Is Iran Really a ‘Rational’ State Actor?

Recently, there has been an ongoing debate among political analysts in the United States that is centered on the question of whether the Islamic Republic of Iran is a rational actor and whether it has rational-legal authority in the institutions within which it functions.

The argument goes, if credible and powerful incentives were presented to the Iranian regime the Iranians would agree to halt uranium enrichment. Additionally, if the Iranian regime believes that it will be regarded with respect and viewed as a strong geopolitical, economic and strategic actor by regional and international governments it will open talks with the United States, Israel, and other European countries.  In particular, it will have strong diplomatic relations with the United States which will ultimately lead to the inauguration of mutual embassies in Tehran and Washington, DC, as well as the promotion of human rights and democracy in Iran. It is also argued that if Iran is a rational actor, even if it achieves nuclear capability and consequently nuclear weapons, it will still not threaten other countries, according to the rational theory of “deterrence.”

First, “rationality” must be defined. One might define it as the efforts of a government to pursue its own strategic, economic, national, and security interests. However, even according to this definition, it does not mean that the Iranian regime would fix its relationships with many countries including the United States or Israel if more appealing offers were presented to the clerics. The key principle upon which the Islamic Republic of Iran rules is its opposition to Western nations, particularly the United States and Israel and even some powers in the East. The principle slogan of the Iranian Revolution as coined by Ayatollah Khomeini (the founding father of the regime) is “Not the east, not the west.” He adds, “this is the established principle of Islamic nations and countries who, with the help of Allah, will accept Islam as the only ideology leading to salvation – and they will not go back from this principle in the least.”

On the other hand, in this era of globalization, if being a rational government means protecting one’s own economic interest, any state should subscribe to a modern nation-state political system. Khomeini said, “in our domestic and foreign policy, … we have set as our goal the world-wide spread of the influence of Islam … We wish to cause the corrupt roots of Zionism, capitalism and Communism to wither throughout the world. We wish, as does God almighty, to destroy the systems which are based on these three foundations, and to promote the Islamic order of the Prophet.”

The fact is that the Islamic Republic of Iran is centered on the principles that Ayatollah Khomeini established. It derives its power and legitimacy from practicing those principles which require ending any relationship with the United States (also known as “the great Satan” in Iran) and Israel at any cost. If the Iranian regime changed these fundamental organizing principles, it would not be able to define itself as the “Islamic Republic of Iran” which was founded on the principles and values of Ayatollah Khomeini. Additionally, resuming relations with the United States and Israel would mean that the Iranian regime would not be able to maneuver politics the way it has been for the last three decades — by maintaining power by crushing and labeling any internal opposition to the regime as American or Israeli plots. Being against the US and Israel has also helped clerics detract attention away from the economic crisis in the country.

On the other hand, in Iran, the nuclear program has long been a point of consensus across Iran’s political spectrum, both among hardliners and moderates. Being a nuclear power is a matter of survival for the ruling clerics. They didn’t endure four rounds of sanctions and decades of isolation only to surrender their nuclear program. In their perspective, having nuclear capabilities will not only support their regional hegemonic ambitions but will also ensure their hold on power.

The problem is that the Iranian regime is viewed as a modern nation-state that plays by the international rules and standards that have been developed by the West in the last century. It might be time to take a closer look at the clerics’ fundamental principles and the political structure of the regime.

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  • AdinaK

    Do you truly want to know about Iran's "rationality" and all its attendant implications? Look no further than to Professor Louis Rene Beres –… . no doubt the world's expert on this existential subject.

    As such, these are his latest findings –

    What applies to Israel will apply to the US, and by extesion all the west.

    Adina Kutnicki, Israel

    • Mladen Andrijasevic

      The book Israel vs. Iran: The Shadow War by Yaakov Katz and Yoaz Hendel mentions Prof. Rene Beres and his involvement in Project Daniel but it is not clear how Prof. Rene Beres can reconcile nuclear ambiguity and the death of mutually assured destruction (MAD)

      "After two years of meetings, mostly in conference rooms in New York and Washington, the team had completed its report and submitted it o Prime Minister Sharon in 2003. A grand strategy on how Israel should defend itself and prevent its enemies from obtaining nuclear weapons, the report's basic conclusion was that a policy of mutual assured destruction, which had prevailed between the United States and Soviet Union during the Cold War, would never work between Israel and Iran."

      and …

      "Professor Rene Beres, and expert on nuclear policy who chaired Project Daniel (see Chapter 7) says Israel would likely need to alter its policy of ambiguity in the event that Iran obtains a nuclear weapon. Beres stresses that Israel would not necessarily need to open its nuclear facilities to inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency, but it could succeed in bolstering its deterrence by revealing more about the weapons it possesses. "Israel does not need to start disclosing secrets", he said . "it could be enough to lift the ambiguity by indicating the availability and capability of the weapon"

      The question that immediately comes to mind is – what deterrence? If Iran cannot be deterred and MAD does not work (conclusion of Project Daniel), it becomes irrelevant whether a policy of nuclear ambiguity or a policy of nuclear transparency is pursued.

  • SAM000

    Obama finds that the SNAKE can be respectful!

  • Chanameel

    Iran is just as rational as North Korea.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "Iran is just as rational as North Korea."

      It may not be the exact season to mention this but Iran is a lot worse.

      • defcon 4

        North Korea is merely a puppet state of the PRC. If the short little bastard in N. Korea stirs up any trouble for China — he'll be deposed right quick.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "North Korea is merely a puppet state of the PRC. If the short little ******* in N. Korea stirs up any trouble for China — he'll be deposed right quick."

          Under the surface there are many reasons why we need to worry a lot less about NK.

  • Lisa

    Interesting article which comes from aperson who lived, worked, and grew up in that country. We keep relying on policies of those who have never been in the region.
    The West thinks that Iran' s behavious will change will offering more chocloates.

    • EarlyBird


      Sanctions are not "chocolates." People often state plainly that Obama is "appeasing" this Islamist and that, and never bother to explain how, I guess the "proof" being that he hasn't waged a war yet.

      The Iranian economy is very big and diverse, so the sanctions have had uneven affects. While the wealthy are getting richer on the black market, the rial's value has been cut by 2/3rds, oil production dramatically reduced costing the Iranian government $40 billion dollars, and the government has had to cut back on a lot of things that it has always subsidized, like fuel, food and other items.

      The writer is smart. He doesn't suggest that we're going to see a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv the moment they go nuclear, but that they would use it to insulate themselves from "regime change" either internally or externally, and use it to expand its power in the region. As much as I would not want that, I would prefer that to the US getting into another war which would actually bankrupt us.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "I would prefer…"

        Nobody cares what trolls think or "prefer."

        • WilliamJamesWard

          "I would prefer…….kibbles and bits?" ………..Crazy is as crazy does and with the
          antics of Iran and North Korea playing the rest of the World I wonder what anyone
          will have to say if the unthinkable happens considering it is not something that
          should be let to become possible. Something has to give, as long as the game
          goes on the shorter the time is to a possible event that must not be allowed. No
          sane person wants war but only crazy people allow it to happen in the name of
          peaceful negotiations that go nowhere but to the battlefield. ………William

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "No sane person wants war but only crazy people allow it to happen in the name of
            peaceful negotiations that go nowhere but to the battlefield. ………William"

            Leftists just call those who disagree "war mongers" and then close their ears and eyes.

        • Whateverman

          Earlybird posts a thoughtful, coherent and plausible comment and your response is a childish reaction. Your pseudonym seems a play on irony.

          • JacksonPearson

            "Earlybird posts a thoughtful, coherent and plausible comment and your response is a childish reaction. Your pseudonym seems a play on irony."

            Oh yeah, only if you're interested in banana republics.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Oh yeah, only if you're interested in banana republics."

            Sharia-compliant banana republics.

          • JacksonPearson

            Good one…. :o)

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Earlybird posts a thoughtful, coherent and plausible comment and your response is a childish reaction. Your pseudonym seems a play on irony."

            Because you're the other resident of Bizarro World with an Internet connection.

            He's repeating things that have already been clearly refuted. And he occasionally repeats himself in apparently reasonable tones as bait for us to take him seriously. Both of you have earned nothing but contempt and I am sure nobody is surprised that you 2 would support each other. You want respect you must earn it sincerely, not with an occasional attempt to weave your theories coherently as troll bait in a crowd that already dismissed you.

            The local trolls working in tandem. Who'd expect that?

          • WilliamJamesWard

            Oh my!…."apparently reasonable tones" truly the "bait" luring in to the not
            so clear jelly fishes, unsuspecting minnows…………nice…………..William

          • EarlyBird

            Nothing I've said in regard to Iran has been "refuted" on this site.

            And certainly not by you, who actually imagines and roots for an American-Israeli preemptive invasion, occupation and regime change in Iran, ala Iraq. I bet we'd be welcomed by sweets and flowers!

            We all agree we are in a bad situation with Iran. But realists accept it will likely go nuclear because:

            a.) airstrikes alone won't stop their program, even according to retired IDF generals.
            b.) because the aforementioned take-over of Iran would be even far worse than a nuclear-armed Iran, and;
            c.) because other than hysterical right-wingers like yourself, everyone knows that the world can in fact live with a nuclear Iran, that they are no more "crazy" than any other functioning government.

          • Drakken

            If you go all total war on them instead of this half measures Iran would fold in about 3-6 weeks. Take out infastrucure and they will be worring about eating and heating their homes over waging jihd.

          • EarlyBird

            "If you go all total war on them instead of this half measures Iran would fold in about 3-6 weeks. Take out infastrucure and they will be worring about eating and heating their homes over waging jihd."

            Great. So let's just leave another smashed, traumatized and fanatical Muslim populace on Israel's doorstep, a vacuum into which Al Queda or other Satanic cult will get ahold of.

            There's a reason they leave the killing to you, and the planning to the generals.


            Just drop a nuke on tehran and qom and the sunnis will love us.

            Long Live Persia!

            And liberate the oil fields and flood the market with cheap oil.

          • Mary Sue

            On Israel's doorstep?!

            Dude you suck at geography.

          • EarlyBird

            Honey bunch, you're the one who recently stated that Iran is not in the Middle East, hardly the person to be giving lectures on geography.

            Now shoo, little girl!

          • EarlyBird

            Yep, any post which presents facts you object to is a "troll."


            Your socialist and islamofascist "facts" don't carry much weight in the REAL WORLD.

          • Drakken

            Yeah, denial is a really great strategy, what could possibly go wrong listening to you muslims?

      • Madona

        Good point early birld. Do you think sanctions will stop them?

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "Good point early birld. Do you think sanctions will stop them?"


          • WilliamJamesWard

            May I add……………Um…Uma…my gosh…..oooooohhhhhhh!!!!………….William

        • EarlyBird

          If I had to bet, Madona, I imagine Iran is going to go nuclear in the next few years. And what will that mean? Probably not a lot, because as evil as Iran's government is, it is not insane or suicidal.

          Unless we are able to absolutely crush the economy in ways that threatens the regime's grip on power – and basically short of a blockade we won't be able to – we are likely going to have to live with a nuclear Iran, and live through a long Cold War with them.

          We've survived that with China and the Soviets and there are worse things than that, like going into another pre-emptive, massive war in the Middle East in the name of "regime change," which would literally bankrupt America and give the Islamists their ultimate victory by default.

          But don't tell that to the boys on this board for whom war is the only answer, because they are insecure about their gentalia.

          • defcon 4

            Yeah, let's all just stand back while the islamofascists commit more genocides in the Mid-East and Africa.

          • EarlyBird

            Iran has not engaged in "genocide." If you're stating that they want to go nuclear to immediately annihilate a nuclear-armed Israel, you're a paranoid schizophrenic.

      • Mina

        Good one Earlybird

      • Ghostwriter

        Unlike EarlyBirdbrain,I don't see the current Iranian government as rational. They hate Jews and Israel and want to wipe out both. If the world goes to war,than all the better for them. Why don't you join the real world instead of living in a fantasy one.

  • Linda

    The tgird world war is predicted to start in Middle East and it would be a nuclear war. World will go back it 3000 years ago. Who aside from Iran will use that nuclear bomb?

    • Whateverman

      Whoever used it in the past.Hint: it rhymes with Merica…

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "Whoever used it in the past.Hint: it rhymes with Merica…"

        America ends wars. It doesn't start them. And when leftists have their way, we bleed and spend a lot more before it ends.

      • defcon 4

        The US never slaughtered millions of innocent Hindus and Sikhs in Bangladesh and Pakistain. The US never slaughtered millions of Assyrian and Armenian Christians in Turkey/Armenia. The US never slaughtered millions of kufrs/infidels in the Sudan/Darfur. What did all the victims of these slaughters have in common? They weren't muslime and they were living in muslime states. Who killed them? Muslimes.
        ESAD man.

      • Drakken

        Whatsthe matter, you getting nervous?

      • Mary Sue

        Context-free thoughtlessness as usual….

  • Len_Powder

    "Recently, there has been an ongoing debate among political analysts in the United States that is centered on the question of whether the Islamic Republic of Iran is a rational actor and whether it has rational-legal authority in the institutions within which it functions."

    Iran is an autocratic, theocratic despotism governed by religious fanatics and lunatics. If the old Soviet Union registered 6.8 on the mutual annihilation Richter scale, then Iran registers at 9.8 on scale of 10. We realized too late that Hitler, Stalin and Mao were deranged tyrants and yet by comparison to the Iranian clerics (Ayatollah on down) all three were rational and reasonable rulers. What does Satan have to do for us to recognize him? Reveal himself in his true form?

    • EarlyBird

      Stalin and Mao were not "deranged." Only Hitler seems to have suffered mental illness in the last days of the war. This is not to defend these evil men but to simply be accurate.

      "Deranged" means having no discernible rationale for one's actions, being illogical, having suicidal tendencies, being immune to in-put. That simply is not true about Iran's mullahs.

      They seek first to survive, then to challenge the US and Israel for regional hegemony. Nukes would shield them from an invasion by either. They also want that nuclear weapon to provide coverage for themselves as they commit even more mayhem against American and Israeli interests.

      The term "deranged" is used to shut down any discussion about options other than immediate, full scale war against Iran by the US. Because if they were literally all collectively "deranged," then how could we NOT do absolutely everything and anything to stop them from getting the bomb, up to including launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike of our own?

      • Mina


      • Laura


        • EarlyBird

          Why what?

      • Mary Sue

        Stalin and Mao were both ideologically deranged. There's different degrees and states of derangement. If someone thinks that killing millions of innocent citizens is a good thing, they're a form of deranged known clinically as "f***ed in the head".

        • EarlyBird

          Oh. "Ideologically deranged."

          Good ol' Mary "Iran is not in the Middle East" Sue now has imagined a whole new type of mental illness.

    • Ghostwriter

      While EarlyBird stays in the Land of Make-Believe,here on planet Earth,the Mad Mullahs of Iran want to wipe out everyone and everything that isn't Muslim. They're like the Daleks from the "Doctor Who" series and once they get nukes,they'll be closer to doing just that.

  • Whateverman

    Iran has a lot of chutzpah to stand up to the biggest bully in the world and its local lapdog. It could just rollover and bend over like the other client states in the region, but it remembers what happened during the Shah. Especially the close relationship between the brutal secret police Savak and the mossad.
    Iran is an ancient civilization with a great culture.
    israel on the other hand is an bastard nation created artificially by a world body made primarly of countries that wanted their jewish population removed from their midst. This is following a war where another people who had a lot of experience with jews, got a little carried over with the spring cleaning. (Springtime for Hitleeeer and Germanyyyyyy!).
    The population if israel was made up of people who self identified themselves as jews but did not have any common language or culture.
    Iranian jews spoke Iranian, ate Iranian food and listened to Iranian music.
    Italian jews spoke Italian, ate Italian food and listened to Italian music.
    Same for the Yemenite, Ethiopian, Turkish, North African jews. They had nothing in common beside their religion. But one can say the same about any other religion. So they created a nation of a whole cloth and created a being called the israeli. These people had to come all the way to israel to learn hebrew.
    Many of these people never wanted to leave the places where they lived for thousands of years, but israel`;s treatment of its Palestinian people forced the hand of those country.
    But I digress. Fact is in the last 70 yearsm which one of the 2 had invaded its neighbors and occupied them. Which one has bellicose intention regarding land provided to it by divine law.
    The only thing they have in common is that they are theocracies more or less democratic.

    • elihu1

      "This is following a war where another people who had a lot of experience with jews, got a little carried over with the spring cleaning. (Springtime for Hitleeeer and Germanyyyyyy!). " The Holocaust was over-exuberant spring cleaning…? Words fail me. Your ignorance of Jewish national history appears to be exceeded only by your thinly veiled anti-Semitism.

      • Whateverman

        I think the original intent was ethnic cleansing: meaning kicking the jews out of Germany. Spring cleaning.
        Now is that bad? Depends: Meir Kahan and Avigdor Lieberman (former nightclub bouncer/foreign minister. Man wore many hats) think it is a great idea…when it comes to the Palestinians and israel Arab citizens.
        So ethnic cleansing is back in fashion, at least in theory.
        But the Germans, you know how they are with their obsession with cleaning and purity…they got carried away.

        • elihu1

          You clearly have no idea what the Holocaust in particular, or true ethnic cleansing in general is about about if you can mention them and Avigdor Lieberman's preferences in the same breath. The original intent of Hitler was not to (only) kick the Jews out of Germany (although that would have been bad enough, since the Jews' only crime was being Jewish. None of them were bombing German cafe's, or blowing themselves up on commuter buses, or stoning cars. The Nazis wanted to exterminate the Jews – wipe them from the face of the earth and rid the world of Judaism. The Your flip approach to the wanton torture and murder of millions truly boggles the mind. Your previous post evidenced your narrow and shallow understanding of Jewish national history and identity.

          A wee bit of context might help your understanding of the Arab-Israeli conflict, too. A report released in 2010 by the US National Archives detailed the close collaborative relationship between Nazi leaders and the grand mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini.

          Husseini was paid handsomely by the Nazis for his efforts, recruiting Muslims for the SS and was promised that he would be made leader of Palestine after its Jewish Palestinian population of 350,000 had been murdered. On November 28, 1941, Adolf Hitler told Husseini that the Afrika Korps would “liberate” Arabs in the Middle East and that “Germany’s only objective there would be the destruction of the Jews.” Assuming that you are actually interested in deepening your understanding of events, here, you might want to shun superficial equivalences and take a more profound read of this region and the history of those who populate it,


          Whatevermoron, Please take a trip to Syria.

          70,000 dead in Syria at the hands of your Islamofascists. Maybe you can get involved on the losing side.

        • Drakken

          The Germans will be again doing a little spring cleaning in regards to your fellow turks and good bloody riddance. The jews speak hebrew you ignoramous inbred turk. As for Persian, it had a great civilization until islam gots it's devils mitts on it. As for the fakestinians, effem!

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "Words fail me."

        He's just a not-so-subtle troll.

    • defcon 4

      Relative to the islamofascist regime in power now, the Shah was a paragon of human rights. Iranian Jews weren't murdered after being accused of being Israeli "spies" and then convicted in show trials w/no public scrutiny and no appeals process. Women weren't subject to arbitrary clothing inspections by islamofascist religious police. Women wore miniskirts in Tehran. Muslim apostates weren't arrested, imprisoned and threatened w/death for converting to Christianity. Of course if islamofascism is your bag, then I guess such things are irrelevant.

      • EarlyBird

        "Relative to the islamofascist regime in power now, the Shah was a paragon of human rights."

        The Shah imprisoned 100,000 Iranians for political dissidence. Arrest and torture was standard for anyone accused of being a "political dissident," which could be a cab driver who complained about the cost of bread. Sumary executions were common. It was a standard tyranny controlled by an iron fist, however secular.

        To defend the Shah as being "paragon of human rights" in any context, is grotesque. Of course, you mean it as a way to defend the US.

        Realize that the Revolution would likely have never started had the US not overthrown and imprisoned Mossadegh, a popularly and democratically elected leader and put the Shah into power and helped him reign brutally for 30 years to begin with.

        Oh, but the Shah at least let ladies wear miniskits, so we must have done something good!

        • Drakken

          The Shah was a western ally until that idiot Carter handed the reins of power to the mullahs, the Shah miscalculated and should have eliminated every muslim mullah and ayatollah in and out of the country.

          • EarlyBird

            For that matter, Mossadegh was a Western ally until we were conned by the Brits to believe he would fall into the arms of the Soviets, even though Mossadegh was an outspoken anti-socialist. They did that – and this is not based on Chomsky, but declassified papers – because after WWII they had lost control of their former Middle East colonies, and the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, and wanted that control back.

            There was no reason we needed to knock him off and create this monstrous enemy out of Iran. If say, France had done that to the United States, and installed some brutal, un-American puppet, we would be fanatical enemies of France today.

          • EarlyBird

            Oh, and Carter didn't "hand the reins of power" to the mullahs. We aren't that omnipotent. We simply couldn't continue to keep the lid on that pressure cooker which we had created by '79. And the CIA classically missed the signs that a revolution was brewing, again.

    • F.K. Juliano

      Has anyone else ever noticed how anti-Semitic turds love to use the word "chutzpah"? There are decent people who honestly disagree and then there are the whatevermans of the world. What kind of human being calls the Holocaust "spring cleaning", but then refers to Israel's rather generous

      • F.K. Juliano

        generous treatment of Arabs, disloyal and violent as they are, as an exemplary crime, one that justifies acts like blowing up pizza places. Put another way, if whateverman thinks what the Germans did to the Jews is so benign, then he surely wouldn't mind himself and his kind getting the same treatment (I don't what his kind is, Muslim, leftist turd, or Nazi, but, like, whatever, man!)

        Incidentally, 1,400 years pre-Islamic Persia WAS a great civilization and culture. The present-day Islamic Republic of Iran is a cesspool.

    • Mary Sue

      "Iran is an ancient civilization with a great culture"
      That the muslims wiped out.

      Ok Whatever man you are a whole new level of deranged. Countries oppressing, killing, and pogroming Jews in their borders, Jews who have NOTHING to do with Israel (or how the Palestinian TERRORISTS are treated!) at the time, to teach Israel a lesson? That's pretty PETTY, ILLOGICAL, bigoted and Judaeophobic! They ended up HAVING to go to Israel BECAUSE they were persecuted by racist antisemitic bigots in the countries they came from!

      You're an irrational insane Jew Hating Judaeophobic antisemitic totalitarian prick.

      Theocracies cannot be democratic. That's why they're Theocracies. They're under the rule of whatever deity they revere, not the People.

    • Ghostwriter

      Anti-semitism,thy name is Whateverman.

  • Madona

    Whateverman: So you mean The Iranian clerics are the innocent , and the rest of the world who are condemning Iran are belligirent?

    • Whateverman

      Well, let's look at the facts. Didn't the west arm, financed and encourage Saddam to attack Iran. doesn't that kindda answer your question…

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "Didn't the west arm, financed and encourage Saddam to attack Iran."

        After Iran started a war with the USA.

        "doesn't that kindda answer your question…"

        Answered by you with deception as usual.


        Arabs killing Arabs?

        Sunni killing Shiites?

        It's the oxymoron called "The Religion of Peace".

      • Mary Sue

        I think you are a little backwards on who started that war…

  • Madonna

    First of all, Iran took US hotages. Iran declared US as great satan and started assassinating US personnel in Lebanon, …. . Iran peovoked the Shia in Iraq to stand against Saddam as well. Then Saddam attacked The cleric. Saddam kept also begging and buying arms from several companies including us ones. That doesnt mean anything. Company's jobs is to sell their products.

    • EarlyBird

      You missed the first half of the story:

      In 1953 the CIA, at the urging of the British, overthrew and imprisoned Mossadegh, Iran's popular, democratically-elected (and secular) leader. We replaced him with the Shah, a brutal tyrant who we propped up for 30 years, who was able to maintain power only due to the direct backing of the US. He was infamous for torturing, imprisoning and often executing anyone who spoke the most mild of criticisms, and it is estimated his prisons held at least 100,000 political prisoners at any time.

      After this cataclysm the US visited upon the Iranian people, in '79…

      "…Iran took US hotages. Iran declared US as great satan and started assassinating US personnel in Lebanon…"


        After 34 years of the islamofascist revolution, the shah doesn't look so bad.

      • Mary Sue

        You forgot the part about Mossadeq being a freaking commie.

        • EarlyBird

          You forgot the part that not only was he NOT a "freaking commie," but outspokenly anti-Communist. The Brits wanted us to take over Iran so that it could get back control of Iranian oilfields. Eisenhower resisted strongly, until he was lied to by the Brits that Mossadegh had "ties" to the USSR.

          This was not only completely untrue, but the CIA itself actually stated so in "after-action" reports written in the late '60s.

          You fail again.

          But let's just imagine that he was a "commie," or "socialist." So what? Was that the reason we had to wipe out that popularly elected government which posed ZERO threat to us, install an evil regime, and end up with the Iranian nightmare we have today?

          It's time to start thinking for yourself, Mary Sue. Biologically you're grown woman now.

  • Whateverman

    elihu, since you like to mention the Arabs involvement in the Holocaust, here some history that might interest you. But I am sure you already knew it, but like a good zionist you will wll try to hide from gentiles.
    Late in 1940, Lehi, having identified a common interest between the intentions of the new German order and Jewish national aspirations, proposed forming an alliance in World War II with Nazi Germany It offered assistance in transferring the Jews of Europe to Palestine, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandatory Palestine.. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik went to Beirut to meet German official Werner Otto von Hentig (who also was involved with the Haavara or Transfer Agreement, which had been transferring German Jews and their funds to Palestine since 1933) Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations

    • defcon 4

      I'd like to see proof of your assertion that anyone Jewish sought "an alliance…with Nazi Germany." Will you citations include proof from PressTV or Stormfront?

    • Drakken

      Unfortunately for you,your little arab friend the mufti of Jerusalem stopped the Germans from exiling the jews and instead encouraged them with the holacaust.

  • Whateverman

    2 Stern Gang:
    On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms. Lehi would support terrorism, sabotage and espionage operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where they had cells. Germany would recognize an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel, and all Jews leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, could enter Palestine with no restriction of number. IN OTHER WORDS, THE COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS WAS FOR A GOOD CAUSE…BUT WHEN THE ARABS DO IT…ISLAMOFACIST .

  • Whateverman

    3 Stern Gang
    According to the proposals in the Jerusalem Agreement, in exchange for Italy's recognition of, and aid in obtaining, Jewish sovereignty over Palestine, Stern promised that Zionism would come under the aegis of Italian fascism, with Haifa as its base, and the Old City of Jerusalem under Vatican control, except for the Jewish quarter. In Heller's words, Stern's proposal would turn the 'Kingdom of Israel' into a satellite of the Axis powers.THIS IS ALL IN 1940. AFTER HITLER STARTED BUILDING CONCENTRATION CAMP, YOU KNOW, THE ONES MANAGED BY MUSLIMS.
    Stern also proposed recruiting some 40,000 Jews from occupied Europe to invade Palestine with German support to oust the British. On 11 January 1941, Vice Admiral Ralf von der Marwitz, the German Naval attaché in Turkey, filed a report (the "Ankara document") conveying an offer by Lehi to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich." ACHTUNG BABY…JUDEOFASCIST MUCH?
    Von der Marwitz delivered the offer, classified as secret, to the German Ambassador in Turkey and on 21 January 1941 it was sent to Berlin. There was never any response. NICHTS, NIET, NADA, BUBKAS!

    • defcon 4

      The truth and you are rarely on speaking terms, unless you claim your islamofascist delusions/propaganda as truth.

    • elihu1

      Yeah. Here's the thing. (Besides my dispute with your version of the facts regarding the Stern Gang- you might want to name a credible third part source for your info. Selective block quotes from Wikipedia sections punctuated there with "citation needed" – that you have conveniently excluded- just won't cut it. ) The Stern gang- a splinter group- itself had many different factions and lots of people in it had lots of different ideas. Some members of the Stern Gang mayhave believed that a tactical (NOT strategic) arrangement with totalitarian regimes in power could have value. This is similar to the U.S.' ill-fated allinaces with Mujahedeen or temporary support of Saddam Hussein. Note that this remains quite different from the Mufti's Hussieni's strategic (not tactical) alliance with The Reich, being on its payroll, etc. The Arab wholesale alignment with the ideology and tactics of Nazism is striking. Anyone familiar with the Arab press sees clearly the anti-Semitic tropes it regulalry embraces and promulgates. The current leadership of the Palestinian Arabs also is drenched in such poison. Read the stuff they put out in Arabic – rather than what they put out for American consumption. Even Norway has woken up to this inconvenient truth. Second, the elements of the Stern gang that you use to characterize its overall nature never became the leadership of Israel and their way of viewing the world was always markedly marginal in the Jewish community in general and Israel, in particular. Unlike Husseini who's vision was and remains representative of the Arabs in general – as expressed in their various countries' state-run media outlets since the 40's to this day – Israelis have no truck with the Nazis or their genocidal policies. Unlike the "islamo-facists" you mention (your term, not mine) national aspirations of the Jews are not built on a creed of destruction. Hamas and Arafat's Fatah on on the other hand, are just that. Look at the Hamas Charter. Look at the school curriculae of the PA and pay close attention to whom the Palestinian Arabs continue to publicly lionize as "martyrs".

      If all you can grasp at are marginalized individual examples from Wikipedia that lack credible supporting citation, there's not a lot to talk about. Have you spent any time here observing reality on the ground? Your flip tone, cursory analysis of German motivation and your snide oblique comments about Jews and waht you assume they think of of other communities indicates that you have no serious knowledge of what actually occurred during the Holocaust and remain completely hide-bound by your anti-Semitic notions of how Jews actually relate to others living on the planet. Pity. By the way, it is you who hide without a picture and use of a pseudonym. It is eminently clear why you do so. The hatred you peddle can not bear the light of truth. If you are so convinced of your position, come play in Syria, Sudan, Lebanon or Egypt – all idyllic, pastoral wonderland where at least one side of the conflicts there must share your worldview and where most share your view of Israel and Jews. Those vacation spots are rapidly forming societies that are permeated all sweetness and light Or, you might choose to come to Israel – where you will be free to spout whatever nonsense you like and the only thing you might have shattered are your stereotypes – and possibly your ego.

      • defcon 4

        Why your rebuttal is brilliant, it's all pearls before swine, because muslo-fascists aren't interested in honest debate or even the truth but spreading islamofascist propaganda.

    • elihu1

      Thanks for this – I just wanted to hold up a mirror to his points and raise the level of the dialogue. Intellectual bullying won't pass muster, here. One must have an actual argument. If anyone else has benefited from this exchange I haven't wasted my time.

      • Drakken

        There is no dialogue with muslims, always have them under your boot so they don't bite you.




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    • Handi


  • Sierra

    The Ottoman empire under the caliphite was allied with Gemany. But my question is what about the Balfour Declaration to bring Jews to Palestine?

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "But my question is what about the Balfour Declaration to bring Jews to Palestine?"

      What is your question?

      • EarlyBird

        What is your excuse?

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  • Pragmatic Poliics

    Rafizadeh also seems to be a fan of Turkey’s harun yahya (cult of adnan oktar) a well-known Shoah denier who to this day calls Jews “G-dless Atheists.” Wonder why that is?