Anti-Israel Christians Pray for Divestment


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Next week the international United Methodist Church, with 12 million members, will convene in Tampa, where nearly 1000 delegates will ponder whether to support anti-Israel divestment.

In July, the 2 million member Presbyterian Church (USA) will similarly ponder divestment.  The head of the Presbyterian committee of the Israel/Palestine Mission Network is contacting Methodist delegates encouraging them to sound the anti-Israel trumpet.

“This is an important time for those of us who have worked so hard for peace with justice for Palestinians and Israelis,” Carol Hylkema wrote.  Promising she was “watching/looking for news coming” from the United Methodists, she told them that their decision “will have some influence on the outcome” of the Presbyterian General Assembly. “We will covet your support and prayers at that time,” she told them.

No doubt.  A network of anti-Israel groups, aware of the symbolic importance of Mainline denominations backing their cause, is plotting feverishly for Methodist and Presbyterian approval of divestment. A recent confidential conference call among anti-Israel church activists revealed their strategies for the Methodist event.

About 20 leftist U.S. rabbis recently have endorsed anti-Israel divestment, which excited the church activists. Meanwhile, 1,250 U.S. rabbis from left to right have signed a letter opposing divestment. “It’s important for people who are concerned about Jewish relationships too, and help people understand that this is an interfaith effort that we are a part of,” explained one. They were also excited by support from the Israeli Committee on Home Demolitions [ICOHD]. “That’s another great connection from a group that is on the ground there in Israel and supporting this effort,” it was noted.

Conscious that United Methodism is global, with nearly 40 percent of its members are overseas mostly in Africa, the church activists emphasized their international outreach for divestment.  The church’s official General Board of Church and Society, which is lobbying for divestment, has even hired a Zimbabwean to liaise with African United Methodists.

Citing counsel from the U.S. Campaign to End the Occupation, one activist implored her fellow activists that when contacting Methodist delegates  “don’t alienate, so keep your politics in check, if you are talking to a conservative person and you are progressive, keep that in mind.”  And she urged stressing:   “We all support freedom and equality for all people.”

Unlike previous divestment initiatives, this latest round targets 3 firms that ostensibly profit from the “occupation.”  They are Caterpillar, Hewlett-Packard and Motorola.  “We have been very careful to focus only on companies that are directly involved with the occupation,” explained one activist, citing a 2010 trip when a delegation photographed U.S. equipment nefariously at work on the West Bank.  “Caterpillar is knowingly providing equipment that is used to destroy homes, more than 26,000 homes have been destroyed with that equipment, and to destroy water cisterns at orchards,” the activist complained. “The sixty ton bulldozers are used as a key weapon by the Israeli army in the Gaza strip and West Bank.”

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  • Bert

    The main argument against Israel is the false claim of "occupation". The Jewish leadership must bear the main blame for this because they have failed since the beginning to tell the simple truth about Jewish rights to the land. This is because most Jewish leaders are faithless secularists who lack religious backbone.
    Mr. Salomon Benzimra recently published his e-book, "The Jewish People's Rights to the Land of Israel". It meticulously documents all the legal rights to the land. However, the Jewish leadership is so self-debased that they refuse to utilize this valuable document and prefer to grovel and snivel and offer to give away more land to appease their enemies.

    • WilliamJamesWard

      How interesting it will be when "the time of the gentiles is over"……………………….William

  • Chezwick

    This is big, folks. Should these resolutions pass, it will create an avalanche effect, encouraging other institutions to follow suit. The goal is of course to bring Israel to its knees and force it into territorial compromises that will endanger its security.

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      This proposition just brings shame and disrepute onto the Methodists and their Socialist theology.

      These hypocritical Methodists have thrown out the Bible and placed it with Socialism.

      How many "anti-war" marches have you seen that denounced al qada, osama bin laden, FGM, anti-semtism?

    • ziontruth

      "This is big, folks. Should these resolutions pass, it will create an avalanche effect, encouraging other institutions to follow suit."

      Good. An Israel more isolated means an Israel less ready to trust in others for its security.

      "The goal is of course to bring Israel to its knees and force it into territorial compromises that will endanger its security."

      The end result, unintended by the divestors, of course, will be to bring the Jewish people back to calling upon their Father in Heaven.

  • misskimmy

    I wish I could afford a Caterpillar… I would buy two.

    • Nanush

      You could buy their stock. $109 a share. I made 60% on it in 2 years :)

  • Nanush

    Let these church activists begin by setting personal examples: By having churches and all their members pay rent to the native American nations upon whose land they are squatting. The nerve of these European expansionists, who daily enjoy the fruits of genocide and ethnic cleansing, yet deny Jews rights to their ancestral homeland… is just too rich.

    BTW, Hewlet Packer's Israeli subsidiaries invented digital printing. Please tell these divesters to divest themselves from their printers, and go back to using the old pin printers, with the tabs along the sides of the paper.

    • The Infidel

      Too ruddy right, I am part Blackfoot, so I think I shall take up land rights with these twerps. Oh wait, thats right, I am a conservative who believes in standing up, independant and making my own way in life, thats the difference between those who want everyone to pay their way and those who pay their own way. Pretty soon the entitlement mentality runs out of other peoples money.

  • montlasky

    It is a source of constant amazement that the chuches under United Methodists are so abysmally ignorant of historical facts and lack of understanding of the Islamists involved whom ,when it comes to the Palestinians, they believe are being hard doneby. Israel is the front line force of Christian protection. Christians world wide are the subject of Islamic disdane and hatred. They are afterall infidels whom the Islamists are determined to eliminate as surely as they intend eliminating the Jews. Jews and Christains are now starting to understand how really close they are religiously compared to any religious association with Islam. Therefore why punish Israel? The Israelis are their frontline defence. The world's Methodists can sleep well at night whilst the Palestinians send thousands of rockets into Israel almost on a daily basis. The Israelis have been in self presrvation mode for over 68 years. Who can blame them for whatever method they use against the Islamists to ensure their own survival and the survival of the Christian world.
    The Methodists must understand that "Israel is the [proverbial] canary in the coalmine". Don't hurt the frontline defence. If you do so, you shoot yourselves in the foot, if not the head!

    • Nanajan

      I am a 77 year old conservative Catholic woman who remembers the 1940's and the insane slaughter of millions of innocents, and I'm feeling deja vu. It astounds me that anyone living who has even the vaguest knowledge of that horrific era can take such a stand as these Methodists and Presbyterians. It makes me ashamed that they call themselves Christians….to me a Christian "progressive" of their ilk is an oxymoron.

      • elihu

        With all due respect Nanajan, I am a 70 year old Jew who not only remembers well the unwavering position of Rome on my country and its citizens during the 30's and 40's; but still holds the false, anti-Biblical view of "replacement theology" which you, who call yourselves Christians, purport.

        This false view is easily negated by even a cursory reading of Romans, Chapters 9,10 & 11). Oh wait, I forgot, Rome doesn't hold the Holy Scripture as the Word of God and final authority on all things Spiritual and eternal; for that, they follow the current German (once a member of Hitler's youth), 'vicar of Christ' as the final authority.

        • Abisja

          Elihu, you know the book of Romans well, and I praise God for that. In those chapters , it is also stated :" not all Israel is GOD"s Israel". I am a Bible believing follower of Jesus and certainly not a "replacement" believer. Want to read a good book – "A Woman Rides the Beast" by Dave Hunt from Berean Call. There you will see the difference between Rome and true Bible believing People of the living GOD.

      • Abisja

        Mam Nanajan, with all due respect, you obviously do not know the history of the Vatican in respect of Nazi Germany. That history is there for anyone t go and read. Thousands of Nazi war criminals were aided by the Vatican to escape through the well known "Ratlines" to South America. The atrocities in in Serbia committed by Ante Pavelic and the Catholic Croatian underground is well documented.Their deeds are too ghastly to repeat here – nuns and priests were even given medals by Pavelic; I will end wit just one quote(Archbishop Stepinac)"God, who directs the destiny of nations and the hearts of Kings, has given us Ante Pavelic and moved the leader of a friendly and allied people, Adolf Hitler, to use his victorious troops to disperse our oppressors…Glory be to God,our gratitude to Adolf Hitler and loyalty to our Poglavnic, Ante Pavelic". There is pages more…Pavelic escaped the allied forces via the "Ratlines" to Argentine and became the security adviser to none other than Catholic Dictator,Juan Peron.

    • rachaelamb

      A lot of these people are just antisemitic. Sadly,antisemitism has always been a problem in the churches. Another problem though,is that some of these people go to the West Bank under humanitarian pretense,and listen to the constant sob stories of the Palestinians,and believe everything they say about Israel,no matter how bad. Problem is there's usually 2 sides to every story,and especially when it comes to Israel. The Arabs complain about the security wall,but if the majority of them didn't support murdering Israeli women and children. The "apartheid" wall as they call it would have never been built in the 1st place. As usual,the Arabs problems are of their own making.

  • kim segar

    Tell the protestors to send back their cell phones too..to remember all that Job's and Bill Gates , both Jews gave the world..too many to count…these godless nuts need a lesson…

    • montlasky

      Where do you get your facts?????? What have you got against cell phones???????????? Don't you own one??????????
      I guess with remarks like yours you wouldn't touch a cell phone would you???????????????

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      Do more reading. Jobs and Gates, not Jewish.

  • Bob

    Has anyone considered rhat Israel is purchasing from US companies thus helping balance our trade and creating jobs in hte US, If Cat does not sell equipment to them,Israelwill be forced to buy from Japan or China. How iwill that help?

  • Bartimaeus

    You will find that the majority of Christians who support Israel hold to what is called dispensational theology. The Christian reformation of the 16th century recovered the truth of justification by faith and related doctrines but never really got clear as to the distinction between the calling of Israel and the calling of the church. This also caused a lake of clarity in eschatology. Dispensational theology was developed from biblical studies in the 19th century, but was rejected by many of the old line denominations. Replacement theology (God does not have a future for Israel) comes out of this rejection of dispensational theology.

    One of the purposes of the Christ at the Checkpoint Conference was to oppose dispensational theology. However, there was one lone voice that spoke up at that conference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Potf5l8KzI It was not well received by all, but it is well worth viewing.

    • elihu

      Amen!
      Shalom and Blessings to you…

  • SCREW SOCIALISM

    Any Methodists who are against occupation and live in North America (not Native Americans), pack up your crap and return to Europe, Africa, Asia.

    And pay restitution to Native Americans.

  • jordanariel

    When the Judgement Day they believe in comes to pass, and they stand before G-d, they will weep bitterly as He will tell them He does not know them.

  • Abisja

    No matter how many Presbyterians , Methodists or any other apostate denomination will meet in numbers where ever on planet earth, on the plight of the State of Israel or to invest or not – REMEMBER! One day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess – JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. May GOD have mercy on you!

    • Seeker

      If Jesus be LORD, then what his Daddy gonna be?

      • Abisja

        Seeker, To write a faceless blasphemous comment on the net is one thing – facing your Maker on the Day of the LORD, quite another.

  • RAS

    Forget the Presbyterians; they are a lost cause. They veered left back in the seventies and haven't figured it out since. How these churches can align themselves with the evil misdirected objectives of the Left is beyond me. They see this so called social justice as Christian virtue ignoring all of the non-Christian efforts and immorality of their allies on the Left.. I walked away from organized religion some time ago but not my faith. I'll be there with Israel in deed and prayer. The hell with everyone else.

  • WilliamJamesWard

    Marxists took over these Churches years ago and anything that comes out of them is Leftist Central.
    They do not use the Scriptures for their love fest sit in's on Sunday morning, feel good gatherings
    without the Gospels and total misrepresentation of what is found in them. Apostacy was predicted
    for these times and it is going on in spades with so many denominations that it is alarming but
    anticipated. What I am saying is that they have made man God and have lost their way completely
    and are in bed with evil in it's pernicious forms and should and some have dropped the name of
    Christ Jesus from their teachings and are merely Humanist Liberals worshiping themselves having
    lost the Judeo-Christian ethic………………….True Christians today support Israel…………William

    • H&R_ Barack

      amen.
      It is imperative that everyone who follows Jesus Christ understands that we are in a war.

      It's a war that is spiritual, but it may have physical consequences.

      If you're not aware that you are in that kind of war, you very likely have already been taken captive.

      If you are a pacifist in this war, you have been at least effectively neutralized. Neutrality is capitulation. There is no fence-sitting as the battle rages. Jesus said that he who is not with Him is against Him (Matthew:12:30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.).
      http://www.thebereancall.org/content/war-briefing

      • WilliamJamesWard

        The number of Americans that have not had a clue due to the headlong persuit of entertainment
        and pleasure is one third of the population. These people are slowly waking up and coming out of
        denial and are asking what has happened to our Nation, where has our American society gone?
        The truth be known, it is there, just sublimited by leftist obfuscation in the MSM and Hollywood
        and leftist subversion in schools and Churches and Unions and most every place you look.
        The big thing is there is and inner person in Americans that are to the core Judeo-Christian
        and not willing to become Socialist/Marxist slaves nor victims of Islam. The battle, spiritual is
        raging and will overflow into the flesh and created things soon, keep the faith………..William

      • Beth

        Wow…I pointed out the same Scripture (below) H&R. I had not read your post before posting my own words.

        My post included more Scriptures. Scriptures that I believe are very important to point out.

    • Stephen_Brady

      William, Methodism is dead, as it was conceived and practiced by John Wesley and his followers. Indeed, the Marxists are in the driver's seat, and it is having an effect of world Methodism, which is shrinking quickly, as younger Methodists leave the stale, dead churches for independent churches, which are mostly charismatic.

      I recently talked to a local pastor in the UMC, who told me that he believed that his denomination would be dead by 2050. It was a matter of simple math. As the older members die off, and younger members leave, the result is inevitable.

      True Christians support Israel, and I wear my American/Israeli Flag pin proudly, every day.

      • WilliamJamesWard

        You know Stephen we may not see 2050 as a Nation, my vision for the World only goes out a few
        more years. Exciting times in a way but it is about show time and I hope we are ready and durable.
        Believers know and all the rest will have to start listening and stand up for what is righteous
        or fall by the wayside. I think the days of incessant entertainment and diversion are over.
        Regards………………..William

        • Stephen_Brady

          I agree with you. In fact, the minister I talked about could not bring himself to give his own sister hope of heaven, as she was dying of cancer. Grief-stricken and guilty, he reached out to local Methodist ministers in their "holy club", and found out that they all agreed that when people die, they die "like a dog". These are the people leading the "flocks". These are also the people who will divest from Israel, and who will … in violation of the law … encourage their members to vote Obama, this Fall.

          The days are dark, but it won't last forever. We have Christ's promise for that!

          • WilliamJamesWard

            "encourage their members to vote Obama, this Fall." It seems that what voters have done to
            America in 2008, is enough to change Voters pamphlets to Recidivist pamphlets, considering
            the potential of Obama continuing another term. ………………………..Regards………William

    • Beth

      "it is alarming but anticipated"

      So true

  • Larry

    The United Methodist "church" has been pro-abortion officially even before Roe Vs. Wade passed – it is in no way associated with God, Jesus, the Bible, heaven or any of those good things, in spite of what they say.
    Of course their most famous member is Hitlery Qunton

  • dysgenic

    No Christian should support a Jewish state, since Jews are anti-Christian by definition.

    • Stephen_Brady

      If you believe that God does not keep His promises, I suspect that you are "no Christian" …

    • Mike Petrik

      Jews are not even non-Christian by definition, let alone anti-Christian. What an incredibly stupid remark.

    • ziontruth

      "No Christian should support a Jewish state,"

      It's not about supporting the Jewish State; the issue is these churches are opposing Israel by supporting her enemies. And that will be punished, count on it!

    • David

      I guess you have forgotten that all the disciples were Jewish.Almost all of the first century believers were a majority of Jewish believers, where leaders in Jerusalem were trying to decide how Gentiles fit into the fabric of the faith.Your logic defies reality.Not all Jewish people reject Jesus. There are a growing number of Messianic Jewish congregations all over the world.Never mind you have disregarded Pauls exhortation to Gentile believers in the book of Romans to make it a daily goal to witness to their Jewish brethren, because their acceptance of Jesus their Messiah will be life from the dead.

  • H&R_ Barack

    The World Council of Churches (WCC) and the National Council of Churches (NCC) have always tilted toward the LEFT socially and politically because they deviate from sound Biblical doctrine.

    Whenever we, as biblical Christians, think that things couldn’t possibly become more preposterous,

    Chrislam? Christian Palestinianism?? http://www.thebereancall.org/content/chrislam-chr

    • Beth

      "Christian Palestinianism?? "

      Here's what they don't get:

      You can not sit at the table that calls the Son of God an abomination (Koran: 009.030 – 037.151 – 037.152 – 019.088 – 019.089) AND sit at the Son's table too. Even a ten yr-old can understand, therefore, they are without excuse.

      • H&R_ Barack

        Beth
        QUESTION: Can we vote for a man who believes that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers? –
        Or that believes that Jesus and Satan are siblings? (see: Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).

        QUESTION: Can we vote for a man who believes that "God" used to be a man on another planet? references: (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, – Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses

        QUESTION: Can we vote for a man who believes that – "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man" – (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).

        or, that ….. There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).

        What does Romney's Mormonism Teach? – http://carm.org/teachings-of-mormonism

        Romney's Mormonism, claims it is the restoration of the true gospel and a revelation of the true God.

        Find out about ROMNEY's teachings of men becoming gods, temples, the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith who claimed to have seen God the Father. http://carm.org/mormonism

      • H&R_ Barack

        Beth: Are we on the same page?

        Q: What exactly Is your Soteriology?

        Soteriology is the study of the doctrine of (Christian) salvation.

        Soteriology discusses how Christ's death secures the salvation of those who believe. It helps us to understand the doctrines of redemption, justification, sanctification, propitiation, and the substitutionary atonement.

  • Schlomotion

    In keeping with the naming strategy here, shouldn't this article be titled "Coalition of Zionist Groups to Disrupt 'Methodist Divestment Conference'?"

  • sandykramer

    If they are "anti-Israel", then they aren't Christian.

  • http://www.senseofevents.blogspot.com/ Donald Sensing

    Exactly when did the UMC start moving "away from being a left-leaning and declining U.S. Mainline denomination towards becoming a more evangelical global church"? I see no evidence of it at all, at least in the U.S. branch. (I am an elder in the UMC.)

    • Stephen_Brady

      Agreed. In my local congregation … an independent church … there are about ten young families, all of them Methodists, who left the church because of extreme leftwing positions the church's leaders have taken. Indeed, there is a "minister" a few miles away from me who is a practising lesbian. Her church has gone from about 350 attendance to around 30, in just four years.

  • Ann

    JESUS WAS A PRACTICING JEW—WHEN THE ONE WHO LEFT TO BETRAY HIM THEY WERE HAVING A "PASS OVER DINNER" SO WHY WOULD ANY CHRISTIAN BETRAY THE JEWS!!! THEY ARE OUR BROTHERS!!!

    • Stephen_Brady

      That's true, Ann. And for two thousand years, Holy Communion has been based upon that Last Supper … the Bread, the Wine. As a Christian, I will defend Israel to the last, and I also recognize that God's promises to His people will be kept.

  • Beth

    In no way, is the methodist church Christian. PROOF:

    Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone – in – his – appointed – times. (Would Jesus ever deny this prophecy? No Way!)

    Jesus warned:

    Mat 12:30 He that is not with Me is against Me (there is no in-between).

    The name Israel came from God – not men. The name Israel is an eternal name. According to prophecy – Palestine's days are numbered.

    Thus…these Scriptures come to mind:

    Luk 13:26 Then shall ye (those on the left – Mat 25:41) begin to say (when He returns), We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

    Luk 13:27 But He shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

    They never understood the following and the teachers and professors of this world have done a superb job in mis-leading them:

    1Cr 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    Jhn 10:5 And a stranger will they (true Christians) not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

    • H&R_ Barack

      Beth – In Matthew:24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you." – Jesus warns that the last days prior to His return will be a time of religious deception:

      There are, Primary Essential Doctrine in Christianity and secondary (non-essential) doctrine.

      UMC are LIBERALS, to be sure, but I am not aware of Methodists' failure to meet essential doctrine criteria.

      For the last three decades, Dave Hunt has addressed many trends and teachings that have influenced the evangelical church, particularly in the United States. He is a wonderful source. http://www.thebereancall.org/content/seduction-pr

      There is good and bad in the Christian church. Believers in the United States have never experienced significant religious persecution–certainly nothing like what has taken place in China , India , or throughout countries controlled by Islam.

      This is a War Briefing, – http://www.thebereancall.org/content/war-briefing

      • Beth

        149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;

        twoedged sword:

        Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

        Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

        If you have His Word in your home H&R Barack? – what do you need them for? Are you not set free?

        It is a well known fact among true Christians….that God does not dwell in temples that men build.

        Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, (Is God a liar???) none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

        Ecc 3:5 [There is] A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

        (Do you know who the new mate is? Hint: Jhn 14:16)

        If you abide by Isa 34:16….

        Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

        You either get it or you don't . You are on your own…as am I. I have chosen to listen to E-V-E-R-Y single Word that proceedeth from the Mouth of God. And I have chosen to be a part of His temple….If He'll have me. My hope is to be called a 'stone' so that I can add strength to the temple of God. And I don't need the mumbo-jumbo that the preachers of this world preach – who – not only have not done their own homework…but don't know the Lord that I have come to know (and love).

        Here's the real test H&R Barack (for eternal life)….

        Are your leaders 'singing' the song of Moses? (Rev 15:3) And if you say (even to yourself – God knows) that you don't even know what that song is…well then…..as your friend in Christ…..I say, you'd best be looking in a different direction…if it is eternal life that you are looking for.

        If you don't know that song….then you don't know Him…..not according to my say-so….but according to His.

        Ask youself H&R Barack – are your preachers singing that song? Acceptance and popularity is great (in this world) but eternal life is far greater.

        • H&R_ Barack

          I am sorry Beth. Try reading my posts/links for content and context.

          My point in response to your remark was: "There is Essential Doctrine in Christianity and secondary (non-essential) doctrine. – UMC are LIBERALS, to be sure, but I am not aware of Methodists' failure to meet essential doctrine criteria. "

          I assumed you grasped sound Christian doctrine; Scriptural CONTEXT, and Biblical essentials. I don't have time for Scripture slingers.

          I may have wrongly assumed you understood the difference between Eisegesis, and Exegesis.
          Eisegesis – http://carm.org/dictionary-eisegesis
          Exegesis – http://carm.org/dictionary-exegesis

          also: How to Interpret the Bible – http://carm.org/how-interpret-bible

          • Beth

            "How to Interpret the Bible"

            Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: NO ONE OF THESE SHALL FAIL

            What….Did God lie?

            Psa 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

            Mat 4:4 But he [Jesus] answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but – by – every – word – that – proceedeth – out – of – the – mouth – of – God [not man].

            2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing THE WORD OF TRUTH [that would be the Scriptures].

            If you don't like the Scriptures – then you can call yourself a Christian till blue in the face (and the cows come home – a mystery phrase to this world)…but in the end….you will have violated the Law that says:

            Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain.

          • H&R_ Barack

            ORIGINAL CONTEXT:

            Beth said, (QUOTE) In no way, is the methodist church Christian."

            That is Ridiculous, Beth!

            I agreed (ONLY) that Methodists are "liberal churchians" .
            ~ However, I challenge any presumption by "Beth" that METHODISTS are not "Christian"!

            Ridiculous.

            My original question to "Beth":
            ~ CITE Methodists' aberrant ESSENTIAL Doctrine, madam. (or stick a sock in it)

            Beth is too lazy….or CULTISH to Cite why Methodists are "NOT Christian!"

            ……typical false religionist.

            They make claims and can't support them.

          • H&R_ Barack

            Reply to Beth: (QUOTE) "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain"

            NO ONE (quote) misappropriated "God's name." on this thread.

            Beth, Quote IT! – Foolish cult woman,

            Beth; Get over your silly aberrant self.

          • Beth

            "Try reading my posts/links for content and context"

            Maybe you should take your own advice…for see….all of my posts include words that don't come from me – but rather – the Lord that you claim to be worshipping.

        • H&R_ Barack

          Beth,

          Q: What exactly Is your Soteriology?

          • Beth

            NONE!

            That's the beauty of it. My Teacher was the Lord (thanks to my parents being too poor to take me to church). And so, I studied – on my own.

          • H&R_ Barack

            Beth: (QUOTE) "That's the beauty of it. My Teacher was the Lord (thanks to my parents being too poor to take me to church). And so, I studied – on my own. "

            Beth, If you have no Soteriology,…… how is it possible for you to claim
            "The United Methodists Are Not Christians"
            : ?

            Do you know how contradictory, and lacking of sound mind your statements are?

          • H&R_ Barack

            Q: What exactly Is your Soteriology? –

            Simply asks Beth how she believes she is "saved" .

            (LIBERAL ALERT):
            It has nothing to do with "your poor parents" madam. – It was an unambiguous question.

            If (as you claim) you have NO "soteriology" Ms Ignōrāmus…..
            It either means you don't understand the question, my posts confuse you, YOU are too PRIDEFUL to admit it…..OR, your CULT's next lesson plan was delayed.

            You SOUND EXACTLY like a "christian" CULT member that misappropriates the Bible.

            Soteriology is SIMPLY the study of the doctrine of (Christian) salvation.

            Soteriology discusses how Christ's death secures the salvation of those who believe. It helps us to understand the doctrines of redemption, justification, sanctification, propitiation, and the substitutionary atonement.

            If you don't know how your salvation is secured, How can you attack the Methodist church for not being "Christian"?

          • H&R_ Barack

            I simply asked "Beth" how she was "saved".

            Beth reply: (QUOTE) "That's the beauty of it. My Teacher was the Lord (thanks to my parents being too poor to take me to church). And so, I studied – on my own. "

            WHO was her parents' "lord" – Baha'i? Wicca? Islam? Paganism? Jainism? Zoroastrian?
            http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/

            The importance of knowing what the Bible teaches and making sure that our thoughts and actions conform to God's Word is underscored by warnings given throughout the New Testament.

            Consider 2 Timothy:4:3-5 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
            And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

            The Apostle Paul's prophetic exhortation speaks of a time when those like "Beth" who profess to be Christians will not "endure sound doctrine."

        • H&R_ Barack

          Reply to Beth, – -

          Beth: There is absolutely no "Beauty" in your non-Christian message.

          You sound like a confused cult mistress with a Strong's Concordance and DUMP TRUCK LOAD of misappropriated Scriptures.

          ….I am just another Charles Haddon (C.H.) Spurgeon kinda sound Biblical person.

      • Beth

        "There is good and bad in the Christian church."

        Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it [The Kingdom of God] any thing that defileth

        • H&R_ Barack

          "Cult" Mistress Eisegesis Beth:

          I may have wrongly assumed you understood the difference between Eisegesis, and Exegesis.

          Eisegesis, – (from Greek εἰς "into" and ending from exegesis from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out")
          ……….is the process of Beth's misinterpreting a text

          ……….or portion of text in such a way that it introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases into and onto the text.

          Confused Eisegesis Beth's:
          …are often used to "prove" a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation bias in accordance with his or her pre-held agenda. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis.

          While exegesis draws out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discover-able meaning of its author, eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text.

          As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while BETH's eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective.

        • H&R_ Barack

          Replying to Beth. "Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it [The Kingdom of God] any thing that defileth "

          CONTEXT! Beth, sorry, you misappropriate the Bible's context…

          Again. The Bible is not your secret phone book with your private revelations.

          Consider 2 Timothy:4:3-5 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
          And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

          The Apostle Paul's prophetic exhortation speaks of a time when those like "Beth" who profess to be Christians will not "endure sound doctrine."

  • M.J.

    My Bible says Philistia not Palestina. Big difference. The Philistines were Israel's arch-enemy and they were not Arab.

    • Beth

      The Oldest Bible that we use today – for understanding the language and for editing and for proof – is the late 18th century King James and Geneva. People back then spoke with "thee" and "thou" in everyday conversation. That was how they spoke back then.

      When Bible scholars realized that the language had changed greatly from the language of the original Bible from the 1500's (at the time the printing press was invented) – they knew they had to bring the Bible up to date with the language or the meaning of the Scriptures would be lost.

      The orginal Bible that was printed from the printing press has an old form of the English language – of which most english speaking people today would not understand. (Research it….I already have extensively)

      Any Bibles that were printed AFTER the late 1800s – were translated from the King James – the one with the "thees" and the "thous".

      Also – notice – (for more proof that what I'm sharing with you – is true) the most valid translation (according to scholars) of the koran – also dates back to approx. the same time. It also speaks with the "thees" and the "thous" – because that was how they spoke back then.

      The orginal Bible – Had the name Palestina – not Philistia. Research the people of Philistia (in the King James) and you will learn that those two people are not the same. There are some good things said about some of the Philistians (coast people – fishermen – look them up) – Do your own homework.

      But since the time of Moses – Palestina stood condemned and there is nothing but condemnation for that name…..according to the orginal King James (and Geneva – also translated at about the same time – which also speaks with the "thees" and the "thous").

      It is very important to study the history of the Bible – and the story of how King James gathered together a council for putting the Bible together in the first place – which was called the Geneval Bible – first book ever – that was printed on the first printing press (dates back to about 1450). Look it up.You will have to dig – but the info is there.

      Surely, England has records on King James (who spoke 7 different languages) – who was the first foreign leader that was ever able to convince the Greeks to realease the original letters of Paul – with the promise that they would be returned promptly – because the Greeks also realized – that the meaning would be lost if the language was not updated. Every language changes with time. That is a fact.

      Check the year that your BIble was produced. If after the late 1800s – then the King James (and Geneva) have the authority – because the later versions were translated from those two books.

      • H&R_ Barack

        Wrong. Check instead the original HEBREW texts, or Septuagint for OT passages. Oy!

        You have spiritualized and misappropriated an isolated passage that references Biblical Philistine!

        First, the original Hebrew word was used only four times in the Bible (first clue). The Hebrew Lexicon in Strong's Concordance (reference 6429) states that Philistim is a root from which we have the names Philistia. NOT PAL-ISTIA.

        There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world!

        There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed BY Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964…

        Beth, you're an hermeneutical & eschatological Train Wreck!

  • Beth

    ALL present day Bibles were produced from the Original King James (and Geneva Bible). If the name has been changed….it is corruption…for the Original King James (and Geneva) is where they got their info in the first place (Keep that in mind – always).

    Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, WHOLE Palestina [If you support Palestine - you are Palestine], art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone – in – his – appointed – times.

    Time will tell. And, we shall see.

    • H&R_ Barack

      Replying to Beth – (QUOTE) "ALL present day Bibles were produced from the Original King James (and Geneva Bible). If the name has been changed….it is corruption…for the Original King James (and Geneva) is where they got their info in the first place (Keep that in mind – always). "

      WHAT are you talking about? Specify it. Cite it. – So what.

      Beth, to your false claim: "ALL present day Bibles were produced from the Original King James"

      Beth: Did you know that Gutenberg Bible was completed sometime between 1450 and 1456?

      The 1380 Wycliff,
      1534 Tyndale,
      1539 Great,
      1557 Geneva,
      1582 Rheims,
      and 1611 King James…………..what is wrong with your mind?

      Having God's printed Word available to the public in the language of the common man since the 1530's is useless to those ….like Beth, who lack Godly Wisdom!

      btw beth: The earliest scripture is generally considered to be the “Pentateuch”, which are the first five books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy… though there is some scholarly evidence to indicate that the Old Testament Book of Job may actually be the oldest book in the Bible.

      Moreover, Beth, by 500 AD the Bible had been translated into over 500 languages.

      You ignorantly lump the KJV and the Geneva Bibles (historic horrors)…..

    • H&R_ Barack

      Beth: WRONG!
      You have spiritualized and misappropriated an isolated passage that references Biblical Philistine!

      First, the original Hebrew word was used only four times in the Bible. The Hebrew Lexicon in Strong's Concordance (reference 6429) states that Philistim is a root from which we have the names Philistia.

      There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world!

      There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed BY Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964… three years BEFORE the Arabs of "Palestine" lost the West Bank [Judea and Samaria] and Gaza as a result of the 1967 Six-Day War (which the Arabs started).

      Beth, you're an eschatological Ship Wreck!

      • Beth

        The methododist church has befriended Palestinans – that's a fact. The Palestinians call the Son of God an abomination. That's also a fact.

        So – you go figure for yourself H&R_ Barack – where it is you stand with the True Son of God.

      • Beth

        The palestinaina call the Son of God an abomination. That is not acceptable to ANY true Christian – no matter what you claim h&r. It never was…and it never will be.

        • H&R_ Barack

          Replying to false gospel, Beth:

          The truth is that Jesus did not come into the world to engage in political, or social action, nor did Jesus Christ encourage others to do so in His name, Beth.

          Jesus never said a word to anyone about Palestinians – because "Palestinians" did not exist!!!

          Jesus never mentioned the oppression of the Roman Empire.

          ~ Jesus never rebuked Caesar or Herod for their corruption. He was silent.

          Jesus is Messiah who was looked for by the Jews according to Bible Prophecy (that you mis-appropriate according to your hatred!) –

          Beth: While addressing not a word to the political leaders, ~ Christ rebuked the religious leaders continually.

          In contrast, Beth attacks with a broad undiscerning hammer, and attacks believers. She expends much of her web space and time trying to sway others for unity against Palestine under her False banner of "Christianity" and her false love that becomes one of the chief means of legitimizing the deceptions of the last days!

          • Beth

            I have never attacked believers. You can say so though – if that makes you feel better, it makes no difference to me.

            The Palestinians call the Son of God an abomination. That is a fact. Another fact: You can not sit at the Son's Table – AND – sit at the table that calls Him an abomination. Simple logic would tell any sane person such.

            You either hear the following Scripures h&r – or you don't. I really don't care. All I care about – is that I have heard them:

            Jhn 10:5 And a stranger will they [True Christians] not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

            1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

            1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

            That's the bottom line in True Christianity mr. h&r. You, nor I, can change that fact. And another bottom line: nor does a True Christian sit with those who deny those words.

          • H&R_ Barack

            Beth said (QUOTE) "The Palestinians call the Son of God an abomination. "

            Yes. Allah is a false god of man’s making and is nothing like the God of the Bible.
            The collective UNSAVED WORLD Rejects Jesus Christ! That is the point of the Gospel.

            Romans 3:23 – " for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,…..
            24 "and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

            Jesus came to SAVE the World, through His GRACE!

            WHAT did YOU do to earn your salvation (IF you are saved)?
            Grace is unmerited, Beth.

            You debase Christ's message of GRACE by parsing the standard of salvation according to your hang-ups.

            Beth said (QUOTE) "You either hear the following Scriptures. or you don't. I really don't care. All I care about – is that I have heard them"

            Your devotion and primary concern with your own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others, is plainly noted.

            The Bible is your phone book without regard to the CONTEXT or God's original intent.

            There is no Light in you. . zero, nada.

  • Beth

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah

    Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD"

    Prophecy Fulfilled:

    1Jo 2:27 But the anointing (His Word) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and – ye – need – not – that – any – man – teach – you

    Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (from those such as H&R_ Barack)

    Bottom line: The methodist church sits with Palestine – and you can not sit with those who call the Son of God an abomination AND sit with the Son also.

    I have no further comment

    • H&R_ Barack

      Beth said, "Bottom line: The methodist church sits with Palestine – and you can not sit with those who call the Son of God an abomination AND sit with the Son also.

      "I have no further comment " – LOL!

      John: 3:16
      "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

      Ephesians 2:8-9
      8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
      9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
      ~ New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      Your theology is aberrantly filtered through your hang up with the Palestinians. It causes you to misappropriate God's Word to suit your prejudices.

      Much false doctrine and error has come through your exact method of isolating passages, misapplying Scripture where it does not belong, or assigning unintended meanings; frequently this is done by persons who pride themselves in their "own" revelations.

      • Beth

        Yeah – right, H&R

        Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

        Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

        God hated Esau. Did He sin?

        You either hear His words – or you don't.

        But I realish in the fact that you provide an opportunity for the Truth to be spoken.

        • H&R_ Barack

          Beth: Consider, The thief on the cross?

          REAL TRUTH:
          John: 3:16
          "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. "

          The thief on the cross with Jesus is a favorite Bible reading, it displays the forgiveness and GRACE of the Gospel in a mighty way!

          Ephesians 2:8-10
          "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —
          ~ and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
          ~ not by works, so that no one can boast.

          For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

          Beth is an unsettled tare who spews her false gospel based on her lack of Biblical understanding, that is fueled by her visceral hatred of Palestine.

          Beth: Your message denies Christ.

          You have spiritualized and misappropriated the Bible in foul ways, madam.

          You preach a False Gospel.

          You are a religious tare, madam.

  • H&R_ Barack

    Beth claimed (QUOTE) "In no way, is the methodist church Christian"

    Beth please CITE specific Methodist's flawed Essential doctrinal anomalies supporting YOUR CLAIM that "Methodists are (quote) "no way 'Christian' "

    Jesus gives us the antidote and the preventive measure that will protect a believer from being influenced and "taken captive" (2 Timothy: 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.) by an increasing number of temporally oriented trends and movements today:

    "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free"
    (John:8:31-32 [31]

    Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

  • Beth

    I do not belong to any cult – never have. I don't belong to ANY group. I stand with the Scriptures and I let them speak for themselves before all (a rare act among present day christian groups – Is this not so?):

    2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is – of – any – private – interpretation.

    Again….

    Prophecy:

    Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me

    Prophecy fulfilled:

    1Jo 2:27 But the anointing (His Word) which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU (what part of that fulfilled prophecy are you having trouble understanding H&R_ Barack?). Do you not understand – that those Words of His ….set you free? from this world? Can you not see that you are protected by not being in any group?….of which any thug can join? (and have in the past throughout time?).

    Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail (what part of that do you not understand H&R_ Barack?)…..

    none shall want her mate (do you know who the new mate is? – the new comforter? Do you know who it is? If not – and only you truley know – then start looking for Him in His Word – for see – the Scriptures promise – "No one of these shall fail"): for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them (the stones – As there is a time to gather stones together and a time to cast stones away).

    (For all others who are reading this – Know…that before Abraham knew the name of God – he was called "Freind of God":

    Exd 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (there are arguments about this name – but that is a seperate issue) was I not known to them.

    So don't let it concern you if you haven't discovered the New Stone yet:

    Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and IN THE STONE A NEW NAME WRITTEN, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    You have falsely accussed me, H&R_ Barack, of being in a cult. And if the righteous are barely saved – where does that leave the rest of us? Research the punishment of those who are kicked out of their graves (Isa 14:19) – for not all will be in their graves when He comes to call. You can start with the name Josiah. I don't believe you know anything about that angel of God and his timing – and the fact that he is due. Hint: He is not the spirit of Melchizedek.

    You will learn to be more careful with your words – should you decide to do some research on these facts that I have shared with you – and if you have the Book of the Lord – you will see that all I have shared is true.

    When it comes to eternal life – you're on your own. So am I.

    1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

    1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

    • H&R_ Barack

      Beth: (quote) When it comes to eternal life – you're on your own.

      Salvation is based solely on faith in Jesus Christ. Nothing else.

      Nearly 200 references to faith or belief are stated as the single condition by which we are saved. That faith is placed in Christ as ones substitution for and Savior from sin's penalty.

      John: 3:16
      "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

      Ephesians 2:8-9
      8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
      9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
      ~ New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      Beth: The Bible was intended to communicate truth, and when properly interpreted it yields a system of doctrine which is Harmonious and NOT Contradictory. It imparts Light, not confusion. You followed with two unrelated passages demonstrating a flawed theology and poor hermeneutic skills.

      Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is NOT a ten pound hammer!

      • Beth

        Jam 4:4 whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

        Go figure h&r.

        • H&R_ Barack

          CONTEXT!

          Beth: The thief on the cross?

          John: 3:16
          "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. "

          You are a religious tare.

  • Jim Figgis

    I was pro-palestian while I visited Jerusalem. I came home and read books by Derek Prince and David Pawson and saw clearly that th Lord will return to Mt of Olives as the Bible says, and take command of His people as they face and defeat all nations who come against Israel. Matthew 23.39.