Israel Must Defeat the Tactics of Terrorists

kidnapped+israeli+boysIn Jerusalem, Israelis pray for the return of three missing boys and in the West Bank, Israeli soldiers hunt for them and for their captors. But in the midst of all this, it is important not to lose sight of the larger conflict.

Israel made one tragic mistake with the Gilad Shalit deal. That deal, aside from already costing the life of one Israeli, is what led to this kidnapping. One kidnapping turned into three. It can easily become many more.

Defeating terrorist tactics can be more important than defeating terrorists. It is not that hard for a modern nation to kill a terrorist. Drones allow us to kill enemies from a distance at the push of a button. But drones cannot protect the morale of a nation.

Conventional armies use tactics to defeat enemy forces and seize territory. Terrorists however use tactics to take over mental territory. A suicide bomber is not out to take over a particular block. He is out to change how people think about that city block and the larger conflict.

Terrorism has succeeded in accomplishing that goal in Israel. The scale of terrorism turned every piece of land into a mathematical equation. How many lives was this village in Gaza worth? How many lives is this West Bank town worth? How many lives is East Jerusalem worth?

However terrorists are not trading an end to violence for a village or a town. They are calculating how many deaths it will take to force Israel to abandon that village or town. And once they have that town, they will use it to inflict more terror on another town or village.

Israelis were convinced that a price in lives had been put on Gaza and that if they withdrew, the killing would end. But Gaza was just the beginning. Not the end.

Terrorists try to create the perception that the winning side is losing. This perception can be so compelling that both sides come to accept it as reality. Terrorists manufacture victories by trapping their enemies in no-win scenarios that wear down their morale.

That is what has been happening to Israel. The entire carrot and stick of the peace process and the suicide bombing, the final agreement that never comes and the final solution that is coming, were designed to wear down Israelis, to make their leaders and people chase down empty hopes.

The last few decades were meant to create a sense of helplessness among Israelis.

Taking hostages is one form of the no-win scenario. If the winning side can’t cut the Gordian Knot by rescuing the hostages, it faces a choice between releasing terrorists or having to watch its own people held captive or killed. Either one creates a sense of helplessness and defeat.

Terrorists are not attacking land or buildings. They are targeting morale. Their goal is to destroy the mental and spiritual resistance of a people by wearing it down with acts of terror, tying it down with moral and legalistic debates, and finally finishing it off with negotiations that are also designed to wear down the other side without ever concluding a final agreement.

As important as it is to defeat terrorists, it is even more important to defeat their tactics.

The first and best way to defeat terrorist tactics is to refuse to negotiate with terrorists. Terrorist tactics work best when they create complicity on the other side. The first wave of complicity comes from leftist activists and sympathetic terror lawyers making human rights arguments. But the second wave of complicity has to come from the authorities for terrorism to be successful.

Negotiating with terrorists makes the negotiators complicit in whatever plans the terrorists have. Once negotiations begin, the terrorists will force the negotiators to violate their own side’s values and to sell out portions of their own population or those of allied countries. These tactics allow the terrorists to divide and conquer the enemy.

A terrorist group that seizes hostages from Country X in exchange for Country Y freeing prisoners has managed to turn two of its enemies against each other. If Country Y frees the prisoners, the terrorists win. If Country Y doesn’t free the prisoners, they still win because Country X will now blame Country Y, rather than the terrorists, for what happened.

Swap the two countries for two groups of people inside a country and it becomes easier to understand what the terrorists are trying to accomplish by taking hostages.

Israelis were convinced that they could buy their way out of the problem by betraying their fellow citizens living in the West Bank and Gaza. European leaders are convinced that they can have peace in their time by pressuring Israel and restraining America. American leaders are convinced that peace will come if they can pressure the Europeans and Israelis to stop offending Muslims.

This is classic divide and conquer.

The greatest danger of fighting terrorists is falling into a reactive pattern. The more you react to what terrorists do, the more they set the agenda. Taking hostages is the ultimate reactive trap. The kidnapping of three Israeli boys has sent Israel into the same predictable pattern, rounding up the usual suspects, making temporary arrests and a public outcry that, like the one surrounding Gilad Shalit, can easily be turned into a campaign to pay any price to free them.

The only way to defeat a terrorist tactic is to invalidate it. The act of invalidating it is often painful, but it’s less painful than not doing it. Refusing to negotiate with terrorists cripples their ability to set the agenda. It’s hard to divide and conquer people who won’t talk to you.

Human shields proliferate because they work. The only way to invalidate them as a tactic is by reacting to terrorists the same way whether or not they are using a human shield. Hostages are taken because the terrorists have a realistic expectation of striking a deal.

Eliminate the deal and the hostage taking ends.

Terrorists create a sense of helplessness by forcing a society to experience pain without having any control over it. The experience of being terrorized is not merely horror and death, but the inability to control how it happens. It is this need for control that leads to Stockholm syndrome, identifying with terrorists and accepting their agenda in exchange for having some control over their terror.

It is not enough for a society to endure the pain that terrorists inflict. Every society has its breaking point. Instead a society must be willing to inflict pain on its own body to prevent greater pain and suffering. A society that cannot do this is so focused on avoiding pain that it so no longer able to fight back.

Israel has already gone too far down the road to helplessness. And it is not alone. Every nation, society and culture confronted with Islamic terrorism seeks ways to spare itself the pain. But the pain can only end when the terrorists are thoroughly defeated.

War is a form of pain that we inflict on our society to spare ourselves the greater pain of conquest and defeat. Resistance to terrorism may also require other smaller forms of martyrdom that allow a society to assert control over its own destiny.

One of these is not negotiating with terrorists.

When a society is willing to defy the power that its enemies wield over it by causing its own pain, it destroys their power over it and escapes the helplessness that will otherwise kill it. It breaks free of the chain of concessions that will inevitably lead it to lose its soul.

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  • truebearing

    Absolutely brilliant! This may well be your finest work yet, Daniel.

    I’ve never thought of this dynamic in this way, but it makes perfect sense. Pain is a given in life. It is inescapable, even in the best of times. A nation must accept that pain will never go away and that lapsing into guilt-driven helplessness over things that evil people have done only rewards the perpetrators with more leverage to inflict more and more pain. Becoming too pain averse ironically increases the likelihood of yet more pain. Pain can’t be eliminated, but it can be controlled by never letting terrorists get control of our emotions, which to them is the joystick of uncontrolled pain.

    Let the evil ones take the blame for their actions. Don’t let them trick any of us into condemning each other or ourselves because there isn’t a painless solution to their malignant no-win traps. Israel faces a terrible test. I hope Daniel’s wisdom spreads far and wide.

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      • SCREW SOCIALISM

        Go to mecca.

    • Daniel Greenfield

      The persistence of evil is one of the most important things that the moderns have forgotten. Human evil doesn’t go away.

      We can defeat Enemy X or Y, but a society endures because it fosters the virtues that allows it to defeat them, not because it won one war.

      • truebearing

        The battle with evil is never ending, but neither individuals nor nations can battle evil if they don’t believe it exists, or don’t fight it on a spiritual level. Moral clarity and virtue are the domain of religion, but we have drifted into secularism and moral relativity, hence the confusion and weakness. Political correctness — designed to smother moral clarity and disable the survival instinct — has infiltrated our cultures and now we’re reaping the “rewards” of ignoring the human survival code and the source of strength and goodness. Evil is filling the vacuum. We humans don’t learn from history.

  • Judahlevi

    The extrapolation of the logic of this argument is that any hostage which is taken has an automatic death sentence – at least in the short run. I am not sure this is the only alternative.

    Another approach would be to cause greater pain to the terrorists than any pain they would cause. Israel is already rounding up numerous individuals, many more than the 3 Jews who were kidnapped, which will also cause pain. There are probably other ways Israel can, and should, cause additional pain.

    These are difficult decisions – and I am glad they are not mine to make. But the utilitarian approach that the needs of the many outweigh the few is not always the correct moral decision.

    • StanleyT

      I’m not so sure rounding up hundreds of “Palestinians” solves anything. Firstly, they get paid for spending time in jail – much more than they could probably earn in the outside world. In jail, they get to consort with hordes of like-minded terrorists. Their families can visit them often and reach them by cell phone at any time. They can receive food and gift packages at any time and they can even undertake university studies. Finally, they know that their chances of getting released in exchange for other kidnap victims or empty promises of peace talks are pretty good.
      So what’s the deterrent in imprisonment?

      Israel has to toughen up life for prisoners. Treat them as if they really are prisoners, not guests of the state. Deduct the amounts paid to terrorists by the PA, from tax revenues Israel collects for the PA. Stop being so darn soft!

    • Daniel Greenfield

      I’m not saying it’s the only alternative. The best alternative is to destroy the terrorist group. The second best alternative is to free the hostage.

      But in a context in which a society has sunk to the point of helplessness where it’s not about to follow all the proposals on here to keep bombing the terrorists, it has to break free of that sense of helplessness by denying the terrorists control.

  • tickletik

    You are incorrect Daniel. Your tactic basically is the equivalent of a mother telling her confused bullied son to ignore the bully when he hits him in the face,

    The correct response to behavior that we wish to see more of, is to reward it,

    The correct response to behavior we wish to discourage is to make it cost.

    When the boys were taken hostage, the immediate and correct response would have been to do exactly what we have been doing, and to make it clear that the PA has exactly one week to return the boys, else Oslo will be scrapped and a full scale invasion will begin to liberate the entire areas of Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

    If at that time the boys were not found, entire groups of people including whole villages would be rounded up and simply thrown out of the country.

    That is the correct response, it is the logical sane response of a healthy breathing country. Our current response is the neurotic bravado of a grasping ארס who wants to cut some back alley deals with some bastards but needs to save face when the bastards rape his kid brother.

    • Daniel Greenfield

      No, that’s not at all what I’m saying.

      ” Your tactic basically is the equivalent of a mother telling her
      confused bullied son to ignore the bully when the bully hits him in the
      face in school.”

      This is what I am saying,

      “It is not enough for a society to endure the pain that terrorists inflict. Every society has its breaking point. Instead a society must be willing to inflict pain on its own body to prevent greater pain and suffering. A society that cannot do this is so focused on avoiding pain that it so no longer able to fight back…

      War is a form of pain that we inflict on our society to spare ourselves the greater pain of conquest and defeat.”

      Ignoring terrorists is enduring and it doesn’t work. That is my entire point.

    • mollysdad

      Another way to proceed is to land a Hellfire missile on the next mosque in which Jews are mentioned in connection with apes and pigs.

      • Lightbringer

        … and then to airdrop large numbers of real apes and pigs onto the site…

        • Drakken

          Now why would you want to waste perfectly good animals on a bunch of sub human savages?

          • Lightbringer

            Good point. Also, Jews are forbidden to engage in cruelty to animals.

      • Drakken

        I am very partial to napalm myself, it works wonders for urban renewal.

  • Gamal

    I don’t think there is anything wrong in rounding up the usual suspects. I think of it as simple reward and punishment. If you reward terrorist behavior you get more of it, if you punish it you get less of it. Israel was right to rearrest those they released for Gilad Shalit. That sends the right signal. What would send an even better signal would be retaking parts of Gaza until the teenagers were released. Kidnap the children of terrorist leaders. Then it’s OK to bargain with terrorists. If they want their children back they have to release your teenagers. Very simple.

    • Drakken

      You don’t arrest these savages, you shoot them enmasse if you have too, it works. That is how you bargain with a raghead.

  • stephencarter

    The solution is astonishingly simple. When someone is abducted and the head-hackers come out with their demands, then simply issue a counter-demand. If the innocent abducted is not returned by midnight then at 12:01 a community within the borders of wherever the terror group operates from — will be destroyed by missile attack. The identity of the village is released at 12:00, one minute before the town is destroyed. Then the next night, if the abducted citizen is not released, destroy another two towns. Then the next night, three towns. Period. We have to become utterly 100% indifferent to the taking of Muslim lives, period. We have to become utterly ruthless, like machines of destruction operating by the letter of whatever we say will happen. Muslims are essentially like feral dogs, irrational, pulsating with hate & venom & feelings of entitlement. They NEED a little tough love, they NEED to feel the absolute implacability of meeting a horrendous fate, happening exactly as we say it will happen. They will scurry away and become utterly silent. They’re bullies who rely on the bleating of eunuch cowards like Obama to move forward with their plans. The solution is stand up to these bullies, call them out, deliver on your words 100%. Make them pay for every murder, every abduction, every lie …

    • mollysdad

      This is absolutely correct, and there is a mitzvah for it in the Law of Moses. Hamas are committed to the annihilation of the Jewish people. As such they answer the description of Amalek, and they do it perfectly.

      You shall blot out the memory of Amalek under heaven (Deuteronomy 25). Now, go and crush Amalek; put him under the curse of destruction with all he possesses (1 Samuel 15:3).

      • Americana

        What a remarkable vision of foreign policy — look to the Bible for hints on how to smite your enemies. You complain about the Muslims reciting their hadiths about the destruction of the Jew and the dehumanization of the Jews and yet you do the very same thing. The broken record plays on…

        • mollysdad

          The Bible is the Word of God and is useful for instruction, guidance and training in righteousness. An example of the practical application of the curse of destruction is the execution of Adolf Eichmann by the State of Israel in 1962 and the execution of ten of Hitler’s henchmen at Nuremberg. Amalek is identified in terms of his criminality, not his religion or lineage.

          The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam is a false religion. Christianity is not. Muslims recite hadiths about the destruction of the Jews as a nation. God’s law requires the total destruction of Hamas, save for those who spontaneously manifest Christian faith and ask for baptism.

          • Americana

            Go ahead and believe what you will. Muslims might recite the hadiths but you’re certainly ready to whip out your own Biblical exhortations to kill the Arabs (or the Amaleks). I’d say the Commandments are quite different from the Biblical exhortations to defend home and family.

            As for this whole “Islam is a false religion” business, that’s such a pile of horseshoe*t, I’m surprised you’d write it. All human belief systems are one step away from being ridiculed in the very same way you’re ridiculing those of Muslims.

            God’s law requires the total destruction of Hamas? Those Hamas members who are caught have to face FORCED CONVERSION or they’re dead meat? Listen to yourself and then recognize that you’re playing at the same game those Muslim jihadists are playing at when they perform forced conversions.

          • carpe diem 36

            killing them is better than converting them.

          • mollysdad

            Only God can convert them. The question is, will the water of baptism find them before the sword does?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Converts can revert. The dead don’t.

          • Drakken

            Amen!

          • mollysdad

            There’s no biblical commandment to kill Arabs, but there is one to kill Amalek (although it’s said that the Amalekites were the first people to speak Arabic). You identify a man as Amalek as you convict him of the crime of genocide where the victim group is either the Jews or the Christians. Alternatively, you do it where he wages war against the Christians or the Jews and calls it holy, whether he does it for the sake of Islam, Adolf Hitler or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

            Think of the distinction between Germans and Nazis.

          • Habbgun

            One of the more difficult things about trying to help someone with
            Asperger’s is they correct you a lot. Eight year olds. Forty three year
            olds. Twenty six year olds. It doesn’t matter. Every person with
            Asperger’s feels this same need; to be the guardian of correct words and
            ideas. Instantly and without exception.

          • Americana

            Being a self-important Pretend-For- A-Day diagnostician makes it very hard for you to see it’s evident your profession has nothing to do w/psychology or psychiatry and you’re speaking out of that other orifice…

          • Habbgun

            b and c for sure….A — no way to know.
            2.All-absorbing narrow interest
            (at least one of the following)
            (a) exclusion of other activities
            (b) repetitive adherence
            (c) more rote than meaning

          • Americana

            You are a hoot, Habbgun will travel. Tossing psychological maladies around and claiming someone shows signs of this, that or the other, is a tactic that is much used by the right. Time to upgrade your tactics otherwise you’ll be seen as being all half-baked psychology and psychodrama, all the time.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Hate to burst your socialist bubble but people who rejected the wonders of Socialism in Stalins Russia were sent to mental hospitals for “treatment”.

            Comrade Stalin was a right winger? Surely you jest.

          • truebearing

            Any idiot can see that Islam is religious plagiarism, but then you’re not just any idiot. Islam was clearly created using Judaism and Christianity as source material. It sought to gain legitimacy as an Abrahamic religion by including many of the key figures of the Talmud and New Testament, but perverted their original messages and history. The end result was a hodge-podge of contradiction and deception, but with an unmistakable mandate to commit every sin in the Bible in the name of Allah. It is original only in it’s systematic indoctrination of its adherents into evil. No other religion encourages its adherents to destroy all other religions or rape, enslave, or kill all non-members.

            Despite the fact that Judaism predated Islam by a mere 2500 years, and Christianity predated Islam by at least 500 years, Mohammed made the ridiculous claim that both copied Islam. I’m not sure that even a leftist could make a claim that is that patently absurd, but feel free to try. No doubt you’ll see it as a worthy challenge.

            Your moral clarity is doing its disappearing act, yet again.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Truebearing AKBAR!

          • Americana

            Not sure why you’ feel you’ve got to run through your litany of complaints about what Islam does under its name once again since we agree on those things that need to be changed or DROPPED ENTIRELY from Islam’s belief system. I don’t fail to say Islam needs to update its moral code. In fact, since I’ve championed a reformation of Islam, I’d say it’s fairly self-evident I don’t find it a palatable religion in many respects. Why you think I have a problem w/acknowledging Islam is a conflation of the other two main religions is anyone’s guess. You really think I’d quibble over something so fundamentally stupid and undeniable? But Christianity is derived from Judaism so let’s not pretend that many or most religions experience a virgin birth. That might happen for isolated tribes but certainly not in inhabited regions where religions are competing for adherents. Why Mohammed chose to do that is self-evident. Why Mohammed also chose to make all sorts of claims against Judaism and Christianity is also self-evident. That is still not going to make Islam disappear as a religious demographic around the world.

          • Drakken

            There will never be a reformation of islam since the goddamn devils book, the Koran is unchangeable. All people, religions and cultures are all not equal, no matter how many times you click those ruby red slippers together and wish upon those rainbows and unicorns.

          • truebearing

            “As for this whole “Islam is a false religion” business, that’s such a pile of horseshoe*t, I’m surprised you’d write it. All human belief systems are one step away from being ridiculed in the very same way you’re ridiculing those of Muslims.”

            That was a hare-brained, false moral equivalency, that is why I pointed out Islam’s cut and paste history. Come to think of it, you are fond of cut and paste thinking…

          • J.B.

            If the evil portions of islam were removed, there wouldn’t be enough of it left to be a religion. More than eighty percent of its written word ate commandments to do evil and descriptions of the evil thing Muhhamad and his followrrs did. Less than twenty percent concerns religion at all, and that consists of mistellings of Biblical stories. Even the commands yo submit to their mythologicaloon deity are evil because allah is described as being supremely evil – which is why islm appeals to the worst of humanity. The horror storires about the loathsome evil don’t come close to t evil proudly saattributed to allah by hisfanaticsthe. Of allah ord of islam.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Why are there checkpoints at every airport in the world?

            What common trait was shared by the 19 9/11 hijackers, the convicted bomber of Pan Am 103, the blind sheik of the 1993 WTC truck bombing, the Boston Marathon bombers, the Fort Hood shooter, the savages who beheaded Lee Rigby in London, the 7/7/05 London transport bombers, the assassin of US Senator and US Presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy, the boko haram kidnappers of 300 girls in Nigeria, the savages who attacked Mumbai India?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Clarification, the cowardly assassin of RFK was not a muslim – but he did claim a particular nationality..

          • Drakken

            No simpleton, you make the mistake of giving those goddamn savages moral equivalency to us of the west when there isn’t any. Keep listening to the leftist useful idiots of Peace Now(May they all be lined up against the wall soon) and other leftist western hating Quislings, meanwhile the muslims laugh are your abject stupidity.

          • Americana

            I’m not just listening to the “leftist, useful idiots” of the Peace Now organization. Didn’t you look at the other peace organization I posted that was all Major Generals from the Israeli Armed Forces and from the Mossad? They’re at least as worldly and strategically wise as you claim to be and they’re committed to a two-state solution. I’m fine w/being in their strategic company. You should look at their web site and email some of them if you won’t take my word for what they’re saying. Off to get you that link again and I don’t want to hear word one from you until you’ve read their web site from top to bottom.

          • Drakken

            They are fools, every goddamn one of them, you defeat your enemy by killing them period. History is my guide, not some misguided politicians whose bread is being buttered by useful idiots of the left, effem. I will bet you a cool grand that your utopian wonderland of a two state solution will never happen, so put your money where your mouth is and put up or shut up. The time has come to put an end to this peace farce and start killing some ragheads.

          • Daniel Greenfield

            Don’t you wonder why the heads of intelligence services that are rarely known for peacenik attitudes are pushing this?

            You may want to look a bit deeper.

          • Americana

            No, Daniel, I’ve looked “deeper,” and, obviously, I don’t see what you’re seeing. Get the lead out and spell out exactly what you claim is happening w/these Mossad, Shin Bet officers and directors and those Israeli Army and Air Force Major Generals who are backing a two-state solution. This is equally as valid a story for you to write as anything else you’ve ever produced so go ahead and write it. I’ll be fascinated to see what evidence you produce. It had better be gosh durn compelling.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            There already is a two state solution.

            Israel and Jordan.

            Are you talking about a 3,4,5+ state solution?

          • Drakken

            Look at who is paying them shortbus? Your a useful idiot in following them blindly as you are doing. I call kumbaya singers like you cannon fodder.

          • Drakken

            They are all tied together shortbus, so yes you are following them and their leftist agenda, wake the fu** up and smell the coffee.

          • Jeff Ludwig

            Conversion isn’t involved. Hamas’ leaders are not being asked to convert. They are rejected by decent people everywhere, even those moderate Muslims whom you like, and thus need to be eliminated. They are listed as a terrorist organization by the U.S. government. It’s not theoretical. They are the bad guys. Those who reject them are the good guys (or good gals).

        • Habbgun

          People with Asperger’s less likely to see purpose behind the events in their lives:

          Why do we often attribute events in our lives to a higher power or
          supernatural force? Some psychologists believe this kind of thinking,
          called teleological thinking, is a by-product of social cognition. As our ancestors evolved, we developed the ability to understand one anothers’ ideas and intentions. As a result of this “theory of mind,”
          some experts figure, we also tend to see intention or purpose—a
          conscious mind—behind random or naturally occurring events. A new study
          presented here in a poster at the 22nd annual meeting of the Association for Psychological Science supports this idea, showing that people who may have an impaired theory of mind are less likely to think in a teleological way.

          • truebearing

            Oh-oh! She doesn’t care for psychological insight. Now you’re in for some verbal diarrhea.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Break out the goggles.

          • Habbgun

            Its actually for her own good. Someone with Aspergers (assuming I’m right and I have a feeling I am. She gave herself away with some odd answers) shouldn’t be playing around with Leftists and Jihadis. They aren’t going to see the condition as anything but weakness. Aspies are catnip to bullies and we are dealing with psychopaths. She can’t really understand what this is all about. She can only understand the words but not the emotional satisfaction that sadists get from their actions.

          • truebearing

            I agree. Most likely she won’t see it as help but as an existential threat to her edifice of carefully stacked politically correct beliefs.

            She also shows up on any thread that has to do with Israel and starts in with her thinly veiled anti-semitism. Whether it is driven by her need to belong to the politically correct crowd, or it is a truly personal bias I can’t say.

          • Habbgun

            It would be hard for her to see anything I do as help. I laced into her pretty hard. I thought she was a real Jew hater and those type need the pushback. .

            I’m sure she isn’t. She kept saying you want to hide the jihad, hide the jihad over and over (meaning Palis) but then cut and pasted a whole bunch of waste of pixels showing that Israeli leaders believe in land for peace. She denied ever saying Israelis don’t want peace.

            Here’s the thing. The context of hide the jihad is that Israelis and Jews have something to hide. That they can’t openly talk about what is happening in the region because they are the actual aggressor. It is a slur. She doesn’t get that. Didn’t even realize she was actually contradicting herself. She won’t get the context of the words. She picked it up somewhere but doesn’t understand what the jerk who said that was after. She just sees that as meaning as much as any other words. They can get intellectual meaning but not social context. She can’t understand what a hater wants and needs.

          • truebearing

            It’s hard to isolate the cause for beliefs held by leftists. Collective thinking is by definition superficial and unoriginal. Depth isn’t their forte. Ideology can induce some pretty serious psychological maladies, as we see with the sociopathy of the Islamists. The Left creates political sociopaths like popcorn. The sociopathy of some people is genetic. For some it is the result of indoctrination at a young age. To some extent, we are what we choose to believe.

            If you are correct about the Aspergers, which you may very well be, then indoctrination will work even better. People who are psychologically vulnerable are the group suicide bombers are recruited from, so your point about “playing around with lefties and jihadis” is well taken. They use the vulnerable as expendables.

            So, what is your theory for American hanging around a site that she opposes politically in every way, and that is frequented and written by a high percentage of Jewish people?

          • Drakken

            She does quote from every goofy leftist organization including those bloody traitors at peace now in her pursuit of moral equivalency and trying to put round pegs into square holes. Tragic really.

          • Jeff Ludwig

            Yep.

          • truebearing

            There appears to be almost completely incapable of sustained logical thinking.

            Needless to say, she won’t admit why she stays here and irritates people until they abuse her. She may have masochistic tendencies.

          • Americana

            You guys are disgusting in your choice of tactics. Absolutely nothing is beneath you guys. But the fact the world sees you using these tactics against individuals like me, and the fact these tactics are the equivalent of calling the Palestinians “Fakestinians” means that you’re identified as being liars and frauds. You may feel you’re doing the best for Israel but that’s debatable. Major Israeli military and intelligence figures say it’s feasible to have a two-state solution. Those types of Israelis have both the tactical strategic chops and the intelligence to outrank Drakken’s thinking on the matter of what is defensible for Israel or not. They also outrank and outflank those like truebearing.

            Why do I want a solution? Because this is a major tactical problem for the United States. It’s also a guarantee risk for the future of the Israeli state if she continues to stonewall the Palestinians. It might have been possible to stonewall during periods when advanced weaponry wasn’t available to the Palestinians. That is no longer guaranteed to always be true.

          • Drakken

            I have history on my side, you have a bunch of paid leftist that have an ax to grind. So who is right? History or you? I’ll take history for a thousand.

          • Americana

            I’ll take the many Mossad and Shin Bet and Israeli military guys against your viewpoint, anytime, Drakken. They’re equally militarily qualified, actually FAR MORE qualified than you, since they were RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PROTECTION OF ISRAEL in her entirety and many have worked in senior capacities all the way up through the ranks. They’ve seen everything they’ve dealt to the Palestinians and they believe peace is able to be accomplished while still providing for Israel’s security. You don’t like their perspective, let’s have them argue their case w/you.

          • Drakken

            Kumbaya kumbaya, kumbaya. Keep wishing on those rainbows and unicorns, I am absolutely sure they will magically appear. ;) Yes I am so sure they are far more qualified than me, I mean why would my company pay me the big bucks to make decisions and make things happen so one of these dinosaurs can continue to spout utter complete BS. Really ?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            You don’t like Fakeistanians? How about Pal-e-SWINIANS? Koranimals? Sand naz is? Savages? Jihadis?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            The greatest dangers to the continued existence of Mecca are Pal-e-SWINIANS, al qada, Islamofascist regime of Iran, boko haram, hezbullah, ISIS.

            The deck is stacked against Mecca by your friends.

          • Habbgun

            Good question. She’s right. I have a very different low brow profession. So hard to really know the specifics. On the other hand we once ended up with an autistic coworker and once you caught on it was unmistakable. You can start checking out websites and you’ll see that she runs into the description. You don’t need to be an auto mechanic to know a flat tire.

            My guess is that its because they don’t get offended. Just like she doesn’t get the fact that there may be real hate behind propaganda she doesn’t feel anything when attacked. It would not feel any different. Being on a commie website wouldn’t make her feel any different either. She wouldn’t feel the satisfaction of group think. She would get ostracized for not knowing when to cheer though.

            Here she gets to interact in a way and go round and round.They never tire. They need repetition. They never get bored.

          • J.B.

            You didn’t ask me but based on her pretentious misuse of Grammar, diction and definitions, I’d say she writes for some far left blog. Maybe her own or maybe somebody else’s. Her English mistakes are standard for professional writers on both sides of the Atlantic, and lunatic fringe “journalists” love to troll conservative blogs, so that’s a clue.

            I haven’t seen her use any, diction or idioms unique to the (non Canadian) Commonwealth, but she could be concealing them.

          • truebearing

            Yes, I think her 12 gallons of koolaid per day may have a lot to do with her whacked out perspective and persistence in arguing, and losing, ad nauseam.

          • Americana

            true bearing’s misuse of “obviate” sort of obviates the need for me to write more at length on this whole tack of yours, J.B. Effen pathetic. Point out the mistakes shared by professional writers… Start from NOW….

          • Americana

            Unfortunately for you, Habbgun, I’m well aware of the sociological context of the hate between Arabs and Jews/israelis. But the two peoples are living side by side so what is going to continue to happen? I’m not the one providing the contradictory words. The two nationalities themselves are providing the contradictions. But avoiding the untenable status quo is getting the region nowhere.

          • Drakken

            That is why it will be solved by war.

          • Jeff Ludwig

            How about this…there are bad guys and good guys. The Israelis are the good guys, and the Arabs in the region are the bad guys. Jews and Christians are more “good” than Islamics. Islamics kidnap teenage girls and boys and rape and torture them. Jews and Christians do not. It’s really not theoretical stuff.

          • Habbgun

            You are such an Aspie you confuse a sociological context (an explanation of social conditions by an academic) with the emotional need of haters (or as you would call them….neurotypicals). Since you don’t experience that emotional world you can’t relate to it and don’t know when you are confronted by it. That is why you are always into moral equivalence. An aspie has trouble seeing social context. Sociological context you can do just fine.

            From now on I’ll just cut & paste things from the web and pretend I’m conversing with you just like do with everyone else.

          • Americana

            The Israeli major generals and ex-Mossad and Shin Bet guys who support a two-state solution would laugh in your face at the cheapazz tactics you’re attempting to hamfistedly use to your advantage. It’s like watching a bunch of propaganda paparazzi… w/all of you adding your own little touches. Off to email an invitation to this party to the Israeli generals and the Mossad and Shin Bet guys.

          • Drakken

            You don’t understand or study history do you? I would highly recommend that you crack open a few books starting with the ancient world and work yourself to the modern age. Keep believing the useful idiots of peace now, I am sure that they will steer you in the right direction, just like that dumbazz Rachel Corrie.

          • J.B.

            She doesn’t want peace in Israel or a two state outcome. She wants the islamopithecines to annihilate Israel.

            Doncha, Anti-Americana?

          • J.B.

            What Israelis who support a two state step toward the destructipn of Israel would those be?

          • Americana

            The Palestinians aren’t “carving a state our of Israel” but, rather, they’re repossessing what was taken from them. You’re such a Zionist you believe the malarkey about israel owning all that land despite being conquered by many subsequent cultures umpteen millennia ago?

            Oooops, and there’s one of the famous bloopers by the FPM crowd. “INDIGENCE?” Really? (And you think I’m the one whose word definitions are effed up? Hysterical.) You really, really, really don’t mean to use “indigence” in this sentence. Think just a bit harder and maybe the basis for your blooper will come to you…

          • Americana

            No, I can’t wait any longer… They’re indigenous people whose indigence is partly the fault of constant economic pressure and limited markets because of boycotts and restrictions. But Israel, Israelis and the world’s Jews can’t pretend that Palestinians are owed nothing of that land of which they were dispossessed. The Palestinians aren’t asking for land out of indigence, nor are they owed land to solve their indigence; they’re asking for land out of indigneity.

            Indigeneity as recognized by the United Nations:

            The original definition was accepted in 1972 by the UN Working Group for Indigenous Peoples, but was considered too restrictive and was later amended to what follows in 1983.

            Indigenous populations are composed of the existing descendants of the peoples who inhabited the present territory of a country wholly or partially at the time when persons of a different culture or ethnic origin arrived there from other parts of the world, overcame them, by conquest, settlement or other means, reduced them to a non-dominant or colonial condition; who today live more in conformity with their particular social, economic and cultural customs and traditions than with the institutions of the country of which they now form part, under a state structure which incorporates mainly national, social and cultural characteristics of other segments of the population which are predominant.

            (a) they are the descendants of groups, which were in the territory at the time when other groups of different cultures or ethnic origin arrived there;

            (b) precisely because of their isolation from other segments of the country’s population they have almost preserved intact the customs and traditions of their ancestors which are similar to those characterised as indigenous;

            (c) they are, even if only formally, placed under a state structure which incorporates national, social and cultural characteristics alien to their own.

            In 1986, the following rather important line was added;

            any individual who identified himself or herself as indigenous and was accepted by the group or the community as one of its members was to be regarded as an indigenous person (E/CN.4/Sub.2/1986/7/Add.4.para.381).

            ILO 169

            The ILO 169 Convention applies to the following peoples;

            both tribal peoples whose social, cultural and economic conditions distinguish them from other sections of the national community and whose status is regulated wholly or partially by their own customs or traditions or by special laws or regulations, and to peoples who are regarded as indigenous on account of their descent from the populations which inhabit the country at the time of conquest or colonisation.

            WORLD BANK

            In 1991, the World Bank adopted the following definition of indigeneity.

            Indigenous Peoples can be identified in particular geographical areas by the presence in varying degrees of the following characteristics:

            a) close attachment to ancestral territories and to the natural resources in these areas;

            b) self-identification and identification by others as members of a distinct cultural group;

            c) an indigenous language, often different from the national language;

            d) presence of customary social and political institutions; and

            e) primarily subsistence-oriented production.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Your Pal-e-SWINIANS are indigenous to Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and so on.

          • Drakken

            Psst, Peace Now activist, those ragheaded palis lost the land in wars they started, to the victors go the spoils.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            The Jews were in Israel FEFORE the prophet of Satan called Muhammed was in crapping in his mothers hairy arms.

          • J.B.

            Or maybe she’s just a typically deranged lefty who sympathizes and sides with the enemies of her own country or culture.

          • J.B.

            The whole world lives side by side acording to you lefties, so your claim that the Psuedostinian terrorist jihad against Israel is unique is specious. The whole “international community” belongs to one big “global village,” so the islamic jihad against civilization is just another part of it. Riiiight?

            There is no country of Paleostine so the Psuedostinians sre not a nationality. ThePA and hamas are terrorist organizations that defend on handouts from the West to survive. That and suicidal Israeli welfare.

          • Drakken

            Frankly speaking, she has been so steeped in leftist dogma, that she actually believes that all people, cultures and religions are the same, plus the added measure of a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome.

          • Habbgun

            You did guess right. Its an admitted Brit. How did you know?

            “We know its a fool. Now we need to know what kind of fool it is.”

          • Drakken

            How did I know? It is all in the reading of the nuance and inflection. The Brits and their offspring are marinated with self loathing and self hating socialist filth that you can smell them a mile away.

          • Americana

            Well, it helps that I’ve stated multiple times that I’m a dual-national. Not much insight required when someone provides someone w/the facts.

            As for you, Drakken, you’re a perfect product of Marine training. The fact you think killing is the one and only solution is indicative of your being unable to analyze beyond that point of a military solution. But Major Generals in the Israeli Armed Forces say a two-state peace is possible. Much as you’d like to portray your military prowess as indicating the one and only solution to the status quo, I’ll follow the advice of the Major Generals and the Mossad and Shin Bet guys. They can’t possibly be considered by you to be “marinated in self-loathing.”

          • Drakken

            I keep telling you shortbus, and pay attention for once instead of open your mouth and insert foot. Those folks that you give as an example for peace, they are paid by leftist organizations and they are paid well, money talks and your leftist pig ignorant opinion that their opinion matters makes you gullible and it makes you stupid, because you believe what they say is true, because you wishful thinkers completely ignore facts and instead rely on feelings.

          • Americana

            Former Israeli Major Generals are paid by Leftist orbs to state they believe it’s possible to achieve a two-state solution? Oh, yeah, that’ll be the day that ANY Israeli General sells out his country that way.

          • Drakken

            Look at who is paying them shortbus. Follow the money and you find out the agenda, it’s called connect the dots, or do I have to draw the complete picture for you to understand?

          • Americana

            They get pensions and besides they aren’t being paid enough to make appearances it would make them sell out their country. As I’ve said before, I’m going to go issue some invitations to these significant high-ranking Israelis to come and defend their perspective on here. I’m sure they feel it’s indicative of what role American Zionists are playing in the continuing furor over legitimate Palestinian claims. I know they feel it’s counterproductive to have their perspectives being drowned out by people like yourself. Perhaps if you hear it from their mouths, you’ll stop slandering and libeling them.

          • Drakken

            It isn’t slander and libel when it is true dumbazz. You are way beyond ignorant, your plain ole effing dumber than bag hammers and there is no educating you, you have to find out how reality really works, the hard way. You peace now traitors are a clear and present danger to us all.

          • Americana

            Drakken, you truly believe these top rank ex-Israeli military are guilty of selling out their country? Show me some proof they’re getting honorariums that are worth enough to get them to sell out Israel. Getting a couple of thousand dollars to speak once a year or once every couple of years doesn’t encourage treason. You’re not even being realistic w/your claims. They’re completely FABRICATED out of the same conspiracy theories much of the rest of the anti-jihad material is fabricated. Of course, that’s expected since you’re shilling for the other side of the equation.

          • Drakken

            Please, by all means, show me that I am wrong, come on now Hunyuk, show me! Your utter disbelief is because your worldview is one of make believe, wishful thinking, COEXIST at any price, and ignore reality because it doesn’t feel good. Put your azz on a plane and go there, live it, breath it, touch it, taste it, instead of relying on some one else to think for you. We are talking millions Hunyuk, not thousands of dollars, in your mind, it just does not compute. Just to help you out since your a tad thick, just look at the donors and who sponsors these “peace events”.

          • Americana

            Not good enough, honeyuk. Ever seen a former Mossad or Shin Bet director or a Major General who’s moved up to a palatial house? Not a one. Besides, if this were happening, the right wing papers in Israel would be having a field day w/exposes of for-hire Big Mouths from the Mossad and the Shin Bet and the armed forces… Those right wing newspapers simply wouldn’t let a scandalous story like that die. But it’s NEVER BEEN A NEWS STORY! Why is that? Because it’s not true. It’s your wishful thinking. It doesn’t matter who sponsors those talks if the honorarium isn’t huge. They could all be sponsored by billionaires and it still wouldn’t indicate that the ex-military Israelis who are suggesting the only route forward is a two-state solution are being foolish and traitorous.

          • J.B.

            So your owner/husband is a Psuedostinian, eh?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Americanas jihadi husband should know that his wifey has cheated on him with an Infidel.

            Let Sharia take its course with Americana.

          • Americana

            Habbgun, truly, your attempts to work together as a collective think tank to ‘save the poor Aspergers woman’ in this portion of this thread are silly (if not downright full of sh*t). I’m not worried about being taken advantage of by jihadis and Leftists. I don’t represent jihadist opinion, I’m not likely to meet any jihadis and Leftists are part and parcel of our American political scene.

            I’m well aware the sadism inherent in these vast ethnic cleansing regional takeovers by these Muslim jihadists is something those jihadists will likely be willing to perform for their entire lives. They are a threat to various nations and they pose a significant threat to America’s regional interests. But they are a separate issue from the moderate Muslims elsewhere around the world even if from within those moderate Muslims springs a certain number of wacko jihadis. The jihadis in North Africa also are a separate issue from the Palestinian Arabs. Much as you’d prefer I not write that, it’s true. Israel, to me, stands her best chance of survival if there is an eventual peace settlement w/a reasonable land allotment to the Palestinians.

          • Drakken

            There is no moderate islam sunshine, there is only islam, and where ever islam goes, the blood always flows, without exception, and your so immersed in leftist moral equivalency that you cannot see what is right in front of you. You have been told numerous times, the effing ragheads will never ever give the Israeli’s any peace because of the simple bloody fact, they want all of Israel and will pay any price in blood to get it.

          • Jeff Ludwig

            Yep.

          • Jeff Ludwig

            The moderate Muslims are unable to control their immoderate terrorist brothers and sisters. Therefore, at present they are ineffectual. The Nazis did not win a majority in the Reichstag, but they were able to take over and direct Germany for 12 years. Talking about moderate Germans being “the majority” would have been a non sequitur in the late 1930′s just as referencing Muslims as basically moderate is not useful today. I know you want to see the good in people, and of course there are Muslims you can talk with who won’t slit your throat; but that doesn’t help us understand the dynamics of the interaction of the groups in the Middle East.

          • Habbgun

            (b) repetitive adherence
            (c) more rote than meaning

          • truebearing

            She likes to regurgitate a lot, too.

          • truebearing

            Once again, you show your complete and utter lack of understanding when it comes to Islam. The Imams, Sheiks, and Ayatollahs are all Islamists. The leader of Iran is a radical Islamist. The leader of Turkey is an Islamist. Islam is reawakening and becoming the bloodthirsty horde it was in the past, and it is doing so because more Muslims are following the radical teachings of the Quran.

            The so-called moderate Muslims are the ones who either don’t want to be Muslim, but are afraid to reject it, or are apathetic. They are like the vast numbers of people in this country who don’t bother to vote. Neither the Muslim moderates or the apathetic Americans are running the show. A minority runs both countries, and the Muslims in power are not moderate, with very few exceptions.

          • SoCalMike

            Americana,
            Change your name.
            You’re absolutely clueless and worst of all mentally conformed.
            There’s no greater insult I can level against someone.

          • J.B.

            Anti-Americana,

            You “don’t represent jihadist opinion”……….? Actually, that’s the most consistent thing you do on this website. And the “moderate” muslims you describe are a myth. Any muslim with pretentions to moderation is not practicing islam and is an apostate marked for death by his own religion. More importantly, he has no power whatsoever to oppose jihad. There aren’t even any muslims with the will to do so. islam is a terroristic cult to its core. Any muslim who defend’s the existence and practice of islam defends terrorism, and therefore is a terrorist whether he blows people up or not.

            Trolltard.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “They are a threat to various nations and they pose a significant threat to America’s regional interests. But they are a separate issue from the moderate Muslims elsewhere around the world even if from within those moderate Muslims springs a certain number of wacko jihadis.”

            So making a new state will be OK because the PA swears up and down that they’re moderate all while indoctrinating their children to worship Jew murderers.

            You’re not very bright. Sure it would be nice to think that a couple of guys and gals that want to go secular will be able to lead the way in to the future for the Islamic State of Palestine and Jerusalem. It will never happen that way. You can’t get from A to Z just by wishing for something. It would be like adding another Saudi Arabia except that this one will be on Israel’s border and seen as having an obligation to continue leading the jihadi vanguard to bring the Jews under control. By any means necessary. Just like now. That is the agenda.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          Moronicana,

          What is it about you that makes you so dense that you can’t see that the people you champion, Pal-e-SWINE, Islamofascists, are guilty of what you charge Israel and the US ok?

          What is wrong with you? When did you lose your moral compass?

          • Americana

            I’m not championing them and I’m certainly not dense. I’m also certainly not claiming that Israel has done nearly the total number of civilian deaths that the Palestinians have done. There can be neutrality in a straightforward portrayal of their rights concerning that land. i just refuse to believe as many here seem to that if we simply portray them as Fakestinians, that fact of blowing off their origins is going to MAGICALLY make them go away. You think if this situation comes before the United Nations again over any other aspects of their statehood bid that the U.N. is going to pretend that their provenance is FAKED? (Besides, the U.N. has already offered them the first rung of statehood.) Because the Israelis, who happen to want all of that land without encumbrance, say it’s so?

            My moral compass is fine. In fact, considering compasses require certain types of rare earth to function, your remark makes me realize even more that being grounded is what enables one realize the diplomatic dilemma in the Middle East is untenable as is. My moral compass intuits /my sense of what should be done in the region but I’ll leave the major generals and the Mossad who are peace activists to strategize over land allotment. If they arrive at a strategically defensible state then I’m sure they’re convinced they can maintain it whatever comes.

          • Drakken

            Hmmm so who are we going to pay heed too?? History? Or a bunch of leftist politicians who get paid for their hypocrisy by leftist organizations? I’ll take history any day. Pssst, Peace Now is a communist organization who openly support and defend Islamic jihad around the world, and that is why that anti-American hating leftard Rachel Corrie is screaming for company to join her where she belongs.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Eternal Nakba for Saint Pancake!

          • Americana

            You know very well that the other Israeli peace organization is strictly Israeli ex-military with many Major Generals of all stripes from the various armed forces as well as numerous Shin Bet and Mossad directors. They’re not Communists and they’re surely not stupid. I’m FINE w/being in their strategic corner viz the Palestinians and a two-state solution. They wouldn’t be confident of its success if they didn’t have full faith and assurance they could pull it off.

          • Jeff Ludwig

            Had trouble following this comment. Seems a bit disjointed. However, instead of Fakestinians, I would say Frankenstinians.

          • J.B.

            Anti-Americana:

            “There can be neutrality in a straightforward portrayal of (Psuedostinian) rights to (Israel.)”

            No there cant. The land has never belonged to them, and they are a fictitous ethnic group made up of riff-raff from the outside islamic world. Any claim to their rights would be a “portrayal” rather than reality.

            The Psuedostinians aren’t going away? That’s the problem. Instead of going back to where they came from, they are trying to annihilate the Jews and steal their land and property. They must be driven out, and their forces destroyed.

            The UN has no authority over Israel, and no moral authority at all. JUST LIKE YOU, trolltard.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “i just refuse to believe as many here seem to that if we simply portray them as Fakestinians, that fact of blowing off their origins is going to MAGICALLY make them go away.”

            So debunking fraud is not legitimate because according to you it’s based on a desire for magic results. Where did you get that one from?

            How about the idea that debunking fraud forces the scammers to become more realistic about what kind of lies they can get away with in the future?

          • Americana

            Debunking the pitch that the Palestinians aren’t millennial, long-term inhabitants of that region has already been decided upon by the United Nations. You can keep mouthing off about it, but the selfishness behind the fraud you’re trying to commit on behalf of the Israelis isn’t going to be successful.

          • Drakken

            The land belongs to those who take and hold it, when your fakestinian friends whine and bitch because they lost the wars they started, your going to have to pardon me for my lack of sympathy or empathy for a buch of savages.

          • J.B.

            The only fraud is the Psuedostinian myth that they’ve been in Israel since time immemorial, a phras they stole from the Jews in a typical act of appropriating other people’s identity. There is no Palestinian language, culture, tribe or ethnicity. Their phony identity wasn’t even concocted by the Arab League until 1967, and it didn’t catch on until the early seventies. Only young Psuedostinians who grew up under PLO/ PA indoctrination believe they really are a real e with real claims to Israel.

            Jews have lived there for 3000 years. The UN is as corrupt, deceitful and anti- Semitic as you are. Who cares about your murderous lies, trolltard?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “Debunking the pitch that the Palestinians aren’t millennial, long-term inhabitants of that region has already been decided upon by the United Nations.”

            What? You think the UN is “authoritative” in deciding how to read “history?” Really?

            Here I thought your username was some reference to your national affinity.

            “You can keep mouthing off about it, but the selfishness behind the fraud you’re trying to commit on behalf of the Israelis isn’t going to be successful.”

            Translation: The UN is a powerful force that doesn’t actually care about provable facts. Except that if I were you I wouldn’t be counting those chickens yet.

            And by the way – why is it so difficult for you to expose this “fraud” you claim I’m behind? You’re selective presentation of facts (along with occasionally trying to add your own spin) doesn’t impress anyone and therefore I’m the fraud?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Arabs want a Muslim only Middle East, ignoring the uncomfortable truth that non-Muslims, Jews and Christians, have lived in the Middle East BEFORE the prophet of Satan called Muhammed came on the scene.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “You think if this situation comes before the United Nations again over any other aspects of their statehood bid that the U.N. is going to pretend that their provenance is FAKED? (Besides, the U.N. has already offered them the first rung of statehood.) Because the Israelis, who happen to want all of that land without encumbrance, say it’s so?”

            Basically you’re encouraging people to give up because fighting fraud is too hard?

          • Americana

            If you think this kind of fraud is going to be successful, go ahead, keep promulgating it. It’s easily seen through for what it is considering the Jewish nation was expunged from the region thousands of years ago by one conqueror after another. If the original Jewish kingdoms hadn’t been conquered, then why the diaspora? You can’t address one crucial aspect of Jewish history without stating by default that the Jewish kingdoms were extinguished in Judea.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Americana objectivefactsmatter • 7 hours ago: “If you think this kind of fraud is going to be successful, go ahead, keep promulgating it.”

            All you have is “you too” when I point out the massive fraud at the UN?

            “It’s easily seen through for what it is considering the Jewish nation was expunged from the region thousands of years ago by one conqueror after another.”

            Your side is the one promoting fantastic versions of history.

            “If the original Jewish kingdoms hadn’t been conquered, then why the diaspora? You can’t address one crucial aspect of Jewish history without stating by default that the Jewish kingdoms were extinguished in Judea.”

            And therefore you favor jihad? What???

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “My moral compass intuits /my sense of what should be done in the region but I’ll leave the major generals and the Mossad who are peace activists to strategize over land allotment. If they arrive at a strategically defensible state then I’m sure they’re convinced they can maintain it whatever comes.”

            Do you consider the state “defensible” now? Do you think it’s better to go for more security or less, while creating more incentives for future acts of terror?

            You can’t get “peace” in exchange for land unless you are prepared to offer a spectacular deal that offers 100% of Israeli sovereignty over to the “PA.” And what kind of peace is that? It’s the Orwellian peace of death.

          • Americana

            I don’t believe that is true. Despite Hamas statements to the contrary, there are other Palestinians who say they’re willing to accept a reasonable offer of land. I say there should be a peace settlement that is offered in referendum form and depending on how close the vote in both nations, peace talks proceed w/that referendum guidance.

          • Drakken

            Of course you don’t believe it’s true because you think the ragheads are reasonable people that want peace and will sing kumbaya with you, your leftist narrative and moral equivalence with a people that are anything but is an abomination. Sorry honey, your wrong, dead wrong.

          • Americana

            What I think is that there’s relatively little difference between what is true now security-wise and what the situation will be if we let them have an official state viz what the security demands would have to be. I don’t believe they should be able to militarize. That’s hard to understand? You see that as being so drastically different from today’s conditions, how?

          • Drakken

            You keep living in this make believe world that somehow someway that the Israelis, if they just gave the fakestinians everything they want, that peace will suddenly appear, it won’t. The muslims want all of Israel no matter the price in bloody to get it. You just can’t get it through that little lefty pointed head of yours.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            You need to provide links to support your belief.

            Otherwise you are dealing in wishful thinking and taqiyya.

            Prove your claims.

            As we all know, any “palestinian” who want a peaceful settlement to the conflict are labeled traitors. Care to speculate how hamass deals with “traitors”?

          • Americana

            I’ve provided plenty of links. You do your own search under Palestinian-Israeli peace organizations if you’re interested. Not all Palestinian peace activists are executed by Hamas. There are plenty who’ve been working on peace for decades.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Which paleswinian officials are working on peace?

            Which paleswinians oppose the dehumanizing descriptions of Jews as sons of pigs and dogs????

            You make the claim. Back up your claim. Otherwise you are a Liar.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            You sure are gullible.

            You first have to establish that you’re dealing with a true sovereign. States are built by sovereigns, not some dream of outsiders. The PA already has built in excuses for letting the terror continue because so many in the West are so stupid.

            There is no viable state for you to even consider that stage. IF they had ever developed a stable de facto state on their own with a unified sovereign, THEN you could consider that. You can’t consider that because they have never even come close.

            It’s just international pressure that has so many people pretending and then others follow along as if wishes and fantasies become true if only you get the magic recipe on paper. It’s a bit more complicated than that.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            > I’m not championing them and I’m certainly not dense.

            You have been posting your many and lengthy blather long enough that profile of your mindset has emerged.

            Yes. You DO champion Pal-e-SWINIANS at every opportunity – ignoring Pal-e-SWINIAN depravity due to you dense thinking..

            > I’m also certainly not claiming that Israel has done nearly the total number of civilian deaths that the Palestinians have done.

            Your moment of clarity, followed by your BUT…

            > There can be neutrality in a straightforward portrayal of their rights concerning that land

            How can any honest, sane person be NEUTRAL with a society that:

            - alls for genocide of Jews as commanded in the koran
            - murders opponents and drags their body through the streets of gaza behind a motorcycle as an example
            - uses children as human shields while firing rockets at Israel so that when Israel retaliates, any child who is killed is cynically used as propaganda.

            > .I just refuse to believe as many here seem to that if we simply portray them as Fakestinians, that fact of blowing off their origins is going to MAGICALLY make them go away.

            But they are FAKE since there NEVER was an autonomous Muslim majoriity palestine

            and Jerusalem is NEVER MENTIONED ONCE in the Koran – so the claimed mportance of Jerusalem as the THIRD holiest site for Muslims is another lie. Wouldn;t a Muslim holy site be mentioned in the Koran???

            > You think if this situation comes before the United Nations again over any other aspects of their statehood bid that the U.N. is going to pretend that their provenance is FAKED?

            A UN hijacked by Islamist dictatorships, theocracies has lost its honesty. The UN Human Rights Council has had Human Rights ABUSERS sitting in judgement of other countries – making the UNHRC a joke. And Arab/Muslim entities that brainwash kids into believing that Jews are the sons of pigs and dogs should lead the UN to censure those Arab/Muslim entities – but doesn’t. Even UNICEF can’t bring itself to denounce such vile hatred.

            > (Besides, the U.N. has already offered them the first rung of statehood.)

            Offering Statehood to a 58th islamofascist entity brings more shame to the UN.

            > Because the Israelis, who happen to want all of that land without encumbrance, say it’s so?

            Arabs/Muslims want all of Israel – but Israel isn’t Sharia compliant – and has the means to make sure that greedy Arabs/Muslims never achieve their hateful koran inspired goal.

            > My moral compass is fine.

            Your many posts prove you wrong.

            > My moral compass intuits /my sense of what should be
            done in the region

            OK. What should be done in the region? Let Islamists continue to kill in Syria – 160,000+ dead (Arabs killing Arabs)? Fascist Iran should be permitted to execute gay teens without encumberance? Stone girls to death? Kidnap 300 girls and force them to convert to islam?

            If Arabs can’t get along with fellow Arabs, how can any NON-ARAB get along with Arabs?

            You can’t claim to be NEUTRAL because your posts disprove your claim. YOu have taken sides. You side with Islamofascism that murders people all over the world.

            If your moral compass was functional, you would renounce your past – but you continue on your self deception.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “Offering Statehood to a 58th islamofascist entity brings more shame to the UN.”

            The PA is already the supposed 57th state.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            57/58. It’s hard keeping an accurate count.

            Looks like the British created Iraq is going to break up into 3 entities. Maybe they can carve out a Pal-e-SWINE with oil from the mess currently called Iraq.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Not your fault. They started using the number 57 way before they went to the UN so I can certainly understand why anyone would be confused.

            It’s very hard to keep lies straight, but there you have it.

          • Americana

            You think the Palestinians would have announced a jihad of any kind if they hadn’t been dispossessed of their land and property by the British and the nascent Israelis? You think that, out of the blue, the Palestinians of today would simply announce a jihad and start blowing up airplanes for any reason? The answer is ‘NO.’ Therefore, the Palestinians have a legitimate reason. Or, rather, legitimate reasons. And no matter how often you embellish the Israeli story, the Palestinians would never be in the situation they’re in today if not for Israeli terrorism.

        • Lightbringer

          Rubbish. Anyone with two working brain cells knows that moral equivalence is a ridiculous rhetorical device.

          • truebearing

            One of hers is on strike over poor working conditions.

          • J.B.

            That excludes lunatic fringe lefty bloggers like Anti-Americana.

        • Drakken

          There you go again, giving a sub human bunch of savages moral equivalency with us of the west. You have been so indoctrinated with the leftist thought process that you have a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome. Muslims understand and respect only one thing, the mailed fist, and our failure to understand or realize this is bleeding us dry. The reason we keep singing the same tune is because we haven’t changed the record. When they kill one of yours, kill a couple thousand of theirs, sooner or later as they run out of bodies, they might get the message.

        • J.B.

          He didn’t quote the Bible, you ignoramus, and the Psuedostinians have earned destruction. All of islam has. “The cycle of violence”” polemic you regurgitated is false. It’s psy-ops propaganda.

          Why do you support terrorism, troll? Are you an islamopithecine practicing takiya or a leftwing traitor?

      • Lightbringer

        Agreed. But there is also a mitzvah of redeeming hostages, a practice that has been very profitable to brigands of every denomination throughout history, since they knew that they could always get the Jews to give them everything they owned in exchange for a hostage.

        • mollysdad

          Remember that Bible story about how King David rescued some of his family who had been carried off by the Amalekites?

          • Judahlevi

            It is not a mitzvah to kill innocent people. Destroying entire villages would inevitably do so.

            I have no sympathy for the terrorists and they deserve a swift death. But Israel will not become a terrorist to fight terrorism. That is not the answer.

          • Habbgun

            It is not a mitzvah to allow continuous warfare and a slow bleed. It is never a mitzvah to have fortified elites and vulnerable masses. It is not that the world has to know we will kill innocents. The world has to know we consider each and every Jew sacred and will act accordingly. If they get in the way so be it.

          • Drakken

            Then you will lose, just so you can say you took the high moral ground. It is coming down to a very simple equation, the muslims, or us westerners.

          • guest

            My how highly you think yourself to be.

            You get to say who is and is not innocent.

            You’re a disgusting immoral wretch.

            You’re why airports world wide are under siege. You’re why muslims have children to mutilate and strap bombs on them.

            You make this all possible, because you make it impossible to be stopped!

            You disgust me.

          • Americana

            Don’t you dare call someone who’s pondering all military facets of this issue a disgusting immoral wretch! Judahlevi has the humanity to not let his voice be overridden by voices advocating genocide. Those advocating genocide here and calling Muslims inbred apes and all the other slurs are guilty of the same inhumanity of which you accuse the Palestinians. Airports worldwide are under siege because the world, specifically the United States, failed to assist the Israelis in arriving at a peace agreement. End of story.

          • Drakken

            Airports around the world are under siege from muslims and their actions having nothing to do with Israel. Your feelings are getting in the way of your common sense, which is anything but common.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Take your self righteous fascism and shove it.

            Airports are under siege world-wide because the self proclaimed “religion of peace” is at war with EVERYBODY – including Muslims killing Muslims in Syria.

            Genocide is the handiwork of socialists and islamofascists. End of Story.

            Whenever there is a plane crash, missing plane as MH370, the first thought is that it is another Islamofascist terrorist attack.

          • J.B.

            Are there really any innocent Psuedostinians besides infants? Seriously? And if you oppose annihilation, do you also oppose eviction?

          • Judahlevi

            And you “seriously” want to destroy villages with women and children (including infants) in them?

            Does anyone want to sincerely try to call that a “mitzvah?”

            Then do you want Israel to be no better than the Palestinian Arabs?

          • J.B.

            You’re putting words in my mouth. I plainly didn’t make either of those claims. Reread what I wrote.

          • J.B.

            P.S.,

            How is a woman’s life worth more than a man’s?

          • Americana

            Ah, so you ARE saying it’s fine to kill women and children?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            hamass, hezbullah, al qada, boko haram ARE saying it’s fine to kill women and children.

            And they DO kill women and childrenj.

          • Drakken

            Yeah, you just don’t lead them as much. ;)

          • J.B.

            Hamas women. Yes, absolutely.

          • Americana

            That’s quite different than agreeing that exterminating entire villages of Palestinians is acceptable.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            “exterminating entire villages” is the socialist and islamofascist way of war.

            We see it in Syria where 160,000+ have already died.

            The rubble of villages in Syria is the work of Islamofascism.

      • J.B.

        Is that a legitimate mitzvah? The Simeonites exterminated the last surviving Amalek long ago. I agree that the Psuedostinians need to go the way of the Amalek, but does this mitzvah apply?

        • mollysdad

          The last surviving Amalekites were Haman and his sons whom we read about in the book of Esther. Whether they were physical descendants or not is immaterial. Amalek has only spiritual descendants today, namely his partners in crime.

      • J.B.

        Does a mitzvah about the Amalek really apply to hamas? The Simeonites wiped out the last surviving Amalek thousands of years ago. Hamas deserves to be wiped out and every member deserves to be killed but not because of a mitzvah. That sounds like a fatwa to me.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          Just as the US Navy Seals did the world a favor by knocking off osama bin laden,

          Israel did the world a favor by sending hamass heads snake yassin and his successor rantisi to H E L L.

          Israel needs to knock off ismail haniyah and khaled mashal – AND nasrallah in the north.

    • Bert

      In theory you are right. But we know from bitter experience that Obama and others will always attack Israel if they tried this approach and Israel always fears to come under attack from the U.S. I would modify this by first issuing an ultimatum to Obama as bank roller and supporter of the Palestinian Authority. Tell Obama that if he fails to persuade the Arab terrorists to release Jewish hostages by Israel’s deadline, Israel will respond with DISPROPORTIONATE violence and the blame will be on Obama. That will take uncharacteristic courage but Jews must either stand up for themselves or suffer the consequences.

      • Gee

        Bert – no matter what we do Odumba and others will always attack Israel regardless of our approach

    • Dina

      Stephen, out of all the replies and solutions offered in this thread, yours is absolutely THE BEST and hits the nail exactly on the head of what our attitude should be towards these subhuman vermin and the people/religion that spawns them.

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      One problem. The islamofascist savages will counter by claiming that the hostages will be placed where the retaliatory target is.

      Islamofascists are using tactics used by the devilish founder of Islam.

      The Koran may also have tactics to frustrate the tactics of Islamofascists.

      • Gee

        Claims of dead savages hardly matter

      • Lightbringer

        Which is why Steven Carter suggests that the name of the town to be destroyed will be released one minute before the missiles hit.

        • truebearing

          Why not do it lottery style and identify 20 towns, one of which will be annihilated. Give them five minutes. All 20 will have to evacuate, at some cost. There will be 19 winners and one loser, but the “winners” will tire of the stress and suspense. The terrorists will have little chance of choosing the right town to place the hostages, and will be concerned that their town may get hit instead of the one they chose for the hostages.

          Another benefit to the method you proposed is that it would have Palestinians riveted to their radios, listening to Israeli broadcasts. That would be a good time to expose them to truths Hamas doesn’t want heard.

    • Daniel Greenfield

      Force is astonishingly simple, but we’re dealing with societies that have sunk so far into helplessness that they aren’t capable of having a purpose that they will keep to in the face of a backlash.

      • Texas Patriot

        There is nothing more cruelly inhuman than the kidnapping of a child. Communities that knowingly sponsor it forfeit their right to exist.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          Didn’t the US institute the death penalty for kidnapping after the Lindburgh (spit) kidnapping?

          Kidnapping is a big industry in South/Latin America.

    • Americana

      How fortunate that you’re willing to dehumanize your enemy and thus settle for this kind of disproportionate violence. What if the British had done this in response to the Irgun attacks?

      • Habbgun

        It is often asserted that Aspies use language somewhat rigidly, or sound very pedantic. Could it be that a similar perfectionism
        in expressing an idea, a similar subconscious frustration with the
        inaccuracy of language, is at play when Aspies try to put ideas onto
        paper?

      • SCREW SOCIALISM

        The enemy already describes Jews as sons of pigs and dogs.

        Is that dehumanizing on your radar?

        The British set up the Jews of Israel to be as defenseless as the Jews of WW2 Europe were. But thanks to Czechoslovakia, Israel had guns to defend themselves and defeat their attackers.

        The British expected the Jews of Israel to be defeated in a second Holocaust by their Arab enemy, without the protection of the British.

        I bet a lot of British elites were upset.

        I bet YOU too are upset that the Israelis are able to defeat their islamofascist enemies.

        • Americana

          The British weren’t hoping the Palestinian Arabs would have killed off the Jews once the Brits pulled out. That’s ridiculous. It’s equally ridiculous to claim that I’m upset over the Israelis being able to defeat their enemies. I am upset, however, over the fact I don’t believe Israel can continue to do this balancing act forever and what will happen as fallout if the Israelis continue to frustrate the Palestinians.

          • Daniel Greenfield

            They would have settled for the Jews being forced into a tiny British protectorate or turned into refugees.

            British officers led the assault on Israel in the War of Independence.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM
          • Americana

            Just how much land do you think the Jews were owed in the region, Dan, given that it wasn’t their land to take? Since when did the Brits give any indication they were interested in taking on a Jewish British protectorate? That’s a bizarre suggestion. The Balfour Declaration was conceived in extremis thanks to Jewish terrorism. No British diplomat in their right mind would have partitioned off that region in that fashion if they were thinking straight and they’d consulted the Arabs beyond the initial diplomatic decision to promise them a favorable partition if they fought on the British/Allied side.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Moronicana said:

            “The Balfour Declaration was conceived in extremis thanks to Jewish terrorism.”

            What Jewish terrorism? 9/11, 7/7/05 London transport bombing, beheading of Lee Rigby, shooting of Yvonne Ridley?

            Oh. Those were acts of Muslim terrorism. Are you saying that British appeasement is due to Muslim terrorism of Brits in Britain?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            If the Brits permitted European Jews to escape the Holocaust by entering “palestine” then you might be right about the British.

            If the Brits permitted the Israelis to acquire guns and tanks and planes to defend themselves from FIVE British equipped attacking Arabs armies (none of the five was the army of “palestine”) then you might be right about the British.

            The British leaving Israel unarmed in the face of five Arab armies is a setup up for what??? Peace?

            Israel should stop trying to placate the haters of the world.

            The balancing act of apologists of “the religion of peace” facing the realities of the news of the latest atrocity committed by Arabs/Muslims is not going to end well.

            Israeli will continue to defend itself and Arabs/Muslims will continue to raise their demands, continue to kill in Europe and the rest of the world.

            It is inevitable that the tide will turn and Islamofascism will FINALLY be acknowledged as the Crime Against Humanity that it is – and you will be denied your victory of hate.

          • J.B.

            Your claims are ridiculous because the only Palestinians in Israel before, during and after its independence were Jewish. None of the various muslim ethnicites considered themselves Palestinian. It’s obvious that you do wish Israel had never been founded and that you want to see it destroyed. Yes the Israelis frustrate the Psuedostinians. Victims often frustrate their attackers by living.

      • Drakken

        You must first be human in order to be dehumanized in the first place. The point of Irgun is moot, since that was 60 years ago and we are dealing with the here and now.

        • Americana

          No, you’re not letting the Irgun terrorism fade into history simply because it happened a long time ago. The Irgun is very relevant given that you’ve all insisted that terrorism is unacceptable. Yet here are the Irgun guys w/hundreds of assassinations and mass terror bombings and chemical attacks on behalf of the founding of a Jewish state. If the Irgun were STILL fighting for the founding of a Jewish state and had made no progress and were in the same state of frustration as the Palestinians of today, you think the Irgun guys would still be quite as selective about their targets as they were at the beginning of their rampage? Somehow I very much doubt it.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            G-d Bless the Irgun FOREVER.

            Whatever the Irgun did to liberate Israel from the British and Arab invaders is dwarfed by Arab/Muslim terrorism and Sunni/Shiite internecine warring.

            See /9/11, Syira, Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Fascist Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia and murderous attacks in Britain, France, Russia.

          • Drakken

            Now your lying out your azz. Irgun didn’t use chemical weapons, and there weren’t hundreds of assinations and no mass terrorist bombings. So your pint is moot. Your inbred muslim friends on the other hand have brought jihadist terror to a whole new level.

      • J.B.

        The Psuedostinians and all other islamopithecines dehumanize themselves, and they do it willingly. And oh, yeah. The Brits did dehumanize the Irgun as a general rule.

    • SoCalMike

      Agreed.
      100%.

    • carpe diem 36

      this is needed to be done only once. the lesson will be a good one. Israel should not worry about what the world will say or what the UN will say or whatever or whoever. use as much force as is needed and once will be all that is needed.

      • Lightbringer

        And the Ay-rabs will parade out their professional mourning women and their dead children, as always. Even if nobody gets a scratch.

    • Judahlevi

      Nothing about this is “astonishingly simple.” It is a moral dilemma.

      To kill individuals who are not involved with kidnappings in order to try to force the kidnappers to release their hostages puts Israelis in the same moral gutter the kidnappers are in. We are better than that.

      You don’t defeat the enemy by becoming the enemy.

      • guest

        You are disgusting.

        And your ridiculous moralizing is why this never ends.

        First, you DO NOT become the enemy by defeating him, period.

        And you cannot change the context of war, any time you chose. Muslims are at war with you, with all of us, if we chose to admit it or not. It’s war, it’s not kidnapping, it’s not crime. It doesn’t matter if they are throwing rocks or sticks or missiles.

        It doesn’t matter if they are weak and pathetic.
        You kill them, you end this.

        You are disgusting, morally disgusting.
        All the future dead are because of you. It’s on you.

        • Americana

          You are disgusting yourself, guest. Worse yet, you are short-sighted. Even if the most extreme measures were taken to kill countless numbers of Palestinians inside Palestine and Arabs in surrounding nations, Israel would only earn herself a reprieve from confronting the reality of her own birth as a state.

          • Drakken

            Extreme measures have not been taken as of yet. But that day is a coming for those savages you have empathy for, so richly deserve it.

          • truebearing

            You mean Israel has to confront being born thousands of years ago? I think they know all about their history. You on the other hand need to face the reality about the palestinians utter lack of a history.

          • J.B.

            What fictional birth crime does Israel need a reprieve from? When it was legitimately founded in 1948 it was invaded by five Arab armies bent on genocide, and afterward the Eastern half was occupied by Jordan for 19 years.

            You are an ant masquerading as a troll who simply objects to certain Israeli policies when it. It’s obus yo object to Israel’s very existence. Martin Luther King Jr had anti-Semites ic phonies like you pegged.

        • SoCalMike

          Guest,
          Take a breath.
          The morally disgusting we are fighting against.
          Judalevi is one of us and on our side.
          Of course we see the need to defeat the enemy.
          We also don’t want to take out innocents in the course of warring or at least minimize such as much as possible.

          I don’t want to annihilate an entire village of 100s or 1000s of men, women and children because I saw a single enemy combatant or 2 or 3 take refuge there.
          I prefer to remove them as cleanly as possible without slaughtering innocents. I sense you agree with this at least on some level.

          • Drakken

            There is no such thing as a clean war, never has been and never will be.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Defeat Islamofascism for the good of Humanity.

      • Drakken

        There is no morality where issues of war and peace are concerned. I am always reminded that folks like you who claim to be “better than that” always take their rightful place of the high moral ground, they are buried in it.
        To fight evil, one must get downright medieval with the sub human savages that want you all dead. History has proven this correct always. There is a reason why everyone remembers Carthage.

        • Judahlevi

          There is always morality.

          Hobbes description of human life as “nasty, brutish, and short” with man constantly at war with other men may work for you. It doesn’t for me.

          My experience is tempered by being a former US Marine. I know war is sometimes necessary, but it should be the last option.

          • Drakken

            I am a former Marine myself, and I am on my 3rd decade of dealing with these goddamn savages. War my friend is a constant of the human condition and has been since the dawn of time and will be for a least another couple of millennia.

          • Judahlevi

            Semper Fi, Marine.

          • Drakken

            Amen Brother! Semper Fi Marine.

          • J.B.

            War IS the last option with islamopithecines. It’s also the first option for any country that cares about its citizens.

        • SoCalMike

          Drakken,
          You definitely get it.
          Thank you for your service.
          But Judalevi is correct here.
          Morality on our side is always a factor except when dealing with evil and bad guys.
          At that point under those circumstances the only morality is to annihilate the bad guys.
          That is a good thing and always something to celebrate and value.
          US Marines are some of the most moral people I’ve ever met in my 1/2 century on this earth.

          • Drakken

            Mike, yes us Marines are moral when it comes to our everyday dealings with most everything in life, for that is true, but when it comes to the enemy, you close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, and my added cavit, by any means necessary.
            Where Judalevi is concerned, I follow the 12th Commandment, Thou shall never criticize a fellow Marine in public. Where Jude and I have differences, those are solved over a good bourbon or 5.

      • Americana

        I agree, Judahlevi. It’s a horrific moral dilemma. It’s also abundantly clear that strategizing over some of the options is leading to more brutality in terms of more and more extreme suggestions.

        • J.B.

          Protecting or sparing islamopithecines causes civilized human beings to be killed. The only moral dilemma is how many of them need to be killed before they submit to civilizasion.

      • SoCalMike

        Judalevi,
        You’re a good soul.
        But the moral obligation in warring is to create the disincentive to stop the Jew-hating war mongers and hostage takers.
        That requires tactics that tend to offend our own civilized and advanced sensibilities.
        Overwhelming force and superior killing of the enemy is the best moral outcome and result. As many and as fast as possible.

        You can’t turn 7th century animals into 20th and 21st century humans but you can AND MUST show them where the lines are drawn and the penalties are paid.
        This is an obligation to the innocents we are supposed to protect.

      • SoCalMike

        Israel can’t afford to lose ONCE.

      • J.B.

        All Psuedostinians are devoted to the destruction of Israel. There is no moral dilemma.

    • Metatrona

      Fabulous solution! You are due great respect and honor! I salute you.

    • aspacia

      Didn’t the Nazis do this in Paris?
      Simply destroy the Arab prisoners to prevent the hostage scenario.

      • Drakken

        The SS did it to a French town outside of Paris because they butchered a Officer and his driver, it worked.

        • Judahlevi

          And we certainly want to copy the SS.

          • Drakken

            I use the example of the Waffen SS and some of their tactics that are an example to follow because they worked, not because I believe in their cause.

          • Hank Rearden

            The Waffen SS is something that Germany will never live down. It was the army of the Party, not of the State and was known for its brutality.

            And…when the Russians finally closed in, the Waffen SS were very anxious to cut off their insignia. They went down scuttling.

            You seem not to know that the IDF is a citizen army. After the war, its soldiers have to go home to their families. The IDF must have a moral basis for its actions. It is from that that it acquires it cohesion, its force. Assigning it atrocities would be the best way to (a) destroy it and (b) destroy the State.

          • J.B.

            The Russians only made it to Berlin beause Ametica and the UK had won the war, and they were more interested in rsaping German women and pillagingethan killing SS officers. In fact, they wanted to kill all German soldiers.

            Israel has career soldiers and is already accused of atrocities from all around the world on a daily basis. Your argument is specious.

          • Drakken

            I know quite a bit about the Waffen SS thank you very much Hank, as my Grandfather was one of them and was Skorzeny’s right hand man, planner and good friend. Those Russians you quote usually killed a Waffen SS trooper on the spot, so you’ll have to forgive them if they fought to survive. Yes the Waffen SS started out along party lines, but as they formed army groups, politics and ideology became last in line because fighting for the guy next to you was a matter of survival.

        • aspacia

          It did not subdue the Resistance.

          • Drakken

            Never saw the Maque slaughter another German Officer in the region after that did you? So yes, it worked.

          • aspacia

            By 1944, it is
            estimated that there were 100,000 members of the various resistance movements
            that existed in France. Just one year earlier, there were just 40,000 members..
            By the spring of 1944, there were 60 intelligence cells whose task was solely to
            collect intelligence as opposed to carrying out acts of sabotage. In the build
            up to D-Day, the intelligence they gathered was
            vital. In May 1944 alone, they sent 3,000 written reports to the Allies and 700
            wireless reports. Between April and May, the resistance destroyed 1,800 railway
            engines. When this figure is added to the 2,400 destroyed by Allied bombers,
            it is easy to understand why the Germans had such difficulty transporting
            equipment across France.

            Post-war analysis of the success of the
            resistance shows that the 150 most successful acts of sabotage against factories
            in France between 1943 and 1944,
            used just 3,000 lbs of explosives – the equivalent of the bomb load of one
            single Mosquito plane.

    • Hank Rearden

      Does the name Lidice ring a bell? Not the least of the things that the Germans will not live down in a thousand years.

      Collective punishment is one of the things explicitly prohibited by the Geneva Conventions.

      I’d like to be kind and say that this is a worthwhile idea, but it really isn’t and it doesn’t make any contribution to the problem at all.

      • Drakken

        Rather interesting since we signed on to that abortion of the Geneva Conventions that we haven’t won a war since. Lidice is a prime example of what works. I call it urban pacification.

        • Hank Rearden

          History calls it murder, a war crime, as they did at Nuremberg.

          • J.B.

            Americans carpet bombed German and Japanes cities in WWII and none of them wert tried at Nuremberg.

            Bombing an enemy city to elicit the release of kidnapped hostages is not collective punishment. Try not to be a trolltard.

          • Drakken

            Only the victors at Nuremburg called it that, history on the other hand says quite the opposite.

  • Baz

    I have never understood the maths when loads of people always seem to be returned to the murdering hoards for the return of one soldier of Israel, Why should they always seem to win over Israel, well thats how it looks from my position.

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      The US just did the same – trading traitor, turncoat bergdahl for 5 high valued talibanazis.

    • Daniel Greenfield

      It’s ridiculous, but people become convinced that releasing many terrorists for one hostage makes them morally superior.

      • Damaris Tighe

        I think the problem also is the massive, sentimental, unthinking, campaigns that are run nowadays to ‘get our boy back’. Because governments contain politicians, not statesmen, they can’t resist caving in. As you suggest, the general public just can’t take the pain any more. Maybe because we’re sentimental baby boomers?

        • Daniel Greenfield

          Also emotionally driven politics combined with a short attention span. People increasingly repeat talking points instead of actually understanding an issue

  • Damaris Tighe

    There is another aspect to the Gilad Shalit case which makes it slightly similar to the Bergdhal release. Shalit didn’t follow standard procedures to minimise the risk of kidnap when he was on patrol, which is why he was captured. The Israeli government was put under enormous pressure to negotiate his release by the usual high-profile campaign. The campaigners chose to ignore the liklihood that the exchange of terrorists for Shalit was bound to result in the death of a complete innocent in the future, which of course is what happened.

    • Daniel Greenfield

      Very good point

    • Lightbringer

      And then there’s Gilad’s father, who didn’t behave too well throughout poor Gilad’s captivity.

  • DontMessWithAmerica

    My question is, how can simple, obvious logic as you have detailed here have escaped the Israelis? It will be 38 years ago next month that Israel pulled off the most courageous military and humanitarian feat unmatched by any other nation – the rescue at Entebbe. And now they have regressed to self-defeating, illogical, downright suicidal acts. They sit and watch the Palestinians reward with cash their terrorists which can be construed as an act of war by itself. Perhaps, like the U.S. having lost its Spirit of ’76 as it sits and watches an impostor degrade the country without responding, Israel, too, has lost the spirit of Irgun and the Stern Gang without whom it would not exist today.

    • Daniel Greenfield

      Because people don’t run on logic. Politicians look for reasonable solutions that have an expert consensus behind them and that are politically pain-free.

      Those who dissent are known as ‘leaders’ and rarely get elected.

    • HermitLion

      Israel has become dependent, both materially and mentally, on the west, which denigrated it, abused it, and forced it to make humiliating concessions to its enemies.

      Israelis are frustrated that our hands are constantly being tied, but they are also constantly told that without the US we are doomed. It’s a widely held belief here.

      • Drakken

        It is a very simple equation, Israel is part and parcel of the west, if Israel or any other part of the west falls, we are next, it is that simple, so we either stick together, or fall separately to the Islamic savages.

        • Americana

          No, it’s not “that simple.” The Muslims have never successfully taken over the world. This Caliphate business is something against which we need to be always on our guard but to equate each and every political movement of Muslims to control territory w/movement toward a global Caliphate is a MAJOR tactical mistake. Why? Because it should be patently clear there is no possible alliance that will be created from today’s mashup of Muslim strategic aims. They are shattered among themselves and until there are signs they have reconciled, the West has little to fear on the Caliphate score though we still risk the occasional acts of jihadi terrorism.

          Not only is the Caliphate not something in the immediate future, but it’s tactically impossible for the West to commit enough troops to that kind of genocidal endeavor you believe is the only way to prevent the Caliphate. You may be a Marine and a contractor, Drakken, but none of the Israeli Major Generals and the former Mossad and Shin Bet directors agree w/you that this is the tack to take. There may be heinous flaws in the Islamic creed but deforming our own ethics to protect ourselves on the largest scale is not culturally acceptable. We may need to perform heinous acts at the individual level occasionally but to spread the belief we must devolve to the worst Muslim practices is not wise. How we counter these events will be a testament to our culture and the various religions whose fate is paired w/ours.

          • Jack Diamond

            All jihad is waged for the same Islamic reasons and with the same goals in mind. Jihadists will tell you whatever local goals they have, they are part of the global jihad being waged on behalf of the Ummah. Islamic law demands any lands once consecrated to Islam and then lost must be reclaimed. That’s why the Hamas Charter cries over the loss of Spain. It’s the basis for Muslims claiming all of Israel as a Muslim waqf (eternal religious endowment) based on the territorial conquest in the 7th century. Beyond that, Muhammad promised the Muslims Constantinople and Rome. After 800 years they seized Constantinople and they feel confident now Rome will be theirs (in the Third Islamic invasion of Europe, this one based on hijra -migration/colonization- rather than a marching army). Beyond that, Muhammad’s Allah declared the entire earth to be a mosque and Islam the only religion He recognizes or will accept. You will find absolute consensus on these matters from the highest Islamic authorities, regardless of the Muslim on Muslim cannibalism you call a mashup of strategic aims. Islam’s view of the kaffir world is quite consistent. Every Islamic movement to control territory is related to the obligation of Muslims, communally and individually, to implement Allah’s laws over the earth. That is what they believe. The Muslims did come close enough to “taking over the world” in history but what they were best at was in destroying civilizations. They were expert at that and they still are. The West has plenty to fear, “caliphate” or not, and a sensible containment policy based on understanding the incompatibility of Islam (and utter hostility of a resurgent Islam) to our civilization, would save (and would have saved) us from the consequences–and bloodshed–from not having those policies.

          • Drakken

            The former Mossad/Shin Bet directors and former Generals of Peace Now are being paid by leftist groups to push this peace at any price swill, and your gullible and ignorant to buy into what they are selling, every source you have used is a leftist, communist, pro-jihad group, so quit buying into the bloody propaganda. Your ignorance, gullibility, and naivety are very plain for all to see. I highly suggest you speak less and listen more, you just might learn something.
            As for Islamic jihad in western countries, I highly suggest you take yourself a nice trip to Europe this summer and see for yourself, you understand nothing of demographics, population trends and migration and how it affects the economics and makeup of a region. So quit drinking leftist cool aid and start learning something.

          • Americana

            Let’s hear it from Carmi Gillon’s mouth. Former head of the Shin Bet. As far as being paid by Leftist organizations, I doubt any of these men would do something they feel is contrary to the security of Israel. They’re far more likely to feel — as I do — that Israel’s future security rests on securing some sort of reasonable future for Palestinians. But, by all means, try to denigrate each and every one of these men and women who disagree w/you. You are a contractor, these folks were at the top of the profession.
            _____________________________________________________

            So contended Carmi Gillon — former director of the Shin Bet Israel internal security service, former Israeli ambassador to Denmark and now vice president for external relations of The Hebrew University of Jerusalem — during his visit to Milwaukee on Nov. 7.

            Speaking to an audience of about 150 at Congregation Emanu-El B’ne Jeshurun, Gillon acknowledged that “it is popular [in the Jewish community] to say we want to keep the holy places” in the territories Israel captured during the 1967 Six Day War — the region called the West Bank (of the Jordan River) or Judea and Samaria.

            These places include the sites traditionally known as the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron and Joseph’s Tomb in Nablus, among others.

            But “we can’t ignore” that this area “is not an empty land… that there are millions of [Palestinian Arabs] who live there for many generations,” Gillon said.

            Therefore, whether to have a two-state solution — a Jewish state of Israel and an Arab state of Palestine — “is not a question anymore,” Gillon said.

            In fact, most mainstream Israeli politicians, “left or right, except the extremists,” including all prime ministers since Yitzhak Rabin in the 1990s, have acknowledged that truth and have negotiated on the basis of the two-state solution, Gillon said.

            Three issues
            ___________

            Gillon said three issues need to be resolved within this solution:

            • Borders: “It is agreed by all” that the state of Palestine will occupy “about 97 percent” of the West Bank, and that some of the largest Jewish settlements — containing about 100,000 people — will become part of Israel in return for “an exchange of territories,” he said.

            • The “Right of Return”: The Palestine Liberation Organization and all other Palestinian anti-Israel organizations have been adamant in publicly demanding that Israel should allow the return of all the Palestinian Arabs who fled from Israel during the 1948 War of Independence and their descendants.

            Nevertheless, said Gillon, Palestinian leaders “know there is no way Israel will accept” this demand, as that would mean “the end of the Jewish state.”

            • Jerusalem: Gillon said that in effect the city is already divided by a road into east and west sections and that it is for the most part already effectively split into Jewish and Arab neighborhoods.

            Still, Jerusalem is “a big question” because it contains sites holy to Judaism, Islam and Christianity. “It is a religious matter” that must be determined by religious leaders of the three faiths, “maybe [including] the Pope himself,” Gillon said.

            Even so, “we need to find a way to live together” in Jerusalem, he said.

            Gillon said the role of the United States has been and should continue to be “an honest broker” between the Israelis and the Palestinians. He praised U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry for having recently appeared on both Israeli and Palestinian television stations and made demands for negotiation to both sides.

            Gillon also said the threat of Shi’ite Muslim Iran and its effort to obtain nuclear weapons may provide for the first time in Israel’s history “a common interest” between Israel and such predominantly Sunni Muslim countries as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and the Persian Gulf states.

            “This is an opportunity for us,” but “there is only one obstacle” to improved relations with these countries, and that is lack of a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Gillon said.

            Gillon said that Israelis today want to have “a normal country,” and “This is the best news I can bring you from Israel.” A normal country means one in which Israelis live in security and can invest their tax money in education and the country’s infrastructure instead of weapons, he said.

            In response to questions, Gillon said most of the some 400,000 Jewish settlers in the territories would not constitute a serious obstacle to the two-state solution.

            This is because some 150,000 live in Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem, which are already part of Israel; about 100,000 live in the larger settlements that will become part of Israel in the land swap; and about two-thirds of the remaining 150,000 are Israelis who couldn’t find housing within the pre-1967 borders, but will move back readily if housing is available, he said.

            The remaining 50,000 ideological settlers will protest, but most will do so “in a legal and legitimate way,” Gillon said. Only a minority of them might resort to violence, and “I believe they will be put in jail before they succeed.”

            Gillon also defended the right of American Jews to express their views of Israeli policies.

            He said he believed in “the vision of David Ben-Gurion” — Israel’s first prime minister — that “the citizens of Israel are all Jews all over the world. Every Jew has the right to say what he thinks as long as you support the existence of Israel.”

            Israelis, he said, have “a little more” such right because they serve in the Israeli army and pay taxes; but apart from that, “if you don’t have the right to speak out, who does?”

          • Drakken

            You repeat the same utter bullsh*t and drivel in the hopes that it is true, when it is anything but. Keep wishing upon those rainbows and unicorns, they just might magically appear and everyone sings kumbaya. Your silly, ignorant, naïve feelings are getting in the way of cold, harsh reality. Your living proof that you just can’t fix stupid, not even with duct tape.

          • Americana

            If I were you, Drakken, I’d direct your tirades at the Zionists outside Israel as well as the Zionist Israelis who think they can achieve the Balfour Declaration aim just by being pig-headed. Keeping the peace process derailed proves nothing other than the fact that Israel is adept at playing the game. Your silly, ignorant, grotesquely impractical genocidal solutions are getting in the way of a solution. It’s true, you can’t fix stupid even w/duct tape. But it could certainly quiet you down some.

          • Drakken

            You cannot make peace with Islamic savages that don’t want and never have wanted peace, so I would highly suggest you unf**k yourself. You out yourself as a Peace Now activist, and I have nothing but utter contempt for those of that organization. The only ones derailing peace is those goddamn muslim ragheads which you have empathy for.

          • Americana

            I’m not a member of any particular peace organization. I read everything from both sides. The fact I happen to agree w/the former Mossad and Shin Bet folks and the ex-military guys is simply because they make the most sense to me. They’re not so religious they’ve got any wild and cockamamie religiosity that’s influencing how much of the Balfour Declaration land they feel they’d insist on holding onto, they’re strategically prepared to make their case for their choice of borders for both states, and they’re RATIONAL on ALL COUNTS of the peace process. I’ll stake my vision of Israel’s future w/the guys who’ve held it together for Israel up until now, through several wars and much internal jihadist pressure. They’re calm under fire and their point of view is convincing to me.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “The fact I happen to agree w/the former Mossad and Shin Bet folks and the ex-military guys is simply because they make the most sense to me.”

            They have a relatively comprehensive but narrow view. It’s understandable that they place a lot of emphasis on what they see while ignoring what they can’t see.

          • Americana

            Oh, for pete’s sake. You’re saying the Mossad and the Shin Bet can’t see the jihadist terror structure? Sorry, no, they’re close enough to being correct that their opinion should hold sway over religious nutters and Zionists who are in it for religious reasons instead of strategic reasons.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Americana objectivefactsmatter • 7 hours ago: “Oh, for pete’s sake. You’re saying the Mossad and the Shin Bet can’t see the jihadist terror structure? Sorry, no, they’re close enough to being correct that their opinion should hold sway over religious nutters and Zionists who are in it for religious reasons instead of strategic reasons.”

            That’s not what I said at all. Their comprehensive view makes them feel that they understand everything in a global sense but in reality they have tunnel vision. It’s easy for neo-Marxist thinking to replace a broader understanding and think it just might be about “oppression” and material need. It’s understandable that this might happen after decades of intractable war.

            Anyone can fall in to that trap. You have to discern between what they know and what they feel about what they know.

          • Americana

            Now you’re calling the Shin Bet and the Mossad directors and the Israeli Major Generals NEO-MARXISTS???? Will wonders never cease!!! Every military guy or intelligence guy I’ve ever met has been either very right or middle of the road. Not a one, not a one, has EVER been a Marxist or a neo-Marxist (as if there’s really any difference between the two). Lord, some folks are willing to keep sliming others.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Americana objectivefactsmatter • 12 minutes ago: “Now you’re calling the Shin Bet and the Mossad directors and the Israeli Major Generals NEO-MARXISTS???? Will wonders never cease!!! ”

            And you’re a mindless dupe to use such a dramatic reaction to criticism of neo-Marxist paradigms.
            “Every military guy or intelligence guy I’ve ever met has been either very right or middle of the road. Not a one, not a one, has EVER been a Marxist or a neo-Marxist (as if there’s really any difference between the two)”

            As if you’d know.

            “Lord, some folks are willing to keep sliming others.”

            Criticism of neo-Marxist cultural hegemony must be attacked emotionally because you can’t win the fight rationally. What exactly do you think neo-Marxism is?

          • Americana

            How exactly do you see these men representing neo-Marxiism? This is nearly as stupid as the suggestion they’ve been paid off by Leftist organizations to state their own opinions but they’ve aligned their own opinions w/those who are paying them.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Americana objectivefactsmatter • 9 minutes ago: “How exactly do you see these men representing neo-Marxiism? ”

            I didn’t say they “represent” it. They accept neo-Marxist explanations, which are fairly comprehensive these days. It’s easy to do. Neo-Marxist explanations are not always wrong. The problem is that they’re not always right either even though they often suggest that there are no other explanations.

            “This is nearly as stupid as the suggestion they’ve been paid off by Leftist organizations to state their own opinions but they’ve aligned their own opinions w/those who are paying them.”

            You’re just running off your mouth and demonstrating more ignorance. Which is actually useful for us as we read your comments.

          • Americana

            Just as it’s equally instructive for me when you run your mouths…

          • objectivefactsmatter

            I wish I had some reason to feel confident that you were learning from these conversations.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “…and they’re RATIONAL on ALL COUNTS of the peace process.”

            That’s a nice summary of the problem because they’re enemy is not rational in Western terms. Their rationales come from a totalitarian, imperialistic religion.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            The Islamist “Peace Process” is the subjugation of all Infidels via Jihad.

            THAT will never happen.

            1.4 billion Islamists can never defeat 6 billion Infidels.

            The blood lust of Islamofascists strikes out against all poeple. The people will rise up and pacify Islamism. It is inevitable. You can try to delay the inevitable, but the defeat of Islamofascism is inevitable.

          • Jack Diamond

            You leave out the other half of this “negotiation.” The one that says “from the river to the sea.” The one that has turned down, what? 31 offers for their own “state.” There is no political solution to this matter (if there were it could be negotiated) because of the religious claim Islam makes on the Holy Land. Islam claims Israel as a waqf, first and foremost, because it was territory once conquered by Islam. That is Islamic law. It is worse, much worse, because they are Jews but the obligation would exist regardless. The problem can be contained, lived with, as long as Israel does not make suicidal concessions, but not “solved.”

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            The Muslim thieves have been defeated and the Jewish owners have regained the property.

            Islam is not a valid license to steal land and lives of innocents.

          • Americana

            They’ve turned down settlement offers because they’ve included deal breakers like not having East Jerusalem and so on. Ridiculous that might be, but it makes sense if you’re religious. I’d suggest they just take some ruins from another site and build a Disneyland look-alike mock-up but that probably wouldn’t satisfy them.

            That’s right. The problem can’t be solved so why not give it the best chance at minimizing the continuing fallout instead of further radicalizing the Palestinians by stealing more and more of their land?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Americana Jack Diamond • 12 minutes ago: “They’ve turned down settlement offers because they’ve included deal breakers like not having East Jerusalem and so on. Ridiculous that might be, but it makes sense if you’re religious.”
            No it does not make sense. Why do THEY need to be sovereigns of Jerusalem unless the fundamental reason for fighting is religious? Especially given that they don’t even have any legitimate state institutions.
            You are so delusional.

          • Americana

            Oh, I guess you’ll have fun explaining how it is then that the two states took over separate parts of Jerusalem because Israel knew the intention was to maintain Jerusalem as an Open International City and the Israelis weren’t going to tolerate that so the rush was on…

            http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch12.pdf

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Americana objectivefactsmatter • 11 minutes ago: “Oh, I guess you’ll have fun explaining how it is then that the two states took over separate parts of Jerusalem because Israel knew the intention was to maintain Jerusalem as an Open International City and the Israelis weren’t going to tolerate that so the rush was on…”

            I don’t care what Israel does on their own accord. The point is that the Fakestinians have no right to dictate terms.

          • Jack Diamond

            The problem can be contained by the Palestinians getting it in their heads that Israel cannot be defeated and destroyed by them and good old Inshallah fatalism setting back in. Talking about Palestinians being entitled to East Jerusalem– you mean like when the Arabs took the Old City in 1948 and destroyed the Jewish quarters? When they banned the Jews from it? When headstones from the Mount of Olives Jewish cemetery were used to build toilets? Arabs do pretty well in Israel, what would happen to a Jew who wandered into “Palestinian” territory? You see a moral equivalence? How long are you going to blame their hate and “radicalization” on Israel, as if Israel could solve it other than by vanishing?

            Why did Arafat go around reminding fellow Arabs about the Treaty of Hudaibiyah after he signed the Oslo Accords? Do you understand the significance? It means their treaties, their peace accords, their word is worthless because they are allowed to lie to the Infidel and break their truces when it is to their (the Muslims) advantage. That is doctrine. They cannot be trusted as negotiating partners. Finally, they have not created even the semblance of a “state” that any sane people would recognize or reward. They have created a culture of hate and upheld the “suicide killer” as the highest aspiration for their children. This is plunging to the bottom of the moral abyss. This war against Israel is being fought for the same reasons, the very same reasons, as the jihad against Thailand or India or across North Africa. The same reason ISIS claims the Levant (including Israel) for the Caliphate. The Jihad against Israel is the same Jihad being waged against the rest of us. Civilized people stand with Israel.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “Former head of the Shin Bet. As far as being paid by Leftist organizations, I doubt any of these men would do something they feel is contrary to the security of Israel. They’re far more likely to feel — as I do — that Israel’s future security rests on securing some sort of reasonable future for Palestinians.”

            Yes. And feelings can be wrong. They quite often are, especially when it comes to complicated conundrums.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “…“maybe [including] the Pope himself,” Gillon said.”

            The pope has no state business in Jerusalem except by invitation of the sovereign; Israel.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “Israelis, he said, have “a little more” such right because they serve in the Israeli army and pay taxes; but apart from that, “if you don’t have the right to speak out, who does?””

            Everyone has a right to speak. Certainly people that seek to rectify lies have as much right as anyone else. Therefore until we reach consensus on what the relevant facts are, expect heated debate.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Go back and fix PLO Oslo Accord violations. Then I’ll believe there’s a chance for a “Palestinian” state.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Dumbass,

            It can hurt us as they fail trying to build a caliphate just as it hurts Israel to have lunatics “building” a failed state next to them. The point is that they are not going to stop just because they feel we respect them, or they have enough wheat, or they’re pleased we’re doing something about our “carbon footprint.”

          • Americana

            Why would Palestinian terrorism not stop if they are given a state? Israeli terrorism stopped, didn’t it?

          • Jack Diamond

            Because it isn’t about having a state, unless you mean the Jewish state of Israel.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Americana objectivefactsmatter • 7 hours ago: “Why would Palestinian terrorism not stop if they are given a state? Israeli terrorism stopped, didn’t it?”

            That’s childlike thinking to ask such absurd questions. Why didn’t the Palestinian factions at the time accept the UN partition plan? Why didn’t the Palestinian factions work the Oslo Accords in good faith? Why don’t they try to build institutions to establish something like law and order to reign in the terrorists so they would not have built-in excuses for violating every damn agreement they’ve ever entered?

          • Drakken

            Because shortbus, the muslims will never stop wanting the rest of Israel proper, that is why Islamic jihad will never end until we finally kill it.

          • Americana

            The failed state you’re so worried about can’t be any more failed than what is currently in that geographic location. Filter that information through your brain cells.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Americana objectivefactsmatter • 5 hours ago: “The failed state you’re so worried about can’t be any more failed than what is currently in that geographic location. Filter that information through your brain cells.”

            Dumbass,

            We’re propping up a failed state that never existed and we’re doing it because we’ve been deceived over and over again. We’re continuing to fund a Trojan horse that is used against us. I can think of quite a few better options than that.

            Failed states need to go away for a start.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “Filter that information through your brain cells.”

            If only you followed your own advice before passing it out. Perhaps wasting resources on a failed state is not the best option when withdrawing and letting it die would serve so many other objectives so well.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          If we can’t protect our relationship with Israel and instead throw it away because of alien communist and Islamic propaganda, we’re finished as a civilization.

    • Lightbringer

      The rescue at Entebbe was a fairly different situation, since an Israeli firm had designed and built the airport at which the hostages were being held and the architects shared the plans with the military. Israel had some significant advantages there. But I would agree that if such a situation were to occur today, the Israelis would not do anything nearly as bold — or as successful.

      • Americana

        You don’t know as much about the Israelis as you think then…

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          Pot Kettle.

          Threats of a third intifada will turn into the reality of a Third Nakba.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          It’s also possible you missed the point.

  • zach jonez

    While the idea of overwhelming response is quite attractive, and ultimately it may work in ridding us of terrorism and/or an Arab population inside the land; we know that the worldwide community would use such actions to basically economically ostracize the nation of Israel.

    A good middle ground would be simply to annex more land and establishor expand settlements right next to areas like Gilo that are almost certainly going to be annexed by Israel in any final talks…..

    We already deal with flack over settlements and their natural expansion (Jews settling in Judenrein / Arab colonial lands). Why not get a better bang for our buck, and at the same time show the enemy that his provocations will only serve to add to his misery.

    • Hank Rearden

      And if there are negotiations going on now (which there shouldn’t be but there seem to be endless “negotiations”) ostentatiously adjourn them. The Israeli delegation walks into the next meeting, sits down for, say, a couple of minutes, the leader of the delegation says that it is impossible for negotiations to continue while the boys are not returned, and the entire delegation walks out en masse. If the venue is in Israel, lights, air conditioning are turned off and the rest rooms are already locked.

      AND, as you say, ACCELERATE the settlements without making any announcement. Just do it.

      As well as conduct a propaganda campaign. Have, say, Netanyahu hold a press conference and say, these are Islamic values – kidnapping boys coming home from school – we are fighting.

      • zach jonez

        Yes, I mean vis a vis the settlement…

        You can double the speed of construction, and then offer a freeze the next yr. As long as the aggregate amount of building is unchanged, who cares.

        The key thing is to keep building adjacent or close to settlements next to Israel proper….all of that is going to be annexed/swapped for Arab villages in the north eventually and everyone with a brain knows it.

  • Harry_the_Horrible

    You can’t beat the enemy by trading prisoners for kidnappees. That just encourages more kidnappings.
    You can’t win by negotiating. The Arabs lie and don’t keep their bargains.
    You can’t win by killing the terrorists. The Arabs are completely insensitive to casualties.
    Israel needs to go after the money. They need to seize and destroy the assets of Hamas and the PLO. They need to kill the people providing them money.
    Only by destroying the logistics behind the terrorists can they end terrorism.

    • Gee

      Yes we can win by killing terrorists. Dead people do not threaten us.

      • Harry_the_Horrible

        I’d like to believe that, too. But the numbers make that a lie. We’d run out ammo and the will to pull the trigger first.
        Always fight the enemy at his weakest point. Bodies are NOT the terrorist’s weak point.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          There’s lots of lead for ammo.

          The world is no where near “Peak Lead”.

    • Drakken

      That is why God invented lots of ammo and napalm, and that is the one thing I believe in to use liberally. No more muslims = no more problems.

      • Harry_the_Horrible

        1.5 billion.
        That is how many Moslems there are. That is a lot of ammo, etc.
        As I said, the terrorists have no lack of bodies willing go to their 72 virgins. It is one of their strong points.
        But money is bottle neck we can use to strangle them. FInd out where it coming from, and who is handling it, then cut it off with extreme prejudice.

        • Drakken

          If you give the muslims and their cities a very nice taste of many Cathages and you put your boot up their azzes, they will fall into line. Besides, ever see what an Arclight Strike does?

        • J.B.

          1.5 billion, my @$$.

  • mtnhikerdude

    Terrorism , the Palestinian contribution to the Planet.

  • mtnhikerdude

    Concessions , the D.C. Mantra !

  • Ban Liberals

    Daniel, while I hate cliches, Israel is “it’s own worst enemy!”

    As you correctly wrote, Israel by policy releases innumerable terrorists in trade for even a single soldier or citizen.

    And earlier this week we learned that liberals in the Israeli government (at least I certainly HOPE it was liberals!) provide televisions and other amenities for these same terrorists while incarcerated.

    THIS IS INSANITY. Just as insane as America’s liberals’ policies are. Or worse.

    Unless and until Israel stops this manifestation of stupidity, it will never beat, conquer or suppress Islamic jihad or the terror it foments.

    • Daniel Greenfield

      The insanity of the left is not limited to any any single country. It’s pervasive across the First World.

  • Hard Little Machine

    I prefer a response which takes human judgment out of the equation. Proportional response? Great. Fire a 155mm howitzer into a random Arab apartment bloc selected by a computer each and every time someone is kidnapped or killed or a rocket or mortar flies into Israel.

    • Drakken

      Naw, go big or go home, destroying villages is much more effective.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      Proportional response rhetoric is only appropriate for sports. It’s basically nonsense. That’s what the superpowers tell the client states in order to keep a bigger war from happening. But usually it’s nobody else’s business to tell one state how to win a war against another unless it’s already their business for one reason or another.

      I got your proportional response right here. Don’t blink.

      • SCREW SOCIALISM

        hamass needs to be decimated. hamass needs to see their headquarters, the family homes in rubble – and the heads of hamass decapitated.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      Yeah, the point of war is not to find out which faction has the best athletes.

  • Mladen_Andrijasevic

    The key to solving the problem is educating the Israeli public as to what Hamas believe in. I am convinced that less than 5 percent of Israelis have read the Hamas Charter and that less than 1 percent know where text in Article 7 of the Charter is taken from. So we have a paradox where the Czech President Milos Zeman understand better what is happening in the Middle East than most Israelis do.

    A watershed speech by Czech President Miloš Zeman
    http://www.madisdead.blogspot.co.il/2014/06/a-watershed-speech-by-czech-president.html

    How to educate the public? Perhaps this quiz might help?

    A mini 5 + 1 question quiz for Secretary Kerry
    http://www.madisdead.blogspot.co.il/2014/01/a-mini-5-1-question-quiz-for-secretary.html

  • HermitLion

    So clearly explained, it makes it very easy to understand what a mess we are in in Israel.
    It’s saddening to realize just how far terrorism has already advanced our enemies, especially considering how the average person never listens to such an analysis.

    • Daniel Greenfield

      A decaying culture is an easy target for predators

  • montana83

    Announce nothing publicly. Round up 10 or 20 Hamas leaders. 24 hour deadline for release of children or they will be executed. Start again. Any kidnapped children die and it’s open season on Hamas, done quietly.
    Deny everything publicly. The stuff will stop or quietly Israel tells Hamas that it will be totally destroyed by the IDF. Israel is an asymmetrical war with 30-50% of Israel’s population too left wing to defend themselves. Netanyahu has a chance to do something. The left gets elected and it’s over.

  • Demo P. Seal; PouponMarks

    Daniel, to defeat an enemy, you have to understand the particulars, idiosyncrasies, and internal dynamics of that enemy. Taking the high road when the other side’s motto is “whatever it takes”, and “the end justifies the means”, is a disaster. In the Cold War, the reptilian Comintern understood only one thing: destruction and pain.

    Israel should start with implementing the death penalty for terrorism. This is sanctioned in the Torah, Bible, and is a moral imperative. See Dennis Prager’s column on this subject. Secondly, for every Israeli kidnapped, five Palestinians must die. This is the only calculus they understand; anything else is weakness and invites even more aggression.

    You have to survive in order to have a high perch of a moral position that is abstract and overly idealistic. All Palestinians are not terrorists, but the leadership and many followers are nothing less than psychopaths, sociopaths, and genocidal maniacs. You would stand a better chance of stopping an Alpine avalanche that dissuading Israel’s enemies to act civilized, rational, and moral.

    • Daniel Greenfield

      Obviously the death penalty should be in use. We’re talking about acts of war in which the other side follows no laws on the treatment of prisoners.

      • Demo P. Seal; PouponMarks

        Would you agree that Israel, America, and other countries stumble to find their way in the absence and rejection of Holy Writs? In other words, has substitution for Divine or Divinely inspired laws and rules by man made idealistic and theoretic frameworks caused the majority of troubles of the West?

        • Daniel Greenfield

          Obviously in the absence of G-d, we remain blind.

    • Drakken

      There is a reason why everyone remembers Carthage, it is time to bring back that time honored tradition, because it works.

  • Habbgun

    I believe that the correlation of terrorism to warfare is in a sense wrong. I believe that it is closer to how a society views crime and I don’t think that it is an accident that the Left which believes criminal behavior is an opportunity that should not be let go to waste (meaning that the criminal is seen as a protestor against capitalism, etc) has used the same tactic with Islam.

    Terror isn’t just a strike at civilians. It is a strike at how much the government sees its citizens as one interest among many. Appeasement doesn’t come in a vacuum. There are plenty of interests including economic ones that see it as a preferable calculus. Poor vulnerable people never think appeasement is a great moral victory. They pay the price whether it is Islamic terror or fear of crime. To them it is just how forces out of their control react.

    Terror and crime lose when others see it as an opportunity. No one remembers who collaborated with Al Capone. They remember Elliot Ness. No one remembers Richard the Meant Well. They remember Richard the Lionhearted. You will know when we have such leaders when the Left loses all pretense at being a moderating force. When pushed they always side with the gangsters and the terrorists and lose elections during those times. Then they wait until the voters forget.

    The response to terror is simple. If the government abandons us. We abandon the government. If the government cedes to Islam it cedes to Islam’s opponents as well.

    Since appeasement creates winners and losers it must be enforced. The government is doing dirty work. It will either do it to the aggressor or those it sees as had enough and are now an internal threat. Islam will hate it when they see that Western governments are so weak that they can’t enforce appeasement. Islam creates the conditions of its own demise. The simple way to defeat terror is as an ultimatum to the government. The people are strong. You better be as well.

  • Hank Rearden

    Well…maybe. I certainly understand the point and I think that virtually all countries have an official policy of not negotiating with terrorists. I don’t know if that is the official Israel position, but we know they DO negotiate.

    I would make a couple of different points. Of course, one wants to avoid negotiating with terrorists. But, if and when the time comes that you DO negotiate, such as the Gilad Shalit situation, then the thing to do is to turn it into a spectacle.

    So far as I know, when Israel released the terrorists for Shalit, they were put on a bus, figuratively if not literally in the dark of night, and sent to the Palis.

    No.

    A BIG press conference. With each released terrorist treated individually. A big picture of him at the head of the auditorium. Then pictures of the scene of whatever crime he committed. Relatives of the dead in the front row, and the leader of the spectacle, which should probably be the Prime Minister, bringing them up on the stage with the bad guy standing right there, and them telling their story. Yes, it would go on for hours and hours if there are many people being released. But you take the time.

    Identify each one. And then say that this is the person that the PA is celebrating as a hero. Totally in violation of the Geneva Conventions. This is what we (Israel) are up against.

    We are doing it because of our JEWISH VALUES – don’t, for goodness’ sake, hide what you are doing! Be just as self-congratulatory as the facts support. Yes, toot your own horn. As Henry Kissinger would put it, it has the added value of actually being true!!

    “Our JEWISH VALUES are leading us to release this POS (or equivalent) because the Palis – Mahmoud Abbas – are demanding it. HE thinks this person – again pointing to the pics of the dead bodies – is a hero. That is Palestinian values vs. Jewish values. That is what you are seeing here.”

    Like that.

    MAKE THE CASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Drakken

      You want to avoid these types of hostage situations, you don’t take muslims prisoners, period. I never have and I never will.

  • aspacia

    Yes! Also Israel should execute all terrorists with blood on their hands.

  • Jeff Ludwig

    “Every nation, society and culture confronted with Islamic terrorism seeks ways to spare itself the pain. But the pain can only end when the terrorists are thoroughly defeated.” In these two sentences, Mr. Greenfield has created a bridge between our psychological reaction to terrorism and the “land on the other side” where we are more immune to the helplessness we experience in the face of terrorism.
    I had an office job once where a woman was hired to do certain work that overlapped with mine. She tried to harass me and my word processing assistant. I went to the president of the company to complain about this, and he called us into his office for a “discussion.” I laid my cards on the table. She had a job to do that had nothing to do with treating us like garbage. We thoroughly vetted the issues, and at the end of the vetting nothing was resolved. This of course made her feel good, and as the meeting drew to a close, she offered to shake hands with me. I refused her hand (this is considered pretty rude in the office world), and the president asked me, “why not?” I replied, “Nothing has been resolved.” Seems like a stalemate was reached? Right? Not really. Five days later, the woman disappeared from the office. No one could get in touch with her, and she was never seen or heard from again. While other variables may have been in play, I believe that my refusal to “shake hands” was related in a fundamental way to her departure. She understood after our conversation that my daily rejection of her would be unremitting.
    She was not a terrorist, but my uncompromising attitude definitely set the tone.
    While the comparison between this incident and negotiating with terrorists is a bit of a stretch, I believe it has some analogical power. Mr. Greenfield is tapping into an important dimension of the nature of conflict itself, namely, we have to grow in our capacity to endure pain if we are to overcome helplessness and fear. So, even though we may see that the Israelis have already endured more pain than any civilized society should be expected to bear, in light of their conflict with their neighboring countries, even greater firmness is needed, even more character, and even more determination in the face of the fiendish forces of terrorism that afflict that country.

    • lostlegends

      “the Israelis have already endured more pain than any civilized society should be expected to bear, . . .”. Really??!! Remarkable, spoken like a true intellectual, a parlour room sophist. Ever heard of Antietam? Cold Harbor? Frozen Chosin? Iwo Jima? They haven’t endured any pain that would/will lead to victory. The whole approach is to avoid victory. How wussy! I learned in high school and as an undergrad at UCB that the ability to splash pages of words about had little to do with real thinking. Thanks for the reminder.

      • Bklyn Farmer

        And pray tell us what is you experience concerning pain, a hangnail injury while typing out you term paper at UCB.

        • lostlegends

          A prayer is answered. Pain, pulling shrapnel out of my knee cap in the field. I used the end of a cartridge between my teeth after chewing thru a branch. Cranked the action to my rifle and ejected two cartridges, inserted between molars, chomp down, resume wiggling the fragments. Pain 2, tying up a flap of skin on my head with a bandana after a grenade fragment sliced it loose.

          • Bklyn Farmer

            I saw the same movie.

          • lostlegends

            No way. The screen play isn’t finished. Based on a true story from my adventures as a merc in SE Asia. “Operation Ivanhoe.”

          • Bklyn Farmer

            Not at all, it was the opening scene from “Attack of the Killer Tomatoes” staring Charlie Sheen.

      • J.B.

        All the battles you cited were fought by soldiers and not by American society.You are proof that the ability to crap out words has little to do with critical thinking. Exactly what I expect from a UCB grad. The author didn’t claim that Israeli society had endured mote pain than any other. He wrote that it had endured more than any civilized society should be expected to. For your sake, I hope you weren’t an English major.

  • Webb

    Mecca, Medina, Damascus, Tehran — they all need to be gone. Use cruise missiles to destroy all dams and power generating plants in the Muslim world. Keep them in the Stone Age and they won’t stray too far from where they’re born. Gaza? Thermobaric weapons test plot.

    • lostlegends

      Half a good thought. The Iranians also have cruise missiles. Ask them to send you one. Wonder what they’ll put on it.

      • Webb

        Whatever they can manufacture without electricity and running water while they squat outside their caves, you terrorist d*cksucker.

        • lostlegends

          You’re so persuasive. You misspelled a word. Can’t make it out. In combat, the enemy shoot back. Such brave feel good emotionalisms you make. Talking tough words are cheap. Why don’t you take some incoming fire and see what it’s like. Been there.

          • Webb

            Gee, sorry for the misspelling. I’m also sorry a sniper didn’t put one between your dick-sucking crossed eyes.

          • lostlegends

            He tried. I hunched up behind a small boulder. He bounced bullets off the rock until he tired of the game. Sorry. I didn’t get his name.

          • Webb

            Hunched up and crapped yerself. It was a blind old lady throwing stones.

          • lostlegends

            His windage was fine on his first shot, but his elevation was a bit high; right over my head. He was out of range so I could not engage with my rifle. I see this is not a public website. All the writers seem to Jewish and of the same mind and the commenters seem to be of the same mind. I broke a taboo by offering a different perspective. Jewish people seem to be intensely tribal. I have been treated better by Arabs and Orientals. No Arab ever talked to me like you folks here have. You have persuaded me to stop commenting here or reading the articles. I don’t belong here. Will skip book purchases, too. Over and out for this Gentile.

          • Webb

            Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Good riddance to bad rubbish, Jew hater.

      • Drakken

        Those inbred Persians fire a missile, their cities will burn.

      • J.B.

        Probably some douche.

  • lostlegends

    Easy to do. Carpet bomb the high income neighborhoods of Gaza. Level them. Jewish religious dogma controlling political dogma keeps this from happening. Has for years. Keeps the war going forever. Israeli leaders don’t want victory, so they can’t want peace. They want an endless terrorism, endless so the American cash keeps flowing to their pockets. Throw the money changers out of the temple if you want victory.

    • Daniel Greenfield

      You really don’t know anything about Israel.

      It’s the US that keeps Israel from bombing Gaza. Religious dogma in Israel is in favor of bombing. Political dogma isn’t.

      No Israelis want more terrorism.

      • lostlegends

        Cute. Blame Bush. Send the $10 billion a year back to obama. Become an adult. If you are a big enough religious hypocrite in Israel you don’t have to don a uniform. My teenage sons don’t wish to fight their war. A 1,000 to one prisoner exchange. What a recruiting center! Israeli prisons for pows are the best places to get reinforcements. What madness. Lord, what fools these mortals be.

        • Daniel Greenfield

          Your teenage sons aren’t fighting their war. Ask the Defense Contractors for the $10 billion.

          • lostlegends

            No, not yet, they’re too young for now. Point 2 – cute, pass the buck again. I note you ducked my other points. Cool.

          • Daniel Greenfield

            You have no points.

            And the US has never fought Israel’s wars.

  • RatedBestComment

    What Israel should of done instead was say if you do not return our soldier we will find him and not limit your dead body count.

    You effectively control that… heh, heh, heh….

  • Maubi

    I say just nuke them all period, no more problems. They deserve nothing less.

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      I wish for Fascist Iran what it wished for America and Israel.

      DEATH to Fascist Iran!

      HANG the ayatollahs!

      LONG LIVE PERSIA!

      • American Patriot

        Better yet, send the Ayatollahs and their cronies to Gitmo.

        • Drakken

          Better to send them to the devil(allah).

  • Elliott

    Unfortunately, we are give only one side of the coin, The terrorists win a public relations’ battle when it engages negotiations because it suffers no cost. Inhumane intransigence is the label placed on anti-terrorists for refusal to negotiate and there is no effort to deny that claim. The refusal to negotiate is only half the necessary strategy. A demand of preliminary “good faith” by an initial concession to renounce terror before negotiations begin should be required on the basis that without that showing of “good faith” resolving the present issue only encourages repetition and endangers future victims. Refusal to renounce terror reverses the claim of inhumanity and gives legitimacy to refusing to negotiate. Secondly, the cost for terror should be grave. That lesson was learned by Hezbollah in Lebanon and is now being experienced by Hamas and West Bank Palestinians. There is little question that future kidnappings will result is far more costly damage to terror infrastructure than any benefit from the release of prisoners who are now suffering recapture in far greater numbers than those kidnapped and who now face indefinite custody – unlike the recovery of the kidnapped victims.

  • Texas Patriot

    DG: Israel Must Defeat the Tactics of Terrorists

    Daniel, this is your wimpiest article yet, and I’m surprised at you. You don’t defeat terrorism by fighting the tactics of terror. You defeat terror by going to the source of terror. As long as the Israeli government continues to permit committed Islamists to remain in the midst of the Israeli people, Israeli citizens will continue to experience terror attacks. Nobody ever won a war by defeating tactics. The only way to win a war is to defeat the enemy in their mind. The nation of Israel was originally created by God to be his Chosen People, and to be a beacon of hope and freedom for all the people of the earth, especially the enemies of God. The modern state of Israel must now become an embodiment of that hope.

  • Drakken

    If they kill one of yours, you kill their entire tribe, war is messy, dirty, nasty, bloody business. So if you don’t have the stomach to do what is necessary, stay out of the way and keep your mouth shut so others can do what must be done.

    • Americana

      I’d curb your enthusiasm for blood feuds and attempt a peace settlement first before going full out in your choice of direction. You’re quite the advocate for bloodshed yet look what it’s achieved elsewhere in the the Middle East.

      • Drakken

        How many times do you need to be told that there will not be peace with these goddamn savages? Sorry but, because you want to believe in peace, doesn’t make it so. You ignore history and current events because it doesn’t play into your naïve worldview. One way or another this ends with a lot of bloodshed and it is too terrible for your little liberal mind to wrap around.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          I wish Americana would go to Syria and try her hand at a Peace Process between Assad and ISIS, Sunni/Shiite – or die trying.

      • J.B.

        Islam is forbidden to make peace with the infidels. You know that so stop lying, trolltard.

        • Webb

          Mericunta is far too stupid to understand that, and will obliviously troll onward and downward for the rest of its miserable life.

          • Americana

            You are simply disgusting… What a webb you choose to weave. So admirable!

      • SCREW SOCIALISM

        You can’t make peace with islamofascists. See Syria.

        They need to be pacified one way or another.

  • J.B.

    The islamopithecines have been at war with humanity for 1400 years. No provocation needed, trolltard. They will be the agressors as long as islam is allowed to live. Stop making excuses for them by blaming the victims.

  • SCREW SOCIALISM

    You just made the case for the obliteration of mecca.

  • Mark Krikorian

    God’s sending Israel a message that they have to accept Jesus as their savior before they can vanquish the terrorists.

  • lostlegends

    For Mr. Greenfield – once upon time I watched the USA shoot down Iragi misslies with Patriot batteries in Israel. Example of USA fighting Israel’s war. You are refuted. Case of huge timely deliveries of war material to Israel to forestall being over run. Case of USS Liberty example of biting the hand that feeds. You strike me as defensive and having the personality of a 2 x 4. Learn to market your views, a little salesmanship goes a long way. My sons will not fight your war.

    • Webb

      Old dicklick the gentile. You weren’t gone for very long. Your word is worthless. You have no honor. Don’t forget to buy a book and some trinkets. Over and out for your homoboy sons, too?

    • ygalg

      our war? lol we were the ones who drag in, not the way around. Kuwait was the issue not israel.