Rise of the Anti-Israel Evangelicals

Jim Fletcher is a member of the executive committee for the National Christian Leadership Conference for Israel—NCLCI—and a prolific blogger. He can be reached at jim1fletcher@yahoo.com


Although a rising number of “New Evangelical” Christian leaders like Cameron Strang, Erwin McManus, and Scot McKnight tweet photos of themselves with President Obama, and a general leftward tilt has emerged within evangelicalism, one front in the cultural religious wars is particularly hot at the moment:

Israel and the Palestinians.

As recently as the ‘90s, evangelical leaders had to feel good about the strength of support for the Jewish state, especially in traditionally strong places like the Southern Baptist Convention and the Assemblies of God. Indeed, a packed-out gathering I attended to honor Benjamin Netanyahu in 1997 was so emotionally charged that one wondered if Ronald Reagan could have been any more beloved.

All that is changing.

In November 2012, Blue Like Jazz author Donald Miller wrote a scathing blogpost, and the object of his ire was Israel. Alleging—among other things—that Israel actually controls the calorie intake of Gazans. Miller presented a fairly typical rant that has been passed from the Palestinian Authority to evangelical leadership.

No longer are undocumented charges fired at Israel from America’s traditionally liberal mainline churches. Now, the rhetoric flows from the pens, keyboards, and mouths of rising stars like Lynne Hybels (co-founder of WillowCreek), Shane Claiborne, and Margaret Feinberg.

Even millionaire businessman Mart Green has gotten into the act, producing the 2011 film, “Little Town of Bethlehem,” which purports to give a balanced view of the Arab-Israeli conflict, but in fact tilts heavily toward the Palestinians. Green, who keeps a low profile, is firmly entrenched in the Bible Belt, both figuratively and literally. His Mardel Christian bookstore chain is headquartered in Oklahoma City, along with his family’s Hobby Lobby empire.

Among the skewed charges emanating from within the fort of Evangelicalism now is the one that portrays Bethlehem as a “prison,” in which hapless Palestinians are completely encircled by a high, thick wall and guard towers. The imagery fits well with Yasser Arafat’s old propaganda that flipped the Jews’ experience with the Nazis.

Of course, Israel’s security barrier is found on two sides of the famous little biblical town, not four. And the barrier was erected to stop the murder of Jews. Specifically, only a tiny portion of the wall is cement, with the rest being a fence. This is lost on the evangelicals being targeted by Palestinian propagandists; after all, how many Americans have actually been to Bethlehem?

This is a reality the New Evangelicals are loath to talk about much.

David Brog, executive director of Christians United for Israel (CUFI), is well aware of the inroads the Palestinian narrative has made into American churches:

Anti-Israel activists are making surprising inroads into the evangelical community, especially among the Millennial generation. They are telling lies about Israel.  But their lies are hitting the right moral notes and they are making progress.  We ignore them at our peril.

Miller, who has not brought forth documentation so far for the “starvation”  charge against Israel, is a leading light among Millennials. He and his friend, Cameron Strang (publisher of Relevant magazine) visited what they call “Israel/Palestine” last year, along with Hybels, who is acting as a mentor of sorts for young evangelicals eager to free Palestinians from the “occupation.”

Anti-Israel ideas incubated for decades within American seminaries, but have now reached full flower in the wider population.

In 2011, David Gushee (Mercer University) and Glen Stassen (Fuller Theological Seminary) penned an open letter to “Christian Zionists,” accusing those of us who identify with the movement as “sinning” due to support for the Jewish state. It is curious that they evidently don’t believe their own camp is sinning by supporting the Palestinians.

Rank-and-file evangelicals, though, are for the most part unaware of this shift that is taking place. It is easy to continue believing “70 million evangelicals” support Israel, but the spokesmen and leaders of the past (such as Jerry Falwell) are passing from the scene.

As they do, a new generation of leaders suspicious of Israel and her supporters are fomenting a growing hostility for the Jewish state…and her backers in the church.

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  • http://www.adinakutnicki.com AdinaK

    Let me make this inordinately clear – sans the incitement, led by the ISM terror hydra, the Church circuit would be mostly empty of anti-Israel invectives. The proof, as is said, is in their travels – http://adinakutnicki.com/2013/02/03/the-nexus-bet

    As such, their leaders, including leftist Jews, are not off the radar, particularly by those who are more than able to push back. Enough said.

    Adina Kutnicki, Israel http://adinakutnicki.com/about/

    • JacksonPearson

      The Promised Land was given to the Twelve Tribes of Israel by the LORD God. No worldly authority or power has the right to take from the Israelites the land given to them by God. I stand strong and support the right of Israel to exist.

      I am committed to the support of our Jewish brothers and sisters, and would be willing to fight for their cause and suffer beside them if moved by Him to do so.

      Although oceans separate us, our hearts remain focused upon Israel’s survival. We try to make wise effort to support their initiatives to hold and maintain their rightful inheritance of land. I also encourage a strong and public support of Israel in the face of terrorism and persecution.

  • Femi Mafe

    “… In 2011, David Gushee (Mercer University) and Glen Stassen (Fuller Theological

    Seminary) penned an open letter to “Christian Zionists,” accusing those of us

    who identify with the movement as “sinning” due to support for the Jewish state.

    It is curious that they evidently don’t believe their own camp is sinning by

    supporting the Palestinians …”

    I think this is the crux of the matter. God honors agreements. Take the instance of the Gibeonites who, even though, fraudulently, got a safe passage agreement from Joshua who promised not to attack them. An attempt by King Saul to subvert this vow got him in serious trouble.

    Now, what happened to the agreements Israel made with Palestinians on the land? Why is the present expansion not taking this into cognisance? And why are the Palestinians continuing their Qassam rocket attacks after the agreements to stop?

    The two sides need to review their present strategies to avoid sin against God.

    • Ron

      The problem with your analogy is that there is no evidence that the Givoni failed to live up to their end of the agreements. Hence the reason why God punished the House of Shaul.

      When one side abrogates the agreement, the other side is under no obligation to uphold it.

      The Arabs have made it very clear that the "Peace Agreement" is nothing more than a ruse which binds us and transfers money to them. A truly righteous government would drive these bandits out.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "Now, what happened to the agreements Israel made with Palestinians on the land?"

      They've honored many they had no need to. They've been too accommodating of criminals and murderers. What's your point?

      "And why are the Palestinians continuing their Qassam rocket attacks after the agreements to stop?"

      Oh please. They're following their religion. Are you serious?

      "The two sides need to review their present strategies to avoid sin against God."

      So they're each collectively equal in sin. We have those who follow the Bible and return to their ancient homeland, and we have those who follow Allah the cheese god and his instructions to kill all non-Muslims but in particular any Jew who does not submit to sharia.

    • Mo_

      " And why are the Palestinians continuing their Qassam rocket attacks after the agreements to stop?"

      This question shows me you have no idea what Islam even teaches. Please go learn. It will make this conflict crystal clear.

      • SCREW SOCIALISM

        For example???

    • Snorbak

      To anyone who believes that Israel is bound to honor any agreements made with the Palestinians (so called), refer them to the famous 3 No's from the Khartoum Resolutions of September 1st 1967; no peace, no recognition & no negotiations with Israel.
      The Palestinian Arabs under Arafat & now Abbas & Hamas, have repeatedly abrogated any & all rights to land by both their words & actions since 1948 let alone 1967. The crux of the matter is that they hate Jew's & Israel, period.
      With regard to the context of the article of anti Israel evangelical Christians, which in itself makes no sense. If you are against Israel you are against God & therefor not an evangelical Christian. The rise of these fringe churches are rapidly becoming the rule rather than the exception & part of the apostate church rebelling against God.

  • crackerjack

    Did any one really believe that this Christian Zionist contraption could last ? Evangelism only " supports" Israel to promote its concept of the second coming of Christ, while Zionism only embraces Evangelism as political support for Israel. Evangelists aspire a Christian Jerusalem and expect Jews to become "perfected" under Christ, while Zionists combat the rise of Evangelistic denominations in Israel.

    Each side seeks to manipulate the other for its own interests. This whole concept can only end in disaster.

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      crackerjackass,

      Islamofascists bomb churches in Pakistan, Nigeria, Indonesia

      and the FAKE "progressive" socialist "christians" still don't get it.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "Evangelism only " supports" Israel to promote its concept of the second coming of Christ, while Zionism only embraces Evangelism as political support for Israel."

      That's your crackpot theory. Leftists try that often. It's as bogus as all of your other statements.

    • ziontruth

      Let's see how long the Marxist-Islamic alliance lasts, Crackpot. Thousands of Communists killed on Khomeini's order could tell you that, if they were alive.

  • SCREW SOCIALISM

    FAKE "christians" and Islamofascists

    An Unholy Alliance

    • objectivefactsmatter

      FAKE "christians"

      Clearly, these are cultural Christians who choose their religion the way others choose social affiliations.

    • Mo_

      Yep.

  • Ron

    The younger generation of Christians are being tested by God to see if they are worthy of his protection in the coming times. We all have to remember that when all is said and done, success only comes from the will of God. Now here the politcal and economic situation is becoming terrifiying, many people write about it, and warn their communities. They buy guns, stock up on food, organize political movements to stand against the loss of freedom, etc. But their success depeneds also on Heaven. And in Heaven the question gets raised, "are these people worthy of success?" That is, are they Christians for righteous reasons, or because they are just following the crowd. So they send them a test – evil writers who demonize the Jews. If the rank and file Christians cast those wicked souls out, then they will be protected by Heaven, but if not … then they will get what they want. The same abuse they pour on the Jews, they will get on themselves.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "The younger generation of Christians are being tested by God to see if they are worthy of his protection in the coming times. We all have to remember that when all is said and done, success only comes from the will of God. "

      Those discussed in the article are a long way from that. They're off the reservation as far as the Biblical texts are concerned.

  • objectivefactsmatter

    "Although a rising number of “New Evangelical” Christian leaders like Cameron Strang, Erwin McManus, and Scot McKnight tweet photos of themselves with President Obama, and a general leftward tilt has emerged within evangelicalism…"

    No. They claim evangelicalism. There's a big, crucial distinction to be made. I'm not the queen of Sheba merely because I say so. There is no "new evangelicalism" unless Jesus Christ came again without informing me. Anyone else heard about this? I think not. If the "old evangelicalism" is not good enough, then forget the whole idea. How about rallying around the truth?

  • objectivefactsmatter

    http://www.wnd.com/2010/10/211777/

    'CHRISTIAN' MEDIA SWINGS LEFT
    10/05/2010
    by JIM FLETCHER

    David Neff is editor-in-chief for Christianity Today. The magazine is still considered to be mainstream and representative of evangelicals. It was founded when Ike was president, and it is amazing how many Christians consider CT to be their friend. In reality, it is center-left and fairly contemptuous of the issues conservative Christians hold dear.

    Witness Neff’s recent Facebook post, in which he cites a Wall St. Journal piece about the Ground Zero mosque. Neff said that “all the negative attention” the mosque project has received has in fact helped amass a war chest for the building of the mosque. Again, Neff was citing the WSJ article, but one wonders why he seems to aim a weird web of blame at Americans who find the mosque both offensive and potentially dangerous.

    Of course, the editorial staff at CT has a long history of center-left stances.

    During the first Gulf War, an editorial in the magazine went into useful idiot mode, claiming that Iraqi “Foreign Minister” Tariq Aziz was in fact a Christian. Aziz was a Christian in the sense that he apparently belonged to an Eastern Orthodox church.

    Readers with even a moderately high IQ will understand that Aziz was a Christian like Hermann Goering was a Christian. Your religious affiliation isn’t a bonus when you’re brutalizing human beings.

    Goering, the good Lutheran, was not a Christian. Aziz, a Chaldean Catholic, joined the Baath Party in 1957. Why would CT push his alleged Christian heritage when he was a key figure in the grotesquely abusive Saddam Hussein regime?

    Leftist media types, especially Christian, will often change the subject in such a conversation and ask something like, “Well, where was your criticism when the Reagan administration was cozying up to Saddam?”

    A fair question, but in another conversation. Notice this tactic of shifting focus away from the subject at hand: Why do center-left Christian media whitewash totalitarian regimes?

    Worse, why do they denigrate allegedly fellow evangelicals?

    In 1998, CT ran a cover story in which the target was evangelicals who support Israel and the teaching of Bible prophecy. It was a real hatchet job, complete with caricature figures of key prophecy teachers on the cover. It was deeply offensive, but CT just rolls along, somehow fooling even conservative Christians who think the magazine’s keepers are “one of us.”

    Much of what passes for Christian media today is really at odds with traditional, biblical perspectives. Again, though, it’s almost astonishing that large numbers of Christians seem unaware of it. Americans are too trusting.

    Writer/blogger/activist/teacher/celebrity Brian McLaren churns out books and blogs and appears serene and reasonable. He is popular today and is known for his tolerance.

    Except that he’s not tolerant at all. Read his blogs and discover what he thinks of what we’ll call Bible-believing Christians. He believes the so-called Christian Zionists are fairly dangerous to world peace. He’ll never criticize those who are actually dangerous, such as Muslims, who can’t believe their good luck that so many don’t see the symbolic nature of the Ground Zero mosque.

    • Fr. John W. Morris

      So called Christian Zionists are not only a danger to world peace, they are a serious threat to a Biblical understanding of the Gospel.. The whole message of the Gospel is that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets and the Church is the true Israel. As St. Paul wrote, "So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham." Gal. 3:7. A nation that actively persecutes the native Christians of the Holy Land cannot be chosen by God. We Americans are being manipulated by false teaching not only to compromise our national interests but to help destroy the Christian Church in the place of its birth by non Christians.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "So called Christian Zionists are not only a danger to world peace, they are a serious threat to a Biblical understanding of the Gospel."

        Wow. Then you'll teach us?

        "The whole message of the Gospel is that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets and the Church is the true Israel. "

        OK.

        "As St. Paul wrote, "So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham." Gal. 3:7"

        "A nation that actively persecutes the native Christians of the Holy Land cannot be chosen by God."

        Right. So that is why we support Israel. They're the only democracy in the region. Perhaps you're confused about details that are not yet clear by what you wrote.

        "We Americans are being manipulated by false teaching not only to compromise our national interests but to help destroy the Christian Church…"

        For a long time now.

        "…in the place of its birth by non Christians."

        That's confusing to me. It sounds like you're making some false assumptions but with all of the lies proliferating out there I can't begin to guess which ones you've accepted.

    • EarlyBird

      But the Gulf War was NOT Christian. Being against the Gulf War in the '90s is not the same as "white washing" the facts of an evil regime.

      Don't give me BS about how Saddam was Hitler, or that his invasion of Kuwait was so incredibly dreadful that we "had" to wage war on Iraq. Our war there was one of convenience, a way to ensure regional hegemony, of smacking a once complacent puppet for going off the reservation. It was a war of conquest.

      What wars did Jesus encourage? What kind of war plane would he have flown if he was around during the Gulf War?

      Many so-called conservative "Christians," at least on this site, are actually just reactionary, retrograde, nationalist war mongers, so whipped up into an End Times frenzy, so certain that anyone we dislike or fear is the Devil, that they are willing to go to war everywhere.

      The US is drunk on militarism. Sadly, it seems war making is the only thing we're really good at any more.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "But the Gulf War was NOT Christian."

        The argument can be made that it was consistent with Biblical values to uphold peace and stability and to stop an aggressor from controlling a region that would have enabled him to menace the world.

        If you want to say that Christians always oppose violence, that's a weaker case but I don't have a problem with trying it out. It's harmless but not accurate.

        • EarlyBird

          Our response to the invasion of Kuwait was way overblown, and resulted in far greater human suffering and devastation than the invasion itself.

          There were plenty of realpolitik reasons for going to war, but not a lot of Christian ones.

          A nation so ready to go to war everywhere is not practicing Christian or Biblical values.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Our response to the invasion of Kuwait was way overblown, and resulted in far greater human suffering and devastation than the invasion itself. There were plenty of realpolitik reasons for going to war, but not a lot of Christian ones. A nation so ready to go to war everywhere is not practicing Christian or Biblical values."

            Mindless pontification. I might let it slide in some cases but you do this every time you lose the argument. You summarize as though you proved your points. Epic fail.

            By the way, nations can't practice Christian values as sovereigns because Christianity is not coercive and there are no nations with totally Christian populations. Christians are to compromise to avoid conflict *whenever possible* locally and globally. That's way too complex for the most intelligent, well-informed bird that you know?

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "Being against the Gulf War in the '90s is not the same as "white washing" the facts of an evil regime. "

        Being against the Gulf War in the 1990s could be anything. I'd have to analyze the claims first before deciding whether I judge it to be whitewashing or lying.

        "Don't give me BS about how Saddam was Hitler,"

        Dude, please stop putting words in the mouths of others. It's so annoying.

        "….or that his invasion of Kuwait was so incredibly dreadful that we "had" to wage war on Iraq."

        Taking over Kuwait was an unjustified belligerence but what clearly tipped the scales was having Saddam lined up on Saudi Arabia's border. We have a treaty with them you know. So it's Christian to break defense treaties? Is that your position?

        "Our war there was one of convenience…"

        It may or may not be merely convenient to you what happens to other peoples and nations.

        "…a way to ensure regional hegemony"

        Another critical reason to support the war.

        "…of smacking a once complacent puppet for going off the reservation"

        Now you're talking like a child. As if global wars and politics are all about childish emotions. Only to those who are limited to thinking in those terms.

        "It was a war of conquest."

        Now you're just talking nonsense. It was an attempt at conquest on Saddam's part and a vast regional coalition beat him back. You want to oppose that, fine but you haven't done that with any rational reasoning.

        • EarlyBird

          "Dude, please stop putting words in the mouths of others…"

          George HW Bush regularly made comparisons between Saddam and Hitler, and compared the Kuwait invasion to the invasion of the Sudentenland. Added to it were the wildly exagerrated claims of Iraqis pillaging nurseries, etc.
          http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_ar

          "…but what clearly tipped the scales was having Saddam lined up on Saudi Arabia's border. We have a treaty with them you know."

          Our treaty is to defend SA in the event of an attack. Saddam did not attack SA, and there is no evidence he intended to. He was evil, not stupid.

          "… So it's Christian to break defense treaties? Is that your position?"

          We didn't and would not have broken the treaty as I've indicated, but yes, if it is morally worse to adhere to a treaty than to break it, yes, it would be Christian to break it.

          "It may or may not be merely convenient to you what happens to other peoples and nations."

          So now you care about Arab Muslims.

          I agree, by the way, that there are some (not necessarily overwhelming) moral arguments for maintaining hegemony, at times. I agree.

          I was writing figuratively about "slapping" Saddam, in regard to our desire to maintain hegemony. Don't be simple.

          "Now you're just talking nonsense."

          Given that our entire relationship with Iraq up to that point had been imperialistic, and Saddam's desire to break from that relationship, yes, it was imperialistic and a war of conquest – or perhaps re-conquest.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Me: "Dude, please stop putting words in the mouths of others…"

            "George HW Bush regularly made comparisons between Saddam and Hitler, and compared the Kuwait invasion to the invasion of the Sudentenland. Added to it were the wildly exagerrated claims of Iraqis pillaging nurseries, etc. http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_ar…. "

            That's how you account for all of the hyperbolic claims you make about everyone and everything? It sounds like in context Bush had a point. You're not silly, you're absurd.

            Me: "…but what clearly tipped the scales was having Saddam lined up on Saudi Arabia's border. We have a treaty with them you know."

            EB: "Our treaty is to defend SA in the event of an attack. Saddam did not attack SA, and there is no evidence he intended to. He was evil, not stupid."

            But what clearly tipped the scales was having Saddam lined up on Saudi Arabia's border. IIRC they actually crossed they borders. before the decision was made to even deploy defensive troops. Then something like many weeks were given to Saddam to back off and retreat. You're insane.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "What wars did Jesus encourage?"

        None that we know of.

        "What kind of war plane would he have flown if he was around during the Gulf War?"

        What makes you think this is a rational question?

        • EarlyBird

          Don't play dumb.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Don't play dumb."

            There's no need for me to do that when you've got all of those bases covered. Make your point explicitly and stop the games.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "Many so-called conservative "Christians," at least on this site, are actually just reactionary, retrograde, nationalist war mongers, so whipped up into an End Times frenzy, so certain that anyone we dislike or fear is the Devil, that they are willing to go to war everywhere."

        The one thing for certain that I know is that you have a very active imagination. Taking your analysis seriously about what motivates people here is just a waste of time.

        • EarlyBird

          How many posts from so-called "Christians" on this site could you and I find, in a matter of minutes, which contain calls to wipe out all Muslims, Palestinians, or even for that matter people to the left of the posters? There are literally calls for violent revolution in the and to kill off all "liberals."

          Dude, don't play around in a jingoistic, reactionary, fascist, racist, xenophobic, hateful, hysterical, paranoid sandbox and get all fussy because you are dirtied by it. I repeat: this is not an academic conservative think tank, and you are not a toughtful intellectual. You're a right wing reactionary.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "How many posts from so-called "Christians" on this site could you and I find, in a matter of minutes, which contain calls to wipe out all Muslims, Palestinians, or even for that matter people to the left of the posters? There are literally calls for violent revolution in the and to kill off all "liberals.""

            Given how many times you falsely paraphrased me in the same conversation thread about this very topic, your views are worthless.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "The US is drunk on militarism."

        Nice throwaway meaningless comment. Don't you mean that conservative Christians are drunk on "militarism" because they want to bring on the end times? Isn't that your full accusation? Meanwhile you leftists are trying to steer everyone back to the reality of our need to create heaven on earth through communism? Excuse me. It's not communism any more. It's "socialism." Right.

        "Sadly, it seems war making is the only thing we're really good at any more."

        You see, what you haven't noticed is that war was brought to us. Some of us want the wars to end more quickly and decisively while leftists want to sound "patriotic" by supporting war for a few minutes…until we're committed and then they want to pull the plug after the blood has flowed and blame it all on conservatives and or Christians, but usually the Jews get most of the blame at some point.

        The point is that when we is unavoidable, there are difficult decisions that need to be made. Decisions based on rational real world facts and needs. Leftists deny most of those realities and won't even have those conversations. You think and talk like a leftist. You can't even discern the differences between what I say and the position of Charles Manson on violence. What does that say about your discernment? Look at the accusations you make. You're not one to be taken seriously. You waste a lot of your own time to be perfectly honest with you. You do help us by showing how weak some of the popular arguments are, so thanks for that.

        Don't let any facts interfere with any of your statements at all. Just speak from your leftist heart and get all of those hurt emotions out for us to read.

        • EarlyBird

          "Don't you mean that conservative Christians are drunk on "militarism" because they want to bring on the end times?"

          Yes. Fundamentalist Christians to be precise, and other extremist right wingers for whom war is a religion, the answer to all foreign problems. And throw in right wing Jews and Israelis who use you as simple tools.

          You silly little man. Your type blamed losing Vietnam on the "left." It blames the disaster of the Iraq War on "the left." It blames Afghanistan on "the left." If only "the left" had let us "take the gloves off" (and that meant to literally nuke Hanoi in Vietnam) we could have "won." If only we could have carpet bombed Baghdad we would have "won."

          What an embarassment to conservatism and the United States you are.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "What an embarassment to conservatism and the United States you are."

            The fantasies in your mind are what embarrasses anyone who reads them. You embarrass humanity showing how deluded people can get.

  • Mo_

    Leftism in general is sweeping across the church. I was blind and didn't realize the extent of it until 2008, when I saw long-time, committed, church going, bible reading Christians actually voting for Barack Obama.

    The thing is, Leftist ideas/views are incompatible with biblical ones. Most of the time they are the complete opposite. Therefore, I wonder how many of these "Christians" who are spouting off these views actually are Christians in the biblical sense of the word. (Which is the only definition that matters.)

    The really horrifying thing is that because of the whole "tolerance" thing that has brainwashed our culture, no one can question these people for fear of being called intolerant. Within Christian circles it's even worse, because then you're accused of being judgmental.

    It's absolutely maddening! The bible commands Christians to speak up and correct each other when we are going in a wrong direction. Somehow, those verses are ignored. Convenient.

    • Asher

      This is the apostasy of the churches…and yes God will weed them out for their falsehoods!

    • EarlyBird

      The concern with the rise of the Christian Right in the '80s was not just that it would corrupt our politics, but that politics would corrupt our Church.

      Many "liberal" Christians are figuring out that supporting Endless War, obsessing over tax rates, illegal immigration, gun rights, keeping America white, and the national budget is not what the focus of a Christian should be. Politics should be informed by faith, not be turned into a religion.

      • Mo_

        LOL! Sorry for the netspeak, but wow! What a load of nonsense. Let's unpack this.

        For one thing, politics is not an entity in and of itself. Politics is simply the vehicle by which societies deal with the moral issues of the day. And every issue is a moral one. Christians – real ones – should know this better than the average person without a biblical worldview. As demonstrated by the examples in this article, they don't. Now, to your points such as they are:

        Endless War (love the caps, by the way!) – Christians, or people in general, support endless war? What does "endless war" even mean?

        obsessing over tax rates – Again, not sure what you mean. But of course it's right to speak out about things like the ever-escalating tax rates, especially for "the rich".

        illegal immigration – It is morally wrong to enter our country illegally. Therefore, we must speak out and do what we can to enact policies to stop the criminals who do it and who continue to break the law by abusing the system once they're here.

        gun rights – The first right we have as human beings is the right to be alive. Therefore, the right to defend yourself is not only protected by our Constitutional rights, but it's bibically correct as well.

        keeping America white – America is not all white, nor is anyone advocating to make it so. Raaaaaaaaaaaaaacist!

        national budget – Bankrupting our country by out of control spending is indeed a moral issue. Therefore, we must speak out and do what we can to correct it.

        • EarlyBird

          The job is to be in the world but not of the world. To leave to Caesar what is Caesar's and leave to God what is God's.

          Do you think Jesus would be demanding war on Iran and engaging in the hateful jingoism displayed constantly on this site? Would he be ministering to poor illegal immigrants or demanding the "beaners" be thrown back over the border?

          Don't pretend you don't get my point.

          • Mo_

            I love how you don't address one single point I offered. Not one. Just more silly accusations with zero evidence to back them up.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "I love how you don't address one single point I offered"

            He thinks his paraphrased rants are more valuable.

            "Just more silly accusations with zero evidence to back them up."

            He's got an active imagination too.

          • Mo_

            It's so aggravating! It's like people are incapable of having a logical conversation, staying on topic, providing evidence for whatever accusations they are throwing out, etc.

            I don't know why I bother. I guess I'm just hard headed. I always think, 'People are reasonable creatures. If I can just say things clearly enough…'

            Maybe I am the fool.

          • EarlyBird

            Mo,

            A "real" Christian (hey, as long as you're making the distinction) would have understood my post above.

            Politics and policy have moral dimensions, and everyone should ensure their morality is informing their politics, but evangelical Christianity has been so wrapped up in and taken over by Republican politics as to be indecipherable from theology.

            It has literally become "immoral" in some circles to vote Democratic. And don't dodge my questions. I'll ask you again:

            Do you think Jesus would be demanding war on Iran and engaging in the hateful jingoism displayed constantly on this site? Would he be ministering to poor illegal immigrants or demanding the "beaners" be thrown back over the border?

            These are exactly the things that so-called good God and Country "Christians" are talking about on this site.

          • Mo_

            "A "real" Christian (hey, as long as you're making the distinction) would have understood my post above."

            I'm not making the distinction. God and the Bible define what a Christian is, not me.

            Your continued snotty tone show me you have zero interest in productive, thoughtful dialogue. I have wasted enough time trying with you.

          • EarlyBird

            "Your continued snotty tone show me you have zero interest in productive, thoughtful dialogue. I have wasted enough time trying with you."

            Hah! Meaning you are incapable of actually engaging in the logical argument you state you want, or even engage what I said about the rhetoric of the so-called Christians on this site.

            Hey, I'll at least give you credit for not trying to justify it!

            Run away, coward.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Hah! Meaning you are incapable of actually engaging in the logical argument you state you want, "

            That would be accurate if you were stating that while looking in to a mirror.

            "Run away, coward."

            Pearls before swine. You don't even realize the wasted patience people spend on you. OTOH, this forum is read by others so in the end the time is not really wasted. It just feels that way when reading your mindless rhetoric.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "These are exactly the things that so-called good God and Country "Christians" are talking about on this site."

            You're points dissipate in to nothing when you leave out left-leaning lies. You're dependent on lies to make your points. Why is that?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Do you think Jesus would be demanding war on Iran and engaging in the hateful jingoism displayed constantly on this site?"

            If Jesus was merely human and he was convinced about Iran's intentions with nuclear weapons, he would take the position that something should be done, led by the political leadership. You're right if you're saying Christians are not to take action directly unless directed by "Caesar."

            I think you're saying something too simple; that Christians need to "butt out" because of the call for separation of church and state as expressed by the "render unto Caesar…" statement. I think you're wrong. Christ also called for a sword of discernment between right and wrong. He called for teaching relevant truths. If military action can bring peace, how is it loving to let tyrants dominate the world? And when these tyrants have literally threatened millions with death due to non-belief (their false beliefs by the way, if that matters to you), then I think he would be in favor of the government (Caesar) taking action. He would NOT advise Christians to simply "follow their base instincts" and take up action in an ad hoc vigilante manner. It's about due process and justice. But neither would he rebuke Christians who discussed the threats and supported that government's just actions.

          • EarlyBird

            Nope. The question was not whether or not Jesus would want to "do something" and leave it to the political leadership. It wasn't a question about self defense or Just War theory. It was:

            "Do you think Jesus would be demanding war on Iran and engaging in the hateful jingoism displayed constantly on this site?"

            You read this garbage day in and day out, on this site. It indulges in the most base, dehumanizing rhetoric. It is a website designed to whip up anti-Muslim (not just anti-terrorist) fear to the most hysterical levels and attempts to incite us to take pre-emptive war against Iran (real people, you know).

            And this aggressive, warlike, jingoistic rhetoric sadly represents so many fundamentalist "Christians" in America.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Do you think Jesus would be demanding war on Iran and engaging in the hateful jingoism displayed constantly on this site?"

            That question is wrapped in a statement and I'm not as dim as you are. I don't need to fall in to your silly rhetorical "traps." I already answered the serious part of your question without taking your bait. Too bad for you, huh?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "You read this garbage day in and day out, on this site. It indulges in the most base, dehumanizing rhetoric. It is a website designed to whip up anti-Muslim (not just anti-terrorist) fear to the most hysterical levels and attempts to incite us to take pre-emptive war against Iran (real people, you know). And this aggressive, warlike, jingoistic rhetoric sadly represents so many fundamentalist "Christians" in America."

            Yada yada, endless rant. So publish your own blog and get people to read it. I guess you're the only "real Christian" in existence. Maybe you're Christ himself, eh? Only you "get it."

            By the way, nobody advocates "war against people." The USA and the West spends almost all of its research on precision weapons. Precision. Virtually all of our effort is spent bringing freedom with minimum bloodshed when others have already started to shed the blood of innocent victims. You're just too far gone to even begin to look past your silly out-of-context statements. I'm not sure you ever made any factual statement in context. Every comment you make is intended to deceive.

            If all we cared about was power, we'd have taken over the world in 1945. If you can't digest that fact, you probably can't follow any of the supporting points either.

      • SCREW SOCIALISM

        Endless War?

        That's what Islamofascists have planned.

        That's why they are killing people all over the world.

        Places like Nigeria, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, US, Eurabia, Israel….

        • Mo_

          Exactly right.

          Isn't it amazing how people like this EarlyBird love to complain about us and "endless war", but never a word about the jihadists who actually say they want it and prove it by their actions? Remarkable!

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Coo coo bird is a "new evangelical."

          • Mo_

            That explains it.

            I wish these folks were not even claiming the term "Christian" or "evangelical"! All it does is confuse the issue and confuse others.

            For one thing, I'd bet many of them are not even Christians in the biblical sense of the word. Many of them reject the core teachings of the bible and Christ, so how can they be? Ridiculous! All they do is confuse non-Christians, who assume these folks must know what they are talking about, and who then believe them and believe that the bible supports all the nonsense they spew forth.

            It drives me nuts. Find another religion or make up some other title for yourself, but don't claim to be following what the bible teaches and what Christ taught, when many of your views are the *exact opposite* of what Christ and the bible teach!

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "For one thing, I'd bet many of them are not even Christians in the biblical sense of the word. Many of them reject the core teachings of the bible and Christ, so how can they be? Ridiculous! All they do is confuse non-Christians, who assume these folks must know what they are talking about, and who then believe them and believe that the bible supports all the nonsense they spew forth."

            Answering these questions takes all the time of many ministries. In short, leftists influenced some who saw themselves as Christians. Most radical post-Christian ideas formed in the wake of the Darwin book success. It became acceptable to openly attack the Bible as being anything from unreliable to fraudulent. These people made huge inroads in to the thinking of many tepid Christians who didn't have strong education on the related subjects. And there have always been lies about what Christianity actually stood for.

            But the main point is that post-Christian "Christians" think they must reinvent all of the beliefs to reconcile Darwinism and the bundle of leftist ideas that goes with it. That means any person is subject to popular ideas. That leaves them vulnerable to leftist cultural hegemony in the West. That's a rough framework to figure out what makes any given "Christian free thinker" tick these days.

            Most of the lunatics today are really hippies who were convinced that Jesus too was basically a hippy from those times. He'd be smoking pot and ironically they accept what Marx had to say about Jesus over what the Bible actually says. They read the Bible with a Marxist lens, though many or even most don't realize where their modern ideas come from. These view these ideas as "common sense truth" and beyond questioning. In other words, leftist dogmas corrupt people who have no clue.

          • Mo_

            All excellent points.

            This points to the failure of Christian churches to educate their people – on the bible itself, as well as how a biblical worldview informs every issue.

            The most frustrating part for me is that this problem is so deep, so entrenched, that I don't even know how/where we could begin to correct and reverse it!

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "The most frustrating part for me is that this problem is so deep, so entrenched, that I don't even know how/where we could begin to correct and reverse it!"

            I hear you completely. Just remember that God is ultimately only concerned about any one person's status at the moment of their death. The sense we get is the aggregate effect of that person's life. So the world will always look a lot worse to us than where it's really heading. Think of Paul of Tarsus and how he was redeemed. Then think of the thief on the cross. We won't know too many of those stories but I'm sure there are lots that nobody here could begin to count.

            And then when people attack, we just remember what they have to get through before they can realize we're just trying to help them.

            But yeah, I know what you feel. I feel it too some times.

          • Mo_

            "The sense we get is the aggregate effect of that person's life. So the world will always look a lot worse to us than where it's really heading."

            What a great perspective, and one that I had not thought of before. Thank you!

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "The really horrifying thing is that because of the whole "tolerance" thing that has brainwashed our culture, no one can question these people for fear of being called intolerant. Within Christian circles it's even worse, because then you're accused of being judgmental. "

      Political Correctness comes from the communist canon, not the Hebrew texts that the Christian Bible is derived from.

      • Mo_

        I know! But many Christians (and others) are so ignorant that they have no clue!

  • Asher

    The False church is the Lukewarm church…There are those Christians who are loyal to Israel in thought, word, and deed, but not all Christians who call upon the Lord will be accepted, he knows their heart, and if they are faithful to him and to Israel.

    • EarlyBird

      Just so I'm clear: one of the final judgements God will have for us is how aggressively supportive of the policies of the state of Israel? Perhaps Likudniks will have a better chance at heaven than Labor party members?

      • SCREW SOCIALISM

        EarlyTurd, The FAKE socialist "christians", like the FAKE "anti-war" cult, support Islamofascists because they see Islamofascists as allies in their war against Western civilization.

        • EarlyBird

          Screw Up, one can be against the policies of the state of Israel and not be for Islamists. One can be against continuing to squeeze the Palestinians into smaller and smaller bits of land, and be for Israel to prosper in peace.

          The world is not as binary and simplistic as you are.

  • findalis

    This confirms what I have been saying for years. Jews cannot trust Christians for they will turn on you at the drop of a hat.

    In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Christian community decided that once they destroy Israel they will kill every Jew in America. Why not? Pogroms are a CHRISTIAN sport.

    • Mo_

      What idiocy and what ugly lies.

      • Joe

        Actually, historically speaking, the core of the accusation is correct. Unfortunately, from Constantinian (Roman Catholic) Christianity and early "church fathers" (from c. 3rd century forward as the Catholic church rejected Paul's warning in Romans 9-11…), to the Dark Ages/Crusades (starting in 1096AD and continuing for several more centuries), to the "Inquisitions" of the Catholic Church (12th through 16th centuries, with Jews in Spain being robbed, expelled from the country, or forced to convert in the same year Columbus was claiming the Americas for Spain (1492); to Russian Pogroms (driven largely by Russian Orthodox "christians" in the end of the 19th and early 20th centuries), and most recently to the Nazi's who relied on Martin Luther's (yes, the "father of the Reformation" and founder of the German Lutheran churches) anti-Semitic theological statements, Darwinian rationalism, and pagan mythologies) — literally tens of millions of Jews have been murdered, raped, robbed, or forced to convert to "Christianity" over the last two millennia BY those who claimed to be Christians – followers of Jesus of Nazareth…

        It's no wonder that the majority of Jewish people still reject Yeshua (Jesus) – the Jewish Messiah. In their experience (and believe me, they REMEMBER history, because failure to do so has led to their repeated demise), the majority testimony of Jesus' ALLEGED followers has been one of overt persecution and pain…

        I certainly don't agree with the claim by "findalis" of all Jews in America being killed, but I certainly DO empathize and understand the pain and history that would drive such an accusation. [If you are a follower of Jesus, and want to understand the history of these issues, read: "Our Hands are Stained with Blood" by Michael Brown.] May the testimony of those who are the TRUE disciples of Jesus become one where the Root of our faith (i.e., ancient biblical Judaism – the faith of Abraham the Jew, Moses the Jew, David the Jew, Isaiah the Jew — AND the faith of Jesus the Jew, John the Baptist the Jew, SImon Peter the Jew, Matthew the Jew, Saul/Paul the Jew, John the Jew, and… well you get the picture — they were ALL Jews, not "Christians" – ever think of that?) is honored, and where the calling of Gentile believers in Jesus is to incite non-believing Jews to "jealousy" because of our relationship with Yeshua/Jesus (see Romans 11:11) becomes a reality in the majority…

        • Mo_

          Even if this is all 100% accurate, nowhere does the Bible teach Christians to do any of this.

          The opposite is true of Islam, which teaches unbelievers must convert, submit or die. And with a special hatred toward Jews and Christians which is written all over the Koran.

      • Joe

        Actually, historically speaking, the core of the accusation is correct. Unfortunately, from Constantinian (Roman Catholic) Christianity and early "church fathers" (from c. 3rd century forward as the Catholic church rejected Paul's warning in Romans 9-11…), to the Dark Ages/Crusades (starting in 1096AD and continuing for several more centuries), to the "Inquisitions" of the Catholic Church (12th through 16th centuries, with Jews in Spain being robbed, expelled from the country, or forced to convert in the same year Columbus was claiming the Americas for Spain (1492); to Russian Pogroms (driven largely by Russian Orthodox "christians" in the end of the 19th and early 20th centuries), and most recently to the Nazi's who relied on Martin Luther's (yes, the "father of the Reformation" and founder of the German Lutheran churches) anti-Semitic theological statements, Darwinian rationalism, and pagan mythologies) — literally tens of millions of Jews have been murdered, raped, robbed, or forced to convert to "Christianity" over the last two millennia BY those who claimed to be Christians – followers of Jesus of Nazareth…

        It's no wonder that the majority of Jewish people still reject Yeshua (Jesus) – the Jewish Messiah. In their experience (and believe me, they REMEMBER history, because failure to do so has led to their repeated demise), the majority testimony of Jesus' ALLEGED followers has been one of overt persecution and pain…

        I certainly don't agree with the claim by "findalis" of all Jews in America being killed, but I certainly DO empathize and understand the pain and history that would drive such an accusation. [If you are a follower of Jesus, and want to understand the history of these issues, read: "Our Hands are Stained with Blood" by Michael Brown.]

        May the testimony of those who are the TRUE disciples of Jesus become one where the Root of our faith (i.e., ancient biblical Judaism – the faith of Abraham the Jew, Moses the Jew, David the Jew, Isaiah the Jew — AND the faith of Jesus the Jew, John the Baptist the Jew, SImon Peter the Jew, Matthew the Jew, Saul/Paul the Jew, John the Jew, and… well you get the picture — they were ALL Jews, not "Christians" – ever think of that?) is honored, and where the calling of Gentile believers in Jesus is to incite non-believing Jews to "jealousy" because of our relationship with Yeshua/Jesus (see Romans 11:11) becomes a reality in the majority…

  • Ennis

    just wondering does Rev Wright count as an evangelical?

    • cjk

      From everything I've seen and heard, Imam Wright is a wolf in wolf's clothing.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        That's funny. It's not much of a sheep costume if that's what he thinks. He's as much of a Christian as Mo was.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "just wondering does Rev Wright count as an evangelical?"

      He's a leftist evangelical. In other words; no.

  • stephengolay

    SENT THE FOLLOWING TO THE LEADERSHIP OF WILLOW CREEK COMMUNITY CHURCH>

    PLEASE ROUTE TO SENIOR PASTOR, FIRST-ORDER LEADERSHIP, AND WHAT-NOT:

    Your accumulating, Hydra-headed distaste, disgust, and pogrom-ic repulsion for the State of Israel (and the Jewish people with their covenanted privileges) I find abhorrent, disheartening, and frightening. [And, sweet God Jesus, do not parade before me your stable of kapo, Joshua betraying Jews.] See link below.

    I've seen this coming. Not only at Willow Creek but across the elite of evangelicalism. Have one question to ask: When will the leadership at Willow Creek man the pulpits, bottom the feed the heresies of the early Church, and announce the rehabilitation of Marcion? That is were you are heading, sirs. You are so taken with the here and now – that is, the eternal horizontal flatness of the Left – you have forgotten – and deep six'd – the Salvation History of our Lord.

    Shame on you. Daily I pray to the Ancient One of Israel, plead on knee for the intercession of the Theotokos, of all the saints and martyrs for your reconversion. I fear the sword of Archangel Michael – do not you? Archangel Michael is the great sentinel over Israel, the first elected Abode of God.

    It's so sad.

    Stephen Golay
    (Jamestown, CA)
    http://frontpagemag.com/2013/jim-fletcher/rise-of

  • Anglophilic

    Just tell those "christian libs" "progressives" that every person listed as an apostle was an ISRAELI jew! And that they should be ashamed of themselves for letting demonic ideas into their thoughts. How can they take the side of ISLAMICISTS.?

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "Just tell those "christian libs" "progressives" that every person listed as an apostle was an ISRAELI jew!"

      That's the bottom line argument I'm making. For them to be so clueless begs the question if they know anything that's true about the Bible.

      "And that they should be ashamed of themselves for letting demonic ideas into their thoughts. How can they take the side of ISLAMICISTS.?"

      Pure ignorance from indoctrination of leftist lies in place of fact-based education.

  • mkkk

    What garbage! You should be ashamed of yourself

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      mkkk, You should be ashamed of yourself and atone for your sins.

    • Mo_

      No one should be ashamed for saying the truth.

  • EarlyBird

    A genuine Christian condemns evil whomever commits it. There is a lot of evil committed by both sides of the conflict. Christians feel compassion for innocent victims. There are innocent victims on both sides.

    It is no more Christian to support Israel's continuing to push Palestinians into smaller and smaller pieces of territory, or finally push them entirely out, the Final Solution supported by so many fanatics on this board, than it is to applaud Hamas' firing of rockets into Israel towns.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "A genuine Christian condemns evil whomever commits it. There is a lot of evil committed by both sides of the conflict. Christians feel compassion for innocent victims. There are innocent victims on both sides."

      That's a fine start. Pray for the innocent victims on both sides. Here we're trying to work on solving root problems related to ideology of the leaders. That's where the distinctions are.

      "It is no more Christian to support Israel's continuing to push Palestinians into smaller and smaller pieces of territory"

      Israel is winning a defensive war on the ground and then losing it politically due to the to the lies propagated by leftists, Islamic supremacists…and you. The fault lies entirely with the leadership of those who attack Israel and who encourage irrational Islamic supremacism (somewhat redundant, but there are lots of ignorant people who might need to hear that).

      "…or finally push them entirely out"

      What's wrong with that? They are the sole legitimate sovereign. That's what the fight is over, law and order vs. chaos and totalitarian sharia (also redundant for the same reason as above).

      "..the Final Solution supported by so many fanatics on this board, than it is to applaud Hamas' firing of rockets into Israel towns."

      Oh please. Use references to Nazism to show your complete indoctrination from lying liars. If you can't discern the difference between those firing the rockets and those being fired at, you're extremely simple-minded or worse. It only gets worse from there, so I'm really giving you the benefit of the doubt.

      The fight is over legitimate sovereignty vs. a totalitarian religion that by the way has been very effective at propagating lies. You quote many of them.

      It's very convenient to be able to say they're both at fault because then you can justify doing near to nothing about it and still call yourself a "good person." No need to take sides, right?

      • EarlyBird

        "…Here we're trying to work on solving root problems related to ideology of the leaders. That's where the distinctions are."

        Yeah, keep pretending this site is some sober, thoughtful think tank. This is where goons like you come to get hard-ons over fantasies about slaughtering Muslims, and Americans to the left of you.

        This site is evidence of the hard right's desire to make Israel the undisputed regional hegemon, by attempting to whip up anti-Iranian and anti-Islamist hysteria as an excuse to "finish the job," both against the Iranians and the Palestinians, all via the US military.

        Sorry if the Final Solution is a bit much for you, but do you really believe that to "finally push them out entirely" would be bloodless? How about having the courage of your convictions, Rambo?

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "Yeah, keep pretending this site is some sober, thoughtful think tank. This is where goons like you come to get hard-ons over fantasies about slaughtering Muslims, and Americans to the left of you."

          Well if you can't actually offer any examples to support your over-the-top statements, what does that make you? In virtually every attempt you make to attack someone you only reveal ugly things about your own character.

          "This site is evidence of the hard right's desire to make Israel the undisputed regional hegemon, by attempting to whip up anti-Iranian and anti-Islamist hysteria as an excuse to "finish the job," both against the Iranians and the Palestinians, all via the US military."

          Yes, we've heard these theories. I'm a Jew, or paid by the Jews or blackmailed by the Jews. Got any evidence of that? So none of this would be caused by violence incidental to Islamic supremacism (jihad)?

          "Sorry if the Final Solution is a bit much for you, but do you really believe that to "finally push them out entirely" would be bloodless?"

          When people use that phrase in the context that you did, and when they capitalize the words as you did, it's understood that you're drawing parallels with Hitler's plans against the Jews which by the way, were carried out with unprecedented cruelty and widespread mayhem and death.

          Now you're saying that "Final Solution" is really just a phrase to mean "decisive military victory" because bloodshed in common? That's your position? Or are you one of those lunatics who says that any bloodshed is by definition the moral equivalence of murdering people due to false allegations and false racial theories? Nothing else matters but blood. There is no such thing as judicial violence in your mind.

          "How about having the courage of your convictions, Rambo?"

          ZZZZZzzzzzz… Just call me a Nazi you crazy cloaked leftist. Call me anything you want. Nobody will care and I sure won't. It's already clear to anyone who reads these comments that I'm far too patient with you.

          • EarlyBird

            A modern, elite Israeli Army waging war on millions of unarmed Palestinian civilians in order to push them out of Gaza and the West Bank into some no man's land, it is absolutely "…cruelty and widespread mayhem and death."

            That's what you mean with you Stalinist euphemism, "decisive military victory." You'd deserve more respect for just stating your horrific dreams openly.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "A modern, elite Israeli Army waging war on millions of unarmed Palestinian civilians in order to push them out of Gaza and the West Bank into some no man's land, it is absolutely "…cruelty and widespread mayhem and death." "

            Don't let any facts interrupt your inane narratives. You should be an honorary jihadi. Nobody but nobody advocated or advocates using military weapons or tactics against non-military persons. You're simply an insane liar.

            "You'd deserve more respect for just stating your horrific dreams openly."

            Funny how your vision of my dreams lives in only one place; your head.

    • Mo_

      Nonsense. "Palestinians" (read: MUSLIMS) are commanded by their religion to destroy Jews. And so they do.

      Your vulgar use of the term 'Final Solution' – as though Jews are committing genocide against ANYONE, and as though people here are advocating for it – shows where you allegiance lies.

      It's people like you, who know NOTHING about Islam and who excuse and even defend it who are part of the problem.

      • EarlyBird

        Stop lying, Mo. It is a dispute over land. If anyone is primarily motivated by religion it's the Zionists who believe that Greater Israel is promised to them by God in the Bible. In this mindset, the millions of Palestinians who had been living there for thousands of years were mere squatters.

        There are just as radicalized Jews in Israel as there are radicalized Muslims.

        Yes, the people on this board are indeed proposing a Final Solution against the Palestinians. If you want "vulgar," start reading the vomit coming out of your fellow fanatics' brains on this board.

        • Mo_

          I haven't told any lies here, which is why you haven't demonstrated any that I have told.

          You have nothing of substance to offer, so all you can do is act like a child and yell, "Liar!" as though simply saying the word makes it so.

          Grow up. Go read the Koran. Read some history while you're at it.

          Stop defending the "Palestinians" – MUSLIMS – who would happily slit your throat if they could. They do nothing but murder, and yet fools like you continue to defend them at every turn.

          • EarlyBird

            Mo,

            The Pals were fighting since before '47 for land which they had been pushed off of by European Jews, who did so in the name of God. They weren't against "Jews," they were against "Jews who pushed me off the land our family held for countless generations."

            This was a land dispute well before it had anything to do with the scary "MUSLIMS," you bigoted nitwit. It's been turned into a religious war by religiously fanatical Muslims and Jews like the ones you read here on FPM. The radicalization of Palestinians and most Arabs has only happened in the past 20 years. To deny this is a lie.

            To deny that the radicals on this board and their counterparts in Israel don't want to push out millions of Palestinians by force and thereby commit a crime against humanity, if not "genocide," is a lie.

            Which makes you are a liar.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "The Pals were fighting since before '47 for land which they had been pushed off of by European Jews,"

            Absolutely wrong. Where did you get this nonsense? You are a complete liar or retard. Evidence suggests strongly that you are both.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "The Pals were fighting since before '47 for land which they had been pushed off of by European Jews,"

            Absolutely wrong. Where did you get this nonsense? You are a complete liar. Evidence suggests strongly that you are also a retread.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "They weren't against "Jews," they were against "Jews who pushed me off the land our family held for countless generations.""

            "They" were incited by lies by created by leaders who hated any Jew who did not submit to sharia law.

            Repeating the lies you learned from others doesn't convert those lies in to facts. You're an apologist for Islamic jihad, calling himself Christian. What a sad joke.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "This was a land dispute well before it had anything to do with the scary "MUSLIMS," you bigoted nitwit. It's been turned into a religious war by religiously fanatical Muslims and Jews like the ones you read here on FPM."

            You are such a waste of time. I think it's time to simply point out that you have rarely if ever quoted anything historically accurate that occurred before 1990, and in the modern events your analysis is so twisted as to being useless.

            Therefore in the future you must provide references to support your opinions in order to get any further. Otherwise your'e just an exceptionally verbose troll, or more mentally deficient than anyone can imagine. You're certainly a drinker of the leftist-Islamic Kool Aid on a daily if not hourly basis.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "Stop lying, Mo. It is a dispute over land."

          Land is controlled for security reasons. Ever hear of the "Clinton Parameters?" Go read a bit sir psycho before flinging your silly baseless accusations authored by jihadis and lying leftists.

          • EarlyBird

            Who controlled the land before European Jews came to Palestine. Please remind us. Oh, it was "empty." Got it.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Who controlled the land before European Jews came to Palestine. Please remind us. Oh, it was "empty." Got it."

            The Turks you moron.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Who controlled the land before European Jews came to Palestine. Please remind us. Oh, it was "empty." Got it."

            It was the Islamic empire of the Turks. What's your point? You thought the locals had a sovereign government? LOL!

            Obviously you can't even find out what the Clinton Parameters were (and are). You can't even distinguish between private property and sovereignty. You're useless to the conversation except to serve the interests of liars and phony victims.

            You deserve nothing but contempt because of all the wasted time people spend trying to reason with you while you apply leftist rhetorical tactics and philosophies as you call yourself a conservative. And then you go around calling everyone else a liar.

            Did it ever occur to you that you might be the problem? Of course not. Add acute narcissism to the list.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "If anyone is primarily motivated by religion it's the Zionists who believe that Greater Israel is promised to them by God in the Bible. "

          OK. If we reset all of our knowledge about the facts we can play along. Why don't you explain this and remember before you're done, you're a complete liar if you don't discuss the relevant history of Islamic colonialism in Israel and it's territories.

          "In this mindset, the millions of Palestinians who had been living there for thousands of years were mere squatters."

          You have zero reason to make this claim already. How were they treated like squatters? You make no sense. They did not develop any government. They went in, killed those living there, declared a victor for allah and then ignored any need to maintain or develop what existed (never mind actually establishing sovereignty). In fact, without jihad every Muslim who had lived there would be a citizen just like the millions of Muslim Israeli citizens. So please mr. honesty, mr. gets-the-facts-straight-for-right-wing-haters, please provide any references to back up your claims. Can you even distinguish between property rights and sovereignty? All of the "stolen land" claims are based on conflation of property rights and sovereignty. You leftist tools just assume they meant that individuals had their land stolen.

          Don't you realize how Israel actually works? No need for that in your mind. You've got your point of view and you're certain it feels right.

          You're left.

          • EarlyBird

            I don't deny that Israelites (Jews) inhabitated what is the modern state of Israel and surrounds, that the kingdom of Israel was destroyed over many years by MANY forces – including maurading Arab Islamists – leading to the great Diaspora.

            Still, many Jews and Arabs co-existed on this land up until the Zionist movement.

            Millennia later, European Jews (who were by then as much "Israelites" as I am a Celtic warrior), came in around the late 1800s and started taking back "their" land by theft and force from Arabs, which by then actually lived on and had lived on for generations. This was not just coming "back" to empty land and living next to Arab nomads: this was forcible appropriation of the best fields, orchards, water access by a savvy and radical Zionist movement.

            After WWII and the Holocaust, and with the alliance of Britain which wanted to continue to control "its" colony by proxy, the formal state of Israel was born and recognized.

            Now those are the Facts, dude. Let us here your theory about sovreignity vs. property rights. It should be worth a giggle.

          • EarlyBird

            Having said all this, Israel exists, and it's a great country, the best thing by far about the Middle East. I don't have any problem with their self defense policies, and in fact consider them an exemplar of restraint.

            The irony is that the religious, so-called pro-Israel "patriots" are attempting to push Israel to commit a most uncivilized and unGodly act, which is assault and remove Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank (i.e., massacre and/or remove them, to where I don't know). This would not be an act of self-defense, but a crime against humanity.

            Not that savages like you would care.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Having said all this, Israel exists, and it's a great country, the best thing by far about the Middle East. I don't have any problem with their self defense policies, and in fact consider them an exemplar of restraint."

            How could that be? They're far more aggressive today than ever before. Oh yes, you don't deal in facts. It's just a matter of time before you find "evidence" to say that Jews are already torturing and killing poor unarmed Palestinian infants while still in the wombs of the helpless unarmed mothers, after they gas all the fathers and rape all of the children. You might as well go all out of you're going to be a prolific pro-jihad liar.

            "Not that savages like you would care."

            You're having a conversation with yourself as usual because you're not actually reacting to what I write. In your imagination you control everything and that's the only "reality" you can handle I guess.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Millennia later, European Jews (who were by then as much "Israelites" as I am a Celtic warrior), came in around the late 1800s and started taking back "their" land by theft and force from Arabs,"

            You see, your very first "victim" claim is a lie. Show your evidence you liar. They were not even armed until after many died in many Islamic mini-jihad waves, incited by liars like you. Evidence is never required in Islam when accusations are made against non-Muslims.

            You don't know enough to assert any opinions on the matters we discuss. You're dangerous to Western civilization.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "There are just as radicalized Jews in Israel as there are radicalized Muslims."

          There are criminals in all nations, but that doesn't begin to explain jihad. Nice try. Violent anarchist Jews are prosecuted. Violent Jihadi Muslims are lionized and have streets and parks named after them, and fund raisers go to pay their families after death in order to encourage more violence and murder in the name of the god of cheese.

          Sure, that's the same as some angry Jewish preacher taking a shotgun to someone just before he gets arrested and condemned by the judicial system and the public.

          You're ability to discern distinctions is about zero.

          • EarlyBird

            "There are criminals in all nations, but that doesn't begin to explain jihad."

            No, it doesn't. But nice dodge. The subject here is radical, bloodthirsty Zionism promoted by you and animals on this board, not radical, bloodthirsty Islam. Let's recap, shall we killer?:

            - You propose the Final Solution whereby Israel commits a crime against humanity by forcibly removing millions of Palestinians from Gaza and the WB in the name of God.

            - You wish to drag the US into a war on behalf of Israel whereby we annihilate Iran once and for all. You your self admitted this much in an earlier discussion.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "No, it doesn't. But nice dodge. The subject here is radical, bloodthirsty Zionism promoted by you and animals on this board, not radical, bloodthirsty Islam. Let's recap, shall we killer?"

            That's precisely the point. Your "radical, bloodthirsty Zionism" DOES NOT EXIST. Can you distinguish between real-life jihad murder on completely innocent people with what exists only in your silly imagination when you read conservative comments? There is no evidence that you can.

            "Let's recap, shall we killer?:"

            You? Recap something factual and relevant? No chance.

            "You propose the Final Solution whereby Israel commits a crime against humanity by forcibly removing millions of Palestinians from Gaza and the WB in the name of God. "

            And of course you paraphrase. Show the quotes.

            "You wish to drag the US into a war on behalf of Israel whereby we annihilate Iran once and for all. You your self admitted this much in an earlier discussion."

            I guess you're destined to be forever wrong.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "Yes, the people on this board are indeed proposing a Final Solution against the Palestinians. If you want "vulgar," start reading the vomit coming out of your fellow fanatics' brains on this board."

          Given how consistently you invert facts and analysis, I suppose we should be happy reading this claim from you. The Sun is blue too, right? Just because you said so.

          • EarlyBird

            Shouldn't you be rooting for "decisive military victory" against the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza? I mean, they're all just Muslims anyway, not humans.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Shouldn't you be rooting for "decisive military victory" against the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza?"

            You only quote one phrase so let me complete the quote. I advocate a decisive military victory against the forces rebelling in the West Bank and Gaza, and everywhere else jihad is being waged to terrorize innocents.

            You'll take that quote and convert it to my advocacy for a "Final Solution."

            "I mean, they're all just Muslims anyway, not humans."

            I'll quote you from now on. I personally have always said that it's about indoctrination and culture. Anyone can be saved. You're just a liar arguing with the wrong person. You can't give in and admit you're wrong so you throw accusations at me that you think might stick based on the leftist dogmas about conservatives.

            What does that make you? Just another persistent leftist liar.

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      Coptic Christians are murdered in Egypt AND the US by Islamofascists.

      "Muslim in New Jersey, USA, targeted, murdered two Coptic Egyptian Christian

      Yusuf Ibrahim, a Moslem man, targeted and murdered two Coptic Egyptian
      Christian men who lived and worked in New Jersey. He beheaded them and
      cut off their hands. "
      http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=da4_1361379699

      These FAKE "christians" are wolves in sheeps clothing.

  • ratonis

    Let's look at two extreme and purely hypothetical scenarios. If ISRAELI JEWS controlled all of the middle east, we would probably see: material progress, medical progress, growth of libraries and archaeological research, and protection for the holy sites of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. We would probably see a high quality of cultural achievement in art and music, and transformation of arid land into productive use. I say this based on the evidence of history.

    Should ARAB MUSLIMS/"PALESTINIANS" control all of the middle east, I suspect we would see Muslim-on-Muslim violence and mosque destruction, cultural stagnation, destruction of holy sites of Islam, Judiaism, and Christianity, public stonings and beheadings, and you'd never hear Beethoven or Bach again. Nice. I say this on the basis of the evidence of history. (Please don't bring up the alleged "Golden Age" of Islam and it's "tolerance." Even if one concedes that mythology, the fact is that today's Islamist movement has nothing in common with it.)

    I favor Israel and the Jews for the simple reason that I prefer civilization.

    • EarlyBird

      Ratonis,

      Your post describes exactly why I am pro-Israel. I am not pro-US-being-a-puppet-to-the-Israeli government, and I disagree with many of its policies, but Israel represents civilization and its enemies are the enemies of civilization.

      • Mo_

        Another comment has you defending the "Palestinians" and now here you say you support Israel? Do you have nothing else to do other than to troll this site?

        • EarlyBird

          Where did I "defend" Palestinians beyond their right to live? And, you do know, Mo, that there are a lot more and worse enemies that Israel has to fear than just the Palestinians, right?

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "Your post describes exactly why I am pro-Israel. I am not pro-US-being-a-puppet-to-the-Israeli government,"

        Your definition of "pro Israel" includes spreading reckless lies about it. Now you're completely in leftist Doublespeak territory. Enjoy J Street forums. I'm sure that's the "pro Israel" gang that will welcome you. Don't forget to pray 5 times a day and don't let anyone catch you…not til "Al Quds" is "liberated from the Zionist filth."

        • EarlyBird

          You ought to try reading things that aren't in absolute lock step with you. You might learn something and challenge yourself.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "You ought to try reading things that aren't in absolute lock step with you. You might learn something and challenge yourself."

            I was familiar with the narratives that turned out to be lies before I was able to dig in and find the facts.

            You've never once come up with evidence to support any of your claims. You even contradict wikipedia which is monitored by all of the pro-Palestinian liars to whitewash history as much as possible and still you lie beyond that.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "Let's look at two extreme and purely hypothetical scenarios. If ISRAELI JEWS controlled all of the middle east, we would probably see: material progress, medical progress, growth of libraries and archaeological research, and protection for the holy sites of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. We would probably see a high quality of cultural achievement in art and music, and transformation of arid land into productive use. I say this based on the evidence of history."

      It's not probable. It's beyond question.

  • Jim

    Christians beware! Today the Muslims attack the Jews then Tomorrow they attack us.

    Look at Egypt; Look at Iraq.

    Look to whom Arab oil money is being directed.

  • D. Farrow

    I would say to Mr. Fletcher to check your sources before you lump Margaret Feinberg into this conversation. I e-mailed here office and had a multiple e-mail exchange with her staff to clarify her position vis-a-vis Israel, and I found out that she is NOT and never has been anti-Israel in her viewpoints. If you wish to know the truth, then go to the sources first instead of printing hearsay.

  • Matt Friedman

    The lack of knowledge and the absence of critical thinking on the part of the anti-Israel segment of the community is amazing. While the Israeli government has certainly made mistakes, there are mountains of evidence of not only mistakes on the part of the Palestinians, but horrendously evil policies. The charter of Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel. These are not the policies of peace seekers.

    • avikraft

      anti semetism is the foundation on which xtianity rests . The biggest threat to xtianity is not militant Islam which is slaughtering thousands of xtians all over the world ,. It is the continued existence of genuine Judaism whose rejecting of the false messiah and the anti G-d ,mangod that always has and always the biggest threat to the falsehood of xtianity and to convert one Jew or to support the murder of a Jew has more value to the church then the death of a million xtians at the hands of the islamofascists . When the xtians wake up and find out who their real enemy is ,it will be too late

      • http://www.themadjewess.com/ The Mad Jewess

        You’re lying. Looks like you are the one suffering from anti Christianity.
        These people are LEFTISTS, period.
        It is an ideology that is ANTI Christian like you.

      • http://ResurrectTheRepublic.com/ RTR Truth Media

        IF THIS IS HOW YOU FEEL…….GIVE BACK ALL OF OUR TAX DOLLARS AND STOP PRETENDING YOU ARE OUR FRIENDS AND ALLIES WHILE YOU USE DECEPTION TO SPY STEAL AND ATTACK US…….NO PROBLEM RIGHT?

    • http://ResurrectTheRepublic.com/ RTR Truth Media

      If someone came to my neighborhood……and removed people from their homes…….and took my family and moved them onto a strip of land when we all lived together in peace prior to this…….I would kill every one that threatened them….. As would be my right……UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW……THIS IS LEGAL. The lies that say that to resist ones occupation and subjugation is terrorism ……are said only by those committing acts of terror – Israel. There is no such thing as a RACIALLY SUPERIOR PEOPLE ! That is NOT what The Lord G-d of Abraham promised. He promised the Messiah. And that we would KNOW it was He , because the people would be delivered unto the land. This is exactly what happened when Jesus was born. You lie to American Christians and to the world by sticking with Theodore Hertzl, AN ATHEIST WHO INVENTED THE CHOSEN PEOPLE……by using some cherry picked verses and NOT addressing all of the conditions and details that came with it…such as the fact that the so called Atheist that created it was without G-d….. Right off the bat it nullifies what the man stood for. But continue on to all of the other “secular” or Godless ones… HOW DARE THEY COME IN THE NAME OF GOD WITH MISSILES AND DEATH UNTO A PEOPLE THAT YOU STOLE THEIR PROPERTY, THEIR HOMES, THEIR PLACES OF WORSHIP FROM……!?!? God will judge you again as he did all evil governments

  • avikraft

    Most evangelical don’t really support Israel ,the right way . Many of these evangelical churches like the Southern Baptist convention have a different goal in mind . Then don’t support a n Israel that believes in G-d the traditional Jewish way . They support an Israel that will someday convert to xtianity and they are spending millions of dollars to support deceptive missionary cults. Better that the relationship end and that Jews place their trust in the G-d of Israel who is not a man then G-d forsakes us for converting tothe god of another religion.Wevv will do fine with out xtian support . We will emerge the winners in the war of gog and magog with or with out the false friendship of those who oppressedslandered and murdered our people for 2000 years

    • http://www.themadjewess.com/ The Mad Jewess

      And you know this from visiting these said churches…
      Sure.

      • avikraft

        I knew it from all the hatred lies and slanders that xtians post all over the internet and you tube as well as the millions of Jews who were murdered for 2000 years for not kissing the cross

    • http://www.themadjewess.com/ The Mad Jewess

      The enemy to the Jewish people are BOLSHEVIK “Jews”.
      Period.

      • avikraft

        well I agree with you on that one but they are only one of the enemies . Plenty of people don’t like the message so they want to kill the messenger

    • http://ResurrectTheRepublic.com/ RTR Truth Media

      First of all, it is a requirement of the Christian faith to minister the word of The Lord JESUS Christ . There is NOTHING deceptive…..nor are they “cults” any more than Talmudism and Judaism is a “cult”. To say so is not only offensive, but I look forward to sharing your “thoughts” on the subject to my listeners…… As it is our tax dollars that go to Israel……and no small amount. I am for one, sick and tired of hearing about anti-Semitism, while you people so openly and outwardly COMPLETELY DISCRIMINATE against Christians….. It is not only hypocritical……but as we do not recieve support financially from Israel it is also a SCAM……that’s right…..Christians here believe that your government and your people embrace us and our beliefs…….and more and more as people learn the truth about this……they are not only appalled but angry and disgusted…….add with that the involvement of the Israeli MOSSAD who was caught red handed spying on the United States, and considering the fact that Israel stole our nuclear secrets, attacked one of our ships that they KNEW after an hour of trying to send it to the bottom to bring the US into the 6 day wAr via a false flag and blaming it on Egypt…… Then to make matters far worse two teams of Israelis were arrested on 9/11 ……One filming the first strike and then celebrating…..their behavior so absolutely disturbing that someone called the police right away……in their possession a photo that the photographer held the camera lined up with a lit lighter holding it to the backdrop of the fist struck tower smoldering…… The second team was chased by police when the mural on the truck ( a plane flying into the towers) was misidentified as the first truck…….they fled the truck, and the truck DETONATED ! They were almost on the Geo Wash bridge. They too were arrested and after 3 months sent back to Israel by order of the Bush Administration…… I was born into a home that was 1/2 Christian, and 1/2 Zionist Jewish…… So spare me the anti-SEMITIC crap. Israel is a terrorist state, traitor to its freindship with the US…..AND IF WE HAD LISTENED TO OUR OWN LORD JESUS CHRIST IN JOHN 8 – we would have realized a long time ago, that European Khazars are not the biblical Israel……but mostly converts, frauds,, And exactly who Christ said they were ……..OF Abraham……but NOT ABRAHAMS CHILDREN……or they would have loved Christ, instead they sought to kill Him…..and he even said to them on the Talmud…… YOU MAKE MY FATHERS LAW ILL AND OF NO EFFECT – Shame on you fake Israel……G-d will be your judge ……and I will gladly be his collection agency as soon as the rest of the country realizes who was behind 9/11………. VICTORY BY DECEPTION – the motto of the MOSSAD…….. THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS…… they make G-Ds law ILL AND OF NO EFFECT !

  • Ken Kelso

    Arab and Iranian scientists have invented a time-travel device that can transport an entire country back to the middle ages.
    They’re calling it ‘Islam’.

    • http://ResurrectTheRepublic.com/ RTR Truth Media

      Funny……. At the same time…..they seem to have sent Israel back in their own minds as they are living in the past waiting for a Messiah who has already come, and stolen land that they think is theirs even though the Jews at the time JESUS was born were delivered unto Israel……many REAL JEWS…..never left…….these fraudsters ( in the sense that Euro Jews are mostly converts not genetically related ) do not have the right to steal land……. The covenant was Christ……and they would Know it was he because of the signs……which was that they would be delivered unto Israel……which when JESUS was born they absolutely were which is how many knew He was born……one of the greatest signs……remember? Why did Joseph and Mary go to Bethlehem??? Follow and protect the true Israel……those who are one in Jesus Christ……who also said…..there is no more Greek nor Jew , Man nor woman……all are gathered into one which clearly meant……those who believed in Jesus WERE ISRAEL NOW ! He was the promise…….the LION OF JUDAH !

  • Jeremy Olson

    It sickens me to see so called Christians sending money to Israel…a place that absolutely hates Jesus instead of using that money to spread the gospel in places that are actually hungry for the Word and open to it.