Genocidal Liberalism: The University’s Jihad Against Israel & Jews

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Editor’s note: The interview below is with Dr. Richard Cravatts, the author of Genocidal Liberalism: The University’s Jihad Against Israel & Jews, a new book published by the David Horowitz Freedom Center. To order a copy, click here.

Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Dr. Richard Cravatts, a Professor of Practice and Director of the Master’s Program in Communications Management at the Simmons College School of Management. He is President of Scholars for Peace in the Middle East, a grassroots community of over 50,000 academics on more than 3500 campuses worldwide, and a board member of the Journal for the Study of Antisemitism, the Investigative Taskforce on Campus Anti-Semitism, and the Louis D. Brandeis Center for Human Rights Under Law. He is also the author of the new book, Genocidal Liberalism: The University’s Jihad Against Israel & Jews (David Horowitz Freedom Center).

FP: Richard Cravatts, welcome to Frontpage Interview.

Illuminate for us the jihad against Jews and Israel on the American campus.

What is the extent to which the campus Left is allied with jihadist elements, Muslim student associations, and funded by Saudi money? Why do you think they have the formed this “unholy alliance”?

Cravatts: Many of us have been concerned for some time with the relentless, deceptive, and dangerous attacks against Israel emanating from college campuses, particularly because academia was always thought to be a place where honesty debate and scholarly inquiry could flourish. But at least with regard to Israel, that no longer is the case. In fact, what I characterize as an intellectual jihad against Israel is taking place right now on campuses everywhere, characterized by such vile  contortions of history and fact, and driven by such moral imbecility and double standards on the part of  its adherents, that is has few parallels as a campus movement.  It involves, first, a rapturous adherence to a cult of “Palestinianism,” in which seeking social justice for the ever-suffering Palestinians has become the primary intellectual mission of many liberals who deride Western values and democratic states, and a convenient cause for many in the Arab world for whom the Palestinians have become a club to use against Israel and Jews. On campuses, this has evolved into a dangerous “unholy alliance” between Islamists with a specific agenda to dilute Western institutions, and leftists who, in accommodating radical Islam, not only enable what Robert Spencer has called a “stealth jihad,” but help facilitate it.

On campuses, the stealth jihad is led by the Muslin Student Association, an off-shoot of the Muslim Brotherhood whose 600 chapters serve as command centers for inviting guest speakers with incendiary rhetoric, annual hate-fests during which Israel and Jews are libeled, slandered, and demonized, shouting down or preventing speeches by pro-Israel, anti-jihad speakers, and other instances extremist behavior and destructive narratives about the Israel/Palestinian debate. This alliance between jihadists and Leftists, who ordinarily share little in common, ideologically, serves both sides well: Muslim students who wish to deflect the pathologies of Palestinian cause savor being able to assign the West’s worst appellation of ‘racist’ to Israel, and campus liberals at the same time fulfill their Marxist dreams of trying to envision and help create what Ruth Wisse of Harvard called the “ideal of the egalitarian state,” something that the Left had hoped that Communism would create, but which ultimately failed to be established anywhere and in the pursuit of which some 100 million souls perished during the twentieth century.

And petro-dollars have helped to lubricate this stealth jihad. Jay P. Greene, a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute , noted that “Gulf Arabs gave a total of $88 million to 14 U.S. universities between 1995” and today. What does all that largesse buy? For one thing, academic recipients are going to shy away from any critical investigation of the donor’s own political system, autocratic rule, or abuse in the social and civil rights of the citizens of those oil-rich but often economically- and socially-backward countries. Though many of the funded centers, such as Georgetown’s, are established with the stated intention of helping to “build bridges” between the Christian West and Islam for the purpose of enhancing mutual understanding, in practice the centers end up serving as beachheads where Arab states can attempt to influence scholarship and indoctrinate a new generation of scholars.

FP: What damage does the campus Left cause because of its ideological attacks on Israel as a racist, apartheid state, and how it reinforces other items in the leftist agenda (i.e. attacks on “colonialism” and political correctness, etc.)?

Cravatts: Canadian MP Irwin Cotler has said that the most serious crime one could be accused of in the twentieth century was racism and Nazism, and it’s interesting that both of those terms are now used promiscuously against Israel on campuses around the world. The academic enemies of Israel have created a false narrative in which the “colored”, indigenous Palestinians have been dispossessed by occupying “white” European Jews with no real connection to Israel, that the presence of Jews in the Palestine is yet another indication of colonialism, imperialism, militarism, and Nazi-like brutality.  The frequent condemnations, on and off campus, that Zionism is equivalent to racism and that Israel is an “apartheid” country (a charge given credence by such luminaries as former President Jimmy Carter, among others), is very purposeful, because if it can be asserted, over and over, that Israel is a racist state, that it was built on stolen land, and that it continues to exist in violation of international human rights and at the expense of the Palestinian  victims, it can legitimately be attacked, vilified, and even dismantled for its sin of racism.

What you yourself, Jamie, have identified as the  “Left’s sacred cow of multiculturalism.” has also meant that faculty as well as students have been seeped in an ideology which refuses to demarcate any differences between a democratic state struggling to protect itself and aggressive, genocidal foes who wish to destroy it with their unending assaults. For the multiculturalist Left, the moral strengths of the two parties are equivalent, even though the jihadist foes of Israel, for example, have waged an unending struggle with the stated aim of obliterating the Jewish state through the murder of Jews.

Thus, this inclination to worship multiculturalism forces liberals to make excuses for those cultures which have obvious, often irredeemable, moral defects, such as the Islamist foes who currently threaten Israel and the West. As commonly happens when liberals appraise the relative merits of their own countries and others, one set of expectations are used to measure Third-world countries and their leaders, and a totally different, far more stringent (if not unreasonable) set is used when evaluating the behavior and values of the United States, the EU, or Israel.  This cynical, nearly hypocritical, view has meant that the Left frequently denounces Western democracies as imperialistic, racist, militaristic oppressors, precisely because they wish them to evolve to a purer, newly-structured society and feel that they have the collective insight and moral strength to effect this change as they strive for social justice.

The danger in all of this, of course, is the campus enemies of Israel and the West, by excusing terror and Islamism at the same time they criticize the West’s attempts to protect itself, emboldens are enemies, and cast Israel—and its supporters—as the villain and the actual obstacle to world peace.

FP: Which are the guiltiest universities in terms of the jihad against Jews and Israel on the American campus? Can you tell us a story or two that will help reflect this dark phenomenon?

Cravatts: The situation on California campuses with regard to anti-Israelism, and even raw anti-Semitism, continues to grow in intensity and frequency, and, while it may well represent some of the more egregious examples of Israel demonization occurring anywhere today, in many ways it reflects some of the persistent and alarming issues seen elsewhere. In fact, observers of out of control anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic activity on campuses consider California’s universities to be the veritable ground zero of such vitriol, with particularly troubling and persistent problems of radical student groups, venom-spewing guest speakers, annual hate-fests targeting Israel and Jewish students, and a pervasive mood on campus in which Jewish students and other pro-Israel faculty and students experienced visceral and real “harassment, intimidation and discrimination,” as a 2004 Zionist Organization of America’s complaint to the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights described the situation on one campus, the University of California at Irvine.

At UC-Irvine, anti-Israel events inevitably devolve solely into hate-fests against Israel, with condemnations, blood libels, conspiracy theories, Nazi imagery, anti-Semitic ravings, physical attacks on Jewish students, and a visceral loathing of Zionism, Judaism, and the Jewish state. There is no talk of Palestinian terrorism, the Arab’s intractability in refusing many offers of Palestinian statehood, or the genocidal impulses from a sea of jihadist foes that have threatened the Jewish state from its birth, which themselves have necessitated the much-maligned security wall, checkpoints, and even occupation. Only Israel’s sins are discussed, and all of the blame for the region’s various social dysfunctions is laid at its feet. That is clearly the Muslim Student Union’s intention and purpose in sponsoring their myriad events—vilifying Israel and Jews—not to support the Palestinians and the rhetoric of their invited guest speakers confirms that. Amir-Abdel Malik-Ali, for instance, former Nation of Islam member, convert to Islam, and cheerleader for Hamas and Hezbollah, has been a ubiquitous, poisonous presence on the Irvine campus who never hesitates to castigate Israel, Zionists, Jewish power, and Jews themselves as he weaves incoherent, hallucinatory conspiracies about the Middle East and the West. Speaking from a podium with a banner reading “Israel, the 4th Reich” in May 2006, Malik-Ali referred to Jews as “new Nazis” and “a bunch of straight-up punks.”  “The truth of the matter is your days are numbered,” he admonished Jews everywhere. “We will fight you. We will fight you until we are either martyred or until we are victorious.”  Another odious guest speaker who regularly makes appearances on the MSA hate-fest circuit is Muhammad al-Asi, an anti-Semitic, anti-America Muslim activist from Washington, DC who has written, among other notorious ideas, that “The Israeli Zionist [is] the true and legitimate object of liquidation,” the type of statement that, if it was made on campus against any group of people other than Jews, would be denounced as hate speech.

Similarly, on the San Francisco State University campus the General Union of Palestinian Students have continually been at the center of a succession of riots, protests, and anti-Israel, anti-American hate-fests and counter-protests at which radical speakers regularly, and with unbridled invective, denounce and demonize Jews, Zionists, Israel, Republicans, and America. Most notorious was the Muslim student-sponsored, pro-Palestinian April 2002 demonstration that included grotesque flyers and posters depicting a dead Palestinian baby on a soup-can label imprinted with the words “Palestinian Children Meat, slaughtered according to Jewish rites under American license,” echoing the centuries-old blood libel of European anti-Semitism that accused Jews of murdering Gentile children and using their blood to bake matzos—a slander that has, not surprisingly, currently gained credence in the Arab world.   Not content only to mount their own vile protests against Zionism, Jews, and Israel, the pro-Palestinian student groups took it upon themselves the following month to disrupt a vigil for Holocaust Remembrance Day where some 30 Jewish students who were reciting the Mourners’ Kaddish—the Jewish prayer for the dead—were shouted down by protesters who countered with grisly prayers in memory of Palestinian suicide bombers. The pro-Palestinian counter-demonstrators, armed with whistles and bull horns, physically assaulted the Jewish students, spat on them, and screamed such charming epithets as “Too bad Hitler didn’t finish the job,” “Get out or we will kill you,” “F**k the Jews,” “Die racist pigs,” and “Go back to Russia, Jews.”  The violence escalated to the extent that San Francisco police officers finally had to usher the Jewish students to safety off campus. This is not merely “criticism of Israel,” as the perpetrators of this invective regularly claim; it is raw, venomous hatred, anti-Semitism masquerading as a discussion about politics.

FP: What is the manner in which scholarship—particularly in departments of Middle East studies—has been distorted and degraded by anti-Israel, anti-Western bias on the part of radical faculty?

Cravatts:  The most serious aspect of the state of Middle East studies is that faculty members in these highly-politicized departments regularly are consistent in their rabid ideological approaches to assessing the contemporary Middle East, and particularly when it comes to their topic of choice, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Critics like Martin Kramer have long observed how whole departments, with Columbia’s being a prime example, have balkanized into single-minded academic enterprises defined by blatant antipathies for Israel, the United States, and the West, and are regularly oblivious to the many pathologies and endemic civil and social ills of the Arab world. The lingering influence of Edward Said’s concept of Orientalism has meant that academic departments of Middle East studies have become closed societies, where myopic mandarins, heavily imbued with postcolonial suspicions, create a world-view of Islam, the Arab world, and particularly of Israel and the Palestinians, that is at odds with how other scholars—with less ideological baggage—view the same facts on the ground.

Middle East studies have also been crippled with a devotion to Edward Said’s “Orientalism,” the notion that scholars of European descent cannot fully accept or appreciate the cultures of Third-world colored people; Orientalism and post-colonial theory are convenient not only to blame Western hegemony for suppressing and dominating the Islamic world, but also, for  exculpating Middle Eastern countries from responsibility for their cultural pathologies and radical Islamic impulses. Imperialism, colonialism, and racism are the root causes, according to the mandarins of Middle East studies, not the failure of many Arab states to confront modernity and construct civil societies.

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  • rosross

    Israel and her supporters look for reasons for criticism of Israel and her behaviour instead of facing the reality which is clear to the rest of the world – the criticisms are valid and factual and sourced in Israel's behaviour as a theocratic religious and racist State and as an occupier, coloniser and regional bully. You may talk around it all you like but denial and delusion lead not to truth but to insanity.

    • Zionista

      learn history dummy – Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people. you are a typical Jew hater – one who SINGLES OUT the one Jewish state for demonization. Shame on you!!

    • stern

      Clearly, you did not read the article before jumping in with your boilerplate accusations. You are either a brainwashed useful idiot, or a born and bred enemy of everything Western and good in the world. Go away. You will find yourself feeling far more comfortable on electronic intifada than here, where people actually do know the real history and actually can argue against your bigotry.

      • Hannah

        Zionists is a brainwashed "useful idiot"no doubt about it, as so ill-informed. Probably young & gullible as the Hitler- jugend were. Goebells always said, tell a lie long enough, it will be believed.Nothing has changed sadly .
        Israel , Zionista & friends, have shown no signs whatsoever of colonising other lands around them . Look how small they are as it is compared to the sprawling Arab lands surrounding them ! In fact didn't 8.500. Israeli's get thrown out of their beautiful homes in Gaza in 2005 to please the US , didn't help of course. Everything Israel does is self defense
        and geared towards peace. Jordan is the "Palestinian" land carved out of ancient Israel by the British .Zionista should look up the terms of peace offered to Arafat by Israel with Clinton and Ross.Ross became an Israel supporter then because he thought Arafat was crazy not accepting the terms offered to him by Israel.Arafat could not accept peace terms of course as his own would have killed him as they did Sadat .He as all Arab leaders said one thing in Arabic and another to the West. Today same tactics. Boring, Zionista , very boring, predictable,& embarrassing.Please learn something factual

        • aspacia

          Hannah, I am having difficulty understanding what it is your are trying to state. Zionista is a Zionist, and clear as a bell. You, in contrast, appear to babble.

    • mrbean

      It real simple rosross. When confronted with a civilized and relatively free society (Israel) and savage theocracies built around the cult of Islam (all the Arab Muslim states and thrir proxy terrorists), one sides with the civilized society and not the Muslim savages. Muslim Arabs and their proxy terrorists have chosen the rules of the game. Jews should let them know in no uncertain terms what "Never Again" means. As for the Palestinian Muslim terrorists, it is a matter of record that Palestinians strap munitions on their own women and children and send them out on homicide-suicide missions to murder other innocent Jewish women and children in markets, restuarants, on school buses, and in their homes. The Palestinians in their own words and by their actions are committed to the genocide of the Jewish people and the destruction of Israel, therefore, have foreited their rights to even exist at all let alone be given a UN and US sanctioned terrorist state.

    • BS77

      Another fully indoctrinated leftist brainwash case here folks….listen, Israel is NOT the problem in the middle east….Israel has one thousandth the land area of the surrounding hostile nations….Jews/Israelis are outnumbered by about 100-1 by the terrorists and their supporters….and yet the idiotic propaganda goes on and on about apartheid, aggressiveness, occupation blah blah blah………Get educated with the facts, not the leftist anti Israeli groupthink.

    • UCSPanther

      Save your spam/propaganda for someone who cares, and you won't find it here.

      You just wasted your time.

    • aspacia

      rosross, why not criticize the vast and intolerant Muslim majority ME lands? Israel must remain on the West Bank because if she withdraws rockets will rain into Israel, just like what happened with the Gaza evacuation.

      You mention theocracy, but not the fact that Israel is secular and allows people of all faiths to freely practice their faith. Now, look at the ME and what is happening to the Copts?

      What about the huge moral failure occurring in the entire oil rich ME. Israel has no real resources except her peoples hard work and creativity. Now compare the vast Arab states, their lack of infrastructure, and intolerance to Israel.

      No rosross, read some valid history, not the lies spewed from the left and the ME Studies professors like Joseph Massad.

    • Gonzaga

      Your formulation is strikingly similar to the following: http://www.rense.com/general80/whj.htm

      Oft Jew baiters say "you Jews need to look at what YOU are doing to inspire such violence against you." Check this great article: http://www.internetjournalofcriminology.com/Anti-

      Nothing Jews can do will end a tendency to conquer the planet that does not exist. As Caprilles found out in Venezuela, Jewish ancestry suffices as evidence of a tendency to conquer the world. Ultimately, what appear to want to do is expel Jews from Israel, as Ms. Helen Thomas wishes. If so, my request is for you & all like minded individuals to leave the United States. The bulk of the planet is Judenrein.

      • rosross

        Gonzaga,
        Such claims run counter to reality. Most Jews do not live in Israel. Most Jews do not want to live in Israel. Most followers of Judaism live happily and peacefully in dozens of nations around the world – alongside followers of other religions and atheists and agnostics no doubt. Some 100,000 Jews are Iranian and consistently refuse Israeli pleas to emigrate.
        Let's not tar followers of Judaism with Israel's brush. The criticisms are made of Israel and true, those responsible for the war crimes and human rights abuses are followers of Judaism but you cannot blame all members of a religion for the acts of some. The criticisms are made of Israel and sadly for the religion, because the actions are purportedly done in the name of Judaism, it gives the religion and its followers a bad name.
        If there were anti-Jewish sentiment as you suggest then jews around the world would be desperate to move to Israel. They are not. Quite the opposite. And many young Israelis are emigrating to other countries where they feel safer.
        Trying to play racist cards doesn't work – the world does not want Jews expelled from anywhere – it doesn't want anyone expelled from anywhere but it will not support an apartheid State and it will not support the continued occupation and colonisation of Palestine. The longer you ignore that reality and seek to play games crying anti-semitism, the more certainly you doom Israel.

  • rosross

    Zionista, I made the comment I did because I know my history – I also know religions don't have homelands, ancestral or otherwise. Judaism is a religion – no Judaism no Jews. I hate no religions and no followers of religions I just oppose occupation and colonisation.
    A Jewish state, as in a religiously defined state is a theocracy and has no place in a civilized, democratic world just as Islamic States have no place and are backward.
    More to the point, Israel cannot be a Jewish state without being an apartheid state because a significant number of Israelis are not Jewish. Even more to the point, given that most followers of Judaism do not live in Israel and do not want to but are citizens of nations around the world, including I might add Iran, it is ridiculous to suggest that Jews need or want a State of their own.
    I don't single out Israel for demonizations – the actions of Israel demonise the State. You cannot be an occupier and coloniser in the modern age, and attack your neighbours at whim, and flout international law, UN Resolutions as you carry out human rights abuses and war crimes and not expect to be criticised.
    I happen to want Israel to survive. The odds are not good but that is what I would like to see. As a historically recent coloniser it must either do what all other colonisers, including the US have done, establish one state with equal rights for all regardless of religion or negotiate legitimate borders for itself with the indigenous Palestinians and allow the creation of two states. It is probably too late for the latter but these are the only two options. The Apartheid state cannot last and neither can the occupation.

    • reader

      "A Jewish state, as in a religiously defined state is a theocracy and has no place in a civilized, democratic world just as Islamic States have no place and are backward."

      Not only you don't know history, you don't know the present. Israel is not a theocracy, it's a secular democratic state with European style parliamentary government. Most of the surrounding muslim countries are theocracies, and ALL of them are dictatorships and human rights abusers of the worst kind. Yet, there's no outcry about any of it, unless of course, like in the case of Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, there's a need to go from bad to worse. That's when the left jumps in.

      • rosross

        What Israel says it is and what it is and what it wants to be are different things. It claims to be a democratic state but it wants to be a religiously defined state – theocracy. It claims to be democratic and yet is working to establish and apartheid state. As to dictators, look, Israel supporters do this all the time, they compare Israel to non-democracies and tyrannies and you can't do that.
        You have to compare apples with apples. Compare Israel to other democracies and she looks like a tyranny. Anyone looks good compared to the worst of tyrannies but that is not how it should be done. Israel is judged by the bar she has set herself, not by the lowest bar on the planet.

        • stern

          Let's see:
          US (democracy): 1 citizen, 1 vote; freedom of religion; freedom of speech; freedom of association; regular elections; equal rights for all; due process; independent judiciary etc. etc.

          Israel: 1 citizen, 1 vote, freedom of religion; freedom of speech; freedom of association; regular elections; equal rights for all; due process; independent judiciary etc. etc.

          Apples to apples, yes?

          See, even when I don't engage in ad hominen attacks, you still come out looking like an idiot.

        • reader

          This is all complete tripe to the last word. The wool cloth has come off, never mind the deliberate tone. Pure Jew hating disguised in second rate demagoguery.

        • ziontruth

          "Compare Israel to other democracies and…"

          It is not your business to compare Israel, or to tell it to do anything. This is blatant intervention in another state's affairs.

          "Israel is judged by the bar she has set herself, not by the lowest bar on the planet."

          Israel is not judged, but you are. Israel is not on trial, her enemies are. Israel is not the guilty party, her detractors are.

        • Libertyman

          I can worship my God in Israel… something the Secular Religionists don't want me to do in this country.

          Funny you side with the genocidal maniacs against Israel, that slaughtered 2 to 2.5 million Christians in the Sudan.

          How comforting it is to know there are sensible folk like you around Mr Bigot.

        • aspacia

          rosross, not it does not want a theocracy, and most of its citizens would be against such a state. You have zero idea of what Israel wants, nor what the majority of its citizens want.

          The security wall and check points were established, and are working, to prevent suicide attacks. This is why the bs term apartheid came into being; these measure prevent Muslims from murdering Jews, and every Jew is a legitimate target for the Muslims.

          Look to the vast ME for tyrannies, not Israel. Remember, she has no death penalty as the ME does and remember, Israel does not condone honor murder as the vast ME does.

          rosross, you do not know the facts. Read both sides of the issues objectively. According to Muslims Jerusalem was built by them, and not Jews regardless of the fact that Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Qu'ran, but is mentioned several hundred times in the Torah. Really pay attention to the lies stemming from these violent, irrational people for a full understanding of what the West is facing.

    • ziontruth

      "Judaism is a religion"

      Correct, but being Jewish is belonging to a nation.

      "no Judaism no Jews."

      Wrong. In contrast to being a Christian (for example), which is dependent on adhering to the Christian religion, a Jew is a Jew even if not religiously observant. That is, although Judaism holds that all Jews must be religiously observant, it does not hold that a Jew ceases to be a Jew because he or she does not practice the religion.

      Anyone born to a Jewish mother or having undergone conversion according to the requirements of Jewish Law is a Jew, and that is irrevocable.

      "I just oppose occupation and colonisation."

      Then you should oppose the Arab occupation and colonization of the Land of Israel, the territory of the Jewish nation.

      "More to the point, Israel cannot be a Jewish state without being an apartheid state because a significant number of Israelis are not Jewish."

      Then you just called every proper nation-state an apartheid state. Whether you realize this or not, this is the treasonous Marxist ideology of multiculturalism, which denies nations their right to exclusive sanctuary within their nation-states.

      "…the actions of Israel demonise the State."

      You anti-Zionists do not condemn mere actions of the Jewish State, but its very being. That is illegitimate. Anti-Zionism is illegitimate and has no right to exist.

      "You cannot be an occupier and coloniser in the modern age, and attack your neighbours at whim,…"

      The Arab imperialist enemies of the Jewish State need your message. Go forth and tell it to them.

      "I happen to want Israel to survive."

      Then it's Islamic imperialism you should be focusing on, not Israel's non-existent "crimes."

      "As a historically recent coloniser…"

      It is by definition impossible for Jews to be colonizers in Palestine, for they are the one and only true Palestinian nation, and Palestine is their indigenous territory. It is the Arabs who are the colonists in Palestine.

      "…establish one state with equal rights for all…"

      Ask the former Yugoslavs how it worked out. Or the Lebanese. Or the Sudanese. Or the Hutus and Tutsis. I could go on, but that's the idea.

      "…the indigenous Palestinians…"

      ..are the Jews and none other. Arab settler-colonist invader land-thieves are not Palestinians by any stretch, and have no legitimate claim to Palestine. Only the Jews have a right to Palestine.

      "The Apartheid state cannot last and neither can the occupation."

      Agreed. The only option for both peace and justice is for all Arab colonists to evacuate their illegal holdings in Palestine in favor of the indigenous Palestinians, the Jews.

      • stern

        ziontruth, thank you for this excellent post.

      • aspacia

        BRAVO ZIONTRUTH, BRAVO!

      • rosross

        Ziontruth,
        The tragedy for Israel is that fantasy will destroy it. No-one cares if a few followers of a particular religion lived somewhere a few thousand years ago along with followers of other religions I might add. If religions did have homelands, which of course they don't, then the Jewish homeland would be Iraq or Egypt, not Palestine for Palestine would be the Christian homeland. But luckily religions don't have land rights so the fact that there were practising Jews living in Palestine millenia ago confers no rights on followers of the religion, whether Jews by birth or conversion today.

        Whatever you believe, international law does not confer any legal right to land because of religion so Jews have absolutely no rights to Palestine.

        Israelis however, as members of a colonising state do have rights in the same way that other nations founded through colonisation have rights. The Israeli state has a right to exist but not as an occupier, not as an apartheid state and not through continued colonisation. The only way Israel can establish its ability to exist and its right is to either do what everyone else has done, establish one secular state with equal rights for all by annexing Palestine (that beyond the UN mandate which is to date the only possibly legal border for Israel) or by negotiating with the Palestinians for final borders for an Israeli state alongside a Palestinian state – the latter having exactly the same rights, freedoms and autonomy as Israel.
        Sadly your view can only destroy Israel. Israel came into existence because of world opinion and it can leave it for the same reason. Judaism is a tiny religion in world terms – insignificant in terms of numbers – most people in the world don't believe what you believe and put no credence in religious dogma which asserts rights to someone else's land – what Jews and Israelis believe is ultimately irrelevant. As irrelevant as the beliefs of the Palestinians in 1947 as they watched the illegal and immoral partition of their land. Justice will be done and the Palestinians have justice, time and numbers on their side…. if you really care about Israel then join the fight for negotiations and ensure the survival of Israel through negotiating legitimate borders.
        It is impossible to drive all the Palestinians out or kill them – if Israel even tried there would be a one state solution in an instant and the millions of Palestinians living in refugee camps would come back to their homeland and would still constitute a majority; neither can you maintain an apartheid State – South Africa was richer, stronger and more powerful than Israel and it failed; neither can you keep the Palestinians under occupation,imprisoned in their own land – the boycotts and sanctions brought South Africa down and they will bring Israel down – more to the point, the weapon of the future will be technological and hackers will disable Israel time and again until it comes to its senses.
        To that end the this colonial war is over – all Israel can do is make the best of the mess it has created and it will need the help of all those who purport to support it to do so. Stop wasting time on propaganda which has no impact on world opinion and work for justice and a secure and legitimate Israel.

    • zionista

      I see from your spelling you're from the UK – a part of the world brewing with Jew hatred while groveling to your growing muslim populations. Why not leave your socialist cradle to grave entitlement comfort and spend a few weeks in gaza or the west bank – but you better not be gay or practice a religion other than islam because you just might wind up dead.

      • aspacia

        True, 40 British officers outlined the attack strategies for the 5 Arab armies. Why? Because the Stern Gang executed two British officers after a number of Jews were executed.

    • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

      There is no apartheid, unless you suggest that Israel take the wall down, bow down and allow themselves to be blown up.
      My suggestion to you is to move to Gaza.
      Mansions are there, malls, marketplaces.
      "Palestine" is not a state, there is no place called "Palestine" unless one lives in TX

    • aspacia

      Claim 1: Colonization is a fallacy. The ME was artificially carved after WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire. That is, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Iraq, TransJordan were all artificially created and controlled by the British and French. European Jews started returning to Israel around 1870 and the Dreyfuss Affair, long before these artificial boundaries were created and the land was purchased by Jews.

      After WWII the UK and France withdrew from many of its colonial enterprises because neither could afford maintaining their empires. During this time, Israel was recognized by the UN. The vast ME refused to recognize international law and launched 5 armies against the tiny nascent state Israel. Vastly outnumbered and outgunned, Israel won, and the Muslim were humiliated and have sought retribution every since.

      There is the Islamic state of Iran and Saudi Arabia and many other, but you complain about a tiny resource dearth Jewish state which was created after 2 millennium of pogoms, exterminations, discrimination and humiliations. The problem is that whatever Jews did to assimilate, intermarry, etc., they were still targeted by ignorant individuals. Frankly, they need a homeland that they control to protect themselves.

      There are approximately 20,000 Iranian Jews in Iran, down from nearly 300,000. who are called Iranian Jews in the Islamic Iranian state. This fact cause your claim: "More to the point, Israel cannot be a Jewish state without being an apartheid state because a significant number of Israelis are not Jewish." to lose any sense of credibility. Every Israeli, including Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, and atheists, have the same rights and obligations.

      Read some history about the continual persecution of Jews for 2,000 years, and restate your incredibly ignorant claim: "it is ridiculous to suggest that Jews need or want a State of their own. "

      Israel is not a colonizer and it is the vast, oil rich, intolerant Muslim majority state that flout international law.

      Why on earth does the world need another Muslim majority state. The Muslims should absorb their brethren, like Israel did, and still does, along with other refugees who are shot by Muslim/Arabs trying to flee to Israel. Here is a link to some facts about what Arabs do to their brethren: http://republicaninthearts.blogspot.com/2012/01/a

      LONG LIVE ISRAEL

      A Deist, Feminist, Goy, Zionist

    • Gonzaga

      Race implies restrictive definition by heritable characteristics; ability to change, such as shaving one's head, to avert negative consequences implies lack of racism. Religious intolerance of the Spanish Inquisition became racist only after limpeza de sangua was accepted.

      Objections to Jewish immigration preferences are moot for converts. These persons will render you fully Jewish: http://www.convert.org/ Why not do this today?

  • rosross

    Stern, I am not sure if you are talking to Zionista or to me but it really does not matter. When you resort to abuse and name-calling it reflects on you and merely suggests you have no real argument. Anyone who can make a case has no need for such tactics.
    If you did mean Zionista I am sure they can reply for themselves. If you did mean me then yes, I read the article and responded to it as one trying to make a case for prejudice, bigotry – the word used is Jihad in order to make people think it is sourced in Islam when actually it is sourced in intelligence and integrity – against Israel and Jews when criticism of Israel today is sourced purely in its actions.
    It goes far beyond American campuses and in fact the Americans are the last to learn the reality of Israel's foundation and reality – the world at large has known and continued to learn for many years, the truth of what is done by Israel in the name of Judaism and it isn't pretty. This is why increasingly followers of Judaism distance themselves from Israel – only fanatical supporters maintain their allegiance – and this increasingly applies in the US as well.
    Israel at this point in time is considered a pariah and the greatest threat to world peace – close first or second to the US depending on polls. There is a reason for that and while supporters may deny the reason, it is the reason why Israel may not survive. It has everything to do with what Israel is and does and nothing to do with anti-semitism, prejudice, bigotry or jihads. I just wish Israel's friends would wake up and see this reality because it is the only way they can save the State. As it is, given its 'friends' Israel has no need of enemies.

    • reader

      "Israel at this point in time is considered a pariah and the greatest threat to world peace – close first or second to the US depending on polls. There is a reason for that and while supporters may deny the reason, it is the reason why Israel may not survive. It has everything to do with what Israel is and does and nothing to do with anti-semitism, prejudice, bigotry or jihads."

      This is the exact opposite of the reality. The anti-Israel propaganda has everything to do with Jew hating and jihad on the part of muslim countries, and on Jew-hating and dhimmitude on behalf of Europeans. Here' s the proof of the former – as explained by former muslim scholars themselves:
      http://www.amazon.com/Al-Yahud-Eternal-Islamic-En

    • stern

      Yes, I was talking to you. By your words, you define yourself as an anti-Semite. You completely ignore the attacks on Israel and the genocidal desires of the Arab world, and blame Israel for everything.

      In my book, that makes you utterly contemptible – and if you choose to come to this site and espouse the views you do, you had better prepare to be called out for what you are.

      • rosross

        Stern, I do not blame Israel for everything I merely hold her accountable for her actions. Anti-semitism doesn't wash when one is speaking out about human rights abuses and war crimes. I do and did the same with the illegal and immoral invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq but that does not make me anti-American.
        I don't ignore attacks on Israel I just source them in historical record. The Palestinians have been invaded, occupied and colonised in order for Israel to exist, just as the American Indians were in order for the US to come into being. And Canada, Australia, NZ, South Africa and others.
        The indigenous peoples of those countries fought back but we don't call them terrorists. Fact is if the US was doing to its indigenous people what Israel is doing to the Palestinians there would be outrage.
        I would actually like Israel to survive and in all honesty the only way it can do that is to negotiate legitimate borders for itself. It can't kill all the Palestinians, it can't drive them out, without two-states there will inevitably be one secular state and it will have a Palestinian majority.
        I happen to believe a Jewish state is as backward and non-democratic as an Islamic one is or a Christian one would be, but, if Israel negotiates borders for itself and wants that then so be it.
        as to the genocidal desires of the Arab world – you use hyperbole and propaganda. A Saudi led offer by the Arab world for peace with Israel if israel committed to a two-state solution and justice and freedom for the palestinians was rejected by Israel.
        Every attack on Israel has arisen from the immoral and probably illegal partition of Palestine in order to create the State. Sorry, but if Americans had not created one state with equal rights for all and had pushed Indians into concentration camps and bantustans, they would be on the receiving end of a resistance war.
        It is double standards of the worst kind to argue that Israel should not act as every other coloniser has done.

        • Ted G

          Is your last name Geobbels?

        • aspacia

          Yes, Israel can and should expel the Arabs from Gaza, The West Bank, and Israel proper, they are a fifth column.

          What utter nonsense to claim it can't. The vast ME expelled 651,000 Jews from its lands without compensation, why can't Israel do the same. The fact is, that it can and should.

          There will never be two states. The whole Arab goal is to destroy Israel. Why was there no call for two states in Gaza and the West Bank prior to 1967 when they were ruled by Egypt and Jordan. No, this is a ploy to destroy Israel.

    • ziontruth

      "…criticism of Israel today is sourced purely in its actions."

      You could make a good comedian. No, but criticism of Israel today is sourced in its very being. Your own posts are evidence of that—you have not criticized what Israel does but the way Israel is.

      "Israel at this point in time is considered a pariah and the greatest threat to world peace"

      Thanks to an Islam-sympathizing mainstream media largely owned by Marxists.

      "…close first or second to the US depending on polls."

      My point exactly: The treason goes deep. Long overdue is the time for finishing Sen. Joseph McCarthy's work.

      "As it is, given its 'friends' Israel has no need of enemies."

      You describe yourself very well.

    • aspacia

      ros, Stern made a valid argument that you cannot refute. Frankly, you live in the idiocy of the liberal bubble and do not realize the Islamists will target you along with all other infidels, just as they did to the Iranian Marixsts after the Shah's ouster.

      No, the world is a whore for oil, and most are lily livered liberals afraid of violent Islamists.

      The tiny state of Israel, without oil a world threat.

      As Stern said, you are a fool or just afraid, and have zero foundation in history. I do.

    • aspacia

      Ros, peruse Faith and Freedom for the facts about Islam. Read Darwish, Soebat, Hirshi and others about the violence and lies.

    • Western Canadian

      Utter and complete drivel.

    • Western Canadian

      ‘When you resort to abuse and name-calling’….. I would suggest you quite doing it.

      • Western Canadian

        Sorry. ‘quit’

  • jacob

    I refuse to shorten my comment any more and dare you to compare it with the one above….

  • rosross

    Sorry Mr Bean, your simple has no connection with reality.

    How can a society be civilized when it occupies and colonises? How can it be civilized when it discriminates against citizens who are not Jewish? How can it be civilized when it imprisons without charge and sanctions torture? How can it be civilized when it maintains the world's largest concentration camp, Gaza? How can it be civilized when it wants a theocratic state? How can it be civilized when it wants and apartheid State?

    What you call civilized and the majority of people in the world call civilized are very different things.

    Which savage theocracies are these? Lebanon is neither savage nor a theocracy and Israel attacked it, bombed it and killed thousands for no reason. Jordan? Not a democracy but then neither is Israel and it isn't a theocracy either. Saudi Arabia? Definitely a theocracy and a tyranny but armed and supported by Israel's ally the US. Iran? Yes a theocracy but one where its Jewish citizens have a place in parliament as do its Christian citizens.

    Iran by the way has attacked no-one for more than 100 years. Israel has attacked numerous nations in a mere 70 years including the Palestinians – and it still does.

    These Muslim savages would be who? Surely not the Saudis a US ally? And if you are going to cite Muslim extremists how about Jewish extremists who say it is right and proper to kill non-Jews? Death to the Arabs they chant and death to palestinians.

    Never again actually was not meant just for Jews but for everyone. Followers of Judaism along with Gypsies certainly suffered under the Nazis but the Palestinians had nothing to do with it. Now Israel does to Palestinians pretty much what Nazis did to Jews. Hypocrisy don't you think?

    Let's agree that terrorism is wrong but then you have to agree that Israel's state sanctioned terrorism, still happening by the way – palestinians get killed all the time – is to be condemned as Palestinian terrorism was. Not that we have had suicide bombing for a while. Did you know that the Zionists used terrorism to establish the State of Israel – throwing bombs into civilian areas?

    And while we are on it, Israel uses terrorism to maintain occupation and colonisation and Palestinians used it, yes, past tense, to free themselves from occupation and colonisation. The latter has some mitigating factors.

    You said: The Palestinians in their own words and by their actions are committed to the genocide of the Jewish people and the destruction of Israel,

    Utter tosh. Apart from which they don't have the power. And given that most Jews don't live in Israel and don't want to, including more than 100,000 Iranian Jews, just how are the Palestinians going to kill them all?

    You said: therefore, have foreited their rights to even exist at all let alone be given a UN and US sanctioned terrorist state.

    Are, so you sanction genocide but just for non-Jews. Interesting. Not that it matters Israel has destroyed itself. It has made a two state solution impossible and occupation and apartheid cannot continue so there will be one state solution within a few years at most and with a palestinian majority you can bet it won't be called Israel. No doubt Jews will remain as citizens if they choose, equal with Christians, Moslems and atheists.

    Reading the propaganda which is believed about Israel is depressing if only because I would have liked Israel to survive.

    • stern

      Oh, f… off. Gaza – "concentration camp" BS, BS, BS.

      • stern

        I apologize to the other posters here for my impatience.

        It's patently obvious that rossross did not come here to debate, but to pronounce. Given that these pronouncements are all highly anti-Semitic in nature, it's easy to see immediately who and what we are dealing with.

        There are other fora where these useful idiots and hate-filled bigots can spout to their hearts' content. When they come here, their sole purpose is to inflame, and I regret that I allowed this particular hater to succeed with me.

        There's only one way to treat posters like this, and that's to ignore them.

        • aspacia

          He is a typically, arrogant Brit. I have had to deal with many my entire life. They pronounce, but when faced with factual refute, they become irate, like me mum. They really are not that smart, just arrogant.

          No, not ignore, refute and embarrass him. Reveal his ignorance.

      • rosross

        Abuse is indicative of lack of argument. Concentration camp is not my term but one widely used. By the way, the Americans used concentration camps for the Indians and the British for the Boers – it means pushing and keeping large numbers of people in one place. The people in Gaza were dispossessed from their homes by illegal Israeli settlers and are now crammed into Gaza.

        • aspacia

          ros, Arabs are keep in camps by their brethren and the UN. Did you read my link about how Arabs abuse their brethren? Probably not. You appear be a person who knows what they know and do not want to be bothered with the facts.

          Oh, you forgot, we put Japanese in camps too, and the law is still on the books.

          What about the 650,000 Jewish refugees expelled from Muslim majority lands? According to your logic this makes the vast Muslim majority lands have lost their right to exist too.

          Gaza was ruled by Egypt for a very long time, why did the Gazan not call for a state during this period; could it be, NO, NO, Wait, Never, Could it be they are intolerant of Jews and Jewish rule.

          • rosross

            aspacia,

            I have read your posts but in all truth, we see things so differently I am not sure there is any point in continuing.

            Of course I know about things done by Arabs and Muslims but the topic here is the behaviour of the State of Israel. You cannot argue in a court of law that you should not be judged for killing ten people because someone else killed twenty.

            You cannot defend Israel's human rights abuses and war crimes by pointing out the human rights and abuses of others. And you most certainly cannot compare a nation which claims to be democratic, as Israel does, with non-democratic nations or tyrannies.

            When you compare Israel to other democracies she is probably the worst – the US has certainly invaded and occupied but it does not colonise. If you compare Israel to non-democracies and tyrannies of course she looks marginally better but that is not the way it works. You have to compare with the best of what one claims to be, not the worst of something else.

            As to Jews being expelled in times past – it is irrelevant. Muslims and Christians and Hindus and Buddhists have also been expelled. They are religions – they don't get landrights however wrong the expulsion may be.

            Gaza is a part of Occupied Palestine – Gaza is an encampment where Palestinians who have been dispossessed by illegal Israeli settlers since the State was founded have been pushed. Gaza is not a state and can't be a State. If there is a state of Palestine it will incorporate Gaza and the West Bank and East Jerusalem – depending on where borders are negotiated for Israel.

            But, given the facts on the ground, at this point in time the one state solution appears inevitable – it will be a secular state with citizens of all religions and no doubt Israelis if they choose to remain and it may even be called Israel still of the Palestinian majority agrees.

            But all of the talk of what happened to Jews, what was done when, what Muslims say and don't say is meaningless in the face of world opinion that the occupation and colonisation of Palestine is wrong and must end.

        • Western Canadian

          If you quit reading propoganda about israel, you would quit posting such utter and complete slop, lacking in historical accuracy or ethical standing. You are sickeningly ignorant, and a jew hater.

        • LibertyMan

          Rosross,

          Do you find it easy to lie, or do you have to work at i?

          1) Gaza, The Muslims not only stole the Christians homes, but destroyed the buildings left by the Israeli’s. (so much for Land for Peace and Arab Honor). This is of course what they did in Bethlehem. They also butchered and raped a few hundred of thousands of Christians in Lebanon. That is there MO. You know it,

          2) Gaza should be a jewel of the Mid East with all the money poured in there for improvement and humanitarian. But what have they done with the money except create acts of war and feed the coffers of corrupt Muslims… recall the name of a certain pedophile/mass murderer by the name of Arafat?

          3) To talk about Concentration camps… why don’t you talk about the camps controlled by the Muslims in such places like Syria and Lebanon that breed terrorists and where dissention is matched with torture and death? But truth is a valueless commodity with you.

          4) And these people are the same folk who trained the Muslim Sudanese to murder 2 to 2 and a half million Christians. Yes the PLO, Hezbellah, and Fatah used Sudan as a training site for each other and teach the Sudanese Muslims to use Christians as sport.

          Are you proud of your friends? Are you a sociopath only on here… or do you ply one on TV?
          Inquiring minds want to know.

    • ziontruth

      "How can a society be civilized when it occupies and colonises?"

      Agreed, the Arab imperialists do not constitute civilized societies.

      "How can it be civilized when it maintains the world's largest concentration camp, Gaza?"

      How can you talk of the difference between anti-Zionism and Jew-hatred when you casually spout Nazi analogies like this one?

      "Israel has attacked numerous nations in a mere 70 years including the Palestinians – and it still does."

      Israel has only been attacked, and 70 years ago the faux-Palestinian "nation" had not been invented.

      "Never again actually was not meant just for Jews but for everyone."

      I agree, but not through international guarantees and interventionist meddling, which has been a failure ever since 1919. Only by doing whatever it is in your power, each nation for itself, to prevent it. That's why the Jews are now armed, however much the anti-Zionists may hate that.

      "Now Israel does to Palestinians pretty much what Nazis did to Jews."

      Alright. I get it. We have here a hopeless case. Sorry for wasting time on it.

      • aspacia

        Yes, but we must embarrass this arrogant @$$, if that is possible.

    • Grayzel1

      Rosross, I have a quote that applies directly to you. “Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead.”
      ― Thomas Paine

      I will give you no medicine.

      • APP

        BRAVO Grayzel1 – SOO well said – Kol HaKavod. I think the potz keeps posting under different names for various articles. He was Glenn – something last week! Don't fall in the trap.

    • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

      Israel – Jewish state, that is what it is supposed to be.
      Why would anyone else WANT to live there?

      You want that social equality Commie junk in Israel–they already tried that and gave up land, it was not good enough for you then, it will not be good enough for you now.

      Worry about America FIRST, seems as if you are an American laster.

    • LibertyMan

      You forget the blatant fact that Israel’s enemies doubled the population on ’49 and ’50 when they kicked the Jewish population and stole their land and sent them to Israel. That is not colonization, that makes Israel a nation who excepts refugees. A very parallel to what this country has done in it’s noble past.

      That one fact legitimized the Nation as Israel by their enemies who sole purpose is to anihilate the Jews. There is no moral arguement to give that land back. You have not made it.

      It is a lie on your part to even state it was colonization… because you need a host nation to colonize a land. The only way you can even begin to legitimize it is to admit that Israel was colonized is to admit Israel is a nation to begin with… which means you lost the arguement before you started.

      …. which means you are either a liar or a fool.

      Regarding your statement that your statement that you don’t belive in a Christian or Jewish base nation. Let me remind you that history shows that a Free Republic soon loses it’s rights when their base is a pure secular religionist one. We only have to examine the latter half of the 20th century where Secular Religionists murdered 60 Million in the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany murdered 25 Million. We see in our nation as it becomes more controled by Secular Reliogionists that the citizenry is losing it’s right and moral center as it drifts from it’s Jewish – Christian roots.

      • Libertyman

        After thought comment.

        Who are the real Colonialists?

        I guess the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, Iraqi's and the Lebonese who came to take advantage of the Jew's propsperity and the 1967 title of Palestinian would be.

        • aspacia

          No joke. What about the Islamist conquest of a huge chunk of real estate, including much of Spain.

    • aspacia

      rosross, The U.S. was colonized by the UK and France. I guess neither the UK nor France are civilized according to your claim. Ah, what about India, the Spanish colonization of South America, Mexico and the US. Southwest. I guess you are civilized according to your claim. Oh, yes, and most of the world was colonized by another country at one point in time or another. Normans colonized the Saxon Britain, and prior to that the Romans were there for 300 years. What you describe as imprisoning without charge stems from the British practice during her colonial period. Look to yourself and your sins. Israel is simply trying to survive the genocidal threats from her neighbors.

      You keep returning to the fallacious claim of Israel being a theocracy, when in fact she is not. She is secular, and all faiths may freely practice there. In contrast, Christians cannot build or repair churches in most of the ME, nor practice in the ME. Most Jews were driven out years ago.

      If you want an understanding of Lebanon I suggest reading Act for American. Brigitte Gabriel is a Christian who was forced to live in hiding for many years in this land because Muslims were and still massacring Chistians. Look at what is happening to the Copts.

      Don't you realize how you syllogism falls apart.

      Iran and Iraq fought a very long war. Iran arms terrorists who target U.S. and Israelis regardless of arms or age. Do you every listen to what Ahmadinejad claims. http://www.factsandlogic.org/hotline_archive/FLAM

      How about the PA cleric claiming this: http://www.israelnationalnews.com

      /News/News.aspx/151758#.T0-bAPUmySo

      Yes, the Stern Gang or Irgun did use terrorist tactics against the British Military. They warned the David Hotel prior to bombing it. They did not target civilians, only the military.
      Yes, there are Israeli fanatics, about 8,000 of them, but compared to the millions of violent Islamists this is nothing, especially since Israel controls her people and the Arab leaders do not control their people. Hence, the wall and check points had to be built.

      ros, the Arab/Muslims initiated the violence, and Israel is defending herself, and I don't blame her. Currently, we have a problem with the Mexican drug cartels, and after O's hopeful OUSTER, a leader will harden our border and really nail these b@$t@rd$.

      There are only 20,000 Iranian Jews left. Your numbers are off.

      Again, why was there not a call for two states prior to 1967 while Gaza was controlled by Egypt and Jordan controlled the West Bank and expelled all the Jews? The two state solution is nothing more than a tactic in the strategy to destroy Israel.

      You, like so many Brits do not have a clue about the situation and the fact. I have numerous relatives in the UK, many are highly educated and indoctrinated with this bs. They to have no response to the fact, and simply walk away as the call for a genocide of the Jews intensifies.

      I STAND FOR ISRAEL, the only people worth their salt in the whole ME.

  • Ed Frias

    Click on rosross name and you will see she's nothing but a prop for Islamo fascists.
    The Arabs have been yapping for 60 years about pushing the Jews into the sea. I don't know why Israel doesn't turn the tables on them and push the Arabs into the sea. It would be the first bath most of them have had in decades.

  • sedoanman

    Is there something new here?

  • Ed Frias

    Judea and Samaria and all of Jerusalem are liberated Israeli Land.
    Tell us when did it ever belong to Palestinians? Answer Never. It was never a Pal land to begin with, so your question is invalid. The Palestinians never governed or controlled any land before 1993.
    To make it simple, please tell me one
    Palestinian President before 1948? Keep thinking rosross.
    The Palestinians want a capitol, which they never had, in a country that never existed.

    Israel existed 1500 years before Muhammad was born. Look at Islamic countries and look at
    Sharia laws. Its a brutal, violent and an intolerant religion. It produces the most inhumane people on this planet. Besides Saudi Arabia, the entire Middle East and North Africa was never Arab or Muslim. The thieving Arabs stole all the land from the Native peoples in the Middle East in the 7th century and forced everyone they colonized to become Muslim. Anyone that didn't convert, had there heads cut off. The Jews resisted the terrorist Muhammad and didn't convert.

  • Ed Frias

    There is a primary historical fact, that must be established now. There has never been, I repeat NEVER been, a civilization, Entity, or a nation referred to as "Palestine" There was never a Palestinian tribe, and there was never a Palestinian country in the Land of Israel to begin with! Arab culture that allows honor killings to be legal. Israel is not for sale. It is not a pie to be sliced up and served to a clan of killers and their supporters.
    1: When did Jerusalem serve as a capitol to any Arab Country ? Never.
    2: When did Jerusalem serve as a Palestinian capitol ? Never.
    3: Only Israel have had Jerusalem as there capitol in Ancient and modern times.
    Jerusalem was never in history an Arab capitol and never will be one.
    4: How many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Koran? Zero.
    Was Mohammed to so badly educated, he could not utter the word "J-e-r-u-s-a-l-e-m"

  • rosross

    I shall leave you to it. When I came across the article I did not realise it was such a propaganda hotbed. Take care and remember, if Israel does not survive it will not be because of Arabs or people like me, it will be because of Israelis and people like you.

    • ziontruth

      May you have a gay time with Hitler, Osama and Moammar soon, anti-Zionist scum!

    • stern

      And so she scuttles off, proverbial tail between her legs. And yes, Israel will survive, despite the Arabs and despite people like you. No doubt, you will continue to hate us and Israel and you will continue to be a small-minded, bigoted little person. But you'll have to live with that, and I thank you for relieving us of your noxious presence.

    • UCSPanther

      Glad to see you wasted time blasting a tirade at a us, and we don't care.

      Run, coward.

      • aspacia

        She has probably gone to read The Guardian because most of the garbage she spouts stem from this rags talking points.

    • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

      Israel, in the end age is the ONLY place that survives, and no-nobody is going to bow down and worship YOU- that is how YOU come across, its ALL about you.
      Typical Commie Muslim

    • aspacia

      ros, Arabs are keep in camps by their brethren and the UN. Did you read my link about how Arabs abuse their brethren? Probably not. You appear be a person who knows what they know and do not want to be bothered with the facts.

  • rosross

    I hate dem joos because I have such a tiny pecker

    • Grayzel1

      I see you have reached your natural state of evil and idiocy.

    • aspacia

      ros, you have no brain nor pecker nor logic. Good riddance.

  • Marty

    Aactually, the palestinians had a lot to do with encouraging the german massacre of european Jews. haj amin al-husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, met with and adored hitler (the feeling was mutual), formed a muslim military unit under the auspices of the SS, and ordered the murder of many Jews as well as arabs he deemed too soft on Jews. The palestinian leadership hoped and worked for a german victory in World War II. There is a viable argument that the nazis received a lot of inspiration from islam is quite demonstrable. After all, the koran is filled with anti-semitic references full of hate and violent urges. muhamad was a notorious anti-semite. Apologists such edward said lie a lot and have persuaded muslims to blame everyone except themselves for their miserable and impoverished lives. It's a pity. If muslims could break away from the evil and brutality of islam there is probably very little they could not achieve.

  • PAthena

    Calling Arabs "Palestinians" is a lie promoted by Egypt under Nasser and the Soviet Union, haters of Jews, when they founded the "Palestine Liberation Organization" (P.L.O.) in Cairo in 1964. "Palestinian" was always synonymous with "Jew," and "Palestine" with "land of the Jews" (or "the Holy Land" since Jesus was a Jew) from the time that the Roman Emperor Hadrian changed the name of Judea to "Palestina," in 135 A.D. after he had defeated the last Jewish rebellion under Bar Kochba. That is why Great Britain was given the "Palestine Mandate" after World War I to be the "homeland of the Jews."

  • Ghostwriter

    What rosross doesn't understand is that his or her beloved Palestinians hate Jews and want to kill as many as possible. They don't care who they hurt as long as they get their pound of flesh.

  • kafantaris

    When Palestinian TV is on, it shows Sesame Street.
    When it shows Sesame Street, it shows Bert.
    When it shows Bert, it shows it might be OK to be gay.
    When it shows it might be OK to be gay, the TV censors come out. 
    When the TV censors come out, they get friendly with the Palestinians.
    Don’t let your TV censors get friendly with the Palestinians.
    Confiscate Palestinian TV.

  • Brujo Blanco

    If I was lost in the Mideast I would be better off if I was lost in Israel. I would not be killed for being a a non Muslim. This would more likely happen in a Muslim country.

  • http://garyfouse.blogspot.com gary fouse

    As a part-time teacher at UCI-Ext, I have been witnessing this crap at UCI since 2007. What Cravatts says is true. The entire UC system has been disgraced by this anti-Israel bias led by a bunch of dopey students and egged on by equally dopey liberal professors. There is no balance, no search for truth, just propaganda on one side. Just this week, two IDF soldiers speaking at UC Davis were disrupted by hecklers and the campus cops did nothing.

  • rosross

    Given how much mail kept coming I will make one last comment. The level of abuse and name-calling directed at someone who states quite clearly Israel's past, present and possible future – views I might add which are shared by most people around the world today, quite a few Israelis who can see that the history of Israel and the 'facts on the ground' actually amount to 'writing on the wall' if Israelis do not face up to reality and increasingly numbers of Americans who, like Israelis, have been fed the most and the worst of the propaganda as to Israel's reality – is both sad and predictable.
    People who really want to solve a problem do not resort to name-calling and abuse, those are the resort of people who are frightened and brain-washed. In saying that I do understand the depth of feeling some people have and the fear in which it is sourced but that is an excuse, not a reason.
    When you defend Israel like this you don't help her and neither do you help Judaism – Jews around the world see Israel's behaviour as giving them a bad name and those who can approach this topic rationally and sensibly know they truth and are distancing themselves accordingly.
    I don't know how many of you are Israelis but there is more truth published by brave Israelis in that country than there is published in the US for a start and most of them would look at most of what is on this site and dismiss it as the work of 'paid' Zionist/Israel/Jewish lobby supporters.
    The truly sad thing is that anyone coming across these posts in a search for information about the reality of the Palestinian/Israeli problem would dismiss most of it as propaganda and go elsewhere. This method of supporting Israel is not just making her a laughing-stock it is destroying her.
    Most of the 'so-called defences' mounted here have been dismissed by Israeli historians, archeologists, biblical scholars and anthropologists – not to mention international ones. Your truth, which is not the truth, but propaganda and lies, is not the truth of a growing number of Israelis and people around the world, including Americans.
    If any of you actually care about truth and about Israel then do some research beyond the limits you have used and still use because it is only the truth which can save Israel. The world will not allow the occupation to continue – it will not allow Israel to kill or remove all Palestinians both in what amounts to Israel, behind UN mandated borders and what is Occupied Palestine – it will not allow the apartheid State to remain: as with South Africa the boycotts and sanctions movement is growing. Israel must either negotiate final and legitimate borders for herself, in which case she can choose to be a theocractic Jewish state with privileges for followers of Judaism, although she won't be a democracy, or it will be one secular state where Jews and Israelis may live if they choose. However it won't be called Israel with a Palestinian majority.
    So please, if you really do care about Israel deal with facts not fantasy because the future of Israel can only be assured through truth and reality – not lies and fantasy, however powerfully some of her supporters may believe.
    I do wish you all well as I wish Israel well and I don't take the abuse personally.

    • http://citizensfirstasnau.blogspot.com.au/ markjuliansmith

      "..it will not allow Israel to kill or remove all Palestinians both in what amounts to Israel, behind UN mandated borders and what is Occupied Palestine"

      In the same way the Syrian elite is not being allowed to commit genocide against its own people and nor when the now Syrian opposition obtain secular power they will not be allowed to carry out their own threats of 'kill' Other?

      We would like to believe it but I will believe it when I see it.

      Frankly I think there is a much larger question which the Israel / Palestinian conflict is only representative.

      There will be no peace no absence of terror for anyone until this is resolved change in borders of Israel/ Palestine and or status of either.

      • aspacia

        Arabs should just absorb their brethren as Israel absorbed hers.

    • stern

      rosross, admit it. You came here not to debate, but to lecture. You used all the standard – and, I repeat, boilerplate – anti-Israel criticism, much of it anti-Semitic. And then you got upset when we didn't react like nice little Jewboys and bow down to your superior wisdom.

      This is the wrong place for that kind of nonsense. The people here are generally better informed and a heck of a lot more widely read than you are. We read the stuff you read, and then some. We read other sources, we investigate and we know a hell of a lot more than you do about the reality of the situation in the Middle East. A large number of us have even taken the time to visit Israel – all parts of the country, including the West Bank. We can see the difference between reality and anti-Israel demonization.

      So stop acting as if you are some kind of superior intellect, deigning to spend a little of your precious time with us, thinking that you can "educate" us with your own brainwashed-in crap. We don't need you here, we don't want you here, and we will never welcome you here. Goodbye and good riddance.

      • rosross

        Stern, no I came merely to state the facts which exist in the face of dangerous fantasies which threaten Israel. I am sorry if it came across as a lecture, that was not my intention.
        I too have been to Israel and have friends there. I want the best for Israel and I quite honestly believe that repeating the lies, propaganda and fantasy as is done here is gauranteeing that Israel will not survive.
        I am not the least bit upset. I take none of it personally. Your attacks are sourced in fear and we have no personal connection so why would I take it personally?

        If you really believed that you were well informed you would not have responded with outrage to what I said. I don't believe in superior intellects but I do believe in balanced information and the information posted here is, in the main, seriously unbalanced. You say you read other sources – does that include Gush shalom, Peace Now, B'Tselem – Israeli human rights and peace groups, or even Haaretz, a newspaper with some conscience still, in Israel? If you do then what they say and report is not reflected in what you say here.
        Israelis have an excuse for denial – they are fearful – supporters of Israel living safely in other countries have no excuse. You have access to the internet you could find out all there is to know about this situation and if you did you would actually be a friend to Israel not what I call a frenemy – someone who wants to be a friend but whose actions are akin to those of an enemy.
        Israel's survival depends on truth and honesty – some Israelis know that – if you care about Israel you should make it your goal to find truth and honesty yourself.
        By the way I have many followers of Judaism who are my friends and I have family who still practise Judaism and I have no concept of what you refer to as a 'nice little Jewboy."
        I wish you well, I really do and I also wish Israel well, despite what you may think.

        • stern

          rosross, in your post above, you say that:
          "Most of the 'so-called defences' mounted here have been dismissed by Israeli historians, archeologists, biblical scholars and anthropologists " Provide sources and I will refute every one of them. The archeological record shows without a shadow of a doubt that there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the Holy Land for more than 3,000 years. Why do you think the Waqf is so busily destroying layer after layer of precious archeological evidence on the Temple Mount?

          "Israeli historians"? Which ones? Ilan Pappe – the liar who has even admitted that he twists facts to suit his own ideology? Benny Morris, who has retracted the most vicious of his libels? Have you ever read Efraim Karsh, whose meticulous research into the truth behind the Arab refugees uses new sources to prove that they fled at the instigation of their leaders. I'm willing to bet you haven't and I highly recommend that you consult his excellent "Palestine Betrayed" before you demonstrate your ignorance yet again.

          Biblical scholars? Do you really want to go there? Do you really want to start taking the bible as history? Because if you do, I can go toe-to-toe with you on that, and use biblical sources to prove that Israel should be a heck of a lot bigger than it is now. But I have never based my arguments on the Bible. Rather, I use international law – specifically, the San Remo conference and the Mandate for Palestine, as well as the unbroken chain of Jewish residence in the Holy Land, to prove Israel's claims.

          Now, you ask whether I've read the claims of Gush Shalom, Peace Now, B'Tselem etc. Obviously, you have. But have YOU looked for any evidence that contradicts yours? Do you know that B'Tselem, for instance, takes Palestinian "evidence" at absolute face value, with no corroboration necessary, and refuses to give credit to even the most careful of investigations that proves them wrong? Do you know that B'Tselem counts armed teenagers as "children", or that it also counts suicide bombers among the casualties it lists on the Palestinian side?

          Are you aware that Peace Now, in November 2007, had to retract its accusation that 86% of the land in Maaleh Adunim was "stolen" from the Palestinians – and that in fact, 0.5% of the suburb is built on private land? And this is just one example. LIke so many other fringe leftist organizations in Israel, it has been discredited and is rapidly losing the little support it still has.

          Quite frankly, I don't buy your claims about wishing Israel well. If you did, you would not gravitate towards the most hostile sources possible and take their claims as gospel truth.

          You accuse me of being fearful, but you are wrong. I am angry. On behalf of every Jewish child who has had to take up arms instead of going straight to college or university, on behalf of every innocent civilian who has been murdered by genocidal, ethnic cleansing Arabs, I am furious that you have the sheer unmitigated gall to come here and attempt to peddle your half-assed "truths". You make me sick to my stomach.

          • rosross

            Stern,

            The simple reality is this, six times more Palestinians have been killed in this war than Israelis (and that is not counting the countless thousands massacred by Zionist armies in the war to create Israel) and those Palestinians have died fighting for their right to be free, a right enshrined in the Geneva convention while Israelis have died in a fight to maintain occupation and colonisation.

            Those young Israelis who take up arms are joining a military which maintains occupation and colonisation – those young Palestinians who take up arms are fighting for freedom and justice. I know you don't see it this way but this is the way that most people in the world now see it and increasingly Americans.

            These are unpalatable but simple facts. No-one denies that Palestine was partitioned, against the will of the majority of the people living there, including some Jews, to allow the formation of Israel. That partition while certainly immoral was also legally questionable.

            However, Israel exists just like any other coloniser and its existence is accepted. What is not accepted is the continued occupation and illegal colonisation and the creation of an apartheid State.

            In this modern age we no longer support colonisation and the UN would now, no more pass resolutions to partition another country than fly to the moon. But 1947 was 1947. All that can be done is to right the wrong done then as much as one can, as all colonisers have had to do.

            The Palestinians cannot have all of their country back – unless Israel continues to refuse to negotiate legitimate borders for itself – and Israel cannot have all of Palestine. It is as simple as that. What is done is done. Either Israel ends the occupation and there is a two-state solution – much harder now given how many illegal settlements have been built – and they are considered illegal under international law and by the world at large – or there is a one-state solution.

            Who did what when is now irrelevant. The reality is the injustice and untenability of the current situation. Jews may believe they have rights to Palestine but the world at large doesn't. Anyway religions don't get land rights. And even if religions did and Jews could make a claim that could not and would not justify the continued occupation and colonisation of Palestine. Nor would it or could it justify an apartheid State.

            Israel's Sharpeville was the attack on Gaza – whether you admit to it or not it was a war crime and the world sees it as a war crimes – it also marked the turning point where world opinion set itself firmly behind justice for the Palestinians. They will get it. They have time, numbers and justice on their side – all that Israel can do and all her supporters should urge is to return to the negotiating table and negotiate legitimate borders for the State of Israel which allows an independent, contiguous Palestinian State. That is in fact the only way which can ensure there is a nation called Israel in ten years time.

          • stern

            rosross, this is why I don't bother debating you. You are so full of it, it's not worth the effort.

            However, I'm going to ask you to close your Haaretz and read some truth for a change: http://tinyurl.com/82n47f7

            and http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48898917.html

            You claim that the Palestinians are suffering? These prove that it's absolute BS. The first is a report on PALESTINIAN SOURCES – the Palestinians themselves know that they are not suffering. The second is easily verifiable and demonstrates that before the first intifada, the Palestinian standard of living was a heck of a lot of better. In other words, the Palestinians lived better under true Israeli "occupation" than they do now, under the PA.

            You call Operation Cast Lead "Israel's Sharpeville", but once again, you have chosen the wrong person and the wrong place to make this claim. I happen to know the reality of Sharpeville: people were protesting peacefully against the pass laws, and were shot down in cold blood. Gaza was completely different. The Gazans had fired more than 8.000 rockets into Israel, deliberately aiming to kill civilians and disable Israeli civil society (and remember, they were attacking pre-1967 sovereign Israel, not "settlements"). And for all your crap about casualty counts, Hamas itself has admitted that the majority of people who died in Operation Cast Lead were combatants. Run this through google translate:
            http://international.daralhayat.com/international

            And do me a favour, stop all your pious posturing about how you only want the best for Israel. If that were true, you would look further than your bigotry. There is an axiom that is still just as true as it ever was:
            If the Palestinians laid down their arms today, there would be peace tomorrow.
            If Israel laid down its arms today, there would be no Israel tomorrow.

            You said you were going away. Why are you still here?

          • stern

            "thousands massacred by Zionist armies in the war to create Israel"

            Are you for real?

            For heaven's sake, of everything you've said, this is probably the most ridiculous. Who started the war in 1948? Who swore to annihilate whom? Who threatened to push who into the sea? Google Gush Etzion and tell me just who massacred whom?

            Actually, while I keep telling you to go away, maybe I should welcome you here. With every successive post, you prove yourself more and more of a hate-filled bigot. You barely need any help from me.

          • aspacia

            Stern, she is also an arrogant idiot Brit. God, I have had to deal with so many racists in my life.

          • aspacia

            So what, the Arabs initiated the attacks and eventually lost more people than the Israelis. Germany and Japan lost more people than the Allies. So? When there is a war a country must fight to win.

            Hamas military do not wear uniforms and hide among civilians, hence many of the people who elected Hamas die because of their misdeeds.

            No, any Israeli attack against Gaza was a reaction to years of rocket bombardment from Gaza. Israel should have driven every Gazan into the sea.

      • aspacia

        Yes Stern, she is a typical Brit tell us what we can and cannot do and has zero idea how to argue or refute claims.

    • dave

      Hi Rosross, I think you need to be aware of the Islamic attitude towards the Jews and non-Muslims in order to have a more objective attitude. There are many uncomfortable truths about Islam that we in the west are either ignorant about or choose to ignore. In the Hadith, the book of Jihad is worth reading. Chapter 80 for example says, 'The prophet on his deathbed gave three orders saying, "Expel Al-Mushkirun (pagans,unbelievers etc) from the Arabian Peninsula". If you look at the Arab world, this is exactly how they behave! They do not want ANY other people apart from Muslims there, which is why Copts are being killed and why the idea of a non-Muslim country is anathema to them. It is incumbent on anyone interested in middle eastern politics to study the Koran, Sunna and Hadith to be able to have an objective opinion. I have and I actually feel sorry for Muslims not anger. It is about 10% religion and 90% political ideology which orders your murder if you leave the faith. I used to have the same attitude as you but after I studied Islam, I realised that Israel is in an impossible situation, surrounded by 1.2 billion people who want to destroy you. They have no interest in peace, which is the real truth my friend.

    • aspacia

      ros, you just lost your claim and were unable to refute one claim. Israel will continue, and as far as world opinion, who cares, the world is and has always been antiJewish, just like you and your arrogant, bigoted brethren.

      You do not debate, and you only claim that this site and we hurt Israel with our fantasy, when it is in fact you who are living in the Muslim mendacious fantasy land.

      Frankly, you should take it personally, because frankly your have zero credibility and have not made one valid refute. You keep returning to the lie of Israel being a theocracy when it is not. You ignore the continuous rocket and suicide attacks against Israel and her civilians.

      Frankly my dear, you are an arrogant @$$ who makes idiotic proclamations, and are unable to respond to our rebuttals except to say they are propaganda. YOU FOOL!

    • Western Canadian

      You pompous, ignorant, lying ass. Every word you posted was a dishonest, hate fill smear. Every lie told by any jew hater in the middle east or anywhere else, is all you have to offer. You are utterly sickening. Anyone coming to this website for truth, past and present, will find it. Liars like you who come here to spread your ignorance and hatred, will not be allowed to spew your drivel without challenge, which is as it should be. Suggesting that you offer ‘facts’ is almost funny… but nothing spouted by a jew hater like you is truly funny. Go back to your bloody koran, and stay ignorant. You will find life easier that way.

      • stern

        Thank you, Western Canadian, for saying what needed to be said.

  • Ahm Segula

    Israel is not an 'occupier,' let alone a 'colonialist' power — and the claim is sheer, slanderous drivel.

    The arrogant & complacent propounder of tired and tiresome cliches, Rosross, could profit from a little time spent in the public library — the History Section might be a good place to start.

    One cannot be rightly said to 'occupy' that which is arguably his OWN.

    While it's true that "Judaism" and "Jews" are not precisely synonymous, it's EQUALLY true that Zionism (Jewish nationalism & love of the Land of Israe) is — and has always been — AN INTEGRAL PART OFJUDAISM, viz. the religion of the Jewish People.

    The Jewish State is not a theocracy. It was founded by secular socialists, many of whom were flat-out atheists.

    Anybody who claims to appreciate international law in re Israel needs only to read the Mandate for Palestine to see that the Israelis have every legal right to be where they are — and that includes the heartland ["West Bank"] provinces.

    Everything about Israel — from her founding till this day — has occurred in the teeth of opposition, and against odds far greater than those she presently faces.

    She will withstand these as well, and when the smoke clears, she will REMAIN standing — while her enemies will have gone the way of all the other ones, who got what was coming to them.

    The list is quite a rogues' gallery, by-the-way — just in case there is somebody here who entertains similar intentions toward the Jewish Nation.

  • Ahm Segula

    1. Israel is not an 'occupier' — let alone, a 'colonialist' power — and the claim is sheer, slanderous, self-serving drivel. The arrogant & complacent propounder of tired and tiresome cliches, Rosross, could profit from a little time spent in the public library — the History Section might be a good place to start. One cannot be rightly said to 'occupy' that which is arguably his OWN.

    2. While it's true that "Judaism" and "Jews" are not precisely synonymous, it's EQUALLY true that Zionism (Jewish nationalism & love of the Land of Israe) is — and has always been — AN INTEGRAL PART OFJUDAISM, viz. the religion of the Jewish People. Nonetheless, the Jewish State is NOT a theocracy & never has been. It was founded by secular socialists, many of whom were flat-out atheists.

  • Ahm Segula

    3. Anybody who CLAIMS to appreciate international law needs only to read the Mandate for Palestine to see that the Israelis have every legal right to be where they are — and that INCLUDES the heartland ["West Bank"] provinces.

    4. Everything about Israel — from her founding till this day — has occurred in the teeth of opposition, and against odds far greater than those she presently faces. She will withstand these as well, and when the smoke clears, she will REMAIN standing — while her enemies will have gone the way of all the other ones, who got what was coming to them. The list is quite a rogues' gallery, BTW — just in case there is somebody here who entertains similar intentions toward the Jewish Nation.

    • markjuliansmith

      There is no such thing as Freedom of anything, only the relative independence Nature and fellow humans allow at any point in time.

      At any point in time Nature or Fellow Humans Determine Israel, for whatever reason will cease to exist, Israel will cease to exist legal right, International or Otherwise.

      Sitting on a thrown of 'legal right' and expecting Israel can do what it likes as with the Palestinians and Humanity will not act with prejudice against Israel if they believe Israels actions are counter to their interests frankly why bother writing history.

      As Israel was created at a point in time for whatever reason it can just as easily be dismantled. Puffing out your chest and denying Israel has equal part in Humanities rogue gallery does not make it less so – particularly given changes in the area – I am not sure if you have noticed who exactly is taking over Egypt nor the fact they already allow Iran to pass freely through the red sea. Legal right bar-humbug.

      • aspacia

        markjuuliansmith, you are antiJewish, just as Chomsky and LeVine, when you make these claims.

        Tiny Israel is target by you, when there are huge atrocities occurring world wide. Look at the Cong. What about the recent Nigerians who were burned alive by the Islamist. Get a Grip, and pay attention to the numerous crimes that occur worldwide. Comparatively, Israel is innocent.

        What about the huge amount of crimes against humanity in the Arab and Persian world which violate UN law? Why no mention of this?

        The vast Arab world expelled 650,000 Jews without compensation and Israel absorbed them, and the Arab world should do the same for its brethren.

        Israel has to fight when faced with neighbors like this: http://www.factsandlogic.org/hotline_archive/FLAM

    • aspacia

      No kidding, but the idiot ros, does not want to deal with the fact, she want to know what she knows and continue to live in OZ.

  • rosross

    Dave, if one were to go through the Torah or the Bible one could come up with similar things. I am aware of the Israeli and Jewish propaganda about Arabs and Palestinians and I am aware of propaganda from the other side.

    But the reality is this – Palestinian hatred and rage is sourced in their appalling situation of being occupied by a brutal military and watching their country being continually colonised – not to mention the other excesses of Israeli rule.

    Palestinians are not all Muslim although many Christians have emigrated and within Islam, as within all religions there are extremists on all sides. The Jewish extremists, fanatics, I might add are as bad as the Muslim – they believe that Israel should not only have all of Palestine but much of Jordan and Lebanon as well and they believe that all non-Jews should be killed or driven out.

    So when you talk perspective then apply it everywhere.

    Both Jordan and Egypt have been on Israel's side in the past – Lebanon as well although following Israel's attack on that country it is hardly surprising that the Lebanese may have changed their position.

    In addition, a few years ago the Saudis led an Arab initiative offering peace to Israel from all Arab nations if the Israelis would end the occupation and negotiate borders for themselves, thus allowing the Palestinians their own state. Israel refused.

    Israel is not condemned because it is Jewish, or rather, wants to be a Jewish state – it is condemned because of its actions. Israel does not have 1.2billion people who want to destroy her and in fact they can't. The Israelis know that. Israel's tragedy is that she is destroying herself.

    Israel exists through colonisation. Like all colonisers she has to admit to the wrongs inherent in her foundation and make redress to the indigenous Palestinians. Then it is either negotiate legitimate and final borders for herself and allow two states or create one secular state with equal rights for all.

    The violence which has existed has existed solely because of the way Israel was created and how it has acted since. All indigenous peoples fought colonisation and if the US, Canada, Australia etc., had created apartheid States and did to their indigenous peoples what Israel does to the Palestinians then they would have had the same sort of violence.

    Jewish fanatics in Israel are bad enough but the Jewish fanatics who live safely outside Israel have done the damage which is the 'facts on the ground' which now make a two state solution pretty imposssible. Israel could have peace tomorrow if it ended the occupation – but I suspect it is too late.

    I have also studied Islam and I have studied Christianity and Judaism and Hinduism for that matter and the trouble in the world today is religion. Fundamentalist Christians, Jews and Moslems have so much in common that they would be better off in one country – leaving everyone else to the sanity of moderate religion or no religion.

    Israel's problem is Judaism – if Israelis did not have some fantasy about being a Jewish state – ridiculous really when most Jews don't live there, there would have been one state long ago.

    And given your comments on Islam, how is it that some 100,000 Iranian Jews continue to refuse Israeli pleas to leave and live in Israel?

    • stern

      " if one were to go through the Torah or the Bible one could come up with similar things"

      But how many Rabbis and priests do you hear of regularly telling their followers to obey these "teachings"? When last did you hear even an Orthodox Rabbi exhorting his flock to wipe out the Hittities and the Jebusites? Just last month, a Palestinian Imman, under the auspices of the Palestinian Authority, delivered a sermon in which he told his congregants that the end days will not come until even the trees and the rocks call to them, inviting them to come and kill the Jews hiding behind them.

      And of course, you have the entire notion of the Jewishness of Israel just about as wrong as you have everything else. Yes, the need for a Jewish state has quite a bit to do with the faith of Judaism, but even more importantly, the necessity for a Jewish state was demonstrated by the Holocaust. The State of Israel is the only guarantee that "never again" will mean "never again".

      You rant on about "Jewish fanatics", but you clearly have no idea how Jews feel about this tiny minority. And they are tiny. They make up less than 1% of the entire Jewish population and some of them have even been excommunicated.

      Why do you insist on proving your own one-sided and deliberate ignorance on every single issue that concerns Israel? By saying this, I'm not calling you an idiot. I'm saying that you are so blinded by hatred (oh sorry, I forgot, some of your best friends are Jews) that you choose to completely ignore even the possibility that there's another side to the issue.

    • Western Canadian

      More utter drivel and dishonesty from an ignorant skin head who has never studied any religion, history, or anything else.

  • rosross

    Hmm, it doesn't say much for a site which allows hacking. There are posts here which are not mine. Not that it matters but the editors should take note that such things don't give them any credibility.

    • Western Canadian

      Franky, any of your posts are so utterly pathetic that you should be ashamed of each and every one of them. You are utterly ignorant, hate filled and sickening. And now you are trying to claim the posts are not yours. How droll.

  • aspacia

    ros, the Arabs "appalling" situation stems from the fact that their brethren will not absorb them as Israel absorbs her brethren.

    NOW CHEW ON THAT NUGGET FOR A WHILE BEFORE RESPONDING.

  • rosross

    Just to wish you all well. I won't reply to posts which came in because they were abusive. I wonder how many of you ponder the level of bile which enters into your posts and which hardly amounts to mature discussion. Name-calling, abuse, insults do not an argument make and in fact indicate a lack of argument. If you cannot defend your position without resorting to such inappropriate and uncivilized behaviour then it says a lot about you and nothing about anyone who puts a differing view. I am surprised that those who maintain this site are prepared to put up with the sort of language which most credible media sites delete as inappropriate. Sadly, such language hurts Israel and has no impact on those like myself who are actually trying to help Israel.
    N.B. To the editors of FrontPage Mag. The standard of your Thread in this instance is utterly unprofessional. If you want to spread your message, as in increase your readership, you need to introduce Moderation on posts. What you have now is shameful in any journalistic terms.

    • stern

      apologies to all if my earlier post (of which this is something of a repeat) suddenly reappears.

      rosross, you keep saying you wish us all well, and that you wish Israel nothing but the best. But you come onto this site and repeat all the worst anti-Israel canards, accusing Israel of every possible evil. You base your arguments on some of the most virulent anti-Israel sources available. For example Haaretz, a newspaper that is read by about 1% of all Israelis, but much loved by those who hate Israel; a newspaper whose publisher if famous for having asked the US to "rape" Israel.

      You refer to Gush Shalom, Peace Not (not a typo) and B'Tselem, three organizations that may be Israeli, but are far from pro-Israel. These organizations have demonstrated their pure hatred for Israel in many ways, including taking Palestinian claims at face value, with no substantiation, and quite simply lying about building in Judea and Samaria.

      You accuse "Zionists" of "massacring" Arabs in 1948, when it was the Arabs who openly and brazenly admitted that it was THEIR goal to massacre every last Jew in the Holy Land.

      In other words, everything you say is aimed at deligimitizing, demonizing and destroying Israel – and then you claim to "wish us well". Well, rossross, we don't buy it.

      How dare you come here, to our "home", and insult like this? And how dare you act surprised and injured when we return the favour by insulting you? Are you really that thick-skinned? Shame on you

    • Ahm Segula

      "Name-calling, abuse, insults do not an argument make and in fact indicate a lack of argument."

      Well, now, SOMETIMES those things do indicate a "lack of argument."

      Not always, however.

      Sometimes — as in the present instances — they simply reflect an utter EXASPERATION with the arrogant, complacent, self-serving poppycock that you evidently expect to pass for 'mature discussion' in reply to the legitimate arguments already presented to you.

      Try climbing down off your horse, and I've no doubt that you will find the atmosphere a lot more cordial.

      Your choice.

    • Gonzaga

      I have done what you requested. Now then, do reply. Your responses indicate you do not necessarily favor expelling Jews from Israel. What would happen if the majority of Israel became Muslim & rendered legally necessary the flight of the Jews? Would you mind having an additional six million in the US? There was a famed event at Evian that indicated that was very unlikely. Should these Jews then die for your ideas?

      • rosross

        Gonzoga,
        I don't favour expelling anyone from anywhere – what I favour is justice. Unfortunately Israel has worked so hard at taking and keeping most if not all of Palestine it has made a two-state solution, the only way Israel can survive as a religious state if that is what it wants, impossible.
        In this situation it is not so much what people want but what is possible. If there is a one-state solution it would be secular and followers of any religion could be citizens. The flight of non-Muslims is hypothetical – more hypothetical in fact than the possibility of the expulsion of non-Jews in the current situation but in reality, no-one can gaurantee the future. The most likely outcome of a one-state solution is that many followers of Judaism would emigrate, as many young Jews are already doing in fact, to countries like the US, Canada, Australia, Britain, numerous European countries etc., where in fact most Jews now live.
        The premise for a Jewish state has never existed because most followers of Judaism do not live in Israel and in fact do not want to. Religions neither need nor deserve their own states.
        As to people dying for my ideas – it is not my ideas which bring death it is the ideas of those who believe a Jewish theocracy (for that is what it would be) is required and that non-Jews should be inferiors in the State of israel. It is ideas of apartheid and discrimination against non-Jews and the belief that Palestinians should be removed from their own land so Israelis can colonise all of Palestine which has people dying. The Palestinians, like all occupied and colonised people are merely fighting for freedom and justice – they are dying for a cause the world and international law supports while Israelis are dying in a fight to maintain occupation and colonisation and may yet die in a fight for an apartheid State, a theocratic state, a state free of non-Jews, none of which are supported either by international law or the world at large.
        Tragically Israelis, jewish and non-Jewish alike are dying and have died for ideas sourced in racist Zionism and racist Judaism. I would like Israel to survive but the only way it can do that is to negotiate legitimate borders for itself with the indigenous Palestinians now! Without that a one state solution is inevitable – with or without Jews as citizens. But I would add just as world opinion would severely punish Israel for seeking to drive out non-Jews so it would severely punish the Palestinians for seeking to drive out non-Muslims. Increasingly in this day and age it is world opinion which decides – Israelis would be wiser to recognise that and act accordingly – negotiate now in good faith if you want your State to survive.

  • rosross

    Ahm,
    What I repeat are realities which are the most powerful argument of all. What many Israelis and their supporters repeat are fantasies which are dangerous and destructive. Israel can have no argument for an apartheid State, for a Jewish state (a theocracy in essence not the democracy it claims to be) for the continued occupation of Palestine; for the continued colonisation of Palestine; for the flouting of UN Resolutions, international law; for the continual committing of human rights abuses and war crimes and for the daily humiliation, subjugation, torture, imprisoning and murdering of a helpless people – the indigenous people of Palestine and what is called Israel.
    These things cannot be defended on any count and what has changed since the infamous attack on Gaza, a war crime so tastelessly named after a child's game, is that more people in the world, including, importantly, more and more Americans, now know the truth not only of Israel's actions but the truth of its foundation and world opinion, quite rightly, is on the side of the victims – the Palestinians.
    The old 'cards' which Judaism sought to play as victims are no longer valid – the holocaust is so far in the past and has been rendered meaningless by Israel's similar treatments of the Palestinian people, that the only supporters for Israel and its actions today are those who will not or cannot see the truth of what Israel has become. If you want to deal with reality then deal with the reality of the debasement of Israeli/Jewish culture which saw many people rejoicing in the deaths of toddlers in a recent bus crash – and suggesting more of the same would be good! Anyone who does not question what has happened to a nation and a culture in the light of such a reality is indeed not simply dysfunctional but delusional.
    In this new world it has become impossible for propaganda to work as it did and the very simple argument I and others make is that as the Geneva Convention states – everyone has the right to live in freedom. The Palestinians do not live in freedom and it is world opinion which will ensure they do. All Israel can do at this point in time is come to its senses and begin negotiations for legitimate and final borders for itself which allows an independent, contiguous state of Palestine – which will have East Jerusalem as its capital. These are the facts of the argument the world holds as justice – it is not my argument – it is the argument of world opinion and of those few brave, wise and just Israelis who know that any other outcome spells the end of the Israeli state.
    What Israel needs is supporters for that cause – Your choice.