Enter the world of the Copts:
Why isn't the Church doing something to help these poor people? Heartbreaking
They are the descendants of the Ancient Egyptians. The first civilization. Yet the world worries only about Islam's interests.
Sadly, part of the reason is that the Roman and Byzantine Churches adopted the dual-natured interpretation of Christ's existence on earth, while the Copts are believers in the single nature of Christ. The schism that followed after the Council of Chalcedon created the Coptic Christian Church (I think their formal name is something like the Alexandrian Christian Church), and the Copts were considered to be out of the mainstream, although they were part of a pretty substantial movement -the Monophysites- in their day.
You've lost me. While I do appreciate the historical review, I don't see how it justifies persecution of a minority. It is a human rights problem.
I would have thought it would be fairly obvious. The Copts started their existence as schismatics from Rome and the Eastern Church. As a result, they were disliked for what Rome and Constantinople thought was a heretical stance. As history unfolded, and the Copts wound up isolated in Egypt, they were ignored by Rome and the Eastern Church, as were the Monophysite sects in Lebanon and Syria (Maronites and Syriacs, who continue to have viable churches today). That state of affairs lasted right into the present.
That's why the Roman and Eastern Orthodox Christian Churches aren't falling all over themselves to help them. Another example of shortsightedness on the part of the Christian Church if you ask me, but consistent with the ways of the two branches of the seniors of the Christian Church. Saltbeef_bagel asked why the mainstream Christian Churches weren't helping the Copts (he didn't raise the human rights issue) and I think the history lesson makes if self-evident why.
Once again, I appreciate the history. It reveals a depth of understanding of religious history and, unfortunately,a subtle anti-Christian bias. The fact remains, however, that the abuse the Copts are experiencing is a Muslim problem which reveals a deep intolerance of other religious expressions. There is little any one else can do to correct this injustice.
It does almost seem like Tagalog is excusing the actions of islamofascists in persecuting, murdering and raping Copts doesn't it?
First of all, your post contains a serious factual error. The Maronites are not monophysites but Catholics in full communion with the Roman and other branches of the Church.
Worse than that, it's a typically liberal screed that blames everything on Europeans/Whites/Westerners. Muslims are savagely persecuting Coptic Christians? Why, it's the Pope's fault, of course! Centuries ago there was a disagreement between Rome and Alexandria regarding a Christological question, so now the dirty old Nazi is not "falling over" himself to help.
I would bet anything the Pope would help the Copts if he could, but to paraphrase Joe Stalin, how many smart bombs does he have?
Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, the people who could do something–such as cutting off military to aid to Egypt–would never do it for fear of jeopardizing the glorious "Arab Spring", or–gasp!–being called "Islamophobic".
Maronites have full standing with the Roman Catholic Church, but only after 1180 A.D., around the time of the Islamic conquests in Syria that triggered the First Crusade. Before that, it is arguable that they were Monophysites. The Maronites deny it. Others say they were. I only mentioned them in passing. I'm surprised that, in your scrupulousness, you didn't point out that Maronites are Syriacs, too.
Your claim that my statement about the Maronites is a "serious error" suggests that you too agree that doctrinal differences remain sensitive, even in these secular, materialistic days of the 21st Century. Thank you for providing some buttressing for my stance.
I'm not blaming anybody. I said nothing about the Pope. I'm just trying to answer a question. I think my views would be considered right-wing by just about anybody's standards. I have respect for the truth, which is neither right-wing nor left-wing.
Why are you so quick to point the finger of blame at President Obama and Sec. of State Clinton? In what way does the horrid plight of the Copts impact on the national security of the United States?
Gee, I'd figure the zero and Hitlary would be taking the moral high ground and defending the defenseless from islamofascist persecution rather than hobnobbing w/the islamofascist leaders responsible for the persecution and continuing to fund his islamofascist theocracy. Of course, for the amoral, corrupt and apathetic morality is irrelevant.
Sir or madam,
You've lost all perspective. Others have been too patient.
This is persecution by Islamic supremacists. They don't give a damn what branch of Christianity one claims, because Islam claims "Issa" is correct and any other is a polytheist and non-Muslim. This justifies extortion-level poll taxes, threats of death, or whatever else is convenient and practical given the power held over the oppressed subjects.
With regard to any theories about why local or global Christians would not support them, it's because this has been going on for 14 centuries and this tepid response is where we are today. It does NOT matter what branch of Christianity is claimed. People are killed by Islamic supremacists wherever it suits the jihad objectives. It happens day in and day out and people just don't give a damn more because it also happened due to American policy failure. If anything, many feel it is deserved blowback just by association. Anyone killed as a result of US foreign policy (or domestic policy) is considered the fault of the most recent Republican president.
That about sums it up. All anyone can do is pray, or get over there and do something. Hand-wringing has been tried all this time. It only gets you so far.
You know, maybe that is it. If so it is a really bad reason. Secular science has so deprived religion of its ability to define the world we live in that dwelling on this primitive metaphysics would be nutty. Plus now there is the Muslim threat.
We don't dwell on it; it's largely forgotten by most people. Issues such as the spiritual nature of Christ were once critical to the development of Christian doctrine, but today, although those beliefs drive Christianity, they are largely ignored or forgotten even by the worshippers. Our religious thinkers are no longer very concerned about heresy. People who are interested in the history of medieval Europe, the Near East, and the history of the Christian Church know this stuff, but few others, except as they get it in passing in a college History of Western Civilization survey course.
Is the world a better place because Christians no longer place as much emphasis on doctrine as they once did? Perhaps; people aren't being tried by Inquisitors any more so that's good. Endless hair-splitting over doctrinal issues aren't driving Christians into the arms of Islam as it did in North Africa and the Near East during the first century of Islam. But the loss of emphasis on doctrine blurs the distinction between various sects of Christianity, and causes people to lose their faith and fall away from their churches. Some people think that's just fine. I'm not one of them.
Surprisingly, people must be reminded that the Near East as far east as Mesopotamia and Persia was overwhelmingly Christian right into the 8th Century A.D. and still has large groups of Christians in it. People haven't exactly forgotten that, but that historical fact has dropped off many peoples' radar. The recent rise of Islamic militancy is reviving it, but it's still an unfamiliar fact.
In the long run, the fight against Islamic militancy will not be won in the secular arena; it will be won when Christians see the threat (as they once did), and take steps to stop it. it was done before and can be done again, but it will require a revival of doctrinal Christianity and a foreclosing of the kind of thought that equates Christians with oppressors and warmongers.
I could not agree with you more, and will only add that we westerners should arm and train to Copts and Maronites of Lebenon to fight the islamic scourge that threatens us all.
Why aren't the Copts doing something for themselves? They should get weapons and respond in kind to the muslim atrocities, murders and kidnappings.
They stuck with dimmitude because they are outnumbered. The rest of us Europeans put up with it because culturally we are not in good working order.
Outnumbered 10 to 1 and herded and controlled like sheep.
The Copts are in a position similar to the Jews in the Third Reich in the 1930s. They see themselves as among the most Egyptian of Egyptians, as having predated the rise of Islam, are reluctant to leave their homeland, and probably expect that tolerance for them will ultimately prevail.
It's been a very long time since Islam slaughtered unbelievers in huge numbers. Well, wait a minute, there WAS that genocide by the Turks of the Armenians in what, 1916? But the last 50 years shows us where Islam is going to go.
Tell that to the million odd kufrs slaughtered in the Sudan/Darfur in the late 20th/early 21st century by muslimes, or maybe the 2.5 million odd Hindus slaughtered in Bangladesh by islamofascists in the 1970's , or maybe the ten thousand odd kufrs/infidels (mostly Catholic) slaughtered in E. Timor by Indonesian muslimes (also in the 1970's).
Why are my comments being deleted?
What a disease Islam is. I thank God every day that I am no longer a Muslim.
You are a MAN of conscience. May God bless you.
Of course the Copts predate the Muslims by at least 300 years as a distinct Christian sect (subsequent to the Council of Chalcedon), and by 700 years as Christians, and have senior status, but I suppose that means nothing when you see your religion as the only true one.
Copts predate the Muslims invaders by 630 years, just a correction
The Copts predate them by more than that, but the Coptic Christian Church is the 630 years you're speaking of. I'm sure you meant that, but some want to equate the arab invaders with the legitimate people of Egypt.
I just had to write an essay after watching that video; http://www.freedomrings1776.com/2012/08/a-new-exo…
Who is the screaming woman? Is that Brigitte Gabriel in one of her many disguises?
Really, with all the time you spend posting your sick minded hatred, you increase the probability that the doctors and nurses will discover what you are up to. And probably increase your meds. Again.
The only reason she needs disguises would be the hundreds, if not thousands of death threats she's received from members of the religion of peace.
Enough is enough, f-ck off and die muzzy lover.
That woman's daughter was kidnapped.
You're a soulless animal.
no no no.
Animals have souls.
You're just soulless.
Legend holds that it was Saint Mark that brought the 'Truth' to Egypt in the 1st. century and now the religion of death reigns. One in which Obama so glorifies, and one in which America must fight .http://www.amazon.com/The-Coming-True-Story-Horror/dp/1469955652/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346171053&sr=8-1&keywords=the+coming+a+true+story+of+horror
Who's the insensitive idiot just about Jerry? Yes,it's Schlockmoron.
Schlomotion, you are the most insulting idiot I've come accross today. Have a terrible day!!
Mike, I think he's best ignored. Schlomotion constipation is only here to wind us up. Mind you, he's sunk to new depths today.
Schlomotion you are just jealous of Brigitte. if we all knew as much as she does they would not one muslim in the USA they would have to denounce islam. in all forms. but we have a nut job in our White House. who is a muslim. and he has lied to the AMERICAN PEOPLE. he said we are not and never will be at war with islam he just doesn't know the AMERICAN PEOPLE yet. GOD gave this land to the AMERICAN PEOPLE and we are ONE NATION UNDER GOD and we will fight to keep it as ONE NATION UNDER GOD.
Tagalog's post contains a serious factual error. The Maronites are not monophysites but Catholics in full communion with the Roman and other branches of the Church.
I've been in the Democratic Party for years as a voter; and I personally don't think they care about being called Islamaphobic… I' m not voting for Obama or Romney, but voting Democratic locally… so I'm free to criticize both candidates…I think the only concern they have is to stay in power by holding onto the black Muslim Brotherhood voters; and what better way to do that then to be anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist..they call it Clinton triangulation politics..it really is quite dangerous times we live in, because they (Obamabots) are literally using the Nazi playbook…. though probably a majority of Democrats don't know that the Nazis had actual tactics, that they used politically on Germans.
Maronites have full standing with the Roman Catholic Church only after 1180 A.D., around the time of the Islamic conquests in Syria that triggered the First Crusade. Before that, it is arguable that they were Monophysites. The Maronites deny it. Others say they were. I only mentioned them in passing.
Your claim that my statement about the Maronites is a "serious error" suggests that you too agree that doctrinal differences remain sensitive. Thank you for providing some buttressing for my stance.
I'm not blaming anybody. I have respect for the truth, which is neither right-wing nor left-wing.
Why are you so quick to point the finger of blame at President Obama and Sec. of State Clinton? In what way does the horrid plight of the Copts impact on the national security of the United States? Egypt is a major non-NATO ally, and has treaties with the U.S. which the U.S. is legally bound to honor, like it or not.
The problem with treaties and muslims is they had a very bad habit of ingnoring them.
Muhammad himself attacked Khaybar under the auspices of a peace treaty w/the Jewish tribe therein and Muhammad is the most perfect and holy man in islam, whose actions are to be admired and emulated.
Ladies and Gentlemen, please be patient with Schlomotion, he was in the toilet when IQs were being handed out.
I came to check how Americans reacted to this serious video. Look at some of you. Typical immature rascals. Look how fast the subject changed into squabbling childish arguments. I worked so hard to prepare this video so you can do something about the Copts. What do you do? You begin (and as usual) arguing like amateurs over side issues and changing the subject without respecting the rules in front of your eye (#2. Stay on Topic) .
You complain and bicker about each other and forget the subject at hand. The Copts.
One man or woman can make all the difference. One person can move the mountains if they so much desired to do it. Where is your faith? Perhaps you can learn a thing or two from the Copts.
Well said, I am all but despairing, but sometimes these folk say such outrageous things that one cannot help but comment, and then before you know it, it has degenerated into a verbal streetfight. I wish everyone here could just ignore the people that are disrupting the discussion. DON"T FEED THE TROLLS PEOPLE, and eventually they will get tired and leave. And to you awful nasty people, please stop it, if you disagree with us let's discuss, there is no need for this ugliness and venom. The world is on fire and all we do is bicker and bite at each other like small children. Enough already, please guys, we need to come together to heal the world. This is not helping!
Exactly. Just ignore them.
We aren't all Americans, but we are all culpable in this issue!
It is unbelievable that the discussion immediately goes into matters of doctrine. Good grief people. There's an enemy out there! You feel closer to Islam than Orthodoxy? Are you perhaps fundamentalist Christians–not quite your type of Christian, I don't care what happens. Greatly saddened.
I left a note below under the name "Anne" indicating the liberal Protestants do not give a damn. I really would like to help but I don't know what I can do.
I guess your coming to check was all in vain. Those pesky people who ask questions and who give answers. Dang.
Walid, I didn't realize you had made the video. Thank you so very much. The video is indeed, an appeal to the world to help the severely persecuted Christian Copts. God help them!
In the comments section of an article on the British Freedom website: http://britishfreedom.org/what-makes-a-pretty-gir…
I posted your video.
British Freedom and the other Freedom Parties in Europe, and the Defense Leagues in Europe and the EDL (English Defece League) in England, are Europe and Britain's last great hope. In Britain, the Brits are persecuted if they protest against the Islamization of Britain and protest against sharia.
One of the top leaders in both EDL and British Freedom, Kevin Carroll: The government is facilitating the Islamification of this country! It’s got to stop! You’ve got to defend Christianity at all costs! At all costs. Defend Christianity at every turn! At every possible chance, defend Christianity!
EDL Dewsbury 30/06/12 – Kevin Carroll Speech http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkXE0W2Hzvc
Watching how the Copts are treated in their own homeland is just disgusting.
I tried to bring up the subject of the Copts in Dec 2011 on the forum of the United Church of Canada (just passed a boycott of Israeli goods from the West Bank). Anyway, I got zero sympathy but questions as to why they should care about them anymore than any other group. Some were quite rude.
It’s called Wondercafe. Can be found easily from Google. No account required to read.
Oy Anne as I said, we despair!
So what's your recommendation for the rest of the world to deal with the plight of the Copts?
Diplomatic pressure would be good. Western governments issuing official statements.
Maybe offer them refugee status in the USA — instead of offering it to Somali islamofascists. Maybe cut off all military sales to Egyptistan, maybe cut off their free foreign aid. Maybe do something instead of nothing like the zero and Shrillery are doing.
ARM them and get bloody involved! Give time and money to train and arm the Copts.
Canada didn't want to get deeply involved in World War II, for heaven's sake. Every trooper in the Canadian military forces who went overseas to fight the Big One did so strictly on a volunteer basis, so I wouldn't get too excited about the failure of Canada to get exercised about the overseas plight of Egyptian Christians and their Muslim oppressors. Actually, I'm kinda partial to the idea of sending our nation's fighting forces overseas solely on a volunteer basis.
Walid…What else can we do besides pray? Looks like the Copts are in serious danger and so are the rest of the Christians in the M.E. and it won't be long before we're in danger over here. We need a great revival! Love your books and TV interviews.
This will not be solved by prayers, but money and force of arms.
U.S. leaders worked to oust U.S. ally, moderate Mubarak, in order to bring to power U.S. leaders big favorites, the Muslim Brotherhood, whose stated goal is the DESTRUCTION of civilization and global Islamic conquest.
Since Mubarak's ouster, the attacks on Christians, their homes, businesses and churches has increased enormously and so has the kidnappings, rapes and violent conversion to Islam of young Christian girls. Thousands of young Christian girls have been kidnapped by Muslims. The police cooperate.
THERE IS NO ONE TO HELP THE CHRISTIANS!
Not one more dollar to cruel, infidel-hater Egypt!
Because non-Muslims don’t worship the deity Muslims call Allah, terrible suffering; physical, mental and emotional agony is perpetrated by Muslims on non-Muslims. The pain is beyond bearing for the Christian parents of their precious daughters who have been kidnapped by merciless Muslims.
The video made me weep.
A comment by an Egyptian Christian Copt, underneath the video:
“OUR WOMEN ARE TO BE ENSLAVED IN ISLAM OUR MEN ARE TO BE KILLED AND AMERICA RECEIVES MILLIONS OF ISLAMISTS WITH OPEN ARM AND REFUSE TO GIVE US ASYLUM.”
The U.S. government has given and continues to give many billions of dollars to Egypt. Besides holding joint military training with Egyptian troops regularly and providing Egypt with lots of the latest military equipment. In the future, Egypt will attack Israel using U.S. military training and U.S. equipment.
Egypt, before the "Arab Spring" (nobody gave much insightful thought to THAT denomination, did they?), was a Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA), with whom the United States has various defense-oriented treaties. After the Arab Spring, it still is.
The U.S. is bound by law to honor its obligations under those treaties. To refuse to honor them may -arguably- be a morally defensible legal lapse, but if it were to happen, it would affect the willingness of other nations to deal with the U.S.
I bet the U.S. military training and the U.S. equipment that Israel has, is superior to that which we've provided to Egypt. And the Israelis are surely better equipped and trained to use it.
FWIW – I think the posts on doctrine are intended to answer “How did non-Copts originally come to view Copts as ‘not part of us’?” This is very different from answering “Why don’t people care about Copts today?”
The question that I have is “What can an American Evangelical do to help?” and even more “What would those who are suffering want me to do?”
FWIW – I think the posts on doctrine are intended to answer "How did non-Copts originally come to view Copts as 'not part of us'?" This is very different from answering "Why don't people care about Copts today?"
The question that I have is "What can an American Evangelical do to help?" and even more "What would those who are suffering want me to do?"
Animals like Andy Choudary and slick liars like Ibrahim Hooper have the audacity to sell their trash to Western viewers with a straight face.
The only reason they haven't been totally exposed is because the media is run mostly by false prophets.
For those in the United States who are appalled at the Egyptian situation in which the Copts are suffering severe persecution; we can raise awareness of what is going on in Egypt through facebook, the media, our churches; and also contact our Congressmen and senators to try to put a halt to the US assisting groups who want "regime changes" largely to persecute the Jew and the Christian minority…… also give financial assistance to groups out there who are assisting the persecuted Christian minority in the Middle East/AFrica.
When the Egyptian Jews were being persecuted and forced to flee Egypt en masse what kind of help, support or even sympathy did they get from those "good Christian" Copts?
To paraphrase that old saying – First they came for the Jews. Then they came for —-. You fill it in.
Um, what choice did the Copts have? They're a persecuted minority living in an islamofascist state. It's nice to sit in our living room, here in the USA and indict others for not going head-to-head w/islamofascism but it's a more difficult proposition when you might be thrown in prison or disappeared for doing so in an islamofascist state. The teaching of the Coptic language has long been outlawed in islamofascist Egypt.
You're a hate filled bigot that makes comments that deserve to be shredded.
So, why did you declare jihad to murder and burn an entire town of Christians due to mere rumors? That's something you defend to this day.
You're just a 'wee' little man.
Oh come on wee, you small little man.
Your hatred blinds you. Can you show any violence is due to the teachings of Christ? You can't and that's why your lame attacks on Christianity fail. What's wrong you don't R here to pretend you're reasonable? You poor little lonely hate filled bigot you….
Maybe you should face facts. The religion you cover for (islam) is the very essence of the things you blame on Christianity.
I don't have to attack you wee, you small little man.
I just expose your hate. And why should I tell you about my relationship to Christ? I'm told not to throw pearls to swing and you're a pig.
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