UK Historian: Only Solution to Islamic Beheading is End to Koranic Literalism

quran_gun

This is the usual liberal prescription for any theology, but in this case it’s actually relevant.

Tom Holland, a British writer and historian, author of In the Shadow of the Sword, makes the case that denying the Islamic State’s links to Islamic violence is impossible.

How best to establish, for instance, that the actions of jihadis in beheading their foes are indeed contrary to Islam? Fighters for the Islamic State might well point out that the Qur’an describes angels decapitating unbelievers with the aim of spreading terror; that the first Muslims are described as harvesting heads on the battlefield of Badr; that Muhammad himself is said to have owned a sword that can be translated as ‘Cleaver of Vertebrae’. It is not enough, within such a context, merely to insist that Islam is a religion of peace, and leave it at that.

Holland ventures into some of the same territory as Robert Spencer.

“Qur’anic studies, as a field of academic research, appears today to be in a state of disarray.” Such is the frank admission of Fred Donner, Professor of Near Eastern History at Chicago. “Those of us who study Islam’s origins,” he has confessed, “have to admit collectively that we simply do not know some very basic things about the Qur’an – things so basic that the knowledge of them is usually taken for granted by scholars dealing with other texts.” Its place of origin, its original form, its initial audience – all are mysteries. That being so, it is certainly no longer possible to presume that there is anything remotely self-evident about the birth of Islam. Indeed, it is hard to think of any other field of history so currently riven by disagreement.

In time, this inexorable process of historicisation is bound to have an impact upon the literalism with which many Muslims today are tempted to interpret their scriptures. When the evidence for what the historical Muhammad said and did is so patchy, and when the traditional explanations of how the Qur’an emerged are so contested, it becomes increasingly difficult to insist that the inheritance of Islamic scripture is not thoroughly contingent. At the moment, the notion that Muslim beliefs are as historically conditioned as any other ideology inherited from the past is seen by most Muslims as highly threatening; but in the long run this will surely change.

Recognising that the stories told about Muhammad are fictions bred of a particular context and period, and that the potential interpretations of the Qur’an need not necessarily be circumscribed by traditional exegesis, should facilitate the emergence, over the course of the next century, of a clearly Western form of Islam. It is one, I suspect and very much hope, in which there will no longer be a place for ritual beheading.

Holland hopes. He also says that “this will surely change”. That’s rather optimistic considering that there isn’t much in the way of Islam without the Koran and the stories based around it and the laws based around that.

As I wrote in Moderate Islam is Our New Religion, the only worshipers of moderate Islam are liberals because it only exists in their minds.

There is no moderate Islam in the mosques or in Mecca. You won’t find it in the Koran or the Hadiths. If you want to find moderate Islam, browse the newspaper editorials after a terrorist attack or take a course on Islamic religion taught by a Unitarian Sociologist wearing fake native jewelry.

The true moderate Muslims are secular liberals of loosely Christian and Jewish persuasion who have invented and believe in a moderate Islam that doesn’t exist outside of their own heads. This secular Islam, which values all life, is dedicated to social justice and universal tolerance, is a counterpart of their own bastardized religions. And they are too afraid to wake up and realize that it doesn’t exist.

Holland has gone further by recognizing that while it does not exist, it does need to come into being.

This would be the Unitarian Islam. A religion that would use some sanitized stories about Mohammed, keep the calls for charity without mentioning the Jihad, eliminate the whole history of the conquests of Islam, and accentuate present day good deeds.

It would be an Islamic counterpart to liberalized forms of Christianity and Judaism.

There are some Muslims who actually practice something like this, but they are a tiny minority and hardly theologically influential. What Holland is proposing is completely unrealistic because not only are non-Muslim variants of such faiths weakening and losing members, but they are also demographically losing out to Islam.

Holland would like to see a form of Islam become dominant that is based on forms of Christianity/Judaism that are themselves unable to compete with Islam.

The flaw in this plan is obvious.

Holland did some interesting work in the Shadow of the Sword. He ought to know why that kind of Islam can’t exist.

  • De Doc

    Here’s a stunning bit for those who don’t know. Without the Hadith (Sayings of Muhammad) and Sira (Biography of Muhammad) the Quran is incomprehensible and simply has no context. There is a reason why so many non-Muslims quickly become frustrated reading the Quran, because of this opacity. The stories about Muhammad arose long after his supposed time and were fabricated in part to explain some of the oddities in the Quran and of course embellish the legend of Islam’s prophet.

    The Quran’s origins have been studied critically for over 150 years now, and continues today, but most of those engaged in serious scholarly examination of this religious text are written off as closeted Islamophobes, no matter how rational and reasonable their approach. Holland found out when one touches on these subjects with his own book and related documentary, both of which were protested by the usual cast in Islam apologetics industry. Even among the lunatic left, where it is chic to be an athiest and critical scholarship of religion is seized upon as the only way to study it, application of the historical critical method for Islam is rejected, because of PC thinking run amok.

    • Softly Bob

      I’m not sure if the Hadith or Sira were fabricated at all. They seem to be very honest accounts of Mohammed – warts and all. They are hardly flattering to him as they expose the negative qualities of his character. I tend to believe that the Hadith were genuine quotations from Mohammed given by eye-witnesses who knew him.
      Whether they are fabrications or not however, is irrelevant. As you correctly point out they are necessary to have full understanding of the Q’uran. Without the Hadith or the Sira, Islam is incomplete and it is almost impossible to create any religious jurisprudence from it. In fact most of the tenets of Sharia law are derived from the Hadith and not the Q’uran.

      • De Doc

        Well stated. Hilarity often ensues reading the Hadithic literature as this gem shows:

        It was narrated that ‘Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.” (Hasan). Ibn Majah 3:9:1944

        This one is used by Islamic religious leaders to advocate stoning for adultery (only lashing is prescribed in the Quran) and to argue for the bizarrely silly practice of a woman breastfeeding a non-related male to establish a benign relationship for day to day interaction. The last one was argued by Egyptian and Saudi imams very recently.

      • http://ruleofreason.blogspot.com/ Edward Cline

        Islamic scribes and theologians had about 1,400 years to fabricate the Koran, Hadith and Sira according to the exigencies of the moment. They were nothing if not busy emending, correcting, adding, deleting and revising the texts. The alternative is to believe that on Mohammad’s death in 632, the Koran has handed whole to his successor as Allah dictated it. But a number of new critiques of Islam’s origins say that even Mohammad’s scribes made grammatical and contextual corrections to what the “prophet” was claiming Allah thru Gabriel told him.

      • Uzoozy

        Softly Bob I agree with you 100 percent. Bible is a violent book, teaching of rape, incest, murder etc is common place, Look at the bible quoted below.

        I see so many religionists rant and rave about how Atheists are “not tolerant of believers and have no respect for their faith”. To non believers this claim is absurd. For intolerance of various religions is the foundation of Judaism, Christianity, Muslim and many other orthodox communities. Matter of fact, the Bible and Pentateuch commands religious intolerance in MANY verses, even to the point of KILLING people for their beliefs. Here then, are a few choice verses that show just how intolerant these religionists are of other believers and nonbelievers. We shall start with the two verses that helped to inflict one of the biggest mass murders in history, the Inquisition.

        Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. Leviticus 20:27

        “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18

        Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

        You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

        Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

        Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

        Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

        Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

        Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

        Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

        Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

        • Softly Bob

          You’re comparing apples to oranges. The commands in the Q’uran apply to all Muslims for all time. The Bible is different.
          Let’s examine each passage you have given:

          Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. Leviticus 20:27

          “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18

          You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

          Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

          Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

          Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

          Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

          Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

          These are Old Testament commands and were part of Jewish. They do not and have never applied to Christians. Jewish law was not made for Gentiles.

          Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be
          destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah.
          Mark 6:11

          Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

          These are from the New Testament. They are not commanding Christians to do anything. They are merely stating what God will do. If you don’t believe in God then it probably won’t worry you anyway.

          • Uzoozy

            The passages are in the Bible, you can make it what ever you want. Very obvious for Christians like you.
            This world is not Christian world , has the best religion in the world.
            Believe in God and only God for your salvation.
            Man god does not fly.
            Quran has just one line, and when its taken out of context it sound awful. Cherry picking creates hate.
            I can take pages from Bible out of context and make it the worst reading possible.
            To you your religion to me mine, do not demean me and you will be blessed.
            Shalom

          • ObamaYoMoma

            Quran has just one line, and when its taken out of context it sound awful. Cherry picking creates hate.

            Who is cherry picking moonbat? The truth is Islam is not even a religion. Instead, it’s a very rabid and draconian form of totalitarianism that seeks to make itself and its adherents supreme.

            As a matter of fact, per the Doctrine of Abrogation that is universally accepted throughout Islamic totalitarian society, all the earlier issued peaceful verses of the Koran and the same verses of the Koran that once made Islam a religion have all been abrogated, that is superseded and replaced, by the infamous sword verses of the Koran they conflict with and that were some of the very last verses of the Koran issued by Muhammad shortly before his death.

            Indeed, because the earlier issued peaceful verses of the Koran and the same ones that once made Islam a religion are no longer applicable because they have all been abrogated by the latter issued infamous sword verses of the Koran that command ALL MULSIMS to wage jihad in the cause of Allah against ALL INFIDELS until such time as Islam and its followers have been made supreme throughout the world, then that means that Islam is not a so-called religion, but a very rabid and draconian form of totalitarianism instead that is masquerading as being a religion to dupe gullible useful idiot moonbats exactly like you.

            Not to mention that only unhinged moonbats attempt to defend Islam by attacking Christianity and Christians like bigots. You obviously also don’t have the first clue about Christianity, so you are only making a fool out yourself anyway. Meanwhile, apparently you haven’t noticed, but there are absolutely no Christians waging holy war against all infidels the same way all Muslims are doing today. So seek mental help you mentally deficient loon!

          • Uzoozy

            Think what you want , correct Islamic values lead the way for 1.8 billion Muslims and growing by leaps and bounds, there must be something there which many are missing.

          • Zaba

            1.2 billion….and shrinking.
            The West is catching on, realizing that 1400 bloody years of islam has given us 270 million dead humans, for starters.

            thereligionofpeacecom

          • Uzoozy

            It was the Hitler’s, Mussolini’s and the Maos have killed most people not Islam at all, Islam has been spread by the WORD.
            Plus Tito, Franco, Caligula, Tibirus .
            Take a break from you hatred

          • Softly Bob

            Do you or do you not understand the difference between commands and statements? It’s not a matter of making what you want of it.
            Q’uran is full of hateful commands. THIS IS NOT CHERRY-PICKING IT IS FACT.
            You can either read or you can’t! You obviously can’t read.

          • Uzoozy

            Think what you want Christians only follow their religion as convenient to them.
            That is why it is reducing numbers everyday, churches are closing and becoming mosques. Do you get the drift.

          • Softly Bob

            As we approach the End Times Satan is worker harder than ever because he knows he doesn’t have much time before God defeats him.
            So it’s obvious that mosques are growing in number because this is Satan’s work. The Bible predicted that things like this would happen.
            I expect mosques to increase in number and they will continue to increase in number until Jesus comes and destroys all evil including Islam.
            Your comment has confirmed exactly what I’ve believe.
            This was written in the Bible over 500 years before Mohammed was even born.

          • Uzoozy

            Christ will come back after the day of judgment to tell Christians that he did not come back except to tell them that he JC did not ask that they pray to him.
            God is the being who determines the future and Bible is not the correct doctrine to believe, full of errors and contradictions and not to be relied upon the man made up book.
            bible is an ongoing process latest addition of KJV has taken out the word begotten as a contradiction .
            Islam was practiced by all the prophets as they all prayed to one God.
            JC prayed to God when he fell on his face.
            Get out of the delusion

          • Zaba

            We need to get acting before Jesus arrives.
            islam is the problem.

          • Keith

            Tell me if the Bible is so violent and so easy to misuse to create commands to kill non Christians why is it that there are not large groups of Fundamental Christians, like the Islamic State, going round giving non Christians the option of becoming Christian, pay a tax to live in a Christian state or to accept death?
            Even more so as the Jews don’t have the New Testament to counter what is in the Torah, why aren’t Jews doing exactly what the Muslims are doing?
            It really doesn’t matter what the Bible and Torah say about the past it is what those religions are teaching now that matters. It is the same for Islam, if the Quran taught that in the past this that and the other was done but it now taught that we should all live together in peace and harmony it would not be a problem. The problem arises as the Quran is still teaching that Muslims must kill the infidel and that the only religion is Islam on pain of death. Ask anyone from the refugees in Syria and Iraq.

          • Uzoozy

            This IS thing is totally out of whack and out of line with the teaching of Islam, why it started when it will end only God knows that.
            Religion is a very personnel thing you cannot covert the mind unless you want to.
            All religions teach the same thing, but fanatics make it to what they want to do.
            Life sucks in many ways, however IS does not need to add to the misery of the world.
            Poor Iraqi , Syrian and other refugees are paying a tremendous price in terms of misery and lack of food and shelter. Soon it will be winter when he misery will increase, IS should look after these people now.
            I pray that the poor people of those effected countries are able to go back home(if still there) and lead a normal life.
            By the way infidels are people other than Christians and Jews and Sabians.
            Shalom

          • Keith

            I take it that you can show theologically where IS have misunderstood the Quran. After all the new Caliph does have a Phd in Islamic studies from the Islamic university in Cairo so I would think that he knows a bit more than you do. Of course I would love to see all the western lefty apologists, like Ben Aflek, and the Muslims who say that what IS is doing is wrong, go out and discuss this with the Caliph, showing him where he is wrong. Somehow I don’t think the discussion would last long.

          • Uzoozy

            These people are not Muslims period, they should be treated as militants. An irrational mind is difficult to correct. It however has nothing to do with Islam other than the name, the name could be army of Christ, or the army of jerks.
            The world needs peace at any cost and IS does not help at all with their bigoted views and actions.

          • Keith

            I agree that the world needs peace but what do you mean by any cost. IS and people like Anjem Choudhury state that peace will come once Islam rules the world non muslims may not like it but it will be good for them. Well that would be peace at any cost but not acceptable to over half the worlds population.

            You say that people like IS and Anjem Choudhury are not Muslims but they will say the same about you, they will also be able to quote passages from the Quran backing up their position and showing where they believe you are incorrect.

            Yes their views and actions are bigoted but they are doing all these things in the belief that it is good for Islam and until Muslims like you start showing them what they are misunderstanding in the Quran nothing will change. As I said earlier you need to be able to show them theologically by quoting passages from the Quran to show them they are wrong.

            I have heard quite a few people claim that they are not muslims and they are misunderstanding Islam but no one seems to quote anything from the Quran to counter the verses quoted by those you claim are not Muslims.

          • Uzoozy

            Its very difficult to make clear what is wrong with IS and Anjem. Because the world quotes cherry picked verses to justify their actions.
            My humble belief is as follows:
            Islam does not allow any single person to be killed, be Jews or Christians.
            Islam does not allow forced conversion it is prohibited.
            There is a verse in the Quran which says ” There is only Islam in the eyes of God” this is for the believers .
            Many people have tried before, but they are stubborn mules.
            Anjem lives in a multi pound house provided by Exchequer but he is not thankful and keep shut.
            Sharia is only for Muslim followers of Islam, its a personel law for Muslims to follow wherever they go.

          • liz

            It’s interesting that you can so clearly see the contradictions in the Bible (very well done list, by the way), yet you refuse to recognize or acknowledge the blatant contradictions in the Koran!
            If you expect Christians and Jews to recognize their own “holy book” as flawed, and therefore false (as they rightly should), because of these contradictions, then you should do the same with your own. Why won’t you address the specific contradictions found in the Koran, mentioned by others here?
            Because, like all religious believers, you’re eager to see the faults of the religions others, but are content to remain blind to you’re own. You cant even see that this hypocrisy invalidates your entire argument.

          • Uzoozy

            Thanks for your post.
            Quran is the word of God came to the Holy prophet thru Angel Gabriel , God makes no errors.
            Quran was revealed during a period of 23 years, the revelations are varied and many commands were for that specific time. There are many non Islamic theories but the main teaching is there is only ONE God, pray to Him, like all the previous prophets Moses, Abraham, Solomon, Noah and Jesus.
            Jesus was a messenger of God but not God himself.
            God does not need helpers , He says BE and it is.

          • liz

            You prove my point here.
            You say, “the revelations are varied and many commands were for that specific time”. That’s exactly the excuse that Christians use to explain away the contradicting commands in the Bible, which you yourself point out in your argument against them.
            You really can’t have it both ways. If this excuse is invalid for them, it should be equally invalid for you.
            If Christians should renounce Christianity because of all the violence commanded by God in the Bible and practiced by believers in ancient times, how much more should Muslims renounce Islam for all the violence commanded by Allah and practiced by Muslims not only in ancient times, but even to this day?

          • Uzoozy

            Allah does not promote violence, He asks people to defend themselves.
            Your religious belief is so convoluted that its beyond satan to correct.
            Islam promotes only peace, like Christians some have gone wayward, 1.8 billion is a big number to brush all off the people at one time.
            May Allah show you the correct way.
            Shalom

          • liz

            Allah commands you to cut off the heads of infidels wherever you find them, and you call that asking people to defend themselves? He says the rocks will cry out, telling you “there’s a Jew behind me, kill him!” – and you call that not promoting violence?? I’d have to say THAT is convoluted.
            My religious belief is not convoluted at all, since I’m an atheist, and enjoy the benefit of being fully rational. I don’t have to twist myself into ridiculous, convoluted pretzels trying to defend the irrational blather of a primitive barbarian religion, as you do.

          • Uzoozy

            Live in LaLA land till then.

          • liz

            Till when? Till Islam rules the world and everything is perfect? You’re the one in lalaland, and your denial of reality is plain to see.

          • Uzoozy

            Its mentioned in the Quran that God does not want the while world to become Muslims.
            He dictated that if He wanted He could make the whole world Muslim, but He does not it to be that way.
            He wants all religions to live in peace and harmony, praising Him alone. All religions belong to God.
            So its said,
            Muslims are not perfect and no one claims Muslims to be perfect they are just the same all else.
            If you do good you are blessed if not you go Lala land, its going to be very hot there, sorry no air conditioners allowed.
            Shalom

          • Uzoozy

            This is the barbaric part of another religion does not sound the same.

            Biblical/Pentateuch Intolerance:

            I see so many religionists rant and rave about how Atheists are “not tolerant of believers and have no respect for their faith”. To non believers this claim is absurd. For intolerance of various religions is the foundation of Judaism, Christianity, Muslim and many other orthodox communities. Matter of fact, the Bible and Pentateuch commands religious intolerance in MANY verses, even to the point of KILLING people for their beliefs. Here then, are a few choice verses that show just how intolerant these religionists are of other believers and nonbelievers. We shall start with the two verses that helped to inflict one of the biggest mass murders in history, the Inquisition.

            Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. Leviticus 20:27

            “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18

            Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

            You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

            Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

            Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

            Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

            Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

            Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

            Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

            Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

            Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:

            Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

            Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

            Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

            Judge other religions for not following Christ:

            Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

            Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

            The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

            Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

            False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

            Here are my two personal favorites:

            Everyone will have to worship Jesus — whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

            A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33

          • Uzoozy

            God drowns the whole earth.
            In Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children, fetuses, and perhaps unicorns. Only a single family survives. In Matthew 24:37-42, gentle Jesus approves of this genocide and plans to repeat it when he returns.

            2. God kills half a million people.
            In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites.

            3. God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn.
            In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.

            4. God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them.
            In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.

            5. Genocide after genocide after genocide.
            In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.” In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan. In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites – men, women, children, infants, and their cattle – for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier.

            6. God kills 50,000 people for curiosity.
            In 1 Samuel 6:19, God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant. (Newer cosmetic translations count only 70 deaths, but their text notes admit that the best and earliest manuscripts put the number at 50,070.)

            7. 3,000 Israelites killed for inventing a god.
            In Exodus 32, Moses has climbed Mount Sinai to get the Ten Commandments. The Israelites are bored, so they invent a golden calf god. Moses comes back and God commands him: “Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.” About 3,000 people died.

            8. The Amorites destroyed by sword and by God’s rocks.
            In Joshua 10:10-11, God helps the Israelites slaughter the Amorites by sword, then finishes them off with rocks from the sky.

            9. God burns two cities to death.
            In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot’s wife for looking back at her burning home.

            10. God has 42 children mauled by bears.
            In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them. (Newer cosmetic translations say the bears “maul” the children, but the original Hebrew, baqa, means “to tear apart.”)

            11. A tribe slaughtered and their virgins raped for not showing up at roll call.
            In Judges 21:1-23, a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves.

            12. 3,000 crushed to death.
            In Judges 16:27-30, God gives Samson strength to bring down a building to crush 3,000 members of a rival tribe.

            13. A concubine raped and dismembered.
            In Judges 19:22-29, a mob demands to rape a godly master’s guest. The master offers his daughter and a concubine to them instead. They take the concubine and gang-rape her all night. The master finds her on his doorstep in the morning, cuts her into 12 pieces, and ships the pieces around the country.

            14. Child sacrifice.
            In Judges 11:30-39, Jephthah burns his daughter alive as a sacrificial offering for God’s favor in killing the Ammonites.

            15. God helps Samson kill 30 men because he lost a bet.
            In Judges 14:11-19, Samson loses a bet for 30 sets of clothes. The spirit of God comes upon him and he kills 30 men to steal their clothes and pay off the debt.

            16. God demands you kill your wife and children for worshiping other gods.
            In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend if they worship other gods.

            17. God incinerates 51 men to make a point.
            In 2 Kings 1:9-10, Elijah gets God to burn 51 men with fire from heaven to prove he is God.

            18. God kills a man for not impregnating his brother’s widow.
            In Genesis 38:9-10, God kills a man for refusing to impregnate his brother’s widow.

            19. God threatens forced cannibalism.
            In Leviticus 26:27-29 and Jeremiah 19:9, God threatens to punish the Israelites by making them eat their own children.

            20. The coming slaughter.
            According to Revelation 9:7-19, God’s got more evil coming. God will make horse-like locusts with human heads and scorpion tails, who torture people for 5 months. Then some angels will kill a third of the earth’s population. If he came today, that would be 2 billion people.

            Now, Christians have spent thousands of years coming up with excuses for a loving god that would allow or create such evil. In fact, they’ve come up with 12 basic responses, which are the subject of The Tale of the Twelve Officers.

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            { 64 comments… read them below or add one }

            Lorkas May 5, 2009 at 9:57 am 2. God kills half a million people.
            In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites.

            Were there even 500,000 people in Israel at this time? This would be the bloodiest battle that took place before the 20th Century. The only American war that had this many casualties was the Civil War.

            Lorkas(Quote)lukeprog May 5, 2009 at 6:12 pm That’s another reason why it’s ridiculous, yes.

            lukeprog(Quote)dutchess May 19, 2009 at 12:03 pm Christians will argue that this was the OT god and that he’s different in the NT. His wrath was quenched with Jesus’ sacrifice. How do you counter?

            dutchess(Quote)Hokie June 1, 2009 at 3:30 am I like to say that saying that was the OT “g”od is like saying he changed his mind from then to the NT. So…if he changed his mind that would be admitting he was wrong originally. If he was wrong, then he is not “g”od.

            - Take that religion!

            Hokie(Quote)Reginald Selkirk June 12, 2009 at 6:03 am 18. God kills a man for not impregnating his brother’s wife.

            It would only be fair to mention that his brother was dead, so that it was his brother’s widow whom he refused to impregnate.

            Reginald Selkirk(Quote)Reginald Selkirk June 12, 2009 at 6:10 am dutchess: Christians will argue that this was the OT god and that he’s different in the NT. His wrath was quenched with Jesus’ sacrifice. How do you counter?

            1) A Biblical counter:

            Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

            2) A philosophical counter: A claim that God’s “wrath was quenched” goes against arguments that God is unchanging and/or outside of time.

            3) A philosophical omni counter: If God is omniscient, could he create a rock so large that His hitting His head on it could explain the change of personality He underwent between the OT and the NT?

            Reginald Selkirk(Quote)Reginald Selkirk June 12, 2009 at 6:11 am Oops, I meant omnipotent, not omniscient.

            Reginald Selkirk(Quote)lukeprog June 12, 2009 at 6:44 am Reginald: Oops, fixed.

            lukeprog(Quote)Apollo June 12, 2009 at 7:55 am I always find the section where God goes crazy after David takes a census and kills 70,000 folks one of the prime examples of God’s ability to be incredibly immoral. Interestingly enough, David is given a choice of the form of punishment. It could come from God or his enemies. He chooses God’s tender mercy. With friends like that…

            Also noteworthy in the passage is that after murdering 70,000 innocents for David’s boo-boo God seems to come to his senses and the place where God ends his killing spree is the location of the future Temple. The grand Temple would be a constant reminder of God’s murderous rampage.

            Apollo(Quote)Lorkas June 12, 2009 at 12:53 pm You know, it might be worthwhile to break down the Dawkins quote and give at least one verse as a source for each adjective/noun used to describe the God of the Old Testament.

            Something like:
            Jealous and proud of it–Exodus 20:5, 34:14
            Petty–[...]

            Lorkas(Quote)Cameron June 15, 2009 at 10:25 am One thing I love to point out to Evangelical Christians is how God tells David in 2 Samuel 12:8,9 that He gave David WIVES and would have given him even more! This destroys their argument God only intended marriage to be between 1 man and 1 woman. They never know how to counter this argument. Then for disrespecting God according to verse 14, God kills David’s infant son. Apparently God’s ego couldn’t handle what David did.

            Cameron(Quote)Really August 6, 2009 at 6:37 am Do yall really look for arguement points to belittle people when you want to argue with them. Guess what, its hard to prove to someone that they are wrong when the foundation of their religion is faith. Why don’t you do your thing and they’ll do their’s. Seriously if religion helps people to be better human beings and many do. I know religion causes many wars yada yada but if you stop and think Christians have done as much good as bad. Atheist are no better their are good ones and bad ones. Just live your life and quit pestering.

            Really(Quote)

            – See more at: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=21#sthash.9zxdwqaw.dpuf

          • Zaba

            less

    • oyhavn

      This is so true and spot on.

  • http://ruleofreason.blogspot.com/ Edward Cline

    The Koran is nothing if not literal. That’s the way Muslims and their spokesmen like it. Excise all the violent verses from the Koran and Hadith and what you’d have left is a creed as banal and non-belligerent as the Amish. Notice that the Amish are not proselytizing their brand of Christianity even peacefully, never mind with guns, bombs, beheadings, armies, and terror.

    • Softly Bob

      I agree. If you remove all the violence from the Q’uran and Hadith then you are left with hardly anything and what is left is nothing like Islam.
      But of course, that raises another question. If you remove all this material then you are effectively removing the words of Allah and Allah promised that the Q’uran would never be changed by mankind. Therefore is it possible to alter Muslim scriptures and still claim that there is any truth in Islam?
      No it isn’t.
      Islam can never be reformed. The only option is to destroy it!

      • http://ruleofreason.blogspot.com/ Edward Cline

        That’s right. The word of Allah can’t be changed, altered, or deleted. That’s what they claim. The only feasible option is to destroy Islam as we destroyed Nazism (and, by default, Communism).

        • Softly Bob

          The only way to destroy Islam is by also destroying cultural Marxism which is enabling it.
          Therefore if it ever comes to a fight, we will probably have no choice other than to treat Leftists and Muslims as being one and the same. In World War Two there was no real distinction (other than for strategic purposes and the fact that they fought in different geographical areas) between Germans and Japanese. They were both the enemy and it was equally justifiable to kill both or capture them as prisoners-of-war.

          I suspect however, that if it comes to that the cowardly Left would not fight at all.

          They would just choose the side which they thought had the best chance of winning. Some would defect back to our camp (but could we ever trust them?) and others would stay on the side of Muslims.

          • ObamaYoMoma

            Actually, both you guys got it exactly backwards. The reality is, per the Doctrine of Abrogation that is universally accepted throughout Islamic totalitarian society, all the earlier issued peaceful verses of the Koran and the same exact verses of the Koran that once made Islam a religion, have all been abrogated by the latter issued infamous sword verses of the Koran they conflict with and that were some of the very last verses of the Koran issued by Muhammad shortly before his death.

            Thus, since all the earlier issued peaceful verses of the Koran that at one time made Islam a religion are no longer applicable since they have all been abrogated, then this means that Islam today is defined by the latter issued sword verses of the Koran in which commands all Muslims to wage jihad in the cause of Allah against all infidels until such time as Islam and its followers have been made supreme.

            Therefore, this manifestation subsequent to the Hijra and during the Medinan period represents a tremendous transformation of Islam, (or reformation of Islam if you will), from once being a religion during the Meccan period that was very similar to other religions of the time, into becoming what it is today, which is a very draconian and very aggressive form of totalitarianism that seeks to make itself and its followers supreme above all others in the world.

            Nonetheless, just because Muslims are inculcated to believe that Islam is their religion, it doesn’t mean that we infidels have to be suicidal enough to likewise consider Islam to be their religion as well, as it obviously is not a religion, at least anymore. Indeed, unless and until Islam is eradicated from the face of the earth, jihad will continue to ravage and plague the world perpetually forever.

          • Softly Bob

            I was actually aware of the doctrine of abrogation, but my point was that you couldn’t remove the violent verses anyway, even if you wanted to, because the very fabric of Islam is based upon the fact that the Q’uran is the unalterable, word of Allah. To remove any verses from the Q’uran would be seen as a great blasphemy.

            Even the peaceful verses have not been removed from the Q’uran despite the fact that abrogation has made them irrelevant, because they are still the words of Allah, even though later he supposedly changed his mind.
            However, I suspect the real reason that the peaceful verses are still there is so that they can be used as tools of taqiyya to fool the infidel whenever Muslims choose to do so.

            The only verses that were (supposedly) removed from the Q’uran are the verses of the Gharaniq incident (Satanic verses) because they did not come from Allah in the first place.

          • Zaba

            You’ve learned well!

          • De Doc

            The big problem is that the Quran provides NO historical context to make these distinctions. The Meccan v. Medinan revelations are almost entirely arbitrary and were assigned long after the Quran and its companion literature (Hadiths and Sira) were already in circulation. Indeed the word ‘Mecca’ does not appear anywhere in the Quran.

          • Larry Larkin

            It gets worse when you consider that the verses are arranged in descending order of size, not chronologically.

          • ObamaYoMoma

            The big problem is that the Quran provides NO historical context to make these distinctions.

            What distinctions? When and where the various verses of the Koran were issued. All of it is self-evident via the Sunnah.

            The Meccan v. Medinan revelations are almost entirely arbitrary

            Not at all.

            I don’t know where you are getting your information about Islam from, but I would highly suggest that you seek your information from some more legitimate sources that obviously aren’t trying to hide the truth about Islam.

          • De Doc

            The Sunnah is not considered scripture in Islam. The word alludes to the exemplar life of Muhammad for all Muslims to follow. The sunnah is derived from Quran, Hadith, Sira and precedence of Islamic jurisprudence. Sunnah therefore is opinion, so by definition cannot be ‘self-evident’. You confuse Sunnah for history, which it most certainly is not.

            You seem to think that the Islam as presented from its own POV is the absolute and unvarnished truth. This is strange, because it requires one to believe fantastic tales that strain the bounds of credulity. Ive read extensively on Islam from its own POVS and from a historical critical method, so I think I am well versed on what constitutes ‘legitimate sources.’

            That said, I am not so foolish as to believe that the dyed-in-wool Islamist will actually care about the truth on Islam’s real, historical origins. Beliefs can be powerful motivators for people, no matter how irrational or mythical.

          • ObamaYoMoma

            Your response is so convoluted and delusional that even responding back to you would obviously be a complete and utter waste of time. Apparently, you are so married to your leftwing Marxist totalitarian ideology and insane worldview that you are unable to overcome your own delusions of grandeur and utopian fantasizes as you have been rendered literally insane. Thus, if you want to continue hoping and wishing for a reformation to occur within Islam so that your worldview can somehow be salvaged, while people who forgot more about Islam than you will ever come close to knowing tell you that it is absolutely impossible, then go right ahead. It’s no hair off my back. Rolls eyes.

          • De Doc

            LMAO! I’m a Marxist now, because i read critical scholarship on Islamic origins. I guess Robert Spencer is also a Left wing ideologue according to your definition.

            I’ve noticied your posts since I’ve been visiting FP Mag and let’s just say they are tendentious. By your reckoning everyone else is dead wrong about everything and you are always right. Two types of people in this world are ‘always right’ – extremist zealots and con artists. I can’t decide which one you are at this point.

            I could continue this discussion in further detail by pointing your factual errors, egregious assumptions, and baseless accusations, but I’d probably have better luck arguing with a brick wall and spend less time at it to boot.

          • ObamaYoMoma

            LMAO! I’m a Marxist now,

            Obviously yes, as that what you Leftists are, i.e., Marxist totalitarians, you know anti-Capitalist, anti-freedom, and anti-liberty zeros. Not to mention that you are obviously an unhinged moonbat and the personification of the type of leftwing loon Greenfield was pointing to in his article. Thus, let me thank you for Greenfield for demonstrating it you moron.

          • Zaba

            islam has soooo many dark, dirty secrets.
            I just loves outing them!

        • Lightbringer

          Did we destroy Communism? It looks more as if it morphed into contemporary “ism’s” like the Green movement, the various grievance movements, and so forth. I fear that it is still very vigorously alive and still with us.

      • Uzoozy

        Quran is a very holy book.

        • Zaba

          hardly!

  • ObamaYoMoma

    There are some Muslims who actually practice something like this, but they are a tiny minority and hardly theologically influential.

    Got to call you out on this one. Any people of alleged Islamic persuasion that practice something like an Islamic counterpart to liberalized forms of Christianity and Judaism, are not Muslims at all, but blasphemous apostates that according to the dictates of Islam must be executed.

    Indeed, Islam must strictly enforce its tenets, otherwise if it doesn’t then it will quickly fall apart and cease to exist.

    Now I’m not saying that there are some people in outlying areas of the world in Africa and in some of the old Soviet provinces that practice a less than full strength version of Islam, I’m saying instead that those individuals are not full blown Muslims practicing the true full strength version of Islam and that those people would be forced into a convert or die scenario if armed full strength Muslims ever made their way over there. As a matter of fact, hundreds of thousands of those less than full strength Muslims have been slaughtered by full strength Muslims in the Darfur region of Sudan.

    What Holland is proposing is completely unrealistic because not only are non-Muslim variants of such faiths weakening and losing members, but they are also demographically losing out to Islam.

    Actually, what he is proposing is absolutely impossible for a lot of reasons too numerous to list here. Suffice it to say that it is absolutely impossible for Islam to ever be reformed into a less than full strength version of what it is today, as anyone attempting it, for instance, would be executed immediately for blasphemy and apostasy.

    Holland is just a typical leftwing dufus that doesn’t have the first clue about what he is talking about because he hasn’t done the requisite study of the texts, tenets, practices, and history of Islam.

    The texts of Islam are always followed in the most literal way possible because the texts of the Koran are believed by all Muslims to be the direct verbatim texts of Allah (God) as dictated to Muhammad by the Archangel Gabriel. Hence, since it is the direct verbatim text of Allah (God), then it is absolutely perfect and completely flawless.

    Thus, not only do Muslims always take the texts of the Koran only in the most literal way possible, but they also regard it as abrogating all other various manmade laws throughout the world as well. Hence, all borders and all democracies, for instance, are abominations in Islam that must be eradicated and destroyed because they emanate from man as opposed to emanating from the flawless laws of Allah (God).

  • Texas Patriot

    Fascinating discussion, Daniel. I think the Professor may be onto something.

    • De Doc

      There are already a number of books out on this topic. My recommendations as introduction to this topic are two recent works that won’t put you into slumber land after the first few pages:

      N. Pressburg, “What the Modern Martyr Should Know” (2012)

      R. Spencer, “Did Muhammad Exist” (2012)

      Check out Holland’s book too.

      • Softly Bob

        The problem here is that books are only any good if people actually read them. These books are simply preaching to the choir or sometimes to the occasional open-minded but ignorant person who may actually learn something from them.
        Neither Muslims nor Leftists will actually read these books. Such books to them are like garlic to vampires.

        The only solution we have to solve the problem of Islam is to wipe it off the face of the Earth.

        • De Doc

          Irshad Manji, a reform minded Muslim in Canada, did cite C. Luxenberg’s idea (from “The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Qur’an”) about the virgins in paradise really being a reference to white grapes, so some actually read these works from the other side. Of course Islamists are decidedly not championing Manji’s call for reform and I doubt the likes of al-Baghdadi will be perusing the Quranic textual criticism of Luxenberg anytime soon!.

          There are today two reform sects of Islam that have rejected much of the nastiest components of the old Islam, namely Ahmadiyyah and Bahai, but these are viewed as heresies and heavily persecuted in the lands or their origin (Pakistan and Iran respectively). The Islam of al-Baghdadi is not that different or more radical than the one espoused by the King of KSA and armies of clerical stooges, so reform is a tough sell in any form for this religion.

          • Softly Bob

            I’m aware of Christoph Luxenberg’s work but have never read it. I did hear about the white raisins theory though and thought it was quite amusing. Not exactly what jihadists think that they are going to get.

          • De Doc

            I actually managed to plow through the English translation of “The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran” and let’s just say it was a difficult read at its best. The English translation apparently was the ‘dumbed down’ version from the original monograph in German. Yeesh!

          • ObamaYoMoma

            Irshad Manji, a reform minded Muslim in Canada

            The only people who consider the lesbian Irshad Manji to be a Muslim, are the same people that also consider Dr. Zuhdi Jasser to be a Muslim, i.e., naïve infidels.

            Meanwhile, to all legitimate Muslims, on the other hand, both of them are blasphemous apostates that must be executed per the dictates of Islam ASAP.

            Hence, it’s a very good thing that they both live in the infidel west as opposed to the Islamic totalitarian world instead, because if they lived over there they would both already be dead.

            Hence, I wouldn’t put any stock whatsoever in what either one of them has to say about Islam, as they are obviously not Muslims, but infidels instead. Infidels may be naïve enough to believe that they are Muslims, but believe me they won’t dupe Muslims.

            By the way, for a lot of reasons it is absolutely impossible for Islam to ever be reformed. It’s a hopeless cause and a terrible waste of time to think that it can.

          • De Doc

            It wasn’t too long ago when Catholicism was considered the one and only legitimate expression of Christianity. And now?

            Reform is possible for religion, but at times with much chaos and bloodshed. With Islam it is very difficult because it’s canon of scripture contains so many inhumane ideas.

          • ObamaYoMoma

            Your response is so convoluted and delusional that even responding back to you would obviously be a complete and utter waste of time. Apparently, you are so married to your leftwing Marxist totalitarian ideology and insane worldview that you are unable to overcome your own delusions of grandeur and utopian fantasies as you have been rendered literally insane. Thus, if you want to continue hoping and wishing for a reformation to occur within Islam so that your worldview can somehow be salvaged, while people who forgot more about Islam than you will ever come close to knowing tell you that it is absolutely impossible, then go right ahead. It’s no hair off my back. Rolls eyes.

      • Texas Patriot

        Thanks!

  • http://islamsfatalflaw.blogspot.com/ BobSmith101

    Without Islamic reformation – nothing will change.

    Islam is simply a bad blueprint for a society/civilization.

    You cannot have a “religious doctrine” that teaches hatred and incites its followers to commit violence. If you do, at least a small percentage followers will follow these teachings. After that – it is only numbers – how many will commit this religious inspired violence.

    Unfortunately – the numbers of Islamic religious thug reaches a sort of “critical mass”. And these thugs control Islam.

    Reformation will not come from within Islam. It needs a push from the non-Muslim world.

    • ObamaYoMoma

      Good luck with that and the reason I wish you good luck is because a reformation of Islam is absolutely impossible. Not to mention that Islam has already undergone a reformation of sorts subsequent to the Hijra during the Medinan period, when it was transformed by Muhammad into once being a religion similar to other religions of the time into becoming what it is today, which is a very draconian and aggressive form of totalitarianism that seeks to make itself and its followers supreme above all others throughout the world.

    • Softly Bob

      It can’t be reformed without destroying it altogether. So I suggest cutting out the middle man and just destroying it altogether.

  • Biff Henderson

    Slicin’and dicin’

    • liz

      The Mensa Club of Islam.

      • Biff Henderson

        Mensa or Meze? They act as if someone snacked on their brains as an appetizer.

        • liz

          A little too much inbreeding might have something to do with it, combined with the mental wasting disease of Islam.

          • Uzoozy

            Check your inbreeding it came from Africa and Arabs, DNA will bear this out.
            Shalom

          • Zaba

            takiya

          • Zaba

            Yes indeed.
            1400 years of first cousin marriages will tend to do that.

            themuslimissue.wordpress.com

          • liz

            Thanks for the link – great site!

          • Zaba

            very welcome!

            Pass it on; LOTS of terrific pro Israel and counterjihad websites out there.

            This guy is more pro Israel, but has that wicked sarcasm you will enjoy.
            Also appears in JPost and other places.

            http://myrightword.blogspot.com

      • Zaba

        morons for mensa

  • bob e

    ‘As I wrote in Moderate Islam is Our New Religion, the only worshipers of moderate Islam are liberals because it only exists in their minds.’
    dan .. these words do it all for me ..

  • DaveGinOly

    It’s time for humanity to grow up and realize that all of its religions are “fictions bred of a particular context and period.” All religions were born at times in which there was no other way to account for our existence, our origins, or the nature of the world and the universe. (Although there are “new” religions cropping up all the time, they do little more than rehash old themes. But they require the doubly-ignorant act of willfully ignoring science and modern knowledge of the natural world. At least those who originated the old religions didn’t have science to ignore – they were working in a vacuum.) Those times are past, and it’s time to divest ourselves of beliefs that have their foundations in ignorance. As mighty and as worthwhile as some of these beliefs are, they are all false, because they are all man-made.

    Next I expect to see responses consisting of Bible quotes that insist on the accuracy of scripture. I find it curious that the same people who will post these responses can read of Mohammed’s ascension into heaven on a winged horse and identify it as fiction, yet they will insist that their equally fanciful beliefs are factual and historical.

    • De Doc

      The funny thing is that I’ve not seen, heard or read of a single case of Amish or Jains beheading their non-believing neighbors. I may not agree with their respective theologies, but these groups are benign. Even Westboro Baptist, as outrageous their actions be, has never killed or physically harmed a single person or called for armed insurrection against the US.

      Religions are not going away any time soon, so humanity must deal with what it has in the here and now. Islam, in its currently accepted and practiced form, has proven beyond doubt, that it can’t live with modernity. Bashing Christianity offers no solution to the problem of Islamic theology, but only draws attention away from a need to reform that religion by spreading blame across the entire religious landscape.

    • http://iamonecommonman.com laad labakdaas

      Yours is an assholic approach that is everybit as dangerous as those jihadi nutcases. What you consider religion for you is a custom or tradition for sombody else. Don’t try to force your thoughts down everybody’s throat in the name of uniformity.

      The discussion here is about Islam. So please don’t digress.

    • ObamaYoMoma

      It’s time for humanity to grow up and realize that all of its religions are “fictions bred of a particular context and period.

      Why are you attacking all religions? Don’t you understand that’s extremely bigoted? You obviously don’t have the first clue about religion, but yet you attack all religions just the same. Nonetheless, if you understood the first thing about religion maybe you would know that Islam is not a religion, as it is a very draconian form of totalitarianism instead masquerading as being a religion to dupe the gullible useful idiot infidels like you it targets. Sorry to have to rain on your clueless parade.

    • liz

      A very valid point, but your expectations of the responses to it here are unfortunately all too accurate.

  • PAthena

    Note that Mohammedanism is a silly religion. If God (Allah) is omnipotent, omniscient, and all good, then why is there evil in the world. Why does anyone have to submit to him, since He can make us (and anything else) do whatever He wants?

  • Gee

    My solution is to literally put an end to Islam. That is the real problem

  • http://iamonecommonman.com laad labakdaas

    Those who follow an arrogant religion that says “my religion alone is the only religion” and “there is no room for atheists and idol worshippers in this world” don’t deserve to speak about racism.

    When you recite these racist verses 5 times a day you should first introspect before calling anybody a bigot or a racist. When all other religions be it Hinduism, Christianity or any other religion has had reform why is Islam above reform?

    We should force reform down their throat very much like how Islam was forced down their throat in the early years of the spread of Islam. No person deserves to die for freedom of speech. If you are butthurt about your beliefs go and commit suicide.

  • Naresh Krishnamoorti

    I disagree with you here, Daniel. Higher criticism, or historical criticism, did a lot over one hundred years to weaken a sense of Christianity. My antidote to the Islam problem is to create a movement in Islam that can do the same. It’s not as if there has been no such precedent in Islam, from Sufism to Averroism.

    First, we need to treat Saudi Arabia as the enemy that it is, and freeze all its bank accounts. They are the reason why the Islamic world is embracing Koranic literalism (Salafism). There has to be a global commitment to fund imams, scholars, research, etc., that would do to Islam what liberalism did to Christianity.

    • ObamaYoMoma

      Yeah right….good luck with that.

    • De Doc

      So far higher criticism as applied to Islam has met with lackluster results. Don’t get me wrong for I am a huge fan of the approach, but I think political correctness has been so effective and pernicious, as to nullify any historical critical views of Islam. But I agree with you that advocating for the already reformed types of Islam is far better, than continuing the suicidal allowance for the Wahabi/Salafi expressions.

      • ObamaYoMoma

        But I agree with you that advocating for the already reformed types of Islam is far better,

        Yeah right. The already so-called reformed types by definition in Islam are blasphemous apostate that per the dictates of Islam must be executed. You are very severely mentally incompetent.

        • De Doc

          Yeah, I thought you’d choose this route. *click*

        • Zaba

          I remain confidant the West is awakening.
          Our number one problem is
          lack of education about islam.

          Number two: islam

          WE can do it!
          I’ve started to talk about islam wherever I go;
          it can be a real ‘conversation killer’!

      • Zaba

        one koran

    • Zaba

      Sounds good, but islam is islam, unreformable, unchangeable.
      Talk to mo abut it.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    The real question then should be – how do we start the destruction or reformation.

    You know how people like me that have studied Islam intensely know immediately when they are dealing with someone that has very little knowledge about Islam? It’s when that someone naively advocates for the reformation of Islam because they naively equate it as being a religion.

    Not only is reforming Islam absolutely impossible, but by far more than anything else, Islam is a very draconian and very aggressive form of totalitarianism that seeks to make itself and its adherents supreme throughout the world, as opposed to being a so-called religion. However, approximately 1.7 billion Muslims unfortunately believe it is a religion, and that is a problem. A major problem.

  • Sudipta Barat

    There is no Moderate Islam, pointless to pretend otherwise, wherever Islam entered, it entered with war and bloodshed, yes there was and is A SUFI ISLAM based on love but it is being increasingly rejected by Islamists.

    • Zaba

      Sufis are not non violent.
      American sufism is non violent.

  • Lightbringer

    Your idealism does you credit. But this old cynic really wonders if your list of ideas would ever be implemented in a world of dhimmis and dimwits.

  • TALAL ITANI

    Even that is impossible. I am a Muslim, and I live in the United States, and I read the Quran, and understand it as I understand what I am reading.
    If you want to know what QURAN says, you can read it at http://www.clearquran.com

    • ObamaYoMoma

      If the politicians in America weren’t completely blinded by the cult of multiculturalism and political correctness, which unfortunately has replaced common sense today in America, they would not only immediately ban and reverse mass Muslim immigration with all of its excess baggage ASAP, as like you are so aptly demonstrating because it is really stealth and deceptive jihad waged intentionally non-violently by design, but they would also outlaw and ban the Quran as well.

    • Zaba

      takiya

  • Zaba

    Not much good about islam…..