Anti-Israel Christians Ponder Divestment


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Both the 7.6 million United Methodist Church and 2 million member Presbyterian Church (USA) will ponder anti-Israel divestment at their governing conventions later this year.   Specifically targeted are 3 firms that ostensibly profit from the “occupation:” Caterpillar, Motorola, and Hewlett-Packard.

Perhaps with this battle in mind, Friends of Sabeel-North America (FOSNA), a chief anti-Israel advocate among churches, has hired a Presbyterian minister as its new organizer to reach a “wider Christian audience.”  Sabeel’s describes his goal as addressing the “increasing awareness among American Christians and the Palestinian Christian community and the principles required for a ‘just peace’ between Israel and Palestine.”

In other words, the organizer will rally U.S. Christians initially for anti-Israel divestment and more ultimately against any special U.S. friendship for Israel, with the final goal of deconstructing Israel as a primarily Jewish democracy.

The new Sabeel organizer is the Rev. Donald Wagner, who recently served at Eastern Mennonite University in Virginia.   He previously headed Evangelicals for Middle East Understanding, which seeks to disengage U.S. evangelicals from their traditional pro-Israel stance.  In the 1980s he headed the Palestine Human Rights Campaign.   Seemingly Rev. Wagner combines Mainline Protestant, evangelical and Anabaptist connections that will greatly enhance his anti-Israel work.

Mainline Protestant elites have been anti-Israel since the 1967 war.  They identify Israel as a Western, pro-U.S. power and colonialist victimizer, against which faithful Christians must labor under a Liberation Theology theme.  In contrast, evangelicals remain the largest pro-Israel demographic in America.  But increasingly the Evangelical Left is persuading evangelical elites (especially in academia and missions groups) who are anxious to disassociate from the Religious Right to identify with purportedly oppressed Palestinians.  And Anabaptists, such as Mennonites and Brethren, are pacifists and traditionally few in number.  But both left-leaning Mainline Protestants and evangelicals increasingly embrace the Anabaptist tradition to justify their contempt for America and its “empire.”

The Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theology Center in Jerusalem understandably wants to deploy FOSNA as its U.S. arm to appeal to all these key American religious constituencies.  Rev. Wagner seems ideal for the task.  ”I am very pleased to have Don leading FOSNA’s programs,” explained Sabeel founder and chief the Rev. Naim Ateek, who is a Palestinian Anglican clergy.  “He demonstrated long ago his passion for justice for oppressed Palestinians, and he has been committed ever since.”

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  • Michael

    Hmm so there people justify the muslims who occupied Israel and Jerusalem ,, and terms them as beautiful rose bushes … ohh these people are those who are tailored christains.

    And according to these people Israel is weed ,, by the way Israel has been given to Jews by GOD.. so now I need to understand was GOD wrong or these people are right ????????

    • JMI

      I wonder if you could please get GOD on a Skype call to confirm your claims? Oh – sorry – you say you can't? Then please SHUT UP!

      • stern

        But it's okay that the Muslims claim Allah is on THEIR side?

      • intrcptr2

        Physician, heal thyself.

  • Big Irish

    as a Christian…I find this beyond disgusting – shame on the supposed christians!

    • hereandthere40_Lucas Rokosz

      Shame on the same Chistians who support Israel regardless of their crimes.

      • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

        Can you post these crimes, please. Thank you

        • intrcptr2

          No, he can't; 'tis an argument from silence.

          • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

            Of course he cant.
            Israel is always under pressure.
            The crimes are committed by M-slims-as USUAL

    • intrcptr2

      wolves, my friend, not Christians.

  • batman

    I also am a Christian and in my understanding of God’s word it says to bless Isreal and pray for the well-being there of. God says in his word He is the same yesterday today and forever. To me this means we need to stand by Isreal!

  • Brujo Blanco

    These so called Christians are actually working on the future murder of Jews. They will not state this specifically but if successful they will be complicide in the next holocaust. These churches are engaging in pure left wing politics and I wonder why the IRS is not going after their non profit tax status. The IRS goes after so called right wing non profits on a regular basis.

  • choi

    These 'mainline' Protestants are nothing more than JEW-HATERS wearing a "costume".
    THESE are the DESCENDENTS of those who made sure that the U.S. and the Allies DID NOTHING to INTERFERE in the Holocaust.
    These are the same JEW-HATERS who put "RESTRICTED COVENANTS"(agreeing in writing that they would NOT sell the homes they were buying to Jews) into home sales and wouldn't "admit" Jewish-Americans to their "circle(s)".
    These are the SAME JEW-HATERS who when advertising for open jobs available to returning WWII GI's,had the phrase,"Jews NEED NOT Apply" in those job postings.
    One could go on ad-infinitum on HOW these ' mainstream' Protestant Denominations have been JEW-HATERS and now they CRAWL as the Jihadists "little helpers".

  • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

    From the Christian Bible:

    2 Timothy 3:5
    These churches: 'have a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away'.

    Enough said on these churches who obviously have ZERO clue from whence their faith came.

    • http://www.contextflexed.com Flipside

      Human beings came from the mud and slime. That doesn’t mean they should aspire to return there.

      • stern

        Who was it said "Better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"?

        Apparently it wasn't Mark Twain, but that doesn't really matter, it still applies to you.

      • Stephen_Brady

        How many of your relatives are "slime"? Just asking …

      • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

        'Human beings came from the mud and slime'

        Projecting, again-dear Flip ;)

  • stern

    The irony of all this is that if these "Christians" get their way and Israel is eradicated, the Christians of Palestine will be next! You only have to look at Bethlehem and Nazareth to see the future of Middle East Christianity.

    Why do these blinded bigots fail to see that the only country in the entire region with a Christian population that is growing is … yup, Israel!

    • zionista

      not "next" – Christians in muslim countries are being slaughtered and persecuted NOW. Funny how the Jew haters who frequent this site always overlook muslim atrocities

      • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

        They never seem to give a damn about what is happening to Christians in Egypt.
        Its just Jew hate and Christian hatred–both diseases.

    • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

      The Christians in 'palestine' have already left Bethlehem in droves; there used to be a populace of 68% Christians, now it is below 18%. Courtesy of M-slims/Hamas..etc..
      Obviously Christians and M-slims cannot live together peacefully.
      But, then, how could they?
      A Christian is supposed to accept A!!ah as their false God, so, I would have left too, OR stayed and fought off their Jihad against the true people of peace, Christians.

    • pat

      Because an anti-semite is an anti-semite, is an anti-semite, is an anti-semite…..and no matter what we do…they remain anti-semites!

  • choi

    Incidentally,
    This POLITICAL ACTIVITY by these 'mainline' denominations surely VIOLATES their 501c-3 Tax Exempt status.
    THEY should DIVEST themselves from their ANTI-ISRAEL activities or be DIVESTED of their Tax Exemption(s).

  • Stephen_Brady

    What most people don't realize is that the Left has its "Christians", just as we on the Right do. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) divested itself of investments in Israel, several years ago. The most conservative Lutheran denomination … the Missouri Synod … supports Israel. The ABA (American Baptist Association) divested, some time ago (by the way, Bill Moyers and Anthony Campolo are ABA). The Southern Baptists are strong supporters of Israel.

    The attitude of Christian denominations towards Israel depends on which side of the theological spectrum a denomination is on. Right now, Israel's best friends are evangelical Christians, of which I am one. But don't allow that to betray anyone's thinking. Among "Evangelcals", there is a Left/Right divide, also.

    • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

      That is awfully sad, Stephen.
      It is written that there is ONE Lord, ONE faith and ONE Baptism.
      So, someone is wrong.

      From Romans in the Christian New Testament:
      Romans 11
      17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

      God will not be mocked–obviously. This verse says it ALL.
      God cut off his people, according to this scripture, and he says if he could cut off his own, then he can cut off anyone.

      Pretty straight up.

      • WilliamJamesWard

        The sad part is that main line Christian denominations have been subverted
        by leftist, socialist, Communist agents from subverted seminaries where the
        messages of the Gospel have been perverted. Instead of Christian they
        foist Socialist doctrine to the faithful and continue to lead away from what
        the Bible teaches to a New Age forum. As and Evangelical I have little in
        common with most of the apostate Christian Churches…….I support Israel
        and those who do not do not know what the Scriptures teach and have
        a perverted view……………………………………………………………William

  • Marty

    I'm providing a report on my spite portfolio: having purchased shares in Caterpillar and Hewlett Packard, I will now add Lowe's (for dropping sponsorship of "All American muslim"). There are solid stocks that all provide reasonable dividends.

  • Herbster

    Another "Useful idiot." His religion, in my opinion, is not Christianity, but, ultimately, the state. He is railing against the roots of his "Faith." He needs to re-read the O.T. He forgot God's words the He will, "Bless those who bless thee and curse those who curse thee." This gentleman is your standard leftist hiding as a man of the cloth. For shame!

  • Nakba1948

    A heartening development. The true adherents of any religion embrace the plight of the downtrodden and reject the voices of violence and hate in their own community. True Christians recognize that Jesus (pbuh), a Palestinian, would take every nonviolent measure to alleviate the suffering of His people, as these churches have. The most devout among Jews (e.g., Neutrei Karta) reject the blasphemous, murderous doctrine of Zionism. Muslims who follow the Word of Allah condemn violent extremists who pervert Islam's eternal message of peace.

    • Nakba1948

      Oh, and by the way, pro-Palestinian rights and pro-peace don't make someone "anti-Israel." These churches are simply exercising their right to criticize Israel's brutal policies in the Occupied Territories. Does criticizing some aspect of the Obama administration's domestic platform make one "anti-American"? If so, the whole lot of you Zio-cons are unpatriotic (a status you already achieve by placing Israel's interests over America's). In contrast to these churches, I am legitimately anti-Israel; I reject the claim of Zionists to my ancestral lands. While I would prefer to see a one-state solution take root under nonviolent circumstances, I am willing to accept Israel's continued existence if Israel accepts the rights of my people to self-determination.

      • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

        The "Palestinians" are fine, they get 1500 tons of food, courtesy of ISRAEL every single Thursday.
        I think…
        I think Israel should say NO MAS.

        Zion is mentioned in the Holy Torah and Tanakh over 600x.
        The Quran is blasphemous against God.

        "Thou shalt NOT Murder"

        The M-slims cant even seem to abide ONE commandment, therefore God does not trust this people with ANYTHING of his.

      • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

        'If so, the whole lot of you Zio-cons are unpatriotic (a status you already achieve by placing Israel's interests over America's). '

        You mean how you place JIHAD over America-get lost you fraud.
        Go back to Stormfront and learn a few more lines of propaganda that we have all not heard already.

      • evy

        pardon me, what planet did you say you were from? Islam's message of peace? –peace if you cut off the heads of all those who don't see it your way. That's so peaceful…and don't think they won't do it to you, for any imagined infraction. I'll pray you be so frightened that you actually come to your senses. Get yourself a Bible and see what it has to say about 'self determination' for those who would deny Israel her right to exist. Just, pray to and for the God of the Bible to protect you while you read, Your Allah wouldn't like to see you discover the truth. Start with, in the beginning GOD (not Allah) and end with, even so come Lord Jesus (not Allah). If you honestly want the truth, God will show it to you.

    • stern

      Ah yes, the Naturei Karta. Funny how they represent less than half of 1% of all Jews – but you consider them the most devout. Clearly, then, you hold with the subjugation of women, the spitting on 8 year old school girls and so on.

      Interesting how you side with those so-called "Jews", who are so extreme, they've been excommunicated from mainstream Judaism, yet then you purport to support "Islam's eternal message of peace". Presumably, you are one of those "Muslims who follow the word of Allah", yet you support extremists.

      tell me, do you agree with Ahmadinedjad on Zionism? Sounds like you do. What happened to the "eternal message of peace" there?

    • Star_Tripper

      Jesus was a Palestinian…Islam's eternal message of peace…your Al-taqiyya (lying for the benefit of Allah) performance is well done.

    • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

      'True Christians recognize that Jesus (pbuh), a Palestinian'

      There is no "Palestine' according to historic Arab Muslims.

      “There is no such country [as Palestine]! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.”
      - Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader, to the Peel Commission, 1937

      “Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner…. they have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, even criminal.”
      - King Hussein of Jordan, 1960

      Jesus says in the Christian new testament that he is;
      [19] And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

      Matt.27">Matt.27

      [9] Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
      [42] He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

      True Christian people KNOW that Jesus is the King of the JEWS. Period.
      you are BLASPHEMOUS.

    • Ghostwriter

      At least Israelis aren't screaming "Death to America" every five minutes unlike your people seem to do. They aren't screaming for American blood. The Palestinians do that every single day.

    • intrcptr2

      Jesus was from Galilee, which is not in Palestine, according to the Romans who named the region. And he was Jewish. Oddly the Jews are awaiting a king while the tribal Arabs are not.
      And this "true Christian" recognizes that the Arabs are just as much invaders as the Romans before them. Ishmael was rejected as the son of the flesh.

      What Jesus IS doing is comforting his people, whom the Muslims are slaughtering like sheep. He is also counting up each and every one, recording them in his books. The coming judgment will not be pretty, or quick.

  • joy52

    What was left out was that lefty churches, so-called mainline elites like the Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, lefty Lutherans, etc. are losing members in droves. The Clintonoid followers will die off, just as the country is moving right. Where else can you go when the Left has spent it all? Divest all they want–does not matter where you are in line, islam will come for you, too. Ask Christians in the ME and Asia.

  • UCSPanther

    The LDS church is staunchly pro-Israel and pro-Judaism, and I am damn proud to part of that church.

    • Peter Neufeld

      Why do you SWEAR!!!!

  • Shadow Watcher

    Jesus was a Jew. NOT a "Palestinian" -that would be the equivilent of him saying he was a Philistine. READ the NEW TESTAMENT! Everything Jesus did and said was JEWISH!
    He went into the Synagogue every Sabbath! Quit reading propaganda and go to the source. Also; if you don't understand Judaism you'll NEVER understand Jesus.

    • pennylane

      If "…Everything Jesus did and said was JEWISH! …", his Jewish contemporaries would hardly have handed him over to the Romans for execution. Everything Jesus preached and stood for contradicted Jewish tradition, religion, law and custom and still does today. Islam holds Jesus, as a mojor prophet, in far higher regard than Judaism, which views Jesus as a wayward son and rejects the New testament.

      • intrcptr2

        Some Jews. And some Judaism.
        Or hadn't you heard, the church was created out of Jews, and the Bible was written by them, too.

        Perhaps you could show me what Jesus said that isn't Jewish?
        Ah, sorry, you just tried, and failed.
        Perhaps then you can explain how this contradicts Judaism;

        But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

        Islam does not know Jesus…

        • pennylane

          ..

          Jesus preaching ended the Old Covernant of Abraham between Jews and the Creator, raplaceing it with the New Covernant between "people of all nations" and the Creator.

          Romans 10:12-13: "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. For, 'Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

          Jesus preachings were blasphemy to his Jewish contemporarys, who viewed and still view themselves as an exclusive, chosen people.

          Romans 2:28-29: "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God

          Judaism has always rejected this amendment, holding on to an exclusive Covernant under Abraham.

          And yes, Islam does know and worship Jesus. The Quran mentions Jesus twenty-five times, more often, by name, than Muhammad. Jesus is considered to be a Messenger of God and the Messiah, who was sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl or Gospel. In these views on Jesus, Islam if far closer Christianity than Judaism. But Islam rejects the Christian view that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, that he was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind, an view similar to that of Judaism.

          Going by Theology, strictly Monotheistic Judaism and Islam are far closer realated to each other than Christianity with its division of the Creator into a Trinity of Father , Son and Holy Ghost.

          • intrcptr2

            Penny,
            Jesus preaching did not end the Mosaic Covenant, his death did.
            Jer 31:31-32
            Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD

            Dan9: 24
            Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

            Heb 9:16-17
            For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

            Perhaps you can explain how ALL of his contemporaries rejected him, since it was Jews (like Saul of Tarsus) who wrote the New Testament and preached him as The Son of God (Like John). I am perfectly aware that the political/religious leadership of the Jews rejected him, they were, and are still, awaiting a different Messiah. But then Isaiah said that would happen, and Paul places the blame for that squarely on God's shoulders. http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=R

            Since you are so well versed in the Bible then you know very well that Jesus' new covenant has not affected the Abrahamic Covenant, yes?

            Galatians 3:14-15
            That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
            …And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

            The Jews still are the apple of God's eye, not we Christians and most assuredly not murderous Muslims.

            You actually state that "Islam does know and worship Jesus". That, my friend, is shirk.

            How often Isa is mentioned in the Quran is irrelevant. That man in the Quran is not the one in the New Testament, nor is it the promised Messiah of the Old Testament. Mormons also claim to worship Jesus. But the character who shows up in the Book of Mormon is not the Jesus of history. Same goes for the Jehovah's Witnesses, who are far closer to you Muslims than even the Jews.
            If, as you ludicrously claim, Islam and Judaism are so much closer than to Christianity, then why do Muslims prefer to kill Jews so much? If they are so much nearer to each other, then why do Muslims wish to steal Jerusalem from the Jews; you know as well as I that the Quran expressly promises the city and the land to the Jews, and never once mentions the city by name.

            Let me ask you, Jews are waiting for a king. But Muslims claim that they recognize Jesus as the Messiah. But we Christians claim that Jesus was the Messiah, making him The King of the Jews. How can you be closer to them when you do not recognize the kingship of the Messiah?

            Also, who was the first king of the Jews?

          • pennylane

            You can't have it both ways intrcpt2. Jews who practice Christianity abondon Judaism. Christians who accept Judaism, abondon Christianity. There is no dual-membership in religion. Had Judaism followed Christ, it would have merged into Christianity and ceased to exist.

            The Christian doctrine of supersession holds that the Old Covernant between Jews and the Creator was passed on to Christianity through Jesus. The Jewish rejection of this notion is what led to centuries of progromes and persecution of Jews through Christians, culminating in the Holocaust.

            Theologically, Christianity is dependent on Judaism, while Judaism can get on fine without Christianity.

          • intrcptr2

            And by the way, you missed my last question;

            Who was the first king of the Jews?

            Come on, play nice…

          • pennylane

            The first King of the Jews?

            I'd go for Saul from the Benjamins, anointed by Samuel, first King of the United Kingdoms. But the unifier and creator of the Kingdom was David.

          • intrcptr2

            Saul, son of Kish.

            No.

            1 Samuel 8:7
            And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected ME, that I should not reign over them.

            And,
            most definitely,
            no; http://classic.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=k

            King David himself constantly calls God, King. And when the Israelites clamoured to Samuel for a king, God reminded him who they were rejecting; Lord God, King of Israel.

            This is one of the reasons that the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, must be both Son of Man and Son of God. Christians believe this, Messianic Jews believe this. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Jews all reject this.

            But it is only the Jews whose eyes have been blinded by God. All the other are fully responsible, and will be judged for their denial of the Christ. That would include you it seems.

            Please go find a Bible and read it, rather than all this garbage interpretive junk you're full of; it does you no good really.

      • Stephen_Brady

        "If … Everything Jesus did and said was JEWISH! … his Jewish contemporaries would hardly have handed him over to the Romans for execution."

        Correction …

        They would have handed Him over if they were part of the Temple establishment, which they were. Why did they wish to kill Him? He threatened the establishment's order of things. He did terrible things, like healing people on the Sabbath, forgiving the sins of a repentant prostitute, becoming angry at the disruption of temple holiness by the money changers, and so on.

        The establishment was all about things: money, doctrines, law, established orders, etc. Jesus wanted to bring people in contact with God. The establishment was about the what, and Jesus was about the Who.

        Also, I'm not about to re-consider my opinion of Christ based upon the beliefs of Muslims …

        • pennylane

          Wrong, the "establishment" was Judaism…

      • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

        Everything Jesus preached and stood for contradicted Jewish tradition,

        LIE.

        "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.
        Matthew 5:17

        Judaism IS THE LAW, you buffoon

  • Fred R.

    The minute Israel no longer has a Jewish majority, Jews will once again become dhimmis in their national home, as they were from 638 A.D. until 1918. Efforts to deconstruct the Jewish democracy have but one goal and that is the ethnic cleansing of Israeli Jews.

    Fred R.

    • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MAD JEWESS

      They have help from leftists.
      I pray for all right minded Jews that love God and the Torah and stand with them FOREVER, GOD help me.

    • Michael Raymond

      Fred, you are a racist who overlooks the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population. Read history before you spout your anti american calumnies.

  • evy

    Coming from a Christian Mennonite Israel-loving home, it hurts to see antisemite Mennonites. Partly it comes from failure to distinguish what parts of Scripture address whom. The Bible addresses Jew, Gentile, and the church of God (which consists of all 'born-again' believers -Jew or Gentile- in Christ Jesus as their own Saviour). When Israel is allegorized and confused with the church, something we call 'replacement theology' happens in peoples' heads. Scripture then makes no sense. The prophetic plan apparent in the Bible, disintegrates unless taken literally. Mennonites have historically weak teaching in this area, so are lead astray. Current mid east events are foretold in Scripture but not understood if not read literally. Yes, there is a 'form of godliness, denying the power thereof.' Antisemitism is diametrically opposed to Biblical Christianity. The Bible warns of increased Jew hatred until the Lord Himself intervenes. God told Abraham, I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee. He always means what He says.

  • Arius

    The individuals and groups that are associated with Sabeel are not Christian. Sabeel is a trojan horse, to subvert Christianity in the West by replacing the Jewish identity of the Old Testament with a Muslim Identity. The so-called church that Obama and his family attended is part of it. To see this happening with Protestant denominations, and rapidly, is frightening. Bat Ye'or is right. She has been warning of this for several years. All the change is against us. We are doing nothing to push back on Islam to change it. Another decade of this and the West is done for.

  • Fred

    We support Israel. I live in Utah and the Mormons love the Jewish People and Israel

    • Peter

      Maybe you need to get saved, born again by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ? God and Jesus love you but if you are not born again by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, then you deliberately choose to go to hell and burn forever. This is what God teaches us in His Word, the Bible. Pray like this, "Dear God and Jesus. I know I am a sinner. Please forgive me of all my sins. Jesus please wash away my sins with your shed blood. Dear Jesus please come into my heart and save me and help me to not sin anymore. Thank you God and Jesus for saving me from hellfire. Amen.

      If you prayed this prayer right now then you have become a "born again Christian right now." And then you can go to Heaven when you die.Otherwise you go to hell and burn forever.

      • intrcptr2

        That would be a much more profitable move.

  • Jayman

    The Palestinians are descended from two different groups. First, many Arabs immigrated to Palestine during the latter part of the Ottoman period and into the British period, because the Ottomans promised them cheap land, and because labor opportunities were available. Perhaps half of the ancestry of the Palestinians originates in Egypt, Syria, and Iraq and even farther affield, in places like Bosnia and the Caucasus. The other half of their ancestry is made up of indigenous people of Palestine, who are direct descendants of Jews who were forcibly converted over the years, first to Byzantine Christianity, and then to Islam. Genetic tests have shown almost identical genetic markers in both the Palestinian Arab and Jewish, both Sephardi and Ashkenazi, populations. So what we see is that foreign invasive powers have turned a part of the Jewish people away from their roots and against their own brethren. Many Palestinians have Jewish traditions that are practiced in their families that have been passed down through the generations. Isn't it time for the Palestinians to explore their roots?

    Now I'm not saying that the Israeli occupation is necessarily a good thing. There is much about it that I abhor. I hate the road closures, the seizure of grazing lands and orchards for settlements (many of them ugly), and the denial to the Palestinians of the opportunity to be citizens in a land they can call their own. I hate it when settler extremists pick fights with and injure or kill Palestinians. It needs to stop.
    At the same time, however, the Palestinians have created many of their own problems, supporting terrorism against Israeli civilians and Jewish targets around the world, naming city squares after terrorists who murdered innocent civilians, and the stupid, moronic denial of the Jewish historical and spiritual ties to the land. Palestinian society has much to apologize for with regard to making their own situation worse and thus hardening the attitudes of many Jews who used to be sympathetic toward them. They also have huge problems with the mistreatment of Christians, Gypsies, and gays in their midst, and I strongly doubt that an independent Palestine would give Palestinians the freedom to forsake Islam and to return to their ancestral Judaism if that is what they choose.

    As for these leftist anti-Israel Christians, they are blowhards. Their influence is limited to elites, because almost all of the churches involved are hemorrhaging in numbers, as they lose their younger generation, and this is true across North America, Europe, and Australasia. The ELCA Lutherans, Northern Baptists, United Methodists, United Presbyterians, Episcopalians, United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, and the mainline branches of the Mennonite, Quaker, and Brethren churches, as well as all of their equivalents in Canada, Britain, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, are contracting as their numbers shrink.
    These Christians have not only betrayed the Jews. They have also betrayed their own fellow Christians who are persecuted and massacred in Muslim and Marxist lands. The blood of the Copts in Egypt, the Assyrians in Iraq, and Sudanese, Chinese, and Pakistani Christians is in large part, on their heads. In addition, they have even failed the Muslims, for by kissing up to the Salafis and their derivatives, they have helped legitimize them as the spokespeople for Islam, instead of peaceful traditionalist groups (Yes, peaceful forms of Islam do exist, but they lack political power and more importantly, petro-dollars.). These Christians, by buttressing the Salafis, have deepened the hatred and tension between Christendom and the Islamicate.

    It is true that turncoat Jews do exist as well, such as the vile Gilad Atzmon (loved by the Quakers) and Israel Shamir, as the Natorei Karta, whose numbers are actually miniscule. There are ultra-Orthodox sects that don't believe in the State of Israel on religious grounds, but these sects would never DREAM of making common cause with enemies of the Jews, as the Natorei Karta have done. Among anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox sects, the Natorei Karta are reviled and despised.

    • paul huber

      who are Salafis, never heard of this term or group, not even in international dictionary. Also, there are many fair minded Jews who are very concerned about the future of Israel because of the present policy of the Israeli government toward the Palestinians. Many good films out there by Jewish Israeli filmmakers about the terrible treatment of Palestinians by israeli government, police and military..They are not turncoats and some are the children of the earliest pioneer zionists. Some arriving before the 1947 mandate. The present state of Israel is a clear example of why are forefathers here decided on separation of church and state. unfortunately

      there are more and more people around the world who are no longer sympathethic to Israel and have a genuine concern for the plight of the Palestinians. Apparently that now includes a number of Christian churches you label as left. Left or right it is a relief that some Christians are thinking and not excepting the racist and extremist government that Israel has become. The real threat comes not just from radical Muslims but especially from extremist Jews and Christians. You can't engage in warfare and call your opponents terrorists. When the US went to Germany at the end of WW II; and, dropped bombs on all the cities there, we weren't terrorists. in doing so we also liberated all the concentration camps. It looks like there is another concentration camp to liberate today and that is Palestine. Sounds to me like what you maybe calling the Christian right is supporting a government very much in the wrong. Nonetheless, I really appreciated your historical and ethnographical perspective, thanks.

      i

      • paul huber

        please don't think I would be supportive of bombing Israel, just believe when people engage in hostile warlike behaviour you cannot call your target terrorists. There are consequences to being in a war perceived or actual. thanks again.

        • intrcptr2

          How can you consider it a consequence if the war is merely perceived?

          That is a post hoc justification, which holds no water in logic or law. And it is the palis who are at war.

          Someone who targets civilians, quite often women and them unarmed, IS, by definition (And this includes Geneva, the UN, and international law) a terrorist. The only ones who need to worry about consequences are those who prefer war to peace and death to life.

      • SpiritOf1683

        If you think so-called Palestine is like Auschwitz, then you're clinically insane. Where was the luxury hotel and shopping mall in Auschwitz in 1944, doofuss?

    • Michael Raymond

      Hi, O' Ignorant One! You can spout all your illogic as much as you want but Palestine belongs to the Palestinians..period, irrespective of their genetic ties to the Jews or the converted ones. They killed thousands of innocent Arab Muslims & stole their homes before, during & after the Nakba. Zionism is a cancer destroying the beloved Near East and must cease its murderous activities. You dismiss the human rights injustices very nonchalantly & thus betray your racist or, at best, xenophobic attitudes. Zionism has such influence over our once-free Republic, due to ignorant & rather traitorous people like yourself. I bet you NEVER made commentaries on the USS LIBERTY(1967) or the killings of innocent Palestinian women & children by foreign-born "Jews" from Europe & the United States that DON'T belong in Occupied Palestine.

  • http://www.ceccanada.com Jacob Friesen

    These utterances come to you from the kingdom of Christ within me, Jacob Friesen, has the Father translated you in the kingdom of his dear Son: Colossians 1:13

    Isaiah 62:6-8
    King James Version (KJV) 6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, 7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. Warning: Zechariah 12: 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

  • RoguePatriot6

    I speak on behalf of Christ not conservatives or liberals.

    Hatred and murder is WRONG!!!! The end.

    You see, with God there is no conservative or liberal when it comes to obediance, you either choose to believe and obey or you choose to ignore and go your own way.

    As far as churches that support the destruction of Israel are concerned, if you can honestly support something like the senseless slaughter of Jews because they don't believe in the birth of the Messiah, then you are counteractive to His message. In doing so, you are also guilty of providing a pathway to the future attrocities surely to be committed against Christians in those nations and possibly ours. I don't believe in the Jewish faith nor do I support their genocide by these goons. They need to be dealt with like any other evil doer.

  • http://www.ceccanada.com Jacob Friesen

    Satan loves to keep his blinded so that they cannot see the glorious gospel of Christ, unfortunately this has happened and is happened amongst them that would belief that God is finished with the Jews, I dare say they should take a hard look at 2 chapter of 1 Corinthians, it is God's assessment re the spiritual wellness of both the saved and the unsaved: Psalm 122: 6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem; they shall prosper the love them; Isaiah 57: 21 There shall be no peace says my God to the wicked.

  • pennylane

    If we define religions via the fancys of small sectarian groups, we go around in circles. Messianic Judaism rejects the basic doctrine of Judaism, that the Messiah is yet to come. Messianic Judaism also holds Jesus to be the Creator, which contradicts Christianity's doctrine Trinity doctrine of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Like all sectarian groups, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Evangelists, Messianic Judaism holds the claim to being the "Real" church, stemming from the "First" followers of Christ.

    But Judaism never adopted Christianity, neither did Christianity ever adopt Judaism. Both denominations are autonomous systems of faith, creed and tradition. To Judaism, Jesus was a carpenter from Bethlehem. To Christianity, Jesus was the son of G+d, sent to mankind to atone for Adams sins. Messianic Judaism want's it both ways and in doing so rejects both faiths.

  • pennylane

    Bear with me my friend, but your whole approach has me somewhat bewildered. Christian Zionism always gave me the pangs and your Messianic Judaism concept does likewise. Both concepts require of Judaism to forfeit its direct relationship with the Creator through Abraham for the promise of a priority role "apple of his eye" , under Messiah Christ. Why should Judaism subscribe to such a concept? And why should Christianity, granted with a universal covernant for all mankind, be willing to grant one nation exclusive privileges?

    Amendment or enhancement teachings are nothing new in religious denominations. But in this case whe are dealing with a movement that simultaneously challenges the cornerstone teachings of two major creeds. – Highly interesting and sure worth futher study !

    As I have stated above – As long as Judaism sticks to its covernant under Abraham, it is in no need whatsoever of "perfection" through Christianity.

  • intrcptr2

    On, no, we can't have that now, can we?
    Hmm, let's see how this works again…
    Jesus preaches, by himself, and picks 12 followers (One of whom leaves). And within a few short years, what we today call Christianity is turning the Roman world upside down.
    Muhammad comes along, and by himself, convinces thousands of Arabs that polutheism is evil, AND the Jews and Christians lie about theirown holy books.

    Nah, small sectarian groups NEVER get things right, or create change.

    You are the one going around in circles, my friend, not me. I am perfectly clear that anyone who accepts Jesus of Nazareth as the promised Messiah of Israel has been forgiven sin and adopted by God as a beloved child.

    THE basic doctrine of Judaism I NOT that Messiah must still come. Even Rambam, when he compiled his list of 13 articles of faith, put that last. And not all Jews agree with that anyway.
    What makes one Jewish, aside from one's mother, is accepting the Torah given by God through Moses' hand. Messianic Jews most assuredly do not reject this, although, again, if you care to try; show me.

    Further, Messianic Jews do take Jesus to be the creator, just as John tells us in his gospel;
    John 1:1-3, 14
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Christianity likewise proclaims this. I find it utterly unbelievable that you have this poor a grasp of basic Christian theology. Unless you would care to demonstrate, from Christian sources, support for your line of thinking…

    I am struggling to figure out where you've learned what you think of Christianity, because what you describe ain't it.

    And frankly, comparing Messianic Judaism to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons is laughable. Jesus is Jewish, his first disciples the apostles were Jewish, Paul was Jewish. Believers were not called christian until the Gentiles in Antioch began trying to insult them, before that they were still Jews, who had accepted that the promise of Messiah, given to the Jews in the OT, had been fulfilled. And, if you'll notice, those sects conjure up other writings, or mistranslate the proper ones on purpose. My rabbi uses the KJV of the Bible, just like the Methodist preacher did when I was a child.

    I never claimed or implied that Judaism adopted Christianity, or vice versa. Other than an abject inability to read, I have no idea where you got that idea. And just how could "christianity" adopt the belief which spawned it in the first place?

    Please, next time I post a link, read it; Messianic Judaism does not reject Jesus' lineage, as a son of a craftsman. Nor does it reject Jesus' place as the Lamb of God, or the Lion of Judah.