Jihadis Display ‘Power of Islam’ on Donkey Victims

donkeyVery graphic videos recently appeared on Arabic-language media portraying Islamic jihadis in Syria slaughtering donkeys in order to consume them.

The main point made by some of these websites is that the jihadis are hypocrites for (again) violating Islamic law, which bans the eating of domesticated donkeys.

In the words of a fatwa, or Islamic decree, titled “Is it permissible to eat donkey meat?”

Praise be to Allaah.

It is permissible to eat the meat of onagers (“wild donkeys”) and it is haraam [forbidden] to eat the meat of domesticated donkeys. The first is permitted because of the report narrated by al-Bukhaari (5492) and Muslim (1196) from Abu Qataadah (may Allaah be pleased with him) who hunted an onager and brought a piece of it to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he ate some of it, and he said to his companions: “It is halaal [permissible], eat it.”

With regard to domesticated donkeys, their meat was permitted at first, then the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) declared it to be haraam [forbidden] on the day of Khaybar.

Questions of wild or domesticated aside—and the donkeys do appear to be domesticated—this is yet another example of the fact that, for those waging jihad to empower Allah’s word, dispensations are always available.

As discussed here, it is precisely because the strictures of Islamic law are relaxed for the jihadi—often permitting the indulgence of depraved behavior—that the jihad has always been an appealing option.

While killing animals for consumption is commonplace, what is notable about these videos is the “supremacist” demeanor of the jihadis towards the donkeys—as if the animals are also “infidels” to be treated with contempt and brutality.

Watching them slaughter the donkeys is like watching them slaughter human “infidels”—with all the triumphant theatrics.

In one video, “Allahu Akbar!” is heard while a donkey is being decapitated.

Jihadis habitually cry “Allahu Akbar” (Islam’ supremacist war-cry, which literally means Allah is “greater”) whenever striking down infidels—especially when ceremoniously beheading them.

But why say it while slaughtering a donkey—an animal—for consumption?

In another video, the animals are very inhumanely treated—sadistically dumped out of a truck, then struck on the head with a club, followed by decapitation—all to background laughter and snickers (reminiscent of yet another video of a donkey being set on fire, apparently “for laughs,” in some Arab nation, possibly Algeria.)

Again, why is the act of slaughtering an animal for consumption videotaped and disseminated on the Internet in the first place—and sensationalized as if it were an infidel enemy, not a dumb animal, that was being “overcome”?

Upon further reflection, one begins to realize that the jihadis are not treating the donkeys like infidels, but rather that, because non-Muslims are often seen as subhuman on a par with animals—Islam’s prophet reportedly said that women are like horses, “for all are ridden”—it is the infidels who are being treated as animals.

As for the sadistic abuse of animals—full of supremacism and power trips—that’s apparently standard, as suggested by this December 2013 report.

Shocking footage of cattle exported from Australia being tortured and killed in the streets of Gaza is being described by an Australian animal rights group as the worst animal cruelty case it has ever seen in the live export industry, The West Australian news reported Thursday.  Footage compiled by Animals Australia shows bulls being “knee-capped by a man armed with an assault rifle, another stabbed in the eye and other having their throats hacked open in the streets.”…

So acceptable is this brutal treatment to locals that they are cheering and filming the spectacle on mobile phones,” Animals Australia campaign director Lyn White said (emphasis added).

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  • herb benty

    Islam creates the liar, deceiver, pervert, murderer and psychopath, glorifies their evil deeds with promises of eternal sexual satisfaction. Man’s basic desires and wickedness finds this all irresistable. And the real devious part for the West is that the tip of their sword is a pretty girl in a nice headscarf!

    • AnettaBiolettimso

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      with a laptop. visit their website F­i­s­c­a­l­p­o­s­t­.­C­O­M­

  • Americana

    I’d say there’s a strong likelihood that videos of HALAL slaughter are being put on line because Muslims are well aware there is currently a cultural war going on over which method of slaughter is HUMANE vs INHUMANE. Every single anti-jihad outlet is attempting to portray HALAL slaughter (knife to the throat to cut all blood vessels in one stroke) as inhumane and KOSHER slaughter (knife to the throat to cut all blood vessels in one stroke) as being humane and progressive and kind. Get a clue, slaughter is not an easy thing however it’s handled. Analyzing every little thing about Muslim culture and making it out to be more brutal and more inhumane and more disgusting than other cultures is just off-the-charts wacko. Especially if you know anything about the slaughter process. What’s even more funny is to take for granted that Islam isn’t like every other culture about having sexist male jokes about riding women. Most European cavalry units have drinking toasts involving riding their wives and girlfriends.

    To women and horses…
    And the men that ride them.

    –French cavalryman’s toast

    • CowboyUp

      The theatrics, eye poking, and knee capping are a bit much, and the last two are needlessly cruel. We condemn that sort of thing here, why not there?

      • Americana

        I’ve got no problem w/condemning the worst cruelties in any videos depicting slaughter. But to pretend that HALAL slaughter is different from KOSHER slaughter is absurd and it’s wrong when you attempt to make it out to be a culturally better thing. There’s a video on here that shows a guy simply stunning the donkeys w/a metal bar by striking their skulls or necks and then cutting their throats. (This is the video where there’s a dwarf in the background standing on a higher level of the donkey stable area.) There’s NOTHING intrinsically WRONG w/that. It’s horrible to look at and to do, but it’s slaughter. The man who runs the feed mill where I buy my animal feeds for my farm worked in a pig slaughtering plant during high school and college. He’s got horrible stories. What’s the difference? You know bad slaughter when you see it and you know relatively decent slaughter when you see it.

        • Habbgun

          What a crock you lying sack of left wing white trash. Kosher slaughter is painless. The welfare of the animal is foremost. The whole point of the Patriarchs being shepherds of King David being a shepherd before a king was that learning kindness to animals is a prerequisite to learning kindness to humans. Judaism well understood someone cruel to animals is a cruel person period and a threat to humanity as well. There is no comparison between it and what this Islamic display is. You are a slandering white trash monkey.

          • Americana

            Too bad, there’s no actual difference between kosher slaughter and halal slaughter and that any monkey can see that there isn’t. By the way, the same premise that slaughter is meant to be painless underlies the halal slaughter technique.

            The fact this isn’t necessarily the case when someone is beheaded is indicative of the real nature of this quibbling over halal vs kosher slaughter.

    • Atikva

      Don’t even try to justify these revolting facts, don’t you dare equate any of these barbarous, sub-human customs perpetrated by the adepts of this totalitarian ideology that passes itself for a religion with anything in our Judeo-Christian civilization. The slaughter of animals for consumption is just an excuse, there are a store of videos showing the horrors they inflict to all sorts of animals – and not only to animals, in fact, to anyone unable to defend themselves.

      These people are the drags of humanity.

      • Americana

        Don’t you folks even try to pretend that halal slaughter and kosher slaughter are so radically different. I’ve never heard such ridiculous differentiation for the sake of cultural superiority! You guys must not know that there have been hideous exposes of what goes on in American slaughterhouses and that they’re equally as outrageous as any of these actions. As for disgusting treatment of animals in the streets, I knew American guys who captured vast numbers of blackbirds in nets. They’d set them alight and watch them fly away on fire. These were American kids having a good time…

        There may be horrible, inhumane things being done to PEOPLE who are caught by these jihadis but that has nothing to do w/their slaughter of animals for meat. Trying to create a more and more and more heated and outrageous cultural stereotype of Islam is just not going to be allowed. It’s like watching the counter channel of the Arab television network that’s saying all sorts of nasty, insane things about Israelis and Jews. If you don’t realize you’re indulging in the very same demonization, you should.

        • Damaris Tighe

          You are partly right – I’m unconvinced that halal slaughter is any worse than our slaughter practices but I do object to eating meat that has been dedicated to a demon & where a percentage of the proceeds goes to Islamic charities.

          • Americana

            I don’t believe that any stupid incantation is going to have any effect whatsoever on my digestion and it certainly doesn’t mean anything to have halal meat served in any capacity unless one wants to be a cultural nitwit. But what is being done in these sorts of articles, and there has been a SPATE of articles just like this one, is to attempt to create cultural hysteria over the slaughtering of animals. These articles also attempt to make the claim that these Muslims are practicing for the similar slaughtering of human beings. There may be a connection VISUALLY but this guy was not slaughtering these donkeys to practice slaughtering people. Why is that? Because there’s really no need.

            As for the Islamic charities connection, not all halal slaughterhouses contribute money to Islamic charities. Besides, not all Islamic charities give money to support jihad. What the percentage is that do, I don’t know.

        • john spielman

          well Islam IS EVIL and sharia law is a brutal unjust apartheid legal system that allows such barbaric acts against people that they do to animals

          • Americana

            I don’t happen to approve of most of sharia law, but I’d hardly say Islam is evil. To me, it’s more like a flawed, heavy-handed sociological creed that combines the survival strategies of nomadic desert living w/the need for instilling political and civic control in the Muslim cities. Islam needs substantial reformation to bring it into line w/other world religions where there is an inherent line drawn between the state and the church. I dismiss many imams w/a head shake and I can’t understand how they come to be given their power and status w/some of the pronouncements they make. Those imams that seem to be bloodthirsty and Muslim-centric, they are a danger to all. But, let’s face it, it’d be pretty difficult to start out from a kooky odd hadith and try to apply it to modern realities. Meanwhile, looking for every POSSIBLE WAY to depict Muslims as depraved, psychotic and disgusting human beings isn’t solving anything. Lumping all the jihads into one global jihad isn’t solving anything either.

          • Drakken

            You ignore islam and its evil practices at your own peril. Ignorance is no longer an excuse, and not all religions, people and religions are all equal.

          • Americana

            I don’t ignore Islam and its evil practices. I’m fully aware of what Islam is and what certain adherents allow themselves to do in order to further their jihadist aims. I see far more of a future in assisting the reformation of Islam than I do fighting this in only one fashion — militarily. We will not win the military war. it’s a HOLDING PATTERN. It costs blood, it costs treasure, and it costs territory. We don’t have the numbers to fight the kind of epic war some are advocating. We know there are Muslims who are interested in reforming Islam. This seeking of reformers is therefore equally as valid a pursuit as your pursuit of peace via Valhalla. We need to do some of both things but which one will dominate in the end is anyone’s guess.

          • Drakken

            When you kill enough of them, they run out of bodies, and in the end that is what it is going to take. Europe as we speak is going to have their own reckoning soon enough that will make a Serb blush by comparison. Islam is unreformable, period, no matter how much you wish it to be so, it ain’t going to happen.

        • Atikva

          The point of the article is about the hateful, contemptible practices that are still in force among too many muslims now, in this time and age, and the disgust they provoke in any human being worthy of the name. It is not our civilization that is on trial, it is their lack of it.

          As Wafa Sultan said’: “The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions, or a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality. It is a clash between freedom and oppression, between democracy and dictatorship. It is a clash between human rights, on the one hand, and the violation of these rights, on other hand.”

          Born, raised and educated as a muslim, Mrs. Sultan knows what she is talking about. You don’t. You are just trying to justify the unjustifiable and you fail.

          Gosh we have had more than enough of this nonsense!

          • Americana

            I’m not trying to justify anything so don’t suddenly veer off on a riff about Wafa Sultan. No, we obviously HAVEN’T HAD enough of this nonsense if this method of slaughter keeps being brought up as a signifier of their barbarity. The fact they don’t have large-scale slaughterhouses like we do in the U.S. and that they slaughter in this manner is a cultural artifact, no more, no less. Other cultural artifacts like female genital mutilation are another thing entirely. FGM is not practiced uniformly throughout Muslims countries. It’s got geographic areas where it’s concentrated so it’s NOT something that is endorsed or practiced throughout Islam. FGM should be DEALT WITH as a cultural artifact and handled from the religious as well as the sociological perspective. Every other aspect of Islam is just as able to be manipulated and brought into a more modern sociological viewpoint but it must be done by Muslims who are interested in reforming their faith. As for me “not knowing anything,” you can’t be what I am and fail to not educate yourself about the subject. I’m not a dim dhimmi and I’m not an apologist. I’m A CULTURAL REALIST and I know what the likelihood is of being able to eradicate Islam in the way you’re talking about.

          • Atikva

            Your so-called realism, cultural or not, is nothing but fantasy born of the leftist dream.

            And by the way, where did you see that I want to eradicate islam? An enemy is not to be eradicated, he is to be defeated. And you don’t defeat him by trying to find excuses on his behalf or beating your breast; that is the tactic of the left which inevitably leads to the defeat we are currently experimenting.

            We haven’t even yet begun to fight!

          • Americana

            I’m a realist, unfortunately for you all, and when I read that there are “huge differences” between the halal slaughter of animals and the kosher slaughter of animals, I’m going to research it. I’m not going to settle for what someone writes especially if it doesn’t sound correct based on what I know. So, just remember I’m not a Leftist, I’m a realist and when there are lies spouted, I’ll read them and I’ll correct them. You may have begun to fight but if I were you, I’d use better standards for your propaganda because you don’t defeat your enemy by spouting lies and inaccuracies about your him. Especially lies that surround a culture war.

          • Amerikarma

            “I’m a realist, unfortunately for you all,”

            And now I am going to be condescending and talk down to you all, because I am superior and a real big di__!

            No wonder most people here do not like you.

            You pull this s___ at other forums?

          • Americana

            You pull this s ___ at other forums of mocking someone’s BB handle and then following them around sneering at them like a junkyard dog?

            What do you think saying I’m a realist means?

          • Drakken

            Honey, your far from being a realist, you live in make believe lala land. As I said before, put your azz on a plane and come on over for a year, you will change your tune in a bloody hurry.

          • Americana

            Just what do you think would make me change my mind? What’s the point of me coming there? So I’d smell death? You don’t want to call me a realist because your reality is different from mine. I don’t consider that any of us will see the final scenes for how this plays out.

          • Habbgun

            HAHAHAHAH………You are a Leftist and a Eurosupremacist as well although to be fair at least you know what Leftism is. Its a bait and switch so that once people accept European ideas as superior then they’ll come to accept Europeans themselves as superior. You guys sure do miss the old days (and yes I know you are American but you want your European extraction to be exalted).

            If Communism and Socialism came from anywhere but Europe it would be on the trash heap of history by now. That is racism straight up. So is your claim to realism. It always begins and ends with you having something significant to say to whom you consider your inferiors. Propaganda and self serving propaganda pure and simple.

          • Americana

            Boy, most definitely you’re a Habbgun will travel sort of guy! Not exalting my Euro heritage at all. As far as I’m concerned, it means I’ve visited places and have seen things that many Americans have not seen. (You’ve seen a 500-lb. bunker buster bomb?)

            Don’t go confusing political theory w/racism. Other than when the two genuinely intersect, they’re not related. As for whether Socialism and Communism would be on the trash heap of history by now if they weren’t European political concepts, since there is a distinct minority of truly Socialist countries, it’s basically a bit player in the tool box. But it’s not an ineffective tool when wielded judiciously.

          • Drakken

            Socialism is nothing more than communism with a smiley face, and it always ends up with lots of blood.

          • Americana

            Why hasn’t that happened in any of the Scandinavian countries then? Aside from the recent white Nationalist Norwegian Supremacist, of course.

        • mollybee

          Halal and kosher slaughter of animals are totally different. Educate yourself before spouting rubbish.

          • Americana

            Really? You’ve watched both forms of slaughter on line in videos and you’ve seen that both involve using an exceptionally sharp knife and laying the animal down, drawing its head back and slicing all the blood vessels and the trachea and letting the animal bleed out. You’ve seen those videos, right, and you see substantial differences? The differences are what exactly? What am I missing? In the case of one of the donkey videos attached to this thread, the animals were stunned by having their skulls smacked w/a steel pipe. Stunning is one of those things done in U.S. slaughterhouses using a stun gun. Kosher slaughterhouses may or may not stun animals just as halal slaughter may not involve stunning.

            Educate yourself before spouting rubbish might be a good start for you. Here’s a little tidbit to start. Stunning is not universally used in KOSHER slaughter. A new form of stunning is currently being debated by Jewish rabbis but they’re worried it might not be kosher even thought veterinarians have said it’s a far better form of stunning.

          • mollybee

            Kosher vs. Halal:
            Kosher – requires the animal be slaughtered quickly and humanely, strictly forbidding cruel slow methods like strangulation.

            Halal – requires the animal be bled out in agony while sick people who get off watching that kind of thing have a “festival.”

            Kosher – requires the blood be drained cleanly from the *carcass* of the humanely killed animal, removing toxins released from cells into the bloodstream at the moment of death from the meat.

            Halal –leaves the meat *filled* with toxins released at the moment of death because the blood is removed while the animal is dying and therefore is not present in sufficient quantities to remove those last toxins.

            Kosher – contains little to no cortisol or norepenepherine (two stress chemicals that are similar enough from mammal to mammal to cross species) because the animal to be killed is treated well before it is put down and is generally not frightened as it is put down (because in a truly kosher slaughter situation, animals cannot be slaughtered in a sequential fashion, as the waste of one could contaminate the next, so they are not exposed to the “scent of death” the way non-kosher culls are)

            Halal – animals watch other animals die during the blood letting festival, smelling their fear and raising their own stress. These stress chemicals “marinate” the meat in hormones known to raise levels of aggression and violence in nearly all mammal species (including human).

            Kosher – requires cooking the cleanly drained meat completely, cooking any remaining stress chemicals into oblivion.

            Halal – allows for a surprising range of cooking methods, including even some “tar tar” dishes (raw or nearly raw), allowing for the spread of disease and chemicals and hormones that were not removed by the idiotic slow bloodletting practice and half-measure cooking.

            Kosher – the spinal cord is sectioned thus cutting off pain to the brain. Therefore, no suffering or terror.

            Halal – spinal cord left intact.

          • Americana

            This is an article that appeared in the New York Times about a young guy studying to be a rabbi who wanted to learn about kosher slaughter.

            _____________________________________________________

            New York – One Sunny day in late August, Andy Kastner made the short drive from his apartment in Riverdale, in the Bronx, to Yonkers First Live Poultry Market, a narrow cinder-block shop that sells live chickens, pigeons, quail and rabbits stacked in ancient-looking metal cages. At Yonkers First, workers usually slaughter and butcher the animals for customers, but Kastner was there because he wanted to kill his own chickens.

            Kastner, who is 28 and has curly hair, big brown eyes, stick-straight posture and a calm, thoughtful demeanor, had recently returned from his summer job leading a community-service trip for Jewish teenagers to a Navajo reservation, and he was about to begin his third year at Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, a small, Orthodox rabbinical school. He parked his green Subaru by an auto-body shop across from the poultry market, and from the backseat he grabbed a tote bag holding his slaughtering knife, his butcher’s jacket and a red leather book in Hebrew.

            Kastner spent the previous year studying how to slaughter animals according to Jewish law. Kosher dietary laws, which religious Jews observe, prohibit eating certain animals, and the ones that are permitted must be killed and butchered in very specific ways. There was a time when learning the practice of slaughter, or shechita, was part of standard training for rabbis, but in an era when most animals are killed and butchered on assembly lines, it has disappeared from the curriculum of most rabbinical schools.

            Kastner’s yeshiva didn’t teach shechita, so he asked the head of the school for help finding a teacher. Then he cold-called shochtim, or ritual slaughterers, in the New York area looking for information on where to get the special knife required for kosher slaughter. (“It turned out they were made in some guy’s basement in Brooklyn,” Kastner told me.) Now that Kastner has completed his training, he occasionally comes by Yonkers First to practice. Shechita requires one quick, smooth cut to the throat, which must sever the trachea and esophagus but not hit the spinal cord. The amount of force needed for the cut depends on the breed of animal, and the only way to learn is to practice. Kastner and his wife serve the chickens that he cuts correctly for Shabbat dinner, and he gives the occasional mistake to his doorman.

            Ten years ago, learning how to slit animals’ throats by hand was simply not a compelling choice for young rabbis of the clean-shaven, earnest sort like Kastner. But the politicization of food issues and the popularization of epicurean and artisanal eating has made learning Jewish food traditions relevant for a new generation. Kastner grew up in the Reform movement, which 120 years ago formally disavowed kashrut, the kosher dietary laws, as an anachronistic impediment to “modern spiritual elevation” — though Reform leaders later softened their position, decreeing that kashrut was a matter of personal choice. But for Kastner, Jewish ritual slaughter actually seems a bit revolutionary. He says he thinks that contemporary disconnection from our food sources is the cause of numerous environmental and social ills, like the national obesity epidemic. He wanted to be a shochet to help people make more healthful food choices and reconnect to the source of their food, and to encourage investment in local agriculture. He says the rules around kosher food — like the requirement that meat be slaughtered by a pious person with a certain intention and the requirement to say a blessing over every food acknowledging its source (land, tree, grain, other) — encourage mindful eating and discourage overconsumption of resources.

            Kastner is part of a nascent Jewish food movement that draws upon the vast body of Jewish traditions related to agriculture and farming; Judaism, for all its scholarly abstraction, is a land-based religion. The movement emphasizes the natural intersections between the sustainable-food movement and kashrut: a shared concern for purity and an awareness of the process food goes through before it reaches the table. “The core of kashrut is the idea of limiting oneself, that not everything that we can consume should be consumed,” Kastner said. “I wouldn’t buy a ham sandwich, and I would also refrain from buying an exotic mangosteen imported from China, which wastes fossil fuels and is grown with pesticides.” He told me he studied shechita because he wants to “create food systems outside the industrial model.” He has been trying to set up a grass-fed-kosher-meat co-op in his neighborhood; he says he hopes to travel to a local farm and shecht the animals himself.

          • Americana

            Obviously there are significant misunderstandings on what is kosher slaughter. This is the relevant paragraph from the full story that I attached below this post:
            _____________________________________________________

            Shechita requires one quick, smooth cut to the throat, which must sever the trachea and esophagus but not hit the spinal cord. The amount of force needed for the cut depends on the breed of animal, and the only way to learn is to practice. Kastner and his wife serve the chickens that he cuts correctly for Shabbat dinner, and he gives the occasional mistake to his doorman.

    • BagLady

      What’s even more funny is to take for granted that Islam isn’t like
      every other culture about having sexist male jokes about riding women.
      Most European cavalry units have drinking toasts involving riding their
      wives and girlfriends.”

      Agree with most of what you say until you get to this bit.

      Don’t think so. Speaking of your wife in such terms would be totally haram and ‘girlfriends’ don’t exist outside of wet dreams. Much the same rules as exist in Brahmin culture, though I don’t see them getting a mention anywhere on here.

      They don’t need a burka since, once married, they never ever leave their compound except to give birth, which they do at their mum’s. Even at home they have to veil up when father-in-law gets home from work, in case he gets over-excited by her beauty.

      • Americana

        I think you misunderstand my point. I was referring to the part of this editorial where Mohammed made a remark about men riding women… I’m not suggesting that Muslims have drinking songs and toasts about riding women in exactly the way that European males do.

        • Merry

          Do Europeans sing bawdy drinking songs while video taping animal cruelty complete with cries “God is great” or Assault weapon fire?

          We do not misunderstand your point.

          We understand you to be sick.

          If you have Baglady upset, then you must be a real sick puppy.

          • Americana

            Merry, I think you’d be better served reading that story from the New York Times and deciding whether you believe halal slaughter and kosher slaughter are any different technically. If I have to get veterinarians involved in the slaughter industry to come on here and say they’re identical, I will.

          • Habbgun

            You could get all the veterinarians you want. You would still be a slandering piece of white trash.

          • Americana

            You’re a twit. Veterinarians would laugh you and all the rabbis and imams off the planet if they were told there’s a cultural claim from either side about which is the best slaughter practice. This sort of cultural elevation and differentiation is ridiculous.

          • Habbgun

            Left wing white trash deflection. I have to warn you about that. The argument is not which kind of slaughter is more humane. Moslems accept Jewish kosher rules and buy Jewish kosher meats so there really is no argument there at all. It doesn’t go the opposite way because Jewish law is more stringent.

            The argument in this article is about barbarianism and how cruelty to animals easily equates to cruelty to humans. The weapon of the Jihadi is terrorism and cruel attacks on civilians. Their opponents, that is our civilization. (Or at least my civilization you seem to be leaving civilization behind as an inconvenience) do not agree with its legitimacy. So what do collaborators like you do? You turn to equivalence and slander. At no point is an animal tortured in kosher slaughter. You know this but it is an inconvenience so you turned the argument. Like I said. Deflection is the form of left wing white trash argumentation

          • Americana

            The argument in this article is that some would like the slaughtering of animals to be equated w/the beheading of individuals in jihad situations. They’re not synonymous and they shouldn’t be treated as such. Yet here is Irbrahim careful inculcating the idea that w/these slaughter videos on line it’s actually what these guys are doing. Even though in one of the videos, the guy is explicitly saying this is halal slaughter and this is why we do it. Is beheading people barbarism? Yes, I believe so because unless you strike someone’s head off w/a sword, the person is conscious of his demise for a few seconds. But overall, I fail to see why killing by any means is considered a whole lot more barbarous than another means of killing. If it’s not a slow and protracted death, if it’s relatively instantaneous, it’s a death that’s legitimate to me.
            _________________________

            (IBRAHIM) “While killing animals for consumption is commonplace, what is notable about these videos is the “supremacist” demeanor of the jihadis towards the donkeys—as if the animals are also “infidels” to be treated with contempt and brutality.”

            “Watching them slaughter the donkeys is like watching them slaughter human “infidels”—with all the triumphant theatrics.”
            ___________________________

            Yeah, right… Now I’m a collaborator! Not at all. I’ve said that slaughterhouses in the U.S. have frequently been investigated for just such horrors. It’s not a job that leaves humans intact in all cases and it’s very easy to cross the ethical and moral line. The attempt here is to make the connection between halal slaughter being indicative of a more inhumane culture. That just doesn’t work as a theory without taking into account more sociological elements.

      • Habbgun

        Here she goes…..trashing India which is not a threat to anyone….I know its hip to hate on the Indians because they are better at math and science than the modern day Chav but that is only in your own culture. Save it for the other chavs.

        • BagLady

          “trashing India”. Was that meant to be a pun?

          I tell a simple story of Indian Brahmin friends. My two young male Indian friends had married two cousins from a nearby town during my absence. They took me to their home to meet the wives. They were both lovely girls and one was due to go to mother’s the next day to give birth to her first. She would not return for a couple of months – many tears. They had never visited their husbands’ shop, knew nothing of the small town nor ever would. They stayed behind the walls assisting mother-in-law with household duties. When father-in-law came home, mother-in-law shouted for them to pull their veils down. Luckily for these girls, the family was lovely. It could have been otherwise of course, depending on mother-in-law.

          I am well aware of the ‘brainpower’ of the Indian and have never ever denigrated them on here or anywhere else.

          Kindly don’t screw my words.

          I called Rajahmundry home for 5 years. Know where it is? No, of course you don’t. You can’t see it from your armchair.

    • John

      Americana,

      You’re done. You just are. No one will take you seriously.

      “To women and horses…

      And the men that ride them.

      –French cavalryman’s toast”

      “Most European cavalry units have drinking toasts involving riding their wives and girlfriends.”

      Seriously? F CKING SERIOUSLY?

      Are these toast said in jest ti be witty or do they reflect a general European attitude toward women to keep them down?

      Look at relative literacy among women in the 18th, 19th and 20th century in Europe compare to the Middle East. Look at the the female prime ministers, and heads of state in Europe compare to the middle East or in Islam. There have been 2 female PMs in Islam, Pakistan and Indonesia. Both are more about family dynasties and not about females having real power. Note that Benazir Bhutto from a prominent family was assassinated. That has not happened to female PM in Europe by the religious. Margaret Thatcher and Merkel were not from politically dynastic families. Le Penn is but she has not been elected. I have not talked about the Nordic States, but it would only bolster my case.

      You should seriously seek medical help. You are delusional. You spend your time here trying to find some original sin of the West or some indelible stain. You should be able to afford a psychiatrist. You need one.

      • Americana

        Listen, Herr Twit, it was a joke. Alright, it was a FOKIN’ BAD joke. Based on the onager remark. You’d have to be a rider to understand what that stupid remark made me think of… You don’t take anyone else seriously who’s suspected in the tiniest way of being not 100% whatever it is you’re all so concerned about so why should I make the effort to remain serious and anti-jihad at all times? The main thrust of my post was that halal slaughter and kosher slaughter are IDENTICAL. No, I’m not delusional. No, I don’t need psychiatric help. Much as you’d like to slap on the label. Go ahead, it’s the usual routine around here.

        • Habbgun

          Skank.

          • Americana

            Yank my chain. But there’s no difference between kosher and halal slaughter. No matter how you slice it.

      • Americana

        Oh, and please drop a line to Raymond Ibrahim the author of this article and mention that you found his inclusion of the following to be absurd and that he’s “just done” and “no one will take him seriously.”

        (IBRAHIM) “Upon further reflection, one begins to realize that the jihadis are not treating the donkeys like infidels, but rather that, because non-Muslims are often seen as subhuman on a par with animals—Islam’s prophet reportedly said that women are like horses, “for all are ridden”—it is the infidels who are being treated as animals.”

  • Infidel4Ever

    Islam is a cruel and intolerant religion. ‘Nuff said.

    • BagLady

      Oh come on. You can’t blame a religion for the deviations that have cursed the so-called followers. Nothing in the Koran supports this kind of behaviour any more than any other religion or ‘cult’, as Buddhism is consigned to, does.

      Is it blood lust? How does it begin? Why do people slow down at car crashes and gawp at dead bodies? Is it an innate warp of our psyche? What does it feed in us apart from an appetite for more?

      The nearest I can get to a comparison in the West is increasingly violent computer games. Without the ‘excitement’ engendered by more and more blood and gore, the kids lose interest and move on.

      They now have a condition called Attention Deficit Disorder. In my uni days a study showed that 40 minutes was the maximum attention span for a lecture. I expect it would be much less today.

      I couldn’t watch the entire video. Once I got the gist, I switched off but then I’m not hardened, inured to such sights, although I once bought a live chicken in an Indian market and the ‘butcher’ chopped the poor critter’s legs off before his head.

      • john spielman

        foolish BagLady; it is the hadiths of Muhammed which codifies the above beahvior as Islamic along with stonings beheadings, ampuations for stealing and crucifixion! Islam is a barbaric religion, and NO Judaism and Christianity do not and are NOT allowed to punish others in the name of GOD -God says VENGEANCE IS MINE I WILL REPAY ( the harsh punishments of the Mosaic era was only because God directly ruled His people, and was present in the Tent of Meeting and met with Moses face to face to affirm the punishments, Later the people had rejected direct rule by GOD,That is why King David was not executed for adultry and murder, This Mosaic model I believe will be reinstiuted when Jesus who is God incarnate returns and destroys all evil and establishes His reign.

        • Americana

          Oh, yeah, let’s try to make the claim that there wasn’t a period when the Jews didn’t perform terrible corporal punishments under their own recognizance. Yup, it was that God guy who was in the tent directing Moses as to what the awful punishments should be… As for King David not being executed for adultery, I’d say he was a lucky and a popular man and a really smart guy when the political chips were down, nothing more, nothing less. So will the corporal mode of punishments be brought back because that’d be God himself directing that thieves have their hands cut off and adulterers be stoned to death? And that’s fine because, after all, it’s Mr. God telling us how to punish the screwups of the world. No, there’s a reason why most of the developed world has developed a far more humane legal system.

          Let’s not confuse the sociological issues underlying the development of the current system of law w/a lot of unrealistic bunk about what’s going to happen when God returns and whips us all into shape. Let’s also not confuse the issue of what we have to do to help Islam decide to reform itself, starting w/its sharia law.

          • john spielman

            you don’t seem to understand so I will TRY and enlighten you.
            Islam is evil and does evil things to people and animals because Mohammed got message from an apparent angel of God which it turns ous ( as St Paul warned against ) was actually Satan speaking so Mohammed was demon inspired and possessed by him, and as a result Islam is a doctrine od demons and NOT REFORMABLE, They will chop your head off if you try.

          • Americana

            There are all sorts of people who’ve claimed they’ve spoken w/an angel of God and tried to elevate themselves to prophethood by convincing others they did so. Mohammed managed to convince lots of people by all sorts of nefarious means. The religion he started now has BILLIONS of practitioners. it’s not going away just because you claim it’s evil and the devil incarnate brought it into being. Besides, whether it’s a doctrine that’s demon-inspired (you) or human-inspired (me), it has to be countered not as an existential demoniacal threat but simply as a threat on the human level. The fact there are Muslims who are interested in reformation of their religion offers me some hope that the most egregious tenets of their religion will be dropped from its practice. I’m FINE w/Islam undergoing a reformation and arriving at our current understanding of cultural practice and human existence. There will be Muslims who choose to lose their lives in the process but the process will not stop. Those Muslims are interested in saving their religion from itself. It’s THEIR CHOICE. In the meantime, demonizing the religion for all sorts of cultural artifacts that will gradually drop away from practice (female genital mutilation) is sociologically ignorant of how cultures — and even religions — evolve.

          • john spielman

            islam cannot nor will not “evolve”. they claim that their vile practices are Allah/Satan ordained and are unchangable

          • Americana

            There are a great many human institutions that have claimed they’d never change. Whether all of them made claims of being divinely inspired or not, they’ve collapsed for one reason or another or reformed for one reason or another. I say reformation is coming. Instead of simply saying, “Islam cannot nor will not “evolve,” let’s keep an eye out and assist w/the reformation process. The alternative costs a lot more money. (Bush’s Iraq War, a couple of trillion dollars.)

          • Drakken

            Islam will never ever be reformed, no matter how much you wish it so. Islam is islam and where ever islam goes, the blood always flows, without exception. Islam one way or another will have to be eradicated, or otherwise we will continue to suffer its deprecations and pure unadulted evil.

          • glpage

            The difference is that Judaism and Christianity went through a reformation and stepped away from that sort of violence, Islam has not. We cannot help Islam reform itself; its leaders have, for hundreds of years, proclaimed that Islam is perfect as it is, they are not interested in changing anything.

          • Americana

            Ah, so those religions did have a long period where they practiced horrible corporal punishments and those were only dropped after enormous social strife within many different countries where revolutions and revolts brought the underclasses into confrontation w/their overlords. Of course we can encourage about talking reformation within Islam. So what if there are many who say it’s perfect as it is, there are far more who say it’s not perfect. There will be eventual reformation, it’s simply a matter of when and where and how long it will take.

          • john spielman

            there is NO PASSAGES in the New Testament that allow violence against anyone! In fact it is just the opposite, the war we wage, St Paul said, was NOT against flesh and blood but against the spiritual forces(demons) in this world that infuence the people. Luke chapter 19 is a PARABLE about when Jesus returns and will destroy all evil and evil doers Himself( see Revelation chapters 19,20)
            The fact that ignorant people did violent things in the past that are NOT allowed by Jesus was because only a few could read the Bible themselves and the Bible was not availbale in large numbers for people to read for themselves until the mid 1500s when Guttenberg developed the removable type printing press!
            Islam is just the opposite. The hadiths of Muhammed do sanctify killing, lying, stealing, misogyny, polygamy as deeds that are muslims are encourage to do against infidels

          • Americana

            Sorry, John, that’s not my understanding of why people did horrible things to each other in the distant past. It certainly wasn’t because there were too few Bibles spread around! Corporal punishment was a means to an end for Western societies just as Islam mandated certain punishments as a means to an end — scaring the population into compliance and dishing out corporal punishments, no matter how harsh, when necessary. The fact there may be cracks appearing in Islam because it’s finally reached critical mass around the globe is, again, another sign that Islam is in imminent reach of a reformation period.

          • mollybee

            You simply do not understand the true nature of Islam as taught in the Koran. It will never change until it is wiped from the face of the earth. The Teachings of Jesus are how we should all live as God intended and would with absolute certainty bring about His perfect world for all.

          • Americana

            Ummm, molly, sorry, yes I do understand Islam at least as well as you do. How do I know? Because you’ve stated this very nearly UNIVERSAL same extinction talking point that’s the obvious mark of the beast of folks who only read blogs about Islam. Yes, Islam is a threat in certain regions. But it’s not charging to swarm across the Atlantic and have us throwing down prayer rugs all up and down Wall Street.

            You’re obviously reading only certain sources for information on Islam and you’re not reading other sources of information to give breadth and nuance to your blog readings. There are a huge number of geopolitical issues that feed into the jihads. You’d best acquaint yourself w/more of that information before going around claiming that those who say unfamiliar things are ignorant.

          • mollybee

            I do indeed read what I consider to be truthful blogs, read respected news, listen to podcasts also the radio to seek the true nature of Islam in this world, and there is too much ‘out there’ for me not to know that my views are correct and in line with millions of people, including ex-Muslims, but for the best part I have been educated about Islam through living for 30+ years in Muslim countries as I still do, and I can tell you from personal experience that the cult/ideology of Islam is everything that is said and much more. Evil. Experience is the best educator. The word familiar is where I stand. PS Islam is NOT a religion. It’s really simple in today’s world, as it was in the time of mo, to see the truth of Islam. What do you not understand.

          • Americana

            Where have you lived and what did you do there professionally? What were your interactions like w/the public and your neighbors? Tell us more. My sisters have lived in Muslim regions — my youngest sister lived in Cameroon, West Africa and another lived in most of the Middle Eastern countries, sequentially.

          • mollybee

            Saudi Arabia “Justice” Minister: Beheading Is Enshrined In Divine Islamic Law, “We Cannot Change Them”
            by ICA
            And they never will change them. As I often say, when it comes to Islam and beheading, you can’t think of one without thinking about the other. The only laws they will ever seek to change are those that are not based upon “divine Islamic law.” And they will seek to change those in an effort to accommodate the supremacist, suppressive and savage dictates that are sanctioned within Islam’s Sharia …

            Daniel 7:25a, “And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws …”

            Qur’an Sura 8:12b, “… terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.”

            Revelation 20:4b, “And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God …”

            By Courtney Trenwith, Arabian Business – “Saudi Arabia’s Justice Minister has defended tough Sharia punishments such as beheading, cutting off hands and lashing, claiming they ‘cannot be changed’ because they are enshrined in Islamic law.” Read more.

            Read more of this post

          • mollybee

            The aside below is further evidence of intractable Islam. I will get back re my Muslim experiences.

          • Americana

            We’re still waiting for your 30 years’ worth of living cheek by jowl w/Muslims. Surely, writing down that list of living places would have been just as quick as posting this little of hadiths and Biblical quotes and so forth?

          • mollybee

            Who is ‘we?’

          • Americana

            Not yet ready to share your experiences about where you’ve lived in the Muslim world, molly?

          • mollybee

            I’ve actually been getting a good night’s sleep. Your insolence and arrogance is amazing. I am not answerable to you. Saudi Arabia, Bahrain , Kuwait, Qatar, Nigeria, Azerbaijan. All bad experiences as all bar two has Islam is in your face day and night achieving nothing but unconviencing one’s every day life none more so than in Saudi Arabia. It would take a book to detail all my 30+ years experiences but suffice it to say the main non-interaction is just one because is an infidel woman one is not to be talked to ever and eye contact just doesn’t happen, and forget a cheery smile or a simple handshake, but these issues really are the tip of the iceberg. The arrogance of these people is stunning at every level of life. We all know about the brutality or we should do and to ignore what is happening across the world in the name so Islam is something we need to be aware of for our own safety and for that if our families because believe the current violence from Islam is going to find its way to our shores. We have been promised that,

          • mollybee

            Oh I forgot Dubai, no better than the rest. Plus I have lived in the USA, Hong Kong, Nigeria and the UK. There is no comparison between Islamic countries and the rest. None.

          • Americana

            Well, look at you accusing me of not knowing anything about the two types of slaughter? And you think I’m the arrogant one? Telling me to go off and learn something before spouting rubbish? Meanwhile, there’s the story about the NYC rabbinical student earning his shechita license that clarified what kosher slaughter actually entails and not one person comments? And it turns out the kosher slaughter method was just as I said? Lady, I own a farm. I know how big those vertebrae are in a cow’s neck from personal experience. I may be a Christian and I believe in turning the other cheek but facts are facts. And there’s no need to turn away from facts.

            So, you did what for a living in all those various places? That’s a fairly diverse range of Muslim countries. I’m not sure what I’m guessing your profession was that you lived in all those places. But I’d like to know just to see if I can understand why it is your reception was what it was. My two sisters had entirely different receptions on the two different continents. I’ll wait to discuss their experiences when you’ve clarified your profession and how each country’s population treated you.

          • mollybee

            I am going off line as I am taking leave where I do not have access to the internet, nor do I wish to. So any further comments from you will be unanswered before you intimate that I am avoiding a response to you.

          • Americana

            If you had time to write this, you had time to write a list of the places where you lived. Truth will out.

          • Americana

            There are only a few jobs that would entail moving to all those Muslim countries. It’ll be interesting to hear what your profession is and whether you worked or it was your husband working in those countries.

          • glpage

            I would like to be optimistic that the possible reformation of Islam is a matter of time. Unfortunately, I don’t think that will do it. Islam has only slowed down it desire to spread via violent jihad when it has been met with force.

            In many ways it is more an ideology than a religion. Ideologies almost never go through a reformation.

          • Habbgun

            You are ignorant of Jewish law Americana. Pure and simple. I know it is tempting to join the hip anti-Zionist crowd but the cool kids are already hating India and their treatment of the poor Pakistanis. Put your ideas masquerading as a positional goods away and stop defaming a religion you know absolutely zero about so that you can posture with the pro-Islam social climbers. It is a disgusting display and you are becoming more shrill and less suave (suave being relative to yourself and not suave as an absolute).

          • Americana

            Listen to you, Habbgun, telling me that even QUOTING a rabbinical student who’s earning his shechita license that I don’t know what I’m talking about viz kosher slaughter! Then you come out w/by voicing these facts I’m “a social climber” and accuse me of trying to join the “hip anti-Zionist crowd.” What kind of cockamamie explanation are you going to come up w/next? The hysterical part of this is that all these labels (narcissist, Marxist, socialist, etc.) are getting thrown at those of us who simply won’t stand for misrepresentation. There are enough grounds for real analysis of the Arab/Israeli situation that trying to misrepresent every aspect of the Arab/Israeli snafu isn’t necessary.

          • Habbgun

            Deflection is the left wing white trash argumentation technique. Your argument was that Islam is simply a continuation of Jewish practice and it is not. That when animals are clearly tortured it is simply something that is the norm for all and that we needed the

            “enlightened” like yourself to move forward. Kindness towards animals is very much part of original Judaism. Your left wing white trash deflection (obviously well developed. You are what your are) clearly ignored that.

            Judaism was highly developed thousands of years ago. All arguments by dirtbags like yourself are out of context or by anecdote (I read in the NY Times about a Rabbi that we said he said). The Jewish people have done well to live by their Torah for thousands of years.

            On the other hand Chinese, Russians and South Americans that have lived under European socialist ideas have suffered and declined horribly. That is the true tragedy of the world. That and the fact that socialism and Islam and have combined and will create something even worse. They do have ready apologists in people like yourself.

            The saddest thing about America right now is that people who sat in parks and crapped in buckets were considered great intellectuals by the media. I know you see that as an opening for yourself. Hey. Go for it.

          • Americana

            Where did I EVER SAY the Islamic halal practice was simply carrying on the Judaic kosher technique? There are only a FEW LOGICAL WAYS of killing an animal as instantaneously as possible to reduce its pain. I was just indulging in a little disambiguation by stating exactly what is done under each practice that make them IDENTICAL. Considering this halal/kosher slaughter controversy is being pushed hard on several sites, means only one thing, that it’s politically expedient, not that it’s accurate. Otherwise, why would someone like mollybee try to pretend that I don’t know anything about the two forms of slaughter? Why would you pretend (briefly) that the two forms of slaughter are fundamentally different?

            As for this stupid Socialism/Communism/Marxism business, I’ve got no time for it. I don’t indulge in them. You’re obsessed w/them. End of story. I’d get yourself a larger bucket though if you’re going to continue to produce this much BS.

          • Habbgun

            You said Jews carried on terrible corporal punishments. No and not ever. There are some unpleasant things in Jewish law but then it would be like saying five hundred years after the demise of the USA that a description of an execution meant USA was a bloody society. The “realist” of tomorrow would point to that exclusively. The actual knowledgeable and learned person would know that there was a court system, an appeals system and each one had a complicated means of establishing culpability. More importantly the “realist” would always either be ignorant of or conveniently forget about the presumption of innocence. Most people in the future barring a few who kept the original knowledge would even know that there even was a greater context. They would accept the “realist” without question.

            All antisemitic slanders work this way. You can not equate anything about Judaism with actual Jihadi terrorism. ANYTHING. Jihad has sought out unarmed civilians, women and children as a legitimate target. We hear that is not Islam but where is the apostasy enforced on those that do it? They tend to gain power and privilege. There is also a huge difference between a description of a practice (kneecapping a cow) that would negate something as kosher and a public ritual where it is consumed. In fact if you look at that you will see precisely the difference in the larger picture. It is rather dramatic.Ancient Judaism is far more moral and humane than modern Islam. Surely the reality of that can be accepted.

            I do not expect you to know anything about Judaism. It is not an issue in your life. I do expect you to know you hold a set of ideas that are consistent with Leftist thought and is consistent with the moral equivalence of those who collaborate with extreme Leftists and those who collaborate with terrorists.

            I don’t deny there are superficial similarities between Judaism and Islam. Don’t deny there are at the very least superficial similarities between your beliefs and left wing extremism. Extremists always hide in the nuances and the equivalences until they get power. The enmity between left and right is that the more extreme the Islamists and Left Wing get the more the moderates out themselves as not moderates at all. Your choice where you want to be.

          • Americana

            I wasn’t the one to bring up the Mosaic tradition of crime and punishment in this conversation. I’ve also never said anything about the overall cultural similarities between Judaism and Islam although there’s a certain amount of female isolation in the orthodox crowd. I don’t feel those similarities are all that germane to the conversation nor would any be allowed in this conversation given the attitude revealed in the discussion of halal vs kosher slaughter. If you wish to pretend that period of corporal punishment never existed in Jewish law, go ahead and pretend. But Judaism has REFORMED itself over time and dropped those horrific corporal punishments for a reason. I’m expecting that a similar reformation will do the very same thing to Islam. Judaism submits to civic law in the lands where it is practiced w/the option of appearing before a rabbinical court. That was likely arrived at as a religious courtesy. So Judaism observes a certain amount of separation of church and state whereas Islam’s flaw is that it doesn’t observe such a separation and it’s only rarely been attempted by Muslim countries. But secularism was tried very successfully in Turkey and that lasted for a very long time. There is always a chance that such a reformation movement will neutralize the worst aspects of Islam. We’d better hope so. As for labeling me, keep throwing the labels around and attempt to make them seem a logical choice for the conversation. They’re not.

      • Drakken

        Your really are effing dumber than a bag of hammers aren’t you? Obviously being humiliated from 3rd worlds has given you a nasty case of Stockholm Syndrome. I call you nothing more than a future Darwin Award winner. The cruelty the Islamic world towards animals, women and amongst each other is extremely well known, but often ignored and given moral equivalency by useless leftist idiots like yourself who think all things are equal when it is clear as day it is not.

      • CALLISTA KILLEBREW

        GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR BUTT. ASK THE ENGLISH, SWEDISH AND GERMAN PEOPLE. ASK SYRIAN CHRISTIANS, INDIA’S HINDU. COME ON GET INFORMED. MUSLIMS WANT ALL NON MUSLIMS ENSLAVED OR DEAD. CHECK OUT ISLAM EXPOSED AND LEARN SOMETHING.

      • pete

        “You can’t blame a religion for the deviations that have cursed the so-called followers.”

        Can we blame a bogus religion malappropriated by a dim-witted egotist from the Old Testament while quite possibly under long-term effects of sun and heatstroke??? i think SO.

        Would YOUR idea of a perfect man be someone that allegedly thoroughly sliced the necks of some 600-800 Jews in a single day?

    • johnnywood

      Islam is a religion for “evil beasts” and idiots.

  • Cappy1437

    These are sick, perverted people. Not decent, civilized people.

  • Up Huff

    So, if I read this right, we should start sending all of our Democrats over to Islamic countries so they can be served up for dinner?
    After all, they’re all onagers, and even have one as a symbol of their political beliefs.

    • Americana

      In that case, the Republicans will be going over there to facilitate parades and bridal parties and children’s birthday parties?

  • Gee

    I saw the videos. I will never understand how a human being could ever do such a thing. This is far beyond evil.
    Anybody that does this sort of thing loses all rights – especially the right to live

  • scooter

    When the jihadi does something brutal, it’s
    i) the fault of the Western Imperialist
    ii) OK because they are noble savages, who’ve never seen books, cell phones or the Internet so how could they know it’s “wrong”, by colonialist imperialist standards
    When the Palestinians do something brutal, it’s
    i) Israel’s fault.
    ii) Israel’s fault, always.

    Please forward the above the appropriate anti-colonialist university professor for better presentation and pervasive obfuscation.

    • Americana

      No one is trying to claim that what the world’s jihadists are doing is noble or justified. When the Palestinians do something brutal, it’s their choice. They should be shamed for their choice to fight other than soldiers. They should definitely be shamed for their tactical choices of civilian terror targets. However, it’s Israel’s choice to believe they can keep the Palestinians stateless forever among various other injustices. The Palestinians are not blameless viz terrorism but neither were the Irgun. Although the Irgun chose to remain ethical in their choices of targets and always chose quasi-military targets and generally called in warnings, how would the organization have been transformed over time? Would the Irgun still be as ethical today if they were STILL TRYING TODAY to achieve an Israeli state many decades after the Holocaust? I’m sure they would be, however I’m also sure the Irgun would be selecting larger and larger targets. The trouble is the Palestinians have never regarded civilian Israelis as being untouchable. That horror — of Palestinians considering all Israelis are legitimate targets — will not change if the political situation doesn’t change.

      • Habbgun

        Easy solution. The caliphate is global. Give up your farm to the Palestinians and the issue goes away. That is a change in the political situation. Your move..

        • Americana

          Here we go again w/the whole misrepresentation of the global jihad vis a vis the Palestinians. They’re interested in land right where they are, their historical land. There’s NEVER BEEN a GLOBAL CALIPHATE so my farm has never been the subject of a land dispute.

          • Habbgun

            Yeah the free thinker and realist has nothing else but Jews should up their land after they had already given up land. The European solution over and over and over. If you were the intelligence you claim to be you would at least have something different.

            Yeah….just say it is a misrepresentation. Deflection is the left wing white trash form of argumentation. It is all they’ve got and apparently all you’ve got. Let’s just hope you develop.

            In the meantime we’re done and if you are, were and will be the typical American than you’re right. American exceptionalism is a joke.

          • Americana

            Just what do you see as your land rights in the region? Just what do you think is necessary to establish peace w/the Palestinians? God forbid we have any argumentative deflection going on (so let’s get to those questions above.)

            FYI —- American exceptionalism doesn’t entail political lunacy.

          • Drakken

            Wipe out the pali’s and there will be peace. Keep believing that the pali’s will give the Jews peace, it just isn’t going to happen no matter what you give those goddamn sub human savages.

          • Americana

            Your wish list isn’t going to be fulfilled, Drakken. It’s time to visualize other alternatives.

          • Americana

            Still haven’t answered as to what you consider your legitimate land rights in the region? That is the next step in the conversation.

          • Americana

            Ahhh, I guess you’re not going to answer this. You’re just going to say Jews have given up land (you’re talking the Sinai Peninsula, right, so Egptian territory, not Palestinian territory?) and pretend that you don’t have to come to some sort of agreement w/the Palestinians. That part of the world is crazy land and yours is crazy talk.

            Let’s not worry about American exceptionalism, let’s worry about Israeli exceptionalism.

          • Habbgun

            I actually said before we are done….you are a mentally lazy Occupier type. I was referring to Oslo. They gave the PA autonomy. They wanted it to work and the PA being terrorists repaid it with rockets. Before the rockets they were ambushing the Israelis on the highways. I got tired of seeing the photos of dead Jews. Many of them children. As a leftist farmboy you are spared that. I’m sure if there were terrorist attacks on Occupiers you would be upset over that. Attacks on Jews not so much. Understandable. It is not your problem. I do think Palestinians will take you up on the farm issue. I do think it is a solution. I am being very serious. I would like the Left to make contributions and not criticism.

            Here is the thing. It is not the difference of opinion. You are boring and arrogant. If I wanted to meet people like you I can take the subway. Then I can get that unwashed leftist smell and get the full experience. And I live in NYC so I know EXACTLY what I’m saying. Like I said pal. We’re done.

  • Americana

    Not quite the way I understand Muslims can get into Paradise. After all there’s not very much incentive to be good for the vast majority of the Muslim population if the only ones who are going to Paradise are the ones who’ve waged jihad and lost their lives now, is there? No, just like w/other Judeo-Christian religions, there are multiple ways for Muslims to get into Paradise an most of them are pretty similar to our basic tactics — Do good deeds and hope for the best:

    (From the Religious Tolerance web site)

    Who is eligible for entry into Paradise:

    Entry to Paradise is limited to those who believe in God and his messengers, and who have led a good life on earth. In the Qur’an:Surah 2:25: “And give good news [O Muhammad] to those who believe and do good deeds, that they will have gardens [Paradise] in which rivers flow….”Surah 4:57: “But those who believe and do good deeds, We will admit them to gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow, lasting in them forever….”Surah 57:21: “Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and for Paradise, whose width is as the width of the heavens and the earth, which has been prepared for those who believe in God and His messengers….”

    Presumably Agnostics, Atheists, Polytheists, and followers of non-Abrahamic religions will be denied access to Paradise because of their lack of belief. So too will be people who have done a preponderance of evil deeds.