Do We All Believe in the Same God?

bible_quranA commonly heard claim is that Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in “the same God.” These are comforting words and of great assistance to those wishing to engage in interfaith dialogues and tri-faith ventures. But is this true? To answer that question, let’s look at what is said and taught about Jews and Christians by Allah, the god of Islam, and Muhammad, Allah’s prophet. We’ll start with the Koran.

The Koran

Muslims believe the Koran is the infallible, timeless and perfect word of Allah. So what does Allah say in the Koran about Jews and Christians?

To set the stage, Allah states that the only religion acceptable to him is Islam (e.g., 3:19 and 3:85). And Allah states that Islam is to be made superior over all other religions, even if the non-Muslims don’t like it (e.g., 9:33, 48:28, and 61:9).

Allah states that he is angry with the Jews, and the Christians are misguided in their beliefs (1:7). In fact, Allah curses the Jews and Christians (9:30). He states that the Jews and Christians are among the worst of creatures who “will abide in the fire of Hell” (98:6), while Muslims are the best of creatures (3:110 and 98:7). He forbids Muslims from being friends with Jews and Christians (5:51). Instead, Allah commands Muslims to fight the Jews and Christians until those Jews and Christians pay the jizyah (protection tax), with willing submission and feeling themselves subdued (9:29).

Allah specifically states that the Jews are among the worst enemies of Islam (5:82).

Allah states that Christianity is a false religion. Allah says that Jesus was not crucified, but it only appeared so (4:157-158). Allah states that he took Jesus bodily into paradise and made one of Jesus’ disciples look like Jesus; it was that disciple who was crucified. So Muslims who know their religion look at a crucifix or a painting of the Crucifixion and see an imposter hanging on the cross. And of course, if there was no Crucifixion, there was no Resurrection. So Islam teaches that Christianity is based on a fraud.

Allah also states that those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God commit the one unforgiveable sin in Islam, Shirk (e.g., 4:48 and 4:116). In fact, Allah curses Christians specifically for this belief (9:30) and says that those who so believe will go to Hell (e.g., 3:151 and 5:72-73).

Muhammad

Islam teaches that Muhammad spoke for Allah (4:80), and Allah commands Muslims to obey Muhammad (59:7). And Muhammad is considered the timeless standard by which Muslims should conduct themselves (33:21). So what did Muhammad have to say?

He said Jews and Christians are worth only half as much as a Muslim,[1]and he gave the following advice about what to do when meeting Jews and Christians:

Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.[2]

Muhammad said that the Jews were grave robbers,[3] and he said,

The Hour will not be established until you fight against the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say, ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.[4]

Muhammad said that on the Day of Resurrection, mountains of sins would be removed from the backs of Muslims and put onto the Jews and Christians.[5] Muhammad even said that Jews and Christians would take the place of Muslims in Hell.[6]

And on his death bed Muhammad said:

I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.[7]

These are timeless commands and statements from Allah and Muhammad, and Muslims are not allowed to disagree with them (33:36).

So if Allah is God and the Koran consists of statements and commands from Allah, if Muhammad spoke for Allah, and if Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in that same God, then Jews and Christians believe in and worship a God who hates and curses them, orders Muslims to fight them, and condemns them to Hell simply because they are not Muslims.

Either we are talking about a pagan god of multiple, compartmentalized personalities, or the claim that Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in the same God is theological nonsense.

Notes:

[1] Muhammad bin Yazeed ibn Majah Al-Qazwini, Sunan Ibn Majah, trans. Nasiruddin al-Khattab, Vol. 3 (Riyadh, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia: Darussalam, 2007), No. 2644, p. 521.

[2] Abu’l Hussain ‘Asakir-ud-Din Muslim bin Hajjaj al-Qushayri al-Naisaburi, Sahih Muslim, trans. Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, Vol. 6 (New Delhi: Adam Publishers and Distributors, 2008), No. 2167, p. 439.

[3] Muhammad bin Ismail bin Al-Mughirah Al-Bukhari, Sahih Al-Bukhari, trans. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Vol. 4 (Riyadh, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia: Darussalam, 1997), Book 60, No. 3452, p. 413.

[4] Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 56, No. 2926, p. 113.

[5] 110 Ahadith Qudsi: Sayings of the Prophet Having Allahs Statements, 3rd ed., trans. Syed Masood-ul-Hasan (Riyadh, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia: Darussalam, 2006), No. 8, titled Superiority of the believers in the Oneness of Allah and the punishment of Jews and Christians, pp. 19-20.

[6] Sahih Muslim, Vol. 8, No. 2767R1, p. 269.

[7] Sahih Muslim, Vol. 5, No. 1767, p. 189.

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  • Cristinascar

    This is only the Koran what about the laws of Omar? He who was the arbiter of the concept of Dhimmi, it gets much worse.

  • Yehuda Levi

    Allah, as the absolute authority of Islam, cannot possibly exist unless you believe in a god that hates women, hates homosexuals, considers stealing from others OK, considers non-believers as infidels or second-class human beings, considers beheading of infidels OK, etc.

    Any god that would promote the values of today’s muslims is definitely not the same G-d that I believe in – or would ever want to believe in.

    • Lanna

      And Jesus preaches love not hate!

    • jarhead1969

      We might add that any God that would promote the values and teachings of the Tulmud and the Cabbala, is definitely not the God of Christianity, nor even the God of the Old Testament. A god that believes that all non-Jews are “goi or goyim” animals, among all the other filth taught in the satanic Tulmud, is certainly not the god of other religions, and is especially not the God of Christianity.

      • fadestyle

        not just animals but “unclean animals”

      • homer

        The Khazars !!!

      • homer

        This is why they are Banker’s ,, We are not their brothers ,,,,
        http://www.openbible.info/topics/usury

        • fadestyle

          i hate to inform you that bankers consist of all races.

          • homer

            Crypto-Judaism is the secret adherence to Judaismwhile publicly professing to be of another faith; practitioners are referred to as “crypto-Jews” (origin from Greek kryptos – κρυπτός, ‘hidden’). The term crypto-Jew is also used to describe descendants who maintain some Jewish traditions of their ancestors while publicly adhering to other faiths. The term is especially applied historically to European Jews who—outwardly or forcedly—professedCatholicism,[1][2][3][4][5] also known as Anusim orMarrano.

          • fadestyle

            i hate to inform you that cronyism is in EVERYTHING AND ALL BELIEFS. do you really have the mind set to blame jews for everything? seriously?

          • homer

            Are you one of us “unclean animals” ??

          • fadestyle

            if you read peters vision you will see there is no difference in Jew and Gentile. read it… its a good read.

          • homer

            Oh Peter the penis God ,, Like the peter Obelisk in St Peter square in Rome ,, lol !! Yeah ,, I’ll be sure to read that ,,, lol !!!

          • fadestyle

            scripture says to point out the evil and ill go out on a limb and point out you are a punk.

          • homer

            You know they brought that Obelisk straight in from Egypt ,, Its Osiris penis ,,, Haaa haa ,, lol !!!
            https://www.google.com/search?q=Osius&oq=Osius&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=Osiris+in+egypt&spell=1

          • fadestyle

            im not catholic and nor do i worship catholic obelisks. i dont even belong to a building with a steeple.

          • homer

            Oh ,, your mentioned the Peter ,, You worship in a
            Sin A Gog ??

          • fadestyle

            i see you cant spell either, i guess you just got off school and hopped on mommies computer before she gets home form work?

          • homer

            Its ok ,, There ‘s nothing wrong with worshiping a penis god ,, If thats what you like ,, lol !!

          • homer

            Yeah ,, but I’m right ,, The truth will set you freeeee … lol !!!

          • homer

            Is yewish a race or a religion ??

          • fadestyle

            sounds like a stupid strawman argument to divert or build in a crazy effort to demonize.

          • homer

            Answer the question !!

          • fadestyle

            i think youre a quack and the question not only no interest to me, proves nothing in the context i understand and could care less to. i read scripture and if you can point to some scripture i would be glad to hear it.

        • fadestyle

          you can take your Jew hate else where

          • homer

            One of my favorite singers is yewish ,, Its the
            Usury I have a problem with

          • fadestyle

            again i hate to inform you that all races observe usury. goodness.

          • homer

            Are we talking race or religions ??

          • homer

            Islam ?? Why do you talk race when we are talking religion ??

          • fadestyle

            Jew is not a religion and you comment to state this is why “they” are bankers. so yes you brought race into this.

          • homer

            Jew is not a religion ,, Haaa haa ,, lol ,, Yeah they are really just a fraud like all the rest ,, lol !!!

          • Edd2013

            Fadestyle, thanks for a skillful, inspiring and honorable debate with some hateful character. Even though his comments have been deleted, I can infer the canned hateful narrative that took place.

          • fadestyle

            do you even know what a Jew is?

          • homer

            They were the Hyksos in ancient Egypt …
            The Hyksos or Hycsos (/ˈhɪksɒs/ or /ˈhɪksoʊz/;[3] Egyptian heqa khaseshet, “ruler(s) of the foreign countries”; Greek Ὑκσώς,Ὑξώς Jews ) were a multiracial people from Middle East who took over the eastern Nile Delta, ending the Thirteenth Dynasty of Egyptand initiating the Second Intermediate Period.[4]

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

          • fadestyle

            hebrews are decedents from Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

          • homer

            I don’t think the Islamic religion does ,, but I don’t know about all races

      • Mike Miller

        What you are describing has been JeudenSport for thousands of years. God’s enemies like yourself have been misquoting and blatantly lying about our Holy Scriptures with little concern. Because you hide behind the clumsy shape of your head means I can’t find you, and am not interested to. But God knows who and where you are. Maybe you should rethink your stance, you are playing with mega fire, you are likely to get mega burned. Devout Jews like myself have no problem with your kind, we laugh in your face, we are not helpless little Jews anymore who seem to have lost our way in some far flung part of Europe.

        • fadestyle

          amen, vengeance in mine sayeth the Lord.

          • homer

            Did you know that Amen was one of the ancient egyptian gods ??

          • fadestyle

            did you know they used english letters too and spelled it the exact same way?

          • homer

            Did you know the letter J as in Jew or Judah is just a couple of hundred years old ?? It took the place of I in some words ,, thats why the original king James bible .. James was spelt with a I ,,,King Iames Bible ,, Hebrew didn’t have a letter J ,, They used Y ,,

          • fadestyle

            you really think the people here are clueless? you are telling us anything people here do not know.

          • homer

            I was just talking to clueless you ,, Haaa haa ,, lol !!!

          • fadestyle

            i guess that is why you are a day late an dollar short?

            … tell me one thing, do you always get the last laugh?

          • homer

            sin the moon god
            Sin A Gog
            https://www.google.com/search?q=sin+the+moon+god&oq=sin+the+moon+god&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i65.9750j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

          • fadestyle

            do you always get the last laugh?

          • homer

            You started it ,, calling me names ,, lol ,, I was just giving out info !!! And yes I would rather have the last laugh when I know I’m right ,, if I’m wrong I will admit it ,, but you won’t ,, lol !!!

          • fadestyle

            my grandfather told me that “he who laughs last… thinks slowest”

          • homer

            So your grandfather was a idiot ??? Sorry to here that ! I try to learn things on my own from many different sources ,, I hope I HAVE HELPED YOU SOME ,, GOOD LUCK TO YOU .

          • fadestyle

            i was expecting a long slow but confused laugh on your way out? darn.and if you saw me at the store and you said that to my face i’d knock that pie hole right off your face. i can turn the other cheek by my grandfather is dead and can not defend him self.

          • homer

            Why is yours such violent Lord ??

          • fadestyle

            i think proverbs 26:4 comes to mind

          • homer

            You have been brainwashed ,, go look in the mirror and think about all the b/s you have been fed in your life

        • homer

          So is Jewish a race of people or just a religion ??

          • fadestyle

            quit pushing an agenda. you can not have jews or anything jewish with out judah. im sure youll make another stupid comment.

          • homer

            Did you know that ancient Hebrew had no vowels in their language ??

          • fadestyle

            you saw i have been posting Hebrew in the lower comments and you ask me that? are you really that stupid?

        • jarhead1969

          On the contrary – in regards to Judaism and its satanic agenda I suggest you read:

          “Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years”, by Professor Israel Shahak, with introduction by Gore Vidal. One of hundreds of Jewish historical “confessions” by influential and professional Jews,rabbi’s, historians and the like who admit and reveal the insides of the “perfidious” Jew. Or even the historical writings of the famous Jewish Historian Cecil Roth.

          “To communicate anything of our law to a Gentile means the death of all Hebrews: for if the Goyim (Gentile) knew what we teach about them, they would exterminate us without mercy”. Talmud “Dav. Fol. 37.

          Or maybe the very notable Edmond Flig, or highly regarded Jewish writer Kadmi Cohen, the notable historian Heinrich Graitz, or Alfred Nossig, Jacob von Haas, Hans Cohen Paul Sokolowsky, and many other to quote from their works and writings that were meant for Jewish eyes only. The finish with the Babylonian Talmud, with among other filth and garbage is expressed the most satatnic hatred for Christ an;d Christianity – Sepher – Ha – Zohar.

          We might also read the many translations of the Talmud along with the excellent work of Prof. Rev. I. B. Pranaitis, Master of Theology and Professor of the Hebrew Language at the Imperial Ecclesiastical Academy of the Roman Catholic Church in old St. Petersburg, 1892; for which the Jews ultimately had Fr. Pranaitis murdered..

          Go tell it to the other dumb goi’s, but don’[t throw your perfidious lies and ignorance at me.

    • Edd2013

      When trying to understand Christianity, the main question to ask “what would Jesus do. But, when you want to understand Islam, the question to ask is “what would Satan do.” And everything they do makes sense. Two worship God, one worships Satan (the great deceiver) masquerading as God.

  • Mansoor Tirmizi

    Your translation of the verses of the Quran is absolutely right, correct, and true. You just need to put these verses into proper context which is missing in your effort. Something is specific and you mention it as generic and vice-versa. You did not focus on the connotation but, I must appreciate, that you did not distort the denotation. Allah bless you in your pursuit of the truth.

    • fadestyle

      context? how do you you take
      “There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.[4]”
      …out of context? please share how you would put that into a good context? and no, i rebuke any so called “blessing” from your devil named “Allah”

    • efraim mackellar

      Allah’s blessing would be a curse. Muslims behead Christians as infidels, calling them polytheists. Islam is a false religion. You do not even know what the Trinity consists of. LOL.

    • iluvisrael

      Your bloodthirsty cult has been exposed for the violent ideology it its.

    • cjkcjk

      Tell Allah (Satan) to suck off!

  • camp7

    And God said unto Moses, “I Am Who I Am:” and he said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.” ~ Exodus 3:14

    “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I Am.”
    ~ John 8:58

    God does not change, only the face of man changes, and they come and go.

    We can call God whatever name we choose. It doesn’t change the divine nature of God. Muhammad, like Lucifer has fallen, along with their wicked followers.

    • fadestyle

      You may call the creator of the universe anything you want but he only answers to one name. a little hint… its not a title.

      • eldon johansen

        its also not J with a Zeus after it.

        • fadestyle

          Jesus may not be as bad as many may think. even though i say and use the Hebrew name when calling upon the Messiah but you must study Language and how one language translates one word to a word that sounds as close as you can in the new language. please research the name of Yeshuah in the King James 1611. it was spelled with a Iesus. thats right an I was used because Greek had no Y letters so an I was used and when it all got transliterated it eventually boiled down to Jesus. that is the short explanation with out writing a book on language transliterations.

  • efraim mackellar

    Jews and Christians do not believe in the same God. The article fails to mention that. All three religions worship different deities.

    • Cristinascar

      That’s because you’re wrong, you’ve spent too much time learning lies, from twisted liars. Christians and Jews believe in the same God. If you only knew how many specific little tidbits of Christianity were taken from Jews, then made off limits to Jews, then consequences from there, you would feel foolish making that statement. But the censorship of the powerful will allow you to feel smart, and never realize how wrong you are.

      I would like to claim again the seperation between Jews and Christians never happened. First. Just Christians got so powerful they stopped credidtting what the took, and the Jews got sop meager, they started agreeing that Christians were always smarter than them until; maybe the last 3 generations that censorship worked.

      Also Islam takes things word for from the Talmud and rabbbis, Christians at least changed a few words to make it their own. All you know are lies, except maybe math, because that can’t be lies sio I guess it is all we have in common. (an example that is widely known to learned Jews but completely unknown to Muslims is when Mohamed says we learned from the children of Isra that to take a life is to destroy a whole world, that is word for word from the Jerusalem Talmud and dont use wikipedia as your source, another example is Chabad an evil Jewish lot, worships their rabbi like jesus and write on their skullcap that thier rabbi has ressurected, they are the most popular hassidic cult)

      • StanleyT

        Hang on a minute, mate. Xtians believe in Christ, Jews do not. So you seem to be getting horribly worked up about a whole lot of nothing. You also don’t understand a darn thing about Chabad. Relax, man, the only person you’re upsetting is yourself.

        • Cristinascar

          You are just wrong, Christ had no meaning in Greek until again, what should have been a meaningless powerless tiny people used the term, there is no Christ in Greek Mythology, Christ is only a Jewish concept, you will lie, it will remain a concept from the Jews.

          I understand Habad better than you ever will, Philistine.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            Oh you mean the Christ is a Jewish concept?
            You mean the Meschiach no?
            You are utterly mistaken. The Jewish concept of the Meschiach is not a saviour that comes to release humanity from sin, or a part of the deity,
            Meschiach is simply a human being, no more and no less.

            The Christian idea of what the Messias is has nothing to do with the jewish concept of the messianic age nor with the jewish concept of the Meschiach.

      • fadestyle

        Brother in the new covenant… Christians didnt take anything from Jews… they only receive the grace given to them by the Heavenly Father. Jews… or should i say Hebrews, since Jews were only one of the 12 tribes of Israel just have not received the new covenant of grace yet. read your bible, they eventually come around.

        • StanleyT

          Uh oh, now you and I are going to have a problem. I don’t care what you call us, we call ourselves Jews. You can nit pick all you like about “Hebrews” vs. “Jews”. Knock yourself out.
          As for receiving “the new covenant of grace”, I am tempted to tell you what you can do with that, but out of respect, I will not. Your messiah did not fulfill the biblical prophesies. He was not, and never will be, the Jewish Messiah. Fuggedaboutit!

          • fadestyle

            its not my Prophesy brother… take that up with Yahovah. as far as Jews go, um… Jews come from Yudah.

          • StanleyT

            It is not the prophecy of my G0d. You can believe whatever you want, I really don’t care. Just have the decency not to tell me what you think I should believe.

          • fadestyle

            why do you spell God funny?

          • StanleyT

            Because we do not take the Lord’s name in vain.

          • fadestyle

            thats not his “name”

          • StanleyT

            Exactly. I would never write His name.

          • fadestyle

            then why spell God weird?

          • StanleyT

            Because I will not take His name in vain.

          • fadestyle

            um.. we went over that…. its not his name.

          • StanleyT

            Because I will not write His name.

          • fadestyle

            then why spell God weird? didnt i ask that before?

          • StanleyT

            Asked and answered, again and again. I cannot help it if you don’t understand. It’s not my job to educate you.

          • fadestyle

            so you are saying that in the Hebrew written Torah when Moshe asked our Heavenly Father what his name is the Creator of the Universe said “God” so in order to not use it uselessly you decide to spell it weird?

          • StanleyT

            G0d has many names. Live with it.

          • fadestyle

            not according to Moshe written in the Torah. he may have many “titles” but only ONE name. it is sanctified, holy and we ARE to use it properly.

          • StanleyT

            Actually, no, we are NEVER to use the Lord’s name, and certainly not to take it in vain.

          • fadestyle

            could you please show me in scripture where we are forbidden to USE and i do not mean to uselessly use or the word vein would not have been used.

          • StanleyT

            Maybe this will help you, from Chabad:

            We do not write G-d’s name in a place where it may be discarded or erased. Treating G-d’s name with reverence is a way to give respect to G-d. So even though on a computer the name is not really being erased (and perhaps is not really there in the first place), and “G-d” is only an English term used to translate G-d’s holy name, it is in keeping with this respect that I write “G-d” in my emails and on-line articles.

          • StanleyT

            Here’s more:

            In Jewish thought, a name is not merely an arbitrary designation, a random combination of sounds. The name conveys the nature and essence of the thing named. It represents the history and reputation of the being named.

            This is not as strange or unfamiliar a concept as it may seem at first glance. In English, we often refer to a person’s reputation as his “good name.” When a company is sold, one thing that may be sold is the company’s “good will,” that is, the right to use the company’s name. The Hebrew concept of a name is very similar to these ideas.

            An example of this usage occurs in Ex. 3:13-22: Moses asks God what His “name” is. Moses is not asking “what should I call you;” rather, he is asking “who are you; what are you like; what have you done.” That is clear from God’s response. God replies that He is eternal, that He is the God of our ancestors, that He has seen our affliction and will redeem us from bondage.

            Another example of this usage is the concepts of chillul Ha-Shem and kiddush Ha-Shem. An act that causes God or Judaism to come into disrespect or a commandment to be disobeyed is often referred to as “chillul Ha-Shem,” profanation of The Name. Clearly, we are not talking about a harm done to a word; we are talking about harm to a reputation. Likewise, any deed that increases the respect accorded to God or Judaism is referred to as “kiddush Ha-Shem,” sanctification of The Name.

            Because a name represents the reputation of the thing named, a name should be treated with the same respect as the thing’s reputation. For this reason, God’s Names, in all of their forms, are treated with enormous respect and reverence in Judaism.

            There’s a lot more on this subject here:

            http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/name.html

          • fadestyle

            i am not interested in any writings except for the Tanak brother. please limit all sources to such. you should finish out the rest of the verses
            here is both Hebrew and English. Exo 3:14 ויאמרH559 said אלהיםH430 And God אלH413 unto משׁהH4872 Moses, אהיהH1961 I AM אשׁרH834 THAT אהיהH1961 I AM: ויאמרH559 and he said, כהH3541 Thus תאמרH559 shalt thou say לבניH1121 unto the children ישׂראלH3478 of Israel, אהיהH1961 I AM שׁלחניH7971 hath sent אליכם׃H413 me unto
            Exo 3:15 ויאמרH559 said עודH5750 moreover אלהיםH430 And God אלH413 unto משׁהH4872 Moses, כהH3541 Thus תאמרH559 shalt thou say אלH413 unto בניH1121 the children ישׂראלH3478 of Israel, יהוהH3068 The LORD אלהיH430 God אבתיכםH1 of your fathers, אלהיH430 the God אברהםH85 of Abraham, אלהיH430 the God יצחקH3327 of Isaac, ואלהיH430 and the God יעקבH3290 of Jacob, שׁלחניH7971 hath sent אליכםH413 me unto זהH2088 you: this שׁמיH8034 my name לעלםH5769 forever, וזהH2088 and this זכריH2143 my memorial לדרH1755 unto all generations. דר׃H1755 unto all generations

          • fadestyle

            look up the Hebrew word for memorial. if you dont have a Hebrew dictionary or a strongs it means to “remember” unto all generations. see brother the Pharisees felt in jewish tradition the name was TOO sacred to speak or write… but if then is so how can we remember something that is stricken?

          • StanleyT

            Last point and then I really have to go. To say that you are you not interested in anything except the Tanakh is to close your mind. There are more than 3,000 years of interpretation to consider. There is much elucidation of the meaning of the words. You cannot take Torah at face value because then you miss out on volumes of hidden depth.

          • fadestyle

            i read the whole bible but was only mentioning the Tanakh because it is our common ground. you and i can only agree on the Tanakh at this point with out telling each other what he or she believes is true. that is one reason i stick to the Tanakh with you. i also read the Talmud but as far as using it for references in my life. i can show you in the talmud where Yeshuah was considered the Messiah.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            No you can’t. >All you can is taking quotes out of context.

            There is no such thing in the Torah, or the Tanach for that matter, that even mentioned something like a vicarious sacrifice.

            The Christian concept of the Messiah who is sacrificed for the sin of man is not a Jewish idea at all. It is an utterly pagan concept and has no basis in the hebrew scriptures.

          • fadestyle

            goodness… sacrifices are not Hebrew? your kidding right? christmas may be pagan but sacrifices are scriptural

          • fadestyle

            if God is only an english word title anyone could use any made up word to describe the title and have to distort it as to not offend. I read the Torah and follow the word of our Heavenly Father and take the Hebrew script translated into english very seriously and i can not find any scripture in the Torah that bans me to say or write the name in a useful way. i ask you to give me scripture from the Tanakh that explicitly forbids me to say it. i can and have given you verses that support using it.

          • StanleyT

            I am not a scholar and can only tell you what I have learned from my Rabbis. I’ve tried to give you some references here and below – that’s the best I can do.
            Now though, I have to go but I do come to this site often and will be happy to resume our discussion.
            All I ask is that you open your mind as much as you claim to have opened your heart. Your scripture tells you certain things – please have the honesty with yourself to understand why I feel it is insulting to be told that my beliefs are superseded by yours.

          • fadestyle

            I hear ya brother. i know what you are saying. we have been taught since we are kids and only know what our teachers tell us. I love our Heavenly Father and i love the Torah and i try my best to understand it completely. i suggest getting a program called E-sword and downloading the hebrew Torah into it with the strongs numbers. it will help in your studies. alot. http://www.e-sword.net

          • fadestyle

            we must all go to our Heavenly Father with an empty cup and ask HIM to fill it. it started out with me one day like this… “Heavenly Father, i dont have the answers but please show me what you love and teach me to avoid the things you hate” thanks for the comments brother. May Yah bless and keep you well.

          • fadestyle

            unless you are reading anything other than the Torah my Torah states clearly. Exo 3:13 ו:יאמר משה אל-ה:אלהים הנה אנכי בא אל-בני ישראל ו:אמרתי ל:הם אלהי אבותי:כם שלח:ני אלי:כם ו:אמרו-ל:י מה-שמ:ו מה אמר אל:הם:
            Exo 3:14 ו:יאמר אלהים אל-משה אהיה אשר אהיה ו:יאמר כה תאמר ל:בני ישראל אהיה שלח:ני אלי:כם:
            Exo 3:15 ו:יאמר עוד אלהים אל-משה כה-תאמר אל-בני ישראל יהוה אלהי אבתי:כם אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ו:אלהי יעקב שלח:ני אלי:כם זה-שמ:י ל:עלם ו:זה זכר:י ל:דר דר:

          • fadestyle

            we are supposed to use his name… just not uselessly

          • fadestyle

            its a title

          • fadestyle

            brother we are all told by the Torah to “care” I have not and can not tell you what to do with your freewill. i can and do state scriptural facts.

          • StanleyT

            You see,, there’s the problem. Your “scriptural facts” are not my scriptural facts. Devarim (Deuteronomy) 4.2: “You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor shall you subtract from it”. We believe that G0d is infallible and keeps His promises. You believe your god changed the original bible. We will never agree.

          • fadestyle

            who is telling who what they believe? did you just say “you believe”?

          • StanleyT

            You are telling me that you believe I have not “found your grace’ yet.

          • fadestyle

            I have not told you what to believe. i stated that they have not come around yet. thats a far cry from telling you what you believe. that is obviously saying that you dont believe in Grace and scripture state it will change. you will not believe or change until the hand of God saves the house of israel here in the near future according to scripture. if i had to guess it will be sometime after the prophesy of Isiah 17

          • StanleyT

            You keep saying “according to scripture” which clearly implies that this is what you believe. You believe that Jews need to be “saved” — presumably by your messiah. The problem is that your messiah does not fulfil the Jewish prophecies.
            As I’ve said already, I don’t care what you believe. You are free to believe anything you like and I will not prescribe any beliefs for you. I would greatly appreciate it if you had the same respect for me. Stop telling me what is going to happen to us according to YOUR scriptures. End of story.

          • fadestyle

            but the Torah sates we are to “care”

          • StanleyT

            Care about what? Please provide a reference so I know what you are referring to.

          • fadestyle

            are you saying that loving your Neighbor is NOT “caring” i can quote it in the Torah if you like, i would have to go pull my Torah of the top of my book shelf. do you want it in Hebrew of english?

          • fadestyle

            לא-תענה ב:רע:ך עד שקר

          • StanleyT

            You are so smart aren’t you? Now, how about instead of trying to show me up, you help us all out by giving a reference we can refer to?

          • fadestyle

            please forgive me brother. its in the commandment to love our neighbor. there are many other verses in the Torah that state we are to care. i care about you. i am part of the house of Israel and Love Yahovah with all my heart, mind and soul.

          • StanleyT

            I appreciate that. However, where I have trouble is when I feel that you and your fellow evangelicals are telling me that I’m not yet in a state of grace because I don’t believe what you believe. As I’ve already stated, I don’t care what you believe (Judaism clearly states that EVERYONE has a path to G0d and that you do not have to be Jewish). All I ask for is the same respect in return.

          • fadestyle

            i am not “evangelical” i am just a person that resides in the House of Israel and loves our Heavenly Father with all my heart mind and soul. i do believe in Grace and the new covenant. grace does not throw out the Torah or the Law. the law lives in our heart and mind. Read Jeremiah 31:31-33
            if we have love for God do we forget him on the 7th day?
            if we love our Parents do we dishonour them?
            if we love our bodies, do we harm it with unclean foods?
            if we love our Spouse do with sleep with the neighbors spouse… and so on. with love we follow the law.
            WITH MUCH RESPECT AND LOVE BROTHER.

          • Gettingby

            Love does nor dishonor others…Whether a Jew decides to live as prescribed under Mosaic law or not is their business, as a self proclaimed Christian yours is to live as prescribed by Christ. Love God, love others, try to be holy and God will tend to the hearts and minds of others as He sees fit.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            Oh you do not speak hebrew? How come that you are an expert on Jewish scriptures without understanding them?

          • fadestyle

            bless you

          • Lanna

            The laws of God were the word from God’s commands. These laws were the word of God, and they are complete. How could any human being with limited wisdom and knowledge edit God’s perfect laws? To add to the laws would make them a burden, to subtract from the laws would make them incomplete. The Bible warns us not to follow those who teach false doctrines. Romans 16:17. False doctrine mishandles scripture in one of two ways: either it denies its truth or it distorts the meaning. Like you said in Deuteronomy 4:2…… and also Proverbs 30:5-6, Revelation 22:18-19. I’ve noticed those false doctrines on many websites. Many people profess respect for the bible but deny those parts that do not fit their views. Theological liberalism, which teaches that most or all of the miraculous elements of the Bible’s history are myths or legends, are quoting false doctrines.

          • fadestyle

            thank you for your scriptural post Lanna unfortunately Mr Stan does not observe new testament scripture.

          • Lanna

            Yes, they only believe what they want to believe, not the Bible….

          • Gettingby

            God in his own time will set all things right. Creating enmity between Christians and Jews by trying to convert them is wrong.
            Christ said “No man can come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw him [or her].” John 6:44

          • fadestyle

            mark 16:15

          • Lanna

            Jesus of Nazareth was of the tribe of Judah, which is linked to King David, Abraham, and Moses…Matthew 1:1-2 HIs name was given to Mary by an angel of God, Jesus, (Yeshua) in Hebrew means “The Lord Saves.” Christ is the term that identifies him as the “Anointed One.” Mary and Joseph raised Jesus according to the cultural and spiritual traditions of Jewish society. Judaism was the only faith on the face of the earth during the life of Jesus that believed in an Omnipotent Supreme Being. The only theology God ever created was Judasim! It was the lone voice of Judaism that shouted to a pagan world saturated with polytheistic deities, “Hear O Israel, The Lord our God is One.” It was Judaism that believed that man was created in God’s image. It was Judaism that gave us the patriarchs, the prophets, the Scriptures, and the Lord. For that reason, Rabbi Jesus said, “Salvation is of the Jews. John 4:22. Every word of the new Testament verifies that Jesus, his family, and his disciples practiced traditional Judaism.

    • Cristinascar

      As far as the ancient world goes there was only one tiny , very tiny people who used the name Efraim and no other. You use that name. That tiny people who used that name had no power in the ancient world, yet for some reason you are using that tiny meaningless peopole’s name as your online name, thaey had no empire yet you are using that tiny poowerless THEN, people’s unique name as your name, Yet you are so evil and twisted to figure out a way with your words and ego to not notice that, and to take it away from them, Imagine if pooeple did a billionth of the evil you do/did to the Jews to the British, you would have been extinct 3000 years ago, and no one like you would have to lie about you.

      • StanleyT

        Or perhaps his Mom and Dad named him efraim.

        • fadestyle

          exactly

      • fadestyle

        who cares what his screen name is. why attack that? only debate what message he has instead of attacking the avatar name. goodness.

    • fadestyle

      you mean one believes different.

      • Lanna

        Islam believes in Allah, Mohammed, and the Koran.

      • efraim mackellar

        No.Jews believe in a god of their imagination. Muslims believe in the ancient moon god. Only Christians worship the one true God. Jesus said, “No one cometh to the Father but by me”.

        • StanleyT

          So let’s see. Jews believe in a G0d who revealed himself before 600,000 of their ancestors. That’s a heck of a lot of eye witnesses. And you say “a god of our imagination”??? I will not insult you by pointing out why I don’t accept your religion. Kindly have the same respect.

          • efraim mackellar

            Jews believe in a god whom they have cobbled together from the Torah and man-made traditions. They rejected, and crucified, Jesus Christ for claiming to be God and the messiah. Where exactly was THEIR respect ?

          • StanleyT

            If you are back to us being your christ killer then I have no interest in engaging with you. Thank you and good bye.

          • efraim mackellar

            Yes, the truth hurts. The Jews called for the execution, indeed crucifixion, of Jesus, and had him handed over to the Roman authorities. If you say the Jews did not kill Jesus, that is the same as saying Hitler did not exterminate the Jews, or a few million of them anyway.

          • StanleyT

            To believe what you have just stated, you have to take the word of a man who wrote 300 years after the so-called crucifixion, and who was working under the need to scapegoat the Jews because of the prevailing political circumstances.
            I would suggest you catch up to modern biblical scholarship and stop with the nonsense.
            See, this is why I told you that I have no interest in engaging with you. We are done.

          • efraim mackellar

            Brilliant, set up some false facts then split. You Jews are clever. I’ll readily admit that. But some open-ness to the truth would be helpful.

          • fadestyle

            you are suppose to support the House of Israel. stop it. causing discord is unGodly.

          • fadestyle

            stop it, you are making no fertile ground by mocking.

          • efraim mackellar

            Stop telling me what to say. Mind your own business, please. There is too much sentimentality with Christians vis a vis Jews and Israel. Also, I was not “mocking”. I was making a serious point.

          • Harald Eigerson

            The serious point is that Jesus is a Jew. Early Christians were also Jews albieit of what was then considered a heretical splinter cult. When you deny the Jewishness of Jesus you get weird paganistic pseudo Christian cults like Christian Identity.

          • sez-who

            Yeah, well, taking bits and pieces here and there out of the bible to bolster up your own prejudices isn’t too wise, either. Read the whole bible.

          • efraim mackellar

            Well, I must have read the bible from Genesis to Revelation a dozen times. I have not just read it but also studied all the best commentators and theologians. Also, I have attended church regularly for over 40 years. All in all I could teach you PLENTY about the bible, I confidently reckon. Get back to me with all your bible reading experience, and be honest, even if it means some humility !

          • John Ostrowski

            Think about what you say. Wasn’t the Crucifixion foretold in the Scriptures for the salvation of a sinning mankind ? We owe the Hebrews a big” thank you” for bringing about prophesy otherwise,.. where would the Redemption be

            ?. The Crucifixion of Jesus Christ was necessary for the redemption of mankind, including the Jew. Remember that Jesus and all his disciples were Jews , including the famous of all, Paul of Tarsus. Over the centuries, the ‘ organized” Church bastardized the Faith with the inclusion of secularism and involvement in politics ,barbarian holidays, indulgences for gifts, etc. Martin Luther recognized the corruption and therefore the Reformation. This is no secret, look it up. I am a Christian, and say to you that the Jews have been given a” bum rap”. Merry Christmas, and Happy Hanuka to you all.

          • fadestyle

            just curious where is chistmas in the bible?

          • trapper

            Christmas is the traditional way Christians celebrate the birth of Christ. So Jesus was born in the spring. So the bible does not mention Christmas. SO WHAT! This is our tradition and ritual and has been for a long long time.

          • fadestyle

            the scripture does not state the time, we can only speculate from events around the scriptures mentions and even that is shown with a speculative brush and differences in historic accounts. we dont know, but i can point you to “accepted and holy Feasts” we are suppose to observe but many new covenant believers give little credit to. look up the 7 Feasts of the Lord. those are his and he instructs us to observe them.

          • efraim mackellar

            John, there’s nothing wrong in mentioning that the Jews of Christ’s time had him killed. It is stated clearly by Peter to the Jews in the book of Acts. It was prophesied too (Isaiah 53). Some Christians try to somehow deny that but it’s a fact. However, the Jews are still beloved and remain in God’s plan. They will be brought in again. “All Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26). We must pray for their conversion.

            I don’t celebrate the pagan festival of Christmas, John. Nowhere is it called for in the scriptures. Anyway, no one

            knows when the birth of Jesus took place, certainly not in mid-winter when shepherds would not be out watching their flocks at night.

          • trapper

            Christmas is our traditional way of celebrating Christ’s birth. So it is not in the scriptures–WHO CARES. It is cemented by a thousand years of Christian tradition.

          • efraim mackellar

            Who cares ? God, that’s who ! It’s pagan, an abomination. It’s a time of fights, drunkenness and utter stupidity too.

          • fadestyle

            youre right

          • fadestyle

            you will not hear jeers from me that christmas is not in the bible, but the scripture clearly state to abhor even thousands of years of traditions of men. i know i get it, our paraents observed it, the building with a steple i belong to observes it, we attach a good cause to it, it sounds good, my fore fathers and their fore fathers observed it but if you do your own research christmas has a more sinister past besides being a tradition of men. you tube search the history of christmas. we only believe the research we do for our selves.

          • Yehuda Levi

            Thank you for being one of the only rational posts on here.

            Jews are not better than Christians and Christians are not better than Jews – we are all human beings made in G-d’s image.

            In my opinion, we believe in the same G-d but in different ways. Others may disagree – it doesn’t matter. As human beings, however, we all should be respectful of each other and concentrate on what we have in common versus what may separate us.

            Merry Christmas to Christians and Happy Hanukkah for Jews (last night)!

          • Texas Patriot

            I’ve had a great time jousting around with you, YL, but you may not be as bad as I thought. Merry Christmas and Happy Hannukkah!

          • Softly Bob

            Amen.

          • trapper

            Exactly, the Old Testament is scripture for Christians too.

          • Gettingby

            Finally some sense. ty

          • Texas Patriot

            From my perspective, Jesus was sent to reaffirm the entirety of the Law and the Prophets but also to provide a “fix” in order to help the Jews in their quest to please God. Nowadays we would easily recognize it as a software upgrade. In those days, it was regarded as blasphemy. As you say, JO, the fact that the ancient Jews failed to recognize Jesus for who he was and what he was resulted in the greatest gift imaginable to mankind as a whole! So, Merry Christmas to one and all!

          • johninohio1

            The Hebrew scriptures do not mention the crucifixion of the Messiah. Although the Christian translation of them does, or is interpreted as such. Early Christian apologists went data mining in the Hebrew scriptures to find anything that justified their doctrines about Jesus. That is probably the primary reason why the reinterpreted OT was made part of the Christian scriptures.

          • johninohio1

            It’s true that the Jewish leaders prevailed upon the Romans to execute him, since the Romans didn’t want any more trouble from rebellious Jews. But I am unaware that the leaders held a plebiscite before making their demands. I don’t believe it is fair or just to condemn all Jews for it. The vast majority of them probably didn’t even know what was going on.

          • efraim mackellar

            Well, we don’t know how many Jews acquiesced in it but we read of no uprising to protest it. Anyway, I’m out of this forum. Many of my posts are being deleted, which is not surprising since the forum is run largely by Jews such as Horowitz and Greenfield. Jews do not like too much criticism of their people. It is quite understandable. They are quite at odds with one another too. But, no one is saying all Jews are responsible for Christ’s death. However by their refusal to accept him as the messiah they are basically saying he was an impostor.

          • johninohio1

            If not all Jews are responsible for Jesus’ death, then why the hatred for all Jews? Because they think he was an imposter?!! What’s that, the first thought crime??

          • fadestyle

            Hebraic names have very original and detail meaning expressed in the beautiful language of Hebrew. You may be blown away what happens when you put all the Hebrew names and meaning in a line from Adam forward. it is inspiring and only God could have had his hand in it. please have a look here. http://www.bible-codes.org/Names-Bible-Prophecy-Code.htm

          • johninohio1

            What’s this have to do with what I wrote?
            Only God could have a hand in it? The problem with most people is that, when they encounter true human genius, for example, Beethoven or Da Vinci or Einstein, they immediately jump to the conclusion that ‘they had to be inspired by God’. I don’t question that the people who put together the Hebrew scriptures were very bright, perhaps genius’, but it doesn’t make what they wrote anything more than wishful thinking and myth. If you find beauty there, thank human genius.

          • fadestyle

            it shows the divine hand of God in the names he inspired. you cant bring in some hokey Davinci einstein bologna and ignore the names in the scripture. its ok i get it, you may not think God could do such a thing, i think its pretty neat.

          • trapper

            The death of Christ is not a tragedy–don’t you understand? It was necessary for the atonement and redemption and therefore the existence of the Christian religion.

          • johninohio1

            Well, if you see it as beneficial to mankind, then you have no reason to hate the Jews for doing it, permitting it, acquiescing in it, or being unaware of it, right?

          • fadestyle

            exactly. the devil thought he had it won with that, but is steaming with anger i bet.

          • trapper

            Of course, there could not have been Christianity without Christ being killed in the way that he was. Jews did it! So what. It had to be done for the atonement to exist. Pilate and the Sanhedrin played their roles and the new Christian religion was born.

          • fadestyle

            Believers in the new covenant should not engage that way and hope you can return to the debate. your comments are appreciated. please forgive him

          • fadestyle

            The Talmud clearly states that it was debated during that time that he was considered the Messiah but the power of the Pharisees rebuked it for it would take away the power of the fleshly priest and give it to Yeshuah. Dont harp on Stanley for something the Jews did years ago. that would be like blaming all white people today for slavery.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            As you seem to be a Talmud expert can you please state me the source where in the talmud such an statement is made.

            I read the discussion here and maybe, just for the fun of it, I should start to argue the jewish side, no?

            that way you can reconcile with your Christian brother and you both can pick on me. Because you both talk about something you have no knowledge whatsoever about.

          • fadestyle

            please forgive me if i have to pull it out and research it again.

          • MukeNecca

            If Jewish God was “cobbled together from the Torah and
            man-made traditions” then Jesus, who claimed to be the Son of God, can not possibly be any more real than the Father.

            Otherwise, Jews rejected and crucified Jesus because in
            their eyes Jesus, who was a Jew and their own, was guilty of spreading heresy and blasphemy, or treason if you want. These offences were very grave and the law, both Jewish and later on Christian, prescribed death for committing them.
            Were you at the time a Jew or Christian a few centuries later the overwhelming probability is that you wouldn’t have seen anything wrong with it, but rejoice that the
            justice has been meted out.

            I think it’s both absurd and rather malicious to attribute wickedness to Jews for crucifying Jesus without being completely sure one wouldn’t be among the cheering crowd yelling “crucify him”.

            I am Catholic but I’m gladly accepting John Paul II reminder that “Jews are our older brothers”. I think he knew what he was talking about. Not so sure about you, though

          • fadestyle

            why do Catholics pray to mary and the saints?

          • MukeNecca

            For their intercession with God.
            Otherwise what this has to do with the subject?

          • fadestyle

            in·ter·ces·sion
            ˌin(t)ərˈseSHən/
            noun
            noun: intercession
            the action of intervening on behalf of another.
            “through the intercession of friends, I was able to obtain her a sinecure”

            thank you brother/sister for your comment. can you please provide at least two witnesses of verses in the scripture that says we must pray to anything other than our Heavenly Father?

          • MukeNecca

            Exactly. You have answered your question.
            We don’t pray to God and Mary or Saints in the same way. We ask Mary and Saints to intercede with God on our behalf. Probably one should use different word than pray when we address Mary or the Saints

          • fadestyle

            i am confused as to how you say i answered my question. i asked you for verses from the bible? i really was not asking for your opinion or anyone elses on the subject. its ok if you can not find it… if it exists and i missed it i would love to stand corrected. the worst thing about a mistake is to continue with out being corrected.

          • MukeNecca

            Well, you provided a definition of “intercession”. And that is exactly what people do when “praying” to Mary. They ask for her intercession on their behalf. But I already said it.

            And no, I am not aware of a verse in the Bible you are interested in. But I really have no problem asking Mary for an intercession whether or not such a verse exist.

          • fadestyle

            should we not pray like Jesus instructed?

          • MukeNecca

            Why of course!

            But shouldn’t we be free to ask for intercession as long we are not explicitly instructed NOT to do so?

            Really, I would like to see by now a sign that you have acknowledged the fact that I see a substantial difference between praying to God and asking a favour of Mary. Now you can insist there is no difference between these two acts. But that’s a different story and I am not sure I’m terribly interested pursuing the subject here.

          • fadestyle

            Psalm 146:3

            Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

            intercede? in what? i read that Jesus is our savior and intercessor. pleae correct me if i am wrong, but all the things i have read is we are to read in HIS name and TO HIM not in her name or to her for intercession? i can not find any scripture to support it but do find scripture to not pray or trust man. there should be nothing between you and Jesus. NOTHING

          • MukeNecca

            Well, to start, Jesus is not our “intercessor”. You can’t say that he is both the intercessor AND receiver of our prayers. It doesn’t make sense to believe He will intercede on our behalf with Himself.

            However when we pray to Mary we say “pray for us”. Just like when we ask someone “please, pray for me”. When we ask Mary to pray for us in “Hail Mary” we acknowledge she is a mortal – like ourselves.
            But now, dear fadestyle, I will have to decline further exchange on the subject. Honestly, I didn’t expect to dedicate so much time for that little detail.
            Catholicism and Protestantism differ on many matters, quite a few of them more essential than the one we have discussed. But I am quite happy with the pronouncements of Catholic theologians and authorities and somehow don’t feel I am the right man to deal with your beef with Catholicism. It would be better for you to hear what they have to say.

            May you and yours have a Merry Christmas!

          • fadestyle

            thank you but i dont observe christmas.

            Jesus is our intercessor sent by the Heavenly Father. He is the only savior to pray to and to intercede for our sins according to scripture. if you have a verse that proves me wrong please correct me.

          • MukeNecca

            Thank you. Not interested. And now really goodbye.

          • fadestyle

            Bless you, it is too bad you did not take the opportunity to correct me with scripture.

          • fadestyle

            um… Mary is dead. please believe me she can not hear you. i yearn for scripture proof and or correction.

          • Gettingby

            …Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
            Romans 8:34

            “You can’t say that he is both the intercessor AND receiver of our prayers. It doesn’t make sense to believe He will intercede on our behalf with Himself.”

            So another verse that differentiates between God and Christ. Each are separate entities.

          • fadestyle

            The last time i checked the scripture we were instructed by Jesus to pray like this.

            Luke 11:1-13 (KJV)

            11 And
            it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he
            ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as
            John also taught his disciples.

            2 And
            he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,
            Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven,
            so in earth.

            3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

            4 And
            forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to
            us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

            Also take note he said Hallowed be thy NAME, not his title. God does have a name.

          • MukeNecca

            Honestly, I don’t know what is your point.

          • fadestyle

            I am hoping we can question the words of popes and hold their feet to the fire when it comes to scripture since they are men that scripture does not mention or command us to use as intercessors. i have seen many un biblical acts and wording coming from the popes it makes me wonder how some do not check into it. we are instructed to have a personal relationship with God and to put your trust in NO man.

          • John Ostrowski

            A very bad and sad tradition and corruption of the New Testament. I was taught by Jesuits, who were the first in the defense of the Catholic Church, shortly after the Reformation. The Jesuits, mainly Germanic, hailing from Luther’s home ground counter attacked and were very successful . However much evil followed and I am ashamed of having been under their tutelage.

          • efraim mackellar

            No.1. You have no right to state what I probably would have done. 2.The Jews had Jesus killed out of envy. 3. The RCC has been expert at executing “heretics”. 4. As for my “maliciousness”, well what is your explanation for that being the reason used by the RCC for persecuting Jews ? 4.JPII is reputed to have edited a virulently anti-semitic rag during WWII in Poland.

            I think you need to examine your own religion before attacking me. Pius XII loved Hitler more than he did the Jews. His silence during the holocaust is notorious.

          • fadestyle

            my grandfather told me once that even if you are right, you dont have to tell people you are. also fertile ground bears more fruit and meek as a dove. i am not judging or pulling specs from eyes but if we remind each other scripture, we can help each other in understanding scripture the way the Messiah wants us to view it.

          • MukeNecca

            What? Have I attacked you by trying to be fair to Jews???

            Oh boy, to be paranoiac is one thing. But even paranoia
            needs at least some kind of logical consistency before it can be interesting. You will have problem finding a good shrink.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            There is an easy way to find out just how wrong your self-made theology really is.

            If the torah is wrong than christianity is wrong. However, if the new testament is wrong the torah can still be true.

            Without the hebrew scriptures, they call the old testament, Christians have nothing to place their beliefs on.

            So before you come up with ludicrous statements, why don’t you start reading the Torah from start to end before you make any comments.

            If you do, as many of your christian brothers have done, you will laugh and be ashamed about your silly remarks,

          • efraim mackellar

            Friend, it is YOU who has come up with “ludicrous statements”, not me. Where exactly did I say the torah is wrong ? Go one, quote me. Also, my theology conforms to orthodox evangelical reformed theology. It is certainly not “self-made”.

            I think you need to get your facts straight before you post in future.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            I am not so sure that most evangelical theologies would agree with your point of view, I was an evangelical Christian who had studied the new testament intensely before I “got it straight” as you call it.

            However it seems to no avail in discussing with another Jew hater.

          • efraim mackellar

            So you WERE an evangelical Christian, but you got it straight. What exactly does getting it straight mean as far as you are concerned, because I am having serious doubts about you.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            You can sure live with your doubts about me,

          • efraim mackellar

            Is that how you back your opinions up ? How feeble.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            No this is how I end useless debates.

          • efraim mackellar

            No it’s not.It’s how you flee when you know you can’t win the debate.

          • fadestyle

            amen

          • trapper

            Yes, the torah and the rest of the old testament are Christian scriptures too. I can’t believe that someone would deny that!

      • John Ostrowski

        No , we mortals have a fetish for celebration and anything else to make ourselves feel relevant.– goes back to our Pagan days…….genes.

        • fadestyle

          i hear ya.

    • jarhead1969

      Let me also say that Catholics and Protestants also, do not believe in the same God, but that Protestantism, which began in the 16th, century with the “deformation” or rejection of what the Apostles and Christ taught, for their own personal interpretations, certainly are different deities. Protestantism has now fractured into over 800 different sects and heretical faiths.

      • efraim mackellar

        No, you are quite mistaken. Romanism is just Christianized paganism. Protestantism took us back to the plain scriptures.

        • John Ostrowski

          I deeply concur with your plainly truthful statement . Look it up folks.It’s the truth.

      • fadestyle

        one major reason you need not a building with a steeple to have a relationship with God

    • Gettingby

      I don’t care if you are a fellow Christian you’re statement that Jews and Christians don’t worship the same God is BS. Jews reject Christ as their Messiah; Christians accept him as their Messiah. Such a ludicrous statement could only come from someone who believes God and Christ are the same being.

      “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Matthew 24:36

      Please explain how the Son (Jesus) doesn’t know and The Father (GOD) does if they are one and the same.

  • notme123

    allah is satan.

  • Lanna

    The Great I Am, Adonai, (God is the Master and Majestic Lord. Elohim…The All Powerful Creator…. Our total authority.) The All knowing Omnipresent God, who is everywhere rules heaven and earth, and he rules over men and the elements, and seasons.

    • StanleyT

      Respect please. We do not take the Lord’s name in vain, which means we do not write it out the way you have.

      • fadestyle

        Brother please ask the question why is the word “vain” used?

        Exo 20:7 לאH3808 Thou shalt not תשׂאH5375 take אתH853 שׁםH8034 the name יהוהH3068 of the LORD אלהיךH430 thy God לשׁואH7723 in vain; כיH3588 for לאH3808 will not ינקהH5352 hold him guiltless יהוהH3068 the LORD אתH853 אשׁרH834 that ישׂאH5375 taketh אתH853 שׁמוH8034 his name לשׁוא׃H7723 in vain.

        what does the Hebrew word for vain mean?
        H7723
        שׁו שׁואo
        shâv’ shav
        shawv, shav
        From the same as H7722 in the sense of desolating; evil (as destructive), literally (ruin) or morally (especially guile); figuratively idolatry (as false, subjectively), uselessness (as deceptive, objectively; also adverbially in vain): – false (-ly), lie, lying, vain, vanity.

        if vain was not used then i would say we cant say it. but the scripture says dont use it in vain… meaning in english, uselessly.

        What are the pharisees are missing? that word “vain”? i agree we should treat it with the greatest respect but the Torah tells us to “memorial” to remember with all of our generations. so the traditions of men have claimed the name of God is too sacred to speak or write… well then how are we to remember it if it is completely stricken?

        we are not to add or subtract from the scripture and when we start referencing other sources we are “adding” take scripture very serious and literal. anything other than scripture is OPINION of man.

        • StanleyT

          Please stop calling me “Brother”. I am not your brother and will never be your brother as your beliefs are nothing like my beliefs. I find it ironic that you dismiss thousands of years of Rabbinic interpretation of the Torah, yet you wholeheartedly accept entire volumes of additions to the word of G0d as originally handed down to the Jewish people.

          As I’ve said before, I have no problem with your beliefs and support your right to believe them. I do not think you need to adopt my beliefs in order to be accepted by G0d, yet you believe I can never be in a state of grace unless I adopt your beliefs. I find that highly insulting.

          • fadestyle

            with all respect and love we are all brothers whether you like or agree. i dismiss most things from opinions of other men and rely on my personal relationship with our Heavenly Father and the scripture HE provided. he is my teacher, he is my everything. I put my trust in NO that means NO man period. if you are insisting thousands of years of Rabbinic interpretation then why ala-carte those interpretations? why ignore the fact that proof of the Messiah is written in the talmud? why ignore original hebrew manuscripts of Isaiah 53 or is it that what we are taught to believe what men say that we fail to do the research our self or come to our Heavenly Father our self?

          • StanleyT

            Here you go, all the explanation for why I do not accept your Messiah. Now stop insulting me and every other believing Jew with your evangelical garbage. I’ve tried to be polite to you and I’ve asked you for respect, but you are so brainwashed and so insistent on pushing your point of view that you will not listen. Hence my change in tone.

            Read and LEARN:

            http://jewsforjudaism.org

          • fadestyle

            insulting you…? i have not taken away anything or said that the God you believe in is wrong or fake but you insist to state my God/Messiah is fake? i have stated but you may have missed it i am not evangelical. I reside in the House of Israel and love God with all my heart mind and everything. i believe in the Creator of this universe and the laws of the Torah. if it is in the scripture i observe it out of love.

          • StanleyT

            You have said that I and others like me are not “yet” in a “state of grace” and you have argued with my unwillingness to accept that your messiah is the one prophesied in the Torah. That is insulting. And your constant protestations of love may make you feel better, but I find them patronizing. I do not know you, do not love you and do not need to be loved by you.

            I resisted pointing you to the Jews for Judaism website because I have no desire to disabuse you of your beliefs. However, I will say that I don’t understand what you mean by “residing in the house of Israel”. You cannot be Jewish and believe in Jesus. That’s an oxymoron. For proof, check out that website – but I do warn you: it will make you question everything you currently believe (and I have no need nor desire to convert you to my way of thinking.)

          • StanleyT

            Sorry – corrected in edit mode – you cannot be Jewish and believe in Jesus.

          • fadestyle

            where does the scripture state that?

          • StanleyT

            The Scripture clearly states what will happen when the Messiah comes (the real one). Jesus did not fulfill any of the prophecies (we don’t see any lions lying down with lambs or spears being beaten into ploughshares, to name just two). Scripture also clearly states “You shall have no other god before me”. Clearly, by insisting that you can only reach G0d through Jesus, you are placing another god before Him.

            If you refer to the Jews for Judaism website, you will also discover that the whole notion of the Messiah being the son of G0d is completely antithetical to Judaism.

            And the reason I get angry with you is because you are NOT allowing me to believe what I believe. You keep insisting that what you believe is right – whereas all I’m saying is that while it may be right for you, it is not right for me.

            This all started with your claim that the “Hebrews” (not the Jews – you had the gall to insist that you know better than we do what we should call ourselves) are not “yet” in a “state of grace”. I have repeatedly told you that this is why I am angry with you. You have not responded to this at all, instead throwing out a whole pile of other stuff. Enough.

          • fadestyle

            did you say “Jesus did not fulfill any of the prophecies”?
            i can name them and give you the scripture book chapter and verse. i have them right here:

            1
            Messiah would be born of a woman.
            Genesis 3:152
            Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
            Micah 5:23
            Messiah would be born of a virgin.
            Isaiah 7:144Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis12:3
            5
            Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac.
            Genesis 17:196
            Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob.
            Numbers 24:177Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10
            8Messiah would be heir to King David’s throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13
            9Messiah’s throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7
            10
            Messiah would be called Immanuel.
            Isaiah 7:1411
            Messiah would spend a season in Egypt.
            Hosea 11:112A massacre of children would happen at Messiah’s birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15

            I KNOW OF MORE THAT 30 MORE WOULD YOU LIKE THEM AND ALL OF THEM IN THE TANAKH

          • StanleyT

            the only problem is that you are using mistranslations. Nowhere – anywhere – in the Tanakh does it say that the Messiah will be born of a virgin. It says he will be born of a young woman.

            Here’s a whole lot more for you:

            http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/counter-missionary-2/answers-2/jesus/why-dont-jews-see-jesus-in-the-scriptures/

          • fadestyle

            How about i show you the scripture verse here.

            Isa 7:14 לכןH3651 Therefore יתןH5414 shall give אדניH136 the Lord הואH1931 himself לכם אותH226 you a sign; הנהH2009 Behold, העלמהH5959 a virgin הרהH2030 וילדתH3205 and bear בןH1121 a son, וקראתH7121 and shall call שׁמוH8034 his name עמנו אל׃H6005 Immanuel.

            I see you cant read Hebrew so i included english with strongs numbers.

          • StanleyT

            I have already explained – the word “virgin” is a mistranslation.

            Please read this:

            http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/counter-missionary-2/texts/isaiah-714-a-virgin-birth/

          • fadestyle

            is born of a virgin less than a miracle regardless if its prophesy? goodness.

            the fact is the hebrew word is עלמה and that means VIRGIN

          • StanleyT

            You haven’t read my link. The Hebrew word Almeh is “young woman”, as can clearly be seen from the other contexts in which it appears.

            As you refuse to consult my link, I’ll quote the relevant part for you:

            The Hebrew bible has a completely different word for virgin. The specific hebrew word is (Betulah – בְּתּוּלָה). This word has no masculine form and indicates the physical sexual status of a woman. It is always translated as “virgin.” For example:

            “the girl was very beautiful, a virgin (בְּתּוּלָה), and no man had had any relations with her” Genesis 24:16
            “I took the women, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin (בְּתּוּלָה)”
            Deut 22:14
            “And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh 400 young virgins that had known no man.” Judges 21:12

          • fadestyle

            Sir, i have gone to your link. i see too much opinion and explanations in between verses as to what the author of that site thinks and not enough scripture. there is too much of “I THINK or I THINK THAT” God is not an author of confusion that i need thousands of years of men to tell me how to understand it. im just a stupid Farm boy grew up in the country and love to listen and have a wonderful relationship with Yahovah. He loves me and i love talking about him.

          • StanleyT

            See, just calling G0d by that name tells me that you and I will never agree.

            You have absolutely no understanding of Judaism, which is based on delving deeply into every single word, every nuance of the Torah in order to interpret it. You want things to be easy and on the surface, but they are not. You dismiss thousands of years of Jewish insight and intelligence and often sheer brilliance because … well, maybe you’re just scared of it.

            This discussion is pointless. I have no need or desire to change your mind and you will never change mine. I’m done.

          • fadestyle

            i disagree. God is NOT the author of confusion and making things harder than what they are give things meanings that are not there. there are no secret meanings. there doesnt need to have collage degrees to understand the bible. God wants the everyday carpenter, farmer, Shepard boy and laborer to receive and understand the scripture. telling me other wise allows for the insertion of know it all teacher that only hold all the answers to give you so you cant have a close and personal relationship with God. Rabbis are just as bad as the christian pope. its ridiculous. think for your self and have a personal relationship its much more rewarding.

          • StanleyT

            If you believe that there are no hidden depths in the Torah, you are missing unbelievable depth, wisdom, insights and knowledge. The Torah is the Book of Life for Jews, it provides instruction on how to live morally, ethically and well – and it requires experience and knowledge to interpret it.

            As for the relationship between the individual Jew and G0d, nothing can possibly be more personal. We believe that G0d is involved in every aspect of our lives, every second of every minute. We have only to open our eyes to see the miracles being wrought on our behalf. And we have a direct line to G0d, with no need for anyone to intercede between Him and us.

            I will say no more. You and I will never agree and I think we should leave it there.

          • fadestyle

            since the temple is gone how do you all clean up your sins?

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            You don’t understand the concept of sin and you don’t understand the concept of Korbanot(which as there is no better word is translated as sacrifice).

          • fadestyle

            Thank you for telling me what i know and dont know. korban (קָרְבָּן) whether for an animal or other offering.
            Various words are used in the Torah. Their exact meaning can vary. The most common usages are animal sacrifice (zevah זֶבַח), peace offering and olah “burnt offering.” In Hebrew korban is used for a variety of sacrificial offerings described and commanded in the Torah.

            I own at least two Hebrew Tanakhs, multiple Torahs, the Talmud, scripture in both hebrew and greek, multiple sets of historical biblical encyclopedias to expand my studies and understanding of the Word of God. I belong to no group organization with a steeple and i am very happy having a personal and close relationship with our Heavenly Father. I know exactly what is in the Law and what SIN is and you still did not answer my question on how do you atone your sin.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            Sorry I might have been a bit rough.

            Atonement for sins is and has always been repentance (Tshuva).
            In case of unintentional sins and if a temple exists and can be accessed there are korbanot, depending on your abilities they could be a sheep or goat, a pair of doves, flour or even a libation.

            The Christian idea of sin can not be extracted from anything in the hebrew scriptures.

            Chet(hbr. sin) means missing the mark. You repent (retarget) and try better next time.

            It is like you are out with your buddies and promised your spouse to be at home before midnight. Eventually you show up 3 in the morning.

            What do you do? You promise to be in time next time for your spouse to forgive you. And you better convince her you have remorse.

            It won’t hurt if you bring some flowers. Carbonate are like these flowers. They are not the essence they are to show your devotion besides your remorse.

            Just bringing flowers won’t suffice. Not for your spouse and not for HaShem.

          • fadestyle

            I forgive you. regardless if you believe what i believe i still consider you my internet Neighbor and i love my neighbor.

          • fadestyle

            lol yes you are right, you better come home with flowers and not a 6 pack. i laughed a bit over that image. thank you.

          • fadestyle

            why have an “ism” at the end of what you believe? why not just “believe” why is it not called the “faith of Abraham” why cant you just be a Torah observer or a Child of God or something else that tries to make what you believe more important than what you are? Just be your own person and have a relationship Mr Stanley. putting an “ism” at the end of what you believe doesnt make it more righteous.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            Because you have a brain.

            Hashem doesn’t ask us to “just believe”.

            He asks us to trust,learn, encounter, weigh and understand as much as every single person can,

            Christianity on the other hand is the “just believe and you are saved” cult.

            Christians need the concept of the primordial sin to provide a Messiah that comes as a sacrifice for that sin.

            Nothing like that is ever written in the Jewish scriptures,
            Quite in contrast, sin, in jewish understanding, is not a inheritance, like a genetic disease, but to miss the mark, which is the meaning of the hebrew word chet (sin).

            No human being ever is born with sin on his/her shoulders.
            Sin is the outcome of a deed. Not Adams or Eves deed but everyones own deed.

          • fadestyle

            even if the definition of a young woman is true the prophesy is still fulfilled.

            just a quick question for non Messiah/Yeshuah folks: if the Temple has not existed for along time… and you all dont believe in the washing of your sins through Yeshuah… um how are you all getting your sins taken care of? i mean there is no temple so how are you all cleaning up? sounds like you are in big trouble if you dont start doing some sacrifices.

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            Sure even if you are right you are wrong

          • fadestyle

            so how do you receive atonement for your Chet or missing the mark?

          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            Alma can mean both to be specific.

            However the issue is context again. The whole passage has no reference to the Messiah at all.

          • fadestyle

            then why mention it in the scripture? it was mentioned for a reason so it could be recognized as part of prophesy. ignoring it is to your peril.

          • fadestyle

            even if you exhaust the argument into your favor over the virgin birth you ignore the other 9 i post and i have over 30 more, are you interested?

          • StanleyT

            I don’t have time to refer you to every single debunking of your “proofs” provided at Jews for Judaism – and you would reject it anyway.
            I think we have reached the end of our discussion.

          • fadestyle

            how about you bring the discernment God gave you instead of pointing to the talking points of another author. i show you strongs numbers and definitions. i show you hebrew masoretic text and show you scripture but you ignore it all and choose to show me talking points of someone else? come on think for your self. when i look up those hebrew words i dont find the talking points you show me. i am sure Rabbis use and ignore “hebrewisms” at their convenience.

          • StanleyT

            Wow – you really have a problem with me using references. What’s wrong, do those references scare you?

          • fadestyle

            the way i see it is there seems to be way too much opinion and defensive commentary over debunking he is Messiah.

          • fadestyle

            so you are saying the masorites wrote in the wrong hebrew word?

          • StanleyT

            Most important of all, nowhere in the Tanakh does it say anything about a “second coming”. The real Messiah will fulfill all the prophecies the first time around.

          • fadestyle

            One of the most important Old Testament prophecies concerning the return
            of Christ and the reestablishment of Israel is found in Ezekiel 37-39. In chapter 37, we have an account of the nation of Israel being resurrected, and, without falling into the trap of eisegesis

            if Jews missed the above prophesy and the rest of the first prophesies why would you see signs or prophesies for the second one? and since you missed the first one you throw out the prophesies for the second. its written in Isaiah 17 and you will see. Prophesy states Jews will come full circle. its not my Prophesy so take it up with God. i am not here to judge but to blow the shofar… if you hear not my hands are clean. Yah bless you sir.

          • StanleyT
          • fadestyle

            there is so much propaganda on that site. goodness. those are serious talking points. i dont remember giving you one single link and only refer to scripture and use the common ground available to us. many people like your self ignore the fulfilled prophesy only because you are told. i would have taken you more serious if you would have told me some of those points of views your self. then i would have thought you gave it more critical thinking.

          • StanleyT

            I see. So anything you don’t like is “propaganda” – and yet you do not rely on the original Hebrew of the texts you keep referring to, but on translations of it (which I have demonstrated are mistranslations). And now you tell me you would only take me seriously if I ignored thousands of years of Jewish scholarship and arrived at my own conclusions. Well you know what? I’m not that arrogant. I defer to those who know a lot more than I do and I have no problem referring you to them. If you don’t like it, that’s your problem.
            I think we have reached the end of any usefulness in this discussion.

          • fadestyle

            i use the same masoretic text you do.

          • StanleyT

            But you mistranslate it.

          • fadestyle

            last time i checked you are the one that had problems with the Hebrew i posted?

          • StanleyT

            Not the Hebrew, the English.

          • fadestyle

            you have not proved anything… you just claim it by FIAT as if you say so. why dont you provide a source… dictionary or something because the Hebrew defining sources i have and have given you state that it is defined as a virgin.

          • fadestyle

            the link you post is full of opinion but limited scripture source. this isnt about what man thinks.

            off your website. “Christians wait in vain for an expected fulfillment of messianic
            prophecies during a second coming by Jesus. Their count is off. This
            would have to refer to a third coming. The first coming covers the
            period prior to Jesus’ death and the second coming spans the period from
            his alleged resurrection to his alleged ascension.”

            wow grasping at straws to use the resurrection as the 2nd coming? thats just silly. if you and or the site does not believe in HIS resurrection then why admit to the resurrection as the 2nd coming?

          • fadestyle

            the first and final time the messiah you are talking about will he be “bruised for our iniquities”?

          • StanleyT
          • StanleyT
          • http://www.chaverimisrael.org Norbert Haag

            I especially like the first proof of Messiah being born of a woman and not a man or a wolf or whatever.

            I have never heard of any human being not born of a woman so far.

            The rest is the usual missionary stuff. As always out of context and sometimes simply false translations.

            You want proof? go to Jews for Judaism and learn it by yourself.

          • fadestyle

            Its a shame you think the Torah is funny. Messiah born of a woman instead of descending from the sky, so that if a false Messiah states he came in on a cloud would not and should not be believable. weird i had to explain that to you but hey i love warning with the shofar… my hands are clean.

          • fadestyle

            thank you for the link but Mr Stanley suggested that first. ive been there and read their material.

          • billobillo54

            Read Dr. Michael Brown’s “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus.” Every objection that Jews like Stanley T against Jesus, every one is a credential identified by a prominent Rabbi like Rashi.

          • fadestyle

            i have reviewed Michael Browns material extensively. thank you. He also covers hyper grace very well.

          • fadestyle

            i believe in what you believe plus what i believe. you keep adding such a difference i just have what has been fulfilled. feel the way you want with out my permission to, thats why its freewill. again you ignore the information from “your thousands of years of interpretations” you dont have to convince me of the Tanakh i already read it. i point to and use the Tanakh in our discussion because its common ground. the prophesies have been fulfilled in the Tanakh and i have pointed to them and you ignore them, so what have i commented out keeping to common ground that you are so angered about?

          • Lanna

            Modern science does not really prove or disprove miracles. However, history, archeology, and other social sciences have shown the New Testament to be historically accurate and reliable. The New Testament writtings were based on eye witness testimony. There are many documents from writers as early as the late first century AD which confirm various details of the New Testament accounts. The existence of many early manuscripts allows people to be confident that the New Testament was accurately copied…..more proof of the gospels about Jesus. Luke says that his gospel was based on information handed down from eyewitnesses and on his own careful investigation. Luke 1:1-4 Likewise the Gospel of John claims to be written by the very disciple whom Jesus loved, John 21:20-25.

      • Lanna

        I am doing what I’m told to do. Matt 5:1, 7:29. At the conclusion of Sermon on the Mount Jesus contrasts those that understand and do (HIS WORDS), WITH THOSE THAT DO NOT.) A wise person builds upon a Rock and endures the storms, a foolish person builds upon sand and suffers loss. Jesus declared that his followers are the light of the world. He then asks them not to hide their light, but rather put it on a stand to be effective. That means quoting his word and his authority! You are disrespecting his Greatness! I will continue to put the Words of the Wonderful and Mighty Counselor, the Eternal God, and Prince of Peace in print for all to see, that they may know he is the only true God! Isaiah 9:6

        • Lanna

          Furthermore……All scripture is God breathed and is useful in teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for ever good work. 2nd Timmothy 3:16

          • fadestyle

            amen

        • billobillo54

          Sing and praise His Name…..Yeshua…..

  • Sueb

    “The church of Christ has been founded by shedding it’s own blood, not the blood of others, by enduring outrage, not by inflicting it. Persecutions have made it grow martyrdoms have crowned it,”

    Jerome
    4th century scholar

    • billobillo54

      Defending ourselves against tyrants, torturers, rapists, thieves and murderers, who perpetrate evil in the name of god, defending ourselves and other innocents against these is a Godly and Christian duty (Romans 13).

      • Sueb

        So true billobillo54. Romans 13 has been mis-taught as Christians must to submit to any/all authority. Wrong! We are to submit to Godly authority. I don’t think Jerome was suggesting that Christians were milk toast. Christians do not just go around slaughtering people who refuse to submit to Jesus. Christians have been killed for not submitting to lesser gods and ideologies.

        • billobillo54

          Amen. Sola Fide.

      • johninohio1

        There is nothing in Romans 13 that suggests that Christians should defend themselves with acts of violence. If Paul had meant that they should, he would have said so. His comments were in reference to benign governments, and to ignore the abundance of malevolent or merely corrupt governments was, to my mind, an evasion of the truth. I’m more inclined to believe that this letter was meant primarily for the eyes of the rulers or their minions, as an antidote to any accusations that Christians were a threat to the ruling class. They were, after all, oppressed at the time.

        • billobillo54

          Yes, Romans 13 refers to government. Government is supposed to protect the innocent and uphold justice, which, according to Romans 13, includes just violence: “the sword.” My post, using the term “ourselves” refers to a self governed people, a model largely propagated by Protestants and especially American Protestants (i.e. The United States of America). It is a mistake to use the example of Jesus and the Apostles being Jews, being oppressed, conquered and without any rights in Roman law as the model for today’s Christian in reference to government or in reference to the perpetrators of evil. When the Apostle Paul’s Roman civil rights were violated by Roman officials, he did not passively accept the abuse, he (rightly) appealed to Roman law to rectify the injustice. Furthermore, I believe it is my duty as a Christian to protect the innocent from being abused by evil people, within our current republican system of self government.

          • johninohio1

            It’s your duty as a human being to protect the innocent from being abused by evil people. Christianity, in the form it has adopted since around 200 AD, isn’t pacifist, but Jesus was. And that was because he believed the world was about to end soon, so it didn’t matter whether you, as a Christian, or your family, were martyred for ‘his sake’. God was going to make everything right for the faithful in the next life or in the present life when he established his earthly kingdom. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out that way. That’s why Christians who know scripture, and take it seriously, are always in a quandary about ‘returning evil for evil’ (i.e., all forms of violent self defense).

          • billobillo54

            Jesus knew the eschatological picture. When He ascended the disciples, being Jews who understood the importance of Israel in the eschatological scheme asked Him if He would restore the kingdom to Israel. Jesus told them this was not for them to know, but since He is and was YHWH, the Second Person of the Trinity, He knew that this was not the time. The prohibition against revenge is for us in our personal lives and is not applicable to government. As Romans 13 states: “He (i.e. the King) does not bear the sword in vein. He is God’s minister…” Sola Fide.

          • johninohio1

            “The prohibition against revenge is for us in our personal lives and is not applicable to government.”

            First, I wasn’t talking about revenge, but about violence in self defense.

            Second, nothing in the NT says a Christian has the right to oppose government or any other evil force in a violent manner. You’re assuming that it is implied because not doing so would be unthinkable, since it would likely lead to the demise of Christianity. If the Christian nations hadn’t opposed Mohammed and his hoards in 1683, Christianity would have been crushed into a tiny minority in Europe just as it had already been in the middle east.

            “As Romans 13 states: “He (i.e. the King) does not bear the sword in vein. He is God’s minister…””
            This makes sense only when you remember that the infant Christian movement had to avoid saying anything that was either threatening toward or critical of the governments they found themselves under. To do so would have led to their eradication.

          • billobillo54

            You make several great points Bro. The most insightful is the recognition of the thoroughly politically disenfranchised position the ancient Christians were in within the Roman Empire and how it may have influenced the writers of the Epistles. However, once the government is built on a Christian consensus or on a Christian King, and if, as in our American case, the foundation of just government flows from the consent of the governed who possessed a Biblical Christian consensus, then the government can and must take revenge (i.e. punish the guilty or use violence to protect the innocent). The Second Amendment’s guarantee of the right of the militia to bear arms for their own defense also justifies Americans the right, under Godly and just government, to protect themselves from abusers (e.g. Islam, the body of antichrist).

  • Texas Patriot

    I do not think we should necessarily doubt that Muslims worship and follow some spiritual being. It is hard to imagine that their extreme zealotry for Jihad could be inspired in any other way. However, I do not think we should necessarily assume that the being they worship and follow is the God of Abraham. It is entirely possible that Muslims have been deceived:

    And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

    2 Corinthians 11:14-15

    • MukeNecca

      I do not think we should necessarily doubt that Muslims worship and follow some spiritual being.

      That is beyond the doubt. After all Satan is a spiritual being.

      • fadestyle

        amen to that

      • Texas Patriot

        It would explain a lot of things:

        You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

        John 8:44

        • MukeNecca

          It certainly does explain a lot of things.

  • Robert Veklotz

    There is a definite difference between becoming a Christian fundamentalist and a Muslim fundamentalist as taught in the Bible and the Koran. As stated in this article it is OK for a Muslim fundamentalist to kill non-Muslims based on Koranic teaching, yet the Bible teaches to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Quite a fundamental difference.

    • fadestyle

      please correct me if i am wrong but i believe the only time the bible says striking down a person so that he dies is only acceptable if they are robbing your house. other than that we are to sell our cloak, buy a sword and provide for our family or we are worse than an infidel.

      • Robert Veklotz

        It comes down to self-defense being allowed but murder is not. Thou shalt not kill (murder).

  • USARetired

    Islam is not a legitimate religion as it was created by mortals with sick minds ! It cannot exist lawfully along side Christians, or in a democratic society! That said, they can only legally live in a Muslim society!

  • YoshiNakamura

    Excellent article! Thank you, Dr. Kirby!

    The Islamic sources are the most authoritative in answering any question concerning Islam.

    In addition, we should note that many English translations of the Koran, approved by Islamic religious authorities, use the Arabic “Allah” instead of the English “God”.

    We should also note that the Moslem-majority country, Malaysia, has explicitly forbidden its Christians from referring to God by the Arabic word “Allah” which is reserved for Muslims.

    This all indicates that the Moslems, themselves, do not believe that we worship the same god.

  • Hard Little Machine

    I am unconcerned with Muslim deity or the scope and concepts embracing it. I simply do not care and am uninterested in Karen Armstrong-like efforts to make it soft and squishy and cute. Maybe it is, maybe it’s not. Whatever the case, ‘man is unknowable’ as they say and all we have to go on is the world available to the 5 senses around us.

  • Bellerophons_Revenge

    The “Judeo-Christian” god is not the same for all Jews and Christians. The god of ancient Israel commanded the mass murder of Midianites making an exception only for young virgins whom the commanders of the Israelite forces could “keep for themselves”. No modern Jews or Christians would accept this kind of barbarism.

    The Christian god of the eighteenth and early nineteenth century sent plagues to punish blasphemers, idolators and other sinners. So ingrained was this belief that vaccination was vehemently opposed by many pastors and ministers. Any modern minister who took this position would be vilified in no uncertain terms as was Jerry Falwell for suggesting that God had “removed his hand of protection” from the Twin Towers allowing Muslim fanatics to kill thousands of innocent people.

    When looking at the gods worshiped by modern Christians, Jews and Muslims we see in the Muslim a god one closer to the god worshiped by the ancients than the one worshiped by modern Christians. Islam never experienced the Renaissance or the Enlightenment which created a far more benevolent god, than the Old Testament that slaughtered his creations with abandon.

    Modern Islamists still worship the monstrous god of mankind’s ancient brutal past making them anachronistic barbarians who cruelly slaughter “infidels” as did their ancestors.

    • Cristinascar

      There is only one moment in the Jewish prayers, where Jews bow (prostrate) themselves, this is the same moment the High Priest in the first temple would enter the Holy of Hollies, for that event in Synagaugue in the world for at least 2800 years, and the the holiest Jewish prayer… “God, God Lord is Mercy, and Kindness, Grace, Slow-To-Anger, Majority-Kindness and Honesty, Emenates Kindness, For the Millions, Erases Sin, Erases Mistakes, Erases Loss of Control, VeNakeh (And all is made Clean, or just Cleaned, or He Cleans). Christians retained the holiest Jewish prayer, with the concept of Grace, Caatholics with Hail Marys and confession (before the prayer was said the Jews would say confessions ‘Vidui’ and tahanoon), and Jews retained it by saying the words of the prayer on yom kippur in hebrew, while prostrated. Muslims took this prayer, and is where they stole the whole concept that their god is merciful from , their prior moon god was not as interested in mercy as the revamped allah moon god of war. Jews consider this the only actual description of God that exists, aka his Midote.

      The Moabites did not give shelter to the Jews and stabbed them in the back, the ews used their theory God to justify a polical war of survival, as though a Priest can not be King there was no real seperation of Church and State, and everything was defined through the thoery of God, the Midianites were killed in what was the rules of desert war at the tiem, like they killed us. Not disagreeing with you, but there was no concept of rules of war.

      But further you can find interesting quotes in the Hebrew texts that are more benevolent than definitlely what you see in the Middle East of the time, but even than the Greeks and Romans, for example murder is not a crime in Roman law (one study on this
      Murder Was Not a Crime: Homicide and Power in the Roman Republic By Judy E. Gaughan), some examples are, “Nation shall not lift a sword against nation, neither should they study war amongst themselves anymore” “Turn their swords into plowshares” “The God of Israel is a God for all Peoples (goyim)” etc.
      Moses married a Midianite, and Isaac and the children of Jakob married mainly Labanites.

  • SteveMGD

    This is a seriously flawed argument which lacks even rudimentary logic. None of the passages quoted in the article address the identity of God; all they do is describe how he should or should not be worshiped. Jews are hated by Muslims precisely because they worship the same god but differently.

  • Fletch

    I’ve thought a lot about this, and I do not think that “Allah”, who Muslims worship, is the same God who is worshiped by the Christians and Jews. People like to say that we share the same Abrahamic god or faith. This is largely because Mohammed cribbed a lot of the religion he invented from listening to the Christians and Jews around the campfires. A few of the ethics may be similar, but ultimately they are very different; in fact, I would say that the religions of Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposed.

    Whoever it is that Muslims worship, or think they are worshiping, it is not God. It is more than likely Satan.

    That is not to say that Muslims in general are evil people. But they just don’t know who they are following.

  • Lanna

    You are telling false tales…..The message that Jesus Died for our sins ON THAT CROSS…and ROSE FROM THE GRAVE, CONQUERING DEATH AND SIN FOR US BRINGING US FORGIVENESS, A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD THE FATHER, AND THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE IS THE TRUTH…HE STAYED ON THAT CROSS BY HIS OWN WILL, AND DIED, BUT AROSE TO ETERNAL LIFE AND SO WILL HIS CHURCH, HIS BRIDE. He could have saved himself many times but bore the burden for his people! 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Acts 26: 18, Romans 6:21. Those who preach false gospels other than the Word of the True God,, let him be eternally condemned. Galations 1:6-8. I can prove everything I’m saying.

  • knowshistory

    this is so typical. faced with a real threat, islam, which has murdered millions for the glorification of allah, at the instructions of mohammed, the worst criminal that ever lived, various factions of Christians and jews get together and criticize each other. I have news for you. until humanity is somehow able to exterminate islam, and make islam a footnote like baal, zeus, or thor, there are only two religions in the world, and if you don’t belong to one, you do belong to the other. the one religion is the religion of pure evil. invented by a desert psychopath, and dedicated to the genocide or enslavement of all others. the other religion is notislam, the religion you belong to if you do not worship an evil monster and do not advocate the enslavement or death of all others. the members of the religion under attack call themselves Christians, or jews, or pagans, or Buddhists, or hindu, or atheists, and if they are going to survive the war that the religion of evil has declared against them, they had better stop attacking each other, and start expelling evil from their countries.

  • Just_me_and_God

    Moslems have made-up lies about EVERYTHING!
    The Qur’an, is considered by Moslems to be “God’s final and authoritative revelation to humankind,” it mentions Jesus (Arabic: Isa) twenty-five times. It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of a virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of “Allah” and announced to Mary (Maryam) by the Angel Gabriel (Jibral).

    The name of the “prophet” Mohammad is found in only 4 places in the Koran, but the name of Jesus is found in 25 places. The Koran gives more preference to the name of Jesus!

    According to the koran, to aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform many miracles, all by the permission of “Allah”,” rather than of his own power. But, according to the Qur’an, Another man was crucified, instead of Jesus. Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, but he did ascend into Heaven (Jannah).
    Islamic tradition and commentaries states that he will return to earth near the Day of Judgment to restore justice and defeat al-Masi ad-Dajjal (“the false messiah”, also known as the Antichrist). The Qur’an emphasizes that Jesus was a mortal human being who, like all other “Prophets”, had been divinely chosen to spread “Allah’s” message.

    Qur’an, Surah 4:
    That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of “Allah”; – but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:
    Nay, “Allah” raised him up unto Himself; and “Allah” is Exalted in Power, Wise;
    —Qur’an, Surah 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158

    According to the Qur’an: Jesus was born of a miraculous event by a virgin.
    The same Qur’an admits: Jesus’ conception and birth was performed as a miracle.
    The Koran also admits that Jesus Himself preformed many miracles and ascended into Heaven.
    Also, according to the Qur’an: Another man was crucified, instead of Jesus!
    But according to the very same Qur’an: Mohammad was BORN and DIED and is BURIED in the normal ways of all human flesh.

    [ So these Jewish fishermen, tax collectors and such, did the old switcheroo and fooled the Great Roman Army and the Sanhedrin?
    --- My, oh my! ---
    Islam gives them a lot of “Street Credit”, pretty good for what Muslims call the Jews: “Sons of Pigs and Monkeys!”
    Because the Moslem’s “Isa” was also a Jew, he must then also be one of the “Sons of Pigs and Monkeys!”]

    Now, what is all this crap about MoHamMad “Ascending into ‘Heaven’ from the “al-Aqsa Mosque”???

    In 632 Mohammad was able to perform the hajj. Soon after his return to Medina, he died in the presence of his favorite wife, ‘A’isha and her father, Abu Bakr. Mohammad was buried in his own house, which had already served as a mosque (Umayyad Mosque) for some years. The mosque still lies there, and is counted as the second most important mosque in all Islam, and Medina the second most holy city.

    When Mohammad died in 632, he was BURIED. The grave site of Mohammad is well known. He performed NO recorded miracles at all, except for the “miracles” no-one ever witnessed, or while he was sleeping, and only told others about it later after he woke up.

    The Muslims fiercely believe their “Prophet” Mohammed left his footprints on the rock sitting underneath the Dome of the Rock; as the last remaining evidence of his human existence, before he ascended into heaven. (Both “died and buried” and also “ascended into heaven”!) According to the Koran, the “Prophet” Jesus (Isa) ascended into Heaven, but the “Final Messenger of ‘Allah”: Mohammad is just dead and buried as all normal flesh!

    The Quranic ‘Jesus’ (Isa) has many special features like he was born without the assistance of a man and that the Moslem “god” created him from a part of his spirit and that the devil didn’t dare to touch him after he was born.
    But Mohammad was born as a ‘normal’ human being, with ONLY ‘normal’ abilities, and died and was buried as all normal flesh!

  • kiwi41

    All western religions need to put aside their petty idealogical differences and unite behind the real Jews ( I classify Benjamin Netanyahu as a real Jew ) and the state of Israel, to initiate steps to do WHATEVER it takes to exterminate the disease of Islam from the face of the earth.

    Anything else is counter productive.( and aiding the enemy )

  • Softly Bob

    Satan was extremely angry when he was fooled by the death and resurrection of Jesus, for it was this death and resurrection that gave the gift of salvation to all of mankind. One of Satan’s aims since then has been to deny the resurrection and to cause others to deny it..
    Satan is the Father of lies, and he pretends not to hate Jesus (for this would fool nobody) but instead he pretends that he respects Jesus but at the same time claims that Jesus did not die on the cross, claims that Jesus has no divinity and is not the Son of God, and reduces the status of Jesus to that of a mere prophet.
    That is exactly what Mohammed taught.
    God knew exactly what Satan would do and warned Christians about this. Consider what the Apostle John wrote around five-hundred years before Mohammed was even born:

    Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    1st John 22

    Muslims deny the Father and Son. In fact it is offensive to a Muslim to declare that Jesus is the Son of God. Muslims do not believe in the death and resurrection either. Nor do they believe that Jesus was the Messiah.
    Islam is nothing other than a Satanic counterfeit of Christianity and Allah is Satan.

  • Moa

    Great article.

    Muslims make the false claim that they worship the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham is YHWH. YHWH is described in the Torah and Bible as “ever faithful” and “cannot lie”. The god of the Islam, Allah, is described many times in Qur’an and hadith as the “Greatest of Deceivers”. Not only is the Muslim claim false and their Allah not the same as YHWH, but is actually the opposite of YHWH in attributes and commandments.
    “IS ALLAH THE GOD OF BIBLE?”
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htm

    But it gets more interesting that that …

    In Qur’an Sura 53:19-20 (part of the “Satanic verses”) Mohammed states that Allah has daughters:
    53:19 “So have you considered al-Lat and al-’Uzza?”
    53:20 “And Manat, the third – the other one?”

    The chief god of the Nabateans has these three goddesses for daughters, and his name is Dushara. That would mean “Allah” (the Arabic for “God”) has a personal name of Dushara (which is different than the personal name of the God of Abraham, which is “YHWH”).

    Of course, this fits with the emerging historical record about early Islam, where it appears Mohammed may have come from Petra (capital city of the Nabateans), Only later was the mythology of Islam created by the Caliph Abd al-Malik for political reasons in the Arabian Empire. See the following for some of the details:
    “An Historical Critique of Islam’s Beginnings – Jay Smith
    ” [72 mins]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9lIuUjPs0

    Islam is false and is based on lies and deceptions. It enslaves Muslims and non-Muslims alike and brings huge misery and evil into the World. It is time to get rid if it by exposing its falsehoods.

  • Jack Schitt

    Sura 109 should remove any doubt

  • johninohio1

    Well put. Thank you. You’re the only one making sense around here.

  • Yusuf S. Ghazzali

    Cherry-picking of Quran verses by Islamophobes is a common but counterproductive tactic.

    The second part of 5:82 is nowhere in the list, the writer has “cleverly” selected the first part of the verse only, but let me expose him…

    ” ….. and you will find the nearest of people in affection to the believers (muslims) are those who say, “We are Christians.” That is because among them are priests and monks and they are not arrogant.”

    Looking forward to reading some “rich selections” of the Talmud especially what it says about non-Jews! :)

  • efraim mackellar

    FPM does censorship. Where’s your, er, beloved first amendment ? Looks more like Stalinist regulation to me.

  • fadestyle

    If we new the name and used the name of our creator we would not have this article. God is a title and not a name. there is a reason we have the 1st commandment because there are others with that same title and if you know his name there will be no argument or discussion about whether we all worship the same or not… whats your God’s name?

  • fadestyle

    you and other Christians may not but tell that to the Catholics.

  • birddog

    We all do have a moon but only Muslims worship it as god or at least the god of the moon.

  • dneuwen

    simple law of logi called the law of non-cnotrdiction clearlyu showe allh of isalm is not the same as the God of the tannach 9olt testawemnt) and the new testament. allah tiem and time again contradicts or alter much that which was written in the jewish and chrtitain bible. I mena id this relaly dtaht difficult to comnpreend?

    • fadestyle

      does any one think its weird that we are commanded to NOT have any other gods before God but yet when you talk about him you use his title that sounds indistinguishable from the G to the little g. Why do all other religions know the name of their god but we dont know ours? if you know and use the name of the true creator of the universe, we wont need to have this discussion.

      • dneuwen

        I said “the same God/Elohim/YHWH” of the bible to distinguish the true Creator God from all false gods including allah. it is puzzling to me why you do not get my obvious point. what is Elohim and YHWH but biblical names of the one and only true God. i could add more God names like El Shaddai (the name used by the patriarchs), Adonai, El Elyon, etc. so to accuse me of not knowing the name of the true Creator , now that is weird.