Trying to Give Scholarly Respectability to the ‘Right of Return’ Fantasy

Seeming to give credence to Orwell’s observation that “some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them,” on April 6th and 7th, Boston University will be hosting a Students for Justice in Palestine-run “Right of Return Conference,” yet another example of how purported scholarship about the Middle East is frequently biased and diluted by ideology.

Most sentient observers of the Palestinian issue know that the “right of return” issue is a core tactic in rendering real peace, any viable Arab/Israeli solution, effectively impossible, that the prospect of some 5-7 million Palestinian refugees flooding into what is now Israel would, as University of Haifa professor Steven Plaut put it, “derail Israel demographically and turn it into the Rwanda of the Levant.” That is exactly why every one of the participants of the BU conference are part of a retinue of the hate-Israel crowd, a traveling road-show of politicized scholars, propagandists, and pseudo- and non-academic activists with only a thinly-veiled animus towards Israel, Zionism, and Jews in general. What this conference clearly is not is a true academic or scholarly exercise designed to reveal some rational and reasonable solutions in the Middle East; instead, it is yet another opportunity for ideologues with an anti-Israel, anti-Western agenda to trumpet their perverse views under a cloak of academic respectability, and here even with Boston University’s imprimatur.

The demand for a right of return, a notion referred to by Palestinians and their supporters as “sacred” and an “enshrined” universal human right granted by UN resolutions and international law, in fact, has no legal or diplomatic standing at all, and is part of the propaganda campaign that is based on the thinking that if Israel cannot be eradicated by the Arabs through a military war, it can be effectively destroyed by forcing it to accept demographic subversion.

In the first place, it uses the fraud as its core notion that the Palestinians were “victimized” by the creation of Israel, and that they were expelled from a land of “Palestine” where they were the indigenous people “from time immemorial,” as historian Joan Peters put it in her book of the same name.

More importantly, far from being either a “sacred” or, for that matter, legal right, the right of return is a one-sided concoction that deliberately misreads United Nations resolutions for political advantage, and conveniently embraces only those portions that fit the intent of Arabs to make good on their intent to “drive Israel into the sea.” In continually repeating the lie that they are victims of the “Zionist regime” and that they were expelled from a country of their own and condemned to unending refugee status, the Palestinians ‒ and their Arab enablers ‒ have prolonged the myth of victimhood.

There is some irony in the fact that the Palestinians have repeatedly violated both the spirit and intent of 194, that particular UN resolution containing a reference to the concept of ‘return’ to one’s country, although two key points are characteristically ignored by those pointing to this source as justification for their legal claim. First, Resolution 194 was the product of the UN General Assembly and “is an expression of sentiment and carries no binding force whatsoever,” meaning that it is meant to make recommendations but not enforceable law.

Moreover, that permission is subject to two conditions ‒ that “the refugee wishes to return, and that he wishes to live at peace with his neighbors,” something the Arab world, even now, has clearly never seen fit to do. Legal scholars also point out that international law grants the right to leave or return to one’s country only to individuals, not as a collective right as the Palestinians claim. More importantly, no population of refugees has ever presumed that the right of return ‒ if such a right even exists ‒ could be claimed, not only by the original refugees, but also by all of their descendants.

So it should come as no surprise that the list of guest speakers for the repugnant Right of Return Conference includes a galaxy of notorious anti-Israel Jew-haters whose contribution to the event’s awareness-raising will not likely be an animated discussion of approaches to the Israeli-Palestine conflict, but a one-sided, biased, inflammatory series of exhortations calling for continued assault against the very existence of Israel and the eventual extirpation of the Jewish state.

One of the conference’s keynote speakers, for example, is Columbia University’s Joseph Massad, an associate professor of modern Arab politics who regularly espouses his loathing of Israel in fringe, anti-Semitic publications like Counterpunch and The Electronic Intifada, or in the Arab press, and never misses an opportunity to denigrate the Jewish state as a racist, colonial enterprise, a moral stain on the world without any semblance of legitimacy. He assigns blame for all of the turmoil in the Palestinian territories to the brutal Israeli regime, claims that the “Jewish state is a racist state that does not have the right to exist,” and ignores completely any role the Arabs states may have had in inciting violence and murdering Jews in the name of what he, and his like-minded apologists for jihadist terror, categorizes as legitimate “resistance” to occupation.

In fact, in his perfervid imagination, Israelis have become the new Nazis and the Palestinians the Jews. “As Palestinians are murdered and injured in the thousands,” he wrote after Operation Cast Lead in January of 2009 when Israel was defending itself against some 6,000 rocket attacks from Gaza, “world powers are cheering on…, and it even happened during World War II as the Nazi genocide was proceeding.” Perversely likening the barbaric aggression of Hamas from within Gaza to the efforts of Warsaw Jews to repel imminent extermination by the Nazis, Massad obscenely suggested that “The Gaza Ghetto Uprising will mark both the latest chapter in Palestinian resistance to colonialism and the latest Israeli colonial brutality in a region whose peoples will never accept the legitimacy of a racist European colonial settlement in their midst.”

Professor Massad is also quite willing to invoke stereotypes and overlook history and fact when describing the malevolence of Israel and the victimization of Palestinians. In a 2009 article in The Electronic Intifada, ironically entitled “Israel’s Right to Defend Itself,” Massad concluded that Israel, due to its fundamental racist nature and oppression of the Palestinians, has no moral, or legal, right to self-defense, suggesting that “What the Palestinians ultimately insist on is that Israel must be taught that it does not have the right to defend its racial supremacy, and that the Palestinians have the right to defend their universal humanity against Israel’s racist oppression.”

A second planned keynote speaker is Salman Abu Sitta, co-founder of Al-Awda, The Palestine Right to Return Coalition, a grassroots organization that uses as its core tagline, “Palestine will be free, from the River to the Sea,” meaning a new Palestinian state replacing, not co-existing with, Israel. He has referred to the “Nakba,” the Palestinian’s name for the tragedy they suffered upon the creation of Israel, as the “largest, longest operation of planned ethnic cleansing in history.” In grotesque thinking similar to Massad’s, Abu Sitta also tried to make analogous Israel’s interaction with Palestinians with the Nazi’s treatment of Jews by referring to Gaza as “the new Auschwitz.”

Representing yet another virulently anti-Israel position is human rights activist and lawyer Noura Erakat, a fellow at Temple University’s law school and the U.S.-based Legal Advocacy Consultant for the Badil Resource Center for Palestinian Refugee and Residency Rights. In 2006, when recruiting legal volunteers on behalf of The Middle East Subcommittee of the National Lawyers Guild to work as activists for the Palestinian cause, Erakat invited prospects to do “human rights work” in what she termed “Occupied Palestine,” “all lands occupied in 1967 and 1948” ‒ meaning that she believes that all of present-day Israel is occupied Arab land.

The Conference’s opening panel is entitled “Discourses of Return and Resistance Among Palestinian Refugees,” which might be taken as a planning session for terror, given that the term “resistance” is pro-Palestinian activist’s oft-used euphemism for suicide attacks. In fact, one of that panel’s participants, Charlotte Kates, former Rutgers law student and leader of the New Jersey Solidarity Movement, long a champion of the Palestinian right of “resistance,” has often supported “Palestinians’ right to resist occupation and oppression… Why is there something particularly horrible about ‘suicide bombing,’ except for the extreme dedication conveyed in the resistance fighter’s willingness to use his or her own body to fight?” In addition to calling on her own university, Rutgers, to divest from companies doing business with Israel, her ultimate ambitions were even more odious: “Israel is an apartheid, colonial settler state,” she said. “I do not believe apartheid, colonial settler states have a right to exist.” And if this on-campus hostility towards Israel and Jews intimidated Jewish students, so be it, Kates said at Rutgers. “We have no desire to create an environment where racists may feel comfortable and secure in their racism; we very much want…. to create an environment where it is, indeed, uncomfortable to declare oneself an unequivocal supporter of an oppressive, racist state. It should be uncomfortable…. May the tension continue to escalate.”

The motivation for this BU conference is very clear: prolong the myth of Palestinian victimization and grant them, as part of that mythology, exclusive international recognition and supposed legal rights. Why? “Unlike all those many millions of other people considered refugees in the late 1940s,” answers professor Plaut, “the ‘Palestinians’ were the only ones for whom the ‘right of return’ to their previous homes was considered an entitlement. The reason was not a selective affection for Palestinians, but a selective hostility towards Israel and Jews.”

Having a conference with the primary intention to demonize and delegitimize Israel, while promoting a legally- and morally-defective approach to achieving Palestinian self-affirmation, is not an academic exercise of any merit; it is propaganda parading as scholarship, and violates not only one of the basic precepts of scholarship but also the spirit of any university, which were conceived as places where faculty and students could debate – with academic integrity, reason,  and an absence of bias – the important issues of the marketplace of ideas.

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  • http://www.adinakutnicki.com AdinaK

    While there are too many malefactors to cite – regarding the anti-Zionists (anti-semites) trolling leftist academia – the fact of the matter is that chief culprits are rarely, if ever, mentioned.

    To wit, in furtherance of said "outing", the following is more than instructive, and illustrative, of the menacing forces inciting on US (and western) campuses – http://adinakutnicki.com/2013/02/28/the-assorted-

    And if not for the following, the above wouldn't be possible – http://adinakutnicki.com/2012/08/21/the-paradox-p

    WAY past time to hold them accountable!

    Adina Kutnicki, Israel http://adinakutnicki.com/about/

    • Mary Sue

      *facepalm*

      Stop picking on the Israeli, geez.

    • Trevor

      She uses fpm to spam the site with links to her blog…Aint that so, Adina!?!

    • Cassandra

      You are so blind to the truth and so full of hate.I feel sorry for you.

      • defcon 4

        LIke any muslo-fascist he doesn't deserve your sympathy. He CHOSE to believe in the vile ideology that is islam, no one forced him to do so.

        • EarlyBird

          Hey dipcom, is a guy who cuts you off in traffic a "muslo-fascist"? How about a dog that bites you? Is he an Islamosfacist?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            EarlyTurd,

            A "muslo-fascist" is

            - a savage who hijacks passenger planes and fly them into buildings
            - kidnaps people and cuts their throat and puts the video on the Internet
            - bombs passenger planes like Pan Am 103
            - stones women to death over "family honor"

          • Mary Sue

            dogs can't be islamofascists. Dogs are forbidden and unclean in Islam.

    • defcon 4

      You meant allah right?

    • EarlyBird

      She's a self-promoter extradordinaire! FPM should be charging her a fee.

      • Choi

        FU TOO,EB

      • Drakken

        Everytime you and that pos muzzy whateverman call her names and vilify her, you know she is on target.

    • Choi

      FU.TROLL
      She is 7-10 hrs ahead of the Continental North America and awake when this site is first put up on the web.
      Adina does GREAT and that's why a POS like you,"whateverman",attacks her.

  • WilliamJamesWard

    Scholarly dignity, I wonder just how much scholarship any leftist University has today, they are
    just education (lol) mills to place dimwitted juveniles in debt for the rest of thier lives and set
    thier minds in propaganda mode against Jews. It is all paid for with Islamist monies from the
    Muslim Naitons, outsiders using America for thier further conquest of the World, leftists
    creating idiots and Islamists telling the morons what to believe, that is the crime and lies
    get older and older with this group of thugs. No faux Palestinians should be in America nor
    Muslim colonizers, deport them all…………………………………………………William

    • stern

      But the scary thing is that they are teaching the leaders of tomorrow to believe this garbage! Thank heavens for David Horowitz and the Academic Bill of Rights.

      • defcon 4

        Way back when I went to UCLA I had a leftist professor who propagated the lie that Israel was an apartheid state, all while ignoring the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the rest of the Mid-East and N. Africa. He has us reading islamofascist propaganda as "literature" and part of his "balanced" viewpoint on Israel. There was also a Turkish muslime "professor" who regularly denied the Armenian genocide, not only as his personal opinion, but as dogmatic historical fact in his classes on Turkish history. I really don't want my tax dollars supporting the lying, leftist islamic propaganda centers that US universities have become.

        • Drakken

          If they are an aparteid state, why are those effing fakestinians still alive? If I was Israel, I would have run Gaza into the sea and kicked every muzzy in the west bank into Jordan and called it a day.

        • defcon 4

          I couldn't care less if Israel expelled all the islamofascists living in Israel, the W. Bank and Gaza. It's no less than what your islamofascist brethren have done to the Jews who used to live throughout the Mid-East and N. Africa.

        • Gee59

          According to the Arab definition of apartheid we are an apartheid. Their definition is any country where the Muslims do not have absolute rule is an apartheid state.

          It has nothing to do with equality – because Muslim do not believe or want equality. They want to be in control, ans we are preventing that which means that we are nasty racists with an apartheid state

      • WilliamJamesWard

        Yes and as a shining light of truth we know the darkness has no power over it……William

  • imalert

    Zechariah 12, what more can I say.

  • Loyal Achates

    I enjoy the fact that you cite Joan Peters – whose work was dismissed decades ago as rubbish – to call the right of return a 'fraud'. I also appreciate the idea that Palestinians, alone among all the peoples of the world, are not entitled to international law allowing for the return of refugees and their descendants.

    • Lan Astaslem

      the faux 'palestinians' should send their descendants, bombs, rockets and suicide vests to jordan

    • EthanP

      Kurds, Tibetans are two who come quickly to mind. I'm certain you can find othes on the net. But Jews aren't involved so you don't care.

      • Loyal Achates

        Who says they don't have the right of return?

        • defcon 4

          What about the right of return of the Jewish people to Medina (or is it Yathrib)? After all, your own holey books indicate these cities belonged to Jews before Muhammad murdered, expelled and enslaved them. Anything to say about that Ahmed?

          • EarlyBird

            Be clear, Dipcom, that you are supporting the right of ethnically based warfare. I'll prove it to you:

            Dipcom4: "What about the right of return of the Jewish people to Medina (or is it Yathrib)?"

            Hey Bubba, what about the right of return of the Chickasaw to return and kick you out of your backwoods trailer and still? Fair is fair, right?

          • Choi

            THE" RIGHT OF RETURN" IS THE JEWISH PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO RETURN TO THEIR ANCESTERAL AND ANCIENT COUNTRY ,ISRAEL!

          • defcon 4

            Muslimes are committing ethnic based warfare all over the world right now, yet you don't have a problem w/that do you Ali?

            Here in California we still have self-governing tribal states. Do non- muslims enjoy self-governing states in any of your islamofascist misery theme parks?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            defcon AKBAR!

          • defcon 4

            I must admit your "Happy Eternal Nakba" is one of my new favorite greetings to the world's islamofascist population.

          • Michael

            Birdbrain,
            Your comments never cease to amaze me. Maybe you need to pass grade 6 before you try commenting in an adult room

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "…you are supporting the right of ethnically based warfare."

            No he's not. You're just a liar. He's calling out an inconsistency.

          • Whateverman

            jews were only officially expelled from Arab countries where they have lived for millenias only after the establishment of israel and its subsequent treatment of Palestinians.
            I know you know that. No one can be that stupid.

          • defcon 4

            The Baghdad pogrom happened before Israel was established 'tard. As did the Grand Mufti's lobbying Hitler to stop merely deporting Jews (to "Paleswine") and start murdering them instead.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Now the Jews have expelled the mohammedean invaders back to arabia.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "jews were only officially expelled from Arab countries where they have lived for millenias only after the establishment of israel and its subsequent treatment of Palestinians."

            False.

          • Mary Sue

            So explain the expulsion of Sephardic Jews from Spain, centuries before Israel was established, kthx.

          • Mary Sue

            That's pretty racist, you know, for that to be the reason. Assuming all Jews are like Israel or Israel's Government? RACIST.

          • defcon 4

            "…its subsequent treatment of palestinians." Who have killed how many Israelis over the last 65 years? Who have fired how many rocket and mortar rounds into Israel over the last 8 years? Who have blown up how many buses and pizzerias? Who fired an AT rocket into a school bus?

          • Tom Stafford

            How can you even start to believe that crap? The Romans removed a lot of jews from the Holy Land in the second century AD or CE. But the Jews were still the majority with a smattering of Christians throughout all of what is now Israel, Syria, and Lebanon. The Moslem scourge did not even exist until the fourth century. Christians became a large percentage of the population after the Roman Emperor Constantine embraced Chritianity in the fourth century. Many Roman Soldiers immediately followed Constantine's lead. Christian communities that had been meeting in secret were able to come into the light and more people admitted their belief. Roman rule continued for a few centuries until the Moslems began pushing every one else out of the southeastern Mediterainian. Istanbul was known as Constantinople until the 15th century when the Moslems sacked the city and sold everyone that they did not kill into slavery. They also took over one of the laergest cathedrals ever constructed, the Hagia Sophia and turned it into a Mosque. A very traditional habit for Moslems.

        • Drakken

          With that in mind, I should get all my families lands and estates in East Prussia back right? Or is it the poor little muslim savages that you have a hard on for?

          • EarlyBird

            General, you know how when you're commanding troops in the field you want them to use the right tool for the job?

            Make sure you don't use the wrong argument, either. By virtue of demanding the Jews' right to return to land which they owned thousands of years ago, IS to support your right of return to East Prussia, and the Muslims' return to wherever they can claim as once theirs? Like, Palestine, for instance.

          • Drakken

            There is no palistine and are no palistinians period, they are muslim arabs and deserve no quarter. Just remember REMF, quit giving the muzzy savages moral eqivilancy when there isn't any. Say, how is that COEXIST nonsense working out for ya?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Make sure you don't use the wrong argument, either. By virtue of demanding the Jews' right to return to land which they owned thousands of years ago, IS to support your right of return to East Prussia, and the Muslims' return to wherever they can claim as once theirs?"

            He's exposing the arguments of others to be false.

          • Drakken

            XBox? Really? is that the best you can do? Teutonic roots yes thanks for asking, my fathers side, oh yes judenfrei with papers and everything, as a matter of fact they go back centuries. Try harder muzzy. I see you still haven't taken my advice and gone to Gaza to go fight for the jihadst cause?

          • defcon 4

            Still beating your head on the floor 5 times a day while cursing Christians and Jews eh?
            Try putting a carpet tack down right where your forehead bangs the floor, it'll get you closer to allah…

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Why not killing the wrong kind of Muslim, whatevermaggot pals also curse Hindus, Buddhists and Bahais.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          Islamists have the Right of Return to HELL along side their "prophet" muhammed.

        • Gee59

          International law – try the UN Charter Article 2

        • Omar

          Apparently you do, Achates, since you oppose Israel's right to exists. The Tibetans have a right to their own state, since they are an ethnicity, unlike the so-called "Palestinians" who are an invented people (Newt Gingrich is right). The Tibetans had their land stolen by Communist China (with support from the former Soviet Union-and now Russia) in 1950. The genocide of Tibetans is still going on after 63 years of Communist China's brutal control and occupation of Tibet. It is also a well known fact that pro-Israel activists generally support a Free Tibet, while anti-Israel activists generally oppose a Free Tibet.

          • Loyal Achates

            "It is also a well known fact that pro-Israel activists generally support a Free Tibet, while anti-Israel activists generally oppose a Free Tibet."

            Well-known? Example, please. 'Free Tibet' has been a left-wing staple for decades.

            I support of Right of Return for all peoples but as a practical matter we can't go back to the Bronze Age for these things – Jews (and any other group) have a right to live in Israel or Palestine but they had no right to take the land by force and expel the inhabitants.

            Which is another thing: even if you think the Palestinians are fake, do you accept them as 'real' human beings? Because if they are, they have an INDIVIDUAL right to return to the homes they were kicked out of (and many still have the deeds and titles to prove it) and receive compensation for lost property.

          • Drakken

            Too damn bad, you effing muzzys lost the wars you effing savages started, to the victors go the spoils.

          • Omar

            While it is true that some leftists support a Free Tibet, most leftists oppose a Free Tibet because the left is generally in support of Communist China, since China is still ruled by a far-left regime. That regime is still Communist in all except economics. Contrary to what you say, the Tibetans are ideologically conservative and anti-Communist in nature. Unlike the so-called "Palestinians" (who are an invented people), the Tibetans are pro-American, pro-Western and pro-democracy. Furthermore, Israel and the Western countries (as well as their democratic allies elsewhere) are one of the few places in the world where the people actually pay attention to the plight of the Tibetans at the hands of the Communist Chinese and their Russian sponsors. The United Nations, which has been dominated by the political left and its Islamist allies since the 1970s, has often ignored the Tibetans' pleas for an independent State of Tibet (the Tibetans' desire for an independent state has often been struck down at the UN by Communist China and its totalitarian allies like Cuba and Sudan), even as the same UN supports the creation of an Islamist totalitarian country carved out of Israel. Unlike the so-called "Palestinians", the Tibetans are an indigenous ethnic group. Unlike the Tibetans, the so-called "Palestinians" are indeed fake. Palestine is not an ethnicity. Palestine is a geographical name that refers to the Holy Land region (Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and Jordan). Anyone who lives in the Holy Land region is a Palestinian, regardless of characteristics. The Israelis and Jordanians are Palestinians. Palestine is not even an Arabic name. Palestine is a Latin name meaning Philistines, who were Greek sailors who had red hair (the Philistines were not Arabs). As for Zionism, it is simply a movement to establish a Jewish state in the Holy Land where Jews have lived there continuously for over 3000 years. The Holy Land was conquered by the Romans in 66 AD/CE, about 600 years before Islam was established and when the Arabs started moving into the area. What lands were stolen? Arabs living in Israel have more rights and liberties as Israeli citizens than people living in other countries in the Middle East. For over 65 years-from 1948 to the present-Israel has repeatedly tried to make peace with its neighbors in the region. The Islamists don't want peace with Israel. The Islamists want totalitarianism and oppression. Instead of trying to support the destruction of Israel, why don't you try to support the rights of the Tibetan people in their struggle for independence from China? Why don't you support the indigenous black Africans in Sudan, who are suffering at the hands of the Islamist military dictatorship? Yet, you don't support the Tibetans nor the black Sudanese people because you support their respective oppressors. You view both regimes (in China and Sudan) as "progressive" and advocates of so-called "social justice". Quit repeating leftist/Islamist lies and propaganda and learn from facts.

    • reader

      I for one appreciate the idea that NO OTHER people of the world is entitled to the right of return. Neither Suddeten Germans, nor Vyborg Finns, nor Kuril Islands Japanese, nor the Jews from Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jorden and Lebanon. Hmmmm.

    • stern

      There is NO international law anywhere that gives any refugee the "right of return" – not for actual refugees and certainly not for their descendants. So where on earth do you get the notion that the "Palestinians" should have such an invented right?

      • Loyal Achates

        Universal Declaration of Human Rights (which Israel signed)? UN Resolution 194?

        • gee59

          A GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION? That is a right? You are a fraud, it is ILLEGAL.

          It violates Article 2 of the UN Charter and is a recommendation only – it is not a right.

        • stern

          did you read the article? Apparently not.

    • EarlyBird

      'I also appreciate the idea that Palestinians, alone among all the peoples of the world, are not entitled to international law allowing for the return of refugees and their descendants."

      The fact is, in the situation of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, to demand a "right of return" for Pals is to demand an obliteration of Israel itself. It is a non-starter in any so-called peace process looking for a two state solution. The Pals are wrong on this.

      • defcon 4

        What does the charter of Hamas say about Jews and Israel again Usman?

        • Gran Cor

          "Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it…Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security."

          Hamas Charter, Article 31

          You asked, I answered.

          • stern

            And what about the rest of it? Immediately after the bit you have so selectively quoted, there's this:

            " Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect."

            I especially like that last bit – you know, where Islam has to reign supreme over everyone else. Guess you must have missed that, yeah? Plus all the other bits about how trees and rocks will call out to Muslims to come and kill the Jews hiding behind them. Or where the only solution is the annihilation of Israel, by jihad. All those really sweet gentle bits that you seem to have skipped over.

          • defcon 4

            It gets a helluva lot worse than that, the Hama charter quotes one of the "authentic" hadith that call for the extermination of Jews (Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas):

            But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            How "socialist" of you Gran Cor to misinform and misrepresent.

          • Omar

            Hamas is not a "humane" organization at all. Hamas is a genocidal organization that seeks to destroy Israel, commit genocide against the Jews and impose Islamist totalitarianism in the Middle East and around the world. Hamas supports genocide, imperialism and totalitarianism.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Hamas is not a "humane" organization at all."

            Islamic peace.
            Islamic justice.
            Islamic logic.
            Islamic humane treatment.

            All under sharia. No thanks.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it…"

            Right. Anyone not compliant with Islamic sharia is "hostile" towards it.

            "Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security."

            Under dhimmitude. Maybe. In theory. They can coexist until they're dead. They may not be happy about it but they'll exist until the day they stop existing. The religion of peace guarantees it.

          • defcon 4

            I've read that dhimmitude includes provisions that non-muslim houses of worship cannot be built or repaired, but I've never seen any koranic verses which support that theory.

      • Loyal Achates

        "It is a non-starter in any so-called peace process looking for a two state solution."

        Well, you're right about that. Personally I've always held the belief that the Palestinians should simply omit any discussion of the Right of Return in any final-status negotiations. It's an issue that can be settled peacefully once both countries have some semblance of order and cordial relations. The Israelis, however, have insisted that the Palestinian leadership explicitly deny the Right of Return – either indirectly, by recognizing Israel as 'a Jewish State' (which is never defined) or by name. Not surprisingly the Pals have refused to do this, because no leader of any country has a right to do it on behalf of his people.

        In practice the Israelis are already building a one-state solution, and if they continue down this road they can either absorb the Palestinians without citizenship (becoming an apartheid state) or expel them and become an international pariah.

        • stern

          "no leader of any country has a right to do it on behalf of his people"

          Huh? Isn't that why we have elections? Oh sorry, forgot, Abbas has refused to hold elections that are now about 4 years overdue. So if Abbas has "no right" to make peace on behalf of his people, then what the heck are we even talking about here? (Man, you really have to defy logic to be an anti-Israel twit.)

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "no leader of any country has a right to do it on behalf of his people"

            It makes no sense at all unless he means "under sharia." Especially since they have no sense or legal platform for "rights" in that "country" outside of sharia.

            This guy is either a fully immersed dupe or a sharia compliant Muslim.

        • Drakken

          If you think the muzzys will ever give Israel any peace you are clearly on effing drugs. One or the other is going to have to perish, my bet is on our western ally Israel over the muzzy savages.

        • Omar

          Israel is not an apartheid state. Israel is a tolerant state that respects the rights and liberties of everyone living there, regardless of characteristics. Arabs living in Israel have more rights and liberties as Israeli citizens than people living in other countries in the Middle East. Why don't you condemn the Assad socialist dictatorship in Syria for committing mass aggression and violence against its own people? Why don't you condemn the military dictatorship in Sudan? Sudan has a racist, sexist Islamist dictatorship that behaves worse than South Africa's former apartheid regime. The regime in Sudan has committed genocide against its black Christian population (Remember Darfur?). Yet, you don't condemn the regimes in Syria and Sudan because you support them. You view both dictatorships as "progressive" and defenders of so-called "social justice". Achates, you oppose democracy and support Communist and Islamist totalitarianism. What you really want is a world where women would be treated like chattel, where homosexuals would be lynched from cranes for being homosexual, and where Jews and peoples of other faiths and beliefs (as well as non-religious peoples) are not allowed in. Quit repeating leftist/Islamist lies and propaganda and learn from facts.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "Well, you're right about that. Personally I've always held the belief that the Palestinians should simply omit any discussion of the Right of Return in any final-status negotiations. It's an issue that can be settled peacefully once both countries have some semblance of order and cordial relations."

          Right. Which is evidence that's not their end goal.

          "The Israelis, however, have insisted that the Palestinian leadership explicitly deny the Right of Return – either indirectly, by recognizing Israel as 'a Jewish State' (which is never defined) or by name. Not surprisingly the Pals have refused to do this, because no leader of any country has a right to do it on behalf of his people."

          No right under sharia to do so. Maybe that's the precise point.

          "In practice the Israelis are already building a one-state solution, and if they continue down this road they can either absorb the Palestinians without citizenship (becoming an apartheid state) or expel them and become an international pariah."

          Whatever you say.

        • defcon 4

          "…become an international pariah." Gee, the islamofascists have already done a good job of that. It wouldn't seem to possible to make Israel any more of a pariah than it already is.

      • Gee59

        Actually it is not a right – nor is it legal for ANYBODY. The UN Charter itself states that every country has the right to decide who can and who cannot enter their country. The only 'right of return' is for their own citizens.

        Are you attempting to claim that "Palestinians" are Israeli citizens? Try Jordanian not Israeli and you would be correct – the have a right of return to Jordan not Israel

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "I enjoy the fact that you cite Joan Peters – whose work was dismissed decades ago as rubbish – to call the right of return a 'fraud'."

      Yes Mr. Finklestein. You're not an authority anyone respects who isn't an established liar or one of their dupes.

      "I also appreciate the idea that Palestinians, alone among all the peoples of the world, are not entitled to international law allowing for the return of refugees and their descendants."

      That's a complete lie. They are held to the same standards as anyone else, except by insane liars and lunatic jihadis. You simply support sharia as we fight it.

    • Mary Sue

      the palestinians have the right to return…TO FREAKING SAUDI ARABIA

      • defcon 4

        Or Jordan, at some point Jordan was supposed to be the "Palestinian" homeland.

      • SCREW SOCIALISM

        Paleswinians have the right of return… TO HELL.

  • Texas Patriot

    There is only one question that needs to be asked those who wish to return to their former homes in Israel: Do you believe the State of Israel has a right to exist, and are you willing to renounce the Islamic doctrine that lands conquered by Muslim armies remain Muslim lands forever? If the answer is "no", there should be no right of return. Moreover, those who do not answer both questions "yes", should not be allowed to stay. Every national entity has a right to defend itself from those whose belief systems are committed to destroying it. Thus, those who wish to destroy any nation should not be surprised if their presence is not allowed. And what goes for Israel should also go for every Western nation where Muslims have immigrated with the ultimate intent of overthrowing the existing order and establishing Muslim law. Those who wish to destroy a civilization should not be permitted to enter, and those who have already entered should not be permitted to stay.

    • Loyal Achates

      1. What is a 'right to exist' in legal terms?
      2. You understand that this would still end the Jewish majority in Israel, right?

      • defcon 4

        I'm sure that last sentence has you salivating too doesn't it Farshad? I'm certain the Bahais, Druze, Christians and Jews of Israel have no desire to live under islamofascist rule, considering that's exactly what they fled from in the rest of the Mid-East and N. Africa. NO, on the whole, the world doesn't need another islamofascist misery theme park, not in the Mid-East, nor anywhere else.

        • Drakken

          Us westerners against anything muslim of any stripe because they are anti civilization,so your going to have ot pardon me if I have more concern about ours over theirs.

        • defcon 4

          Israel is the only state in the Mid-East and N. Africa where Jews, Christians, Bahai and Druze aren't being murdered, raped, forcibly converted or persecuted by the rest of your muslime brethren. Whereas your palesimian brethren don't allow any synagogues to operate anywhere they have control and the persecution of Christians SOP. Your lies run thin Ahmed.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "Like you give a s**t about the Bahaais, Druze, Christians or even Jews for that matter."

          Talking birds that also read minds. Fascinating. It can't be your imagination.

          "Two decades ago you'd be among the Bubbas denouncing the Jewish International Cabal."

          And prophecy as well. Amazing.

          "Boy the neo-cons and Israel Firsters sure know how to push your buttons."

          "Buttons" of lunatics need to be pushed.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          EarlyTurd, How "progressive" of you to stand shoulder to shoulder to the most REGRESSIVE "underdogs" in the world – 1.5 BILLION sunni/shiite/wahabbi/salafits.

          You EarlyTurd are what is known as a USEFUL IDIOT.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "1. What is a 'right to exist' in legal terms? 2. You understand that this would still end the Jewish majority in Israel, right?"

        That's why sovereigns need constitutions. Pure democracy is a recipe for tyranny of the mob and simple anarchy.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "1. What is a 'right to exist' in legal terms? "

        It's simply political rhetoric to prove that these people have nothing but malicious intentions and can't even acknowledge that sovereigns have rights too. It's presumed to be true for any sovereign or person and is denied by jihadis in Israelis case.

        I can't believe they thought leftists would understand. It's pointless trying to reason with psychotics.

    • EarlyBird

      In the case of Israel, it's even simpler than that, Tex.

      For a Palestinian to demand a "right of return" in the context of Israel, is to demand the end of Israel, physically. So it's a total non-starter to begin with.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "For a Palestinian to demand a "right of return" in the context of Israel, is to demand the end of Israel, physically. So it's a total non-starter to begin with."

        I demand the right to return you to Mars where you belong.

  • theleastthreat

    Through History, Jews have been blamed for human misery and driven off. How many more times will that be happening?

    • Texas Patriot

      It should be no surprise that the purity and holiness laws which form the core of Jewish identity are despised by mankind. Why? God is despised by mankind, and those who attempt to live in accordance with God's laws will of course be despised by mankind. The odd thing is that Jesus came to say that the Jews were not pure and holy enough, and that "If your virtue goes no deeper than the scribes and the pharisees, you will never get into the kingdom of heaven. The establishment of the Jewish State of Israel is a watershed moment for humanity, and particularly for Jews and Christians who believe that God is God, and God's law is God's law.

      Israelis should be under no illusion that permitting those to remain within their territory who do not share their vision of being "God's chosen people" will eventually seek to destroy them. Therefore, it seems clear that the time for peaceful co-oexistence with those who wish to destroy Israel has passed. As we say in Texas, at this point there needs to be a "line in the sand", and it needs to be clear and unmistakable. Either you are with us or you are against us, and if you are against us, you need to leave now.

      And that same line needs to be drawn in every country where Muslims have immigrated under the false guise of being a peaceful and benevolent religion. As any Muslim will tell you, Islam is in a state of war with all those who do not submit to Islam. If you submit to Islam, there will be peace. Otherwise, there will be war. There is no longer any room for pretending about this essential existential fact.

      • Trevor

        Erm, with the exception of the 'Messianic' community, Jews rejected God when they rejected Jesus.

        Also, "religion" which relies on "the law" for salvation is a dead religion ie. Judaism, Islam etc.

        • Texas Patriot

          "Erm, with the exception of the 'Messianic' community, Jews rejected God when they rejected Jesus. Also, "religion" which relies on "the law" for salvation is a dead religion ie. Judaism, Islam etc."

          The Jews did not reject God. The failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah, and therefore they failed to recognize the final piece of the puzzle in God's salvation plan. But that does not mean that God's previous efforts are no longer valid or that the Jews do not retain their historical status as God's chosen people. Jesus made clear that the basic principles of God's law as found in the Law and the Prophets will remain in effect until the end of time:

          "17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

          Matthew 5:17-20

          • Trevor

            Jesus = God. Jews rejected Jesus ergo Jews rejected God.

            "Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

            John ch8 v47

            Jews who reject Jesus do not belong to God…But there's always hope that some will accept Jesus.

            And that goes for the rest of humanity too.

          • Loyal Achates

            So what about the Palestinian Christians? Do THEY have a right of return?

          • Texas Patriot

            "So what about the Palestinian Christians? Do THEY have a right of return?"

            So long as former residents do not deny that Israel has a right to exist, and so long as they do not believe that the land of Israel is Muslim land by right of conquest until the end of time, every effort should be made to accommodate them into the fabric of Israeli life, and I think that especially applies to Christians who, after all, are called to an even higher standard of holiness and perfection.

          • Trevor

            "t…. the land of Israel is Muslim land by right of conquest until the end of time"

            Isn't that the Jewish pov also?

          • Texas Patriot

            The Jewish POV is that God gave them the land. The Muslim POV is that Muslim armies conquered the land.

          • Trevor

            But Jews, with the exception of the 'Messianic' community don't believe in God. They believe in religious legalism.

          • reader

            Your are a fraud and here's why: Jesus for Christian is not the God, he is the son of God. In other words, Christians do not reject Judaism, they use Judaism as the foundation for their respective denominations. So, what you're doing here is called trolling. More sophisticated than most, but trolling nontheless. Get lost.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "But Jews, with the exception of the 'Messianic' community don't believe in God. They believe in religious legalism."

            Trevor believes in collectivism without any exceptions.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Isn't that the Jewish pov also?"

            No.

          • gee59

            Nobody has a "Right of Return". It is not a right and is illegal under international law

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Nobody has a "Right of Return". It is not a right and is illegal under international law"

            Precisely. Rights are guaranteed by sovereigns. Anyone unhappy with their "rights" need to talk to their sovereign.

            What about the "rights" of persecuted people everywhere? I am to worry about Mercedes and BMW driving "Palestinians" who want to implement global sharia with no legal basis, and this worries leftists more than all of the oppressed slaves called dhimmis and all females who are treated like property no matter where they live, increasingly even in the West when Western sovereigns deny them rights based on religion by favoring sharia to avoid hurting sensitive jihadi feelings?

            Go get stuffed you psychopathic anti-Zionists. Really. Just go to Hades. All of you. If I had my way, Israel would rule the whole region and enforce the laws that lead to Western definitions of peace before leftists took over.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "So what about the Palestinian Christians? Do THEY have a right of return?"

            All citizens have a right to return. Just like any other nation.

          • Gee59

            Only citizens of a country have right of return – non-citizens have no rights whatsoever in any country in the world

          • Texas Patriot

            Jesus also said not to judge others, lest we be judged. Given the fact that Jesus came to tell the ultra-orthodox Jews that they were not holy enough, that he was the son of God, and that unless they ate his body and drank his blood, they would not be saved, it is no wonder that they thought he was crazy and sent him to the Cross. See, e.g., John 6:53-59.

            From my perspective, it is all part of God's plan for saving the entirety of humanity. The Jews are still the Jews, and the Promised Land is still theirs until the end of time. Therefore, let them possess it and hold it, in accordance with God's laws, which have not been abolished even to this day. As you say, sooner or later perhaps more and more Jews will begin to accept the truth of Jesus Christ.

            In the meantime, there are plenty of problems for the rest of us to worry about.

          • Trevor

            Again i'll say it. Jews rejected Jesus. Jesus is God in human form ergo Jews rejected God.

            So how is it that a people who reject God [and by your words, sent him to the cross] can turn and claim God's promise when they have rejected said God and refuse to believe in him?

            Also, maybe you should check the clauses that are attached to God's promises. Basically all the clauses say that in order to take up Blessings one must believe in God and carry out his will. Jews, with the exception of the 'Messianic' community have failed to do God's will ie. Believe in the one he sent ergo they forfeit the promises/blessings.

          • stern

            to a believing Jew, Jesus did not fulfill the requirements of the Messiah, which means that he is a false prophet. You can believe in whatever you want, but how dare you tell me what I should believe in?

            The Torah is G0d's word and it cannot be changed by man – not any man, not even your Jesus. It's prophecies are increasingly coming true, and likewise, the true Moshiach will come one day. In the meantime, at least you have something to believe in.

          • Trevor

            Stern, named after a terrorist and wannabe Nazi collaborator, has declared God a false prophet.

            I rest my case as far as saying Jews don't believe in God…

          • stern

            Tell me, were you born this way, or was it a struggle to become such an a-hole?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Stern, named after a terrorist and wannabe Nazi collaborator, has declared God a false prophet."

            Anyone who rejects the messiah without reconciling before death will answer to God. They do not have to answer to Trevor. Unless Trevor is messiah?

          • Texas Patriot

            "to a believing Jew, Jesus did not fulfill the requirements of the Messiah, which means that he is a false prophet. You can believe in whatever you want, but how dare you tell me what I should believe in?

            The Torah is G0d's word and it cannot be changed by man – not any man, not even your Jesus. It's prophecies are increasingly coming true, and likewise, the true Moshiach will come one day. In the meantime, at least you have something to believe in."

            I think it's fine if Jews today cannot accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Either he was or he wasn't. If he wasn't, then all believing Christians are wrong. If he was, then all non-believing Jews are wrong. Either way, I think it's fine for Jews to occupy the entirety of the Promised Land as originally given to them by God, all the way from the Nile to the Euphrates, as a buffer between the perpetually warring tribes of descendants of Hagar and Ishmael. From a Christian perspective, we have the salvation we need through Jesus Christ, and it extends throughout all corners of the world.

          • stern

            Thank you, Texas Patriot. I do not criticize Xtians for believing that Jesus was Messiah. Nor do I claim that they are wrong. All I say is that a believing Jew, it would be wrong for ME to claim that Jesus was the Messiah. All I ask in return for respecting everybody else's right to believe whatever they want, is that they accord me the same respect in return.

            Trevor clearly has no respect for anyone but himself and his own ridiculously biased opinions. He is a pig.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Trevor clearly has no respect for anyone but himself and his own ridiculously biased opinions. He is a pig."

            It's worse. He has no mind of his own. He's been indoctrinated by God's enemies.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "All I say is that a believing Jew, it would be wrong for ME to claim that Jesus was the Messiah."

            It seems that way because there are beliefs you hold that seem to be in conflict. People all over the world are working on those conflicts in their own way and many will come to accept Jesus as Messiah.

            One of the most important Christian Jewish prophets was Saul of Tarsus who participated in the murder of Stephen (and became Paul after he accepted Jesus as Messiah). Trevor would have been attacking every last Jew the minute Stephen finished his final speech.

            Trevor acts like Saul but thinks he's Paul.

          • stern

            I have tried to be polite and to avoid telling others that I think their beliefs are wrong, but even so, you refuse me the same respect. I will not accept Jesus as messiah because he cannot possibly be Messiah. The Torah tells us that if a man claims to be a prophet and his prophecy does not come true, he is a false prophet. Jesus did not do what the Messiah is supposed to do, therefore he cannot be the Messiah.

            I refuse to debate this any further.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "I have tried to be polite and to avoid telling others that I think their beliefs are wrong, but even so, you refuse me the same respect."

            How did I disrespect you?

            "I will not accept Jesus as messiah because he cannot possibly be Messiah."

            I understand that, and I also understand it has nothing to do with me personally.

            "The Torah tells us that if a man claims to be a prophet and his prophecy does not come true, he is a false prophet. Jesus did not do what the Messiah is supposed to do, therefore he cannot be the Messiah."

            I totally understand your point, but I also know that most people don't see prophecy with an idea to fully investigate. They are biased by what they were taught. That's why sects exist everywhere even based on the same texts.

            If you believe that he spoke failed prophecy, then I'm pretty confident you aren't reading it with a mind to fully investigate. But I could be wrong, I just have to see the evidence before I take your word for it.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Again i'll say it. Jews rejected Jesus. Jesus is God in human form ergo Jews rejected God."

            Again i'll say it. people all over the world rejected Jesus. Jesus is God in human form ergo all people rejected God if all we consider are ideas from collectivism.

          • Drakken

            Rather interesting that you take up the cause of the muzzys against us westerners? Why is that ?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Rather interesting that you take up the cause of the muzzys against us westerners? Why is that ?"

            He's either a self-hating leftist "Christian" or he's an "Islamic Christian" (like 0'Bama) pretending to know the Bible when all he knows are those positions about the Bible that are useful for attacking Jews collectively. He's anti-justice, that's for sure.

            And he's an enemy of Western civilization.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Jesus = God. Jews rejected Jesus ergo Jews rejected God."

            Jesus = God. Individuals throughout humanity that rejected Jesus therefore rejected God. Jews too.

          • defcon 4

            Did Yeshua ever state he was G-d? Because I haven't come across any verses where he has done so.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Did Yeshua ever state he was G-d? Because I haven't come across any verses where he has done so."

            We're getting in to nuanced discussions about the Trinity which leads to what the text implies rather than what it states explicitly. But it's not unusual to say those that reject God's prophets reject God. Read it like that if you wish and then you decide on issues about the trinity and the messianic relationship between God, the Messiah and where you fit in.

            On the one hand, he's considered co-equal in authority and on the other hand it would be wrong to conflate or remove all distinctions. I didn't intend to do that. I was mimicking the speech pattern of someone who needs to think a bit more and it would be counterproductive to go down that road with him at this moment.

            I do admit I expected to be challenged on that point too, which doesn't bother me a bit. It's useful debate.

          • defcon 4

            Didn't Yeshua propose using the Lord's Prayer? It's hard to imagine he proposed a prayer to himself…

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Didn't Yeshua propose using the Lord's Prayer? It's hard to imagine he proposed a prayer to himself…"

            That's a common misconception. He said, "Pray in this form…" as an example.

            OTOH, he sure did pray to God while here on earth, you just didn't give a valid example. So the trinity is confusing. Jesus was not "the One God" in every form as understood previously. Christians understand God, Jesus and "The Holy Spirit" as 3…entities in a unified God. It's unprecedented so we can't be expected to explain everything, but it only contradicts previous perceptions, not previous texts. There are a number of theories that may ore may not be how God would have us understand but it seems God doesn't expect us to understand every detail of his constitution and existence.

            Some times I think Christians and others have worked against God by taking dogmatic stands that turn out to be wrong. This is taken as evidence that Christianity is false rather than evidence of someone with a big head and big mouth.

            He did say "I and the father are one." And there are other statements consistent with that. There are also other texts that essentially teach that only God can save, so who is the Messiah? Is the Messiah a mere prophet or something more? When we add it all up, we get a bundle of theories we generally call the Trinity. Also note that false dogmas have been presented under the rubric of "The Trinity."

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            West Pakistan is doomed.

          • EarlyBird

            Here's a probably naive Bible question which I've never really understood: the Old Testament refers to a savior who will come. The New Testatment states that is Jesus. Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.

            Would the New Testament still make sense without the Old Testament? How did the two get linked together, besides the obvious fact that both were written in the same general area by mostly (ethnic) Jews?

          • stern

            The messiah of the New Testament did not fulfill the promises of the Messiah of the Old Testament (there is still war, lions do not lie down with lambs, the world has yet to recognize that the G0d of the Jews is the one true G0d). So the only link between the Torah (OT) and the new testament is the one claimed by the new testament.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "The messiah of the New Testament did not fulfill the promises of the Messiah of the Old Testament (there is still war, lions do not lie down with lambs, the world has yet to recognize that the G0d of the Jews is the one true G0d). So the only link between the Torah (OT) and the new testament is the one claimed by the new testament."

            Therefore if the Messiah may only return once to fulfill all prophecies, he can't be Messiah. If he is not limited to one appearance, then the prophecies he did fulfill may be enough to identify him. Many of Moses's prophecies are not fulfilled but he is still considered a prophet. He met the minimum requirements with ease.

          • stern

            There is nothing about the Messiah returning. He will come once, fulfill his mission and have no need to come again.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "There is nothing about the Messiah returning."

            True.

            "He will come once, fulfill his mission and have no need to come again."

            How do you know he will come only once? And if you are correct then you're testifying to many other prophetic failures as well. Throw out the whole Bible then?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Would the New Testament still make sense without the Old Testament? "

            The New Testament on it's own would be viewed as a fairy tale. Why would you believe it? The NT refers to OT so…they aren't actually separate. It's only "new" in the sense that Jesus's arrival caused a major schism in the teachings of the Hebrew prophets. I don't know if it's even right to consider the distinction between "new" and "old" as important at all and certainly led to a lot of people who think they know Christianity but don't.

            The NT is pointless without the OT because it is not sufficient. God does not demand blind faith. He wants reasonable faith based on evidence. Blind faith can lead anywhere your indoctrination takes you. Reasonable faith asks you to make an effort to find evidence.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "Erm, with the exception of the 'Messianic' community, Jews rejected God when they rejected Jesus."

          Erm, with the exception of the 'Messianic' community, people rejected God when they rejected Jesus.

      • defcon 4

        "…eventually seek to destroy them."? "Eventually"? What have the last 70 years of unremitting islamofascist terrorism against Israel and Jews been?

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "The odd thing is that Jesus came to say that the Jews were not pure and holy enough, and that "If your virtue goes no deeper than the scribes and the pharisees, you will never get into the kingdom of heaven. The establishment of the Jewish State of Israel is a watershed moment for humanity, and particularly for Jews and Christians who believe that God is God, and God's law is God's law."

        Jesus came to say that no human is pure enough on their own merit. Many Jews know this too.

        • defcon 4

          I had thought Revelations has verses listing how many of each of the 12 tribes of Israel are saved. I had thought they were saved irregardless of whether they accepted Yeshua as their savior or not.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "I had thought Revelations has verses listing how many of each of the 12 tribes of Israel are saved. I had thought they were saved irregardless of whether they accepted Yeshua as their savior or not."

            Some say that. It's open for interpretation but taken as a whole I think there are simply various ways that people come to accept him. They can't reject him but only God knows who's done that at the time they are judged.

            The bottom line is that it's insane for Christians to attack Jews for "rejecting Jesus" either collectively or even individually because there are plenty of other people in the world, many supposed Christians, who also reject Jesus but just not in name. And that is one of the clear things that are reserved for God alone to judge (as a lost soul). Period. There is no controversy in that at all.

            We should contend with them as brethren with patience.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "It should be no surprise that the purity and holiness laws which form the core of Jewish identity are despised by mankind. Why? God is despised by mankind, and those who attempt to live in accordance with God's laws will of course be despised by mankind."

        This is essentially true. What makes the Jews in Israel even more important is that along with testifying to the validity of the Bible, they are now active participants by fulfilling prophecy to return to the land. That fact is not a sole justification for what they are doing, it's just a reason why so many God-haters have to emotionally reject them because it's just too much to face the fact that maybe there is a God with a will that they should have cared about. By demonizing Israel and Jews, they short-circuit any apparent need to see if God has any part of this.

        And there are also a lot of mindless dupes too.

  • Ken

    Poor Arabs with 22 countries.
    Remember the Arabs are invaders from Saudi Arabia.
    That's how they went from 1 country to 22 countries in the 7th century.

    • Loyal Achates

      Yes, because all Arabs are the same.

      Hey, white Christians have dozens of countries in Europe – why do they need so many?

      • defcon 4

        Islam, Arab imperialism. It's interesting how mendacious muslimes like you twist in the wind when anyone mentions the slaughter, coercion and colonization carried out not only in the blood drenched past of islam, but right now, in the present tense.

        • Loyal Achates

          Psst…I'm not a Muslim…

          • gee59

            Just as racist and stupid though

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            gee59 AKBAR!

          • Drakken

            You sure carry enough water for them, we have a word to describe folks like you, collaborators. Perhaps your aquainted with Quisling? Remember what happened to him?

          • Loyal Achates

            Are you acquainted with Mussolini? Remember what happened to HIM?

          • Drakken

            Side with the islamic savages, perish with them, it is that bloody simple.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Are you acquainted with Mussolini? Remember what happened to HIM?"

            Relevance? Did Mussolini meet his end by trying to talk sense to a bunch of dhimmi jihadi dupes? I don't think so.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            mussolini was a socialist – executed by Italians.

            osama bin laden was protected by islamofascists in pakistan.

            The first was Justice. The latter INJUSTICE.

          • Lan Astaslem

            you're just a muslim boot licker – almost as bad and simply pathetic

          • defcon 4

            Do you seriously think I believe you?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Psst…I'm not a Muslim…"

            You're a lot closer than you realize. You're a sharia-compliant dhimmi.

        • EarlyBird

          You should care more about American imperialism and how it has drained our national coffers, degraded our democracy at home and stunted our ability to compete abroad.

          My statement is of course relevant to this discussion, since underlying every article at FPM is a drum beat for an American invasion and occupation of Iran.

          • Drakken

            I don't want Iran occupied or invaded, I want it totally destroyed as a lesson to the other muzzy savages.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "You should care more about American imperialism…"

            Yes Barrack. We're so evil.

            Lies about "American Imperialism" have been very destructive. Why then are you helping perpetuate them?

            "My statement is of course relevant to this discussion, since underlying every article at FPM is a drum beat for an American invasion and occupation of Iran."

            EarlyBird: "I see dead people."

          • Mary Sue

            Invasion and occupation? not necessary

            Nuke it back to the stone age? Can be done with minimal effort.

          • Whateverman

            In other words, genocide…Sure thing…But the next day, if I were a jew, I would suddenly remember that Poland, Germany and Austria might be a great place this time of the century…

          • defcon 4

            Um, what did your fellow islamofascist brethren do in Armenia/Turkey, Sudan/Darfur, E. Timor and Bangladesh? For a muslime to be bleating about genocide is about as hypocritical as a nazi complaining about antisemitism.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Sadly for scum like you, the Israelis are NOT the unarmed Jews of WW2 europe.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "In other words, genocide…"

            Right. Didn't I just commit "cultural genocide" by disparaging sharia? Oh no.

          • Whateverman

            You commit brain genocide everytme you open your mouth….

          • defcon 4

            What would happen to anyone who publicly criticised islam in whatever islamofascist hellhole you crawled out of Ahmed? Would they be rewarded w/a scintillating and open-minded debate?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "You commit brain genocide everytme you open your mouth…."

            I knew you'd line up as victim again and again.

          • Mary Sue

            you're an idiot, that's for sure.

            No, not genocide. Just the nuking of the nuke plants and wherever those mullahs are hiding.

          • Omar

            EarlyBird, I am sick of you and other leftists constantly demonizing America's efforts to bring democracy and freedom to the world as American "imperialism". America is not an imperialist state at all and never will be. In fact, America was founded on the principles of anti-colonialism (anti-imperialism), democracy and freedom, when the thirteen colonies revolted against Britain's King George III (who leftists like you support, since George III supported anti-Americanism and mercantilism, which is similar to socialism). There is no American imperialism at all, but there is Russian imperialism, Chinese imperialism, Cuban imperialism, North Korean imperialism, Sudanese imperialism, "Palestinian" (invented people-Newt Gingrich is right) imperialism, Iranian imperialism, Communist imperialism and Islamist imperialism. Early Bird, you support all of the regimes mentioned above because you are an America-hating, democracy-hating, freedom-hating, totalitarian-loving Stalinist/Maoist who supports Islamist Sharia law. Bottom line: America has the best democracy in the world, while despotic regimes like Russia and China (both of which you support) are socialist totalitarian terrorist state that behave worse than the fascist regimes in Europe before World War II. Quit repeating leftist/Islamist lies and propaganda about America and learn from facts.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "Yes, because all Arabs are the same."

        It's not that they're all the same, but politically they are unified behind sharia under every sovereign in the region other than Israel.

        "Hey, white Christians have dozens of countries in Europe – why do they need so many?"

        It's their choice. Not only this but you can't compare European nations to sovereigns who use sharia as their de facto or literal constitution. If "Christians" went around acting like "Palestinians" they'd get the same level of support from me. Some "Christians' do help the jihad and I hate what they do too.

        But don't let any of the inconvenient facts interfere with your emotional attacks.

    • Whateverjew

      Poor jews…kicked out of every country they have lived in in the last 3000 years

      • Mary Sue

        racist.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "Poor jews…kicked out of every country they have lived in in the last 3000 years"

        Poor Satan worshiper, alive when they're able to fight back. Poor you.

  • Ken

    Read this great article where Elder destroys the lies of Abbu Sitta.
    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2005/10/atlas-th

  • theleastthreat

    For a long, long time, one leader or another has demonized the Jews, Even though nothing good has ever come of it, it continues, This university rally is the latest iteration. Maybe the human race didn't emerge from the Dark Ages as much as we thought. We just dress better.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "Maybe the human race didn't emerge from the Dark Ages as much as we thought. We just dress better."

      We have steel and electronics too.

  • Moishe Pupick

    W., 04/03/13

    The current State of Israel consists of only about 10% of The Land of Israel (Eretz Israel). All of the Jew haters get their panties in a bunch about this promise from G-d to Avraham. "From the Nile to the Euphrates"– Get used to it, all of you contemporary Amalekites.

    • Texas Patriot

      Israel needs to get tough. After 64 years of constant attacks by its neighbors, it's time to start imposing serious consequences for attacks of any kind. Under the laws of war, if you attack your neighbors and lose, your own territory is forfeited and confiscated by those you attack. Therefore, whenever there is a rocket attack from outside the territorial boundaries of Israel, the land from which the rocket attack took place should be forfeited and confiscated by Israel. In that way, it is highly likely that Israel will be able to reacquire all the land originally promised by God, from the Nile to the Euphrates, and Israel will then be able to fulfill its destiny as the peacekeeper between the warring descendants of Hagar and Ishmael. It's the only solution to the problem that has any chance of success.

      • Whateverman

        it all makes sense now, TP! The solution is to invade every country between the Nile (Egypt) and the Euphraetes (Irak). That would bring long lasting peace to the Middle East.
        I have always said that Texas has some of the most brilliant minds in the US, like George W or Rick Perry. And now you!

        • defcon 4

          Duh, like islamofascism is bringing any peace to anyone ANYWHERE else on this earth?

        • Texas Patriot

          Hahaha You really know how to hurt a guy. But relax. Israel won't have to attack anybody. Sooner or later all of the countries now occupying the original Promised Land will attack Israel. It's their religious duty to reclaim lands once conquered by Muslim armies, which includes the current state of Israel. All Israel has to do is counterattack and confiscate theland of the attackers and slowly but surely the entire Promised Land will be theirs.

          • Whateverjew

            At least you have a sense of humor. :-) i disagree on many level. Nuff said.

          • Texas Patriot

            Well, do you have any ideas that you think will work? Otherwise, God's plan of creating a permanent buffer between the Nile and the Euphrates is probably worth a try. Think of it this way. Shia on the north, Sunni on the south, and the Israelis in between. All are descendants of Abraham, and with the children of Sarah in the middle, maybe the children of Hagar will have a good reason to stop killing each other.

  • Ken Kelso

    Benny Morris destroys the lies of Abu Sitta. http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2005/10/atlas-th

  • Ken Kelso

    I googled Abu Sitta and this Jihadist is more crazier then i thought.
    This guy makes up quotes left and right.
    He probably takes his cue's from the Terrorstinians who made up the Jenin massacre Hoax in 2002.

    Here's the article.
    He claims Ben Gurion uses chemical weapons against the Arabs in the 48 war, which is a total lie.
    Sitta claims Israel spread cholera in Egypt and Syria in 1947/48. Another lie.
    Then he's quoting Victor Ostrovsky. Ostrovsky is a total nut job who claims Israel killed JFK and not Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Then Sitta is making up crazy comments that Ben Gurion wanted to exterminate the Arabs. More lies.
    As Elder told me, Sitta claims access to an ICRC document that documents all his accusations – but it is nowhere to be found. The UN puts it in a footnote – but "as quoted by" Abu Sitta. Unreal.
    Sitta is probably head writer for Pallywood.

    What people know is, Hajj Amin Al Husseini was in cahoots with Hitler to murder all the Jews. http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/38025-

    Nazis, Arabs planned Final Solution for pre-state Israel
    New study: Special SS squad formed for Jews of 'Palestine'
    Stan Goodenough
    April 2006

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "I googled Abu Sitta and this Jihadist is more crazier then i thought. This guy makes up quotes left and right."

      I jihadi lying? Whoa. What next?

  • Ken Kelso

    The 48 war was the was the result of the Palestinians together with their Arab allies to perform ethnic cleansing on the Jews and their failure to complete it.

    Every single Jew in the parts of the Mandate seized by the Arabs was expelled from their homes. No exceptions. They even dynamited the entire ancient Jewish quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem in an attempt to wipe out the history of Jewish residence there. They also made it illegal for a Jew to live in the areas of the former Mandate that they controlled, including East Jerusalem, West Bank, Gaza and Jordan.
    850,000 Jews were also forced from the Arab countries.

    After the 5 Arab armies attacked Israel in 48, Hajj Amin Al Husseini stated:
    I declare a holy war, my muslim brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!
    The Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha declared “a holy war. He said, “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.

    • defcon 4

      "A war of extermination" isn't ethnic cleansing, it's genocide.

  • Whateverman

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21631427
    Wait, jews can go back to a land where they have been expelled 500 years ago, but Palestinians who suffered the same 75 years, can't?
    The only people that belong in Palestine/Israel are those where there at the turn of the century and their descendants.
    Those Eastern European jews,(pole, lithuanian, russian) , savage, barbaric , disgusting, greedy jews should go back to their to Minks, Vilnius and Krakow, where they belong.
    But they are still hated there.
    No one knows the evil that these people have wrought than the innocent native people of those land

    • reader

      "No one knows the evil that these people have wrought than the innocent native people of those land"

      Your link says "sefardic Jews are invited back to Spain" – supposedly by the native people of that land. How does it work in your head exactly? Scratch that. I should address another question to your ward nurse, "why is this troll not given his meds on time?"

      • objectivefactsmatter

        "why is this troll not given his meds on time?"

        It's got to be a right wing conspiracy. A vast one too.

      • Whateverman

        You might be a "reader", but not certainly not "understander". the irony escaped you…the Spaniards, a civilized and decent people, right a wrong that happened 500 years ago.(Who was in power before that, btw) The jews, who deny the Palestinians the right of return, enthusiastically accept the invitation…

        • reader

          Right. Only the invitation has nothing to do with the fraudulent "right of return." It is obviously based on the assumption that the Jews are not belligerent toward Spain and will not affect demographics, nor political and economic landscape in any negative way. None of this is applicable to Israel and the “Palestinian” Arabs.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "Wait, jews can go back to a land where they have been expelled 500 years ago, but Palestinians who suffered the same 75 years, can't? "

      If they follow rule of law they can. They have to build a legitimate sovereign and follow the same process. Maybe it takes 500 years to accomplish. Amazing how complex the real world can be.

      "The only people that belong in Palestine/Israel are those where there at the turn of the century and their descendants."

      Aha. A universal principal applied everywhere huh?

      Whatever man.

      "No one knows the evil that these people have wrought than the innocent native people of those land"

      Yeah right. Whatever.

    • Drakken

      Your fakestinian muzzy frirnds deserve everything they get and more, effem. The fact that you openly side with them, makes you an enemy of us all, traitor. Oh your sympathy for a bunch of effing savages is really touching.

    • Mary Sue

      You racist.

      • Whateverman

        Do you mean Drakken or me?

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          You, Whateverfascist.

          • Whateverman

            What?!?!Really ???me? She never read Drakkens posts? or is it because she agrees with him?

          • Mary Sue

            Drakken isn't racist. You're an unthinking racist who is critical of all the jews all the time. Islam is not a race.

        • Mary Sue

          YOU.

    • defcon 4

      Just because Arabic muslimes stole the land from the Roman thieves who stole it from the Jews who had lived their for millenia doesn't give them rights to it. Stolen property always reverts to its rightful owner, and it wasn't muslimes who built Jerusalem.

      • Whateverman

        Why stop suddenly there? "Arabic muslimes stole the land from the Roman thieves who stole it from the Jews"…who stole it from who? there is a passing reference to that in the Bible, if I remember correctly. And can you also tell me how they obtain that land, who they had to murder, supposedly under order from God (like Son of Sam).

        • reader

          Good exercize in incoherent speech. So, where in this maze of nonsense did you find the "right of return"?

          • Whateverman

            The same place where someone can claim that he is entitled to go back to israel because supposedly his ancestors used to dwell there 3000 years and with the Ancient Testament as a real estate document signed by God Himself.

          • reader

            Conjecture. The Partition had nothing to do with the right of return. You're floundering. By the way, the Arabs stole the land owned by the Jews in Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. Give it back.

          • Whateverman

            Objection. Wherever Jews lived doesn't mean the land belongs to them. By that logic, in 2000 years, you will. claim all of Europe, New York and Florida. That's jew talk for you. besides, jews have been living in those lands for millennia until 1948. I wonder why? Why indeed¿ What happened in 1948?

          • reader

            "Wherever Jews lived doesn't mean the land belongs to them."

            I see. You insist on enforcing Nuremberg laws. Here's my Jew talk: next time you're in Germany, keep your rotten mouth shut, or you'll be arrested and put away for nazi propaganda. As they should, you pitiful nazi troll.

          • Whateverman

            Laws forced by the victor on the vanquished don`t hold a lot of weight in the face of history.
            Germans used to be a great and mighty people. great civilization has an end ergo… Drakken…What a schande…

          • defcon 4

            What hypocrisy, islamofascism was spread by the sword and conquest, today as well as in the blood drenched past of islam.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "Objection. Wherever Jews lived doesn't mean the land belongs to them. By that logic, in 2000 years, you will. claim all of Europe, New York and Florida. "

            The Jews have the oldest valid claim for Israel, and the claim based on continuous cultural presence. They were never displaced by a local sovereign but instead were ruled by imperial rulers.

            OK? The land NEVER HAD any other sovereign local to the people living there. Muslims lived there and ruled via imperial rulers. Israel is the only true national movement associated with that land. EVER.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            "..besides, jews have been living in those lands for millennia until 1948. I wonder why? Why indeed¿ What happened in 1948?"

            You want us to read you in to history in a comments section? The Turkish Empire was rolled back and therefore so was sharia. The new sovereigns decided that forming independent sovereign nations was the only legitimate form of rule.

            If not for oil and Arab jihadi perfidy and political double-crossing, Israel should have been reconstituted even before the other nations were granted their various constitutions.

            Israel is the victim and the Arab jihadis are culpable for all of it. And you can make allowances for sellouts and dupes too.

            "What happened in 1948?"

            The USA dropped in a bunch of Jewish commandos on their jet packs and sent innocent Muslims scurrying and now we have our 27th colony in the region.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          Son of Sam AKA mohammed.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          "Why stop suddenly there? "Arabic muslimes stole the land from the Roman thieves who stole it from the Jews"…who stole it from who? there is a passing reference to that in the Bible, if I remember correctly. And can you also tell me how they obtain that land, who they had to murder, supposedly under order from God (like Son of Sam)."

          The Jews have the oldest valid claim, and the claim based on continuous cultural presence. They were never displaced by a local sovereign but instead were ruled by imperial rulers.

          OK? The land NEVER HAD any other sovereign local to the people living there. Muslims lived there and ruled via imperial rulers. Israel is the only true national movement associated with that land. EVER.

          But just simplify everything and then play dumb, then use a pseudonym like "whatever man" and all your arguments will make sense to other retreads.

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      arab savages who call themselves "paleswinians" can all go to HELL.

      Remember US Senator Robert F. Kennedy.

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      WhateverSHlTler,

      Happy ETERNAL NAKBA!

      When you get to HELL, say for me to osama bin laden!

      • SCREW SOCIALISM

        say HI to osama bin laden for me.

  • Omar

    Whateverman and EarlyBird are obviously agents paid by China and Iran.

    • Whateverman

      .how come your name is Omar, fool?

      • objectivefactsmatter

        ".how come your name is Omar, fool?"

        Unlike you, he was born to parents who named him.

      • Omar

        How come you're a paid agent of despotic regimes like China, Iran and their allies, fool?

  • Whateverjew

    Drakken, everyone i whoop your assets,your boy the admin deleted my posts..cannot. say i blame him. you can't. take care of yourself, ladyboy!

    • objectivefactsmatter

      "Drakken, everyone i whoop your assets,your boy the admin deleted my posts..cannot. say i blame him. you can't. take care of yourself, ladyboy!"

      What percentage of your waking hours are you drunk on average?