The Costs of the Environmentalism Cult

environmentalism

California is in the third year of a drought, but the problem isn’t a lack of water. The snowfall in the Sierra provides enough to help us ride out the years of drought. All we need to do is store it. But California hasn’t built a new dam in 35 years. Worse than that, every year we dump 1.6 million acre-feet of water––about enough to serve 3.2 million families for a year––into the Pacific Ocean in order to protect an allegedly “endangered” 3-inch bait-fish called the Delta smelt. California’s $45 billion agricultural industry, a global breadbasket that produces nearly half of U.S.-grown fruits, nuts and vegetables, is set to take a huge hit, with hundreds of thousands of acres left fallow and the San Joaquin Valley region’s already sky-high 17% unemployment destined to increase.

Meanwhile President Obama continues to dither on approving the Keystone XL Pipeline from Canada. The latest in a string of environmental impact studies since 2008 has determined that the pipeline poses no threat to the environment. Indeed, it will lessen spills and pollution by transporting oil by pipeline rather than by more risky trains. Nor will abandoning the pipeline reduce carbon emissions, as the 830,000 barrels of oil will simply go someplace else, most likely China, the world’s leader in carbon emissions. What will happen is up to 40 thousand American jobs will not be created, and dependence on imported oil from hostile countries like Venezuela will not be reduced. Meanwhile because the pipeline crosses our border with Canada, Secretary of State John Kerry, a long-time environmentalist scold who as a Senator in 2012 voted against an amendment approving the pipeline, will probably end up making the decision.

These are just two of numerous examples of how environmental policy harms our economic interests. Empowered by the federal Environmental Protection Agency, these policies cost the economy $353 billion a year, according to the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and untold billions more in oil wells left undrilled on federal lands and infrastructure like dams not built because of the numerous pettifogging environmental impact studies that look for risks that are the equivalent of the danger that a man could drown in one-eighth of an inch of water.

Before around 1960, anybody other than a crank would have been flabbergasted at such suicidal stupidity and policies one would expect from an enemy or a rival. An illiterate farmer in the 19th century knew you had to husband natural resources and protect them for the future, but he would never have idealized a harsh natural world that only stubbornly and by dint of hard labor produces sustenance for humans. But that was before environmentalism evolved into a cult for an affluent society of people so rich that they can take for granted their protection from nature by technology and industrialism, all the while it demonizes a modern world those same people couldn’t live without for five seconds.

What makes this cult particularly dangerous, however, is its patina of science that suggests such attitudes are not an expression of a sentimentalized romantic nature-love, but rather the fruit of reason and scientific fact. But behind all the quantitative data and mathematically based research lies a fundamental incoherence about humans and their relationship to nature. As usual, behind bad policy lies bad philosophy.

The central mistake of the romantic environmentalist is to gloss over the profound differences between human beings and the natural world. We are not “natural” creatures. What makes us human is everything that exists nowhere else in the natural world: the mind, language, consciousness, memory, higher emotions, and culture. None of these exist even in the highest primates. Apes do not craft tools, marry, name their offspring, bury their dead, live by laws or customs, or respect inalienable rights. This radical uniqueness of human identity means that we do not have a “harmonious” relationship with nature, but an adversarial and conflicted one. The natural world is the alien, inhuman realm of blind force, indifferent to suffering, death, and beauty. It is meaningless, for only humans bestow meaning on the world. And that meaning reflects our knowledge that each of us is unique, a creature that appears only once, and that each of us must die.

Most important, unlike everything else in the natural world ruled by necessity, humans are free. As French critic Luc Ferry writes, “Man is free enough to die of freedom.” And from that freedom comes morality, all the things we are obligated to do or not do, particularly in regard to our fellow humans. The nexus of consciousness of our individual uniqueness and necessary death, our freedom to choose to act against nature’s determinism, and our moral obligations to one another is what makes us unnatural––and human. Nature is our home only by dint of our alteration of it to make it suitable for such creatures, and that process is one of conflict and struggle against the brutal forces of extinction and destruction that have characterized the natural world for the 3.6 billion years life has existed.

The unnatural uniqueness of humans makes talk of “harmony” with nature the Disneyesque fantasy of rich people protected from nature’s cruelty by a high-tech civilization. Thus the proper view of nature should be how do we interact with our world and use its resources in order to benefit the greatest number of humans today, and to ensure that those who come after us have the resources to live well. Every environmental policy should start with that assumption. And we should determine the goods we want from nature––from economic development to the preservation of natural beauty––through the democratic process, not by the diktats of self-selected elites who mask their preferences as science rather than taste, and enlist the coercive power of the federal government to impose those subjective preferences at the expense of the well-being of everybody else.

As it is today, the biggest beneficiaries of our civilization indulge a sentimentalized nature love the cost of which is borne by others. They attack the technology and the free-market economic system that have created the unprecedented wealth, comfort, and leisure that they take for granted, but that their policies deny to others less privileged. The irrationalism and hypocrisy of modern environmentalism is a “black-market religion,” as Chantal Delsol puts it, a feel-good cult that makes its adherents feel superior to the grubby masses and the corporate barbarians who create the wealth and products that make their existence possible. Meanwhile jobs are not created, economic growth is burdened by costly regulations, and our national interests are compromised by the failure to exploit our country’s resources. That’s too high a price to pay just so some people can enjoy a pleasing fantasy.

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  • UCSPanther

    They were warned, yet they did not heed.

  • trapper

    We are seeing a resurgence of pre-Christian (and pre-Judaic) paganism similar to what was described in both the New and Old Testaments. The nature cults of today and little different than the nature cults of pagan times. They both look to nature as a guide to human action and meaning, and as an apotheosis. The result is to minimize human worth and human welfare.

    • Naresh Krishnamoorti

      There’s one very big difference. The old “nature” cults believed that god and man and nature were all part of the same substance. They were pantheists, like modern Hindus. Modern environmentalists, on the other hand, see man the same way as the author of this essay sees him, as distinct and opposed to nature. That’s why they have this confused philosophical position that man has control over and can alter the environment in dramatic ways (Obama thinks he can make the oceans stop rising), but that, at the same time, he should make himself a slave of nature (the needs of the Delta smelt are more important than the survival of California farmers).
      There is something far more evil and Satanic in modern environmentalism, which hates man because he is created in the image of God, than there ever was in pantheism. A pantheist can be converted because he is only confused and deluded. An environmentalist is too full of hate to be easily converted. But all things are possible with God.

      • MAlanLewis

        Again, an ignorant explication of a topic of which the writer has no knowledge.

        There is nothing Satanic about concern for the environment. It is non-religious in every way.

        There is no need for employ gods to understand the world and the word’s environments. Science suffices.

        • truebearing

          The dominant culture for the last 100 years has been Progressivism, yet all of these problems continue to get worse.
          If you want more water, then capture some of the trillions of gallons of flood water that devastates the planet every year, and store it in huge resevoirs, to be dispensed as needed to irrigate or provide drinking water. Create aquaducts, or pipelines, that can send water where it is needed. Why hasn’t that been done by our big giovernment Progressives? Because environmentalists block any true progress with false science, lies,or anything that can prevent human success. They squander trillions of dollars trying to prove their that inane social theories work, but nothing on things that could actually help people. They are afraid it would disprove their misanthropic stupidity. They have been obsessed with their god, political power, instead of truly helping humanity.

          • MAlanLewis

            Progressivism is a minority culture, else we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

            I don’t want more water. I live within natural cycles of resource available in the bioregion I inhabit,

            Environmentalists do not have the power to block government projects. We do not have trillions of dollars to squander.

            All of these accusations apply to the government/corporate oligarchy, not environmentalists.

            It is not the goal of environmentalists to “help humanity.” Our goals is to defend the natural world from human development.

          • truebearing

            “Progressivism is a minority culture, else we wouldn’t be having this discussion.”

            Are you completely insane? How do you think Obama got elected, twice?

            Environmentalists have blocked lots of things and destroyed private property. The canadian pipeline is an example of something they have blocked, so far. They’ve blocked oil exploration in many places, including Alaska.

            Obama and his EPA are environmentalists. Duh.

            You are typical of the self-righteous adherents to the environmental religion: obdurate, dishonest, misanthropic, intellectually self-deluded, incapable of a logical defense of your BELIEFS, and narcissistic.

          • MAlanLewis

            Barak Obama was elected because he was the chosen candidate of the government/corporate oligarchy.

            The Canadian pipeline is already built. The argument is over who benefits from the route.

            I lived in Alaska for many years. I stood next to the Trans-Alaska Pipeline. I videotaped and photographed the Exxon Valdez oil spill. No one has ever blocked oil production in Alaska!

            My, my such vociferous accusations. Best look in a mirror.

          • Western Canadian

            “The Canadian pipeline is already built.”
            As if we needed such an obvious proof that you are living a lie, not a dream.

          • MAlanLewis

            See the illustration:

          • Western Canadian

            See the lack of the pipeline. See obama dither and evade.

          • Guest

            Note the multi-colored line running from Hardisty to Cushing. A pipeline.

          • Western Canadian

            “A” pipeline. Not the one mentioned in this thread. You are pitiable.

        • herb benty

          Oh BS quit covering for the friggin occult. Witches etc have a long history with trees, rocks, and the “Forces” of nature. Environmentalism is full of them, so are abortion clinics.

    • MAlanLewis

      This turns out not to be the case.

      While this might be comforting to some, there is no “pre-Christian (and pre-Judaic) paganism” in environmentalism. It is merely the hard-headed reality that humans are but one of many species on the Earth and as such we have no proprietary rights to its resources.

      • truebearing

        Liar. Druidism is deeply embedded in European environmentalism, as are other pagan religions. Nice try.

        I’ll agree with environmentalists being hard-headed, but again, if you believe what you profess, then why are you on a computer, sucking up energy and employing a tool that has helped humanity in many ways? Why do you still have that insidious electricity in your home, or gas in your car?

        • MAlanLewis

          I don’t live in Europe; I live in North America. Druidism plays no part in my environmentalism.

          I don’t drive a car. I walk and bicycle. I use less than 35 kilowatt hours of electricity per month.

          • truebearing

            So, your environment doesn’t include Europe and the environmental religion is sectarian? Or are you the pope of your own smug, self-righteous cult?

            Maybe we should all move to Seattle, or whatever mild climate you live in, and share all of your water and abundunce. My guess is that you live on a campus where taxpayers pay for everything so you can walk around deluding yourself with your environmental saintliness.

            Regardless of where you live, or if you’ve told the truth, which I profoundly doubt, you admitted that you don’t care about other humans, just your environmental beliefs. That makes you a sociopath and no one I respect.

          • MAlanLewis

            No, my bioregion does not include Europe. My bioregion starts in the Sierra and ends in the Pacific Ocean. Europe borders on the Atlantic Ocean and ends in the Urals.

            I don’t live on or near a campus. I live in my own home where I grow my own food and collect my own water in rain barrels. I choose to live here because I do not need fossil fuels to heat or cool my house. I live here because I can grow food year round. I choose to live here because I can live simply and with as little energy expenditure as possible.

            Please do not build straw dogs. I have not said that I do not care about other human beings. I have no environmental beliefs.

          • Western Canadian

            “there is no “pre-Christian (and pre-Judaic) paganism” in environmentalism.”
            You were caught in yet another lie, and try to blow it off, hoping no one will notice that you merely continue the lie. Seems to be your average effort….

          • MAlanLewis

            There is nothing here to respond to. When Western Canadian makes an actual statement, I might have something to say about it.

          • Western Canadian

            Again, you show you are merely a hypocrite. Run and hide like a child. And bloviate like, well, like yourself.

          • herb benty

            I caught him lying too.

          • herb benty

            Bully for you, pinko! You are obviously retired. Most people have to work to live.

          • MAlanLewis

            Yes, I am no longer employed after working steadily for 50 years. My wife and I now live solely on Social Security. No pensions, 501K or other retirement plans.

            We planned well and now own our home that requires minimal energy to maintain, and provides most of our food.

            This doesn’t mean I don’t work, I just don’t get paid for it!

          • herb benty

            That is the point sir! You now have yours but would deny others- typical selfish earth worshiper.

  • Naresh Krishnamoorti

    It’s not accurate to speak of humans as unnatural. Humans transcend nature. But otherwise, you seem to have uncovered the true source of environmental ideology: it is a cult of Satan. It’s a nihilistic, anti-human cult of death that is a part of the Culture of Death which includes abortion. That’s why environmentalists who oppose the killing of animal embryos also happen to be vehemently pro-abortion.

    Out of this basic framework flows all the other perversions of environmentalism, and explains why they are Malthusians, eugenicists, luddites, and socialists. Their greatest fears are that cheap technology and plentiful food will encourage higher birth rates, and will make people relatively satisfied with their quality of life.

    They want food and energy prices to be much higher, and their availability relatively scarce, in order to fan Malthusian fears and to discourage procreation. Man is and always will be their enemy.

    • herb benty

      I wondered why it’s a $10,000.00 fine for disturbing an eagle’s nest, yet women flock to the baby killers for convenience and choice? That is one of the reasons America lost it’s God-teflon, it’s Divine protection.

      • Well Done

        The heinous hypocrisy of environmentalists, especially the ones in the bureaucracy, can be seen in the permits issued to wind farm owners, allowing them to kill eagles and other protected species. I find that unforgivable, and it’s on the short list of reasons I truly despise people who hid behind the label “environmentalist”.

        • herb benty

          Ya! A few years back up here in Oilsands country, before we turned tailing ponds into recycled water! a small number of ducks died. Well of course the enviro-leftst machine went global with that. But 400 foot bird shredders or whole valleys of bird melting mirrors? Not a word from the indignant leftist would-be World rulers. The war on our North American VAST ENERGY SUPPLIES continues through surrogate “enviromentalism”, (Totalitarianism). Our loss of freedom is their endgame. I know that may not be a description of the average tree-hugger, BUT, the goals of environmentalism is anti-human and anti-growth

          • MAlanLewis

            Since knowledge and appreciation of environmentalism is in the minority, it cannot be totalitarianism.

            The true hegemony is economic growth at any cost. It is built into the dominant society, as unquestioned as air to breathe.

            The goal of environmentalism is to protect the natural environment from human development.

          • herb benty

            The Left is far more well funded than the right.Your far left nature worship is pitiful. I was a hunter and did far more than any leftist, anti-growth commie protestor would ever even consider. Environmentalism considers man as just another animal, who has been way out of control and must be stopped.Why do these “environmentalists” leave the Communist world alone, leave OPEC( Arabs) alone.Your goals seem to include include only the West, so you are going to go extinct, as we won’t allow you to dictate our demise. Buzz off, pinko.

          • MAlanLewis

            This must be in some other universe than the one I inhabit. In the fifty years that I have struggled as an environmentalist, I have yet to make a penny! Please direct me to this enormous money source!

            Yes, obviously humans are but one of many species. Unlike all other species, humans live as if no other species exist. This is ultimately self-destructive. Either we stop this behavior, or we join the dodo.

            Mother Nature always bats last.

            My goals only include my own bioregion. I have no influence anywhere else. Others are free to defend their own bioregions.

          • Bingeman

            See Herb,this guy will NOT give you a straight answer regarding China,the Arabs or any other non-members of his “bio-region”…nice dodge,Lewis!
            But wait,if Mother Nature always bats last,will she not do that in other “bio-regions” as well as our own? Should you not be defending all of these regions?
            You know why you will always lose these oddball arguments? Because of idiot lines like,”humans live as if no other species exist”.This is a ridiculous statement in so many ways.Is this what you actually believe?That the rest of us pathetic souls have no concept of the fact that there are other species on this earth?You and your kind alone are aware of other forms of life? Your self-righteousness overwhelms me!
            Sorry to hear that you have been a “struggling environmentalist” all these years…maybe you need some pointers from Al Gore!

          • MAlanLewis

            I don’t live in other bioregions, so I cannot know them to defend them There are others who live in other bioregions who know them and will defend them.

            This is not what I believe, this is what is. Saying that humans live as if other species do not exist, is not the same as saying that humans have no concept of the fact that there are other species on this earth. Different is not the same.

            Al Gore is not an environmentalist. He is a millionaire politician.

          • Bingeman

            First…shhh..don’t tell that to Al Gore.
            Next,you can live in a wishful thinking state of mind all you like,but whatever efforts you make each day to live better than the rest of us are a HUGE waste of time…nothing will change in your “bio-region” or any others…life will go on.
            You can tsk-tsk the rest of us on how we live as if other species do not exist but it’s an unreasonable statement.You portray millions of ordinary human beings as if we are plotting against the rest of the earth…people simply going to work each day either building cars or constructing homes or whatever they do to exist is not committing a crime against nature.This type of argument is stunningly critical of humanity.We are far from perfect but we do the best we can and usually we eventually find a better way.You,on the other hand,will forever believe that we are aliens on this earth…some even think of us as a disease.Those kind concern me because they are currently infant totalitarians waiting for their “moment”.

          • MAlanLewis

            Things have changed for the better in my bioregion as a result of the efforts of dedicated environmentalists.

            It’s amazing the difference one person can make by standing up for ideals, speaking out and persisting through opposition.

            “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” – Mahatma Gandhi

          • Bingeman

            I suppose you have to give yourself credit for the dedication you and the others have shown if it makes you feel better.I have seen all this chest-puffing in my “bio-region” too but things really are still the same and the yammering persists.Always the same call,”It’s still not enough!We must do more!” Blah,blah,blah….I have been listening to this for over 40 years…we have improved greatly over that time period but it’s never enough for the environmentalists….humanity continues to stand in your way.
            The problem with that Gandhi quote…we are not fighting you….you are fighting humanity.

          • MAlanLewis

            I don’t know who your “we” is. Round these parts, I know the “we” very well.

            Environmentalism never wins because human development is unending. Even when we “win,” developers come back again to attempt to develop the same places.

            There is a finite limit to human intelligence. There is no limit to human shortsightedness.

          • Bingeman

            Oooo…the big bad monster of human development.You really do hate mankind in your own special way,don’t you?This is what people do…like how girls like to go shopping.Do you not see at all how you cripple yourself with this type of thinking?It obsesses you and it’s all you can think about.Toss your anxieties and just enjoy the time you have left.When I was a silly teenager I thought a bit like you do now.But then I grew up and stopped trying to paint the human race as a poison on this earth….I live for today and maybe for a few weeks into the future.Worrying about what MAY happen someday is a giant waste of time.
            I kept an article from my local paper where an Indian band and David Suzuki scolded us all and went on to proclaim that life would cease to exist by the year 2000…the article was from 1989….I wonder when the next cut-off date will be…I’m waiting…..

          • MAlanLewis

            No, I really do not hate mankind in my own special way.

            Please do not attempt to tell me what or how I think. Only I know what or how I think.

            I am not worried about what may happen someday. I respond to what is happening today.

            Life ceased to exist for millions of living beings in the year 2000. Life continues to exist today.

          • herb benty

            Suzuki is unbalanced.

          • MAlanLewis

            I am fighting no one. I am humanity as much as anyone else!

          • herb benty

            Yes, and that is why we will get our country back from earth worshipers.

          • MAlanLewis

            News Flash: the United States is not run by environmentalists. It is run by a corporate oligarchy.

          • herb benty

            Obama is the chief enviro-loonie on the planet

          • MAlanLewis

            The President is a figurehead. The government is run by a corporate oligarchy through campaign financing and bribery.

          • herb benty

            This present POTUS is an enviro-loonie, he is one of yours.

          • MAlanLewis

            Please don’t attempt to tell me what I think.

            I do not believe.

            We are not aliens on this earth, obviously, nor are we a disease. We are a species that acts as if there are no limits to consumption of natural resources. We are a species that ignores natural cycles of resource availability. We are a species that uses resources faster than they are naturally replenished, and who produces waste faster than it can be naturally dispersed.

            In short, we are a species creating our own extinction.

          • Bingeman

            But you talk about us like we are a huge problem. That IS what you think! Pretend it away all you like but the rest of us mere mortals hear you loud and clear.When you get busted on that you get all defensive.We”ignore natural cycles of resource availability”???Nobody thinks like that nor should we be expected to.It’s you and your fellow moral Himalayans who preach to us ad nauseum that you somehow live life better than we do.You do not! You merely tell yourselves that you do because you are needy.You need to continuously pat yourselves on your collective backs because the rest of us won’t be fooled by this hollow sermonizing.
            As for creating our own extinction…well,as they say,”nothing lasts forever” and “all good things must come to an end”.

          • MAlanLewis

            I beg you pardon! I think like that, and I am in the company of many others.

            Yes, I do live better than many others. I live simply, with fewer cares, no debts, clean air, clean water, good food and plenty of sleep and exercise. I consider that better than the way most people live, especially in this country.

          • Bingeman

            There….exactly what I thought….super self-righteous and boastful to the ends of the earth.
            I live my life TERRIBLY,sir…I am in Florida right now…my husband and I got here 2 weeks ago via a great big ol’ Chevy Avalanche…all the way from Canada where we are buried in 2 feet of global warming.
            We burned through 3 tanks of gas to get here and make NO excuses! Just loving our vacation.
            You and your sort are living in a state of misery and you know it.The evidence is clear…you just plain despise that others are out there enjoying life…you THINK you are enjoying yours but I assure you that you are not…how I know is simply because of this…how can you really be enjoying your own life when you are busy analyzing everyone else’s to death!

          • MAlanLewis

            I’m pleased to see that others stayed up late to carry on the vitriol as I slept peacefully through the night.

            One of the impressive things about the internet is that so many get so much mileage out of so little fact.

            Here all along I’ve been enjoying every minute of my life, and now someone who has never met me tells me I’m having a miserable time of it.

            My analysis is not of people but of societies. Rest easy, Bingman. I am not analyzing you personally. However, if the analysis fits…

          • Bingeman

            Um…A)…I was up till my usual midnight bedtime…oh,and I also slept quite well,thanks.
            B).. Vitriol? Hardly. I was only quietly typing you back…oh..I see…you must be doing what you told herb not to do…”presume to project feelings and emotions unto me”…watch yourself there,buddy.
            C)..The reason I genuinely believe that you are in some degree of inner turmoil is because,right from the start,you talked about how environmentalists have to protect the natural environment from human development and that we live in a self-destructive way.If that’s what consumes your day,even a part of it,then I can only conclude that you sit in judgement of people,societies…whatever you want to call it.You cannot ever be content because the so-called natural environment is everywhere so at what point do you stop worrying about human development picking some of it off?It seems like such a never ending struggle and a colossal waste of time.The icing on the cake is telling us that we live self-destructively…how can you possibly know or prove this?It’s in your imagination only along with other like-minded sorts.Maybe Bieber or Lohan are in self-destructive mode but me personally…nahh…I’m ok,
            So,overall,your posts leave a giant impression that you somehow know that the majority of humanity is not living up to your standards…yes,you and all the other environmental busy bodies.I am completely thrilled for you living your “sustainable” live…you can do as you like…none of my business.But,on your side,it’s nothing but judgement calls,whether we don’t recycle enough or our cars are too big or we’re building on farmland.
            Will life on this planet end someday…hell yeah…like it’s been said,”Nothing lasts forever”. But most of us have too much else going on to agonize over things we really can’t do much about.If you want to sit in some meeting with your fellow thinkers and chastise the rest of us,go ahead but we are not interested in the feeble threats.

          • herb benty

            Glad you’ve made it. Why would you be so selfish as to deny others the right to “make it”. Did you know that people on welfare in our country eat better than most of the world

          • MAlanLewis

            I have no power to deny anyone anything.

          • herb benty

            Are you a troll? You are against development, for instance, my kids want to build a new house, is that idea a bad one to you?

          • MAlanLewis

            I am not a troll. I am an environmentalist.

            There’s nothing wrong with building a new house, as long as there is plenty of water, energy and clean air for all life in the bioregion.

          • herb benty

            BS, We have around 200yrs of fossil fuel left and during this period mankind will master the atom and we won’t need conventional fuels. However we need oil til then. If there is a human extinction it will be because of war, famine and disease caused by STUPIDITY and EVIL. SIN will get us long before we hurt our beautiful planet. Humans are decidedly supernatural, being made in our Maker’s image, so you must really hate people.

          • MAlanLewis

            The worst possible technological innovation would be unlimited energy. The result would make our present environmental destruction look like a picnic in the park.

            I don’t know about humans on this forum, but I am not supernatural. I’m flesh and blood, born of women, scheduled for worm food at the end of my life, if I live that long.

            And… that’s it.

          • herb benty

            And how would unlimited energy be harmful? Human’s have a spirit, given by God in the womb, and one day our spirit will be in a body that never ages. That is the Promise you scoff at. They thought they were smart in Noah’s day too, they decided to ” go with the flow”. That is what you’re doing now. You can’t say you weren’t told.

          • MAlanLewis

            Unlimited energy would allow humans to lay waste to the planet far faster than is possible now.

            As an atheist, I do not accept supernatural myths and threats.

          • herb benty

            I do tend to agree with you on one point. Fallen mankind has atomic power, but no atomic cars, Mr Fusion etc. however, we do have nuclear bombs, Communism has bombs and now Iran and other Islamists have the bomb. That is part of my point. Mankind cannot rule himself. Am I calling your atheism a myth? There is more proof for Jesus Christ, Israel etc., than most people in History. Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh( last book of the Old Testament Malachi, God says, “And I Jehovah, the Almighty, will suddenly come to My Temple. Jesus Christ, came to the Temple built for Him! Zeus, Ashtaroth, and all the others never showed up. Halleluyah! I was trying to tip you off, no “threat”.

          • herb benty

            Why are all the schools showing his debunked films and parading him as THE environmentalist!

          • Bingeman

            As far a I know,he’s not in office and not running for any office…it really gets your goat that he’s made an uber-fortune on this whole enviro schtick as has our illustrious David Suzuki…but not nearly as much so he’s kind of jealous.

          • herb benty

            The guy is a tree-hugger, fullfilling the Biblical prophecy that ” they will worship the creation, instead of the Lord God Almighty that made the Earth”.

          • Bingeman

            Yup…and I love when they try to deny that it’s not a religion and then he tosses out that line,”Mother Nature always bats last”…the enviros equivalent of “God will smite thee”.

          • MAlanLewis

            Since gods are mythical creations of the human mind, they have no hands with which to smite.

            Nature has evolution and natural selection.

          • herb benty

            “Evolution” and “natural selection” are both mythical. Variety within a species is not evolution and “nature” doesn’t “select” anything

          • MAlanLewis

            Evolution and natural selection are theories that explain observations of the present world. They are not mythical as they are verifiable by independent observation.

            Denial does not make them go away.

          • herb benty

            Evolution has been debunked and an unthinking nature selects nothing. Eager atheists can’t make that go away.

          • MAlanLewis

            I recommend to you the book, “Evolution,” by Edward J. Larson, that describes the history of the development of the theory of evolution and the history of the now concluded debate over its reality.

            Denying the patently obvious does not make it disappear.

          • herb benty

            Yup, pure animist pagan nature worship, as the Bible said they would do.

          • MAlanLewis

            Nope.

            Animist, pagan, nature… yes. Worship… no.

            No bible, either. Bibles are legion. Which bible is right?

          • herb benty

            Do you not see the wilful ignorance in sitting here discussing how we are all a bunch of random mutations. It takes more faith to believe that than believing in a all-powerful Creator. All Bibles say the same thing with a few different words that don’t change anything. I was in Israel in 1995 and went immediately to the “Shrine of the Book”- built by the Kennedy’s( yes, those ones). The whole Old Testament is in those scrolls, except Ester. I read Isaiah 7: vs. 13, 14 about God having a Virgin conceiving a child, and calling His name Immanuael( God with us) These scrolls were written around 2- 100 BC and they read THE SAME as my Bible. What are the chances of a book surviving “book burnings”, being outlawed by Kings etc. Yet here it is..” God looks over and preserves His Word”

          • MAlanLewis

            We are not all a bunch of random mutations. We are the product of billions of years of natural selection and evolution. This understanding takes no faith whatsoever, but an understanding of the scientific method.

            If all bibles say the same thing, why the fear of Islam? Are not Muslims “people of the book” as well?

          • herb benty

            Do you hear yourself! I took evolution and harmful mutations are evolutions supposed reason for ANY change. The sun is getting hotter, it was cooler in the past, if the sun was even a couple million years old, the Earth would be a frozen wasteland incapable of supporting life. The earth’s magnetic field is weakening at a constant rate, going back even 1 million years the magnetic field would be so strong, the earth would be powder. The earth is young. The millions and billions of years that evolutionists claim for the age of the earth is bogus, totally fabricated to allow time for mutations to make us out of the elements. Evolution was invented to remove God, and it failed and is debunked. The Judeo-Christian Faith has nothing to do with Islam- that I did study. I read the Koran, it is a demonic attempt to erase our loving Creator and replace Him with Satan. Islam is commited to the death of all Jews, Christians(me) and all “infidels”(you). Oh, Islam is mentioned all right in the book of Revelation, “they will cut off your heads if you don’t submit”. Islam uses Satan as god.

          • MAlanLewis

            Mutations are not evolution. Natural selection acts on mutations and genetic variation to select those traits that are the best fit for current conditions.

            Saying that the geologic age of the solar system is bogus is an statement made in ignorance of the body of data relative to the age of the Universe.

            If one chooses to ignore science, one chooses to live in darkness.

          • herb benty

            My major was Biology dear man. Mutations are the only way evolutionists can get a species to change into another species(which doesn’t happen ever. Nature doesn’t “select” anything. Evolution is not science. Any human, scientist or not cannot prove the age of the universe. Science is not light. The best scientists in the world were in Germany in the early 20th Century and they colluded with Hitler! That is darkness led by scientists.

          • MAlanLewis

            This is incorrect. The driving force of evolution is natural genetic variation acted on by natural selection. Viable mutations are very rare and play only a small part in the course of speciation. Mutagensis is a very old hypothesis now much diminished in importance.

            I find it infinitely sad to encounter such deep darkness on this forum.

          • herb benty

            The “scientific method” was formulated by Mendel, a young earth creationist that rightfully said Darwin was wrong. Nature does not, “save”, “favor”, or “select” anything, those are human actions, that Darwin gave to nature.

          • MAlanLewis

            Yes, I am a tree-hugger and proud of it.

            I don’t worship anything, but if I did it would be a real physical tree rather than a mythical being.

          • herb benty

            Why is the thought of an intelligence and a power that dwarfs ours so scary for you, seeing that He says He loves us? Just wondering.

          • MAlanLewis

            Please do not presume to project feelings and emotions onto me. No one can say what I feel other than myself.

            I am not afraid.

          • herb benty

            You talk like you are afraid, You answer, what, at least 15 comments directed at me, and now your feelings are hurt? Wow, a little thin skinned aren’t we. We are all in a war for our soul, and in a war a little fear is a good thing, ask a soldier. Bible: The fear of God(Fatherly), is the beginning of Wisdom.

          • MAlanLewis

            I am not in a war for a soul I do not possess.

          • herb benty

            Instead of the real God, you’d worship a tree? I can’t help you. “There are none so blind, as those who will not see”. Fun being your own God, eh?

          • MAlanLewis

            What is the “real” god? Why is one god real and others are not? Why not Astarte, Zeus, Be’elzibub, Allah, Selleh or Fratsearn?

            How does one know the real god?

          • herb benty

            Simply put, they don’t have the ring of Truth, the orderly, common sense way it lays out how everything came to be, with no flights of fancy. No other god has offered to save us from our sins(my own I’m accutely aware of). Tell God you are skeptical, Thomas was too, from your heart ask Him to show you the Truth and He will graciously receive you.

          • MAlanLewis

            “Mankind is the only animal with the True Religion.

            Several of them!” – Mark Twain

          • MAlanLewis

            Yep, I’m a tree-hugger all right, and a granola cruncher too.

            No bibles, though. Too many to choose from. Too many gods. Why is any one god right and all others are wrong? Who decides?

          • herb benty

            The Bible is True. Because we are not on the back of a giant turtle, one reason our Judeo-Christian Faith is true. Oh, YOU DECIDE, that’s why you are here.

          • MAlanLewis

            Bibles are books, written by human beings. Some are accurate historical documents, others are more fanciful.

          • herb benty

            “The Bible” means, “the Book”, as in THE BOOK. The Bible was written by men as it was given by God. It claims to be God-breathed and if you study it you’ll see what I mean.

          • MAlanLewis

            This claim is made for every sacred book. There is no way to decide which is real and which is fiction.

          • herb benty

            The “left” under whose tent “environmentalists”reside have way more $ than the right. I saw the comparasin on TV. Greenpeace, Sierra Club, Holywood, the “green industry”, Soros the Tides billionaire and of course Saudi money and EU meddlers all pour cash into hindering the growth of North America. Ask Gore if you’re short, he made millions on green tech. Humans are made in the image of God, we are more than just a species. God bats last.

          • MAlanLewis

            I’ve never found this to be the came, but then, I’ve never haunted the halls of the various organizations cited above. (I gag at the thought of Hollywood being perceived as an environmental institution.)

            I’ve never seen this god person spoken of so much in this forum.

          • herb benty

            5 comments to me old boy, I’ll answer you because God loves you. Weird how you are unaware of Holywood’s mass support for “environmentalism”. Okay, how about Robert Redford’s money going to enviro-groups to stop Canada”s Oilsands? FrontpageMag is a believers site, Have you ever seen gravity? If I built a chair, would I be “in” the chair….my handiwork would be plain for all to see. God wants you to believe in Him, THEN He will show you Himself, His Plan, and how this all ends. Evil people were shown many miracles, and still they rebelled.

          • herb benty

            People grow, if they don’t, they go extinct. We are not going to sit like the Eloi waiting to be slaughtered. If evolution was true, you’d be celebrating mankinds dominance( survival of the fittest). God says He made man in His image, to tend the Earth and use what He gave us. That old boy, is not an animal.

          • MAlanLewis

            People growing is not economic growth.

            Evolution is a process observed in the present. The phrase “survival of the fittest” was written by Wallace, not Darwin, and does not mean the meanest cat in the neighborhood. It means the species most fittest to present conditions.

            I’m not privy to what gods say.

          • herb benty

            Show me any proof of evolution. Show me how this Earth isn’t perfectly fitted for people, as was intended. I just spent 14 years in school hearing about evolution and “survival of the fittest”- it is a main plank in that ridiculous theory. All “species” are “fitted” rather nicely, as they were ordered to do. Just mankind seems “out of sorts”, as you say. This is not our permanent home. Be “privy” to God by reading his Word.

          • MAlanLewis

            There is no “proof” of anything. Evolution is a theory that has been verified by extensive research and verification.

            Show me the proof that evolution is not a valid explanation of observations.

          • herb benty

            Every major phyla are in “the Cambrian Explosion” of life in the sedimentary layers. After that it’s just adaptation. The fact that not one “intermediary” type is ever seen in the layers or anything becoming something else would be “proof” for all but the most fanatical. Evolution IS a theory all right, but NO verification or research has proved anything. The evolutionists and AGW advocates lie, play with the numbers etc. Mutations do not create beautiful, exquisite machines, only God does that.

          • MAlanLewis

            The Earth is fitted for people because people evolved in it. If the Earth were different, people would be different or would not be at all.

          • herb benty

            Nothing, “evolved”.

          • MAlanLewis

            All live has evolved, else there would be no difference in life forms over time. Dinosaurs evolved into birds and mammals. We observe evolution in action with living species. (Asking me about the Cooks owl)

            If there is no evolution, there is only independent repeated creation. What is the evidence for that?

          • herb benty

            You sir are brainwashed and indoctrinated in the debunked theory of evolution. Creation was thousands of years ago, dinos did not become birds as we find duck fossils etc in the same strata as dinos. Everything you believe in is wrong.

          • herb benty

            I meant people have kids and they need a place to live with their families. Growing populations.

          • MAlanLewis

            Yes, population growth is a problem, but a lesser problem than economic growth.

          • herb benty

            Do you even realize you are acknowledging the fact that people are supernatural. Why is a giraffe fine with you, but you need to “protect” the Earth from people? People and their actions you portray as unnatural. You are absolutely right, we are partly unnatural, we have a bit of God in us.

          • MAlanLewis

            I do not protect the earth from people. I protect the earth from what people do in a capitalist economy based on unlimited growth.

          • MAlanLewis

            And no, people are not supernatural. This is just plain silly!

          • herb benty

            Why then do enviro-loonies continually berate people for doing things “against” nature, if all people are is just natural. THAT is silly. God put “Eternity” into the heart of man, no “species” has that, except us. Evolution is silly, and different color coats is not evolution, that is adaptation within a type. For instance, look at the different races of people, yet our DNA is 100% the same. Mink, Fisher, wolverine, are just adaptation. Like dogs, a tiny terrier and great danes are varietys- but a dog never became a cat or the other way around. Evolution is paganism in a lab coat.

          • MAlanLewis

            I’ve not said anything about people doing things against nature. I’m not responsible for what others say.

            Our DNA is not 100% the same. My DNA is considerably different than yours. I know because i’ve had my genome profiled to tell my Lewis line from other Lewis lines.

            Evolutions is a scientific explanation of observed differences among special over time.

          • herb benty

            Then why the urge to “protect” nature from people? Our DNA is 100% the same and I’m not talking about how genes are expressed as say, hair color. Don’t believe me? Try 75 Ph.D’s and several Nobel Prize winners at http://www.icr.org They can help you.

          • MAlanLewis

            If all human DNA is 100% the same, how can we use DNA as a forensic tool to tell if a person has committed a crime?

          • herb benty

            Human DNA is the same, monkee is the same,, get it? Brown or blonde hair, a gene for that would be checked, amount of melanin in the skin would be more in blacks than whites, still the same.only different color.

          • MAlanLewis

            People with black hair color have different DNA than people with blond hair color. That’s how the difference is transmitted from generation to generation.

          • herb benty

            Different, “gene” is activated for different color, same DNA, and to show you proof that humans DNA is “the same”, check, http://www.icr.org

          • herb benty

            Silly? A spider builds it’s web a certain way, a beaver builds his/her dam a certain way. People can build in INFINITE ways, that is from God. He is infinite.

          • MAlanLewis

            No, that is from a large, complex brain, opposable thumbs and upright bipedalism.

          • herb benty

            No sir, monkees are not our ancestors. God brought Adam the animals, and he named them all. Humans were never not human.

          • MAlanLewis

            Oh dear, it’s back to 1925!

          • herb benty

            Ya, and since then God is apparantly even more responsible for what we see. IE., the unimagineably complex DNA, etc.

          • herb benty

            You are either lying, dumb or deceived. You just laid out the connection between Marxism and environmentalism, atheism and environmentalism, and how your cause is an enemy to freedom. People want to be free. You are a totalitarian. Oh, I don’t want to hurt a moose, I just want to control everything it does. Think how happy you would be in Russia or China, the largest producer of oil and oils largest user- 2 countries your people suspiciously leave out.

          • MAlanLewis

            Please don;t presume to tell me what I do or do not do.

            There is no connections between Marxism and environmentalism. Marx has been dead for some time now, long before environmentalism developed.

          • herb benty

            Typical atheist lefty- skin like onion paper. Your portrayal of Capitalism as a bad thing is pure Marxism. So, enviro-loonies couldn’t adopt the commie system to control the people, like Obama already has in America? And what if the people reject everything you say?

        • herb benty

          Hypocrisy is the leftist environmentalists trademark. They fly around to all these cushy resorts to plot lowering OUR standard of living! Using a fake, non-existent “crisis”. I discovered they have been attempting this for over 100 years, using the belief that we will end up either like Venus(too hot), or Mars(too cold). The endgame is the same- World Government, Communism, Totalitarianism. The masses must be controlled, vs. free people living in a free society.

    • Ammianus

      Indeed. It is the reenactment of the very old cult of human sacrifice in service of the earth mother goddess.

      • MAlanLewis

        An interesting fantasy that bears no relationship to fact.

    • MAlanLewis

      I find it best not to attempt to speak for others.

      I do not speak of humans as unnatural. Humans are as natural as all other animals. Humans do not transcend nature, but are merely one form of nature, with no inherent domination of other life forms. Abortion is a human right that has nothing to do with environmentalism.

      It is a fact that human growth outstrips available natural resources. I am concerned with the social effects of technology, as were Luddites. I am a socialist, in that natural resources are the legacy of all life and not to be sequestered for the private profit of individuals and corporations. Artificially inexpensive technology and food does encourage high birth rates and makes people unaware of the consequences of excessive consumption of natural resources.

      I want food and energy prices and availability to reflect the true cost of resource extraction and dispersal of wastes.

      I am no more my own enemy than anyone else. I am a friend and defender of all life.

      • Rob Hobart

        “It is a fact that human growth outstrips available natural resources.”
        Nope. All resources are cheaper and more plentiful now than they were decades ago. Humans have an infinite capacity to find more, find substitutes, and become more efficient in using what they have. Resource depletion is meaningful only on a scale of THOUSANDS of years, making it irrelevant to us.

        “I am a friend and defender of all life.”
        Given that your policies would lead to the mass-slaughter of humanity, this is clearly a lie.

        • MAlanLewis

          Water is the example that proves the rule. Water is not cheaper and more plentiful now than decades ago. There is no substitute for water.

          Potable water depletion is meaningful today.

          Natural habitat, topsoil, agricultural land are all natural resources that are depleted and finite in supply.

          It is only economists who hold the long disproven fantasy of infinite substitution.

          I am in no position to have policies. Governments and corporations handle the mass-slaughter department quite well enough on their own.

          • Western Canadian

            “Water is the example that proves the rule”.
            It always amazes me when people don’t understand that quote, and mis-use it. Just like you just did.

          • herb benty

            Matter can be neither created or destroyed, that cup of water you just drank, might have been drank by Cleopatra. And with all the Trillions we are spending on nonsense, why not huge desalinization plants along the California coast, piping it inland and allowing it to flow across the parched state? Israel has them and they grow gorgeous citrus that they sell in Europe. Nobody wants to eliminate farms, except Obama(environmentalist). Of course food stamps bring more gov’t dependancy, and that is where the money goes. Enviro-loonie projects.

          • MAlanLewis

            Desalination requires enormous amounts of energy, which expensive and polluting.

            Rather than despoiling the earth for profit, why not learn to live with what is already available?

          • herb benty

            Everything takes ENERGY, that is why we have fossil fuels.Run the plants on Solar or nuclear, a well-watered California, New Mexico, Texas would produce food for the world! Capitalism= Freedom. Using earth’s resourses is smart- that’s what the resourses are for. So, neuter everyone?

          • MAlanLewis

            California has more earthquakes than Japan. Can you say Fukushima? Sure.

          • herb benty

            That is your typical snide remark. I doubt America would build plants on the coast or on the San Andreas Fault. Japan, inexplicably, built near a very active fault line.

          • herb benty

            Well, perfect, human’s just happen to have “enormous amounts of energy”. Nobody is “despoiling” the earth except in minds like yours.

        • GopherNo83

          How wrong you are Rob. Resource depletion on a scale of thousands of years? Tell that to EVERY SINGLE large mammal on earth that is not a human, or livestock. They are facing/will face extinction sooner of later. Why? Because we are depleting THEIR resources like we own earth just for us. For more strip malls, more beachfront hotels, more roads, more farmland, more deforestation, more roads, more suburbs, more slums, ect…

          Again, comments like yours reflect a human-centric view of earth. As long as we can suck the earth dry of all it can give us, as long as we take whatever we want, all is ok right?. Well, it’s not ok and it’s getting worse. Come out of your dream world and start facing facts.

          • truthieness

            “All resources are cheaper and more plentiful”…OK that’s it I’m outta here.

            This site hurts my head

          • truebearing

            You’ve probably strained your brain cell. Self-deluded people frequently suffer from the syndrome.

            Why don’t you stop sucking up that oil for your car and heat and just make some room for another moose? Take one for the team and rid the earth of your pernicious presence. Buh-Bye.

          • GopherNo83

            “You’ve probably strained your brain cell. Self-deluded people frequently suffer from the syndrome.”

            Self-delusion – first step in your healing truebearing, is understanding the disease exists.

            “Why don’t you stop sucking up that oil for your car and heat and just make some room for another moose?”

            Room not needed – moose was shot dead by a hunter. “Gotta keep popultations in check you know!” No more wolves to do the job, despicable creatures, they were killing off livestock. Ohhh the irony…

            “Take one for the team and rid the earth of your pernicious presence.” Ohhhh such hate…Please show us how.

          • herb benty

            Truth would hurt you wouldn’t it?

          • truebearing

            Then practice what you preach and reduce the population…starting with your worthless self.

          • Bingeman

            That’s what I figure…a cyanide capsule ought to solve all their problems.

          • GopherNo83

            Bravo truebearing. Truly an inspiring post.
            Very construcive. No doubt, you would volunteer to exterminate all enviro-loonies right?

          • Western Canadian

            Another lout who knows nothing, and insists on proving it over and over again…

          • GopherNo83

            Exactly what did I say wrong brother Canadian? How can you determine I know nothing?

            Do you think, as a race, we are good neighbors with other races on the planet? Do we act adequately, being the only sentient species out there?

            We are a race completely dependent on the biosphere for our very survival – do you think we are putting enough attention there? Or are we simply using it for our (badly needed) continued economic growth at all costs?

            Think this over before posting aditionnal empty remarks.

          • herb benty

            Yes we in North America have been a light to the world, sent goods, services, medical teams to heal the world and yet, there is World Communism, poised to attack, Islam, wanting to kill the world, except Muslims. How do you expect us to act? God is who wise people depend on. He made the earth to last until all is fullfilled.

          • herb benty

            In the meantime the Bible is being played out in the Middle East. Every day 25 species go extinct, no matter what people do. The earth’s protective magnetic field is getting weaker. The Earth’s spin rate is slowing. Only in your mind is humanity “sucking” the earth dry. You see people as THE problem, when in fact, we will kill each other long before there is a loss of resourses. In the 70′s it was, we are running out of oil, “peak oil” was the rage. Now it turns out oil, coal and gas are plentiful. Canada alone has several hundred years worth. The earth is fine, the vitriol and hyperbole is getting worse from shills like you.

          • MAlanLewis

            Just one example of Peak Oil.

          • herb benty

            Peak Oil in East Texas! The point is America has wells in Alaska that will produce for an estimated 30 years by “artesian” pressure! Don’t even have to pump it, like Saudi Arabia, just recently started pumping. These wells are capped, waiting. Canada has Oil for around 1-200 YEARS and we haven’t looked everywhere. Look how far we have come and another hundred? We will have solved that all if the world doesn’t kill itself first in war- which is coming soon. The Earth is fine, people are messed up.

          • MAlanLewis

            No need to try to tell me about Alaska. I lived there for many years. This information is incorrect.

            Yes, it’s quite obvious from this site that people are messed up!

          • herb benty

            Yes, me and Sarah Palin are lying. You obviously learned nothing from your time in Alaska. Phone Shell Oil or others.AND, your little poke at “people on this site”, shows your leftist stupidity.

          • GopherNo83

            The earth is fine…
            Hmmm. Where to start to educate someone like you.
            Ok, so, it’s fine to:
            -Dump millions of tons of plastics in the oceans;
            -Release billions of tons of carbon in the air annually, all the while removing forests.
            -Slaughter rhinos to make aphrodisiac powder?
            -Slaughter big cats to the brink of extinction?
            -Release radioactive isotopes in the air that have no business being there?
            -Dump crud oil in our ecosystems?
            -Suck-dry aquifers for large-scale industrial farming to grow corn to feed cattle so as to have your cheap quarter-pound with a large fry and a diet-coke?
            -To slash and burn the Amazon?
            -Kill the great apes?
            -To overfish oceans to feed millions upon millions of mouths?
            -Divert rivers and end-up drying out lakes?
            -Manufacture billions of tons of consumer goods that will end-up in landfills? Truly a sustainable approach…
            -Keep humans alive longer and longer till the brain fails before the body, filling retirement homes with drooling demented patients?

            And the best.

            -Keep believing in a growth-based economy when we have a finite space where to live and finite resources…

            Yes herb, the earth is fine, our economic system is truly geared towards sustainable development for thousands upon thousands more years… Now time to trash your 42inch TV for a brand spanking new 65 incher… Where does your 42 inch go? Who cares right, the earth is fine…

          • herb benty

            I’ve never heard of the stuff you said being done. If an African kills a monkee, what has that to do with Western Culture? Try, George Carlin-Arrogance of Mankind on Youtube, then look in a mirror.

      • truebearing

        Then live up to your beliefs and commit suicide. You’re part of the problem, but you want solutions that save you while killing others. That has always been a hallmark of socialist thinking.

        • MAlanLewis

          I live my life as an example of a way of life that is not based on fossil fuel consumption, consumerism and corporate domination. I live this way to save myself and the natural environment.

          • truebearing

            Then why are you on a computer that was manufactured using rare earth minerals, plastics, etc? You’re also sucking up electricity, hypocrite. And what about the air you’re breathing? What about Co2?

            Do you drive a car? Ride a bus? Fly in planes? Eat food produced by farmers? Go to hospitals? Drink water? Add to pollution by defecating or urinating? Read books? Take up natural habitat? procreate? Smoke weed?

          • GopherNo83

            Only a true idiot would be unable to comprehend that some humans, like myself and (most probably) MAlanLewis, can come to the conclusion that our western middle-class life style is unsustainable in the long run.

            But I can’t expect to have a hate-filled, closed-minded inbred moron like you to comprehend that. Your arguments are pathetic and a true sign of avoidance of facts that do not fit with the vision of the world you DECIDED was the correct one.

          • herb benty

            If I go to the hardware store for some tools, or a canoe. that is consumerism, consumption and a corporation that I buy from. Corporations make things I want/need, and a corporation is people, workers, shareholders, pension funds and all the spin-offs. I don’t have to impress the Earth, I only want to please my Maker.

          • MAlanLewis

            Corporations are not people. They have all of the privileges of citizens with none of the responsibilities. Corporations bring overwhelming economic power into politics, forever corrupting the political process.

            Corporate capitalism has destroyed democracy in the United States.

          • herb benty

            Leftist Totalitarians are destroying Democracy, not companies that make our lives better. Your Marxism is showing.

        • GopherNo83

          And your replies a hallmark of a hate-filled sociopath.

          • herb benty

            His reply was only common sense, something you discarded it seems.

    • truebearing

      Environmentalism is a misanthropic syncretic religion, fusing elements of paganism, Marxism, Malthusianism, and anything else that furthers their stated goal of reducing the human population to as little as 100 million, worldwide. It is fundamentally anti-human, anti-God, and, as you stated, a cult of death. Small wonder then that the evil Left has possessed the movement, organized and funded it, and is now employing it to terrorize people into lemming-like submission and complicity.

      There is a specific outcome intended by all of the Left’s “environmental” objectives:
      - Cutting off fossil fuels will lead to frozen people, like has happened to poor people during this year’s bitter cold spell. The propane shortage has resulted in prices 5 times those of last year.

      - Stopping fracking or blocking pipelines increases costs for fuel while diminishing availability.

      -Prohibiting dams, prosecuting people for disturbing “wetlands”, driving up farmer’s fuel costs, adding regulations, wasting massive areas of cropland on ethanol, etc. all reduce food production, thereby reducing the affordability of food.

      -Imposing Obamacare, with all of its massive and intentional failings, will result in denied care, poor access, shortages of medicines, and resulting death for millions.

      All of these will result in situational negative eugenics — situations intentionally created by the environmental religion, imposed by law — that will kill millions. The environmental religion can’t be blamed, naturally, because they did it all to stop that terrible global warming. The environmental religion will kill let us all starve or freeze to death so that global warming doesn’t kill us. They couldn’t just wait for global warming to kill us. It’s too slow and unreliable.

      • MAlanLewis

        One who is unaware cannot state the goals of any movement.

        Environmentalism does not depend on faith. Therefore it is not a religion. It is not the goal of any environmentalist or environmental organization to reduce the population to as little as 100 million, worldwide.

        There is no evil Left, as there is no evil right. These are pretend dichotomies that do not exist in the real world. The only terrorizing going on is via a repressive, militarized government.

        Environmentalists do not and cannot:
        1) Cut off fossil fuels
        2) Stop fracking or block pipelines
        3) Prohibit dams, prosecute people for disturbing “wetlands”, drive up farmer’s fuel costs, add regulations, wasting massive areas of cropland on ethanol
        4) Impose Obamacare

        These things are all done by government agencies lobbying through billions of dollars of corporate bribery

        If this “environmental religion” is so powerful, why is it invisible?

        • truebearing

          “Environmentalism does not depend on faith.”

          Yes, it is a religion, exactly as I described it, and none of your pompous blather refuted a single thing in my comment. Environmentalists put their faith in their scientism and belief in Gaia. Yes, it has an element of faith. Even when the “hockey stick” got shoved up its collective rear end, the faithful eco-nitwits refused to accept the failure of the Co2/warming correlation. Subsequent science showing correlations between warming or cooling and solar activity was also summarily dismissed because it violated the orthodoxy of the global warming sacrament of the religion.

          The EPA is the enforcement arm of the environmental religion and it does all of the things listed, and more. Adherents of eco-babble include our evil president, who has steadfastly blocked oil drilling, coal, the Canadian pipeline, etc. etc. Governmental agencies are goose stepping to a malthusian, environmental drum, and you know it.

          What corporation wants to spend more for energy? They are bribing the government so they can spend more, or have less availability? That is world class idiocy, with all due respect.

          The environmental religion is as visible as our federal government, our universities, public schools, and all other points of enforcement or indoctrination.

          Don’t try your pathetic, dull-witted lies on this site. You aren’t even close to smart enough.

          • MAlanLewis

            My environmentalism is not faith-based. It based on the science of ecology. There is no such thing as “scientism.” There is only science and reality. The Gaeia Hypothesis is a myth invented by James Lovelock. It has no basis in reality.

            I do not accept the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis. There is no evidence that human CO2 productions causes global climate variation, and therefore no reason to accept the premise that reducing human produced CO2 will significantly influence observed climate change.

            When one seems to be surrounded by evil doers, one might want to look closely at one’s own mental state.

          • Western Canadian

            Your notion of ‘science’ is quite amusing, as is your over-blown and pitiable writing style, full of assertions with no substantiation of them. You are merely an ignorant, and very self-righteous, blowhard. As someone who has studied environmental science for over 40 years (formally and informally), I find your every post to reek of ignorance and a level of pomposity that only the superstitious worst of the environmental cult is capable of.

          • MAlanLewis

            Good, now you’ve gotten that off your chest!

            What do you think of environmentalism?

        • herb benty

          THANK YOU! At last we see you just bare-faced LYING. Our Keystone Pipeline in Canada is opposed by multi-million dollar financed ENVIRONMENTAL groups. The man just told you the Enviro-loonies ARE in Government now with thousands of pages of new regulations, and everything on your list, they do. No more pearls for you, good luck.

          • MAlanLewis

            In over fifty years, I’ve never seen these millions of funding for environmentalists.

            Government is not run by environmentalists, else why would government environmental departments have been gutted under BushII?

          • herb benty

            Ask the anti-Oilsands “Tides” foundation, millions from Soros the billionaire. Obama is the enviro-loonie, not Bush.

          • MAlanLewis

            The Tides Foundation funds the Center for New American Security. CNAS’s stated mission is to “develop strong, pragmatic and principled national security and defense policies that promote and protect American interests and values.

          • herb benty

            That is a lie, Soros, through Tides finances all sorts of devious groups, ie. Media Matters. and is the leading opponent of the Keystone XL pipeline from Canada.

  • herb benty

    Meanwhile Russia builds new pipelines to China( I’ll bet the Impact studies were a snap) and becomes the World’s leading Oil producer. Canada likely has more oil and it’s ON TOP of the ground. The Soros-backed “Tides Canada” funds numerous protest groups, and native groups to oppose, “Big Oil” and the vast ENERGY in Canada’s Oilsands. This is very helpful to Russia, Nigeria, Venezuala, OPEC- the Islamic Arabs. If America got serious about the Oilsands in Canada and America’s own reserves, we wouldn’t need a drop from our enemies, ever.

    • truthieness

      Meanwhile in Canada we have a great “non-profit” called Ethical Oil whose lies are parroted by our own Prime Minister and Faux News North. Harper (Canada’s PM) has passed laws silencing our federally funded scientist.

      Still, there’s people like Herb parroting the Neo-Con bull about “Oil Sands being above ground”, as if oil sands are easy to move, refine or are even cost effective (this discussion would be moot if oil were $60 a barrel).

      This dirty corrosive sludge does not pipe well and when it spills (it does spill and pipes do corrode) it doesn’t clean up easy.

      After all that, the majority of Canadians (myself included) would like to see the pipeline built. The oil will be moved…hopefully not by rail.

      • herb benty

        WOW, I see truthieness is more important than TRUTH. Sunnews, that employs Ezra Levant’s Ethical Oil is the Fox News of Canada, a conservative station that revels in the truth that the left likes to hide. Canada’s Oilsands are state of the art clean, recycle it’s water, and are far less harmful to the enviroment than the Saudi’s, Nigeria and Venezuala, Russia, the largest oil producer, well, the enviro-loonies leave their idols alone, that Greenpeace stunt not fooling anyone. Harper rightfully shut up insane Marxist tenured professors from spouting nonsense, like one day a”study” says eggs will kill us and next week that eggs are good for us, that sort of thing. AND, if a “scientist” wishes to denigrate Canada he is welcome to step down from his taxpayer-funded position and do what he wants. But I should not have to pay for our way of life to be belittled. I am a Conservative, not a neo-con, you know, the people who built Canada. The Oilsands contain the stuff that drives the modern world, from our cars to cellphones. It is only “dirty” in certain minds. Life isn’t EASY, nothing good is. We Canadians need our Oilsands, will sell some by pipeline and you and your ilk will just have to get used to it. Try living instead of protesting, you may yet find a life.

        • pabis

          And right you are, Herb. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

          • herb benty

            Thanks, pabis, the schools, universities and Holywood have done their Anti-West best and we have an uphill battle.

      • Omar

        You probably watch the Canadian equivalent of PMSNBC. Get a life.

  • Bamaguje

    Eco-wackos don’t seem to appreciate that the progress of human civilization depends on our ability to productively harness nature.
    In essence nature exists for us… not the other way round.

    If we can’t harness nature for our good, we’d be no different from our primitive ancestors who lived in caves and died from exposure to the elements or preventable ailments.
    Perhaps that’s what the anti-human enviro-nutjobs want – regression of humanity to the stone age.

    • Thomas Mrak

      Many environmentalists come from affluent backgrounds or have become affluent.

      What they want is for everyone else but them to live like primitive tribesmen.

      The superiority complexes these men and women have is mind-boggling.

      The Earth is billions of years old. It existed long before our ancestors crawled out of the ocean, and it will exists long after our species has died out or evolved into some else.

      Earth is a big girl. It can take care of itself.

      • Bamaguje

        Exactly!!
        Our planet is much more resilient than eco-wackos want us to believe. Nature has taken more grievous hits than humanity can throw at it.
        The eminent Walter Williams captured this brilliantly in his essay ‘Our Fragile Planet’:

        http://www.humanevents.com/2013/12/11/our-fragile-planet/

        • MAlanLewis

          It is true that the natural world has “taken hits” in the past. The response has been extinction.

          • truebearing

            Then get on with it and live what you babble. The earth needs more habitat and less hot air. Please have the integrity to remove yourself from the planet.

          • MAlanLewis

            I don’t have any ingrity. Can’t think where I’ve left it!

          • Western Canadian

            A completely stupid answer…

          • MAlanLewis

            One should know.

          • Western Canadian

            Yes you should, but you don’t.

          • herb benty

            Mr. Lewis, just entertain the possibility a sec that you may have got carried away in your youth with partying and eventually caught the enviro- virus. I think you have integrity, something mutations don’t produce.

          • MAlanLewis

            Sorry, i was born with it!

            All my life I have lived and worked in environmental concerns, since I was a wee lad saving worms from mud puddles.

          • herb benty

            And never entertained the fact the Bible is true?

          • herb benty

            Noah’s Flood, that is why everything died, except what was saved.

          • MAlanLewis

            Seriously?

      • MAlanLewis

        I would be delighted if half the people on the planet lived as I do. That means that many would have a satisfactory lifestyle and far more would live a less destructive, low consumption lifestyle.

      • GopherNo83

        “Earth is a big girl. It can take care of itself.”

        The petri dish is a big place, said the bacteria, it can take care of itself.

        Thomas, you asked earth, she told you so?

      • herb benty

        The Earth is thousands of years old, not billions, they made up deep time to push God back.

        • MAlanLewis

          “They”?

          The return of the Dark Ages has arrived sooner than I expected.

          • herb benty

            They, would be atheistic academics.

    • MAlanLewis

      I disagree with this definition of “progress.” We cannot harness Nature, we can only diminish it.

      The Natural world does not exist for humans. Humans are a part of the Natural world and therefore are not above or below it.

      We live and die just as did our ancestors hundreds of thousands of years ago. We are no better nor worse than our ancestors. We do create more misery and death fro non-human animals than did our ancestors, through hubris, unbridled greed and acquisitiveness.

      • Western Canadian

        “We cannot harness Nature, we can only diminish it.”

        Utter. Drivel.

        “We live and die just as did our ancestors hundreds of thousands of years ago.”
        And more of the same.
        You really do live in a fantasy world, guarded by both arrogance and ignorance.

        • MAlanLewis

          Flinging empty insults is an utterly useless and self-defeating activity. One may as well stand in front of a mirror and make faces.

          • Western Canadian

            Another comment that rises to your usual level of coherence. And extreme hypocrisy.

      • herb benty

        Human’s “diminish” nature? There you go again, human’s as a supernatural being. I agree, God loves us.

    • GopherNo83

      “regression of humanity to the stone age”

      Nope. Simply regression of the number of humans on the planet. Down to let’s say, 200-300 million maximum. Not through genocide, of course. Simply, one baby per woman. That’s it. After a dozen generations or so, job done.

      Oh but wait, we can’t do that. This would mean economic collapse. Sooooo let’s just make more babies to make sure we get our 8-10% growth on our 401k’s… When we are 15, 20 or 30 billion humans, then we’ll let our great-great grandkids deal with the imaginary problem of overpopultation…

      Now off to the cottage in my Hummer H3 Yeeeeeeehaaa!!!!!

      • Drakken

        War, famine and disease has a nasty habit of culling the herd, so don’t worry about having another 15-30 billion more people.

        • GopherNo83

          I actually worry Drakken, we all should. We humans now have found ways of warding off disease like never before. Wars? a blip in our population growth. Famine? Hardly. We over-produce food. Problem is that as years go by, we stress earth more and more and there is no desire to halt and reverse this trend. In the long run, it will get much worse until either we act, or nature pushes back with unpleasant consequences. Let’s hope that by the time one of the two scenarios happens, we have not destroyed too much of the biosphere.

          • herb benty

            Humans can’t, “stress” the Earth. She ain’t alive.

      • ebonystone

        Population growth is almost entirely due to the growth of 3rd World populations. The U.S. and almost all European countries have birth rates that are below replacement levels. Yet both the U. S. and Europe negate that achievement by allowing massive and needless immigration from the 3rd World; needless because both the U.S. and Europe have very high unemployment rates. There are not enough jobs for the natives much less the incomers. We’re killing our own children, and filling their places with immigrants who generally despise us, and want to destroy our society and culture.
        Let the 3rd Worlders stay in the 3rd World. We’ve dealt with the population problem in our countries; let them deal with theirs.

      • Bamaguje

        If the experience of the Western world is anything to go by, population growth eventually ceases after a certain level of development.
        So you have nothing to worry about. As the developing world catches up with the West, birth rates will decline.
        Methinks human population would plateau at about the 12-14 billion mark. Studies have shown that our planet can easily cope with twice our present population of 7 billion..

        • MAlanLewis

          “Studies have shown…”

          “Studies” by economists regularly show that the entire population of the earth can live in New Hampshire, but who would want to live that way?

  • JVictor

    This twisted mindset is foisted onto our children at an early age. If you kill a whale or a baby seal, you are a monster. If you kill an unborn baby, you are exercising your right to choose. When human life is held to a lower standard than any other form of life, then you create a culture of whackos who chain themselves up to trees to “defend” a spotted owl while thousands of families are forced to suckle the teat of big government. Yes, it all leads to the boobs in DC just like every other liberal progressive agenda.

    • MAlanLewis

      I do not kill babies of any species, nor do I propose that others do so.

      Defending a non-human species threatened by human development bears no relationship to suckling the teat of big government.

      • herb benty

        It sure does if this concern for the smelts causes human unemployment, degradation of communities. Mr. Lewis, try George Carlin- arrogance of mankind on Youtube. He talks about you. I can’t stand Carlin but what he says in this bit is you to a T.

        • MAlanLewis

          Capitalism requires unemployment. It’s built into the system to control costs of production.

          Communities are degraded by consumerism, individualism, oppression, inequality, and elitism.

          • herb benty

            Your off your rails old boy. Capitalismn wants people to succeed….. we buy more! Nobody wants unemployment except the radical left, more welfare, food stamps and dependancy on government. Who is oppressing you, what inequality, people like and need to buy things. “Elitism”, that would be the Left.

          • MAlanLewis

            “Capitalism makes employment depend chiefly on capitalists’ decisions to undertake production, and those decisions depend on profits. If capitalists expect profits high enough to satisfy them, they hire. If capitalists don’t, we get unemployment. Capitalism requires the unemployed, their families and their communities to live with firing decisions made by capitalists even though they are excluded from participating in those decisions.”

            http://rdwolff.com/content/capitalism-and-unemployment

          • herb benty

            BS. Companies hire people to produce something and to pay workers, a profit is added. Period Everything you just said is only in leftist heads.

  • The Facts

    It’s got nothing to do with the environment. This is why Mr. Thornton is all for the Keystone Pipeline. It has been ordained.

    http://www.transcanada.com/docs/Key_Projects/American_Jewish_Committee_4Oct2011.pdf

    • Rob Hobart

      Anti-Semitic crackpot alert!

      • The Facts

        Hentai cosplay alert.

  • GonzoDon

    “Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.” (Edward Abbey)

    • Rob Hobart

      Stupid comments are the hallmark of Leftist trolls. (Me)

    • herb benty

      Companies would go broke with that attitude, but gov’t’s do stuff like that.

  • Douglas Mayfield

    Environmentalists hate and fear reason, progress, and technology.
    Strip away their excuses, ‘all the quantitative data and mathematically based research’, data massaged to support continuation of their generous government grants and math with no basis in fact or reality, and you have the environmentalists’ raw naked hatred of human life itself. (Top environmentalists have suggested in public that the best thing which can happen is for much of the human race to die off so that the ‘planet can heal’.)
    As human beings, we must use our minds, must think, in order to survive and prosper. We must continue to identify environmentalism as the vicious fraud it is at every opportunity.

    • MAlanLewis

      I do not hate and fear reason, progress, and technology.

      Exactly which “top environmentalist has said, “the best thing which can happen is for much of the human race to die off so that the ‘planet can heal’?

      Environmentalism is a point of view held by millions of people. There is no fraud to be perpetrated and no victim.

    • GopherNo83

      Douglas, I am an engineer, tech-lover and a very logical person. I am also an “environmentalist” is such a label is attached to a person that firmly believes our economic-growth-at-all-costs is about to run us into a brick wall. Not right now, Not in ten years.

      But our uncontrolled reproduction, we-own-earth attitude is leading us to disaster. We have not lived any serious disaster in the past, so we fear none. The complete destruction of the biosphere is underway all over.

      When is enough humans on the plant enough? we’re 7 billion right now. Is that enough? How about if we reach 15 billion. Is that enough? What about if we reach 30 billion humans? When is enough ehnough.

      But more importantly, Doug, what environmental event will stop our population expansion and even more important: will it be pleasant?

      You claim environmentalism is a fraud, As if caring for our life-sustaining biosphere is a fraud… and burning fossil fuels at an accelerated rate a virtue…

      • herb benty

        We don’t live in a “biosphere”, we live on earth. It won’t be an “environmental event” that thins the herd you fear. War is coming NOW, and they will all use nucs, your “habitat” is the least of your problems. Do you ever watch the news?

    • herb benty

      Amen, brother!

  • Infidel4Ever

    A spot on article. Environmentalists essentially hate humans, so it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that their policies are anti-human. What goes on in California is typical of their thinking. In order to protect an essentially useless bait fish, they reduce the ability of the state to produce food. You think that with all the hunger in the world food production would be seen as an important and necessary function. Remember that they next time you hear some silly “progressive” whining about “world hunger.”

    • MAlanLewis

      Environmentalists do not hate themselves.

      Protecting an endangered species in no way prevents anyone from producing food. It happens all the time all over the world.

      Food production is an important and necessary function, as is protecting non-human species from human development. The two activities are not mutually exclusive.

    • GopherNo83

      “You think that with all the hunger in the world food production would be seen as an important and necessary function”

      For the record, I’m an environmentalist and I neither hate myself, nor hate humanity. I do hate humanity’s greed though – of having everything it wants, to the detriment of other lifeforms here.

      Actually Infidel4Ever, globally, we over-produce food. We also waste an enormous amount of it. Remember, hungry poor people are not putting $ in the food conglomerates bank accounts, you and I, rich middle-class Americans do. So who cares about the poor right? Some charities do, but in reality, they don’t weigh much in the big “economic” scheme of things…

      And if we do feed all the poor in the world (because we can, and let’s assume we want to) then what happens? They make babies that also cry for food. A neverending cycle, don’t you think?

      So what’s the solution?

      • herb benty

        The “solution” is to live and be happy. During that dreadful Ethiopian famine in the 70′s and 80′s when they had babies with their little tummies distended on the TV regularly, Ethiopia was the main supplier to the EU of the white bean. Do you get it, we can do nothing about crooked politicians, each country could easily feed it’s people, but they don’t. Just live and pray.

  • El Cid

    Conserving nature is a Conservative value. The natural parks system is a result of conservative action. Once destroyed, it is difficult to restore an ecosystem. It is wise to make decisions that impact the environment carefully.

    The notion that the decision “must benefit the greatest number of people” holds in it some potential for ideological abuse.

  • john53

    The Environmental Movement goals are good but unfortuniately it is run mostly by very far leftist that don’t really like humanity very much. They have little concept of economy or human rights they only see nature as something to be looked at not used.
    They even fight each other over their individual insanities, clean air people fight with water people and with land management people, the stupidity of the movement is often unbelievable, but they have large wallets and and bribe those individuals that run for office to vote there support.
    American politics being such a low form of life doesn’t care about the impact only the money and the power.

    • Bamaguje

      ‘Nature’ is just another convenient tool in the left’s fight against capitalism.
      Otherwise they would see that responsible entrepreneurship can actually boost conservation.

      • MAlanLewis

        Nature is what it is, the sum of all life and habitat. It is not a tool, it is reality on the ground.

        “Responsible entrepreneurship” is an oxymoron.

        • herb benty

          Commie. Explain how “responsible entrepreneurship” is an oxymoron.

  • CapitalistPig

    The eco-chondriacs only look at the “environmental costs” of economic development but just assume the benefits will always remain–no matter how dopey, expensive, ill-conceived & onerous any regulation might be.
    You have to wonder about liberal elites & their parasitic green movement friends who love their mansions, 2nd & 3rd homes, exotic imported foods & wines, pools, toys, jets & limos but decry the oil, gas, timber, metals, transmission lines & the transportation systems that make it all possible for them—& on a smaller scale, the rest of us.

  • MAlanLewis

    So many comments by so many people who know so little of environmentalists and environmentalism. So many personal straw dogs set up to knock down with tired, self-serving arguments.

    “Civilization,” if that’s what it is, is a scourge of the planet. Growth has replaced gods as the religion du jour, despite the impossibility of continued growth in a world of finite resources. All other species live within available resources. It’s only mankind who deludes himself into thinking the Earth is limitless and admits to no boundaries. Must be that brain thing he’s so proud of.

    The future is less, not more. Humans cannot live in a world impoverished of natural habitat, wild animals and the resources we all depend on.

    We’re at the top of the heap. Hang on, it’s a bumpy ride down!

    • LawReader

      Puh-leeze. Get back to us when ‘environmentalists’ have a track record any better than say…Ethanol. We’ll wait…

      California leads the nation in Granola citizenry – what ain’t fruits and nuts is flakes. They prove it *consistently*.

      The human being that thinks the ‘Delta smelt’ is more valuable than water for human beings or agriculture – is *clearly* in ‘burger short of a happy meal’ territory, and the EPA is becoming one of the most dangerous agencies in the country.

    • glpage

      I will trust a conservationist before an environmentalist. The former is actually concerned with managing and protecting natural resources. The later is an ideologue.

      • Bamaguje

        Environmentalists are leftists who have hijacked ‘nature’ as another convenient tool in their fight against capitalism.
        Responsible entrepreneurship can actually boost conservation.

    • MAlanLewis

      I’m always disappointed when posters resort to name-calling at the expense of discussion.

      • LudicrousSextus

        Yeah well, it’s not like you used ‘civilization’ in any other fashion than ‘name calling’. Most amusing! Environmentalists *excel* at labeling anyone that feels other than they do as ‘scourge of the planet’ types…

        • MAlanLewis

          If the shoe fits…

          • LudicrousSextus

            Snow-shoe, today…

            Tell ya’ what – you have a good one, and I’ll get back to managing the 30 acres of woods I own and live in.

            I’ll put what my ‘daily life in the woods’ accomplishes in ‘environmental benefits’ over the bulk of the San Francisco apartment dwelling enviro-cadres.

            Smoke ‘em if ya’ got ‘em.

          • MAlanLewis

            Amazing how one can see through the Internet connection to spy out that I live in San Francisco in an apartment, and then so blithely dismiss this inaccurate fantasy. I guess it’s handy to be so omniscient.

            I’m not interested in mine is bigger than yours. I am interested in discussing the effects of the growth economy.

          • LudicrousSextus

            *Sigh*

            For an ‘academic’, you certainly have an interesting grasp on semantics. Not all that accurate, but interesting…

            You *do* realize this article deals with the enviro-whacko foibles in CALIFORNIA ???

            Never mind…it’s clear your concerns for the well-being of the planet are omniscient and supersedes ‘borders’.

            Like I said…snow to clear, firewood to stack. I’ll try not to step on any squirrels for ya’….

      • MAlanLewis

        I don’t believe using the term “civilization” is name-calling, particularly in the context of describing its effects. In fact, civilization is an extremely nebulous term, with no clear meaning, except in an academic discussion.

        • LawReader

          Most academics don’t spend the day responding to their own posts…

      • Rob Hobart

        Yeah, whatever. If you don’t want to be called an idiot, don’t post idiotic stuff.

        • MAlanLewis

          I expect more than name-calling in an intelligent conversation. Perhaps I expect too much.

          • Western Canadian

            You expect it of other, but fail to bring it yourself. Typical watermelon.

    • MAlanLewis

      Many environmentalists, such as myself, started out as conservationists and continue with this core emphasis. Managing and protecting natural resources, for their non-human values, is the basic activity of environmentalism.

    • Rob Hobart

      “We’re at the top of the heap. Hang on, it’s a bumpy ride down!”

      Nope. Resource depletion is a fantasy.

      You DO know that everyone was saying exactly the same thing back in the 1970′s? And that all the resources they predicted would run out are, instead, cheaper and more plentiful now?

      Oh, and the line about civilization being a scourge on the planet? Nice one, coming from someone using the Internet. Go live in a cave and hunt your food with sticks, maybe then we’ll take you seriously.

      • MAlanLewis

        “Everyone” was not saying the same thing in the 70s. The fact that some were saying the same thing in the 70s demonstrates that they were more prescient than most.

        The Internet is not “civilization,” merely a physical manifestation of a temporary anomaly in technological development. This too shall pass.

        The fact that this particular civilization is in steep decline and soon to go the way of the Roman Empire bears no responsibility to not partake of its means of communication. Even drum beats in the night are a form of technology.

      • GopherNo83

        “instead, cheaper and more plentiful now?”

        Thanks to mass industrialization and autmation.
        cheap fuel is needed to run our industries. Without it, our economy collapses. Our economic model is pathetically dependent on cheap oil, down to the farming equipment needed for harvesting.

        Oh but listening to you, oil is forever! We can burn and burn and burn and burn, there will always be more. Forever!!!. Now go to bed in your make-believe dream world of infinite oil, infinite farmland and infinite mammals that we are NOT slowly exterminating. I mean buy black rhino power, Black rhinos are infinite! Why fuss about Ivory, Elephants are infinite! Don’t worry about deforestation, forests are renewable and INFINITE!

        Sweet dreams sweetness, I envy your blissful (and willful) ignorance of reality…

    • CosmotKat

      Malthusian baloney.

      • MAlanLewis

        Another meaningless reply that avoids grasping the issue at hand.

        Please refute the above statements.

  • MAlanLewis

    “Environmentalists” are not environmental organizations. Organizations become economic black holes, existing to attract funding at the expense of taking meaningful and effective action.

    Environmentalists do not need organizations to engage in environmentalism.

    • Rob Hobart

      “No True Scotsman” fallacy.

      • MAlanLewis

        Dismissive comments merely beg the question: What is an environmentalist? I expect more dismissive, contentless responses.

    • herb benty

      Greenpeace, Sierra Club, Tides, Tides Canada, ForestEthics ad infinitum. You must think you are talking to lo-info lefties.

  • Zexufang

    Great article.

    I may add:
    The Greens via the EPA granted a special waver to the Don Quixote wind-mill lobby so that the can continue to kill birds – including the American Eagle.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-eagle-death-wind-farm-oil-energy-epa-2013-5

    • MAlanLewis

      There is nothing “green” about wind farms. They are yet another attempt to privatize a free common natural resource to make a profit.

      Wind is available everywhere, as is the sun. Mega-”renewable” energy projects are antithetical to any green perspective on energy production and use.

      • Rob Hobart

        “They are yet another attempt to privatize a free common natural resource to make a profit.”

        So you’re a Marxist as well as a moron. Got it.

        • MAlanLewis

          Marx is dead.

          • herb benty

            But his Marxism lives on, dragging down people.

      • CosmotKat

        Why then does the government need to subsidize what is a source of choice of energy delivery and consumption?

        • MAlanLewis

          The government does not need to subsidize renewable energy technology. The government is heavily lobbied by the renewable energy industry to subsidize renewable energy technology.

          • herb benty

            Nice circular arguement.

  • MAlanLewis

    The world economy is based on economic growth as the engine of consumer capitalism. Economic growth cannot go on forever in a world of finite resources. Therefore, a steady-state economy is inevitable.

    It makes no sense to drive toward the cliff with the pedal to the medal, rather than letting up on the gas and looking for the off-ramp.

    • LudicrousSextus

      I see you took my ‘smoke ‘em if ya’ got ‘em’ comment seriously…

      Makes even less sense to subsidize ‘not ready for prime time’ driving off the cliff tech, eh? Here’s a question, as you seem predisposed to lurk all day…

      How many people could *eat* – and what would the effect be on real-estate beef prices at the grocery store…if half the US corn crop weren’t diverted to an *inefficient* fuel – that incidentally is *worse* environmentally – basically now in play due to the pressure of….well, people like *you*?

      Peace out old guy – that wood ain’t gonna’ stack itself…

      • MAlanLewis

        My wood’s already stacked…

        I have never pressured anyone to convert food crops to fuel, nor would I ever. I encourage everyone to walk or bicycle.

        I don’t eat meat, so I do not pressure anyone to grow food crops to feed to cattle. I encourage everyone to live as low on the food chain as possible.

        • CosmotKat

          I see your sort of a Unabomber type. What particularly feels good to you is what should feel good for humanity in general. There are a lot of ways to live a life, but your type tend to feel they should be the arbiter of the right life to live. It may appeal to your sanctimonious self that limiting what you use or despoil should be the norm for all society. I think you have made a personal choice and one that others may reject. Why does that bother you?

          • MAlanLewis

            I am not a Unibomber type.

            I did not say that anything bothers me. I only related what I do and how I live. Part of that living is encouraging others to consume less and conserve more.

          • herb benty

            What, less milk, eggs, chicken, pork, beef? If I don’t eat that steak, it changes NOTHING, and I do not have to impress the Earth.

          • justquitnow

            No one wants you to feel guilty about anything herb…you go enjoy that steak like a big boy. Just don’t think about environmental issues as whether or not you personally are doing right or wrong…do what you can and encourage public policy that benefits us all longterm. I’ve never understood the backlash attitude…like I’m going to go get a hummer and eat a steak wrapped in bacon. Good thing being an a$$hole doesn’t cause pollution.

          • herb benty

            The last thing that would cause me to feel bad would be the environment and enviro-loonies like you and Lewis. Now, go back to Media Matters and leave sane folks alone already. God not only created everything, He also looks after it.

          • justquitnow

            With everyone that dislikes you painted as crazy kooks and with the creator on your side…you can’t lose.

            FREEDUMB!

          • GopherNo83

            “There are a lot of ways to live a life”

            Indeed there are, indeed there are…

            But, when hundreds of millions live a life that requires so much resources, we can start to judge that lifestyle and wonder if is makes sense…

            You know, CosmoKat, if our current “life choices” would require, let’s say, only 5% of the earth’s resources and we leave the 95% remaining alone, there would be no problem right?

            But the problem is, CosmoKat, that right now, the 7 billion humans consume much much more than 5%. And even then, most of that 7 billion does not need as much as us Westerners.

            Now here comes the problem. Over 2.3 billion chinese and Indians want in on our “life style”…. Oops, problem ahead.

            Compound to this increasing global populations and there you have the gloomy portrait of our future… Overpopulated, overstressed earth. Soooo, let’s keep ignoring these facts and acting like “earth will take care of itself”… I mean, do we really NEED wild animals? They are just taking precious space we could use to grow corn to feed beef to stock McDonald’s and Wendy’s !!!

            Let’s all do the Ostrich danse and stick our heads in the sand! I mean denialism is as dangerous as extreme environmentalism right? Riiiiiight??

          • CosmotKat

            Malthusian thinking. Haven’t we gone over this before?

          • truebearing

            Why are you burning up electricity on the internet? I’ll bet you drive a car, and I know you use fuel for your home, living in Canada. You’re a typical, garden variety liberal hypocrite. You’re the one in denial and sticking your head in the sand…or wherever you stick it.

          • GopherNo83

            I do own a car, two actually. A home. I consume a lot. If all 7 billion humans lived like I do, earth would be ravaged.

            What’s your point? Are you one of those pathetic losers that argue only through character attacks?

            I am old enough now to understand that we need to steer humanity in a new direction and start pushing policies for the benefit of all humanity.

            How about you truebearing?

          • herb benty

            Helping the old man I see, pairs? Anyway, Your totalitarianism is plain to see. “The earth would be ravaged”- simply BS. “steer humanity”, ” start pushing”, ” for the benefit of all humanity”. People bring beneficial change, not governments.

          • justquitnow

            Governments are made of people too…remember “we the people”.

          • herb benty

            The light bulb, electric engines, pasteurization and on and on, were made by free individuals in their shops and garages. Government commities produce nothing. People “push us forward”…citizens unhampered by onerous regs.

    • Rob Hobart

      “Economic growth cannot go on forever in a world of finite resources.”

      In a free-market economy, resources are effectively infinite. Resource depletion only matters on a scale of THOUSANDS of years. At anything less than that, resource depletion is impossible.

      In other words, you’re an idiot.

      • MAlanLewis

        This turns out not to be the case. Natural resources, such as water, are physically finite. Witness the current concern over drought. Other less visible resources are demonstrably finite, such as those scarce elements required to build and maintain the current and temporary cell-phone based communications infrastructure.

        Furthermore, there is no no “free-market economy.” All economies are heavily manipulated to the benefit of their host governments.

        • herb benty

          Mr Lewis, what is your problem, spent too much time with those marxist professors? Matter can neither be created or destroyed, including water. Right now, we are being drenched with rain and a few miles south California is in drought, from the warmer Pacific. Our governments do not control companies! Companies pay exorbitant TAXES. Companies raise our standard of living.

          • MAlanLewis

            About 15 years ago, I lowered my standard of living and raised my quality of life.

            The disparity in precipitation and drought is why we must live bioregionally, living within local cycles of resource availability. With the world so densely populated, there is no “away” to throw our waste, there is no external source to import resources from. All resources are over allocated.

            Corporations pay little taxes, when they pay taxes at all.

            The government of the United States is a corporate oligarchy. The dividing line between corporate and government is as imaginary as the gods.

          • herb benty

            Mr. Lewis, good day! I’ll answer your latest comments then I have other sites and comments to answer. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound! Standard of living is the same as Quality of life. The fact some places get rain and others don’t, is normal, no reason to..”we MUST”. We don’t have to DO anything. “local cycles of resourse availability”- that is pure nonsense. Corporations and rich people pay MOST of the taxes- look it up! The government is the PEOPLE.

          • MAlanLewis

            Hi Herb: No hurry. Waiting is.

            In my life, my standard of living is distinguished from my quality of life. I live at a very low standard of living (you would call it poverty), yet my quality of life is exceedingly high.

            I value simplicity, quiet, contemplation, quality food, good sleep and good health. All these things I have in abundance, and did not have when I lived at a much higher standard of living.

            Here where I live, water comes from surface streams flowing from mountains to the west. There is no other source of water. Therefore we must live within the local water supply.

          • herb benty

            Well bully for you! Being retired, you can do what you do. Some of us must work to live, in the real world.

          • MAlanLewis

            Working does not require one to live at a high standard of living. There is all manner of good satisfying work to be done.

          • herb benty

            I’m baaaack! People work to raise their standard of living.

          • MAlanLewis
          • MAlanLewis

            Water is never destroyed. It is transformed to another form (ice, water vapor, steam) and it is polluted so it is not useful for human consumption.

          • herb benty

            Water can be cleaned by us and nature does a good job of that too. Your, “the sky is falling” attitude is pure enviro-loonie nonsense. I have to go, glad you are enjoying your life, now if you will stop the arrogant nonsense, you’ll be fine. Thanks for the discusion, good luck and God Bless.

          • MAlanLewis

            Yet there is no recourse when humans grow beyond the available water supply, is there?

            I would send your comment about arrogance back for your own consideration.

            Thanks for the conversation. Very enlightening!

          • herb benty

            This world was designed to last as long as it is supposed to, and it will. There are far more important matters than the state of your personal habitat.

      • GopherNo83

        “In a free-market economy, resources are effectively infinite”

        And you call MAlanLewis an idiot???

        • herb benty

          Rob was right! If we run out of sugar, we’ll invent artificial sugar. If we run out of oil in 200 years, we’ll harness atomic or hydrogen power. You don’t give the God-given ingenuity people have enough credit.

  • GSR

    Hard-core environmentalism is a religion for the non-religious. It’s also Marxism disguised.

    • MAlanLewis

      Hardly. Religion is based on faith. Environmentalism is based on science.

      Marx is dead and has nothing to say about environmentalism.

  • Wally Right

    Bruce has failed to accept Obathhouse as his personal dark lord and saviour.
    He failed to mention global warming nor climate change in this article, and nothing about Nelson Mandela either.
    Away with such a dinosaur!

  • 20pizzapies

    Go sell it to the folks in W.Virginia . And don’t forget N.Carolina were Duke Electric was playing russian roulette with their coal damns ……and just lost .

  • 20pizzapies

    Industry does NOT police itself , industry does whatever buttresses the bottom line . Unfortunately concern for the ” humans ” you were talking about , takes a back seat . Deception , malfeasance , side stepping regulations , lying , and corrupt state and local officials usually bring the same results , like the BP platform explosion and spill . Not to mention BP’s TWO previous refinery explosions costing many American lives .
    BTW your estimation of California’s water problems is an amateurish over simplification . But I guess your OPINION is in need of making it’s point eh ?

  • Marc McCall

    I have to correct you regarding no dams built in 35 years….
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Valley_Lake
    I mean it’s no Hoover Dam but… Hey I gotta be proud of something having been born in Hemet :)

  • Marc McCall
  • MAlanLewis

    Thank you all for this most enlightening conversation.

    I hadn’t realized how much the capitalist, libertarian right was obsessed by religion. This explains a lot. When one’s core philosophy is based on mythology, it’s possible to believe twelve impossible things before breakfast.

    • herb benty

      Loving our real Creator, who sent His Son to die for me and my sin is not “obsession”, it’s APPRECIATION. “Mythology” would be earth worshipers.

  • http://newworldisland.blogspot.com/ Arnoldr

    And where do “we the people” fit into the environmental hard core tree huggers and smelt lovers? Science stops when the experts insist they know it all because of the science behind the computer generated models created by experts who have taken every precaution eliminating every possible scenario that could possibly be imagined. Yet, our weather forecasters using millions of dollars high tech equipment are wrong most of the time and still keep their ratings and their jobs.

    • MAlanLewis

      We environmentalists are the people, too.

      I just finished reading the definition of “Left” on the “About” page of this web site. Very enlightening, so to speak. Now I understand the level of paranoia, suspicion, intolerance and appeal to religious authority so well exemplified in this discussion. I had no idea that this splinter of the right had so thoroughly defined itself into an indefensible corner.

      In attempting to define itself, this faction has invented an all powerful, totalitarian “Left,” to make itself feel more important.

      “Fantastic doctrines require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and the hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward.” Ed Abbey

  • MAlanLewis

    Okay, Gang. Help me understand something here.

    This web site is about Christian, libertarian, free-market, private property politics.

    Where does the Israel and Jewish/Palestinian connection come in? I’ve never understood the obsession of right-wing conservative Christians with Israel. It’s a different religion. It’s a different culture. It’s a war-mongering government. It’s opposed to the United States government at the same time it receives billions of dollars of military aid per year.

    Explain this to me, please.

    • justquitnow

      Um…look who runs the website and who gives them money. It’s not really a mystery. I would say more but talking about the chosen people or their god-given homeland around here will get your posts removed.

    • herb benty

      The Judeo-Christian Faith is joined, All the main people in the Bible are Jewish, Jesus Christ returns to(wait for it), JERUSALEM. Real Christians Love Israel, as does God. This “site” is run by a great Jewish man. Israel defending herself is not, “war mongering”. Israel is a friend of Christian Americans, not backstabbing leftist Demoncrats.

  • seewithyourowneyes

    Marxists would like to bury the “inconvenient truth” that the poor and oppressed in Capitalist societies live better than the average citizens in Communist countries. Our success disproves their theories, so our success must be undermined from within. Environmentalism is the perfect vehicle for this campaign. It would blast the developed world back to the Dark Ages and put us on the hook for reparations every time there’s a flood or drought in the Third World. Meanwhile, non-Western countries will continue to pollute as they please.

    • MAlanLewis

      News Flash #2: Marx is dead. There are no more Marxists. Nor has environmentalism ever had a Marxist basis. Class struggle died in 1989.

      The “success” of Western corporate capitalism is fleeting and illusory. Is it a success that the US infrastructure is crumbling, that the US economy is deeply in debt to China, that Arab oil interests own who chunks of corporate America?

      If this is success, I’ll take a large helping of failure.

      • seewithyourowneyes

        Do you live under a rock? Have you never heard of Red Greens?
        Have you never heard the term “watermelon” used by saner environmentalists to refer to other environmentalists whose green blather serves mostly to camouflage their deep Red core?

        Never heard of eco-socialism, which teaches that communal ownership of the means of production is the only cure for environmental degradation?

        Unfamiliar with Barry Commoner, who fought against the notion of population growth causing environmental degradation? Commoner taught that capitalism, not population growth, was the cause of all environmental problems.

        Marx may be dead, but Cultural Marxism now dominates our schools, our press, our media and, apparently, you.

        • justquitnow

          So what are our choices Mr. Binary…can we care about the environment at all without being a Marxist?

          BTW…you shouldn’t cite your own pejoratives as evidence of something.

  • onecornpone

    But that was before environmentalism evolved into a cult for an affluent society of people so rich that they can take for granted their protection from nature by technology and industrialism…

    Yes, and even “conservatives” foolishly ostracizing, demonizing, and advocating vociferously for the demise of industrial agriculture – which they somehow believe can be replaced by more small scale farms. Obviously many of our fellow travlers can’t do math…

    And then there are these people to worry about:

    http://www.spectator.org/articles/33867/land-grabs-and-buffalo-visions

  • herb benty

    Dumb statements. A three inch fish that can simply move down the beach to spawn should deny water to humans?

  • MAlanLewis

    Thank you all for this fascinating peek into a bizarre world of paranoia, religious fanaticism, ignorance, appeal to authority and self-delusion. I knew this was out there, but I had no idea it was so virulent.

    That which cannot go on forever won’t. Unlimited economic growth in a world of finite resources is physically impossible. Insisting that commodities are infinitely substitutable, that human ingenuity will always find an alternative energy source, that free-market capitalism exists anywhere in the world, that an anthropomorphic god sits up nights to admire his creation are all signs of insanity and self-delusion.

    Economists, engineers, corporate lobbyists, military commissars and lawyers should all be shipped off to another planet in another Universe where the laws of entropy do not apply.

    • herb benty

      Spent too many nights at Filmore West I see. God doesn’t sleep. All ex-hippies need help, studies show.

  • MAlanLewis

    Yes, I am an environmentalist, and proud of it. I have accomplished much, brought polluters to court, written environmental legislation, worked with regulatory agencies to bring polluters to justice, documented the Exxon Valdez oil spill and clean-up for the United Nations. I lobby for wilderness, testify as an expert witness at local and regional governmental bodies, research anthropogenic climate change. I advocate create and support local community organization, including neighborhood assemblies and councils. I am an advocate of dispersed, cooperative self-government as the only form of legitimate self-rule.

    I do this all for free as I am unalterably opposed to the dominant corporate capitalist economic system as a scourge of the Earth and the ultimate source of environmental destruction.

    In addition, I am a scientist, an atheist, anarchist, and Taoist. I reject all forms of illegitimate authority, real or imagined.

    I am your worst nightmare, made manifest.

    I am happy and content, as I know that the Earth does not abide fools. No one gets out alive, no species will long endure that takes and does not give back. No species has ever outgrown its resource base and lived to tell the tale. This is the lesson of billions of years of evolution.

    In the end, nature will prevail.

    • herb benty

      Thanks for finally saying how crazy you really are. Look sir, relax. Our Maker says, “seedtime and harvest will continue until the end of the world”. All your fretting about your habitat is for nothing.

      • justquitnow

        The fact that your peace of mind comes from “the Maker” doesn’t make me feel any better.

        • herb benty

          Surely you have a Bible, if not get one. Ask God to give you understanding, and read. You should be able to feel Him, our Lord Jesus will come and dwell with you, and He does. God is gathering His children and there is a cutoff day.

          • Guest

            Oh, didn’t you get the memo. It was LAST month!

          • justquitnow

            I’m very familiar with the Bible. I’ve read it cover to cover and studied it extensively for years. I’m also familiar with the stink of self righteousness that comes off people that never grow up.

          • herb benty

            You can read God’s Word intellectually or with your heart. God respects the latter. Our righteousness is in Jesus, not of ourselves.

        • herb benty

          Well, take a walk through a produce section in a major food store, the wonderful colors of butterflies and sunsets, the 23 degree tilt to earth giving us seasons, 15 psi at sea level that is perfect for us etc.,etc. and pick up your Bible and learn. You will feel a lot better.

        • MAlanLewis

          I haven’t gone away. Where would I go?

      • MAlanLewis

        Okay Herb, I think I have the full picture now.

        I see now why this web site is as it is. Anyone who can believe in an invisible god in spite of a total lack of evidence can also believe in unbridled capitalism, free-markets, unlimited resources, eternal growth, no limits, no recompense, no responsibilities.

        This totalitarian irrationality means that nothing will be done, that humans will outstrip their resources, that human population will crash in famine and disease, and the Dark Ages will return with a vengeance.

        I’m glad I’ll be dead by then.

        • herb benty

          Thought we said bye?

  • justquitnow

    I hope the money’s good Bruce.