it truly is. Such people need and demand the certainty that only faith can provide. Lies are lies, even when made to oneself – which can be the worst of all.

      • http://www.rmarkmusser.com Mark Musser

        A short reponse to this is impossible, but please look at this posting to hopefully help change your mind – http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2011/05/moder….

        • Argyraspide

          The entire body of your work is designed to shore up the defenses in your mind that preserve your cherished state of being – certainty that you are right. Black and white is all that can exist for the true believer. No room at all for grey. You are an intelligent man who must continuously slap mortar on the bricks that make up the foundation of your cherished notions; because deep down you cannot help but doubt. Don't deny it. You live in fear of the truth that can only be found in the reality you steadfastly hold at arm's length, lest it test you and find you wanting; a state of being you cannot tolerate. You steadfastly deny what is as plain as the nose on your face, because you are become a prisoner of the lies that support your needs. Truth has no place in your life. You accept fantasy to be truth, simply because it suits you. You are of the majority of mankind, although you believe in all your heart to be of the anointed few who truly grasp the truth, such as you see it to be. I know your kind well.

  • olustee

    Most of the above comments I can pass over. "Explaining" why the "irrational" beliefs of Religion X (all are "irrational": if "rational" they wouldn't be religions but science or something similar) affect a president is beside the point. Unless, of course, you want to say that you will vote for a person whose religious beliefs will determine his political practices. In that case, you are already espousing the notion of "there are irrationalities I will accept, and irrationalities I won't accept." But that's what democratic elections are all about: what majority wants a specific candidate with which mix of personal and public positions. The side whose candidate loses is always the side that says that the winner's set of irrationalities are unacceptable. The losers in the Wisconsin recall election object to a governor who doesn't espouse the irrationalities of union goons. That's because union goons want their bag of irrationalities to prevail. And it makes them so mad when their irrationalities don't prevail. But hunting for a candidate who has no irrational beliefs–forget it.

    • Amused

      Oh you deserve a gold star on your forehead man !

      " The side whose candidate loses is always the side that says that the winner's set of irrationalities are unacceptable…"

      LOLOL…..that's precisely what Republicans have been doing since they lost in '08 . And we'll even give you a "touche " …..union busters who dont espouse the "irrationalities " of unionism and use perjorativs like "goons ".

  • A. Keen Observer

    What Mormon terrorists are you talking about? Are you nuts?

  • lsatenstein

    I accept the writings of Denis, as his opinions. Some of his ideas are verifiable, others are not.
    I also am thinking that Marxism was write. Following Capitalism comes socialism. Let me just say this "In the USA today, democracy is dead!". It is dead because, contrary to what the population at large wants, it is not what corporations and their lobbyists want. The corps pay for reelections, and buy their laws. That is how I see it.
    Democracy could return if electioneering laws limited funding to a maximum amount per human tax payer. Does anyone see that happening in the next 20 years?

  • A. Keen Observer

    Anti-Mormonism is just as bad as anti-Semitism or anti-Christianity. I admire the Mormons and I will proudly and happily vote for Romney!

    • H&R_ Barack

      YOU are ANTI-Accountable.

      You are an unregistered (likely paid) drive-by Mormon empty suit.

      You dot the threads with various drive-by names and without any accountability.

      No caffeine. No character. No ETHICS. So Mormon!

  • Amused

    Mormonism is a CULT . Albeit harmless ,. nonetheless a cult . They're just dumb not dangerous , lol…..and your next President could be one .

    • Banastre tarleton

      True enough , but because they are a relatively recent creation , they can be studied in detail as an example of how all religions begin and evolve
      I know many Mormon folk and they are trustworthy and reliable

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

      Even the one you always seem to agree with?
      You know, the one you always ignore when you're ripping on religion in general?

      You are so hate filled. You set the standard that biased sources have to be tossed, that's the reason you won't take the Bible seriously. So, you can't really comment on religion with all your biases.

      Hoisted by your own petard.

      • Banastre tarleton

        that's right , anyone who disagrees with your religion is HATE FILLED …''thou shalt not suffer a witch to live ''

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          And you're still the fool that can't connect that to the teachings of Christ.

    • blamb61

      I bet Romney is a lot smarter than you and he is a Mormon!

  • Banastre tarleton

    Religious fundamentalism is some type of psychosis of the mind that holds the human mind in a vice-like grip …without science we would still be living in a demon haunted world , burning witches and heretics at the stake …Islam is just the most medieval and primitive example

    • http://www.rmarkmusser.com Mark Musser

      Do you mean like the social science of Karl Marx? Or perhaps the biological science of eugenics with German Social Darwinist Ernst Haeckel leading the charge up the Aryan hill? How about the psychological sciences which have made people basically irresponsible. Or better yet, the science behind global warming today? The social, psychological, biological, and ecological sciences have done untold damage on human beings throughout the 20th century and have actually been worse than even radical Jihad has ever dreamed of. The 20th century was scientific socialistic slaughterhouse dealing with tens of millions of people, all of which was allegedly based on lastest evolutionary sciences of the day.

    • H&R_ Barack

      You are an unregistered (likely paid) drive-by Mormon empty suit.

      You dot the threads with various drive-by names and without any accountability.

      No caffeine. No character. No ETHICS. So Mormon!

  • Richard G.

    I think to takes a lot of chutzpah for the author who is steeped in traditional Jewish learning to try to
    whitewash a religion whose prime directive is to transform men into gods! What could be more anti-
    thetical to Judaism than that?

    And what of the Mormon Church's pernicious racial theories that stigmatize blacks and native Americans.
    The Mormon Church's 1978 decision to allow blacks into its priesthood was hardly more than a cosmetic
    change to its underlying racial doctrines that are every bit as evil as the Black Liberation theology based
    racism adhered to by Obama's spiritual mentor, Jeremiah Wright.

  • Amused

    The Book of Mormon is a FRAUD , just as is the Koran . The FACT , that all historical and geographical claims of "biblical activity" took place in the pre US America , have been utterly and totally DEBUNKED . We're not talking about a "Bible " here , where archaeology , anthropology , and a multitude of sources both religious and secular have confirmed the existence of concurring FACTS regarding places , peoples , even individuals mentioned in the Bible . Mormons in general are irrational , in that in the face of such established facts running directly counter to the contents of their Bible and it's"veracity "proven false , still hold to such foolishness . No less irrational than muslims claiming Adam and Eve , Moses and Abraham to have been "muslim " .

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

      You are such a hate filled bigot, have I mentioned that?

      Just because the Bible wasn't written as a geographical study, it has a lot of documented history in it.

      Even if you don't' want to admit it.

      And if Pilot acknowledges Jesus as Christ. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.p

      • Banastre tarleton

        Why is he a hate filled bigot ? ..because he is a skeptic of your religious beliefs …I can well understand how you nutters could burn heretics

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

          He's a hate filled bigot because he wants to be.
          And when anyone ignores history to spread agenda driven talking points against any person or group, they are a bigot.

        • Looking4Sanity

          Let us know when you learn the difference between a "skeptic" and an "enemy" there, pal. Or is it just that the difference doesn't fit with your lying meme?

    • Amused

      Well the writings of Josephus , describe the person called Jesus . Archaeological artifacts confirm his group of original believers . TROY was eventuially discovered . Nothing , NO NOTHING ,alluding to any activity in N.America that the Mormons purport to have occurred has been confirmed in any small or large way .There is not one iota of anthropolgic or archaeologic evidence that's supports ANY locations in the Book of Mormon .While the historicity of the Bible has been confirmed in literal thousands of instances . The Greeks incorporated their mythological system in much of their writing , and of course can be taken with a grain of salt , so too Dragons and Merlin , however there is archaeological evidence ,whereas the spiritual is left to the reader . Mormonism is devoid of ANY such evidence . because there is none .

      • Amused

        If the Bible spoke of a people called Hebrews or the Jews and absoliutely no evidence was found that they ever existed in the regions mentioned , then it can be relegated to the same category as the Book of Mormon…A FRAUD .

  • tagalog

    Mainstream Christians believe in monotheism and at the same time believe in the Holy Trinity. Early Christians believed that seven Christians, during the period of persecution by the Roman emperor Decius, were walled up in a cave near the city of Ephesus (famed for its worship of the pagan god Artemis), were put to sleep by God, and slept for two hundred years, to awake to a Christian Ephesus.

    Christians have yet to come up with a final persuasive bit of doctrine about whether or not Christ existed conterminous with God, and the relationship of both to the Holy Spirit is also a bit vague. Also, Christians haven't yet figured out completely how to evaluate the divine and the human natures of Jesus. In the last couple of centuries, Christians have "resolved" these issues largely by ignoring them, but that doesn't make them go away.

    Christians believed that being eaten by lions, roasted in red-hot iron chairs, and other similiar horrific deaths would earn them salvation because such deaths for their religion would be a witness to the persecution of Christ and an imitation of the Passion of the Christ. The Romans thought they were nuts and a bit weird for thinking about torture like that. The Christians thought they were martyrs. We Christians still believe that. Well, unless we're Protestants, in which case we believe that salvation is purely an exercise of God's grace and has nothing to do with human sacrifices or good works.

    For their own part, pagans believed that Christians were cannibals because they claimed to eat the body and drink the blood of Christ in the sacrament of Communion. Christians believe that ordinary bread and wine (or grape juice) are transformed into the true body and blood of Christ to this day. That belief is central to the day-to-day living of Chrisitianity regardless of sect.

    Christians believed, and some still do, that Jews kidnap Christian children in order to bleed them and mix their blood into kosher food. That belief is so common that it's known as the Blood Libel.

    Christians believe that New Testament scriptures are not authentic unless they were written by people who were eyewitnesses to the events they wrote about; however, two of the first four Gospels of the New Testament were written by people who never knew Christ. The Jewish scholars believe this too, about Jewish religious writings, but the Torah is so ancient that no one knows for certain where the writings of the Torah come from. Jews and Christians believe that Abraham was a real person, but recent scholarship suggests that he may not have been.

    In our non-religious life, we believe that "children don't lie" about child sexual abuse, and we have put people in prison for long terms on the basis of that belief. And then we laugh about people believing in trial by combat and the belief that God will stay the hand of the wicked.

    Some people who appear on TV believe that wearing a lapel pin of the American flag is somehow a bad thing that reflects adversely on them and they say so without a moment of embarassment. Some people believe that any criticism of our current President is racist.

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

      As if you would know a good comment it if fell and knocked your flask over.

    • Ricky Michael

      There seems to be a problem with your logic. Would someone really go to their death for something that was a lie? Not hardly. Only when they "knew" it was the truth would they do that. If it was a lie or some made up story they would have run for the hills.

      Rationalize it all you like, you can't prove any of what you are saying. It's all some atheist's opinion, maybe your own. Have a nice day.

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

        Will you admit evolution is a lie?

        Will you admit that you're just a hate filled bigot?

        • Banastre tarleton

          Sounds like something from the Inquesition ! …will you finally stop denying Christ ?…I can WELL understand how you folks could burn heretics

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            No, I'm an anti-troll, anti-bigot American.

            And you deserve to be stalked because the poison your spew needs to be challenged.
            You admitted it was a game to smear and attack Christianity until I came along.

      • Ricky Michael

        You go prove that it is. You can't do that either. That's my whole point to the arugment, this is all opinion about what is and what isn't true.

        The Bible requires only this, "All followers are to accept on faith. Proof is not required." Blessed is he who believes and has not seen. If proof was required, then we would all be you. We're not.

        • Jesusinator

          The bible requires you to blindly follow it. That is what faith is <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • Ricky Michael

            Only your opinion. Mine is that following it is a good thing to do.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Lead your poison, the question is where to?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You still pretend not to understand it.

            I am a Christian, I am to follow the teachings of Christ.
            Even Jews don't follow all of the Bible.

            And yes, the Law of God (Ten Commandments will stand for all eternity).

        • Jesusinator

          On a side note I have these replies from Roger in my inbox. I wonder what he is saying about me? Don't care I am going to delete them and not waste my time. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Just the normal, pointing out you're simply a the filled bigot.

            And you're still using the same failed talking points.
            DId you supervisor at work tell you you're not allowed to read my comments any more? Was it making it too hard to control the drinking?

      • tagalog

        If you're talking about MY logic, please try to keep in mind that I didn't say a word about what is true and what is not true; I only talked about what people believe.

        • Ricky Michael

          Ok, lets say they went to their deaths, willing for something they believed was true. All this happened within a few years from the beginning (AD33). Some of those involved may have even witnessed the events in Jerusalem. Can you really think that they would not have known whether or not what they based their belief on was true or not? If the man called Jesus didn't raise from the dead and they were just making up stuff, would a sane person go to his death for it? That doesn't make since.

          It all about what they believed and why they believed (way back then.) Now days, we can only theorize about what happened back then, with our own bias influencing our judgment.

          • tagalog

            I didn't say anything about what anybody knew, or knows. I also didn't speculate about what anybody in another culture at another time was doing.

          • Ricky Michael

            Your comment got my attention somehow, mainly in it's authoritative tone.

            "The Christians thought they were martyrs"

            That does sounds like speculation to me. Sorry, if it wasn't intended to be and I misunderstood. It also sounds like your opinion, which you are entitled to as well. They were indeed martyrs, however, my opinion was that not one of them wanted to do it willingly.

          • tagalog

            Nothing speculative about that quotation. That's exactly what contemporary writers, both Christian and pagan, recorded about them.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Facts are what they are.

          • Banastre tarleton

            But there are Xian facts and heretic facts

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Nope, facts are what they are.
            And you are what you are, how sad.

          • tagalog

            I didn't say anything about what anybody knew, or knows.

            I said nothing about the Resurrection.

            I said nothing about whether or not Christianity's beliefs are true.

            I also didn't speculate about what assumptions anybody in another culture at another time had.

            I know what the Christians thought about their persecution and what the Romans thought about it because there are contemporary written sources that tell what they believed at the time, including the New Testament.

            I know about Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism (what was the Greek word, homoousious, hypostases, something like that), and other issues in the development of Christian doctrine because I'm familiar with the histories of the Councils of Niceaea and Chalcedon, which set out the problems that were to be resolved accurately and contemporaneously with their existence. I memorized the Apostles' Creed long ago. I also have read Tertullian's (The Prescription Against the Heretics) and St. Augustine's writings (Confessions, The City of God) about these issues.

          • Ricky Michael

            I'm not questioning your knowledge, which is hugley impressive. I question the reason for you or anyone else to make the statement the "Christians thought they were martyrs." Back then, when it was happening, my opinion which is just as valid as anyone else's, was that they thought they were victims. Latter, during the council of Whatever, "they" called them martyrs, which in fact was what they were.

            I too. was required to memorize the Apostle's Creed, my family is Roman Catholic. I am a New Testament Christian.

          • tagalog

            Do you see some contradiction between someone seeing him or herself as a victim and a martyr at the same time? I mean, they talk about Christ on the cross as both the Lamb of God and the Savior. The Christian martyrs in the Roman arenas in Rome and Constantinople were known for singing hymns as they were torn apart and their flesh melted from their bones.

            I am a practicing Presbyterian. My family has been Presbyterian since approximately 1700, when they converted from being Separatists, which they were throughout the 17th Century, to Presbyterianism, when the Separatists and the Puritans were more or less lost in the crowd of immigrants in the Massachusetts Bay Colony and Plimouth Plantation during the period 1620-1700. I have some familiarity with Roman Catholic dogma, having attended a Catholic high school in my teen years.

          • Ricky Michael

            Singing doesn't mean approval, lets give one for the team. The way your sentence read, seemed to imply to they liked being Martyrs, the same way the Muslims use the term. They (Islamists) do believe it's good to go to their death for their faith. The Christians during the 1st century hid themselves from those evil people who put them into the arena. The Christian symbol we know as the Fish, Icthus, was developed during this time to communicate one christian with another as a sign. They hid in the catacombs from the Romans. At the time all this was happening, I doubt they wanted it to happen.

          • tagalog

            Nobody's saying the Christian martyrs approved of their being persecuted. I'm saying that it's clear from their behavior that they believed that they were being martyred. When someone got picked up they were seen, and saw themselves, as martyrs. It's also reported in the contemporary literature, including the New Testament.

          • Ricky Michael

            Simantics I guess, this I can agree with somewhat. I have often wondered how we would react if put to the test like this. Like cowards begging for mercy, or with peace brought about by singing? I hope we neve have to find out.

          • tagalog

            It's clearly NOT semantics: your view involves evaluating the early Christians from an American 21st Century perspective of victimhood. My view involves evaluating them from what they said about themselves, and what historians and the Christian Church afterward have said about them.

            Roman imperial culture was very, very different, about as different from 21st Century America's World of Wimpiness as it's possible to get and still be a Westerner. They believed in heroes big time, and the Christian Romans were part of that.

          • Ricky Michael

            Ah, your opinion prevails again. We are obviously talking about two different time periods. The ones who it was happening to (those killed) and the ones who later wrote what they thought about what happened (who loved the heros.) Nothing written in the scriptures themselves states that type of attitude form the christains of that time. This is the reason I doubt they bragged about their fellow being maytyred at the time it was happening.

          • Banastre tarleton

            They do ''like being martyres ''….so they can win approval from God and be with God for eternity …they are infact the lightweight , less/non aggressive version of Islam

            Religious psychopaths ….IE ''god told me to do it '' are the most dangerous people ever to walk this earth …let's face it , religion is a potent and powerful brew and the folks who overdose and get drunk on it are a MENACE to the rest of us

          • Ricky Michael

            I too can't stand the ones who say "God told me to." Those in my opinion are religious fanatics. There are also the apostates, like Mr. Hilter, who throughout history have caused great harm in the "name" of religion. However, the true children of God, follow the principals as written in the New Testament. Killing people is not one of them. Also, seeking to get killed is not there either. If you happen to get killed, for the sake of the Christ, then there is a crown of life waiting for you.

            Overall, your comment is froth with your opinion on a subject you don't really want to know the truth about. Your writing style is VERY simular to the Jesusinator, aka, WeeToddEdwards.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Like the atheists such as yourself who have murdered more in the name of communism than religions have?

          • Looking4Sanity

            Yep. That number must be up into the billions by now! Chairman Mao racked up over 100 million all by his lonesome!

          • Looking4Sanity

            And here's the difference they fail to factor in…killing someone while defending yourself is not an act of murder. Killing someone for what they believe is definitely murder.

    • Ricky Michael

      All atheist opinion and can't be proven.

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

        They rip on creation because there are no eye witnesses, but there are no eye witnesses to evolution either.

        • Ricky Michael

          The Evolution Religion was founded by Charles Darwin, who did not have access to the technology that would confirm or deny his assumptions. We do have them now. He had no clue of how complicated a single cell truly is. We know, he didn't. What is amazing is all the scientists who blindly follow Macro evolution as gospel. The only evolution that can clearly be seen is Micro evolution which involves changes within the species to adjust to outside influences, ie, climate, food source, etc. But making a dog into a cat, it ain't happening.

          The only logical assumption would be that someone made all this.

        • tagalog

          I don't know who you mean by "they," but rationalists are skeptical about creation because there is no empirical proof, and their lives are ruled by the dictates of logical positivism.

          One way of looking at religion vs. reason is that religion answers "why" things are while reason tries to find answers to "how" things are. That is a bit facile, and it doesn't stand up under rigorous analysis, but it's workable on the prima facie level and does highlight the differing functions of reason and religion.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            All that fits evolution much better than intelligent design.

            Why do males have nipples? There is no evolutionary reason for it.
            Why are bird bones hollow? It would have been useless even a disadvantage to pre-flight birds.

            Your argument, when the words are swapped is much more accurate.

          • tagalog

            It's ridiculous to talk about evolution as somehow denying the existence of God. The usual reply to that claim is to point out that when God created the universe, He also created the rules by which it operates, including evolution, assuming evolution is proved to be scientifically valid, which it seems it probably will be, and that evolution, along with everything else, is progressing as God intended it to.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            All those words, and it means nothing.

            Intelligent design means there was a creator.

        • Banastre tarleton

          UTTERLY PATHETIC

      • Ricky Michael

        Creationist scientists use the same data and come to a different logical conclusion. Facts backup faith everytime.

        • Jesusinator

          Can you provide some actual facts the prove god is real? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • Ricky Michael

            Nope.

            But I have in the past shown you many,many times that our world clearly shows intelligent design has taken place. That sir, should be enough for you.

            God is clearly shown by the things that have been made. (See Romans 1) It also says what your are when you deny it.

          • Jesusinator

            Like what? I have provided you many times that shows evolution is a fact <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • Ricky Michael

            The only evolution you have been able to show as fact, Micro evolution, is indeed a fact. Never have you been able to show that Macro (changing from one thing into another) happens.

            The order of all things clearly shows design. Question, how is it that the earth is exactly in the right place (orbit around the sun) to support life? A few miles closer we would burn up. A fews miles farther away we would all freeze to death. Does it really make since that random chance made it that way? Or did a designer choose this place to put us here?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            There is evidence of adaptation within a pre-determined scope.

            Wee wee can't show it's outside of the control of the intelligent designer.

          • Ricky Michael

            All show order of design and does not show a "cross over" from a human to a giraffe. There are also similarities between the development of a human fetus and a fish, they both have gills but the human develps past that during gestation. Humans and reptiles have simularities during gestation. Both have tails, but the human's change as it progresses. When the human baby is born, it is always human, not a fish or a lizard.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You know you lose on the issue, so you try to confuse with enough noise to distract from them.

            Intelligent design makes sense evolution doesn't.
            Can you show what evolutionary advantage the long legged stork would have halfway to those long legs?

          • patriothere

            Somebody tries to articulate what they are saying and your pea brain can't process it?

          • patriothere

            The fact that he is alive is his evolutionary advantage.

          • Ricky Michael

            Changes within a species is Micro Evolution. It is an effect from an outside cause like a climate change.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            It shows the design was intelligent enough to have flexibility.

            You just keep floundering.

          • Eyes_Open

            An ape like creature, walking on all fours but able to stand, move to a new environment where the fruit of the trees are slightly higher and the temperature is slightly hotter. The offspring that can stand AND walk on hind legs alone and have slightly thinner fur cope better with the environment and product more like themselves. Is this new species a product of micro evolution of macro evolution?

          • Ricky Michael

            Yep, Micro. Benifical addptation.

            During Brittans' industrial revolution, the soote produced by factories coated the plant life. There white moths showed up against the darkened background and were more easily consumed by birds. that left the dark moths to reproduce in the gene pool. An adaptive change to enviroment. Years latter, they cleaned up the air being produced, causing the reverse to happen.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You're making a tactical error perhaps.

            Can he show those things actually happened? Or are you weakening the creation concept by not challenging that those changes actually happened? We know that those creatures existed, what we dont' know is that evolution macro – or – micro were the causes.

          • Ricky Michael

            Maybe, I'm not perfect.

            It's all theory anyway. We only know what we can observe. Humans are getting bigger, stronger, smarter for some reason. It stands to reason that changes within the species does happen, improving the chances of survival.

            But, Macro, nope not happening. Try as they may, they haven't come close to proving that.

          • Eyes_Open

            If that species moved even further for more plentiful food, and the same problems increased; the food was a little further off the ground and the temperature was a little hotter, so the creature adapted to being a few inches taller to reach the fruit, and lost more hair to cope with the rising temperature, this would be micro evolution as well?

          • Ricky Michael

            Your point?

            A monkey would still be a monkey even though he looses his hair and gets taller. Environment is not the end all of everything. Lots of times its because of the gene pool too. If only the healthy and larger monkeys get to breed, then only their genes are passed along.

          • Eyes_Open

            My point is, through two micro evolutions an ape like creature HAS become a homo erectus, which is only one more step from being a modern human. That is how Macro Evolution works. You can call yourself a monkey all you want but science will still call you a human.

            And this does take into account the gene pool. Only the creatures with the advantage of being taller and less hairy survived, and their DNA had the tall, hairless genes that got passed on to the offspring, making it a new species with different DNA sequences. In some mutations we have even seen the DNA sequences loose or gain in the number of paired chromosomes resulting in more variation.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And my point is you don't know that. It wasn't observed and it's not proven.

            There are some skeletal remains of different species, but there is no proof that one evolved into another.

          • Eyes_Open

            And there aren't even skeletal remains to prove that Adam and Eve ever existed, or any proof of the garden of Eden, or their sons, or the "creatures" that their sons married. At least evolution has the beginnings of proof. There is nothing to back up the possibility of magical mud people.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            There is evidence of intelligent design.
            You are evidence of intelligent design.

          • Eyes_Open

            That would make you evidence of unintelligent design? Just kidding, you opened the door on that line.

            I don't doubt intelligent design, but I believe that it goes hand-in-hand with evolution. Biblical Creationism precludes intelligent design. I am glad to see you embrace the evidence that creationism isn't the way things happen.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            War is peace?

            Intelligent design does not preclude a designer.
            Creation dictates a creator, the designer.

            And evolution claims it was an accident, a chance thing that just 'happened'.

            I'm glad to see you are so desperate you twist things so obviously.

          • Eyes_Open

            Intelligent design typically refers to the concept of divinely guided evolution. Whereas creationism states that thing were made as they are today, poofed into existence fully formed. Two very different notions, the only similarity is the belief in an intelligence higher than our own.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Again, you're wrong as typically happens.

            You are trying to tell me what I meant, and that's not working very well.

            And just to make sure you didn't impose your pagan friendly definitions I explained why I said what I did.

          • Eyes_Open

            Yes, trying to tell you anything factual doesn't work very well, you are incapable of comprehension.

            Literal, factual definitions, again beyond you comprehension.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You don't bother with facts, that's the problem.

            I comprehend in spite of you.

          • Ricky Michael

            The cross over from the ape species into homo sapien sapien doesn't exist. Changes in apes does. Changes in humans does. But still there are the two disticnt species.

            Everything else, from bones of "partial" remains is all speculation or therory.

          • Eyes_Open

            No one ever said that humans came from apes, only that we have an ancestral species in common. Now I have pointed out how micro evolution can lead to macro evolution and you want to blindly dismiss it because it doesn't fit into your belief system. Well, that is your option, but it doesn't prove it to be false just because you don't want to follow the evidence.

            But still you want to shoot down the scientific evidence without providing a single piece of factual evidence to support an alternate theory.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And you have no proof that happened.
            You have a theory, nothing more. You have claimed that micro evolution might lead to macro, but have no examples or support for that.

          • Eyes_Open

            There is plenty of evidence. Skeletal evidence that shows marginal chance from one species to another. Just because it doesn't fit into you belief system, you reject it. Your rejection of the evidence doesn't mean it isn't there, just that you are close minded.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            No, there is skeletal evidence those animals were alive, not that they evolved.

            I could probably find the skeletal remains of a kitten, but I wouldn't try to say it evolved into a smaller cat.

          • Eyes_Open

            You are so comfortable, wallowing in your ignorance. No one will ever get you to leave it so I'm going to stop trying.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Thank you, the talking points tasted chalky.

          • Ricky Michael

            If wisdom teeth are not necessary, the logic of evolution would be that these would no longer trouble humans and disappear. However, I had to have mine removed when I was a teen. There are a lot of people I know personally who have theirs, right where they came in. this proves nothing even close to evolution.

          • Ricky Michael

            Hahaha, somebody has found some really good atheist material on evolution.

            You have proved nothing regarding the existance of Macro evolution. What you have proven is my point, how both sides of the argument look at the same data and arrive at different conclusion.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You've been batted around so much you're resorting to multi-part rants again?

            Let's face it. You're just an angry little man with a small flask at your work terminal. Your supervisors probably watch you close and can't stand it when you venture off the approved talking points.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            All those words and you said nothing.
            All those big words, and you can't even use them so they say anything.

            The model of evolution is that when something worked, the organism survived and the 'something' survived with it. That doesn't explain the diversity we have on the planet. If evolution were true only the top model would be here thriving.

          • Ricky Michael

            Mr. Over-Thinker. You said a whole lot of words that doesn't change the fact that evolution is just a theroy that can't be proven. You can go to the Discovery Institute website and find many, many scientists that do not agree with evolution and support intelligent design. They have a huge library of their work and their research. Your's is not the only game in town.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Only your muslim friendly religion points towards violence.

            And intelligent design left so much information and possible variation that life adapts and survives. Evolution wouldn't do that. It would only allow the fittest, not the variety we have now.

          • Ricky Michael

            The "Religious" world has done violence, but the true children of God, who follow the New Testament as written, have not.

          • Ricky Michael

            Totally, ridiculous reply back "to ME." Look at it. If I were indeeded required to eliminate all who reject my "religion" by the NT, as you claim, or I reverted back to the OT as you claim, then you would be in some real trouble. I have your home address.

            Nothing, however, is farther from the truth. I would never harm anyone, in fact, I consider you a friendly adversary. If I didn't like our discussions, I would simply ignore you. Also, I like whipping your arguments all the time. You just keep right on coming after me, my friend.

          • Eyes_Open

            And the Wiccans, we have been dodging the proverbial "monotheistic bullet" for three thousand years. And we don't care if you don't believe.

          • Jesusinator

            Which is why I have no problem with the Wiccans. They don't shove it down others throats <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You have a problem with anyone who follows the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

            It's pretty clear.

            And you shove it down their throats.

          • Ricky Michael

            All three of us would be standing side by side during that fight if it comes to that. Neither one of you would be sfae either.

          • Jesusinator

            You gonna cut us? Just kidding <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • Ricky Michael

            Perhaps you misunderstood me. All three of us would be fighting against the Islamists who would be seeking to kill all three of us for not convert to Islam.

            Contary to the statements about Christians on this site, I would not stand by while someone is being wrongfully harmed, even Wiccans. That would be the wrong thing to do, wouldn't it?

          • Jesusinator

            I did missunderstand you. Sorry <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Your hate blinds you to all reason.

          • Jesusinator

            I did missunderstand you. Sorry <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • Eyes_Open

            I would fight beside you. My fight would be to keep the secular state (and to stay alive). We have see the damage any religious government will do. As tolerant as Wicca is to other religions, I still wouldn't want a government that was run by a religion.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Then why attack Christianity but remain silent on Sharia?

          • Eyes_Open

            I have not remained silent on any religious group that advocates or commits violence. You just ignore the comments against other violence because it doesn't further your agenda.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And going over your comment stream I don't see that played out.

          • Eyes_Open

            And you have no idea what I do on other sites. There isn't many Muslims on this site to debate with so there aren't many comments to that effect here.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Sure, what ever. LIke I'm so totally convinced that you're totally different on other sites that aren't on your comment stream….

            Oh btw, Wee wee is like 20 minutes late this morning. What happened to his desk? Did they give it to a decent troll today?

          • Eyes_Open

            Wow, really keeping close taps on WTE. I think I detect a little man-love thing going on with you.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Yeah, I'm a man and he loves to hate my religion.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And atheism should have no place either, since it's a belief system.

            Neutrality, that's what the founding fathers wanted.

          • Eyes_Open

            Yes, it's called secularism. The complete absents of religion in a governmental system.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Your version of that is hostile to religion, not neutral.

          • patriothere

            Good. Religion does not require proof or evidence. It's just nonsense.

          • Ricky Michael

            Yes, if it were written in the NT you would be in some real trouble. Harm someone? Only if they were threatening harm against my family or other innocent people, then yes, without hesitation I would. But, against only myself, I would seeks options first and depend on the situation, then I would act. If I were in the military, yes most definately, being a soldier and acting like one is not forbidden.

          • Jesusinator

            What if god told you to harm your wife? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • Ricky Michael

            God did tell me something, Mr. Edwards.

            Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, Ephesians 5:24-26

            Whipped again.

          • Jesusinator

            So what if god told you to harm your wife? Would you do it? You have failed to answer the question. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            What if your muslim friendly moral guidance said to strap a suicide vest on her?

            Oh, that's right. On this profile you pretend to be muslim friendly but not actually muslim.

            Have you started hitting that little flask again?

            There are meetings that can help with that.

          • Ricky Michael

            I would know that "the voice" was not from God if he told me something that contradicted the written word of God. Not happening. I have answered your question, just not the way you want. That's not happening either.

          • Jesusinator

            How would you know? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • Ricky Michael

            Contary to whatever WTEs thinks, God does not contradict himself.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Romans 1.

            it's sad to watch it play out in someone's comments.

          • Ricky Michael

            Oh, yes it is. I quoted that one to him just this week. Ignored of course. No reply.

          • Jesusinator

            Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts. (Isaiah 3:16-17) Contradicted by: But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matthew 5:28) <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And can you show that this is what Christ taught? That it's what Christians are to follow?

            Of course not. I can show you throw these things out simply out of hate filled bigotry.

          • Ricky Michael

            You misuse both scriptures by trying to compare them. One dealt with the sins of the Hebrews. The other is a part of the New conventent that makes the intent (message) of the law clear for everyone to understand. Not only is do the act wrong, but even thinking about is wrong.

          • Jesusinator

            Sounds like a bad excuse to me. Here is one very simple example. On the day Moses comes down from Mount Sinai with the stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments, he discovers that the Israelites have created a golden calf. To punish the people, Moses gathers a group of men and takes the following action in the book of Exodus, Chapter 32. So… one minute we have God carving into stone, “Thou shalt not kill.” Then the next minute we have God telling each man to strap a sword to his side and lay waste to thousands. Wouldn't you expect the almighty ruler of the universe to be slightly more consistent than this? 3,000 dead people is a lot of commandment breaking. Obviously that is a total contradiction. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • Ricky Michael

            This is circular aruguing and I'm retiring from it.

            Whipping you today has worn me out.

          • Ricky Michael

            I have 1500 answers too.

          • Jesusinator

            But will any of them be right? <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • Jesusinator

            Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (Exodus 20:4) Contradicted by: And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. (Exodus 25:18) <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And how does this have any connection to what Christ taught His followers? Graven images, that's such a muslim thing. We don't burn and pillage when someone draws Christ.

            We don't worship images, but that doesn't mean art should be destroyed like the buddhas in Afghanistan.

            You keep exposing yourself in so many ways.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            It's not a contradiction.
            God ordering something, and we ordering something are polar opposites. Your bigotry blinds you.

          • Ricky Michael

            Both written to the Hebrews. Perhaps you should try to understand the message/reason being discussed instead of just reading superfically.

            Ex 20:4 deals with them worshipping the images.
            Ex 25:18 is part of a "chair" on top of the Ark, which the Angel of the Lord would use as he led his people out of Egypt.

            Just pityful. whipped again.

          • Jesusinator

            So. it is still a contradiction. Not even close to whipping me <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            It's not a contradition.

            You're just refusing to actually read what it was saying and what happened.

            How is God directing us to not do something a limit one something He has already done?

            You're just desperate. it's dripping form you like your hate.

          • patriothere

            What makes evolution better than you ignorance is that Evolution requires proof. Evidence. You have no evidence that those who follow the new testament have committed violence. Science demands facts, proof evidence. Scientists have compiled evidence, fossils, bones etc. proving that the earth is over a billion years old. Not only that but there is proof that dinosaurs existed yet no mention of them in the bible. Why did god ignore the dinosaurs? He must of created them but just forgot to mention them?

          • Eyes_Open

            You should know I would get you on this one.

            1) earth’s orbit is elliptical and the distance from the sun varies from around 147 million kilometers to 152 million kilometers on any given year.

            2) Every star has a habitable zone that is affected by the size of the star and its intensity. The Sun’s habitable zone is about 0.95 AU to 1.37 AU. An AU is the Earth’s average distance from the Sun, 93 million miles, soothe Earth’s orbit could decrease by 4,500,000,miles or increase by 34,000,000 miles and still be in the habitable zone.

            3) If your claim was true any moderately sized earthquake could take us out of the habitable zone.

          • Ricky Michael

            1) A few miles is a relative term, non specific. The elipcial orbits helps to account to the seasons.

            2) You and I both know that there are some inhabitable zones in space. Every star? Come on.

            3) Since huge quakes do not do that, then there is a flaw somewhere in your argument.

          • Eyes_Open

            Yes, every star has an inhabitable zone, they don't all have planets within this zone, but they all have the zone.

            A few is a relative term, but I seriously don't think you meant that 4.5 million miles was "a few". But yes, if you meant if you did then an earthquake wouldn't do it, but if you meant more like 8 or 10, then an earthquake could and has moved the Earth that distance.

          • Ricky Michael

            Moving so I can read these
            "But will any of them be right?"

            Yes so easy, if and when you always stay on a superfical level and take verses out of their context. Maybe you can fool the masses and scare them because depth of study is so very shallow. Mine is not, sir.

          • Jesusinator

            Scripture is not open to intrepertation it is to be read literally……………………according to the bible <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Yes, and as a Christian I take Christ's teachings literally.

            You just can't get past your hate.

          • Ricky Michael

            Once again you show your naiveté concerning the scriptures. Just because I understand what I’m reading does not automatically mean I am interpreting something into something it’s not. The Bible has all types of literary techniques within its pages. Hyperbole, allegory, contrast, humor, irony, the list goes on and on. Taking everything literally, shows your intentional predetermined atheist agenda. You expose yourself when you do that, and it is so very obvious to anyone who is honestly reading the book.

          • Looking4Sanity

            If evolution is a "fact", as you claim, then why is it called the "THEORY" of evolution?

            As usual, you are full of crap.

          • Jesusinator

            Micro-Evolution is a fact you worthless POS <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Is it? Or is it a designed flexibility in all life?

            Intelligent design is not disproved by small adjustments.

          • Ricky Michael

            Good point, great way to look at it.

          • Looking4Sanity

            What you call “micro evolution”, I call perfection of design. Prove me wrong, moron.

          • Jesusinator

            I love how you can't read. We went over this the other day please try and keep up. Wisdom teeth problems – need I say more? We have a much smaller jaw than a chimp and the same number of teeth. Why? Our jaws became smaller as our brains got bigger (tradeoff for birth canal passage is a likely reason). An infected wisdom tooth 100 years ago could be life threatening. Not an intelligent design. Biological organisms are not intelligently designed, they are cobbled together. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            I love how you can't read or admit to anything

            Please try to keep up.

          • Looking4Sanity

            If brain size and jaw size were correlative, you would have nothing but a gaping maw full of teeth sitting on top of your neck right now. Fortunately for you, God is not that cruel.

            In a similar vein, God gave you two ears and one mouth because He intended you to listen twice as much as you talked. You've managed to pervert THAT gift as well. Is there no bottom to the depths of your depravity?

          • Jesusinator

            Once again you say nothing <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Once again he did, and you had nothing to respond with other than hate and bigotry. And since that seems to be running low (that flask almost empty yet?) you punted with nothing.

          • Jesusinator

            I know you have a short attention but maybe someone can help you with this: ncse.com/files/pub/evolution/Voices_3e.pdf Chapter 3 is my favorite <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            I know you have a short attention span, but try to keep up.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Of course we can prove with actual facts that our God is real.

            We are here, intelligent design worked.

          • Eyes_Open

            That only proves that you are here, not that your god put you here.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            It indicates I was placed here.
            I know, my family tree is traceable back to 1066, so it isn't just me that was placed here. It was a system for life that was designed and put into action.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Are you the first homo in your family to never have a girlfriend?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Are you the first muslim troll in your family to get fixated on men you can't have?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Does that mean I hit a nerve, you're just one muslim freak that is fixated on men you can't have?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Why should we all suddenly believe you are not a homo?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Why should you stubbornly believe that you have a right to know things that are none of your business muslim homo freak?

            Just because you fixate on men you can't have doesn't mean a thing in regards to what I should do or not do.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I don't have a right. But I still want to point out to everybody that you won't admit you have never had a girlfriend.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You want lots of things.

            So, how does it feel to want?

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I like it. And I am getting want I want. I am exposing you as a homo.

            Now tell us how beautiful your girlfriend is.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You only expose you're a lonely person who fixates on what you can't have.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I don't want your a s s h ole, you freak.

            Why are you turning it into something homo?

            Just tell us all if you have a girlfrend like any normal man would do.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            No normal gentleman would discuss his private life with a guy who wants to see his head in a basket.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Keeping your girlfriend a secret while running after men on the internet like WeeTodd, is not gentlemanly.

            A gentleman would say that he has a girlfriend and that would be the end of it.

            But you can't do that…..why?

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You sad excuse of carbon.

            You are the last person I would share anything of a personal nature with.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            What's so personal about saying you have a girlfriend?

            Only a homo would be offended.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            What is reasonable about wanting my head in a basket then wanting personal information?

            If your want to find out about real men join a support group or find a web site.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I don't think they would waste a good basket with your bloody head.

            Keven Stoell has NO PROBLEM telling me he has a wife. What did he expose his wife to? Nothing!!!

            You are manufacturing fake outrage in order to duck away from a question that is making you look more homo the longer you run away from it.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And you are struggling to manufacture a legit reason for needing to know.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I already told you the reason…to prove you are a homo.

            And it is working.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            You muslim friendly trolls don't understand our culture, do you?Frankly being straight or gay isn a big yawn here. Dick Cheney's daughter just married her lover.I'm not gay, but even if I was, nobody much cares.In Iran it may be a death penalty, but you're not proving anything one way or the other.You're just showing how fixated you are, how 'pakistani rat child' you are. And for every angry outburst you back up why you deserve to know nothing.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            Okay, you're not gay. But I believe you have made your share of gay jokes about Barney Frank.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            And you are still the pot smoking muslim freak who wants my head in a basket.

          • Alinsky USA HERO

            I don't want them to waste a basket on your head anymore. Just throw it in a river.

            Now get a girlfriend.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Why don't you put the bong down and get out of the basement more?

          • patriothere

            Oh so you admit that carbon is a fact? Did god tell you that or did you use the scientific method?

        • Eyes_Open

          Ok, I'm game. What facts back up creationism?

          • Ricky Michael

            Go read for yourself. Here is a whole list for you. http://www.discovery.org/csc/essentialReadings.ph

          • Eyes_Open

            All that link takes you to is a list of books to buy. I have no intention to buy a bunch of fantasy books. Do you have facts or not?

          • Ricky Michael

            Here is something you might try. Library. I hear you can borrow the books there Mr. Eyes.

            I have bought your type of fastacy books on evolution, because I wanted to understand the oppostion's point. Perhaps you should try too also.

          • Eyes_Open

            I'm raising a family, I can't afford to go out buying books for myself with kids still in school. And the libraries around here are closed by the time I get off work. Sux but true.

          • Ricky Michael

            this is the first thing all morning I can understand and agree with you. And whoever it is out there who is giving you the TUs and me the TDs should also go read some books on this.

            I have to go into a meeting. I can't play anymore. Have a nice day.

          • Eyes_Open

            Later…

          • Looking4Sanity

            Idiots like you should be banned from reproducing. That public school system you trust so much is going to make your offspring even stupider than you are. That's my Theory of DEvolution.

          • Eyes_Open

            This ^ coming from somebody that has to keep their knuckles wrapped because they can't stop dragging them. LOL

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Aren't you going to use the stuck in something like you did with me?

            Boy it seems that every single sane person here is out of step but you.

            Facts just escape you.

          • Looking4Sanity

            Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Any insult from him is a badge of honor.

            Those silly wiccan pagans.

          • patriothere

            I'm sure god is only a tiny part of your life. You spend most of your time on the internet. The godless internet. You heathen. Get off the internet. Jesus would not be on the internet. You spend most of your time on something that science has given us yet you disrespect it. You twit.

          • patriothere

            I am on the side that has proof. Evidence. Facts. Would you buy a drain cleaner from a store that says it works because god tole me it worked or would you try it our for yourself?

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

        And there are no facts that support your faith in atheism. The only thing real to you is your hate.

        • Banastre tarleton

          Have you never read a history of 16th C Europe and what xian fanatics on high octane religion can do ?…..''God told me to do it '' …Allah Achbar or the secular version of ''Ein Volk ''

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

            Yet you can't connect what they did with the teachings of Christ.
            And you can't show where those Christians are still doing those same things.

            You might show where one rogue church in Africa is violating what Christ taught, but you can't blame it on them following it.

  • Richard G.

    It is shocking to contemplate that on the whole conservative media seems to be as much in denial about the nature of Mormonism and its history as leftist media is about Islam. In its 19th century incarnation Mormonism was a violent, revolutionary movement. For a quarter of a century the Utah Territory was run by Brigham Young and the Mormon Apostles as a repressive dictatorial theocracy. It is during this time period that Mormon militiamen wiped out an entire wagon train of non-Mormans passing through Utah on September 11, 1857. But don't look for any mention of the Mountain Meadows Massacre in your history books. Unfortunately, this period in U.S. history is so overshadowed by events of the Civil War that few Americans know about it.

    • Argyraspide

      The Old Testament – quoted and revered by Jesus and his Apostles – is rife with genocide, torture, infanticide, looting and every sort of abomination, all ordered by the same God as the one of the so-called New Testament. The Mountain Meadow Massacre pails to virtual insignificance next to the Bible God-sanctioned violence perpetrated against the peoples of Canaan by Moses, Joshua and a host of other barbarians. I know, I know – God ordered it, so it was OK, right?

  • http://tarandfeathersusa.wordpress.com/ Iratus Vulgas

    OK, I'm going to say it and let the flames ignite what they will. For some conservative evangelicals, the notion that "Romney isn't conservative enough," is code for "I will never vote for a Mormon." I wonder how this will play out come November.

    • Looking4Sanity

      Personally, I'm going to vote for Romney. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg that he believes his underwear has magic properties. As long as he steers this country away from the soc-ialist course we're currently on and toward some economic stability, I could care less what his personal beliefs are at this point.

      It WOULD be a huge plus to me personally if he chose to put some of that piety to work prosecuting the criminals of this current administration once he takes office, though!

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

      No it's not. You are wrong.

    • Looking4Sanity

      Usually, people who have the thought "I will never vote for a Mormon" aren't timid about coming right out and saying so point blank. I've actually seen one or two people say as much on public forums…but they are not in the majority. I doubt they are even plentiful enough to warrant having this discussion.

      I will admit that I have serious reservations about the Mormon faith, but then I'm not voting for a spiritual leader, am I? I'm voting for a political leader. I already have a spiritual leader and He has an eternal "appointment" which does not rely upon a popular vote.

      All that concerns me is one question…Will Romney be an improvement over Obama? The answer is unequivocally "YES". Issue settled.

  • A Bible reading Jew

    Mormons are great patriotic citizens. Mormon (and all candidates theology and religious) beliefs are a private matter and we have to vote for a President and his policies. Mormaons have serves as prior Secretaries of Agriculture as well as in many other appointed and elected positions. Mormons have made great boy scouts, soldiers and businessmen. Mormons are NOT anti American! Mormon majority areas are cleaner and have less crime and drug use than other demographics groups (in contrast of course to that of African American/ black ghettos).

    When u vote, you have to realize that a vote against Romney helps Barrack Hussein Obama and his pro-marxist, pro big government, pro Islamist/Moslem Brotherhhod fundamental transformation not only continue, but accelerate.

    Romney is not my favorite politician and probably not yours, but Obama is my least favorite one. Think and vote like a real American in November!

  • mlcblog

    Mormons are in general fine, upstanding citizens and good stewards of their resources.

    We've had Christians, a Catholic, a black person. Maybe it's time for a Mormon to have a shot.

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs Roger

      At least he's not a marxist of muslim heritage.

  • Theophilus

    Dennis, I think you've made the wrong approach to this topic. If the problem were only about "irrational" beliefs, then you might be justified. The problem is not that the Mormons are human beings and as human beings prone to the same failures as the rest of us–something that should not require explanation. As human beings, every President of the United States has held or will hold irrational beliefs. The problem of Mormonism is two-fold: fraud and threat. Many would quickly call me a bigot for that statement, but I assure you that I base my opinion upon extensive reading of documents and texts printed during the first one hundred years of the development of the Mormon faith. If you look at the first one hundred years of Christianity and compare that to the first one hundred years of Mormonism, I don't think you could miss the extreme differences–though the uneducated or biased might. Now, if I were speaking of the Nazis, no one would call me a bigot for saying these exact same things–and although Mormonism is clearly not on the same level of tragic evil, it is definitely cut from the same cloth: self-serving and patently false claims to superiority and special authority endowed by God for the purpose of subjugating the credulous and denigrating representatives of the old order of things–perhaps, as with the Nazis, including even the persecution of God's people. Having said that, I do not intend my words to belittle or demean the Holocaust or place anyone else's suffering on par with that of the Jewish people beneath the yoke and taint of Nazi corruption–though to be sure many others did suffer along with them.

    Mormonism makes claims about traditional Judaism and Christianity that cannot be supported from the historical or Scriptural record. Mormonism makes assumptions about the place of Jews and Christians based upon the lies of its founders. Mormonism makes of its supporters dupes who have been deceived for the purposes of exploitation and survival. Many who are opposed to Christianity and Judaism fail to understand even the most superficial distinctions between "people of the book" and Mormons, but you, I would think, should understand. One has only to compare the Book of Mormon alongside Torah, for Jews, and the Holy Bible, for Christians, to see that they are not inspired by the same Author. Such a comparison would make clear a huge, irreconcilable difference between those involved at the outset and their attitudes toward themselves and others. The New Testament never condemns those who keep the commandments of God, only those who falsely claim that they do. The Jew serving God and the Christian serving God are brothers–though you may not think so, and I would understand entirely if you don't. The Mormon has no part in this community of faith (unless he or she abandons the lies of their leaders), but seeks by claims of special authority to displace both groups. If the Mormons are not a threat to others (believers or otherwise), ask yourself why they work so hard to deceive us about their actual beliefs. Ask yourself why they keep the deep divide between their beliefs and Scriptures hidden as long as possible. The Christian will be quick to acknowledge actual differences between their beliefs and everyone else's. The Mormon, not so much. As a Christian, I find it insulting to be lumped together with Mormons because of the most superficial similarities. If I lumped Jews and Muslims together because of a few superficial cultural or religious similarities, I think both groups would begin to understand how I feel. Yes, the schism between real Christianity and real Mormonism is that great.

    I would be as quick to denounce any other so-called Christian group(s) who are guilty of similar evils–as I hope I have demonstrated by my statements against the Nazis. Please note that I consider the Nazi attempts to subjugate and derail Christianity equivalent to the efforts of Mormon leaders from Joseph Smith on down to today. I think that this very thing has happened many times in the past and is responsible for most, if not all, of the atrocities committed by "the Church" throughout its history. In such cases, perhaps Marx was correct. Let me finish by stating that I know many would say that much of what I've said against Mormonism could be said against Christianity, but I would argue that Christianity, while occasionally derailed–to greater or lesser extent, by wicked men and women, has something good at its Root–but that Mormonism from its conception has been based upon wickedness, naming the Name only because it suits their purposes. But I am treating subjects beyond my original intent and requiring much greater depth than possible here. Thank you for bearing with me.

  • garethWill

    for what i have seen of it many people have hated the LDS church and the other mormon sub sects mainly out of ignorance of the religion. they also like to tell mormon what they believe at every corner and hate it when it is countered. many people hate difference and use many people as scapegoats.
    this happened in my family three generations ago when my great great grandparents decide to mary she was an Hasidic jew and he was a roman catholic. the parents on both sides disowned them due to hatred of each others faiths.

    my view is a person on their own can be a very rational person as a whole, apart from the odd homicidal maniac or bigot. most people want a peaceful life. but when you get a mass of people together they act like ants taking acting out everything they are told. i don’t think we will ever get rid of bigotry it is as old as man and will be here until not one man is left on this world