UK Atheists Realize Islam is the Only Religion They Can’t Criticize

Daniel Greenfield, a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Center, is a New York writer focusing on radical Islam. He is completing a book on the international challenges America faces in the 21st century.


StephenFry-741836

In the UK, Richard Dawkins learned what Bill Maher learned in the US, that liberals love it when you make jokes about Judaism and Christianity, they’ll even sit politely for some cracks about Buddhism, but if you question Islam, then you’re a bigot.

Then Stephen Fry stepped in to defend Dawkins with a since-deleted tweet which said, “Oh, have a look around the world and see them slaughtering each other, let alone others. So charming to women too …”

The outcome was predictable. Fry, who if you don’t know who he is, you can think of as the UK’s version of Bill Maher, though that comparison is completely inaccurate on so many levels, responded with a clumsy Tumblr post which praised the imaginary Islamic golden age, but claimed the right to be able to criticize all religions without being dubbed a HATEFUL ISLAMOPHOBE.

Anyway, I made the fundamental mistake of tweeting (just to show I wasn’t the coward they assumed I was) that of course I was against those Muslims who slaughtered, bombed and treated women in such charming ways.

Now the entire seesaw tilted and I was bombarded with tweets saying mostly stuff like”:-

“Disappointed that you are an Islamophobe, Stephen. Thought better of you.”

Huh?

Sometimes it’s just a reflex tweet from someone who hasn’t put any thought into it, on other occasions the tweet claims that my saying a single word against any kind of Muslim is Islamophobia of the kind that feeds the vilely racist bigots of the EDL and BNP.

The squeezed liberal finds himself in the position that he cannot criticise Islamofascism because it’s somehow “racist” (although Islam encompasses many many races) or because it encourages acts of violence against innocent law-abiding honourable Muslims, which I would never for a second endorse. It is a topsy-turvy smothering of debate and an Orwellian denial of free-speech to declare that speaking out against violence will cause violence.

That’s actually quite correct.

Fry exposes the dishonest equation that Muslims are forever victimized and therefore to criticise Islam is to victimize them. It’s an absurd self-pitying bit of nonsense with no basis in reality.

I am afraid of anyone who hates me and everything I stand for and wants me and the civilisation I grew up in destroyed. I am afraid of any state or religious endorsed brute squad that suddenly smashes my door down at three in the morning and drags me to the wall to be shot. I am afraid of any group of people wherever they’re from and whomever they do or don’t worship who see justification for explosions that cause human blood to run like rivers down the streets.

Ah, but do I believe that all Muslims want to see my civilisation destroyed? That they are all bombers in the making? Of course I don’t.

The fact that I need to go through this absurd liberal court of inquisition in which I have to repeat these mantras is what, as Peter Griffin would say, really grinds my gears:

“I promise I do not think all Muslims are fanatics.”

“I go out of my way to smile at them when sitting opposite them on the tube.”

“I think it is terrible the way a whole community is distrusted because a fanatical few.”

Do I hate Muslims? Absolutely not. Any more than I hate Christians. Or Jews, or Hindus, or anyone on account of their beliefs, or lack of them. I just hate, really, really hate the idea of being hated. Of being in someone’s black book. And there may be only a fanatical few Muslims, just as there only a fanatical few Christians, but boy – the damage they can do. The hatred they can foment.

So it comes down to this.

I am not an Islamophobe:

I am a violentsuicidallyfanatichatefilledkillerofpeopletheyhaventevenmet-ophobe. And that group might easily include Americans, Russians or Britons, come to that.

There. I hope that’s clear.

Despite the whole militant atheism bit, Fry feels the need to praise an imaginary Muslim golden age and then to insist that the vast majority of Muslims are perfectly fine. It’s just a tiny minority of extremists.

Inquisition accomplished.

  • Christopher Riddle

    Whay does”Islam” and”Gay Liberation”have in common?IT’S THEIR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Boots

      Actually Islam and liberalism in general have the desire for complete control in common. Islam literally is submission. Islamists demand submission to Allah… liberals demand submission to government… and yes… you’re right… gay activists demand submission to their agenda. Funny that liberals and gay rights activists ally themselves with Islam and yet they’d be the first to be murdered by the Islamists if Islamists had control. Liberals deserve to live under Sharia… I won’t.

      • Christopher Riddle

        The GOOD thing re:Liberals living under Sharia is that they wouldn’t live long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • Boots

          Thank you for the laugh… now… how long before some liberal troll accuses us of wanting to kill liberals… instead of us who are being optimistic and always looking for the good in a situation?

          • Christopher Riddle

            Not LONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Jon Newman

      Moron

    • Glenn Partridge

      You should try thinking before you put your mouth into gear.

  • Marie Dean

    Well, some Catholics and some atheists have this in common-we want freedom of speech and freedom from the thought police. If a person cannot openly discuss real problems in a culture or civilization called The West, we are in trouble.

    • defcon 4

      BUt islam is fascism so it is incompatible w/what you desire.

  • LibertarianToo

    Inquisition accomplished indeed. It’s interesting that the likeable and well-intentioned Mr. Fry thinks it necessary to insist that the group of violent killers he is afraid of includes, ” . . . Americans, Russians or Britons.” Yes: the Fort Hood murderer was American, the Boston Marathon murderer was Russian, and of course “Britons” now includes murderers-in-broad-daylight as well as groomers of underage girls and gang rapists. All they have in common is Islam.

    • Free-Thinker

      you are so gullible that you swallow all what you see in your tv set, just search over google and dig little bit deeper , the government control the media , they show what they want you to see, you don’t see America in the name of war on terror killed million of civilians in Iraq ( just to take over oil ) millions in Afghanistan , and now trying to put her leg in the matter of Egypt and Syria . What policy they are following you don’t see that, you just closed your eyes , and you are viewing the muslims from a prism that the provided you .

      • JoJoJams

        There weren’t “millions” killed in Iraq, and the U.S. hasn’t received squat in oil or revenue from Iraq. the Chinese have more oil contracts there, for crying out loud! But keep screeching your creed. I’m sure there’s some fool somewhere who will believe you.
        The “prism” is see islam through is their own “holy” books, doctrines and ways, and the example of their “prophet”. Try reading it all for yourself, and maybe you can open up your own closed “free thinking” mind!

        • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

          Brother, please enlighten me about the Quran, Hadith, and Muhammad. I am eager to know your viewpoint. & if U don’t have one, better b silent.

          • JoJoJams

            Where would you like to start? You know mohammed is the islamic “perfect man”, to be emulated, to the point that tens of millions wear those god-awful stupid looking beards, like he allegedly had. You know he married Aisha when she was 6, and consummated that marriage when she was 9 (and I could care less if she menstruated or not – she was a CHILD! — consequently, muslims in muslim countries emulate that…). Mohammed had slaves, and since sharia outlines the treatment of slaves, per islamic doctrine, slavery is allowed – and it was the force of the western world that stopped slavery – but as islam grows in power again, so, too, will slavery. Mohammed made treaties with the Jews of Saudi Arabia – then promptly broke those treaties when he was strong enough, using the excuse that it was the Jews who broke the treaty. Not to mention the quran and hadiths and all islamic doctrinal jurisprudence teach a hatred for Jews. Further, after breaking the treaties and killing them men and boys of the tribes, he took the war booty, effectively raping one of the woman the SAME EVE after killing her husband and father. I could go on and on about the perverseness of mad mo, and I could care less that it was the way things were done in that age – the PROBLEM is that since muslim fanatics (read: pious muslims) believe he is the perfect man, to be emulated, then acts such as these and far worse barbarism are committed throguht the world. Per sharia, homosexuals should be killed. Mad mo himself said, “If anyone leaves his (muslim) religion, kill him”, effectively proscribing apostasy laws for ever enshrined in islamic jurisprudence. Many islamic nations still stone adulterers and cut off the hands of thieves, etc. ad nauseum. On and on. This is just a small list of things of which I could write a book regarding the evil inherent in islam. What would YOU like to know? And please, I’ve debated many a muslim, some of them actually honest and decent sounding people, but they all agree in what I’ve stated – however they would inevitably put some “holy spin” about how what and why things were don were “holy”. And again, the problem is those that feel they are supposed to emulate those beliefs and ways TODAY, in this day and age. Islam is evil doctrine – a cult. Proven by the actions and deeds of the evil “prophet” mohammed. A man unlike any prophet before or since – due to his partaking in the “ways of the world” around him, and enshrining them in islamic law. Not to mention Jihad – perpetual war against the world of “unbelievers” around them – which is why wherever muslims gain a foothold, “terrorism” (the ways of the prophet mohammed – “I have been made victorious through terror” – mohammed) abounds, science and knowledge decrease, and ignorance and poverty increases – to the detriment of the entire world.

            Mexico (Mexico!) transcribes more books in a year than the entire muslim world. Islam has produced a dozen nobel prize winners, whereas those “evil JEWWWSS”, comprising a small percentage of the world by hundreds of millions less then islamic barbarians, have HUNDREDS of nobels to their proud name!
            Islam is evil – pure and simple.
            Want more? Ask, and ye shall receive.

          • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

            @jojojams: Brother, I could easily have used derogatory words against u just like U but me being a Muslim have been taught to be in gentle in speech. I never felt
            beards stupid. & all the prophets & Jewish Rabbis, & early Christian missionaries, & Hindu sadhus, & Renaissance scientists sported beards. Moreover, keeping beards is scientific. & Islam preaches scientific practices. There are doubts about her actual age at consummation of marriage being between 9 to 19 years. & Before Muhammad, Aisha was already engaged to another man before being engaged to Muhammad. So that shows that whatever be her age, it was the accepted norm then. None of Muhammad’s critics at that time raised this issue(which indicates that her age must have been nearer to 19). Islam was the first to give
            slaves rights, that too innumerable. It made it a good act and an atonement for sins to free slaves and Zakat was introduced for the freeing of slaves themselves. Many
            of the early Muslims were slaves. Had it been discriminatory, they wouldn’t have become so. Islam never advocated slavery & its stance(freeing them, zakat, etc..) was meant to finally lead to abolition of slavery. Immediate abolition of slavery would have made the unskilled slaves starve to death. Instead the masters were ordered to feed them, clothe them as they did, take care of their medical benefits, etc. denying which the slave may need to be freed. Who taught that in the 7th century?? The Jews themselves broke the treaty by committing treason as is well known even after promising unity in case of an attack. Islam only rebukes the erring Jews. In fact, Islam goes out of turn to mention that righteous Jews will go to heaven along with the righteous Muslims. Jews were always treated fairly in Muslim countries as The People of the Book and they flourished. They were given shelter when they faced persecution from the Christians who treated them cruelly. Never in Islam have boys been executed as they are juveniles. Only adolescent males are considered adults & liable for penalties. Muhammad never raped a woman & what do u mean by effective? A pervert would never marry a twice widowed lady 15 years elder than him & remain solely with her till her death when he was 50 years old. All his wives were widows or divorced except Aisha. & do not equate Muslims with Islam. Muslims do many wrong things nowadays which doesn’t make Islam imperfect. Homosexuality is bad. It is bad
            for the society as well as for health. So nipping it in the bud is the way forward. The Quran nowhere advocates death penalty or any other worldly punishment for
            apostates. Adulterers are bad & so are thieves & so deserve punishment. It is the lacklustre attitude of the west towards them that emboldens them. The theft rates in Arab nations is very low because of these strict laws. There is nothing wrong that has been enshrined in the Islamic laws. & U don’t seem to know the meaning of Jihad. Jihad means struggle. It encompasses one’s fight with his own deficiencies, care for his parents, etc. & this is the greater Jihad only if u knew. Wherever Muslims have gained a foothold, wealth has followed, whether it be the Arab land, or the Hindustan under Muslim rule or Spain under Muslims. Science & culture flourished under the early Muslim Rule for many centuries in Arab, North Africa, Spain etc. when the Dark Ages had engulfed Europe. It was the advances in the Muslim world that was a major driver in the Renaissance in Europe. What source do u use to show those transcription figures? Leave alone the Muslim world, Iran itself publishes more than twice the number of books than Mexico. I appreciate if Jews have got a lot of Nobel Prizes & I will reiterate that Islam doesn’t classify all Jews
            as evil. But remember that the Nobel Prizes were instituted in the 20th century. So what about the scientific achievements before the 20th century? If Isaac Newton didn’t get a Nobel Prize, does it make him lesser than any Nobel Laureate today?? Similarly, Aryabhatta(a Hindu) and Al-Khwarizmi and Avicenna were not born in an era of Nobel Prizes but their achievements surpass many. Stop reading anti-Islamic literature brother & instead try to instead understand the true Islamic spirit by reading from Islamic sites or secular/neutral sites, I hold no grudges against any religion as I am a Muslim. U seem to b an atheist..

          • JoJoJams

            Busy day today and cant respond, but please do check back in tomorrow afternoon and I will have a reply for you.

          • JoJoJams

            “@jojojams:
            Brother, I could easily have used derogatory words against u just like U but me
            being a Muslim have been taught to be in gentle in speech.”

            That’s fine. You call it your way, I’ll call it mine. You’re only the second one out of hundreds who used “gentle” speech. I’m sure you’re “man” enough to take having your beard called stupid looking, or that the religion you follow is quite the barbaric one, as exhibited by tens of
            millions of your co-religionists the world over. Trust me, I won’t take offense if you call some of our western ways “barbaric” or ridicule something in our culture. We’re men who, for the most part, can control our emotions, here in the west.

            “I never felt beards stupid. & all the prophets & Jewish Rabbis, & early Christian missionaries, & Hindu sadhus, & Renaissance scientists sported beards.”
            You misconstrued what I stated. First, I don’t have any problem with some styles of beards – some look pretty cool, though I don’t wear one myself. Secondly, when someone in our western culture says something “looks stupid”, they aren’t talking about the mentality of it –
            they mean esthetically. In other words, the style of beards that muslims wear, to the western esthetics, looks “dorky” and “ridiculous”. Capiche? I See now that you look at those ridiculous style of beards in muslim culture like the western culture looks at white coats and dorky eyeglasses as being a look that a “scientist” would wear. See the difference?

            “Moreover, keeping beards is scientific. & Islam preaches scientific practices.”
            How the hell is having a beard “scientific”, other than as a ridiculous stereotype similar to the white lab coat and dorky eyeglasses of the stereotype for the western scientist? Any Neanderthal with XY chromosomes can grow a beard. And don’t tell me islam preaches “scientific practices” when mohammed himself said drinking camel piss was a cure for some things and beneficial, and that it’s aok for first cousins to marry, when REAL science shows that that close of inbreeding (marrying first cousins) leads to a higher rate of deformities, mutations and schizophrenia. And that’s just two things out of many in which islam has no clue about science. Lmao. Further, if islam was so scientific, then my earlier post/point about the extreme lack of Nobel prizes for muslims was part of the disproof regarding islam and science. Again, my original hypothesis appears much more realistic and accurate, based on history and the
            actual state of “science” in the entirety of the muslim ummah, throughout ALL muslim nations. To wit: the alleged “golden age” of islam was truly only due to them taking over more advanced nations and peoples – such as the Persians, or the scholars of the Byzantium
            empire, themselves leftovers of the fallen Roman Empire. Due to the extreme nature of Islam, convert,
            pay the Jizya, or die, many scientists and wise men of the over-run nations and peoples took on islam to save themselves from death, or the extremity of dhimmitude, which is much worse than the Jim
            Crow days of America at the start of the 20th century. Any scientific endeavors of the ”golden age” were in spite of islam. And as the severity of Islamic doctrines and
            sharia beat back the freedom of the individual’s soul, all muslim dominated nations slipped down in to the poverty and ignorance that comprises every muslim nation in this world today. If islam was so scientific, your people wouldn’t be so ignorant and poverty sticken.

            “There are doubts about her actual age at consummation of marriage being between 9 to 19 years. & Before Muhammad, Aisha was already engaged to another man before being engaged to Muhammad. So that shows that whatever be her age, it was the accepted norm then. None of Muhammad’s critics at that time raised this issue(which indicates that her age must have been n earer to 19).”
            Nice try. But anyone with google and half a brain can search for the real truth. She was 6 when mad mo married her (he was 50!), and most say she was 9 when the marriage was consummated, though al-Tabari believes she was 10. Further, this is from the hadiths of Sahih Bukhari – One of your most respected writers of hadiths. Ahem. And he writes as though quoting directly from Aisha. I especially love the one that talks about
            her mother coming to take her to your “prophet”, and she mentions the doll she was playing with at the time. Yeah – 19 year olds playing with dolls! “brother”, she was 9 when he consummated the marriage. Most muslims just argue that she had started menstruating and that in islam this is perfectly acceptable to marry a girl and have sex with her – because it’s “nature”. And they argue it was the way of the world at the time. While that is true as to being the way of the world at the time – modern humanity has grown up a lot since then. Islam hasn’t and to this day child marriages are common in the muslim world. There was even a news article I read just today about an 8 year old that bled to death on her “wedding” night, after her 40 year old husband consummated the marriage. But let’s not let your own religious hadiths and actions of millions of devout muslims, following the example of your “prophet” get in the way of you learning something about the religion you
            follow.

            “Islam was the first to give slaves rights, that too innumerable. It made it a good act and an atonement for sins to free slaves and Zakat was introduced for the freeing of slaves themselves. Many of the early Muslims were slaves. Had it been discriminatory, they wouldn’t have become so. Islam never advocated slavery & its stance(freeing them, zakat, etc..) was meant to finally lead to abolition of slavery. Immediate abolition of slavery would have made the unskilled slaves starve to death. Instead the masters were ordered to feed them, clothe them as they did, take care of their medical benefits, etc.
            denying which the slave may need to be freed. Who taught that in the 7th century??”

            My god, you muslims are so delusional and teach yourselves a twisted history of the world! Slavery has been a human institution since the dawn of humanity, and some nations treated their slaves better than others, including allowing them freedom, when earned in some way. Further, they all also took care of them in some way – since it would be expensive to have to keep replacing a mistreated slave. Can’t you see that basic logic? Further, of course some of the early muslims were slaves! Per Islamic doctrine, a muslim couldn’t enslave another muslim – only the kaffirs. And slaves could gain their freedom – by accepting islam and becoming muslim. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see why many slaves took up that offer. And how exactly is your pathologically insane interpretation of slavery meant to end slavery, when slavery was not only practiced by mohammed and the entire Islamic world, but that it
            was the arab traders that sold Europe and America all their African slaves!? “black” and “slave” is the same
            word in Arabic…. And yet again, son, since Mad Mo had slaves, and sharia espouses the treatment of slaves, and all of that cr@p is the alleged “eternal word of allah”, muslims in THIS day and age still believe in slavery! AS long as the slaves aren’t muslim. If this is wrong, tell it to all the Islamic imams and mullahs and the hundreds of millions that believe otherwise. Contrary to what your “prophet” and your “god” have enshrined in law, there is no “good” type of slavery – AT ALL!. And it took white, European rich men, using the imperial power of their nations to end slavery the world over – by force. And yes, they even had to force your muslim nations to stop slavery. If left up to your co-religionists, slavery would once again be a part of humanity. I so pity you muslims and your pathetic interpretations of the actions of your “prophet” and your laws, always putting some kind of holy spin on what is so obviously evil! Brainwashed.

            “The Jews themselves broke the treaty by committing treason as is well known even after promising unity in case of an attack. Islam only rebukes the erring Jews.
            In fact, Islam goes out of turn to mention that righteous Jews will go to heaven along with the righteous Muslims”
            .
            Yes, yes, this is what I’ve heard from every muslim I’ve debated. It was the jews that broke the treaty – because mad mo said so and it’s written in the hadiths and all. Never mind that the conquered peoples have different versions of what really happened. And your version of a “righteous jew” is one who renounces his Judaism, accepts mad mo as the last prophet, and embraces islam.

            ”Jews we re always treated fairly in Muslim countries as The People of the Book and they flourished. They were given shelter when they faced persecution from the
            Christians who treated them cruelly.”

            Pure b.s. Sometimes they were treated fairly, and sometimes they were persecuted – depending on the ruler of the time and how devout he was. The more devout a muslim, the worse the persecution. No different
            than the Coptics Christians of Egypt, who used to be the majority in Egypt until the muslim barbaric hordes invaded. Sometimes there was persecution and sometimes there was a semblance of freedom – but there was always dhimmitude – and now they are only 10% of Egypt, and being persecuted NOW, as the muslim brotherhood tries to gain power. Luckily there are actually some decent muslims in Egypt that were with the Copts in overthrowing Morsi – but even those can’t stop the hordes of barbarians from attacking Copts, raping their daughters and burning their churches.
            And while Christianity most definitely persecuted jews, the operative view today is what is important. It’s the Christians of this world who stand firmly in support of the Jews as God’s chosen people, and it’s the muslims
            running rabid in wanting to kill them and “drive them in to the sea”. It was the grand mufti of Jerusalem and the muslim world that sided with Hitler in World War 2, even having their own SS group! And you are pretty delusional if you can’t see all the exhortations in your holy books against the jews, as a people. Calling them descendants of apes and pigs, :: …””it is confirmed by the Quran that Jews are the most hostile of men to Muslims. The Almighty says: “Certainly you will find the most hostile to those who believe are the Jews and those who are polytheists.” [Koran5: 82] The verse confirms that Jews are the most hostile enemies of the Muslims, as the Almighty says “and prepare for them all you can of power, including steeds” [Koran 8: 60], [Note: The beginning of the verse is on the Brotherhood logo] a verse which urges preparation for this enemy with all our energy to prepare us to confront him at any time; because Zionists are traitors to every covenant and convention… there is no peace with the descendants of apes and pigs, [Koran 5:60]

            Further, mad mo also states:
            (Muhammad said:) The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would
            say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
            This is again from your preeminent Islamic scholar Sahih al-Bukhari, and his hadiths.

            Clearly, this, and many more passages from the quran and hadiths, as well as actual history (not muslim made-up history) show a hate and contempt for the jewish peoples. You can equivocate all you want, but your religion teaches otherwise, and muslim actions throughout the world show it. I mean, the way you’re explaining it, it’s not much different than “I can’t be
            racist! I have a few friends that are black!”. Yeah. You espouse that some jews will be righteous (again, only as long as they embrace mad mo and islam…) but your holy books and history teach a hatred of
            all things Jewish and against the Jewish people.

            “Never in Islam have boys been executed as they are juveniles. Only adolescent males are considered adults & liable for penalties.”
            Oh, so clearly that’s ok then! You only kill adult homosexuals! Thanks for clearing that up….*smirk*

            “Muhammad never raped a woman & what do u mean by effective?
            Complete b.s. and a reinterpreting of what happened in your own holy books, putting holy spin on something evil and making it “legal”, and therefore not rape – only in
            muslim eyes. After the attack of the Ban Qurayza, part of the “war booty” was Safiyah. The very eve of the
            destruction of the Jews, after killing her father and husband, mad mo took her in as part of his war booty and had sex with her. In western eyes what he did was rape a captive of war, after killing her husband and father. I understand that in muslim eyes, he “married” her, so it wasn’t rape and was aok. However, the rest of the world sees this sick perversion of humanity for what it was. He killed her family, and then raped her that very same night. Further, there are many hadiths with mad mo espousing about “war booty” – and that it was all ok to have sex with these kidnapped women/slaves/war booty. Again, I understand that in your perverse religion (and the way of the world at the time, certainly), that this is ok, however, the problem is, in addition to no other “prophet” ever being such a conquering war mongering pervert, but that muslims TODAY, in emulation of mad mohammed and his ways, believe these actions are all STILL ok. What they hell part of that can’t you get through your thick, brainwashed skull?

            “A pervert would never marry a twice widowed lady 15 years elder than him &remain solely with her till her death when he was 50 years old.”
            Like hell he wouldn’t! LMAO!! He was a lazy good for
            nothing (what exactly was his “trade” or what did he accomplish before inventing islam?) and he knew his sugar-momma. His first wife was a fairly rich widow – and she paid his way. Lmao! And you people think he was all so noble!

            “all his wives were widows”
            Lmao! Certainly! And many of them (like Safiyah) were widows because mohammed KILLED their husbands and took them as war booty! Sheesh!

            “do not equate Muslims with Islam. Muslims do many wrong things nowadays which doesn’t make Islam imperfect.”
            You know, I only have to look at the doctrines of islam and the examples of your “prophet” to judge islam as the pathetic and sick cult that it is. The examples provided by millions of muslims warring and rampaging, raping and murdering, in perpetual Jihad so that islam can reign supreme – all in the name of your “prophet” and “god” – are only icing on the cake of proof.

            Homosexuality is bad. It is bad for the society as well as for health. So nipping it in the bud is the way forward.
            Hey! We agree on something! – that homosexuality is bad for a society. However, we definitely disagree on how to “nip it in the bud”.

            The Quran nowhere advocates death penalty or any other worldly punishment for apostates.
            Ah, yes! Love this one! This is Kitman to the fullest! Anyone reading this far, this is a perfect example of how the muslim mind works to deceive those that don’t know any better! Notice his “The quran nowhere advocates…”. However, the hadiths (the examples and teachings of their prophet) are completely clear. And you yourself DID mention the hadiths at the beginning of this exchange, son – so check out Bukhari 53:260 — “…The Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ ” Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.
            Also check out Bukhari 83:37 – “Allah’s Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate.”
            These are just two of many more hadiths!! So, you LIE!! Apostasy is punishable by death per all Islamic
            jurisprudence (whether Sunni, Shiite or whatever), but if you actually believe it isn’t, then you are in the extreme minority of thought besides your co-religionists! (and they would kill you themselves for this…lol)

            Oh, and this, from that oh, so P.C., Wikipedia: “The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.”

            “Adulterers are bad & so are thieves & so deserve punishment. It is the lack lustre attitude of the west towards them that emboldens them.”
            Again, while we agree they are bad, we disagree on how to stop it. It used to be in the western world that adulterers were shunned, and thieves and criminals were either hung or imprisoned, depending on the severity of the crime. Since the modern liberalism has taken over
            and pushed God out of the western jurisprudence and mores, yes, the lackluster attitude allows these perversions of humanity to grow. However, I still prefer that over the Islamic doctrines.
            Lastly, in Christian theology, Jesus (whom you all allege to believe is a prophet, but ignore his words) saved an adulterer from a stoning, telling her to go and sin no
            more. And she sinned no more in adultery. Jesus brought the Grace of God in, which is better than the letter of the law. Islam would have killed her – God let her go on her way, giving her the chance to repent – and she did. That is more “justice” than any Islamic crap.

            “There is nothing wrong that has been enshrined in the Islamic laws.”
            Slavery. Child marriages. Treatment of Dhimmis (unbelievers). Needing 4 men’s testimony to prove a rape happened. Needing two woman’s testimony to equal a man’s. Killin adulters, homosexuals, etc. How to war. What you can take as war booty – including the children and females for sex slaves – and on and on, ad nauseum to the max. All these things and so much more that you and your kind believe as “nothing wrong”, the rest of the world, including nearly every other religion and ideology, know to be not just wrong, but perversions
            of true liberty and justice. Sharia is not of God. It’s of the devil – for certain – because only a devil can come up with laws that twist something obviously evil into calling it “good”.

            U don’t seem to know the meaning of Jihad. Jihad means struggle. It encompasses one’s fight with his own deficiencies, care for his parents, etc. & this is the greater Jihad only if u knew.
            That’s debatable depending on your version of islam.
            Shia’s believe what you just said to be the lesser Jihad, and the greater is the striving to expand islam in any way – through wars etc. And quite frankly, I could care less whether the Jihad that is attacking all over the world, and is growing, is your “lesser” or “greater” jihad. It’s still Jihad going on – warring, raping pillaging and terrorizing, in the name of your “god”, per the examples and edicts of your (un)holy “prophet”

            Wherever Muslims have gained a foothold, wealth has followed, whether it be the Arab land, or the Hindustan under Muslim rule or Spain under Muslims. Science & culture flourished under the early Muslim Rule for many centuries in Arab, North Africa, Spain etc. when the Dark Ages had engulfed Europe. It was the advances in the Muslim world that was a major driver in the Renaissance in Europe.
            Seriously? You actually believe this drivel? When clearly even a casual glance at any muslim nation today shows huge amounts of poverty and ignorance. And refer back to my talk of your alleged “golden age” of islam. Even if islam once had some kind of scientific bent, clearly today, islam is pure ignorance throughout the entire world. And the only reason Arabia is “rich” is the Saudi oil wealth that the western world found, and then all the bucks that is raked in due to the scam mohammed invented called the Haji, in which it’s required for every muslim to try to visit Mecca at least once in their life. Brings in a LOT of money for the islamic rulers. Great con!
            And I didn’t state “published” (regarding books, mexico and the Islamic world) I said, transcribed eg: translated. Islam doesn’t like translating books with any other knowledge outside of islam, so it doesn’t translate anything much that does not find some type of corollary to islam. And consequently breeds submission to ignorance, with no growth in actual knowledge.

            I appreciate if Jews have go t a lot of Nobel Prizes & I will reiterate that Islam doesn’t classify all Jews
            as evil. But remember that the Nobel Prizes were instituted in the 20th century. So what about the scientific achievements before the 20th century? If Isaac Newton didn’t get a Nobel Prize, does it make him lesser than any Nobel Laureate today?? Similarly, Aryabhatta(a Hindu) and Al-Khwarizmi and Avicenna were not born in an era of Nobel Prizes but their achievements surpass many.

            Dude. You seriously can’t see the point made
            regarding nobel prizes. Quit hanging on to the (alleged) past glories of your (alleged) “golden age” hundreds of years ago. What does islam offer the world TODAY? The real truth is……not a frickin thing except ignorance, death and destruction.

            Stop reading anti-Islamic literature brother & instead try to instead understand the true Islamic spirit by
            reading from Islamic sites or secular/neutral sites, I hold no grudges against any religion as I am a Muslim. U seem to b an atheist..

            Actually, I developed my hatred for islam starting on 9/11. And it only grew more and more as I read…..ISLAM! The quran, the hadiths etc. and read of what your prophet did, and the examples and edicts he left you! I hold no animosity for any other religion
            either, but islam is not a religion, in my book – it’s a cult. Hell, even the Buddhists – world renowned pacifists! Are fighting back against your barbaric brethren! Lastly, you don’t like dogs, beer or bacon. That right there is enough for me to dislike your “religion”, let alone all the previous
            things mentioned. lol

            I’ll leave you with this:
            In Christian theology, the end times will have a warring, “one world religion” that will be led by the anti-christ, which will go warring throughout the world, and will
            cut off the heads of those that refuse to submit, bow down to their prophet, and “take the mark of the beast”. There is only ONE religion in this world today that can even come remotely close to matching that Christian eschatology – and that is Islam, which matches it to a
            T. For all of your protestations to the contrary, your god is NOT my God, and your religion is pure luciferian doctrine.
            If I am wrong on all that I’ve stated here, you need to tell your co-religionists that THEY are wrong (hundreds of millions of them!) because I am only repeating what they themselves say and do.

            May there be True peace in Israel, soon……
            selah.

          • JoJoJams

            Check

          • JoJoJams

            OK, this is going to be a real long multi-post. I apologize, but it’s necessary.
            Here we go…………..

            “@jojojams: Brother, I could easily have used derogatory words against u just like U but me being a Muslim have been taught to be in gentle in speech.”
            That’s fine. You call it your way, I’ll call it mine. You’re only the second one out of hundreds of muslims I’ve “chatted” with who used “gentle” speech. I’m sure you’re “man” enough to take having your beard called stupid looking, or that the religion you follow is quite the barbaric one, as exhibited by tens of millions of your co-religionists the world over. Trust me, I won’t take offense if you call some of our western ways “barbaric” or ridicule something in our culture. We’re men who, for the most part, can control our emotions, here in the west.

            “I never felt beards stupid. & all the prophets & Jewish Rabbis, & early Christian missionaries, & Hindu sadhus, & Renaissance scientists sported beards.”
            You misconstrued what I stated. First, I don’t have any problem with some styles of beards – some look pretty cool, though I don’t wear one myself. Secondly, when someone in our western culture says something “looks stupid”, they aren’t talking about the mentality of it –
            they mean esthetically. In other words, the style of beards that muslims wear, to the western esthetics, looks “dorky” and “ridiculous”. Capiche? I See now that you look at those ridiculous style of beards in muslim culture like the western culture looks at white coats
            and dorky eyeglasses as being a look that a “scientist” would wear. See the difference?

            “Moreover, keeping beards is scientific. & Islam preaches scientific practices.”
            How the hell is having a beard “scientific”, other than as a ridiculous stereotype similar to the white lab coat and dorky eyeglasses of the stereotype for the western scientist. Any Neanderthal with XY chromosomes can grow a beard. And don’t tell me islam preaches “scientific practices” when mohammed himself said drinking camel piss was a cure for some things and beneficial, and that it’s aok for first cousins to marry, when REAL science shows that that close of inbreeding
            (marrying first cousins) leads to a higher rate of deformities, mutations and schizophrenia (which explains a lot about the muslim world). And that’s just two things out of many in which islam has no clue about science. Lmao. Further, if islam was so scientific, then my earlier post/point about the extreme lack of Nobel prizes for muslims was part of the disproof regarding
            islam and science. Again, my original hypothesis appears much more realistic and accurate, based on history and the actual state of “science” in the entirety of the muslim ummah, throughout ALL muslim nations. To wit: that the alleged “golden age” of islam was truly only due to them taking over more advanced nations and peoples – such as the Persians, or the scholars of the Byzantium empire, who were themselves leftovers of the fallen Roman Empire. Due to the extreme nature of Islam, convert, pay the Jizya, or die, many scientists and wise men of the over-run nations and peoples took on islam to save themselves from death, or the extremity of dhimmitude, which is much worse than the Jim Crow days of America at the start of the 20th century. Any scientific endeavors of the ”golden age” were in spite of islam. And as the severity of Islamic doctrines and sharia beat back the freedom of the individuals soul, all muslim dominated nations slipped down in to the poverty and ignorance that comprises every muslim nation in this world today. If islam was so scientific, your people wouldn’t be so ignorant and poverty sticken.

            “There are doubts about her actual age at consummation of marriage being between 9 to 19 years. & Before Muhammad, Aisha was already engaged to another man before being engaged to Muhammad. So that shows that whatever be her age, it was the accepted norm then. None of Muhammad’s critics at that time raised this issue(which indicates that her age must have been n earer to 19).”
            Nice try. But anyone with google and half a brain can search for the real truth. She was 6 when mad mo married her (he was 50!), and most say she was 9 when the marriage was consummated, though al-Tabari believes she was 10. Further, this is from the hadiths of Sahih Bukhari – One of your most respected writers of hadiths. Ahem. And he writes as though quoting directly from Aisha. I especially love the one that talks about
            her mother coming to take her to your “prophet” for the consummation, and she mentions the doll she was playing with at the time. Yeah – 19 year olds playing with dolls! “brother”, she was 9 when he consummated the
            marriage. Most muslims just argue that she had started menstruating and that in islam this is perfectly acceptable to marry a girl and have sex with her – because it’s “nature”. And they argue it was the way of the world at the time. While that is true as to being the way of the world at the time – modern humanity has grown up a lot since then. Islam hasn’t and to this day child marriages are common in the muslim world. There was even a news article I read just yesterday about an 8 year old that bled to death on her “wedding” night,
            after her 40 year old husband consummated the marriage. But let’s not let your own religious hadiths
            and actions of millions of devout muslims, following the example of your “prophet” get in the way of you learning something about the religion you follow.

          • JoJoJams

            Ok. Back to the drawing board. the censors that be are keeping me from posting. Let me re-write it. Again, it will be very long – I apologize, but feel it is necessary to address all Aasim’s points.

          • JoJoJams

            “There is nothing wrong that has been
            enshrined in the Islamic laws.”

            Slavery. Child marriages. Treatment of Dhimmis (unbelievers). Needing 4 men’s testimony to prove a rape happened. Needing two woman’s testimony to equal a man’s. Killin adulters, homosexuals, etc. How to war. What you can take as war booty – including the children and females for sex slaves – and on and
            on, ad nauseum to the max. All these things and so much more that you and your kind believe as “nothing wrong”, the rest of the world, including nearly every
            other religion and ideology, know to be not just wrong, but perversions of true liberty and justice. Sharia is not of God. It’s of the devil – for certain – because only a devil can come up with laws that twist something obviously evil into calling it “good”.

            U don’t seem to know the meaning of Jihad. Jihad means struggle. It encompasses one’s fight with his own deficiencies, care for his parents, etc.& this is the greater Jihad only if u knew.
            That’s debatable depending on your version of islam. Shia’s believe what you just said to be the lesser Jihad, and the greater is the striving to expand islam in any way – through wars etc. And quite frankly, I could care less whether the Jihad that is attacking the world over and is growing is your “lesser” or “greater” jihad. It’s still Jihad going on – warring, raping pillaging and terrorizing, in the name of your “god”, per the examples and edicts of your (un)holy “prophet”

            Wherever Muslims have gained a foothold, wealth has followed, whether it be the Arab land, or the Hindustan under Muslim rule or Spain under Muslims.
            Science & culture flourished under the early Muslim Rule for many centuries in Arab, North Africa, Spain etc. when the Dark Ages had engulfed Europe. It was the
            advances in the Muslim world that was a major driver in the Renaissance in Europe.

            Seriously? You actually believe this drivel? When clearly even a casual glance at any muslim nation today shows huge amounts of poverty and ignorance. And refer back to my talk of your alleged “golden age” of islam. Even if
            islam once had some kind of scientific bent, clearly today, islam is pure ignorance throughout the entire world. And I didn’t state “published” (regarding mexico and the Islamic world) I said, transcribed eg: translated.
            Islam doesn’t like translating books with any other knowledge outside of islam, so it doesn’t translate anything much that does not find some type of corollary
            to islam. And consequently breeds submission to ignorance, with no growth in actual knowledge.

            I appreciate if Jews have go t a lot of Nobel Prizes & I will reiterate that Islam doesn’t classify all Jews as evil. But remember that the Nobel Prizes were instituted in the 20th century. So what about the scientific achievements before the 20th century? If Isaac Newton didn’t get a Nobel Prize, does it make him lesser than any Nobel Laureate today?? Similarly, Aryabhatta(a
            Hindu) and Al-Khwarizmi and Avicenna were not born in an era of Nobel Prizes but their achievements surpass many.

            Dude. You seriously can’t see the point made regarding nobel prizes?? Quit hanging on to the (alleged) past glories of your (alleged) “golden age” hundreds of years ago. What does islam offer the world today? The real truth is……not a frickin thing except ignorance, death and destruction.

            Stop reading anti-Islamic literature brother & instead try to instead understand the true Islamic spirit by reading from Islamic sites or secular/neutral sites, I hold no grudges against any religion as I am a Muslim. U seem to b an atheist..
            Actually, I developed my hatred for islam starting on 9/11. And it only grew more and more as I read…..ISLAM! The quran, the hadiths etc. and read of what your prophet did, and the examples and edicts he left you! I hold no animosity for any other religion either, but islam is not a religion – it’s a cult. Even the Buddhists of Myanmar (Bhuddists!) – world renowned pacifists! Are fighting back against your barbaric brethren! Lastly, you don’t like dogs, beer or bacon. That right there is enough for me to dislike your “religion”, let alone all the previous things mentioned.

            I’ll leave you with this. In Christian theology, the end times will have a warring, “one world religion” that will be led by the anti-christ, which will go warring throughout the world, and will cut off the heads of those that
            refuse to submit, bow down to their prophet, and “take the mark of the beast”.
            There is only ONE religion in this world today that can even come remotely close to matching that Christian eschatology – and that is Islam, which matches it to a T. For all of your protestations, your god is NOT my God, and your religion is pure luciferian doctrine.

            May there be True peace in Israel, soon…… selah.

          • JoJoJams

            “Never in Islam have boys been executed as they are juveniles. Only adolescent males are considered adults & liable for penalties.”
            Oh, so clearly that’s ok then! You only kill adult homosexuals! Thanks for clearing that up….*smirk*

            “Muhammad never raped a woman & what do u mean by effective?
            Complete b.s. and a reinterpreting of what happened in our own holy books, putting holy spin on something evil and making it “legal”, and therefore not rape – only in
            muslim eyes. After the attack of the Ban Qurayza, part of the “war booty” was Safiyah. The very eve of the destruction of the Jews, after killing her father and husband, mad mo took her in as part of his war booty and had sex with her. In western eyes what he did was rape a captive of war, after killing her husband and father. I understand that in muslim eyes, he “married” her, so it wasn’t rape and was aok. However, the rest of the world sees this sick perversion of humanity for what it was. He killed her family, and then raped her that very same night. Further, there are many hadiths with mad mo espousing about “war booty” – and that it was all ok to have sex with these kidnapped women/slaves/war booty. Again, I understand that in your perverse religion (and the way of the world at the time, certainly), that this is ok, however, the problem is, in addition to no other “prophet” ever being such a conquering war-mongering pervert, but that muslims TODAY, in emulation of mad mohammed and his ways, believe these actions are all STILL ok. What they part of that can’t you get through your thick, brainwashed skull?

            “A pervert would never marry a twice widowed lady 15 years elder than him & remain solely with her till her death when he was 50 years old.”
            LMAO! Like h e l l he wouldn’t! He was a lazy good for nothing (what exactly was his “trade” or what did he accomplish before inventing islam?) and he knew
            his sugar-momma.
            His first wife was a fairly rich widow – and she paid his way. Lmao! And you people think he was all so noble!

            “all his wives were widows”
            Lmao! Certainly! And many of them (like Safiyah) were widowed because mohammed KILLED their husbands and took them as war booty! Sheesh!

            “do not equate Muslims with Islam. Muslims do many wrong things nowadays which doesn’t make Islam imperfect.”
            You know, I only have to look at the doctrines of islam and the examples of your “prophet” to judge islam as the pathetic and sick cult that it is. The examples provided by millions of muslims warring and rampaging, raping and murdering, in perpetual Jihad so that islam can reign supreme – all in the name of your “prophet” and “god” – are only icing on the cake of proof.

            Homosexuality is bad. It is bad for the society as well as for health. So nipping it in the bud is the way forward.
            Hey! We agree on something! – that homosexuality is bad for a society. However, we definitely disagree on how to “nip it in the bud”.

            The Quran nowhere advocates death penalty or any other worldly punishment for apostates.
            Ah, yes! Love this one! This is Kitman to the fullest! Anyone reading this far, this is a perfect example of how the muslim mind works to deceive those that don’t know any better! Notice his “The quran nowhere advocates…”. However, the hadiths (the examples and teachings of their prophet) are completely clear. And you yourself DID mention the hadiths at the beginning of
            this exchange, son – so check out Bukhari 53:260 — “…The Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ ” Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim. Also check
            out Bukhari 83:37 – “Allah’s Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate.” These are just two of many more hadiths!!
            So, you LIE!! Apostasy is punishable by death per all Islamic jurisprudence (whether Sunni, Shiite or whatever), but if you actually believe it isn’t then you are in the extreme minority of thought besides your co-religionists! (and they would kill you themselves for this…lol)

            Oh, and this, from the haven of Political Correctness, Wikipedia: The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of
            sound mind.

            “Adulterers are bad & so are thieves & so deserve punishment. It is the lack lustre attitude of the west towards them that emboldens them.”
            Again, while we agree they are bad, we disagree on how to stop it. It used to be in the western world that adulterers were shunned, and thieves and criminals
            were either hung or imprisoned, depending on the severity of the crime. Since the modern liberalism has taken over and pushed God out of the western
            jurisprudence and mores, yes, the lackluster
            attitude allows these perversions of humanity to grow. However, I still prefer that over the Islamic doctrines. Lastly, in Christian theology, Jesus (whom you all allege to believe is a prophet, but ignore his words) saved an adulterer from a stoning, telling her to go and sin no more. And she sinned no more in that. Jesus brought the Grace of God in, which is better than the letter of the
            law. Islam would have killed her – God let her go on her way, giving her the chance to repent – and she did. That is more “justice” than any Islamic crap.

          • JoJoJams

            “Islam was the first to give slaves rights, that too innumerable. It made it a good act and an atonement for sins to free slaves and Zakat was introduced for the
            freeing of slaves themselves. Many of the early Muslims were slaves. Had it been discriminatory, they wouldn’t have become so. Islam never advocated slavery & its stance(freeing them, zakat, etc..) was meant to finally lead to abolition of slavery. Immediate abolition of slavery would have made the unskilled slaves starve to death. Instead the masters were ordered to feed them, clothe them as they did, take care of their medical benefits, etc.denying which the slave may need to be freed. Who taught that in the 7th century??”

            My God, you muslims are so delusional and teach yourselves a twisted history of the world! Slavery has been a human institution since the dawn of humanity, and some nations treated their slaves better than others, including allowing them freedom, when earned in some way. Further, they all also took care of them in
            some way – since it would be expensive to have to keep replacing a mistreated slave. Can’t you see that basic logic? Further, of course some of the early muslims
            were slaves! Per Islamic doctrine, a muslim couldn’t enslave another muslim – only the kaffirs. And slaves could gain their freedom – by accepting islam and
            becoming muslim. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see why many slaves took up that offer. And how exactly is your pathologically insane interpretation of slavery meant to end slavery, when slavery was not only practiced by mohammed and the entire Islamic world, but that it was the arab traders that sold Europe and America all their African slaves!? “black” and “slave” is the same word in Arabic…. And yet again, son, since Mad Mo had slaves, and sharia espouses the treatment of slaves, and all of that cr@p is the alleged “eternal
            word of allah”, muslims in THIS day and age still believe in slavery! AS long as the slaves aren’t muslim. If this is wrong, tell it to all the Islamic imams and mullahs and the hundreds of millions that believe otherwise. Contrary to
            what your “prophet” and your “god” have enshrined in law, there is no “good” type of slavery – AT ALL!. And it took white, European rich men, using the imperial power of their nations to end slavery the world over – by force. And yes, they even had to force your muslim nations to stop slavery. If left up to your co-religionists, slavery would once again be a part of humanity. I so pity you muslims and your pathetic interpretations of the actions of your “prophet” and your laws, always putting some kind of holy spin on what is so obviously evil! Brainwashed.

            “The Jews themselves broke the treaty by committing treason as is well known even after promising unity in case of an attack. Islam only rebukes the erring Jews. In fact, Islam goes out of turn to mention that righteous Jews will go to heaven along with the righteous Muslims”.
            Yes, yes, this is what I’ve heard from every muslim I’ve debated. It was the jews that broke the treaty – because mad mo said so and it’s written in the hadiths and all. Never mind that the conquered peoples have different versions of what really happened. And your version of a “righteous jew” is one who renounces his Judaism,
            accepts mad mo as the last prophet, and embraces islam.

            ”Jews we re always treated fairly in Muslim countries as The People of the Book and they flourished. They were given shelter when they faced persecution from the Christians who treated them cruelly.”
            Pure b.s. Sometimes they were treated fairly, and sometimes they were persecuted – depending on the ruler of the time and how devout he was. The more devout a muslim, the worse the persecution. No different than the Coptics Christians of Egypt, who used to be the majority in Egypt until the muslim barbaric hordes invaded. Sometimes there was persecution and sometimes there was a semblance of freedom – but there was always dhimmitude – and now they are
            only 10% of Egypt, and being persecuted NOW, as the muslim brotherhood tries to gain power. Luckily there are actually some decent muslims in Egypt that were
            with the Copts in overthrowing Morsi – but even those can’t stop the hordes of barbarians from attacking Copts, raping their daughters and burning their churches. And while Christianity most definitely persecuted jews, the operative view today is what is important. It’s the Christians of this world who stand firmly in support of the Jews as God’s chosen people, and it’s the muslims running rabid in wanting to kill them and “drive them in to the sea”. It was the grand mufti of Jerusalem and the muslim world that sided with Hitler in World War 2, even having their own SS group. And you are pretty delusional if you can’t see all the exhortations in your holy books against the jews, as a people. Calling them descendants of apes and pigs, :: “”…it is confirmed by the Quran that Jews are the most hostile of men to Muslims. The Almighty says: “Certainly you will find the most hostile to those who believe are the Jews and those who are polytheists.” [Koran5: 82] The verse confirms that Jews are the most hostile enemies of the Muslims, as the Almighty says “and prepare for them all you can of power, including steeds” [Koran 8: 60], [Note: The beginning of the verse is on the Brotherhood logo] a verse which urges preparation for this enemy with all our energy to prepare us to confront him at any time; because Zionists are traitors to every covenant and convention… there is no peace with the descendants of
            apes and pigs, [Koran5:60]”

            Further, mad mo also states: (Muhammad said:) The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them
            until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. 3. This is again from your preeminent Islamic scholar Sahih al-Bukhari, and his hadiths.

            Clearly, this, and many more passages from the quran and hadiths, as well as actual history (not muslim made-up history) show a hate and contempt for the
            jewish peoples. You can equivocate all you want, but your religion teaches otherwise, and muslim actions throughout the world show it. I mean, the way you’re explaining it, it’s not much different than “I can’t be racist! I have a few friends that are black!”. Yeah. You espouse that some jews will be righteous (again, only as long as they embrace mad mo and islam…)
            but your holy books and history teach a hatred of all things Jewish and against the Jewish people.

          • JoJoJams

            “@jojojams: Brother, I could easily have used derogatory words against u just like U but me being a Muslim have been taught to be in gentle in speech.”
            That’s fine. You call it your way, I’ll call it mine. You’re only the second one out of hundreds who used “gentle” speech. I’m sure you’re “man” enough to take having your beard called stupid looking, or that the religion you follow is quite the barbaric one, as exhibited by tens of
            millions of your co-religionists the world over. Trust me, I won’t take offense if you call some of our western ways “barbaric” or ridicule something in our culture. We’re men who, for the most part, can control our emotions, here in the west.

            “I never felt beards stupid. & all the prophets & Jewish Rabbis, & early Christian missionaries, & Hindu sadhus, & Renaissance scientists sported beards.”
            You misconstrued what I stated. First, I don’t have any problem with some styles of beards – some look pretty cool, though I don’t wear one myself. Secondly, when someone in our western culture says something “looks stupid”, they aren’t talking about the mentality of it –
            they mean esthetically. In other words, the style of beards that muslims wear, to the western esthetics, looks “dorky” and “ridiculous”. Capiche? I See now
            that you look at those ridiculous style of beards in muslim culture like the western culture looks at white coats and dorky eyeglasses as being a look that a “scientist” would wear. See the difference?

            “Moreover, keeping beards is scientific. & Islam preaches scientific practices.”
            How is having a beard “scientific”, other than as a ridiculous stereotype similar to the white lab coat and dorky eyeglasses of the stereotype for the western scientist. Any Neanderthal with XY chromosomes can grow a beard. And don’t tell me islam preaches “scientific practices” when mohammed himself said
            drinking camel piss was a cure for some things and beneficial, and that it’s aok for first cousins to marry, when REAL science shows that that close of inbreeding
            (marrying first cousins) leads to a higher rate of deformities, mutations and schizophrenia (which explains a lot about the islamic world). And that’s just
            two things out of many in which islam has no clue about science. Lmao.

            Further, if islam was so scientific, then my earlier post/point about the extreme lack of Nobel prizes for muslims was part of the disproof regarding islam and science. Again, my original hypothesis appears much more realistic and accurate, based on history and the
            actual state of “science” in the entirety of the muslim ummah, throughout ALL muslim nations. That is that the alleged “golden age” of islam was truly only due to them taking over more advanced nations and peoples – such as the Persians, or the scholars of the Byzantium empire, themselves leftovers of the fallen Roman Empire. Due to the extreme nature of Islam, convert,
            pay the Jizya, or die, many scientists and wise men of the over-run nations and peoples took on islam to save themselves from death, or the extremity of dhimmitude, which is much worse than the Jim
            Crow days of America at the start of the 20th century. Any scientific endeavors of the ”golden age” were in spite of islam. And as the severity of Islamic doctrines and sharia beat back the freedom of the individuals soul, all muslim dominated nations slipped down in to the poverty and ignorance that comprises every muslim nation in this world today. If islam was so scientific, your people wouldn’t be so ignorant and poverty stricken.

            “There are doubts about her actual age at consummation of marriage being between 9 to 19 years. & Before Muhammad, Aisha was already engaged to another man before being engaged to Muhammad. So that shows that whatever be her age, it was the accepted norm then. None of Muhammad’s critics at that time raised this issue(which indicates that her age must have been n earer to 19).”
            Nice try. But anyone with google and half a brain can search for the real truth. She was 6 when mad mo married her (he was 50!), and most say she was 9 when the marriage was consummated, though al-Tabari believes she was 10. Further, this is from the hadiths of Sahih Bukhari – One of your most respected writers of hadiths. Ahem. And he writes as though quoting directly from Aisha. I especially love the one that talks about
            her mother coming to take her to your “prophet”, to consummate the marriage, and she mentions the doll she was playing with at the time. Yeah – 19 year olds
            playing with dolls! “brother”, she was 9 when he consummated the marriage. Most muslims just argue that she had started menstruating and that in islam this is perfectly acceptable to marry a girl and have sex with her – because it’s “nature”. And they argue it was the way of the world at the time. While that is true as to being the way of the world at the time – modern humanity has grown up a lot since then. Islam hasn’t and to this day child marriages are common in the muslim world. There was even a news article I read just yesterday about an 8 year old that bled to death on her “wedding” night, after her 40 year old husband consummated the marriage. But let’s not let your own religious hadiths and actions of millions of devout muslims, following the example of your “prophet” get in the way of you learning something about the religion you follow.

          • JoJoJams

            Ok. So far only one of my four post/replies posted. I hope the powers that be that moderate these things allow them. They aren’t any worse than the one they did allow…

          • JoJoJams

            Let em try a different tack then. I want to reply to as many of mo’s statements as possible – to rebut their fallacies.
            One at a time then, and let the censors remove them one at a time as they see fit (though it’s not like any of them are so terrible…)

          • JoJoJams

            Stop reading anti-Islamic literature brother & instead try to instead understand the true Islamic spirit by reading from Islamic sites or secular/neutral sites, I hold no grudges against any religion as I am a Muslim. U seem to b an atheist..
            Actually, I developed my hatred for islam starting on 9/11. And it only grew more and more as I read…..ISLAM! The quran, the hadiths etc. and read of what your prophet did, and the examples and edicts he left you! I hold no animosity for any other religion either, but islam is not a religion – it’s a cult. Even the Buddhists of Myanmar (Bhuddists!) – world renowned pacifists! Are fighting back against your barbaric brethren! Lastly, you don’t like dogs, beer or bacon. That right there is enough for me to dislike your “religion”, let alone all the previous things mentioned.

            I’ll leave you with this. In Christian theology, the end times will have a warring, “one world religion” that will be led by the anti-christ, which will go warring throughout the world, and will cut off the heads of those that refuse to submit, bow down to their prophet, and “take the mark of the beast”. There is only ONE religion in this world today that can even come remotely close to matching that Christian eschatology – and that is Islam, which matches it to a T. For all of your protestations, your
            god is NOT my God, and your religion is pure luciferian doctrine.

            May there be True peace in Israel, soon…… selah.

          • JoJoJams

            I
            appreciate if Jews have go t a lot of Nobel Prizes & I will reiterate that
            Islam doesn’t classify all Jews as evil. But remember that the Nobel Prizes
            were instituted in the 20th century. So what about the scientific achievements
            before the 20th century? If Isaac Newton didn’t get a Nobel Prize, does it make
            him lesser than any Nobel Laureate today?? Similarly, Aryabhatta(a Hindu) and
            Al-Khwarizmi and Avicenna were not born in an era of Nobel Prizes but their
            achievements surpass many.

            Dude. You seriously can’t see the point made regarding nobel prizes?? Quit hanging on to the (alleged) past glories
            of your (alleged) “golden age” hundreds of years ago. What does islam offer the
            world today? The real truth is……not a frickin thing except ignorance, death and
            destruction.

          • JoJoJams

            Wherever Muslims have gained a foothold, wealth has followed, whether it be the Arab land, or the Hindustan under Muslim rule or Spain under Muslims. Science & culture flourished under the early Muslim Rule for many centuries in Arab, North Africa, Spain etc. when the Dark Ages had engulfed Europe. It was the
            advances in the Muslim world that was a major driver in the Renaissance in Europe.

            Seriously? You actually believe this drivel? When clearly even a casual glance at any muslim nation today shows huge amounts of poverty and ignorance. And refer back to my talk of your alleged “golden age” of islam. Even if
            islam once had some kind of scientific bent, clearly today, islam is pure ignorance throughout the entire world. And I didn’t state “published” (regarding mexico and the Islamic world) I said, transcribed eg: translated.
            Islam doesn’t like translating books with any other knowledge outside of islam, so it doesn’t translate anything much that does not find some type of corollary
            to islam. And consequently breeds submission to ignorance, with no growth in actual knowledge.

          • JoJoJams

            U don’t seem to know the meaning of Jihad. Jihad means struggle. It encompasses one’s fight with his own deficiencies, care for his parents, etc. & this is the greater Jihad only if u knew.
            That’s debatable depending on your version of islam. Shia’s believe what you just said to be the lesser Jihad, and the greater is the striving to expand islam in any way – through wars etc. And quite frankly, I could care less
            whether the Jihad that is attacking the world over and is growing is your “lesser” or “greater” jihad. It’s still Jihad going on – warring, raping pillaging and terrorizing, in the name of your “god”, per the examples and edicts of your (un)holy “prophet”

          • JoJoJams

            “There is nothing wrong that has been enshrined in the Islamic laws.”
            Slavery. Child marriages. Treatment of Dhimmis (unbelievers). Needing 4 men’s testimony to prove a rape happened. Needing two woman’s testimony to equal a man’s. Killing adulters, ho mo se xuals, etc. How to war. What you can take as war booty – including the children and females for sex slaves – and on and
            on, ad nauseum to the max. All these things and so much more that you and your kind believe as “nothing wrong”, the rest of the world, including nearly every
            other religion and ideology, know to be not just wrong, but perversions of true liberty and justice. Sharia is not of God. It’s of the devil – for certain – because only a devil can come up with laws that twist something obviously evil into calling it “good”.

          • JoJoJams

            “Adulterers are bad & so are thieves & so deserve punishment. It is the lack lustre attitude of the west towards them that emboldens them.”
            Again, while we agree they are bad, we disagree on how to stop it. It used to be in the western world that adulterers were shunned, and thieves and criminals
            were either hung or imprisoned, depending on the severity of the crime. Since the modern liberalism has taken over and pushed God out of the western jurisprudence and mores, yes, the lackluster attitude allows these perversions of humanity to grow. However, I still prefer that over the Islamic doctrines. Lastly, in Christian theology, Jesus (whom you all allege to believe is a prophet, but ignore his words) saved an adulterer from a stoning, telling her to go and sin no more. And she sinned no more in that. Jesus brought the Grace of God in, which is better than the letter of the
            law. Islam would have killed her – God let her go on her way, giving her the chance to repent – and she did. That is more “justice” than any Islamic crap.

          • JoJoJams

            The Quran nowhere advocates death penalty or any other worldly punishment for apostates.
            Ah, yes! Love this one! This is Kitman to the fullest! Anyone reading this far, this is a perfect example of how the muslim mind works to deceive those that don’t know any better! Notice his “The quran nowhere advocates…”. However, the hadiths (the examples and teachings of their prophet) are completely clear. And you yourself, Mo, DID mention the hadiths at the beginning of this exchange, so check out Bukhari 53:260 — “…The Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ ” Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim. Also check out Bukhari 83:37 – “Allah’s Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted
            Islam and became an apostate.
            ” These are just two of many more hadiths!!
            So, you LIE!! Apostasy is punishable by death per all Islamic jurisprudence (whether Sunni, Shiite or whatever), but if you actually believe it isn’t then you are in the extreme minority of thought besides your co-religionists! (and they would kill you themselves for this…lol)
            Oh, and this, from the haven of Political Correctness, Wikipedia: The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.

          • JoJoJams

            Homosexuality is bad. It is bad for the society as well as for health. So nipping it in the bud is the way forward.
            Hey! We agree on something! – that homosexuality is bad for a society. However, we definitely disagree on how to “nip it in the bud”.

          • JoJoJams

            “do not equate Muslims with Islam. Muslims do many wrong things nowadays which doesn’t make Islam imperfect.”
            You know, I only have to look at the doctrines of islam and the examples of your “prophet” to judge islam as the pathetic and sick cult that it is. The examples provided by millions of muslims warring and rampaging, raping and
            murdering, in perpetual Jihad so that islam can reign supreme – all in the name of your “prophet” and “god” – are only icing on the cake of proof.

          • JoJoJams

            “A
            pervert would never marry a twice widowed lady 15 years elder than him &
            remain solely with her till her death when he was 50 years old.”

            Like h e l l he wouldn’t! He was a lazy good for nothing (what exactly
            was his “trade” or what did he accomplish before inventing islam?) and he knew
            his sugar-momma.

            His first wife was a fairly rich widow – and she paid his way. Lmao! And
            you people think he was all so noble!

            “all his wives were widows”

            Lmao! Certainly! And many of them (like Safiyah) were widowed because mohammed
            KILLED their husbands and took them as war booty! Sheesh!

          • JoJoJams

            “Muhammad never raped a woman & what do u mean by effective?
            Complete b.s. and a reinterpreting of what happened in your own holy books, putting holy spin on something evil and making it “legal”, and therefore not rape – only in
            muslim eyes. After the attack of the Ban Qurayza, part of the “war booty” was Safiyah. The very eve of the destruction of the Jews, after killing her father and husband, mad mo took her in as part of his war booty and had sex with her. In western eyes what he did was rape a captive of war, after killing her husband and father. I understand that in muslim eyes, he “married” her, so it wasn’t rape and was aok. However, the rest of the world sees this sick perversion of humanity for what it was. He killed her family, and then raped her that very
            same night. Further, there are many hadiths with mad mo espousing about “war booty” – and that it was all ok to have sex with these kidnapped women/slaves/war booty. Again, I understand that in your perverse religion (and the way of the world at the time, certainly), that this is ok, however, the problem is, in addition to no other “prophet” ever being such a conquering war-
            mongering pervert, but that muslims TODAY, in emulation of mad mohammed and his ways, believe these actions are all STILL ok. What they part of that can’t you get through your thick, brainwashed skull?

          • JoJoJams

            “Never in Islam have boys been executed as they are juveniles. Only adolescent males are considered adults & liable for penalties.”
            Oh, so clearly that’s ok then! You only kill adult homosexuals! Thanks for clearing that up….*smirk*

          • JoJoJams

            ”Jews
            we re always treated fairly in Muslim countries as The People of the Book and
            they flourished. They were given shelter when they faced persecution from the
            Christians who treated them cruelly.”

            Pure b.s. Sometimes they were treated fairly, and sometimes they were
            persecuted – depending on the ruler of the time and how devout he was. The more
            devout a muslim, the worse the persecution. No different than the Coptics
            Christians of Egypt, who used to be the majority in Egypt until the muslim
            barbaric hordes invaded. Sometimes there was persecution and sometimes there
            was a semblance of freedom – but there was always dhimmitude – and now they are
            only 10% of Egypt, and being persecuted NOW, as the muslim brotherhood tries to
            gain power. Luckily there are actually some decent muslims in Egypt that were
            with the Copts in overthrowing Morsi – but even those can’t stop the hordes of
            barbarians from attacking Copts, raping their daughters and burning their
            churches. And while Christianity most definitely persecuted jews, the operative
            view today is what is important. It’s the Christians of this
            world who stand firmly in support of the Jews as God’s chosen people, and it’s
            the muslims running rabid in wanting to kill them and “drive them in to the
            sea”. It was the grand mufti of Jerusalem and the muslim world that sided with
            Hitler in World War 2, even having their own SS group. And you are pretty
            delusional if you can’t see all the exhortations in your holy books against the
            jews, as a people. Calling them descendants of apes and pigs, :: …it is
            confirmed by the Quran that Jews are the most hostile of men to Muslims. The
            Almighty says: “Certainly you will find the most hostile to those who
            believe are the Jews and those who are polytheists.” [Koran5: 82] The
            verse confirms that Jews are the most hostile enemies of the Muslims, as the
            Almighty says “and prepare for them all you can of power, including
            steeds” [Koran 8: 60], [Note: The beginning of the verse is on the
            Brotherhood logo] a verse which urges preparation for this enemy with all our
            energy to prepare us to confront him at any time; because Zionists are traitors
            to every covenant and convention… there is no peace with the descendants of
            apes and pigs, [Koran5:60]”

            Further, mad mo also states: (Muhammad said:) The last hour would not come
            unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them
            until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a
            tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come
            and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the
            Jews. 3. This is again from your preeminent Islamic scholar Sahih al-Bukhari,
            and his hadiths.

            Clearly, this, and many more passages from the quran and hadiths, as well as
            actual history (not muslim made-up history) show a hate and contempt for the
            jewish peoples. You can equivocate all you want, but your religion teaches
            otherwise, and muslim actions throughout the world show it. I mean, the way
            you’re explaining it, it’s not much different than “I can’t be racist! I have a
            few friends that are black!”. Yeah. You espouse that some
            jews will be righteous (again, only as long as they embrace mad mo and islam…)
            but your holy books and history teach a hatred of all things Jewish and against
            the Jewish people.

          • JoJoJams

            “The Jews themselves broke the treaty by committing treason as is well known even after promising unity in case of an attack. Islam only rebukes the erring Jews. In fact, Islam goes out of turn to mention that righteous Jews will go to heaven along with the righteous Muslims”.
            Yes, yes, this is what I’ve heard from every muslim I’ve debated. It was the jews that broke the treaty – because mad mo said so and it’s written in the hadiths and all. Never mind that the conquered peoples have different versions of what really happened. And your version of a “righteous jew” is one who renounces his Judaism,
            accepts mad mo as the last prophet, and embraces islam.

          • JoJoJams

            “There are doubts about her actual age at consummation of marriage being between 9 to 19 years. & Before Muhammad, Aisha was already engaged to another man before being engaged to Muhammad. So that shows that whatever be her age, it was the accepted norm then. None of Muhammad’s critics at that time raised this issue(which indicates that her age must have been n earer to 19).”
            Nice try. But anyone with google and half a brain can search for the real truth. She was 6 when mad mo married her (he was 50!), and most say she was 9 when the marriage was consummated, though al-Tabari believes she was 10. Further, this is from the hadiths of Sahih Bukhari – One of your most respected writers of hadiths. Ahem. And he writes as though quoting directly from Aisha. I especially love the one that talks about her mother coming to take her to your “prophet”, to consummate the marriage, and she mentions the doll she was playing with at the time. Yeah – 19 year olds
            playing with dolls! “brother”, she was 9 when mad mo consummated the marriage. Most muslims just argue that she had started menstruating and that in islam this is
            perfectly acceptable to marry a girl and have sex with her – because it’s “nature”. And they argue it was the way of the world at the time. While that is true as to being the way of the world at the time – modern humanity has grown up a lot since then. Islam hasn’t and to this day child marriages are common in the muslim world. There was even a news article I read just yesterday about an 8 year old that bled to death on her “wedding” night, after her 40 year old “husband” consummated the marriage. But let’s not let your own religious hadiths and actions of millions of devout muslims, following the example of your “prophet” get in the way of you learning something about the religion you
            follow.

          • JoJoJams

            “@jojojams: Brother, I could easily have used derogatory words
            against u just like U but me being a Muslim have been taught to be in gentle in
            speech.”

            That’s fine. You call it your way, I’ll call it mine. You’re only the second
            one out of hundreds who used “gentle” speech. I’m sure you’re “man” enough to
            take having your beard called stupid looking, or that the religion you follow
            is quite the barbaric one, as exhibited by tens of

            millions of your co-religionists the world over. Trust me, I won’t take offense
            if you call some of our western ways “barbaric” or ridicule something in our
            culture. We’re men who, for the most part, can control our emotions, here in
            the west.

            “I never felt beards stupid. & all the prophets & Jewish
            Rabbis, & early Christian missionaries, & Hindu sadhus, &
            Renaissance scientists sported beards.”

            You misconstrued what I stated. First, I don’t have any problem with some
            styles of beards – some look pretty cool, though I don’t wear one myself.
            Secondly, when someone in our western culture says something “looks stupid”,
            they aren’t talking about the mentality of it –

            they mean esthetically. In other words, the style of beards that muslims wear,
            to the western esthetics, looks “dorky” and “ridiculous”. Capiche? I See now
            that you look at those ridiculous style of beards in muslim culture like the
            western culture looks at white coats

            and dorky eyeglasses as being a look that a “scientist” would wear. See the
            difference?

            “Moreover, keeping beards is scientific. & Islam preaches
            scientific practices.”

            How is having a beard “scientific”, other than as a ridiculous stereotype
            similar to the white lab coat and dorky eyeglasses of the stereotype for the
            western scientist. Any Neanderthal with XY chromosomes can grow a beard. And
            don’t tell me islam preaches “scientific practices” when mohammed himself said
            drinking camel piss was a cure for some things and beneficial, and that it’s
            aok for first cousins to marry, when REAL science shows that that close of
            inbreeding

            (marrying first cousins) leads to a higher rate of deformities, mutations and
            schizophrenia (which explains a lot about the islamic world). And that’s just
            two things out of many in which islam has no clue about science. Lmao.

            Further, if islam was so scientific, then my earlier post/point about the
            extreme lack of Nobel prizes for muslims was part of the disproof regarding
            islam and science. Again, my original hypothesis appears much more realistic
            and accurate, based on history and the

            actual state of “science” in the entirety of the muslim ummah, throughout ALL
            muslim nations. That is that the alleged “golden age” of islam was truly only
            due to them taking over more advanced nations and peoples – such as the
            Persians, or the scholars of the Byzantium

            empire, themselves leftovers of the fallen Roman Empire. Due to the extreme
            nature of Islam, convert,

            pay the Jizya, or die, many scientists and wise men of the
            over-run nations and peoples took on islam to save themselves from death, or
            the extremity of dhimmitude, which is much worse than the
            Jim

            Crow days of America at the start of the 20th century. Any scientific endeavors
            of the ”golden age” were in spite of islam. And as the severity of Islamic
            doctrines and sharia beat back the freedom of the individuals soul, all muslim
            dominated nations slipped down in to the poverty and ignorance that comprises
            every

            muslim nation in this world today. If islam was so scientific, your people
            wouldn’t be so ignorant and poverty stricken.

          • handerwyc@yahoo.com

            It is couldn’t care less, not could care less. I like what you had to say.

          • JoJoJams

            Thanks for the catch. I often over-look that when ranting on. lol

        • HandsoffSolo

          Wow Islam the killer religion, exactly how do you reconcile that with the list of countries the US has bombed to smithereens since the 2nd World War?

          China 1945-46
          Korea 1950-53
          China 1950-53
          Guatemala 1954
          Indonesia 1958
          Cuba 1959-60
          Guatemala 1960
          Belgian Congo 1964
          Guatemala 1964
          Dominican Republic 1965-66
          Peru 1965
          Laos 1964-73
          Vietnam 1961-73
          Cambodia 1969-70
          Guatemala 1967-69
          Lebanon 1982-84
          Grenada 1983-84
          Libya 1986
          El Salvador 1981-92
          Nicaragua 1981-90
          Iran 1987-88
          Libya 1989
          Panama 1989-90
          Iraq 1991
          Kuwait 1991
          Somalia 1992-94
          Bosnia 1995
          Iran 1998
          Sudan 1998
          Afghanistan 1998
          Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999
          Afghanistan 2001
          Libya 2011

          • JoJoJams

            “Bombed to smithereens”. Seriously? Talk about sophomoric hyperbole! I could go through each one and nitpick the details (which is all that your deflection attempt is about) but let’s just take the Bosnia-Herzegovnia stuff: That was actually the US helping you frickin unappreciative muzzies against those that were allegedly persecuting you! Personally, I think we (yet again) were helping the wrong side there. Anyhow, most of what you attributed here weren’t wars where we “bombed them to smithereens”. lol. That said, go check out thereligionofpeace.com for a tally on islamic atrocities the world over, most having nothing to do with the US or Israel, and see the tally of tens of thousands of events since 9/11. As “bad” as the US arguably may be, it pales in comparison to the hundreds of millions killed and maimed by islam since it’s pathetic inception by a psychopath. It’s been spread by the sword ever since, only being stopped at the gates of Vienna, back when “the west” actually had a spine to stand up to the evil that is islam.

          • HandsoffSolo

            You really do need to brush up on your history sweetheart. Let me know when you do catch up the most murderous ideology on the planet is accessible via your nearest mirror.

          • JoJoJams

            Lmao! Puhlease! What an ignorant comment. But pretty much expected. It’s actually your ignorant thick skull that needs to brush up on history and learn of the tens and tens of millions killed by communism in less than its hundred years on earth, not to mention the “Religion of Peace”(tm) and its own tens and tens of millions murdered in its 1300+ years existance. Talk to ancient persia. Talk to the Hindus of India. Islam has spread by the sword, starting with mad mo, and Jihad raged immediately following his death, to where the barbaric islamic hordes over-ran nearly a third of Christiandom before the Christian west finally fought back with the Crusades, and stopping you ignorant pathetic people at the gates of Vienna. Islam in it’s 1300+ year existance, and communism (Russian and Chinese versions) in their mere 100 years (less for China) have each individually by orders of magnitude murdered more people than the US has killed, either in just wars, or covert operations or anything. Son – grow up and get a brain. If you’re muslim, I understand your ignorance and where it comes from. If you’re not muslim – well – you’re a pathetic excuse for a human being. Do some real research and learn about all of history of this human race. You obviously know jack squat. LMAO! @ you!

          • HandsoffSolo

            anyone who writes LMAO like a teenage girl should never be taken seriously, the Christian West fought back? I think you’re a bit rose tinted about the disgusting horrors the Church has inflicted on the human race, I’m no fan of empire full stop, yes even Islamic ones because I’m objective like History and facts are.

            And less we forget the Kiddy-fiddling the church has been doing on the grand scale as well 600 years of slavery to boot.

            No shhh.

          • JoJoJams

            LMAO, still (at you!! ;-) ) I’ve been called far worse, by far better muslims than you, son. Obfuscate, deflect, lie and twist truth all you want – you’re still wrong. I don’t deny certain atrocities committed by the Catholic church in her long history – and you shouldn’t deny the far worse atrocities committed by you muslim nutjobs throughout your 1300+ years history. but you will. You’re a muslim, after all, and lying and ignoring reality and true history seems to be par for the course for the ignorant hordes that make up the muslim ummah. You definitely aren’t “objective” regarding history, if you fail to see the depravity and jihad committed across this globe, from Iran, to India (tens of millions of Hindus alone massacred by Tamerlane and islamic barbarians), from Africa to Asia – and stopped at the gates of vienna. Yes, there were atrocities commited during the Crusades. Yet, the crusades never would have happened if the islamic hordes on Jihad didn’t take over (in jihad, by the sword – massacring) nearly 1/3 of Christiandom. I can definitely tell you’re an ignorant muzzy though, because you obviously have no clue that there is a huge difference (and number of followers) between what you call “the church”, and the protestant type christian churches. the divide is even greater than your Sunni/Shiite divide.
            And you actually have the unmitigated stupidity to mention slavery?? It was africans and muslims selling the slaves to the west. Isalm doctrinally is aok with slavery, since your psychotic prophet had slaves, and how to treat ones slaves is outlined in sharia, your god’s “perfect word for all ages” – so, while it took white, western Christian rich men, using the power of the imperialist states of the west to END the age-old human institution of slavery, the world over, if it were up to islam and hte barbaric ummah, following the examples and edicts of your perverse “prophet”, slavery would make a comeback as a human institution. Regression – which is pretty much all that islam is good for.
            Nice try though! But I think you’ve been banging your forehead a bit too hard in to the magic carpet during your daily prayers.

          • Elxlr

            I pray to God that your offsprings show you the right path.

            Btw, how would you describe the situation, that many westerner more like you or different personalities, considering the logical basis and the way you process information; many are accepting or reverting/converting to Islam, and why even , as you described clearly about islam, its bad things its the fastest growing religion out of 3 big religions.

            I’m muslim. Pray that you be one day, coz whatever our info is, its either pro-islam or anti-islam. You not being able to appreciate nothing about it which were appreciated in lots of systems used in WEST today ( medical and law etc ) makes your logical statements less credible and make you look like an ignorant. And I am not talking in derogatory way. All the things in life come down to two ways mostly, and we chose one. You seem to have chosen one way completely and see every new or old thing/ info in that way and vice versa. When you are bashing someone, means on the other hand you are defending the other one no matter whatever they did in history if you see it in that ( come down to two sides ) way. You are a knowledge seeking man. Same as me irrespective of what the knowledge itself we learn. its the attitude. I as having an attitude ALWAYS worry, what if i am getting some info , What if that is wrong, then all of my judgement and basis will go to trash. I believe you have this one too, if doesn’t, be careful brother. because you may …….. ( I wanna ask you one question, If we learn wrong knowledge, in what ways it will effect or cloud our judgement). Excuse me for my English language skills.

          • JoJoJams

            You need to seriously contemplate your own question – what if you are wrong and are following a false prophet and “god”, being misled by false information. Contrary to the typical claims of muslims to everything around them, islam is not the fastest growing religion. In the western world, that would probably be atheism.

            Contrary to your “prophet” and his claims, drinking camel pi$$ is not medically beneficial, and as to the laws in sharia, – many are so patently absurd I can’t help but wonder how anyone could believe it’s from god. First cousin marriages ok? Two women’s testimony to equal a man’s? 4 witnesses needed to prove a rape? Chopping off heads? Child marriages and slavery are allowed in islam?? I could go on and on – and am amazed that anyone could believe your “prophet” and his edicts are from any kind of god.

            And all this comes just from reading of your self-professed prophet, in his own words, in the quran and the hadiths. Would a prophet of god have a poetess killed because she made fun of him? And not just killed, but killed cowardly at night, while she was breast feeding her child!! Would a prophet of god be a caravan robbing warlord, forcing his will and ways, taking(stealing) warbooty, including woman, taken as sex slaves. Would a prophet of god marry a 6 year old and consummate that marriage when she was 9 and he 54? Would a prophet of god declare that god told him his cousins wife should be his, and demand her from him? If you are going to follow a religion, starting with the alleged prophet and examining his actions and declarations are where one should start – not ignorantly “submit” to the rules and edicts without questioning them.

            I disbelieve in the ignorance of islam simply by looking at the actions and edicts of your very mentally sick prophet, not to mention the actions of his followers around this world. If it weren’t for the apostasy laws and the ignorant rabble of muslim crowds, riled by power-hungry imams, and logic and reason were actually allowed in, people would end up leaving islam in droves – for the foolishness and ignorance that it espouses. These “negative” views and my “attitude” towards islam comes from…….(wait for it!!……)……READING ISLAM ITSELF, and seeing it in action around the world. It amazes me the loops you muslims go through to put some “holy” spin on the actions of your prophet. Another holy book says something to the effect of, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil.” Muslim claims to the contrary, your “god” is quite plainly not my G-d.

            In a book that was written 600 years before your self-alleged prophet was even born (adding to another set of books written thousands of years before mad mo), it’s mentioned of a “one world” religion, rampaging through the world, chopping off people’s heads and persecuting “unbelievers” that don’t bow down and follow what is described as the “anti-Christ”. Islam fits the description to a tee. How can you honestly look at the examples and edicts of your self-alleged prophet, and put some ridiculous “holy spin” on the atrocities and stupid, self-centered proclamations he made, and actually think he is “the perfect man”, to be emulated? I think the prophet of the Christian religion has much more to offer the world than your mentally sick prophet, author of the satanic verses known as the “holy” quran. You muslims claim to believe in Jesus, as a prophet, yet you fail to hear and heed any of his words.

            Quite simply, islam is not of god, and mohammed is most definitely not a “holy” prophet. He was a warmongering, cheating, stealing mentally sick pervert – and this by his own words and actions, as read in your own “holy” books! ~ not some modern western propaganda!

          • JoshLRussell

            Just come across this. I know you think you’re being logical, but you aren’t. You’re just repeating your own received dogma because you’re as blinded by hatred as the people you supposedly stand against. Also, just as one non-muslim to another, you’re also an utter, utter penis.

          • Stu

            Thats a heck of a list not to be proud of by America – BTW you missed one – Iraq war 2003

        • Stu

          Of course there were over a million killed in the Iraq war, . A war based on a lie about wmd

          • Elxlr

            @JoJoJams, Still no respectful terms to debate on what you stated. Can you define “authentic reference” in your terms, not what a dictionary says. Please! And what do you consider better muslims? What even made you say someone is better or worse than me based on WHAT things or assumptions or facts, please? They gave you more respect or what? opposite! Please respond in respect, I’ll reply otherwise you may enjoy your way of life.

          • Elxlr

            Please don’t flag no matter how debilitating it is, OR JojoJams, you can find me at elxxxlr@gmail (dot) com

      • bingyboy

        You are so enlightened Mr. Free Thinker–smart people stay out of the affairs of others–let all the Muslim animals kill themselves–that would be fine with me, too!

    • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

      @jojojams: Brother, I could easily have used derogatory words against u just like U but me being a Muslim have been taught to be in gentle in speech. I never felt beards stupid. & all the prophets & Jewish Rabbis, & early Christian missionaries, & Hindu sadhus, & Renaissance scientists sported beards. Moreover, keeping beards is scientific. & Islam preaches scientific practices. There are doubts about her actual age at consummation of marriage being between 9 to 19 years. & Before Muhammad, Aisha was already engaged to another man before being engaged to Muhammad. So that shows that whatever be her age, it was the accepted norm then. None of Muhammad’s critics at that time raised this issue(which indicates that her age must have been nearer to 19). Islam was the first to give slaves rights, that too innumerable. It made it a good act and an atonement for sins to free slaves and Zakat was introduced for the freeing of slaves themselves. Many of the early Muslims were slaves. Had it been discriminatory, they wouldn’t have become so. Islam never advocated slavery & its stance(freeing them, zakat, etc..) was meant to finally lead to abolition of slavery. Immediate abolition of slavery would have made the unskilled slaves starve to death. Instead the masters were ordered to feed them, clothe them as they did, take care of their medical benefits, etc. denying which the slave may need to be freed. Who taught that in the 7th century?? The Jews themselves broke the treaty by committing treason as is well known even after promising unity in case of an attack. Islam only rebukes the erring Jews. In fact, Islam goes out of turn to mention that righteous Jews will go to heaven along with the righteous Muslims. Jews were always treated fairly in Muslim countries as The People of the Book and they flourished. They were given shelter when they faced persecution from the Christians who treated them cruelly. Never in Islam have boys been executed as they are juveniles. Only adolescent males are considered adults & liable for penalties. Muhammad never raped a woman & what do u mean by effective? A pervert would never marry a twice widowed lady 15 years elder than him & remain solely with her till her death when he was 50 years old. All his wives were widows or divorced except Aisha. & do not equate Muslims with Islam. Muslims do many wrong things nowadays which doesn’t make Islam imperfect. Homosexuality is bad. It is bad for the society as well as for health. So nipping it in the bud is the way forward. The Quran nowhere advocates death penalty or any other worldly punishment for apostates. Adulterers are bad & so are thieves & so deserve punishment. It is the lacklustre attitude of the west towards them that emboldens them. The theft rates in Arab nations is very low because of these strict laws. There is nothing wrong that has been enshrined in the Islamic laws. & U don’t seem to know the meaning of Jihad. Jihad means struggle. It encompasses one’s fight with his own deficiencies, care for his parents, etc. & this is the greater Jihad only if u knew. Wherever Muslims have gained a foothold, wealth has followed, whether it be the Arab land, or the Hindustan under Muslim rule or Spain under Muslims. Science & culture flourished under the early Muslim Rule for many centuries in Arab, North Africa, Spain etc. when the Dark Ages had engulfed Europe. It was the advances in the Muslim world that was a major driver in the Renaissance in Europe. What source do u use to show those transcription figures? Leave alone the Muslim world, Iran itself publishes more than twice the number of books than Mexico. I appreciate if Jews have got a lot of Nobel Prizes & I will reiterate that Islam doesn’t classify all Jews as evil. But remember that the Nobel Prizes were instituted in the 20th century. So what about the scientific achievements before the 20th century? If Isaac Newton didn’t get a Nobel Prize, does it make him lesser than any Nobel Laureate today?? Similarly, Aryabhatta(a Hindu) and Al-Khwarizmi and Avicenna were not born in an era of Nobel Prizes but their achievements surpass many. Stop reading anti-Islamic literature brother & instead try to instead understand the true Islamic spirit by reading from Islamic sites or secular/neutral sites, I hold no grudges against any religion as I am a Muslim.

      • danato

        Brilliant scientists or mathematicians, happening to be born at the wrong place in the wrong religion. Their genius has no justification with islam whatsoever. None of their breakthroughs is because of islam. There are a lot of jewish nobel price winners, but not because they are jew. It’s because these persons are brilliant. No one, except a fanatic who is not taken serious by the general opinion, will claim that it is thanks to him being jewish.

        Mohammedanism, or submittance to Allah, has stopped florishing even before the renaissance. Cultures die out, look at the egyptians, the azteques, the greeks, the incas. Even the christians, who don’t find any justification of war in their holy books, question their religion, or religion in general. Many of them (of us) cut the crap and base their morals on more present-day ethics.
        Dare to disapprove of allah. Noone has ever seen him or felt his wrath after muhammad threathened his minions with those fairytales.

        • Brandon Roberts

          ok that still does not change that not all religous are psychotic zealots that are fairytale believing morons not all atheists are arrogant jerks your i.q has nothing to do with your religon o.k

      • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

        @9c0182d6f01bcc6febb2614b0890e7f3:disqus : Greetings bro. Well, u really need to brush up your info. Islam (or Mohammedanism, in your words) is flourishing even today & will increase from 23.4% to 26.4% of world population from 2010 to 2030 (20 years). And This is no data by a Muslim organisation but from Pew Research Center, an American thinktank.
        http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/the-future-of-the-global-muslim-population/

        • jackie jackson

          you are only growing because of apostasy laws and the massive breeding program you force on women. Islam should be banned in all civilised countries and if you want mosques then go live in an Islamic country. don’t force your ways on lus. we do not want or need it.

          • Tahani Hussein

            The Quran says there is no compulsion in religion … we don’t force our ways on anyone even though you do need it and want it. What kind of life are you living? you mate with anyone you meet on the street and then you leave them.. what kind of behavior is this? is this what you call civilized? where is your dignity? where is your respect for your women? The way you treat your women is degrading and oppressing. I am a proud Muslim woman and I cover my body because I refuse to be enslaved by the western culture and its demands on me to be sexy.. I am liberated because I don’t need to impress anyone and I don’t need to worry about the way I look. Do your research, you will be suprised to see that Islam is actually growing because people are finding the truth and not by what you claim “apostasy laws” and “massive breeding program” clear your ignorance because it’s very disturbing.

          • Lu

            I think you also need to clear your ignorance. I know of many practicing Muslim men in Egypt who have many sexual partners (many grooming and pursuing girls as young as 16), smoke drugs, and drink an abundance of alcohol whilst on visits to Sharm el Sheikh. They are very open about it. Where is the dignity and respect for women here? But I don’t generalise and judge all Muslim men this way, so please do not judge all non-Muslims in the way that you are in your comment. Everyone lives their lives differently, but at the end of the day we are all one race… The human race.

          • enchodus .

            twisted and meaningless logic..you make no point by your point!

        • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

          @disqus_8UeXPW0CSZ:disqus: peace and greetings of the Almighty b on u brother. Well, talking about the breeding program, if u go by the CIA World Factbook (latest data available as per my info), 8 of the 12 countries with highest birth rates r Christian majority. Then, y is Christianity stagnating?? I do agree that Muslims have a high fertility rate but Christians & Hindus aren’t very different. Conversions have played a very important role, whether u like it or not. 25% of the Muslims in US r converts.!!
          & Y r u so afraid of Islam? Afraid of being civilised by Islam?? V r not forcing our ways on u. U follow your religion & v ours. I used 2 condemn when Hindu groups (BJP & its associates) burnt down churches in India. But by your logic, I should support them & drive out the 20 million + Christians from India. Huh!!

          • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

            @bodica:disqus : Peace and Blessings of “God” be on u.
            Quote me a single unambiguous verse in the entire Bible where Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) himself says “I am God” or “Worship me”. Tell me & I convert to Christianity immediately. But Alas, u will not.
            Going by your logic, if I am a “Christian”, I can do anything. I can go around, kill innocents in Iraq, in Afghanistan, invade their land, destroy their property and I go scot free. Because “Christ will redeem me”. Then anyone following your religion is a danger to this entire world and all Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, etc. Beware!!!
            Open your eyes, brother. I have a lot to say but I restrain now because of my exams.
            If being “Christian” means following the teachings of Christ then I am a Christian. & I am more a Christian than u all. Because I believe Jesus (PBUH) is the Christ, the Messiah. He was born of a virgin, raised the dead to life, healed the sick. I don’t eat pork or drink alcohol because he forbade it. I add Peace Be Upon Him after his name, unlike u……

          • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

            bodica : Peace and Blessings of “God” be on u.

            Quote me a single unambiguous verse in the entire Bible where Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) himself says “I am God” or “Worship me”. Tell me & I convert to Christianity immediately. But Alas, u will not.
            Going by your logic, if I am a “Christian”, I can do anything. I can go around, kill innocents in Iraq, in Afghanistan, invade their land, destroy their property and I go scot free. Because “Christ will redeem me”. Then anyone following your religion is a danger to this entire world and all Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, etc. Beware!!!
            Open your eyes, brother. I have a lot to say but I restrain now because of my exams.
            If being “Christian” means following the teachings of Christ then I am a Christian. & I am more a Christian than u all. Because I believe Jesus (PBUH) is the Christ, the Messiah. He was born of a virgin, raised the dead to life, healed the sick. I don’t eat pork or drink alcohol because he forbade it. I add Peace Be Upon Him after his name, unlike u……

          • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

            Miip :
            Peace and blessings be on you sister Margaret! What do you mean by murdering the family?? Who said that Islam teaches that? Quote your source!!
            About the killings part, it is pure hypocrisy on your part to even mention that! Who caused the 2 world wars and killed millions? Who took indentured labourers and
            slaves to America causing death en route as well as in the plantations?? Who enslaved colonies throughout the world brutally leading to innumerable human losses?? Who gassed the Jews?? Who led the Great Mongol Horde that slaughtered millions?? Who has raged a war in Iraq on false pretexts?? They weren’t Muslims!!! This is no topic worth discussing! Because we won’t achieve anything reopening old wounds that have been or may have been healed. Especially when the culprits themselves are no more alive (in most cases)!! Let us forget our scarred past & love each other, understand each other. I accept that Muslims can be and many are imperfect. As they needn’t be always following what Islam says. Because neither does Islam & nor does any other religion nor does atheism (I hope so) recommend genocide..

          • Baibars

            Media teaches them, they program their heads Aasim Brother, JizakAllah for your steadfastness here.
            They think they’re civilized but they in fact are the illiterate and the vandals who are not evolving themselves but lessening their values. Hundreds of thousands of single moms are in their enlightened agnostic and atheist world.
            Society is theirs that is corrupt not ours we still have a great family structure.
            Its media that makes them think this way by highlighting one single occurrence in a million.
            They only rely on one source that is media, They never research anything they talk about love and peace and yet you see whats happening in Muslim countries by their hands
            They still can’t prove you (one guy) wrong and this page is abounded by them.
            Wow how educated they are O/.

          • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

            Wa iyyakum brother. I pray that Allah grants them knowledge and guides them to Siratul Mustaqeem.
            Its very encouraging when someone speaks in support. Its so rare. :)

          • Miip

            @mohammad, your relgion islime is not civilized!!!!!! Cutting peoples heads off or murdering your family because they embarrass your perverted & pathetic male ego is definitely not civilized!!!! You have some gall even bringing up the Hindus when it was islam that has slaughtered millions upon millions thru the ages & still are! Your religion is nothing more than a death cult & war mongering regress….

      • bodica

        Boy o boy are you into taqquiya. Everything here is a LIE! OK. You may believe it yourself, if you’ve been brainwashed sufficiently in an abusive Madrassa, but not a word of truth here. I dont ‘read anti islamic literature.’ I go to source and believe me that book of yours condemns itself. As for ‘no grudges’ explain the murder of CHRISTIAN CHILDREN in Syria; the murder of helpless unarmed monks in Alexandria; the kidnapping of nuns in Syria; the rape of women all around the world; the rape and murder of very young English girls. As for Ayesha, she was five when the perv lusted for her, but did not consummate the ‘marriage’ until she was nine. One of the few moslem girls that was allowed to have a toy – brought her doll with her; of course he did other vile acts between five and nine. As for marrying widows – he did that to access their homes and property, so no prizes for you!

        • enchodus .

          girl oh girl you are one under educated moron and also with a grudge, not unlike many foolish punks around you…….for reasons sake, who on earth are you to judge Islam…what in the world do you know about Islam other than the crap that is delivered to you by crap ….. go back and lurk in your lusts, better for you, and for the other morons here like you!

          • StEwPiD_MoNkEy

            Why wouldn’t we judge Islam. It is not above reporach. Talk about religion of peace, yet you are calling people morons. You are a great representative. lol.

          • Baibars

            Stupid Monkey,
            Don’t you see the way Bodica was lying I mean he was alleging and abusing the Prophet (SAW),
            I mean he should not use such words while debating.

      • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

        @bodica:disqus : Well, blessings & peace of the Almighty b on u.
        Firstly, I have never gone 2 a madrasa. In fact, I have studied at Christian missionary institutions. Where does the Quran condemn itself?? Please quote! & How am I responsible for any act done by someone hundreds of miles away from me?? Now, I 2 can say that u r responsible (having “grudges”) & thus go around killing innocent civilians, raping women in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. But I restrain because that is illogical. The state in which these countries are today is largely thanks to Western intervention.

        • Yussuq madiq

          I am an atheist, but I would say that this statement is good. I believe in logic, not in any superstitious beliefs. In regards to the bible and the Qur’an, I consider them at par with any Harry Potter books. Both are fictional books that have poor moralities.
          Anyway, peace to all, both Christians and Muslims. I do hope that you take the red pill someday and see what reality is.

          • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

            @madiq : Brother Yusuf, Peace & blessings be on u.
            Poor moralities (with respect to Quran)?? I am at a loss!!! Only if u took the pain to elaborate…
            & If u had believed in logic, u wouldn’t have deserted the Quran & Islam. I just pray that Insha’Allah u will be guided back to the Straight path.

          • enchodus .

            although I admire your final respects, it amazes me the superiority complex some people suffer from….Yussuq, I’m a Muslim as well as a highly skeptic person….in my life, I have never taken anyone’s word for granted without checking on my own, even my own instructors both at school and in college. What I’m trying to say, if what you say is true and the Qur’an was a fairy tale, I would have sniffed that and rejected it long before you’ve heard of it, but, when you get to know the Qur’an the way I came to know it, you would realize it was never a fairy tale, but a very agonizing story to those who disbelieve….

    • Junis

      Boo. You don’t even believe in the accuracy of your own comment.

    • Muhammad Aasim Shamim

      @jojojams : Brother, I myself don’t sport any beard. Nor does my father. But that doesn’t make me mock anyone who does so. Its a personal choice and no one has any business forcing anyone to do or not do so. If a person feels good sporting a beard, how does it affect u? Poking nose in everyone’s personal life, right?? Now, I study medicine and am a man of science and know very well how beards are scientific. Just in short, beards block 90 to 95 percent of UV rays, thereby slowing the aging process and reducing the risk of skin cancer. Additionally, all that hair retains moisture and protects against the wind, keeping you looking young and fresh-faced. What’s more, shaving is usually the cause of ingrown hairs and bacterial infections that lead to acne. Child marriage is something which is not just just seen in the Muslim world. You can see it in India too. Islam never introduced slavery. As opposed to pre-Islamic slavery, Islam restricted the origination of enslavement in only two classes or circumstances: capture in war, or birth to parents who are themselves both already enslaved. Its plain logic that it would lead to
      a gradual phase-out. On top of that, even for the existing slaves, it made it a good act and an atonement for sins to free slaves and Zakat was introduced for the freeing of slaves themselves. Many of the early Muslims were slaves. And at that time Muslims were being persecuted and tortured with the Quraysh rulers especially targeting converted slave Muslims with imprisonment and physical torments. They came to Islam only because it upheld their rights more and not because of your flawed
      logic. And about the rich European imperialists, I know what they did in the guise of indentured labour to Indians especially my ethnic group Biharis. If u have a biased mind that everything pro-Islam is wrong and everything against is right, then I can’t help. And can u please quote where does Quran tell Jews as descendants of apes and pigs. U need to take help of falsehood to spread Islamophobia, isn’t it? I continue to repeat that some actions of Muslims need not be in lines with Islam
      just as views of some Christians may not be in line with Christianity. Your cake of proofs against Islam seems to be sour tasting & thus u need to add a false icing to improve its taste. Islam is what is the Prophet’s deeds & not what Muslims may do. Wars were fought by many prophets (David[PBUH] fought 27 battles). Muhammad[PBUH] never fought a battle in aggression unprovoked and was the first to give the most humane set of laws for war. And even then, if anyone fights u in a
      war, what do u do? Sit idle & get killed. Or retaliate to save yourself? And in this retaliation, the aggressor is bound to be killed. It was his first wife who herself approached him for marriage and not he who went to her. Even if apostasy is punishable in Islam, it is also clear to the guy who joins Islam voluntarily and knowing its rules. It is similar to a sepoy joining an Army and if he defects to the other side, it amounts to treason. And brother, don’t teach us to follow Jesus[PBUH]. We follow him more than u do. Who are the largest teetotallers in the world? Which is the largest community abstaining from pork? Its the Muslims & it
      was taught by Jesus[PBUH]. Jesus foretold the coming of Muhammad[PBUH] and we follow him. Jesus[PBUH] did forgive a lady for adultery but that was more of an exception rather than the rule because Bible itself advocates death penalty for the aduterers. Islam does give guidelines for war as war is an unescapable truth of life. But Islam replaces this with jihad whose guidelines are still unparalleled in magnanimity. It teaches sparing non-combatants, not burning trees, fields, protecting religious structures, monks, travellers, children, not harming those who have surrendered, no plundering, protecting the prisoners of war, no surprise attacks, never warring unprovoked, etc. Please tell where Islam teaches pillaging as part of war. Jihad was taught also by Jesus[PBUH] and also by others. And I don’t know which data u refer with respect of your trancribing stats. Please quote if its worth quoting! Islam is the answer to today’s problems in the world. Unregulated capitalism has a tendency to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Islam obliges all rich people to pay part of their wealth annually to the poor so that the wealth gets redistributed in the society in order to protect the poor from perpetual poverty and give them a fair chance to compete in a world dominated by the tyranny of capital. It teaches equality of all races and people, whether black or white. Islam obliges believers to stand together in one line, shoulder to shoulder
      and foot to foot, and prostrate their foreheads to God so that they learn they are all humble servants of the Almighty. No person is better than the other except in righteousness. Dogs hated in Islam?? It only tells to avoid keeping them as pets because even vets will tell u that dogs r unhygenic. & let me complement your half baked knowledge. A prostitute had seen a thirsty dog hanging about a well and given it water to drink. Muhammad[PBUH] informed her that God forgave her because of that good deed. Once again brother, I have to be soft in words as I am a Muslim & Islam teaches me to b gentle in speech even when arguing. Sorry for the delay as my exams were going on. It would b nice of u if u mentioned your faith (I guess Christian) & nationality if u communicate further. And I would end by praying to The Almighty to guide u 2 The Truth.

  • Abdur Razzaq bin Mohamed Ali

    :-), After trying hard with their Atheists rant, Ape theory, White Supremacy, Black underdeveloped brains, matter came into existence without informing Atheists, black hole blunder, where is the missing link, etc. unable to reply to all this simple question, its better to accept the defeat, well done Atheists. Bravo. Subhan-Allaah (which means Glory to Allaah), O Allaah, you are THE CREATOR, your creation i.e. me, atheists, Muslim, Non-Muslims, and all that you have created which we can witness is free from your denial as per our natural disposition. So, forgive us, and guide as you have guided your beloved Prophet and Messenger, Adam, Idris (Enoch), Nuh (Noah), Hud, Saleh, Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma’il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Lut (Lot), Ya’qub (Jacob), Yousef (Joseph), Shu’aib, Ayyub (Job), Musa (Moses), Harun (Aaron), Dhu’l-kifl (Ezekiel), Dawud (David), Sulaiman (Solomon), Ilias (Elias), Al-Yasa (Elisha), Yunus (Jonah), Zakariyya (Zechariah), Yahya (John),’Isa (Jesus) and the last and FINAL Muhammad, Peace and blessing be on all of them.

    • defcon 4

      And allaah gives muslimes the right to uncreate the najjis kaffir, as well as rape, persecute and lie to them. Because he’s holey.

    • momolala

      The missing link is the unbelievable but real muhammedus bombus erectus (‘MuhamMADus’Bombus’E-rectus) who since 622 copies a severely brain-damaged perverted killer for fear of his imaginary NaziDevil (Naazi’D’evi-L) in ze sky and for hope of endlessly raping seventy-two white teenage virgins in zat same sky. Pity, and more pity, be upon zem nutters (NU’T-TERS).

    • m4253y

      seriously, after that rant of a prayer, your knees have got to be really sore.

    • Alan

      Islam = Bigotry and Hate, Violence and Thuggery. All “Prophets” after Jesus are false prophets, especially that of the Islamics.

    • N. Wasse

      Another Arab wannabe right?

    • Mike De Fleuriot

      You forgot Joseph Smith, I think he was the Last Prophet, unless you want to include Bingham Young?

    • NoCrossNoCrescent

      What a rich mix of ignorance, straw man arguments and grandiose claims. Classic Islam.

  • Philo Vaihinger

    Glad I’m a progressive and not a liberal. I don’t have to submit my views to some official PC guru for vetting before posting. And I don’t care what they say afterward.

    • Karl

      I’m rather sick of the terms liberal and conservative as being epithets. I consider myself to be both and am damn proud of it. Now, if you want to use the terms rightist and leftist I would have no problem understanding you.

      • CowboyUp

        I don’t mind being called a conservative, but I don’t use the word “liberal,” to describe leftists, because they aren’t. I associate the word with people like Locke and Jefferson, who were pretty much antipodal to socialist thought.

        • Deco

          Actually if you are in Australia – Liberals are conservatives of the right.

    • CowboyUp

      “Progressive,” is the word leftists started using when they finished corrupting the word “liberal,” and too many people figured out what they meant by it. Before that it was “socialism.” They’ll come up with another opposite term to what they are to label themselves with when they wear out “progressive.”

  • glpage

    Perhaps Mr Frye should have ended his little apologia with, “Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.”

  • tagalog

    “And that group might easily include Americans, Russians, or Britons, come to that.”

    But interestingly enough, it never includes them, and it never comes to that. That part of the equation is never enunciated.

  • http://eacafe.blogspot.com/ Oo_oc_oO

    I guess their thinking is that since there exist people who go beyond criticism of Islam into irrational hatred, then we have to sort of correct for this by silencing even moderate critiques or jokes about Islam. Sort of like how, because of slavery and Jim Crow, you can’t make fun of even the more ridiculous aspects of black culture in the US, such as gangsta rap, without being labelled “racist.” Or because some people truly hate homosexual people, we can’t even question whether homosexual behavior might not really be such a great life choice.

    There are many problems with that way of thinking. For one, it lacks the ability to make even fairly obvious distinctions between someone who is irrationally hateful and someone who is only making a logical argument against a belief, rather than against a person. It also exhibits its own form of bigotry, in that it assumes that certain groups of people are too stupid, sensitive and/or excitable to be able to defend themselves, and need special protections that other groups are able to live without. In addition, it assumes that not being made fun of is a human right that trumps the right to free speech.

  • Edward MacGuire

    You don’t believe there was an Islamic Golden Age ? Try typing it into google and see how many hits you get. Almost every visible star has an Arabic name.

    • JoJoJams

      Well, I would posit that their alleged “golden age” was really nothing more than the barbarians of islam taking over more advanced nations, peoples and cultures, and that the scholars of those ages merely continued on in what they were already doing, only “accepting” islam to keep from being frickin killed, for the most part. And as these nations slid deeper in to the cesspool of islamic doctrine and the imposition of Sharia, they slid further in to decay and ignorance, the poverty and sickness that is exhibited in every single “islamic republic of blah blah blah” hell-hole we see throughout this world today.

      • Brian Westley

        By all means, keep yourself ignorant and just make up crap. Maybe frontpagemag will hire you as a writer.

        • Mike De Fleuriot

          Why are you reading frontpagemag then Brian?

  • NSXGT

    “imaginary Muslim golden age”
    Seriously?

    • JoJoJams

      Seriously. See my comment to Edward below.

  • eeenok

    in general the problem isn’t that islam can’t be criticized. liberals criticize islam all the time. the problem is that the muslim world is so generally backward that useful criticism is stuck at one particular point: the muslim tendency to bully people within their culture into being religious, and the general acceptance that there is something outrageously wrong and unacceptable about leaving the faith. unless muslims want to deal with this issue, which is the roadblock to evolving a more rational and pro-social religion, there’s not much value addressing all the peripheral problems as the west does with christianity; and it’s these attacks on multiple fronts (as well as the higher cultural relevance of christianity) that makes if look like people treat christianity as being worse. all that’s really happening is that the basic issues of free religious choice and freedom to criticize were won from christianity a few decades ago and so currently the anti-christianity process looks completely different. the main thrust of this article, focusing on the way people criticize irrational bigotry against islam, is not only misdirecting people from the most important issues of where the rational anti-islamic argument is located, but it’s also unhelpfully attacking a valid complaint about how ignorant criticism of a religion impedes us from getting anywhere in these conversations

  • Mark

    Islam takes their fairy story as the actual god’s word. Christians have very much gone away from that. They are not allowed to question nor alter the verses. The Hadiths are similar. 60 percent of the Quran is violent and the Hadiths even worse. Unless Islam changes and not us, it will be violent. Why is the UK blaming itself and not the teachings of the Quran? We need to keep criticising it, if we do not it will never change.

  • dazza
  • jan

    “Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes – from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion – [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers”(Sahih International Translation of Quran, 60:7-9)

  • JR Anderson

    It is Isaac vs. Ishmael. We shall see who wins.

  • Open_mind

    Well I am a huge critic of Islam. I don’t hesitate to openly criticize Islam although I live in a secular state but which has officially about 85% of population belonging to muslim religion.

    One thing that I just noticed and which raged me is that I really can’t write word ‘muslim’ correctly without putting a capital letter infront. Different language standards are used when writing words ‘christian’ or ‘atheist’.

    This shows that the fear there is programmed even in your English (US, UK) internet softwares!

  • Ozwil

    I love you, Stephen Fry!

  • Jon Newman

    No,
    Just criticise Judaism and see a real shitstorm If you point out that
    swinging a chicken round your head is stupid and cruel you be will labelled
    an anti-Semite for life.

    • JoJoJams

      LMao!~ I highly doubt that! But I’m sure the labels “ignorant” and “stupid fool” might get applied. lmao! Too funny! ((huh? Oh, you were serious….**pfffttt***bwahahahah!!! :D ))

    • Georgina

      Maybe, but you won’t find a edath threat on your doorstep. Or a bomb.

  • raf
  • Peggy Thatcher

    I was once hammered because I merely stated that parts of the Koran advocated violence.

  • Dreamer

    Racism and Bigotry is for small minded idiots. Islamophobia is common
    sense.
    Islam is a political ideology protected and enforced by religion. Our laws
    protecting an individual’s faith should not apply to Islam (as they do not
    extend the same courtesy to others). Muslims are using our laws against us for
    a political agenda that will make them a majority within a calculable time
    frame. “The womb of the Arab women is my strongest weapon” Yasser
    Arafat.
    I am one of the old school polite mustn’t grumble working class Brits. I am
    beginning to realize that I, like so many are guilty of complacency. How have
    we been so stupid as to let the Muslim invasion creep up on us like this, it’s
    embarrassing. It is time more people wake up to this imminent threat to our way
    of life. I’m not sure it is even possible to stop now, as it is not really being addressed by most of the population. The majority of the population see
    the EDL as sequestered football hooligans (and to some extent they would be right, but at least they are exposing “Non Muslim No Go areas”). It would take a complete change in public attitude and the way our government is structured. Even then, it will take years to stop the progression and generations to repair the damage. I think we need to face up to the fact that Muslims had no intention of integrating into our society and the ones that do live in fear of terrible reprisals.

  • Junis

    If Islam is the only religion that atheists cannot criticize, what is the above article doing?

    • Nissim Levy

      You should read what he said. Islam is the only religion that the Left will skewer you for criticizing.

  • Brian Bailey

    Not exactly Orwell, a leftist who was an adept at skewering the Left mercilessly, but Fry’s forelock tugging screed will have to do in these PC times. Though the emperor is still a bit underdressed, I’m afraid.

  • Hellosnackbar

    Islam is without doubt the most criticised religion by atheists(see Christopher Hitchens on YouTube !
    Several Brit comedians have openly admitted that comic derision of Islam might result in their murder.
    Courageous Pat Condell ignores this and presents a regular anti- Islam rant on YouTube!
    Objections supplied by Musloids are inane and insipid.
    Like Richard Dawkins he receives all kinds of death threats; which are published on his web site :www.patcondell.net

  • Ibn Juferi

    Why do you pe3ople make fun of us. Just because we muslims are circumcised?> Not fair. Actually it was your clown Abraham who started this whole genital mutilation stuff. So there. And I am a muslim too.
    -MENJ

  • HandsoffSolo

    Comparing Maher to Fry is the worst insult you could give to Fry.

  • Mark W.

    In time, religion will lose it’s luster as long as the right to question, debate, and rationalize is not suppressed. It is a primitive belief system that holds no supporting evidence validating its authority. It could vanish today, and humanity would only benefit from its disposal in the long run.

  • Elxlr

    Brother, What you are saying is plainly false information. No references from any authentic book or anything. I may not debate with you on the only reason that you not referencing anything but what you thought what its looks like. or has happened. MUHAMMAD (PBUH) is the ONLY MAN in history whose life is completely written, every aspect is written which can be found in the books ( AUTHENTIC books only accepted unanimously ) not by one or two guys. Believe me i need to prove only one thing, out of 100 you said, wrong and your credibility will go in trash, if your next response is not calm, there will not be any talk between us. if it is, i’m willing to talk with you as much as and as long as it goes to describe. this is my attitude, if you have the same attitude as a peaceful person you say you are without any religion, please be calm. I’ll talk with you and reply more. The only thing people are missing in this world is respect, which unfortunately is the ULTIMATE thing needed while communication. I respect your opinion but politely disagree with what you said about islam. its 1 pm and 2 pm i gotta go to work, GOD willing, I’ll reply you IF you wanna listen. Have a Good day brother.

    • JoJoJams

      So, you’re saying that mohammed didn’t state that drinking camel urine is beneficial? Or that since mohammed (your “perfect man” to be emulated….) had slaves, and Sharia proscribes how to treat slaves, that in Islam, slavery is allowed. Or that it doesn’t take two women’s testimony to equal a man, or that 4 male witnesses are needed to prove accusation of rape? Or that mad mo didn’t marry Aisha when she was 6, consummating that marriage when she was 9, and therefore child marriages are ok in Islam?
      Seriously? I could go on and on about your “religion” – and you will just put some “holy spin” on all these things, calling evil good, because mohammed did it. He raided caravans, took war booty and sex slaves – you know this, if you even read your own “holy” books. So why equivocate? I’ve heard it all before and debated better muslims than you, believe me there.

    • bodica

      Sura 9.11 – You shall strike terror into the heart of the unbeliever.

      That does it for me!

  • Lee Georgeson

    I am proud to call all religions barbaric. You might get called a bigot by some PC types, but unless you are going to jail for it, I don’t think its a concern.

  • Nate Blank

    NO RELIGION. It’s mmm,mmm good.

  • bodica

    Fry is homosexual, and like so many prominent ‘Englishmen’ he is of recent EAst European heritage.
    England, from show biz, to politics, to academia is being run by the far left children and grandchildren of Bolshevik infiltrators.
    The cultural genocide of my ancestral people precedes the de facto genocide planned by the moslems, all of whom are called to jihad, like it or not, and whose very presence in a non moslem country is a DECLARATION OF WAR or INTENT TO ISLAMIFY.

  • Allal Amrani

    Whenever I want to giggle and smile, I goole silly questions about
    Religions and they lead me to comical readings. I seriously have something to
    share that will makes everyone smile, and say wow funny, and they will attempt
    to prove when they are alone with their significant. I am sorry I cannot share
    it in public. If you did not think about it, a clue for you, I speak 4 languages
    and heard it in all. I only share details it in private, and finally they
    conclude never to speak ill of any religion.

  • Brandon Roberts

    it’s easy it’s cause you don’t care about christianity but islam your too scared to make fun of them and judiasim my geuss is everyones an anti-semite but still i don’t care wanna make fun of me go ahead just 3 rules 1. be funny 2. don’t overdo it 3. be somewhat respectful

  • raymond Benitez

    Religion has always been a disease. But in the 21st century its difficult to believe that religion has not yielded itself to modern logic and science. Today Islam is modern abomination. Islam is a modern disease and a murderous orginastion. I feel contempt for religion but I really hate Islam and their god. Find a koran and use it for toilet paper.

  • MRAAlternate

    I would hope our atheists in the west are a little stronger than to submit to ad hominem attacks against them.

  • Jan Fourowls

    This article and its comments certainly garnered the attention of the Islamist PR online apologists and, yes I dare say it, hypocrites, because Jesus also called out hypocrisy. (Even though Mohammed had not come with his child “bride,” polygamy and violence when Jesus walked the earth, the relatively low-key legalisms of the Pharisees in His day make Sharia law adherents look like total lightweights. And we know Jesus spoke “woe” to those lightweights as a point of God’s judgment against legalisms operating contrary to divine love — while also selecting Jews as His first disciples for what became Christianity. Islam typically aligns itself wherever it is the dominant religion of a nation against Jews and Christians. This comment is not the place, however, to go into the statistics and research. I’m writing to say ‘attagirl’ to you for your testimony on behalf of Jesus and his salvific blood as the Lamb of God!)

    Joy and thanks (zero shame) to you, Bodica, as a witness of behalf of Jesus Christ (“Christus Victor”) Who came not only to save us but also to have spiritual victory over the Evil One. Yes, to Jesus, the Prince of Peace, victor through the cross and resurrection over the evil prince of this world. Jesus never wielded the sword but taught that through God’s ultimate judgment those who live by the sword will die by the sword. As a true peacemaker which is only possible through the Gospel as taught in the Bible, I have my allegiance in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, praying in the name of Jesus Christ.

    There is a remnant of those who believe truly on this earth. You are my sister in the sonship of Jesus Christ. See you in the real heaven when we get there!

  • Krishna Satheeshkumar

    “praise an imaginary Muslim golden age” Hahaha!!!! What shrooms are you on, author?

  • Aaron

    The Quran states facts the bible contains fairytales sadly