Opposing Illegal Immigrant Warehousing Is ‘Racist’?

immigration-secure-border.jpeg7-1280x960Last June, community outrage forced the federal government to cancel plans to house hundreds of illegal alien children at a closed college in Lawrenceville, VA. A complaint filed by St. Paul’s College and nonprofit Housing Opportunities Made Equal (HOME) of Virginia with the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) alleges the move was racially motivated. Both entities also filed a separate complaint against the Health and Human Services Department (HHS) for canceling the lease, citing another alleged violation of anti-discrimination laws. “No one should block someone’s housing opportunity based on race or national origin,” said Helen O’Beirne Hardiman, fair housing director for HOME. “It’s unfair, and it’s completely illegal for government officials to step in to a private deal and say we don’t want Central American children coming to this community.”

Make that illegal alien Central American children who were part of the nine-month border border-busting surge that began last October. Approximately 66,000 Unaccompanied Alien Children (UACs) were detained by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). HHS has released 37,000 of them to relatives and guardians in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. The rest have been left in 116 temporary shelters in 16 states. The reason for the scope of the dispersal became obvious last Friday, when the Associated Press reported that 70 percent of illegal aliens families released, never showed up for their scheduled follow-up appointments.

Since this manufactured crisis has been occurring—and there is no other way to described the wholesale and willful abandonment of border security by the Obama administration–the feds have been under enormous pressure to find shelters for the thousands of children they were unable to place. At the suggestion of Virginia Secretary of Health and Human Resources Bill Hazel and Secretary of Education Anne Holton, they pursued a deal with St. Paul’s College, which stood to receive $160,000 a month to house approximately 500 children, mostly males age 15 to 17, at the facility.

College President Millard Stith was enthused by the prospect, and claims town and county officials whom he alerted gave him no indication they would resist it. “This is like manna from heaven,” he told the Washington Times. “I’m walking around with my chest sticking out, because I’m saying me and my partners in the county and town are going to be benefitting from this project. Silly me.”

Hope for the hefty payout was dashed by the other entity involved in this equation — namely, the people of Lawrenceville. Nearly 1,000 of the town’s total population of 1,300 showed up at a town hall meeting on June 19, and the overwhelming majority made it vehemently clear they were opposed to the deal. They expressed concerns ranging from disease and crime, to government overreach and the Obama administrations’s misguided spending policies. They were also angered that the ostensible deal had been orchestrated without their knowledge.

Brunswick County Sheriff Brian Roberts echoed that concern. “I was just shocked,” he said at the time. “The way this process has been handled puts more fear in our eyes, because it’s been shoved down our throat.” At the meeting, Kenneth Tota with the Office for Refugee Resettlement admitted as much. “We do apologize for the fact that you heard about this project too far along,” he told the crowd.

A day after the meeting the feds backed down. “We have heard the concerns of many of the residents and leaders of Lawrenceville about the proposal to temporarily care for unaccompanied children at the now-closed Saint Paul’s College. We have taken this proposal off the table and will move on quickly to identify other sites to temporarily house these vulnerable children,” HHS said in statement. Virginia Democratic Senator Mark Warner said HHS made the right decision. “Collaboration and local support is absolutely key for the success of a project like this,” he contended.

The twin lawsuits make it clear that collaboration and local support are irrelevant when there’s an agenda that must be served. In the complaint filed with HUD, the plaintiffs allege that elected and employed officials of the town of Lawrenceville and Brunswick County “orchestrated and implemented a plan to block the deal. Purported concerns by these individuals are grounded in false stereotypes about Latinos and reflect discrimination based on race, color, creed and/or national origin,” the complaint states.

Sheriff Roberts was singled out for “discriminatory statements,” because he told the media, “There is this negative perception of gang violence—these people are coming from Central America.” The townspeople were accused of making statements that were “facially discriminatory” and of using “thinly veiled coded language” to express animus towards national origin.

Hardiman pushed the envelope even further. Despite the reality that there was no vote on the project by local officials, she contends their vocal influence with regard to the eventual outcome is sufficient to pursue the complaint. “The officials really organized the backlash and they provided this platform for townspeople to voice their opposition. And, ultimately, I think that the officials are really responsible for the deal being squashed,” she told Watchdog.org. She also claimed that documents HOME procured under the Freedom of Information Act indicate officials stirred up the residents’ resistance via “unofficial actions behind the scenes.”

Roberts wasn’t buying it. He believes the complaint has “zero merit” and College President Stith is “just grasping for anything to create controversy.” He further insisted that everyone “has a constitutional right to have an opinion and express a position,” and that issues of race “never came up until this complaint.” He once again pointed his finger at the feds. “That whole fiasco was really the federal government and just pure mishandling,” he contended. “Lack of communication, lack of transparency, lack of consistency. Everything was a train wreck.”

Stith put out a press release stating the school had been “severely injured” by the failure to procure a deal. Yet the historically black college founded in 1888 filed for bankruptcy in June 2013, following the failure of a deal that would have allowed Saint Augustine’s College in Raleigh, N.C. to acquire it. According to the New Pittsburgh Courier, the deal “collapsed under the weight of Saint Paul’s debt.” Stith apparently believes he’s entitled to a taxpayer-funded windfall to give the college “the much-needed funding to complete necessary improvements to the campus and repay creditors,” the statement added.

Hardiman claims the children who were never sheltered at St. Paul’s were also “dramatically injured,” and that HHS should reconsider the deal “to prevent further injury, if possible.” She also issued a warning to other localities who might have the temerity to resist having illegal alien shelters imposed upon them, insisting these complaints serve as a lesson in that regard. “We want municipalities to know that they can’t step in and block housing opportunities for people based on their race, color and national origin,” she said.

According to HUD, the Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination “in the sale, rental and financing of dwellings, and in other housing-related transactions based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status and disability. Such discrimination is illegal regardless of the victim’s immigration status.” Furthermore, HUD “does not inquire about immigration status when investigating claims of housing discrimination.”

In this case, the immigration status is a known quantity. All that remains to be seen is whether legitimate concerns of people exercising their First Amendment rights in various incarnations at a town hall meeting can be construed as “racial discrimination.” It also remains to be seen if the Obama administration is now willing to pursue a policy of imposing illegal alien shelters wherever they choose, whether local residents want them or not.

Lawrenceville Mayor William H. Herrington wants to reserve comment on the complaint until he is officially served with it. But he had no problem with the town hall meeting that scuttled the deal. “We do live in America,” he explained. It is an America where border security is virtually non-existent, and illegal aliens apparently have the right to be sheltered at taxpayer expense in locations contrary to the wishes of citizens who inhabit them — lest they be threatened with litigation. “America In Name Only” may be closer to the truth.

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  • http://johnnyangeladvocacygroup.net JohnnyAngel Advocacy Group

    United SOVIETS of Amexico struttin’ their stuff again. Would communists shoot you ?

  • motherartist

    In my town of Santa Cruz, California a mural of the Mexican Catholic religious symbol of The Virgin of Guadalupe is a mural as public art in a public park

  • http://raycaruso.com Ray Caruso

    Helen O’Beirne Hardiman and Millard “Pete” Stith are now on the list.

    • Pete

      They are on the list to shun.

      They are on the list to not hire.

      They are on the list; if they have a flat tire in a bad neighborhood to keep on driving.

      They are on a lot of lists.

      People like Helen O’Beirne Hardiman and Millard “Pete” Stith can do more damage with their good acts than a robber or a murderer can doe with this bad acts.

      • http://raycaruso.com Ray Caruso

        I think we’re getting close to the time when Americans will take this country back. When that happens, individuals who presently strive to destroy America and dispossess the American people, and for that very reason are respected members of society under the liberal regime, will have to answer for their actions. That’s the list.

        • Pete

          I know what list you mean.

          My mind is blank. There are no plans. Nothing. It turns on a dime.

        • laura r

          too late

  • EmpressL

    They are blocking them because they are illegal and unattended and it costs about $30,000 a year to raise a child for 13 years is about $400,000 a piece that comes off of property tax, local tax- mostly with a LITTLE from state tax and federal. 10 kids is $4,000,000. That’s without any HEALTH problems or additional pregnancies which cost about (pre-post natal & 3 day hospital stay) an added $18,000 plus now the support of that child. at least 1/2 will have children and 53% of Hispanic women have illegitimate births
    http://www.pewresearch.org/dai

    They profile themselves as a race: 41% of native born Latinos believe that unauthorized immigrants come to the US to have babies.
    http://www.pewhispanic.org/201

    Hispanics represent 16% of the US population but are responsible for 1/2 the US growth
    http://www.pewhispanic.org/201

    53% of Hispanic women have illegitimate births
    http://www.pewresearch.org/dai

    Welfare use by Immigrant Households with Children. States where the immigrant households with children have the highest use rates are Arizona (62%) Texas, California and New York (61%) each and Pennsylvania(59%).The study focused on eight major welfare programs that cost the government $517 billion the year they were examined.
    http://cis.org/immigrant-welfa

    Murder Rate for Hispanics Is Twice the Murder Rate for Whites
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/murder-rate-for-hispanics_b_5309973.html

  • Pete

    “No one should block someone’s housing opportunity based on race or national origin,” said Helen O’Beirne Hardiman, fair housing director for HOME.”

    Correct!

    But we should be able to block it bases on legal entry and or unknown health status of communicable diseases.

    Helen O’Beirne Hardiman is one of the people ruining America.

    Her life’s work will be a net loss for America.

  • Pete

    You can check their ages with 2 or 3 years or so. You do any analysis of the bone or something. It is slow and costly.

    I have seen where Roma said they were teenagers and they were actually 20-somethings. A bone test was used.

    So you average liberal troll will admit there is a test, say it is too expensive and then turnaround and tell you that it is cheaper to keep this kids.

  • wileyvet

    “It’s unfair, and it’s completely illegal for government officials to step in to a private deal and say we don’t want Central American children coming to this community.”
    No, it’s completely illegal to enter the United States the way they have. And note the key word “unfair”. More leftist clap trap. Perhaps if these dopes hadn’t been so supportive of Central American Marxist regimes, those countries wouldn’t be economic basket cases and cultural crap heaps. Now that they are, apparently America is supposed to be one giant flop house for people fleeing the Commie paradises that these same leftist helped create in the first place.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    Common sense is racist!

  • Lorilu

    I would be opposed to any group of illegal aliens being housed in my town, but especially males 15-17 years old. Adding a group of “hundreds” of males to a small town (or any town) is bound to cause problems. As others have said, there is no proof they are that age, and certainly no proof of whom they are.

  • Bob Sten

    Racial double standards are the RULE in the west. Willie Brown said “I don’t care about your stupid white kids” to a white voter concerned about affirmative action, and guess what happened to him…nothing!

    Eric holder was fine with applying the law differently to minorities and whites, and he was in the highest legal position in the US……and everyone lets him skate.

    Twelve black guys beat a white motorist into a coma in detroit, causing him permanent brain damage, and the mayor, eric holder, obummer, jesse jackson, sharpton, and the rest of the self appointed “racially sensitive” say nothing……..

    There is no such thing as racism eric…..there is just tribalism. It’s OK if minorities are tribal, but the minute whites say something tribal, we are all conditioned to freak out over it.

    It’s mind control….nothing less. Stop being a lemming or these double standards will persist forever.

  • Bob Sten

    There is no such thing as racism.

    There is only tribalism, and all groups around the world practice it.

    When whites are in power, they tend to promote other whites.

    When blacks are in power, they tend to promote other blacks.

    When mexicans are in power, they tend to promote other mexicans.

    When jewish people are in power, they tend to promote other jews…..and anyone non-white (most left wing jews have this multi-generational pathological hatred of europeans of christian background aka white people).

    All groups tend to promote their own. It is genetically adaptive. Over time, those groups that don’t do this get erased by the groups that do it. Yet effeminate white liberals pretend it isn’t so.

    So delusional.

  • Bob Sten

    Mexicans would NEVER allow millions of blacks to immigrate to Mexico.

    Yet America does.

    So, who exactly is “racist” again?

    Talk about hypocrites.

    • Pragmatic Squirrel

      Selfish racist troll:

      1) No response to my calling out your hypocrisy for identifying as “white” while being Native American
      2) No response to my calling out your casual bigotry against the mentally challenged, re “Tard” littered across your posts, nor your casual bigotry in language (“Heeb”, “Jew Boy”, etc.). NOT TRIBALISM. BIGOTRY and RACISM and CONTEMPT.
      3) No response to how incredibly selfish all of your posts are
      4) Completely ignored any facts I posted about blacks having a worse hand dealt to them than any other “race” (ie pigmentation). You’re just happy to not give a s hit about other “tribes” plights, and only care about YOU.

      5) Continuously attack me for being “anti-white” when I have said nothing against whites. I have condemned Individuals, and racist american (and global) culture – which infects all “races.”
      6) Continuously attack me for not being “anti-Jew” enough, when, again, I am not “Anti” any group, including whites.
      7) Continuous whining about how “whites” bear the brunt of the cost of other (non white) tribes’s tribalism
      8) Sad, childish need to call me “effeminate” as if that was an insult.

      Let’s see, you ignored 1-4. So I’ll just ignore 5-8.

      From a practical standpoint – blacks have it worse than other races, including you. They have been systematically murdered, robbed of wealth, raped, and oppressed. You ignore that. You don’t care. You’re a selfish troll – “BUT WHAT ABOUT MEEEEEEEEEEE?!?!” Also a hypocrite who embraces white culture but ignores what “whites” did to your Native American ancestors.

      This anti black racism continues to happen. Blacks have the s..hittiest hand dealt them. It’s not the “fault” of “all whites” or any specific group. But every other group could recognize that blacks have been dealt a worse hand, and we could be attempting to address that.

      Examples:

      Police re-training: stop shooting black kids with no cause. Red-lining payback: a program to address the massive wealth stolen from blacks through predatory lending driven by government policies that denied them federally backed mortgages based on race. Jim Crow payback: restitution for decades of anti black laws, legalized theft, and racist enforcement/ non enforcement of laws. Racially discriminatory (anti black) hiring (proven by dozens of studies) re-balancing: Incentives to hire minorities.

      And the root of the problem, and our collective lethargy about addressing it, is driven by people like you – who are willing to use racial slurs despite how small minded and ugly it makes you look, and who selfishly say “WHAT ABOUT ME???? WAH WAH WAH I HAVE IT SO HARD!” And who ignore the much much larger practical problems that blacks face and have faced, every day, for centuries.

      Blacks have had it the s_hittiest. They continue to have it the s_hittiest. I think that should be changed. Your “white problems” and general “white problems” are lesser, in this country, along with Jewish, Asian, etc. problems. Along with my problems.

      Blacks have it worst, and should be addressed first. Period. Full stop.

      • Bob Sten

        Pragtard,

        My post about blacks having it “worst” was deleted by web censors. I’ll try to tweak it and resend tomorrow.

    • Pragmatic Squirrel

      Troll,

      1) You used bigoted words (heeb, jew boy, tard, and most recently, n****ger). I did not. Your response is “you are too, neener neener neener”. Good job, you have the debating skills of a 4th grader. Sorry to take your troll candy, but this is not even approaching a coherent point. Fail.

      2) If groups engage in actively disparaging other groups (ie Buddhists in Myanmar engaging in anti- Muslim violence), then yes, they are showing selfishness and bigotry. I already addressed this, and there is no hypocrisy. You apparently forgot. 0 for 2, troll.

      3) FBI stats are driven by eyewitness reports. Eyewitness reports are insanely biased and inaccurate, as has been proven in a number of studies. Even still, many, many blacks have been falsely arrested, convicted, and imprisoned – and then later released (based on DNA evidence, etc. – see the Innocence Project). This has been shown to overwhelmingly affect blacks, to the point that “eyewitness reports” are clearly fundamentally biased, and have led to stats, arrests, and convictions all being skewed. Also, several studies have shown that when arrested for the same crime, with similar evidence/ circumstances, blacks are far more likely to be convicted than whites. There is also a huge missing stat – kills BY police of innocent blacks. They don’t bother to track this, despite federal mandate. Cops don’t track civilian kills at all. Period. There is no huge “conspiracy” here. Just garden variety systemic racism, laziness, and selfishness. They track what is easy and what makes them look good. People believe what they have always believed – regardless of evidence to the contrary. A recent study shows exactly this – presenting anyone, lib or con, with facts that clearly deny their beliefs, results in….. them doubling down on those beliefs, and ignoring the facts. People are stubborn, and biased. There are strong beliefs in this country that disparage blacks. Those beliefs drive the stats, far more than reality.

      That’s 0 for 3 on your side.

      Your points:

      1) I never said “whites” were racist. I called out: slaveowners, racism as a general culture problem (regardless of source), and… You. I agreed that any group attacking another group (including “anti-white” groups) on the basis of “race” is racist. I already said this, you didn’t bother to read it. Wrong. 0 for 4

      2) I did respond to this. No difference with you offering me $500 to walk into Compton than me offering you $500 to walk into Ulster circa 1980′s. Or Afghanistan, Libya, Venezuela, East Germany (pre-wall), Yugoslavia, etc. etc. I don’t need the $500, and I have no interest in walking into a violent dangerous place (if that’s what Compton is), regardless of race. I’m happy to walk through black neighborhoods, and I actually have spent significant time in “black” neighborhoods. No problem with them. It’s not racial. If you walk into a place of poverty and violence, you might encounter poverty and violence. Not sure how you missed this – but I responded, and again, you’re wrong. 0 for 5.

      3) Our culture doesn’t have a 400 year history of forcibly importing Indians and Asians for slave labor. Indians there was genocide, and then relegation to “native” land, and then casinos. Asians were not enslaved en masse. They worked on the railroad, but many died or left,and were never enslaved. They were not the workhouse of the south. We do have this history of mass enslavement with blacks. We didn’t run ships to Asia with the purpose of capturing slaves to bring back to America. We didn’t fight a civil war over the emancipation of Asians and Indians. There was no mass, national segregation of Indians and Asians. This is about as false a false equivalence as you could erect. It’s a flimsy strawman, and it ignores reality. Why Don’t Police Target Italians?!?! Why Don’t They Target the Irish?!?! Why Not Fairy Armadillos?!? You can ignore reality all you like, but your debating skills are still around 4th grade level. 0 for 6.

      4) I am not here to justify police behavior. Sure, anti-white hate crimes should be classified as such. 0 for 7.

      5) Rape – you have not actually offered any stats or sources, just a vague claim. You are wrong. Lifetime likelihood of rape for a white women is 17.7%, black woman 18.8%. The majority of rapes (~65-73%, depending on the study) occur by someone known by the victim. Rape is a function of misogyny between a man and a women he knows. “Unknown” rapist proportions roughly match actual demographics, with no skewing towards any race. The problem of rape has nothing to do with race. Also, the vast majority of rapes are not reported. In general, well over 60% are never reported – with black women, it’s more like 93% (roughly 1/16 of raped black women actually report their rape to authorities). Strong correlation of non-reporting (across all “races”) with beliefs that: perpetrator will not be punished, victim will be shamed, perpetrator is in a perceived position of power over the victim. All of which also correlate strongly with being a black woman.

      0 for 8.

      6) I am talking about racism, not genocide. False equivalence, troll.

      That’s 0 for 9.

      Genetics – I posted a series of non-controversial, peer reviewed studies that clearly supported my point. You vaguely mentioned your idol, disgraced Kevin MacDonald, and a single geneticist that you unearthed with no actual referenced study. And Cavalli Sforza’s work “challenges the assumption that there are significant genetic differences between human races, and indeed, the idea that ‘race’ has any useful biological meaning at all” according to a feature of him by the Economist. Not sure what you’re pointing to, but this guy sure sounds like he agrees with me.

      0/10

      If genetics do not correlate with “race” then genetics cannot be the root cause for “racial” problems. If you can’t get from a to b, and question whether 1 + 1 = 2, don’t blame me for your ineptitude.

      0/11

      I don’t excuse any behaviors today. If a black individual murders/ rapes someone, they should go to jail like anyone else. However, if a white kid is caught with pot, he should go to jail just like his black counterpart. That doesn’t happen – whites have been shown to do more drugs, and have more drugs, than blacks, and yet blacks go to jail at an insanely higher rate, for… drugs. And if there are English alive who have benefited from government supported racism against Irish in the recent past (like red-lining and Jim Crow in the US), then yes, the Irish they stole from should be repaid. It’s no difference than if your neighbor cheats you/ robs you, and the law permits it, because he is “an aristocrat” or “a landowner” or “a man.” That’s what happened in the US, and there were dozens of lawsuits brought by blacks about red-lining. The courts dismissed them, in many cases, with literally no justification or rational. They didn’t need to – blacks had no power, and the federal government was clearly endorsing racism and backing the courts. Blacks had no recourse, and gave up. The system failed them, as did rule of law.

      0/12

      Do I even keep going? You make no intelligent points. The rest of your post… TL;DR. Just more incoherent ramblings.

      You don’t even know what red-lining is – or you might have actually responded to it. You act like Jim Crow never happened, and that there aren’t many people alive who it directly impacted, with lost money and family members.

      You keep making the insane point that by attacking “racism” I am attacking “whites” – which is a telling connection. I never connected “racism” with “whites”. You did, troll.

      You don’t have to defend your worldview to me, or anyone. Indeed, I said – go on, continue to be a fear-based, racist, bigoted, hateful troll. That’s the beauty of our country. You can do that, you can go be you. It won’t lead to happiness, or success, just more fear and hate and misery. And I can continue to identify your trolling as trolling, pointing out where you are wrong, insane, fearful, hateful, wrong, stupid, bigoted, wrong, and a troll. Also wrong. We’re both free to do that, and I’m actually glad for that fact. Enjoy your freedom to be a troll, and choose to live in your hate filled cave.

      Toodles, troll!

      • Bob Sten

        pragtard,

        Don’t have the time to go through your ceaseless whining and complaining right now.

        But, since you’re such an angry guy, so personally offended by the failures of black people, let me just cut to the chase.

        You are real riled up because of what you see as alleged gross and omnipresent “injustice”. How this personally impacts you, I just cannot see. Anyhow…

        I just want to know how you would solve this problem. How do you solve the problem of black failure in america? Do you think all whites today owe blacks? Only 7% of whites owned slaves when it was legal. So do all whites owe black people of today, or only those 7% of people that had ancestors that were slave owners?

        Also, you say those that “benefited” from slavery. Let’s say you had an ancestor that owned slaves, but now you are homeless. Do you still own slaves because at some point in time, someone in your family owned slaves? How is someone like this to pay?

        I am just not understanding if this is just about reparations, or do you want cops to ignore crimes committed by blacks in the interest of “equality”? Both?

        What EXACTLY do you want? And, if you got exactly what you want and blacks still continued to fail in america, what would we should we do then?

        You have all the answers pragtard so shoot. Please describe your bias-free utopia for me.

        • Pragmatic Squirrel

          Convenient- a dozen points, you’re wrong on every single one, your stats are a fantasy, and you can’t even quote the right geneticist to support your racial claims.

          But after pages and pages of blather, suddenly, “you dont have time”.

          I call BS. You don’t have the balls to admit you’re wrong. I’ll address your ” solution” question when you can stand up and admit you’re wrong. I have suggestions (plenty of ideas that are common and not even mine)
          - you’re just not worth sharing those with when all you can do is troll.

          • Bob Sten

            Pragtard,

            In other words, you have no solution. You just like to whine and complain. That’s what I thought.

            I can refute your lies 1000x, it’s just that you won’t accept any data unless it comes from a left wing think tank.

            If you won’t even accept FBI stats or stats from the CDC, I don’t think you believe in anything….again, unless it’s data from some left wing group with an agenda.

            So again, what’s the point of me pointing out the facts if you disregard everything that’s inconvenient to your position?

            So, I won’t quite say I’m wrong, but I am willing to say you refuse to see reality for what it is.

            So, your solution?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            No. You are not worth having the discussion of solutions based on your denial of reality.

            The only “facts” you pointed out are the FBI stats on homicides by blacks.

            Stats/ facts you’ve ignored:

            Rates of white drug use vs blacks, and drug arrest rates of whites vs blacks, and incarceration of whites vs blacks, and the Impact on a non violent 15 year old who spends 5 years in prison for possessing pot or crack (compared to the equivalent white, who gets probation).

            All the real rape stats I presented, and your complete lack of actual stats to back your lies.

            The complete lack of correlation between “race” and genetics, and the fact that the guy You quoted to support your nutsy theory… Actually agreed with me.

            The facts about red lining and Jim Crow, and the massive theft of wealth that was completely ignored and/or supported by various levels of government.

            The fact that you constantly use racist, bigoted language, I don’t, and you somehow claim that I’m the “bigoted” one shows your violent disconnection with reality.

            The fact that I DONT HATE WHITES. Or any “race.” I denounce the fundamental belief structures that drive racism. You hate people based on race. Not me, troll. (except maybe trolls. Are trolls a “race”? Discuss!)

            There are plenty of solutions to propose. But to what “problem”? The only problem you see is that YOU DONT GET ENOUGH AND MINORITIES AND JEWS ARE TAKING IT ALL FROM YOU.

            There is no solution to the ” problem” of your unquenchable selfishness. That’s your problem.

            Solutions to massive wealth inequality, racism, recent theft of wealth and life based on racist laws and governmental practices? Yes, lots of solutions.

            But you don’t even seen those as problems, so why on earth would I discuss “solutions” with you to problems you deny exist?

            Admit that you flat out LIED about rape states, LIED about the geneticist, and LIED about me using bigoted language. Then I’ll know that you are willing to face reality, and not be delusional.

            Admit that wealth inequality is a problem, that it disproportionately impacts minorities, particularly blacks, and that governmental policies in the last 50 (red lining) and 100 (Jim Crow) years directly benefited people alive today, at the direct expense of minorities who are also alive today. So racist governmental policies created and perpetuated the racial wealth gap. Admit that sending disproportionate numbers of non violent black teens to prison for minor drug charges, compared to white drug offenders who get probation, is likely to lead to more violent blacks (durrr, going to prison makes people more violent? Noooopppe derp).

            Then I’ll know you can look critically and objectively at facts- not solely from a lens of “but what about MEEEEEEEE”.

            When I can see that you are not delusional and willing to step outside your own small minded self-view (that you have convinced yourself is a ‘worldview’), then you are worthy of discussing ” solutions “.

            Until then, you’re just a selfish, hateful troll, delusional, small minded, and likely to die alone, unmourned, in your filthy cave. And you can rail on about how I’m a “whiner” with no “solutions” until the sun comes up and you turn to stone- Dooooooooooont Caaaaaaaaaare.

            You’re not worth having that discussion with. Not yet.

            But hey- anyone can change. Let me know when you do, and we will talk solutions.

            PS let me predict your response:
            “AS I THOUGHT- NO SOLUTIONS (completely ignores his own lies and delusions and assumes he is entitled to demand solutions of anyone). Cave troll winnns! Yay! #Winning!”

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            As I thought. No solutions. You just want to whine and complain about how hard and terrible it is for so called minorities here in the states. Yet, people that aren’t white sneak into this country every single year by the millions. If it was that “difficult” here, don’t you think they might just stay at home? Food for thought.

            I know, pinko effeminate left wingers like yourself love to ignore the facts.

            Kind of like when you said “The complete lack of correlation between “race” and genetics, and the fact that the guy You quoted to support your nutsy theory… Actually agreed with me.”

            Complete lack of correlation between race and genetics? Really? And you call me a liar? That’s rich. For the tenth time, it’s called genetic distance. Scientists, using REAL science have shown that people of different races are genetically closer to each-other than to people of different races. Like I said, the genetic distance between an englishman and a dane is like 5….the genetic distance between an englishman and an arab is like 20…..the genetic distance between an englishman and a chinese person is like 1100, and the genetic distance between an englishman and a subsaharan african is around 1500.

            So much for your indoctrinated “race is a social construct” nonsense. If it wasn’t for REAL SCIENCE, you left wingers would be telling us black is really white, and the moon is just the sun at night. You effeminate left wing deceivers rely on deception, twisting the facts, obscuring the truth, and even outright lies. Sorry pragtard, but endlessly talking in circles using left wing whining, name calling, and left wing cannon does not make up for your lack of real science and total ignorance of the evidence that is out there.

            I know why you do what you do, but I am saying you are a fool for it. I hope you understand that by now. People are tribal. It’s normal and adaptive. If you don’t believe me, travel the world like I have. You will see it EVERYWHERE.

            Deep inside you are a communist. I know you won’t admit that. This is why people like me in the 70′s called people like you “pinkos”. Because you were red, but you were too ashamed of the excesses of the communists to be associated with them. You don’t like being associated with the murderous pol pot, stalin, mao, and the like.

            You feel that the ONLY explanation for the failure of nonwhites is white so called “racism”. I disagree. I see other nonwhites outperforming whites (Indians and Asians), so I see that “white racism against nonwhites” cannot be the cause of specifically black poverty.

            Plenty of Asians come to this country as poor or poorer than lower and middle income blacks. Yet within a generation or two, they are frequently doctors, engineers, business owners, etc, and are outperforming whites. So, claiming that past “victimization” sets blacks permanently behind whites doesn’t make sense either. If asians can come to america with less than blacks and bypass both blacks and whites, the “starting point” of blacks isn’t an excuse for their poverty either.

            I know you want all people to be equal: the alleged goal of communism. But it will never happen. It’s a pipe dream you see. People are not equal in skill, drive, intelligence, athleticism, artistic abilities, etc etc. You cannot make everyone the same. Communists like yourself always end up doing the same. You fear and hate people like me because you can’t control us, you cannot make us “perfect” like you. Those people communists can’t “perfect” usually are jailed or shot.

            This is how it always ends with those that want to make everyone equal and make the world a utopia. Those that are the party elite also always end up being the “haves”, while almost everyone else ends up being “have-nots”. This is due to human selfishness, which is normal, natural, and adaptive.

            Utopia and “equality” will never happen pragtard. There will always be “selfishness”, famine, war, tribalism, suffering, bad hair days, birth, death, and want.

            You cannot change this. It’s time to grow up and see reality for what it is. Utopia will NEVER come.

            But go ahead and call me names and do some psychobabble analysis on me (even though you’re not a shrink) if you wish.

            I’m just telling you that you’re lost and clueless. Completely and utterly naive about how people really behave and why they do what they do.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Bob:

            Never responded to red lining.

            Never responded to Jim Crow.

            Never responded to the enormous weight of current evidence that there is still institutionalized racism today (not limited to whites – black/ asian/ hispanic employers/ professors/ police all showed the same general racist tendencies, although in slightly different proportions). Studies that show that resumes with “black” names are dramatically less likely to get an interview (all other factors being equal – these studies were done with fake resumes, with no real people involved), “black” names were less likely to be accepted as a mentee by a professor, blacks still make less on average for the same job, even when performance is demonstrably equal, etc. etc.

            Constantly throw up the “slavery was too long ago” straw man that ignores the last 100 years.

            Constantly throw up the “walk through the ‘hood” straw man, as if my empathy for blacks should somehow translate to meaningless acts of wandering into black neighborhoods, uninvited, to… do what exactly? Prove that they might be racist towards me? That they might be violent towards me? That doesn’t a) negate my empathy nor b) prove that they are undeserving of help. It just proves, as I said, that if you walk into a violent area, you might encounter violence. Bit of a blinding flash of the obvious, there.

            Completely ignoring the fact that while there was institutionalized racism against other groups (including “white” groups at times, such as Irish, Italian, etc.), none of them faced the level of discrimination, theft, and murder that blacks did. Red lining and Jim Crow applied to blacks only. These, plus segregation, were intentional policies by people who would have preferred to go back to slavery, but knew they couldn’t, and so did everything they could to make blacks into effective slaves – working for little to nothing, with no rights, and no wealth. These polices were not targeted at “minorities.” They were targeted at ex-slaves: blacks.

            Completely ignoring the fact that whites have been repeatedly shown to do more drugs and possess drugs at a higher rate than blacks – and yet blacks are more likely to be arrested and convicted for the same crime.

            You want me to talk “solutions” but we don’t even agree on the problem.

          • Bob Sten

            Pragtard,

            You claim there is a “problem”. Whether I agree or not has nothing to do with your “solutions”.

            So what are your solutions?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I posted them in a different post.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            You think it’s fine that blacks are, on average, less likely to get help in school, get a job, and get paid as well as their white counterparts – even if they are performing just as well in any of those arenas. And that they are more likely to be arrested for the same crime, and if arrested, more likely to be convicted. And that countless studies have proven these biases as fact, over and over.

            Your “solution” is: so what, tribes are tribes, people are selfish, etc.

            Except, you are wrong. If you have read my posts, you know that I have also commented extensively on the current studies of happiness that are exploding across the world. For the vast majority of people (excluding narcissists, sociopaths, etc.), what makes up our long term happiness is:
            50% – baseline. combination of genetics and childhood experiences that activate genes (abuse vs. nurturing)
            10% – basic needs. enough to eat, shelter, security, etc.
            40% – positive, communal actions. Examples: altruistic acts. Expressions of gratitude. giving. Offering emotional support. etc.

            Notice something? Nowhere in there is “acquiring more stuff.” We are evolutionarily designed to be communal and giving.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Of course I think its fine that blacks make less than whites.

            Jews make more on average than whites. If whites want to make as much as jews, they need to work harder, and set up the same network of ethnic/racial nepotism that jews do.

            Jews have been smarter than whites, that is why they make more.

            I don’t think we need to have affirmative action for whites and hamstring jews just because jews out-compete whites.

            Thus, I am consistent. You are not.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Blacks make less than whites for the same work.

            Jews do not make more than whites, for the same work.

            False equivalency.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Do hispanics make less than blacks for the same work?

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Where is the study showing that jews don’t make more than whites for the same work?

            Oh yeah, there is no such study. Politically incorrect studies aren’t even done in our day and age. Such a study would never be permitted for fear of the outcome. It’s OK and “desirable” to have a study showing evil white males make more than pygmies, but it’s beyond the pale to do a study to see if whites make less than members of some protected so called minority group (in this case, jews).

            Capice?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Ps- you completely ignored both the studies I shared proving broad anti black bias in hiring and in universities.

            And you whined like a child for “solutions”, and when I presented solutions that would directly impact the thieves who benefited, and not take from anyone else…. Drum roll…. You ignored them!

            I’m sensing a pattern here- if you don’t like hearing something, you just cover your ears. Hey- my 2 year old does that! You guys should hang out.

            Glad you have empathy for… You (and people who remind you of you). That’s totally not narcissistic at all.

            It’s OK, I’m sure you won’t die violently, unloved, unmourned, and uncared about- like most narcissists. Night night!

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Sorry, but didn’t see all of your solutions in one post. Please respond where your “solutions” here, in one post, with bullet points.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Wow, unscientific left wing “studies”, by left leaning professors and think tanks.

            Me smells something fishy about your “studies”.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Troll handbook 101: When faced with facts, claim “Conspiracy” and run.

            Black resume study by NBER (non-partisan group):
            http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

            Black mentoring study, by the Wharton School of Business:
            http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2063742

            Go ahead, start your discrediting engines.

        • Bob Sten

          pragtard

          1. Not neener neener. You said you attack “bigoted words” whenever you see them, and I looked through your posts and found you don’t. You only call whites “racist”, nobody else. Thus you are a hypocrite. You don’t think your a hypocrite, but actions speak louder than words.

          2. Again, the hypocrisy is you only call out whites on their tribalism….everyone else goes UNCOMMENTED ON WITH YOUR DRIVEL POSTS ON MESSAGE BOARDS! Thus you’re a hypocrite.

          3. You have absolutely zero proof that ALL FBI data is based on eyewitness reports. Stop being paranoid, the CDC and the FBI aren’t trying to “hold the black man down.” Your left wing “studies” aren’t as dependable in my book as EVIDENCE provided by the FBI and CDC. Sorry, but your biased left wing think tanks don’t pass muster. They have an agenda…..the CDC and FBI don’t. For the umpteenth time, if your mantra that these lazy, “systematically racist” cops are out there walking all over everyone that isn’t white, why are asians and indians arrested even less frequently than whites?

          My points:

          1. You always call whites on these message boards “racist”, but I have never seen you ONCE call a nonwhite a “racist”, even when they are spewing vile, anti-white sentiments. Not once. Coward. So, you are a liar when you say “I never said “whites” were “racist.””

          2. Any pragtard on these boards can say they do this or that. My offer still stands. $500 pal. And you offering me $500 to walk in “ulster”? It’s the six counties pragtard. Ulster is only 4 counties. Look it up. I never said unionist punks were “oppressed”, and “misunderstood”, and “needing to be looked after”. So, your analogy is utterly stupid. You say blacks are misunderstood and oppressed. I am saying if they are such angels, why don’t you go hang in a hood of my choosing for a while?

          3. Apparently you don’t know much about slavery. Whites didn’t “run ships for the purposes of capturing slaves.” That’s historical revisionism. Tribal africans captured and enslaved those from competing tribes. They then sold those slaves to arab and european merchants. You act as though europeans were trouncing through the jungles of africa capturing slaves. This just didn’t happen. Why do I need to educate you about these simple facts? If you are such a “scholar of black victimhood”, you should already know basic facts like these. In addition, like I said before, only 7% of whites owned slaves when it was legal in the US. Also, many blacks are successful today: lawyers, doctors, business owners, engineers, and the like. If slavery has “scarred” every black person that will ever be born in the future and cause them to fail…..as you effeminate left wing loons seem to be saying, then how do you explain these individual’s successes?

          4. You are always whining about the cops and how they “have it in” for “minorities”. Which isn’t true in reality, as I have shown with asians and indians. Now you don’t want to discuss the behavior of police? Oh, ok hypocrite.

          5. The sources are out their for interracial rape pragtard, it’s just that you will disregard all sources that aren’t from those with a left wing slant. Cognitive dissonance, as you call it me thinks.

          6. genocide is worse than your so called “racism” pragtard. Under one you’re DEAD, under the other, you are simply competing against other tribes.

          Genetics – You can’t handle the truth. Macdonald, disgraced? I don’t think so. Maybe by jewish tribal windbags, but that’s about it. No single referenced study? It’s a treasure trove of genetics called “the history and geography of human genes” by cavalli sforza. Read it and weep lemming. Cavalli sforza has to spew left wing platitudes because of liars like you, otherwise his research would be de-funded in our 1984, though police environment. Just read the book, you will see lots. Look specifically at genetic distances. You will see that the genetic distance between and englishman and a dane is much smaller than between an englishman and an indonesian. Similarly, a japanese person is genetically less distant from a chinese person, than they are to a nigerian. This isn’t rocket science, and there is scientific evidence showing these distances all over this book. If race is “just a social construct” and doesn’t exist, as you claim, then this scientific evidence wouldn’t exist. But it does. Too bad, so sad. I remember hearing a radio program when I was driving in the florida keys. This left wing jewish professor was being asked what he would do if he uncovered irrefutable scientific evidence that IQ and race were related. The “professor” said he “would do everything in his power to cover up the evidence and make sure it never got out.” This is disgusting. The far left zeitgeist, which you are a zombie of, holds their political agenda and goals as more important than TRUTH. This is why I despise the left. When you rely on LIES because you think it’s “for the greater good”, you lose my respect. I am sure you feel the same as this fraud and deceiver – you would cover up such evidence if you had a chance. Tell me I’m wrong about that!

          The rest of your post is just effeminate, angry left wing bile.

          So, what’s your “solution” to black poverty after all pragtard? Imprison the successful asians, indians and whites? Should we cut off the limbs of whites and asians? Maybe blind them to “make things more equal”? Maybe we should bulldoze their homes and fire them from their jobs? Maybe we should just do to whites and asians and indians what pol pot did to the educated in cambodia?

          Tell me “genius”. What’s the solution, all knowing one? Reparations? Beheadings? And again, what if this doesn’t work? What would you do if a disproportionate number of blacks still failed?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            You responded to yourself there, troll.

            This whole thing was making me sad for you, and how unhappy you must be, when I realized – you’re just a garden variety narcissist.

            You were incredulous at the possibility that I was standing up for other groups, because, in your words to me: “I don’t know how that benefits you?”

            You can only see things in terms of: how does it benefit ME?

            And so you assume that I must think like you – that my support for disadvantaged groups (blacks, LGBT, the poor, etc.) must be some sort of self hatred, because it’s IMPOSSIBLE that someone could care about something that doesn’t selfishly benefit them.

            That’s all because you are missing the part of the brain where we process empathy. Kind of like that neuro-scientist, who looked at his own brain scans, and found that he was a high-functioning psychopath. Because the part of the brain that lights up when you feel:
            Compassion, empathy, sadness, etc.
            Simply doesn’t light up for you.

            So blah blah blah, all your points are just not that interesting, now that I realize what you are. You don’t care about anyone but yourself, because that’s the way you are wired. Your brain is limited in that way. And you assume everyone else works like you – and that people like me are “faking it” and that deep down, we are simply fueled by a different version of the greed/ selfishness/ hate that fuels you.

            I’m sad for you, Bob. And I hope you find some way to change this. Because otherwise, you’ll just end up hurting someone. Or killing someone. I hope you don’t, but I don’t have a lot of faith that you will change. Your kind rarely does.

          • Bob Sten

            Pragtard,

            Here is a black man talking about white liberals like you.

            His words pretty much match mine exactly. The only difference is, you won’t cry “racist, racist, racist” because a black man is saying them….because, like I said you are a vile, blind, uncle Tom, hypocrite.

            If you won’t listen to me, then at least listen to a black guy talk about my points.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_7GsNH33Wk

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Yup, he’s racist. Black men can be racist too. He sounds racist both against blacks, and whites. No problem with saying that. I’ve said that kind of thing repeatedly, not sure why you keep coming back to this point, but if you want to lob up more softballs for me to bat down, by all means, please do.

            I have been on YouTube as well, and commented on a number of videos where people are being racist. I don’t generally know the race of the commenters, but in several cases, their headshot for their profile seems to be an actual picture of them, and that picture is of a black individual. And I have directly argued with them about their racism.

            Racism isn’t about whites vs. blacks, it’s about people making gross generalizations about entire groups of individuals, based on nothing more than skin color. It’s intellectually lazy, and silly. It doesn’t lead to any practical good. It doesn’t help anyone’s life get better- neither the racist, nor the people with the skin color that the racist is attacking. It’s kind of like being angry at people for being left handed, or tall, or red headed, or having freckles, or dyslexic, etc. It’s just… ineffective, and lazy.

            You seem willing to read, and willing to pursue education. I just don’t know why on earth you would be so focused on reinforcing this false belief that your racism will somehow make your own life better. Or that it’s even worth your time and energy. Unless you’re a narcissist. Honestly, that’s the only root source for this behavior that is plausible at this point. I thought it was past trauma, but you’ve pretty much dispelled that. So, narcissism it is.

            Anyhow, yes, he’s racist. No, I don’t support him and his ideas just because he’s black. I don’t excuse his speech, just because he’s black. I will happily call him a racist.

            PS your response “well, you’re still a hypocrite, and a bigot, because….” some other irrational response. Basically, because you are incapable of backing down on any points – or admitting fault. Yet another red flag of narcissism.

            Also, since we’re sharing videos, here’s one for you:

            http://youtu.be/ktmNEWwH69s

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            You think blacks are incapable of succeeding without the help of whites. This black guy KNOWS blacks can succeed just like nonwhite ASIANS and INDIANS do.

            Thus, you belittle and denigrate blacks. He doesn’t.

            I am SURE he has a heck of a lot more experience with “the black experience in america” than you do. Arrogant, soft headed effeminate liberal.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Nope. I think anyone is incapable of succeeding without some help. No one succeeds alone. The help for anyone doesn’t have to come from “whites.”

            Also, I think there is a huge weight of evidence that there are biases in place that make it harder for blacks to succeed. That has nothing to do with whether or not they “can” succeed. It has to do with a simple concept – do you believe in a meritocracy? Or do you believe in a deck that is stacked against some, and favors others?

            I believe in meritocracy. You believe in Bob.

          • Bob Sten

            Pragtard,

            You don’t believe in meritocracy. You believe that those groups that fail to thrive should be given preferences to make the outcome more “equal”.

            This is the polar opposite of meritocracy.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            When you simply ignore the points I made about hiring and other biases based on “blacks” names, you revealed your indifference and lack of empathy to anyone who doesn’t remind you of you.

            Quick- don’t look now, but your narcissism and bigotry is showing.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Do you support affirmative action or not?

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            You think because blacks make on average 10% less than whites, that excuses every black criminal, thug, and white hater out there? Really? We’re talking 10%.

            You realize that hispanics are even poorer than blacks right? Why is it that you don’t blame all of the problems of hispanics on white people?

            You let blacks blame all of their problems and personal failings on whites. Do you let hispanics scapegoat whites the same way?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I think because blacks are arrested and convicted at a higher rate than other races for the same low level non violent drug crimes, even though other races (particularly whites) are caught with drugs more often, and use drugs more often than blacks, it means there is a huge bias in the system. And either we should have millions of more whites in jail- for the same “possession of marijuana” raps, or those blacks should get the same “probation” slap on the hand that whites do.

            And i don’t think, i KNOW- sending a non violent 16 year old pot smoker to jail for 3-5 years makes them more violent. Prison makes people more violent. Not blacks- everyone.

          • Bob Sten

            Pragtard,

            So your goal is to put more whites in jail?

            Do you ever think that maybe arrest rates for drug crimes vary for other reasons besides your alleged “institutional racism”?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            No. White drug use and possession has been repeatedly proven to be higher than blacks. Whites walk, blacks get arrested and convicted.

            You know this, and you have no counter argument, which is why your strongest response is a weak “what if” type question.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,
            So, if “whites walk, and blacks get arrested and convicted” we should hardly see ANY whites in prison for using or dealing. But there are tens of thousands of whites in prison for using and dealing. So, apparently whites don’t “walk”.
            Plenty of research has also shown that blacks tend to use the drugs that cops focus on more: ie heroin and crack rather than pot.
            …also that whites tend to use drugs in private in their homes more frequently, rather than out on the street where they are more likely to get caught.
            Thus, there are plenty of rational reasons for different arrest rates. The idea that whites control the entire justice system and meet together to secretly “oppress” blacks, but not other nonwhites like Asians and Indians is kinda a nonstarter in my view pragtard.
            Apparently the feeling amongst some (left wingers no doubt) was that black on black crime was so high because of drug use in black areas. The idea was that blacks using drugs had less money than whites using drugs, so to get money for drugs, they were more likely to rob and steal from those in their neighborhoods. So, in an effort to drop black on black crime rates, there was a push to arrest more users in the inner city.
            No doubt it was some effeminate left wing white douches like yourself pushing for this. Now that it resulted in more blacks in prison, you’re screaming “racism, racism”. You meddling fools are perpetual malcontents. But it’s funny to watch you scru yourselves over and over again.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            And there are also the Ferguson stats:
            Blacks: 67% of population
            Whites: 29%

            Blacks: 86% of police stops
            Whites: 13%

            Blacks: 12.1% of those stopped were searched
            Whites: 6.9%

            Blacks: 21.7% of those searched had contraband
            Whites: 34%

            Blacks: 10% of those stopped were arrested
            Whites: 5%

            So whites were carrying contraband at about 150% the rate of blacks. But blacks were stopped at more than double the rate of whites (per capita). Blacks were searched at double the rate of whites. And blacks Caught with something – were arrested at double the rate of whites.

            Cops ignored the facts, ignored reality, and targeted blacks, and then arrested them more often, for the same crime.

            This is all in the same small town (population – 21k). There are dozens of cities/ towns with stats like this. All of your other reasoning literally disappears in these cities. This has nothing to do with robbery, violence, blah blah blah. It’s simple racism.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            You are a true believer, I must admit. You’ve got the world completely figured out.

            What contraband did the blacks have in these stops vs. the whites?

            Why were the whites pulled over vs the blacks? (ie speeding, driving recklessly, vehicle IDed from witnesses?

            As for the arrests, what were the specific arrests for? Possession of mj? Crack? Stolen goods?

            All of this information has a bearing on the whole picture. Context is important pragtard.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            This one keeps dropping to “pending” not sure why, but I posted it earlier:

            Context is important. Like the context of why there are more stats of violent black crime – after being disproportionately arrested, convicted, and sent to prison for nonviolent crimes. And the context of poverty among blacks – after Slavery, Jim Crow, and Redlining. etc.

            You like context when it works in your favor, but not otherwise, AmIRite?!?

            Here’s the Ferguson data (spaces in the link so it doesn’t show up as a link – that drops it into pending for some reason):

            ago .mo .gov / VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

            Blacks were stopped disproportionately for “license”, which means they wanted to see if they had a valid drivers license. For which there is no probable cause, and no visual evidence that anyone would or wouldn’t have a license, other than (drum roll) Race!

            Contraband – similar ratios white to black. Vast majority of contraband was drugs, for both.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            You are clearly on a Quixotic crusade, regardless of the data.

            I read the link you provided and look at the numbers with a less paranoid view than yourself and see more.

            And what I see doesn’t back your “cracka cops always holding down minorities” rants.

            For instance, did you notice from your OWN link:

            -The search rate and arrest rates for hispanics and asians was even LESS THAN THAT FOR WHITES!

            -Blacks and Native Americans had the highest search and arrest rates. In fact, Native Americans had even higher search and arrest rates than blacks. See, blacks aren’t at the bottom of the pack, it’s natives. You just don’t care about natives, so this information isn’t visible to your monomaniacal eye apparently.

            So, is your world view now that evil racist cops are in a conspiracy against Indians, blacks and whites, and they are letting “privileged” hispanics and asians off the hook?

            Never, that would contradict your msnbc brainwashing. Can’t go against the herd, can you pragtard?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            So your counterpoint to my assertion that cops are racist against blacks… Is that they are also racist against others?

            No debate here. All you are doing is admitting there is definite racial bias- and it potentially impacts native Americans most, followed by blacks.

            So your point is- we should address both? Sounds good.

          • Bob Sten

            Pragtard,

            You see what you want to see and completely IGNORE anything that doesn’t support your distorted world view. You are blind and delusional effeminate white boy.

            I said:

            The search rate and arrest rates for hispanics and asians was even LESS THAN THAT FOR WHITES!

            So, is your world view now that evil racist cops are in a conspiracy against Indians, blacks and whites, and they are letting “privileged” hispanics and asians off the hook?

            Again, this is data from the link YOU PROVIDED!

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I saw the data. Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are 2 orders of magnitude smaller than whites/ blacks, both in terms of populations and police stops. There was 1 arrest for Hispanics and Native Americans, and none for Asian. 1 additional arrest would dramatically skew that data. So there’s not enough data to actually show a meaningful PATTERN.There are about 50 Ferguson cops. 686 stops for whites – there’s a good chance that includes most if not all of their cops. Ditto with 4,632 stops for blacks. 22 stops for Hispanics? 12 Asian? 8 native american? That means only a small proportion of the cops actually had an interaction with those people. So it fundamentally cannot be representative of “Ferguson PD” as it could with 686 or 4632.

            It does not mean that there is not bias, positive or negative, in the Ferguson police, about hispanics, asians, and native americans. It just means there’s not enough data.

            So in my “worldview”, that data sample is too small, and it shows nothing. The data for whites & blacks is large enough to be meaningful, and to show patterns.

            I think you are smart enough to have seen that, if you actually read the data. And if you were honest, you would probably come to the same conclusion – the data for whites/ blacks shows a pattern. The data for everyone else is simply inconclusive, because it would be completely skewed by one event (a single arrest or non-arrest).

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Au contraire. If it was whites that were numerically tiny like asians, and arrested at the same rate as asians in ferguson, you would have again used it as a cudgel against whites, screaming “white privilege, white privilege!”

            You know you would.

            I have never met a left winger that was white that didn’t have animosity against whites. Never! You sir, are no exception.

            If blacks are targeted more than others, I have an answer: stop committing so many crimes. Like that cretin Brown stealing from the poor little indian clerk. HE CAUSED HIS PROBLEMS. Not “evil white tea party members.

            If blacks emulated asians and indians, they would have far less problems with the law. You would rather blacks look at the past and blame all their problems on that rather than taking control of their own future and making positive changes. You are an enabler in my view.

            I think you should just stay out of black people’s business. People like you promise the moon to blacks, but deliver nothing but problems and failure. Sorry to be brutally honest, but that is truly the way I see it.

            In addition, what’s going on now in ferguson is a complete joke. You must admit that lots of the “activists” out there now are idiots with a lynch mob mentality. They don’t want “justice”. They just want the blood of white people.

            I know, I know, you will rationalize their extreme tribalism. You are unbelievably predictable.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I have no animosity against whites.

            I actually think “white privilege” is a stupid cliche. Plenty of whites were not the recipient of any “privilege” that they could point to. And I wouldn’t see it as a “privilege” to not be harassed by cops, or shot on site. It’s a basic human right. “White privelege” polarizes people, and it also ignores the fact that racism is not a “white” problem. It’s a human problem. There are plenty of black, jewish, asian, etc. racists out there.

            I have instead talked solely about racism. It’s not about whites (or asians, or whoever) having it better. It’s about blacks having it worse.

            And looking at “the past” means looking at people alive today, who were alive for the race riots in the 60′s, who worked 3 jobs to buy a house from a predatory lender because of redling, who lost their parents to racist killers who went unpunished because of Jim Crow, etc. etc.

            If you had your parents murdered, your wife raped, your home and wealth taken, and you barely scraped by and survived, and in your 70′s, someone told you to “stop living in the past” and “get over racism” you would kick them in the teeth.

            Right the wrongs done to those individuals is not “enabling.” It’s rule of law – applied equally to all. When the courts ignored the blatant usury law violations that were sparked by redlining, they sent a clear message “rule of law does not apply on behalf of blacks.” That is a broken system.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            You are saying every black person had “their wife raped, their home and wealthy taken”?

            Where is your evidence for these preposterous claims?

            You still have failed to explain why there are so many successful blacks out there: doctors, lawyers, business owners, athletes, entertainers, etc. if this society has destroyed black people’s abilities to succeed.

            I am sure many of the wealthy blacks out there today probably came from people that were dirt poor…..and many of the ultra poor blacks out there today came from middle class folks.

            You cannot blame the past for the current status of any of these individuals. Successes that came from failures…..and failures that came from successful ancestors.

            Just like any other group. There are plenty of poor whites today that are descended from middle or upper class people. Esplain that one genius…..

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            So because not everyone is identical, that means broad, statistically based patterns don’t exist.

            You do realize that you’ve stopped actually responding to any points, and you’re just incoherently ranting at this point?

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            I realize that you cannot address any of my points in the last post, that’s why you avoided answering. Way to deflect pragtard, way to deflect!

            However, I’ll ask again:

            You still have failed to explain why there are so many successful blacks out there: doctors, lawyers, business owners, athletes, entertainers, etc. if this society has destroyed black people’s abilities to succeed.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Bobvious troll is Bobvious

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Re Ferguson – Brown didn’t Cause his problems. Wilson had NO foreknowledge of the store incident, and he acknowledged that fact. How many stupid 17 year old kids shoplift or do something aggressive? Stats show that 45-47% of teenagers shoplift, ACROSS RACES AND INCOME RANGES. Black kids don’t do it any more than white kids, or any other kids.

            Regardless, Wilson didn’t know about the alleged theft/ robbery. He simply saw two blacks on the side of the road, and decided to show some aggressive authority. Brown probably decided he had been hassled by cops for no reason enough that day. They both made mistakes. But Wilson is an officer of the law, and he’s held to a higher standard. A black kid yelling back at you, while he walks home, is not a reason to stop the car and arrest him. It’s not even a reason to stop the car. It’s not even a reason for Wilson to have yelled “get on the sidewalk” in the first place. It was an unnecessary show of aggression – impractical. All it accomplishes is planting more seeds of anger/ dissent.

            I have no support for any looting/ violence that happens in Brown’s name. I have no support for cops rolling tanks either – the militarization of our police force, which happened AFTER historic drops in crime levels, is absolutely ridiculous. And it’s a part of the equation in Ferguson – make cops think they are soldiers, and they’ll act like soldiers. Including finding an “enemy” to focus their aggression on.

          • Bob Sten

            You’re a loon pragtard,

            Why can’t you simply admit that if blacks emulated asians and indians, they would have far less problems with the law?

            Is that really more realistic?

            Or is your “Wilson had family members in the kkk five generations ago, so an “anti-black gene” was handed down to him thus he had it in for all blacks.”

            You are grasping for straws pragtard.

            You’re world view is so infantile and naive. You really just need to stay on college campuses. Folks there are the only idiots that believe in this “critical race theory” garbage that you (whether knowingly or not) peddle.

            You’re lost little white boy.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I’m not really sure what you’re saying here, other than a bunch of ad hominem. You have no point, soooo “effeminite naive liberal.”

            I guess when logic fails you, try insults? If that’s all you’ve got, then I’ll just wait till you troll again. Adieu.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            And once again, I post rational replies to your rant, which prove you wrong, and you simply go back to racist trolling.

            You be you- and I will continue to mark you as a troll every post I see.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Anti-white, self hating effeminate white liberal boys like you always cry “racism”. What’s new?

            It’s how you deflect legitimate and uncomfortable questions……

            Everyone sees it now, except you morons.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Bob,

            I have said, probably a dozen times, I have nothing against “whites.” I don’t even believe in the designation as a race. For example, I am white, I have plenty of non-racist friends who are white, and are good people. You are “white” and we clearly have nothing in common. I don’t hate myself, I don’t even hate you. I just pity you, for all the hate you carry.

            I do hate racism. It’s a broken, sad, useless ideology. You can call it “tribalism” all you want. Lipstick on a pig. You are a racist, and it’s not worth sugarcoating.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            So, do you hate members of mecha? Do you hate members of the black panthers?

            Do you hate al sharpton, jesse jackson, and louis farrakhan?

            If whites are attacked simply because they are white, does it cause you even a millisecond of discomfort?

            Do you have any sense of camaraderie with your own tribe…..like most hispanics, blacks, jews, and asians that I know?

            Or are you a rough, tough, rugged “lone wolf”, fighting the “good fight of anti-tribalism”, even though most people are doing the complete opposite of you?

            Seeing how much tribalism is in the world, do you see yourself as an outcast and a rebel?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Bob,

            You seem to be stuck on about a 2nd grade level of reading comprehension. You just CANNOT comprehend the concept that someone doesn’t hate people based on “race” (color of skin), but instead, simply hates broken ideologies. Either way, I didn’t read this whole rant, but the gist I got was “how can you possibly hate JUST white people? Why don’t you hate EVERYONE?”

            To which, I’ll respond, again – “I DON’T HATE WHITE PEOPLE”.

            I hate racism, and racists, and I don’t care what color they are. And I’m not interested in groups based on “race” but on shared experiences and viewpoints. Clearly – because I’m “white” and yet you would reject me, and not count me as a member of your “tribe” even though your “tribe” is whites.

            But apparently your tribe is Not whites. It’s bigoted whites, who hate other races. That’s a much smaller, angrier, sadder slice of the pie, my friend.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Yes, just like tribal american blacks….you know, those ones that got their panties in a bunch over thug Trayvon and the thug in ferguson…. I reject uncle toms. Those black folks reject what they consider stupid black uncle toms.

            As I reject those like you that I consider stupid white uncle toms. Doesn’t mean I “hate” white people just because I think you are a delusional, inexperienced fool.

            You are still confusing love of your tribe with “hate” of non tribe members. Don’t be so lame.

            Love of my mom doesn’t mean I “hate” everyone that isn’t my mom.

            Dang, your brain washing is thorough. You truly cannot see past the world view that was completely painted for you…..by others.

            Note to pragtard: you are NOT a rebel, you are not an “outsider”, you are NOT a free thinker. You are totally mainstream, politically correct. You think just like the idiots in the mainstream press want you to think. Just like the teachers want you to think. Just like your government tells you to think. You ARE the man. People like you ARE the power structure. You are common, boring, and unoriginal. It is people like you that used to burn people at the stake for claiming the earth was round.

            My tribe is white people that care about other white people. You clearly have animosity towards white people. You just cannot admit it. But everything you write shows your anti-white bias.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            According to you:
            Anti-racism=anti-white.
            Take away the “anti’s” and that shows how You really see the world.

            According to me:
            Racism = anyone who acts racist
            Including blacks, Asians, Indians, etc.

            Fyi- Ferguson “thug” was stopped for JAYWALKING. Wilson was unaware of alleged robbery. JAYWALKING. Wilson fired four shots from 148 FEET away, after Brown ran from him because of the first six shots fired.

            Your son gets stopped by a cop for JAYWALKING. He is shot from half a football field away. The cop was clearly not defending himself from “imminent danger” – it takes am Olympian 5 seconds to cover yards. If Brown was white, Asian, light skinned Indian, etc, Wilson would not have fired. He would have know he would have been crucified by everyone- even his fellow cops wouldn’t back him. But Brown was black.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard says

            “According to me:Racism = anyone who acts racist
            Including blacks, Asians, Indians, etc.”

            I call you a liar, dear sir. Please point to one single post you made where you vilified an anti-white poster as “racist”.

            waiting……

            PS, your analysis of Ferguson is pure trash, based on lies. The thug bullied a store clerk, stole some stuff, punched a cop, then rushed him and got shot.

            If it was a black cop and a white perp, you would have claimed the shooting was justified.

            You are just too monomaniacal in your dogma to realize what a hypocrite you are. You’re a delusional fool pragtard.

            It is my feeling that given the exact same circumstances, if the cop was black, and the perp white, the shooting would have been justified. Race doesn’t matter here, justice does. For you the race of the victim and perp matter for how you view the incident. Thus, you are the one obsessed with race.

            I keep pointing this out to you, but you are too blind to see. Again “living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see….”

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Doooooooooooooooooooooooooon’t care.

            You take like 8 weeks to respond. I’m bored of you.

            From here on out, you shall only receive “obvious troll is obvious” type labels.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard the nonmath major,

            It said 10 days since your post. 8 weeks equals 56 days.

            No wonder you have such a difficult problem understanding basic logic and easy to understand concepts like “consistency”.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Bobvious troll is Bobvious.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            (Continued – apparently the length was what dropped this to “pending”).
            There are plenty of other interesting stats in there, like “other” (reason for 25 black arrests, and 1 white), the number of blacks Arrested (not ticketed) for a traffic violation, the number of blacks searched as “incident to arrest” (hmm, you blew a red light, rather than ticket you, we will arrest you, so we can search your car). Etc. etc.
            Why is it so hard for you to admit that racism still exists, and that it exists within people with power, and they abuse that power with racism as one of the guiding factors of that abuse?

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Because I don’t believe there is such a thing as so called “racism”. I believe all groups are biased and tribal – except for effeminate white liberals like yourself.

            pragtard, if I get pulled over for speeding and get ticketed (and I have no outstanding warrants, and I am not on probation), then an hour later, the same cop pulls over a black guy that was speeding at the same rate as me, but the black guy has an outstanding warrant or is on probation – do you see any reason for the cop to treat us differently? Or are we equally the same in your view?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I think if the cops purpose is to not just ticket you, but catch you with drugs- and we are saying racial profiling is ok- then he should be more suspicious of you. And more likely to search you. Because the hard stats and facts say that he’s Much more likely to catch a white person with drugs than a black person, based on traffic stops and the actual Data from traffic stops.

            Instead, blacks are more likely to be searched- completely at odds with the actual data. But no racism there, amirite?!?

          • Bob Sten

            Pragtard,

            So now you are for racial profiling as long as it’s profiling of whites?

            WOW!

            Hypocrite alert! Hypocrite alert!

            I love seeing, hearing, and reading the stupid hypocrisy of effeminate self hating white liberal men like you.

            You’re a riot. You are biologically maladaptive. Favor the “other” and bring heat on those that are like you. What a brainwashed tool you are. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Grow a brain pragtard.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Actually, I never said I was for racial profiling. I said IF you are going to do racial profiling, the data supports profiling whites for drugs at a higher rate than blacks.

            But no, I would not support racial profiling at all. I think it’s an ineffective strategy.

            Sorry that you are apparently incapable of reading the word “if.”

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            You are a left wing, naive buffoon.

            If london was experiencing a rash of bombings solely by irish republicans and nobody else, it doesn’t make sense that the police and scotland yard would focus on indians, scottish presbyterians, jamaicans, and so forth in order to catch the bombers.

            It makes the most sense to go after irish people that fit the profile of the bombers.

            You are hopelessly naive. Profiling works. Pretending you can create a utopia of unicorns and rainbows by being politically correct would not stop such bombings.

            What are you anyways, a sociology professor at a community college?

            Let me guess, you smoke reefer weekly. Amirite?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            If profiling works – then why did the Ferguson PD ignore the data? If it works, then why are black arrest rates for drugs higher, despite higher drug usage by whites? Why are more blacks searched, when proportionately searches of whites are more likely to result in drugs?

            Sorry Bob, the data doesn’t support your theories.

            As for personal info – no, I would not share that with a terrifying, angry, violent, bigoted troll such as yourself.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Exactly how am i “violent”? Esplain lucy the effeminate white boy.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            You’re a meathead, babbling about what is “effeminite” as if its someone an insult. You consistently suggest I walk into dangerous neighborhoods, hoping I get assaulted, because that will somehow “edumacate me”.

            You use language of aggression and violence. Our words reflect our intent. My words reflect a hatred of a broken ideology, and sorrow for people like you who wallow in that ideology.

            Your words reflect hatred of People based on skin color, and a complete absence of empathy or compassion for anyone other than you. You repeatedly have hoped for me to be subject to violent assault.

            You’re violent. If not physically (yet), then verbally.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            If you find people that disagree with you “violent” because they don’t hold the same opinions as you, yes, you are the effeminate girly boy I keep calling you.

            You are so obsessed with silencing those who disagree with you, when calling me a “racist”, “bigot”, “troll”, “sexist”, “puppy killer”, etc won’t work, you claim my words are oh, the horror, violent….and then expect me to back away from my opinions. Sorry little girl, aint gonna happen.

            What a pssy you are effeminate white lib boy. So offended by everything in the world. Must be tough being such a sensitive flower like yourself. Give me strength.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Were you bullied as a child? Did people call you featherhead? Red n! gger? WooHoo? Did say “how” and “wampum” and such?

            Is that why you are so obsessed with showing everyone what enormous balls you have by calling people effeminite on the internet?

            Well, I’m sure you have Very big balls, Bob! And Very big muscles too! Look at those big muscles! You’re so strong and manly! No one’s slick as BobSten no one’s quick as BobSten no one’s neck as incredibly Thick as BobSten’s! For there’s no man in town who’s as half as manly… As… BOBSTEN!

            You can have the sandbox, its all yours, because you are a Big Boy yes you are and you are so big and stwong and everyone else is soooooo skeeeeerd of you cause you so Big! Does Big Boy want his snuggie now before he has nap time?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            (Contd- more pending)

            There are plenty of people who abuse their power for any number of other screwed up reasons – greed, anger, s ex, etc. There are also plenty of racist people in this country. And blacks are an easy target – because they have always been the bottom of the totem pole, because of their unique experience with slavery, Jim Crow, and redlining. The psychology is not that hard – bullies target victims.

            It’ just mind boggling the lengths you will go to, in order to deny reality…

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            In your fairy tale land world view, most white people are in the KKK, go around beating up, denying jobs too, denying loans to, and doing everything in their power to oppress black people. “Bullies targeting the poor, weak, downtrodden black angel.”

            You just don’t live in reality. You must live in new england and have a neighborhood that is 98% white.

            I see people beat up, robbed, sucker punched, raped, and if the victim is white, the overwhelming majority of the time, I find the perp is either black or hispanic.

            Like here: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/11/04/nypd-81-year-old-man-beaten-robbed-after-withdrawing-money-from-queens-atm/

            You see stories like this, and no doubt think “that kkk cracker had it coming to him. This is payback for the white created institutional racism these poor black angels were exposed to.”

            You remind me of the beatles song strawberry fields forever. Specifically the line “living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.”

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I live in Chicago. Plenty of crime. A lot of it by black on black. What’s your point? It’s “in their genes”?

            You keep dancing out “you must hate whites” blah blah blah.

            I have never once said a thing about “whites.” I talk about racism- wherever it comes from. And you are pathologically incapable of separating the two.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            You said it’s in their genes. Try to not project so much.

            Yes, pragtard, you clearly have it in for whites. You are a duped racial marxist, thinking everyone should be equal (have equal outcomes). You believe that if outcomes are not equal, it’s a sign of “oppression” and “racism”.

            I don’t. I believe that people, on average get out of life what they put in to it. Lots of black people succeed, so do lots of hispanics, whites, and asians.

            On average, asians and indians and jews succeed more than white gentiles, blacks, or hispanics. I believe this is a result of education levels, work ethic, persistence, and so forth. Asians, indians, and jews know better than whites, blacks, or hispanics.

            I don’t believe asians, indians, and jews are “oppressing” other groups just because those groups are better off than the others.

            You don’t either. You only think that if WHITES are better off than another group it is de facto proof of “oppression” and so called “racism”. Thus, you have it in for whites. You’re inconsistent.

            If all blacks and nonwhites are persecuted by the white male tea party devils (as you effeminate left wing white girls posit), then there would be no black or hispanic success stories in this country. This is de facto proof that there is no “conspiracy” impacting all blacks and hispanics in this country.

            And, as I’ve said oodles of times, asians and indians make more on average than whites in this country. I seem to keep saying this because you are “pathologically incapable” of admitting that asians and indians make more on average than whites do in this country.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Sure – asians and indians make more than whites. There: “pathologically incapable” – wrong. Mwah wahhh. And sure, some groups will make more than others. Culture, inherited wealth, etc. all play a part.

            Now when can you separate my disgust with “racism” vs. your false allegations that I have anything against whites?

            And when can you acknowledge that blacks have had it worse, and still have it worse, than most others? Yes, Native Americans as well.

            NA – had their land stolen, had virtual genocide executed against them.

            Blacks – slavery. Jim Crow. Treated as less than human for 200+ years.

            There has been racism against plenty of other groups as well – Mexicans, Irish, Germans, Japanese, Chinese, etc. None were categorically enslaved and legally treated as a lesser version of human for 2 centuries. “Separate but equal” wasn’t about Asians and Indians. It was about black and white.

            If you’ve read my other posts, you know that I think marxism/ communism is a fools errand, as practically impossible as libertarianism. I don’t care if different groups do better/ worse than other groups because of inherent differences.

            But you continue to Ignore the studies that showed the fundamental bias against “black” names. I’d LOVE to see the same study executed with Asian names. I bet if it would be situational – send an “Asian” name like Jun, alongside Jim, and Jamal. Send a batch to high tech, and send a batch to finance. I bet Jun does Better than Jim in high tech. But in finance? No way. I bet Jamal will do worse than both regardless of industry.

            There are biases. We will never eliminate them all. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be working to eliminate those that are most damaging, most egregious, most fundamentally removed from Reality.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            There is more than enough on the books to eliminate the “most egregious” biases from occurring. There are lawyers everywhere willing to take on discrimination lawsuits. Just look at your local yellow pages.

            Finally, you are catching on. The bias in IT. You are likely right, someone named Jun or Patel would probably have a better shot than a white or black applicant.

            That is my point. Bias goes every way. It’s like ethnic and racial jokes. They bite because there is a kernel of truth about them. Just like employers. If they find asian and indian workers more intelligent, educated, experienced, calm, etc, they are more likely to hire those folks than than some random white guy or black guy.

            Bias? Absolutely. Done with malice by evil tea partiers that inherited the kkk gene from 3 generations ago? Hardly. Just managers making what seem to be sound business decisions. Will they always be right? NO! But, will they be right on average? Yes, that’s why they do it.

            Look ma, no “racial conspiracy”. You’re finally catching a whiff of reality pragtard. That’s very good. Maybe your hippie professor’s indoctrination is finally wearing off.

            Welcome back to reality.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Except when the data shows otherwise, as it does for drug stats. And the “bias” is actually the polar opposite to reality.

            And when the “bias” against blacks cuts across industries and across disciplines, as it does in the studies I mentioned with resumes. They didn’t focus on STEM jobs/ disciplines, it was across the board.

            And those biases exist for women as well. The same resume studies were run for female vs. male names. Striking difference in who was invited back, salaries offered, etc. Identical resumes, identical experience. Only difference was the name.

            Our culture sees women and blacks as inherently less able to do the same jobs as men and whites. That bias is real, it has been proven, and you have offered NOTHING to actual counter that argument.

            You haven’t even addressed the resume studies, except to say that might agree with my hypothesis that indian/ asian names might fare better in tech.

            But the study is still there. The data is there. It proves you wrong. Biases do not cut “both ways” when it comes to jobs for women and blacks. The bias is all negative. There is not an industry that favors blacks, and others that don’t. None favor blacks. The bias against them is across all.

            And your ugliness and selfishness and refusal to actually see reality is a part of the mindset that perpetuates it. And it’s sad.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Your anti-white animosity again slipped by with this comment:

            “Our culture sees women and blacks as inherently less able to do the same jobs as men and whites. That bias is real, it has been proven, and you have offered NOTHING to actual counter that argument.”

            Again, for the umpteenth time, whites make less money than indians and asians. YET, you only single out white people for criticism and veiling jealousy/animosity.

            You DON’T do the same for other successful groups. You do this incessantly.

            In addition, your whining about discrimination against women is frankly, lame. Women have it better in the west than they have anywhere else in the world. Women in japan make on average about 35% of what men make there. Africa, latin america, the rest of asia is the same….women face much, much, much less discrimination in the west.

            It’s like you are whining about being a millionaire when all of your neighbors are penniless. It’s annoying and wimpy.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Blacks and women make less than men and just about any other race, particularly whites, Asians, and Indians.

            There, fixed it. Happy?

            Still haven’t responded to the resume studies.

            Your point about women – “women elsewhere have it worse, so women here should be grateful!” That’s some Looney tunes logic there, meathead.

            And “whimpy”?!? Chalk that one up next to ” guff” as right out of the 50′s. Are you 75? What are you doing on the interwebs, gramps? Get back to the rocking chair on your porch. You know, the one draped in the confederate flag and swastika.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            No, i’m not happy. Because you will inevitably resort to your anti-white ways and always isolate whites to target for animosity and jealousy. You only pointed out other groups because i called you out on your clearly anti-white duplicity. White uncle tom.

            The resume studies about scientists? Oh, the one where even women “discriminated” against other women in favor of male applicants.

            Why would they do this pragtard? Why were women being biased towards men?

            No, my point about women is that everything is relative. If you drive a mercedes and whine because your neighbor has a lamborghini, but forget the fact that people everywhere else in the world drive yugos, context MATTERS. Dolt.

            There are many, many reasons women might make less in the US…not getting as many technical degrees: engineering, comp sci, etc….also that they tend to leave careers for child-rearing….much less likely for men. Many logical reasons. But you don’t like those. Because they contradict your black and white world view of the “white male oppressor” holding everyone down that isn’t a white male.

            It sure must be hard being offended for everyone else pragtard. It must be so difficult to “feel their hurt”. You are such a sensitive effiminate white boy, it’s so naive. Cute, really cute and snuggly, but naive and womanlike…….and conveniently ignoring the reality on the ground.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            BobStenvious troll is Bobvious

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            So you are fine with putting more blacks in jail, for the same crimes that whites don’t go to jail for? Do you every think that maybe your willingness to let blacks be treated dramatically worse by our justice system is simply your own personal racism?

          • Bob Sten

            No pragtard,

            I think that if blacks get caught committing more crimes than whites, then I expect them to be in jail more frequently than whites.

            Remember, blacks are in jail more than whites not because of race, they are in jail more than whites because “white institutional racism” prevents any blacks from getting ahead in america. And since blacks are so impoverished because of “white institutional racism”, they have absolutely no choice but to rob, murder, steal, and so forth, in order to survive.

            So, that’s why more blacks are in jail……because of their poverty. Right?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Again, a bunch of distraction and obfuscation, without addressing the core point:

            Blacks are arrested and convicted at higher rates for the same crimes as whites. That is it’s own, unique, separate problem, and it should be addressed. Equal time for equal crimes – that’s what I am advocating for. In my opinion, an easy way to address this would be to end the war on drugs – since the vast majority of these crimes are non-violent drug offenses. And let’s be honest, if blacks go to prison for 7 years for assault, vs. 5 years for whites… that’s just not as big of problem as blacks going to prison for 3-5 years for minor drug possession, and whites getting probation.

            Violent crimes send people to prison at a higher rate, and for longer, than non-violent crimes. As it should be. And if the sentencing for violent crimes has inherent racism, but everyone still goes to prison… it’s a much lesser problem than sending non-violent drug offenders to prison for any length of time, when they shouldn’t be there in the first place.

          • Bob Sten

            Sorry pragtard,

            I just disagree with ignoring all context when it comes to arrests between blacks and whites for drugs. Again, if whites use indoors more frequently, use drugs that cops aren’t as intense at cracking down on: marijuana, etc…there are a whole host of contextual, logical reasons why black might seem (at first glance) to be treated differently by judges in america.

            If your desire is to have a white person caught with one ounce of marijuana to get the same punishment as a black person with priors with one ounce of marijuana, that is NOT equal, and I don’t agree. Context is important pragtard, and deep inside you know it. It’s not always apples to apples.

            My personal belief is similar to yours in that I think there are way too many violent people on the streets (I see violent road ragers everyday on my way to work and on my way home every day here in LA), and way too many drug users in jail. I don’t think that users should be in jail if they have not stolen, etc to support their habit. I have people in my family that have had substance abuse problems, and they are good people, they are just destroying their lives. They should be getting their shi^ together, and jail doesn’t help them do that for the most part.

            Maybe on that we can agree. But I cannot agree with your claims that there is some societal conspiracy that is out to oppress all people of color. I cannot agree with that allegation because again, other groups “of color” don’t get arrested even at the rates that whites do.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Your argument is a strawman with no research. Sticking to one single drug, marijuana, blacks use it less and are arrested more, according to federally tracked data:

            http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/us/marijuana-arrests-four-times-as-likely-for-blacks.html

            And I’m not sure why you think a white person arrested with the drugs as a black person should do less time. Or conversely, a black person should do more time.

            But right now, including context like previous crimes committed, etc. blacks serve more time for the same crime, according to the U.S. sentencing commission:

            http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002

            Again, I have not said anything about a conspiracy. Nor do I think there is widespread racism against “people of color.” I think blacks were slaves. They were treated as sub-human. That belief structure persisted, openly, into the early 60′s. Many of the people openly proclaiming those beliefs are still alive today. And it’s safe to assume that Many of those people, even if they stopped openly spouting those beliefs, passed them on to their children.

            There are a lot of people alive today who still carry the psychological momentum of that belief structure. Even if society has been telling them, for 20-30 years, “hey, stop treating blacks like they are less than human!” the message hasn’t fully sunk in. And those people are not concentrated in one area/ profession. There are plenty of leftover closet anti-black racists all over the country in every job/ walk of life. Their parents hated blacks and looked down on them, and even as the world changed around them, they have had trouble fully letting go of that point of view. This country has a history of racism that was specifically aimed at blacks. Some of that still persists. It’s not “minorities are bad” it’s “blacks are subhuman.” Specifically blacks.

            It’s not a conspiracy. It’s leftover racism. And a lot of the people who carry/carried that are cops, politicians, bankers, etc. It infected their work, and if government let racism drive its policies (it did) government should address that and fix it.

            If government officials made poor decisions to over-target black communities for drugs, and “black” drugs (crack cocaine vs. powdered cocaine – these were treated dramatically differently for 30 years despite being the same drug just ingested differently, only equalized in 2010), government should address that, and make up for it.

            Government should clean up the messes it left and the mistakes it made.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            A dose of reality for you. What I see is the truth….you will go to this page and see a white screen with no words on it. The power of left wing mass hypnosis:

            http://qz.com/285610/indians-in-the-us-make-the-most-because-they-studied-the-most/

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I see this page. Different “races” (cultures) achieve different levels of education, and therefore employment/ income. How does this have any relation to the proven bias against “black” names – a bias that has nothing to do with individuals, because the resumes and names used were all fabricated, based on the most popular “white” and “black” names?

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            You act as thought blacks have no jobs. You act as though they never get hired.

            This is not the truth.

            Ask yourself a couple of things. Who would conduct a study to find if those with black sounding names got less of response than those with white sounding names? Who would do such a study, and why?

            Imagine a similar study conducted with hollywoood studios. Imagine they put in resumes for those with jewish sounding names and those with names that don’t sound jewish. Why would anyone conduct such a study? What do you think their agenda might be? Uh, maybe to “show” that jews get a break in hollywood over non-jews? And, someone conducting such a study might have such an agenda would rightfully be questioned about it by people like you. If one’s belief is that they think jews get a break in hollywood, then their study is flawed from the outset, as that is the “result” they WANT to find.

            The same applies, in my view, to the black resume “study”. Clearly, the belief before the study was that there was anti-black bias. Otherwise, why would one conduct the study? Therefore, that is the result that was bound to be found.

            Let’s take IT, and have applicants with indian sounding names versus those with names that don’t sound indian. If I suggested a study like this, left wingers like yourself would likely cry “foul”. You would claim I am doing my best to find evidence of pro-indian bias.

            This is the problem with most “studies” I have seen along these lines. Last year, I saw a report on Yahoo that said that blacks and hispanics were pulled over by police more than whites. ALL OF THESE STUDIES I HAVE EVER SEEN REPORTED BY THE MAINSTREAM LEFT MEDIA COMPARES WHITES TO ONLY BLACKS AND HISPANICS. Can you, even for one second imagine why asians aren’t included pragtard? Well, I’ll tell you why. It’s because they would have found that asians get pulled over less than whites. That would have blown the whole far left wing, “institutional racism everywhere against minorities” narrative out the window.

            People would realize that, if asians are….pulled over less than whites, make more money than whites, have higher levels of education than whites, have better health care than whites, have less heart disease than whites…..etc, then there CANNOT be some vast right wing conspiracy or white people imposed “institutional racism”.

            I phoned the gentleman that compiled the data for the yahoo report and asked him why asians weren’t included. He said “just because we didn’t”. I told him that the next year he does the study, he needs to include asians too REGARDLESS of what the results show. Does that seem like too much to ask pragtard?

            Let’s compare whites, and asians, and blacks, and hispanics in all mainsteam stories about: poverty levels, jobless levels, income levels, access to healthcare, and the like. I find left wingers only want to EVER compare whites to blacks and hispanics, because they are out to make whites look bad. I find this fraudulent and completely deceptive.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            A bunch of obfuscation and no counter points.

            Do asians get somewhat better treatment than whites? Maybe, never said otherwise. Do whites get better treatment than hispanics? Probably, sure. What about Jews? They were disparaged against, now are they on top? Indians? Eskimos?

            Here’s the funny thing – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT BLACKS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT THE BOTTOM, AND STILL ARE.

            They are treated worst of anyone. If we improved treatment of blacks – would that leave hispanics at the bottom? Maybe! Then we can focus on hispanics. After that, maybe jews, maybe even whites! Maybe at some point whites will be treated much worse than blacks! At that point, you will hear me championing “white rights” as loudly as I champion “black rights” right now.

            Until then – blacks are at the bottom. Start with the biggest/ worst problem first.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            You are hopelessly lost. Blacks are not at the bottom now, it’s hispanics. Blacks make more money on average than hispanics.

            You are a utopian progressive/communist pragtard. You think you can make everything perfect, make everyone equal, and make social harmony always and everywhere, if you just get the evil white male “racist” “other” out of the way.

            But this is delusional pragtard. Go to Somalia, or Ethiopia, or Indonesia, there is still suffering, want, inequality, and unfairness there…..and guess what, statistically speaking, NO “racist” WHITE MALES.

            The idea that you can make the world a utopia is a sham. You are living a pipe dream pragtard. You and white left wingers like you are not making the world a better place, you are making it worse. You and other left wing effeminate white males are giving blacks an excuse for failing. This will lead to more despair, more anger, more poverty, worse race relations, and so forth.

            I want black people to succeed in america, that way they can get off the white man’s nutsa$% blaming whitey for all their personal failures. The tax base would be improved, and the tax burden would go down. There is NO incentive for me to want blacks to fail. Quite the opposite. If they succeed, it’s beneficial to society on every level – economically, social harmony, etc. I know, in your warped left wing mind, I am out to “keep the black man down”, but I have no incentive to do that. Either do most whites. Left wingers project an awful lot of their paranoia and hate on the white male “other”.

            If you think that when whites are gone in the US that blacks will somehow magically become economic equals to asians and indians, I would like to see you provide some evidence that this will happen. Otherwise, it’s just speculation.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I’m not talking about average wages across the board – those are influenced by an enormous host of factors beyond race. And it’s apples/ oranges. Let’s go with stereotypes: should an asian computer programmer make more than a hispanic farm worker? Yes. Take away the “races” in that sentence and it holds true, so the races don’t change anything.

            I’m talking about apples to apples. Here’s an interesting study:
            http://freakonomics.com/2011/10/06/explaining-the-black-white-wage-gap/

            The short answer is that hiring for the same job with comparable backgrounds – blacks get paid less. And according to this study, pure racial discrimination accounts for 1/3 of that difference. Another big chunk accounts for the fact that blacks will take less money for the same job. That piece is on them – although the collective history of American treatment to blacks, and the racism that is still present, telling them on a regular basis “you are worth less than others” probably factors into that willingness to take less pay.

            But guess what? That’s not something government/ society can address or fix. If people are d icks to each other based on race – that’s their right in this country. But it’s not the right of employers to pay whites (or asians, or whoever) more than blacks for the same job.

            And it’s more than the wage gap. It’s the two studies I mentioned – mentoring in college, and accepting people for interviews.

            I should mention that there have been similar studies based on gender as well: same application, but with “John” vs. “Jennifer.” Otherwise identical.

            http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

            These are not wages, these are not “real world” job studies where context and 1M other variables can matter. It’s a controlled, randomized experiment, with identical data, and one changed variable – the name. Done with white vs. black and male vs. female. Should they include Asians? Sure. Hispanics too. And Indians, Native Americans, etc. I’d love to see that.

            Because what these studies prove is exactly what I’ve been saying: racism is still there. And plenty of people in power (professors, employers, etc. all have power over their students, employees, etc.) have that closet racism inside them. And we’re not going to change that. But again, given that we are supposed to be in a “meritocracy” where if you work your as s off and do well – that’s ALL that should matter. Not the fact that you are black, or a woman. Just how hard do you work, and how good is that work.

            And, sadly, these studies Prove that is not all that matters. The good jobs, internships, raises, etc. are ALSO determined by racism. And I say stamp that s hit out. Level the playing field, and make it truly fair – the best man/ woman wins. Period.

            I don’t give a s hit if this makes everyone economically equal. That will never happen anyway. And I think there is a separate argument to be had about income inequality that has nothing to do with race (plenty of other threads where I’ve commented on that – capitalism favors the rich, based on growth rates of wealth vs. income).

            This conversation was never about equality of life, or wealth, or any of that. There should be equality of OPPORTUNITY. And right now, there is not.

            Is the equality of OPPORTUNITY even worse for hispanics than blacks? I haven’t seen any data suggesting that. If that’s the case though – then yes, address that first. Start with whoever has the sh ittiest hand, fix that, then move up the chain.

            Either way, as I’ve said in all my posts – racism exists. It is still here, and it guides peoples decisions, and it robs blacks (and likely other groups, but the data still seems to suggest blacks get it the worst) of OPPORTUNITIES. Opportunities that they should be able to earn based on their work and merit and nothing else. Opportunities that they are denied Because of their race, despite their work and merit.

            That needs to be fixed. And again, government has contributed to this problem. Government should help fix it.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            My turn:

            I disproved your hypocrisy claim. You ignored that, and admitted no fault.

            You still ignore Jim Crow, redlining, etc.

            I offered solutions, to those specific problems, after you whined about it endlessly. You ignored that, as I could have predicted.

            I offered credible studies (now with references). You discredited those studies without even looking them up. Complete denial/ bias/ disconnection from reality.

            In short – you simply want to cover your ears and ignore the real problems, while focusing on the anecdotal and statistically tiny “reverse racism” problems as if those are a larger pattern. You’re like a kid screaming about having his bike stolen, while the next town is being systematically destroyed by ISIS. Sure, I’m sorry your bike was stolen. But there are bigger problems, and they are not yours.

            Selfishness/ Narcissism.

            Sad for you.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Redlining. Errr, you mean when a business leaves a majority black area because, I dunno, they get robbed too many times? Uh, blame the robbers pragtard, not the business owner that just wants to make money…and doesn’t want to get killed. Why don’t you open a business in detroit before you open your mouth? You speak from a position of complete ignorance.

            Jim crow. Seriously? I spoke to this, but apparently you are too thick to make the connection. I said that if Asians and Indians can come to this country with the same wealth as lower or middle income blacks, and then bypass both blacks AND whites economically within a couple of generations, this refutes the left wing narrative that some blacks are perpetually in poverty because of the past (ie jim crow, etc.).

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Nope, i mean redlining:

            http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

            Allow me to introduce you to a handy dandy tool called “the google.” It helps you find answers on that dispell ignorance.

            Im summary, redlining was the systematic denial of mortgages based on categorization of geographic areas as uninsurable by federal government based solely on the presence of residents with black (not asian or indian) skin color. It ran into the late 70s.

            Jim crow did not impact Asians or indians- it solely impacted blacks, and ran until 1964.

            So which of these is your argument:

            1) there are no blacks alive today who lost wealth or family members due to these policies! Everyone knows blacks don’t live past 40!
            2) just because the federal government condoned murder, theft of wealth, and denial of equal rights, doesn’t mean we should find a way to pay these people back for what they lost!
            3) other races had it hard too!
            4) I deny any of this happened! Also the holocaust, moon landing, and evolution! I don’t let sissy “scientists” and “researches” tell me they know more than me!

            Please, do tell.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            I’ve told you this at least 3 times. This stuff (jim crow, etc) happened in the past. Many Asians and Indians come to this country with less than many black americans. YET, after a couple of generations, these Asians and Indians bypass both blacks and whites in income levels.

            Thus, if your argument is that blacks are starting from a low economic level due to jim crow, etc, my argument is that Asians and Indians are also starting from a low economic level when they immigrate here.

            Yet NONWHITE Asians and Indians thrive, while many blacks still wallow in poverty. Just like the blacks and Indians in Guyana. The Indians worked hard and bypassed the blacks, JUST LIKE THEY DO HERE. The blacks stayed impoverished, and blamed their poverty on the hardworking Indians.

            It’s not about the starting line. It’s about what you do when you run the race. Indians and Asians run their butz off, while many blacks seem to run backwards and then blame their losing the race on white people.

            Do you get it yet? Please tell me you understand my point? I don’t know how to simplify this for you any further…..

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            So you chose a little of door #2, and a little of door #3. At least you’re not predictable!

            “Hey, sorry I stole your money last week. But man, that’s like, totally, in the past. Let bygones be bygones, right? Plus, I know I also joined a group that ran you out of the neighborhood, and made you sell your house for half what you paid for it, but, let’s just forget that, OK? And I know your new house, well, you couldn’t get a mortgage, so you borrowed from the seller, and he used a predatory lending practice that quadrupled your payments when it was 90% paid, so even though you worked 3 jobs to pay off that 90%, you were left with nothing. But, that is totally yesterdays news. And now you’re 75, and too old to get a mortgage, and so you’re stuck renting in the slums until you die, but its OK!

            There’s an Indian guy on the next street who immigrated here with nothing, and didn’t have to face redlining or Jim crow, and was able to buy a house! See, he could do it, why couldn’t you? Oh, because someone stole your land in the south, and then lynched your wife and the judge refused to even hear your case? And the sherrif ran you out of town? And then you came here, where all that other bad stuff happened.

            Well, clearly this is your fault for not working a 4th job. Because, you know , you’re lazy, its just in your genetics.”

            I am honestly impressed by the level of willful ignorance you have displayed here. Truly, its magnificent. I feel like the ghost of Christmas past could walk you through the decades and centuries of black american history, and you’d just be covering your eyes, going “nope nope nope nope didn’t happen.”

            Either way, glad to see you are incredibly empathetic to people just like you, or people you have decided are not lazy and unworthy of your compassion.

            Enjoy your might, narcissist troll!

            Oh, and Asians got reparations. So did native Americans. Not that it changed anything, or made up for the past. Still, they probably deserved it more than blacks, which is why they got it, and blacks didn’t. Amirite?

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Jim crow is long gone. So, why are you claiming Indians and Asians “didn’t have to deal with jim crow”? Blacks don’t have to deal with jim crow either!

            “Predatory loans”? So, the no good crackas are all the cause of this? I’m a no good cracka in your view, and I have nothing to do with banks. Why are you blaming whites for what banks do? Are all white people bankers? Are all white people upper management in banks that made these decisions?

            Lots of people got loans because banks were forced to loosen their lending standards because pinkos like you thought everyone should own homes. All this did was drive up prices and create a bubble. So housing became less affordable thanks to economic illiterates like yourself, barney frank and chris dodd. Don’t cry about “predatory loans” without condemning those liars with liar loans that claimed they could pay back money when they never really could. And don’t cry about “predatory loans” without condemning those politicians (of all colors I might add) that insisted that lending be loosened up so people didn’t have so much skin in the game (they wanted more “people of color” boo hoo, to own homes).

            “Redlining”? Uh, maybe you should blame the people that cause redlining….the thugs, criminals, thieves, etc that make businesses want to leave an area. I know, I know, the white male “other” is responsible for every wrong in your view.

            Plenty of poor areas that are mainly hispanic or white deal with the same thing.

            You’re funny pragtard, you claim that crime is a result of poverty, then you claim that blacks are in poverty more frequently than nonblacks, then you claim that blacks don’t commit more crimes than nonblacks. LOL. Then if I show more crimes coming from blacks (from FBI stats, etc), you will claim, it’s not racial, it’s just a result of black poverty.

            So which is it, do blacks commit more of some crimes (proportionally) or don’t they?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Jim Crow ended in 64. Plenty if people alive today born in 30′s and 40′s who lost land, homes, and family members through Jim Crow. Courts failed them. Reopen those cases, extend statute of limitations, and provide government lawyers to file civil suits on their behalf.

            Redlining had nothing to do with crime. If 10 well off blacks moved into an affluent suburb, it was redlined. This divided whites from blacks- who wants their property value to drop? Ran to 74- many many alive today lost homes and wealth to this. Solution- same as Jim Crow. Civil suits against individuals.

          • Bob Sten

            Pragtard,

            Civil suits against who? Dead people? For dead people?

            People that were responsible for this in the 70′s were likely in their 40′s or 50′s when they did it. So, they are likely in their 80′s or 90′s now (ie, more often than not, dead). You want to sue dead people? How far do you think that will go?

            Tons of Irish immigrants got screw$% in the American civil war. Should we have lawsuits for those folks as well? Can we blame all the failures of failing Irish Americans on the fact that dead Irish people got the short end of the stick back then?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I specifically talked about people still living. Your “dead people” argument is a weak, lazy straw man. You can do better. Or maybe you can’t.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,
            Well then, the people still alive aren’t probably very numerous. You think having lawsuits against a few old, feeble bankers is going to make a dent in black poverty levels?
            Wow, you’re a genius.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            No. I think those lawsuits will matter to the people who are alive, and on the receiving end of them. I think they will also be symbolic – and symbolism has incredible power. As I think you well know.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            How is this symbolism going to matter? A couple thousand people win some judgements, what exactly will that change with:

            1. black poverty levels
            2. How many blacks and ALL white left wingers blame all of the problems of the world on the evil white male “other”?

            I don’t see this symbolism changing item one or two. So, what WILL it do in your view? Make blacks not have a chip on their shoulder any more?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            What did reparations for internment camps do for Asian Americans?

            According to you:
            1) Blacks don’t need our help at all – all those problems are past!
            2) The blacks who were impacted by those problems… meh, NOT WORTH IT. Because there aren’t enough of them .

            Enjoy your cognitive dissonance tea.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard

            Finally, you catch on. I truly believe blacks don’t need the “help” cowardly, effeminate white left wingers like you offer.

            You tell them they fail because of white male “tea party racists”. You tell them they fail because of the evil “racist Koch brothers”. You tell them they fail because the cops, the liberal judges, the librarians, the store owners, the landlord, the manager at Chucky Cheese, and everyone else is out to keep them down and make them fail.

            Black people don’t need your kind of mentally debilitating “help”. People like you disgust me. Black people need to see that they can succeed if they follow the model of the asians and indians. Through education, drive, and persistence. They don’t need effeminate white male left wingers to succeed. All they need is their brains, their brawn, their integrity, their faith, and their energy. With all these, success will come….inevitably.

            You offer excuses and continued failure. Blacks only need themselves to succeed, not you. You have a messiah complex. All white left wingers have this complex. You’re just another arrogant white male that thinks he is more important and powerful than he really is.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Who are you having this conversation with? Are you even capable of reading my posts?

            Or have you simply decided to stop reading and just rant?

            I wasn’t asking rhetorically about the reparations for Asian Americans. It was far too late, and it wasn’t enough money. But it was something. And it was a symbol. And it did matter.

            I am not talking about black “failure.” I don’t think every black should succeed, just because they are black. As I’ve said, repeatedly – there is a history of racism in this country, and it is particularly pointed at blacks. It harmed them in very specific, measurable ways. It continues to harm them in very specific, measurable ways. And the government contributed to that harm.

            That sh it should be fixed. And the government should clean up it’s own mess, and fix it’s own mistakes.

            If the government helps those still alive recover what they lost from the thieves that stole it – that’s enough to address the loss. If everyone gets equal opportunities (or close enough), if we see that race stops guiding arrest rates, sentencing, resume acceptance rates, internship acceptance rates, equal pay for equal jobs, mortgage interest rates (with the current trend of reverse red-lining), etc. etc. then that’s good enough to address the imbalance in opportunities.

            Utopia? Not going to happen. “Helping” every black? Or white? Or hispanic? Not going to happen. Addressing the theft? Addressing the existing imbalance? That HAS to happen – if we are going to continue to claim to be a democracy, a land of opportunity, a land of equal rights and freedom and all that nice stuff we put on our dollar bills and postcards and we even half believe – IF “we” are white.

            Government cleans up it’s mess. Government makes da mn sure that people in power don’t abuse that power along racial (or gender, or nepotistic, etc.) lines. Equal opportunity. Meritocracy.

            That’s good enough. If these factors are equalized, and there is still disparity? Meh – that’s on the individual groups to figure out.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            Redlining had nothing to do with crime? It wasn’t a business decision?

            So, it was a “racist cabal” of evil white males all agreeing (all over america mind you), that they should do as much as possible to make sure black areas failed economically?

            How would that benefit them financially? Why would they do such a thing if there was virtually zero economic gain from it?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            While slavery was still around, we had the Black Codes. Post Civil War, the same people who fought for slavery, and who fundamentally believed blacks were sub-human, below whites, to be treated as property and not worthy of rights – passed the Jim Crow laws.

            Do you think they simply dropped their beliefs about Blacks because slavery was abolished?

            When the civil rights movement happened, and Jim Crow was overturned in ’64 and ’65, these same people fought civil rights, based on the same belief system (blacks are somehow fundamentally lesser than whites). Many, many people were openly racist in their fight.

            Did they suddenly stop being racist because the laws changed?

            Redlining was already happening, and civil rights didn’t stop it. It was officially blocked in ’68, but loopholes were found for another 6 years or so. Those were closed by the Disclosure Act of ’75.

            Maybe that law was the one that did it – NOW the people who had been racist for decades… just stopped.

            Racism that had existed for CENTURIES… suddenly disappeared because of a few laws passed?

            Orrrrr, the same people who had been racist all along… were still racist. And the ones who were racist, and in power, let those racist beliefs be one of the factors that guided their use of that power.

            But hey, maybe you’re right! Maybe everyone stopped being racist the second the Voting Rights Act was passed! And it all magically… went away.

            And people born in 35-45, who would be 70-80 today, and who would have been attempting to buy homes in the midst of all this, and who lost enormous wealth (and who the courts actively ignored) – those people should definitely not be given help to sue the people who took their wealth from them. Because the last thing we would want is old blacks to regain stolen wealth that they could pass on to their children.

          • Bob Sten

            Pragtard,

            So this cabal of racist whites were redlining because they were racist…..but now those same racist whites make sure there is affirmative action, special loans for minority businesses, and preferences given to minority college applicants just because of their race?

            Wow, apparently these white racists can’t make up their minds as to whether they want to hurt or help blacks…..

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            You group all whites into one bucket. I don’t. There were plenty of racists. The skin color of the racists doesn’t particularly matter; their racism does.

            So you’re agreeing that these racists all suddenly had a change of heart because of a few laws?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Oh, and “zero economic gain”? Do you honestly believe that any bankers who were racist, and willing to bend rules for “the blacks”, gained Nothing by using predatory lending tactics? You’re right – loan sharks barely squeak by. They make less than walmart employees. Sure.

          • Bob Sten

            Pragtard,

            My question is, how did these bankers gain economically by redlining?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            And are you actually interested in the answer? Or just waiting to find some reason to discredit it?

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            I’m waiting for you to obfuscate, or avoid answering.

            I didn’t have to wait long I see….

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Gotcha, so in reality, you are just waiting for another bit of fuel to try to disparage.

            Blacks were locked out of traditional mortgages by redlining (already mentioned) and restrictive covenants.

            Restrictive covenants:
            http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1067.html

            So they bought “on contract” – direct from the seller, who lent them the money to buy their own house. These direct contracts were written by the sellers, and typically included unpredictable balloon payments, predatory interest rates, and other “outs” by which the lender (and seller) could make the black pay much higher rates for the “mortgage” on the building than a white with identical credit would. Then, when the mortgage was nearly paid off, they would exercise one of the “outs” (sudden balloon payment of the last 10%, due within 10 days!), and they would reclaim the property, with the black losing all equity.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/books/review/Arsenault-t.html

            Fairly straightforward con – and it was enabled by federally backed redlining, restrictive covenants barring blacks from neighborhoods, etc.

            And as a fallback, if the black actually new the law, and fought, the courts were on the side of the predatory lenders/ owners/ slumlords. And they could (and did) resort to violence as well.

            Why is this all so hard for you to admit? These things happened, they were based on race, and they happened primarily (and in many cases, solely) to blacks.

            If we are a fair and just society, run by rule of law and meritocracy, then to follow those principals means identifying when these mass injustices happened, and addressing them. And that would mean admitting that the courts failed blacks – specifically blacks – as did the federal, state and local governments. And that many, many people, some racist, some just greedy and opportunistic, profited from that failure. And the government, to follow the basic principals of this country – should address that failure, and undo that profit and return it to those from whom it was stolen.

            This is not rocket surgery. You’re smart enough to understand all this.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            So, again, I ask, if all of this is done. Perps (the ones that are still alive and actually personally did something wrong) are forced to pay for it. And the victims (not all black people, just the ones that can prove damage) that are still alive get this redress.

            What if after all this, blacks still fail economically disproportionately as compared to asians, whites, and indians?

            Will you still have a major hair up your backside about black poverty? Will you still be whining incessantly about it?

            When exactly do you start to look at the choices individual black people made and factor that in as part of the explanation for black poverty rates? Never? Has black poverty always been, and will it always be “whitey’s fault” in your mind?

            If that is the case, then you are treating black people as powerless children that can never do anything on their own.

            Also, white people are a dwindling population in the united states. When the US is majority hispanic and asian, what exactly do you think they will do about black poverty? Do you think they will care? Do you think they will have affirmative action for black people? Or, do you think they will be tribal and look after their own….just like people all around the world do?

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            I don’t whine – and I haven’t said anything about black “poverty.” That has been you. And the points I have made about blacks have nothing to do with erasing “black poverty.” Again, those are your words. You are assigning opinions and arguments to me that I have not voiced.

            I have talked about “inequality.” That is separate. If everyone gets the same chances (education, fair treatment under law, same chance for job with same resume, same pay for same work, etc.) then I don’t give a damn if some group does more poorly than another. That’s on them.

            But right now, it’s not a meritocracy. The cards are stacked, racially, the worst against blacks.

            When the odds are fairly even across the board (they will never be perfectly even, but they could be a d amn sight better than they are now) – then it’s done. And to your question – if blacks still fair worse, economically and criminally – then it’s up to them to change that.

            Right now – there are large factors that the government directly created/ contributed to. Those should be addressed, by the government. Government should clean up it’s own mistakes.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            I like how progressive-communists cloak malarkey as “equality”.

            I didn’t have equal opportunity. I didn’t have the same options as some kid that grew up in Manhattan. I didn’t have tutors helping me prepare for the SAT. I didn’t have an uncle that gave a large endowment to harvard, allowing me a back door in to that university. I had to work full time while I went to college. I didn’t have a rich daddy paying my way.

            So, do you think I’m “oppressed” because I didn’t have the same chances/options/opportunities as more fortunate individuals?

            Do you think taxpayers should pay for everyone to have the same chances that rich kids get? Do you think rich kids should be restricted from getting tutors, etc if other kids aren’t provided the same?

            After all, what exactly do you mean by “inequality”? What are your specific solutions to address how unequal young people are based on the resources they have available to them, connections, and so forth?

            You really think you can make everyone equal? Tell me how Mao…

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Do I think you were “oppressed”? No.

            Do I think that massive inherited wealth violates the concept of “meritocracy”? Yes.

            Do I think it’s possible (or even desirable) to completely level the playing field – so that there is NO inherited wealth/ opportunities? No.

            I have already addressed the inequalities I was specifically referencing. Drug arrests, internships, job applications, etc. etc. These are specific problems that could be addressed.

            The one area you mention is education – I do think our education system is broken. And several European countries seem to do it better, without removing the ability to still pay for private schooling, tutors, etc. Property taxes are not the best way to determine school quality. And summer breaks are anachronistic and crazy. And not everyone needs to go to college – see Germany’s technical apprenticeship approach as an incredibly practical alternative.

            But we are getting off topic. Blacks have had specific things taken from them. That should be addressed. Blacks have specific inequalities in other situations. Those should be addressed.

            Complete equality is not possible, nor desirable, nor necessary. But the removal of systemic “artificial” inequalities? That is possible, desirable, AND necessary if we are going to claim to be the “best nation on earth” and “land of the free” and “life liberty pursuit of happiness” and “all men created equal” etc. etc.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            So I answered all your points… and you ran. Big Surprise!

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            In summary:

            1) Racism still exists, and has still existed for the past several decades. It has not been magically erased.
            2) There are number of specific harms done to blacks (disparate prison sentences for non violent drug possession, redlining, etc.) that impacted blacks who are STILL ALIVE.
            3) Because these harms depended on the systematic support of the government, the government holds some responsibility for them.
            4) The government could address that responsibility, and create some redress for these harms, by supporting blacks in legal battles to undo these harms.
            5) Those legal battles would happen on an individual level. The government could even charge the losers for legal fees – on top of damages. There need not be a cost to taxpayers.
            6) Those who stole and profited… would lose that profit.
            7) For those who lost something without another profiting (non violent drug offenders) the government could redress those problems with programs designed to help those people progress towards a better life (immediate release, training programs, low interest student loans, low interest housing loans, etc. etc.)

            All that sounds like to me is a fair and just system. Not some “helping hand” for blacks who are “too lazy to work” or some such nonsense.

            To be clear – I am not about making things easier for any one group. I am about making things equally easy/ hard for every group.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            My question was: How did these bankers gain economically by redlining?

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            I’m missing empathy?

            You have no empathy for the white guy in Detroit that was beaten almost to death by blacks when he pulled over to help a boy he accidentally hit with his vehicle.

            You have no empathy for the white people that have been murdered by blacks in the “knockout game”.

            You have no empathy for the dozens of whites who have been victimized by blacks screaming “this is payback for trayvon”.

            You have no empathy for the white kid who was held down by a black and Hawaiian kid and tortured (burned with cigarettes) because they wanted to “get back at whites for slavery”).

            You have no empathy for the white marine and his black wife that were murdered by other black marines (that clearly were outraged that a black woman dared to marry a white man).

            You have no empathy for the white girls that were viciously assaulted on my street by blacks screaming “get those white bit%^&%”.

            You have no empathy for the white woman in white plains new york who was stabbed to death by a black man in the same parking garage I was in a week before…the black guy said he wanted to find any white person to kill.

            You have no empathy for Brad Heyka, Heather Muller,
            Aaron Sander, Jason Belfort, and his girlfriend.

            You have no empathy for the dozens of young white girls in the UK that have been gang raped by muslim pedophiles.

            You have ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPATHY for the young white kids that live in majority black and majority hispanic neighborhoods that regularly get bullied, beaten, and humiliated because they are white. These kids have to live in these neighborhoods that you are too chickensh&% to live in, and they bear the burden of the anti-white animosity that you and other pathetic effeminate white left wingers have created in schools, university, and the media. Your words have meaning, and you don’t bear the costs of your words. These vulnerable white kids do.

            I have empathy for all these people pragtard. But you don’t. You only have empathy for the black guy that spends his days drinking malt liquor and going nowhere. You consider him “an oppressed victim”.

            As the black man said, at least black liberals do what they think is good for their people. White liberals do the exact opposite of what is good for their people.

            You lack empathy for your own people pragtard. You will say you do, but you don’t. Deep inside, you think the whites of today should be “paid back” for the bad things that a minority of whites did in the past. You consider that “justice”. However, I fail to see how victimizing kids of today helps dead people, or how it punishes their dead victimizers.

            You believe in intergenerational blanket guilt. I do not.

            I have more empathy than you ever will. You just cannot see who the victims are today. Where do you even live? I find this white effeminate left wing lunacy coming especially from places that are like 98% white (like Maine and Vermont).

            Get out a bit pragtard. Move to Inglewood ca. Get yourself a REAL WORLD education.

          • Pragmatic Squirrel

            Definite empathy for the guy in Detroit.

            Knockout game was not real, overblown by (leftist!) media:
            http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/montgomery.asp

            Don’t know who you are talking about screamed at about Trayvon – these seem to be figments of your imagination.

            Definite empathy for white kid burned by black & Hawaiian.

            Definite empathy for murdered marine.

            Etc. etc.

            In short – sure, I absolutely have empathy for anyone victimized by someone else. I just don’t limit my empathy to “white people” like you do.

          • Bob Sten

            pragtard,

            The knockout game was not real? You are a liar:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzURx_DvLwk

            Multiple people have been murdered in this “game”. Dozens seriously injured. I work with law enforcement on occasion, and I have spoken with police captains in the midwest that says these knockout games are frequent and vicious.

            But I guess all the videos we have seen on “far right wing” msnbc, cnn, and local news are all fake? Maybe set up on a sound stage by the far right wingers in hollywood? Definitely another white male “conspiracy” to oppress so called “minorities”, right?

            Blacks screaming “payback for trayvon” while assaulting random white people:

            http://swimmingagainstthecurrentdotcom.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/punks-beat-elderly-man-in-racist-trayvon-payback-attack/

            http://quitenormal.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/chicago-black-guy-beats-up-white-guy-as-payback-for-trayvon/

            http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/04/24/justice-for-trayvon-alabama-man-in-critical-condition-after-mob-beating/

            http://pjmedia.com/blog/justice-for-trayvon-15-whites-beaten-by-gangs-of-black-thugs-so-far/

            I have empathy for all innocent victims pragtard. I hate bullies. You only hate white bullies.

  • Bob Sten

    pragtard,

    You probably also believe that fairy tale nonsense in “a people’s history of the us” by howard the fraud zinn too, don’t you?

    This is not how all people “evolved”. You cannot use the bushmen and say it applies to everyone in the world.

    Look at the aztec of mexico. They were shake down artists that made their indian neighbors pay tribute in cotton, or jade, or corn, or other materials. Those tribes that were resource poor were forced to give some of their children and women to the aztec. Aztec society was highly socially stratified. And remember, you europhobic pragtard, this was all precolumbian!

    Similarly, Inca society was highly stratified. Punishment was harsh among the Inca, those that stole frequently had their hands cut off and were forced to stand in front of a city as a warning to other potential thieves.

    The tribes of the pacific northwest were extremely resource and wealth conscious (precolumbian, again – so don’t try to blame the white male “other” for this – I know that is your first instinct, being a brainwashed effeminate white male). Chiefs would often use slaves as boat ramps for the visits of other chiefs. A chief would sometimes kill his slaves and lay them on the beach, so as to show the visiting chief that losing his material wealth was no big deal to him.

    So, don’t try that ignorant left wing tripe of pretending that all peoples are like the bushmen, or that only those peoples contacted by the evil european “other” were “impure”.

    Remember, I’m part native, fool, so I am interested in REAL indian history, not some fairy tale, sterilized left wing fabricated version.

    Geesh your are an ignorant fool. You use every left wing cliche I’ve ever heard. What are you, a junior sociology major at UC Berzerkely?

    • Pragmatic Squirrel

      Aztecs and Incans civilizations did not exist 15k years ago. They fall into the post-bushmen period of civilization.

      Really not clear what point you’re making here. Civilization is violent? Yep, glad we are agreed on that. Its impossible to go back to Bushmen era utopia? Yup, agreed there too.

      My only point with the Bushmen is that their system lasted long enough that it drove evolution. Altrusim, generosity, communal living- these are evolved traits with a 200k+ history. Selfishness and violence? These were aberrations for most of human history. And are unnecessary.

      • Bob Sten

        pragtard,

        OK, give me your car, bank account, and house. Your greed and selfishness are unnecessary.

        If you don’t give it up willingly, then the government should force you to share with me. Right?

      • Bob Sten

        pragtard,

        Violence is an “aberration” for most of human history? Uh, NO!

        We are a great ape. Look at non-vegan great apes….the chimp for instance. Very violent, very aggressive.

        You have NO proof that we are closer to bonobos, gorillas, or orangutans, much less gibbons.

        Our history as primates for millions of years is one of violence. I know it contradicts what your far left wing professors brainwashed you to believe, but just remember, your far left professors only have a history of 50 years of so. Violent primates – millions of years.

        Slight differences.

        Toodles, lack of noodles….

  • Bob Sten

    pragtard,

    If the bushmen were on land that the ancient aztecs wanted, the bushmen would have their hearts removed, their heads taken, and their corpses thrown down pyramids.

    This is why tribalism works and the bushman method doesn’t.

    It’s about competition pragtard.

    Thus the egalitarian san will eventually be erased….as will the egalitarian and idiotic effeminate white male left winger.

    • Pragmatic Squirrel

      Aztecs descended from Bushmen. Who themselves migrated away from southern Africa, and turned violent- likely due to a sudden scarcity of resources.

      I already said the Bushmen system would not work today. And i made no argument for egalitarianism. I support meritocracy. Glad to hear you agree with me?

      • Bob Sten

        pragtard,

        You can’t support meritocracy and also support so called “affirmative action”.

  • Bob Sten

    pragtard,

    Have you ever looked at DUI arrests? It appears that whites are arrested more frequently than blacks (see example from Kentucky).

    http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/pdf/ct5.pdf

    By your Quixotic “logic”, this is “evidence” that the police are “oppressing” white people by arresting them at higher rates than blacks.

    If all officers are “lazy, biased”, but as you stated “not part of some giant anti-black conspiracy”, why are arrest rates for violent crimes higher for blacks, but arrest rates for DUI lower for blacks? Might it not be that blacks drink and drive less, but commit violent crimes more frequently……while whites drive drunk more often but commit violent crimes less frequently (per capita).

    This isn’t rocket science now Don Quixote.