Is the FBI Creating Islamic Terrorists?

Robert Spencer is the director of Jihad Watch and author of the New York Times bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Arab Winter Comes to America: The Truth About the War We're In, is now available.


fbiHuman Rights Watch issued a report Monday claiming that “far from protecting Americans, including American Muslims, from the threat of terrorism…in some cases the FBI may have created terrorists out of law-abiding individuals by suggesting the idea of taking terrorist action or encouraging the target to act.” This is blisteringly ridiculous, but is already getting (predictably enough) wide play in the mainstream media, as it appears to confirm Leftist fantasies of predatory, rapacious law enforcement officials preying upon innocent, law-abiding Muslims in accord with official but sub rosa policies of “Islamophobia.”

What would it take for you to commit an act of jihad mass murder? Could an FBI agent convince you by any combination of love or money to do such a thing? “In some cases the FBI may have created terrorists out of law-abiding individuals by suggesting the idea of taking terrorist action or encouraging the target to act.” Ridiculous. A law-abiding individual cannot be coaxed to commit jihad mass murder. One would have to be already sympathetic to the cause, and at very least eager to act. These jihadis in every case were given numerous opportunities to say no and opt out of the jihad plot. They did not. Thus they, not the FBI, bear responsibility for their actions.

Consider this also: I myself oppose jihad terror and Islamic supremacism. Leftists and Islamic supremacists constantly propagate the lie that this means that I, and others like me, hate Muslims and want to see them harmed. Accordingly, every now and again I get an email from a Leftist or Islamic supremacist who thinks he is cleverer than he is, inviting me to applaud, support, or join him in doing harm to Muslims. I turn these messages over to the FBI and that is the end of the matter, because in reality I stand for the equality of rights of all people before the law, and do not support any vigilante action or harming of any innocent Muslim (or any innocent person). I am, in other words, not able to be entrapped. Why are so many Muslims, by contrast, susceptible to the blandishments of these FBI agents who are supposedly cajoling them to commit jihad violence?

Nonetheless, the general denial of the reality of Islamic jihad in the U.S. increasingly takes the form of a claim that jihad plotters were victims of FBI entrapment. Some Muslim spokesmen in the U.S. have for years before this new Human Rights Watch report claimed that there is no significant jihad against the U.S. at all – just the FBI fabricating plots and victimizing young Muslims. It’s all the fault, you see, of an “Islamophobic” political culture, and an intelligence agency bent on justifying its counterterror budget by finding some terrorists.

At least one FBI informant has contributed significantly to these impressions. Craig Monteilh, who spent a year as a convert to Islam named Farouk al-Aziz, infiltrating mosques in southern California for the FBI. Monteilh, who has now repudiated his earlier actions and brought suit against the FBI, asserts: “The way the FBI conducts their operations, it is all about entrapment … I know the game, I know the dynamics of it. It’s such a joke, a real joke. There is no real hunt. It’s fixed.” He thinks the FBI should apologize for operations like the ones in which he played a part, but, he says, “they don’t have the humility to admit a mistake.”

The primary purpose of this infiltration, complains the OC Weekly, was to “create and facilitate fake terrorist plots.” Martin Stolar, an attorney for a Muslim who was accused of plotting a jihad attack at the Herald Square subway station in New York City, is adamant: “The problem with the cases we’re talking about is that defendants would not have done anything if not kicked in the ass by government agents. They’re creating crimes to solve crimes so they can claim a victory in the war on terror.”

The Hamas-linked Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) reacted strongly to the revelations about Monteilh and other mosque informants: “Law-abiding Muslims at mainstream mosques and Islamic centers are being incited and entrapped by former criminals with questionable characters….The American Muslim community has never waivered [sic] from its commitment to keeping America safe, nor has it hesitated from cooperating with various law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, in ensuring the security of all US citizens.”

Monteilh and other infiltrators and informants may indeed have been overzealous, even unethical. If so, they themselves deserve to be prosecuted. But the fundamental problem with the entrapment claim is that these alleged victims of entrapment agreed to participate in plots involving the mass murder of infidels. Peter Ahearn, a retired FBI special agent, explains: “If you’re doing a sting right, you’re offering the target multiple chances to back out. Real people don’t say, ‘Yeah, let’s go bomb that place.’ Real people call the cops.”

That’s the rub. While FBI infiltration programs may here or there have been abused, like all human endeavors, if someone agrees to set off a bomb in the cause of jihad at the behest of an FBI undercover agent, there is no guarantee that he wouldn’t agree to set one off if prompted by a genuine jihadist. The Leftist journalists and Islamic advocates who have decried what they see as FBI entrapment have never explained, or even attempted to explain, why it is that there are people willing and even eager to commit acts of violence in the name of Islam who allow themselves to be ensnared in these plots.

Even the Leftist exposes decrying entrapment make it clear that the supposed victims of entrapment were eager to do violence against non-Muslims in the name of Islam. The initial Mother Jones piece about FBI informants, which author Trevor Aaronson later expanded into a book, The Terror Factory, opens with a convert to Islam, James Cromitie (who changed his name to Abdul Rahman upon his conversion to Islam), thundering that “the worst brother in the whole Islamic world is better than 10 billion Yahudi [Jews].

And Rahman was ready to act upon his hatred. He told a man whom he thought was a member of an Islamic jihad group but who was actually an FBI informant that he wanted to “do something to America” and was planning to bomb a bridge. When told that bridges were undesirable targets because they were made of steel and were hard to destroy, Rahman responded: “Of course they’re made of steel. But the same way they can be put up, they can be brought down.” But ultimately they settled on a plot to bomb several New York synagogues and fire Stinger missiles at airplanes.

The trial judge believed that Rahman and his co-defendants had been entrapped: “The government made them terrorists. I am not proud of my government for what it did in this case.”

Would Rahman have embarked on this plot without the informant? That is arguable; however, it’s obvious that if the informant had never come into his life, Rahman would still not have been a loyal, law-abiding American citizen, free of the seething hatreds that Islamic jihadists and supremacists find exhorted and justified in the Qur’an. And so Appeals Court Judge Jon O. Newman referred to Rahman’s statements about wanting to bomb a police car, “hit the bridge” and “get a synagogue” in concluding: “From everything that Cromitie said, the jury was entitled to find that he had a pre-existing ‘design’ and hence a predisposition to inflict serious harm on interests of the United States, even though government officers afforded him the opportunity and the pseudo weapons for striking at specific targets.”

Likewise Quazi Mohammad Nafis, whom Aaronson profiles in a January 2013 follow-up piece. Nafis, he says, was “a 21-year-old student living in Queens, New York, when the US government helped turn him into a terrorist.”

But it couldn’t have been all that hard. Nafis, says Aaronson, told an FBI informant that “he wanted to wage jihad in the United States, that he enjoyed reading Al Qaeda propaganda, and that he admired ‘Sheikh O,’ or Osama bin Laden.” He later told another informant, whom he thought was an al-Qaeda member, that he was “ready for action,” and that “what I really mean is that I don’t want something that’s, like, small. I just want something big. Something very big. Very, very, very, very big, that will shake the whole country.”

He embarked upon a plot to bomb the New York Stock Exchange, later changing the target to the Federal Reserve Bank in New York City. Eventually, he was arrested after trying to detonate what he thought was a 1,000-pound bomb in front of the Federal Reserve Bank – which he wanted to do, he said, “for the Muslims,” to “make us one step closer to run the whole world.”

Charges of entrapment are silly for Nafis, Rahman or any Muslim caught in a jihad terror plot to try to pursue. For there is every indication that Nafis and Rahman were more than willing to do whatever was necessary to enable them to murder large numbers of Americans. Nafis himself said that he had come to the U.S. from Bangladesh to engage in jihad activity; his goal was to “destroy America.” Thus blowing up the Federal Reserve Bank was not something he had to be enticed into doing.

Nafis at one point told an FBI informant: “We are going to need a lot of TNT or dynamite.” Aaronson complains that Nafis didn’t know where to get explosives, and that the FBI was helping his plot go farther than it ever would have without the agency’s participation; how he can be certain that Nafis never would have figured out how to get explosives any other way is left unexplained.

Becoming an Orwellian surveillance state in order to protect Americans from terrorism would be a cure worse than the disease. Certainly all surveillance and infiltration programs have to be subject to strict oversight and close examination to ensure they do not transgress Constitutional bounds. Still, the increasingly common charges of entrapment should be seen for what they are: yet another attempt to divert attention from the ugly reality of Islamic jihad activity in the U.S. and around the world, and to place the responsibility for jihadist misdeeds upon non-Muslims – specifically the ones who are trying to thwart the jihadists’ plans.

After 9/11, we were assured again and again that the vast majority of Muslims in the U.S. and worldwide were peaceful, and sincerely condemned such violence perpetrated in the name of their religion. Yet over twelve years later, we still have yet to see a sincere and effective effort within mosques to expose and report those who hold to the beliefs that led to those attacks.

Instead, we get more finger-pointing. And that means we will also get more jihad.

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  • swemson

    If we were living in a sane world, I’d say that the FBI has far too many straight arrows amongst their ranks for Obama / Holder to get them to do this, without someone from within the FBI hierarchy blowing the whistle on them…

    But we’re no longer living in a sane world are we? And Obama / Holder have such an incredible amount of chutzpah, that nothing surprises me any more.

    fs

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      9/11 proved that we are not living in a sane world, but in a terrorist world.

      Terrorism needs to be crushed by any means necessary.

  • ObamaYoMoma

    Since the sole fundamental purpose of mainstream orthodox Islam, which also happens to be the only kind as the existence of moderate Islam and radical Islam are unhinged myths, is the subjugation of all infidels and all religions into Islamic totalitarianism, i.e., harsh and debilitating dhimmitude, through both violent and non-violent stealth and deceptive jihad, (and especially the latter version in the USA and Europe), and the eventual imposition of Sharia, which is Islamic totalitarian law, to ultimately make Islam and Islamic totalitarian society supreme above all others throughout the world, and also because waging jihad in one form or another, either via violence or non-violence, is a fundamental holy obligation incumbent upon all Muslims in the world, as opposed to only a few so-called fundamentalists, radicals, extremists, and various assorted Islamists here and there that perpetrate terrorism for various contrived causes, all mainstream orthodox Muslims in the world are jihadists in one form or another.

    Otherwise, because Islam, by far more than anything else, is an extremely draconian form of totalitarianism that aims to dominate the world, as opposed to just a so-called religion, all non-conformers are executed for apostasy and blasphemy according to the dictates of Islam. Similar to the way the old Communist Soviet Union sent all non-conformers to the Soviet gulags. Hence, Muslims don’t actually have any choice in the matter. It’s either conform by waging jihad or die.

    • Americana

      Islam is a religion. It’s also an extremely totalitarian religion because it combined all the draconian sociology of the desert-dwelling Arabs w/NEW draconian religio-political conventions that Mohammed came up w/to maintain peace within Muslim lands and maintain Islam as a nascent juggernaut religion slamming its way to success. The fact those religious conventions are also draconian enough to facilitate the spreading of Islam by forced proselytization is also sickeningly psychotic. Not a good system in Western terms since the Muslim legal system is weighted in favor of the judge rather than the individual.

      Since there have been so very few U.S. Muslims willing to wage jihad, either by leaving the U.S. to fight elsewhere or to do what these men did and offer to wage jihad here, it’s not a demonstrable fact ALL Muslims are as you suggest, i.e., “all mainstream orthodox Muslims in the world are jihadists in one form or another.” Otherwise the jihad movements would be insuperable from Day One because of the numbers of Muslim recruits and the eruptions of Muslims within Western societies wouldn’t stop.

      • 1Indioviejo1

        In order to be Muslim, all Muslim must accept Mohammed as the prophet. The rapist, slave trafficker, murderous, genocidal war lord is “The best of Men”. If you embrace this genocidal totalitarian cult then, you are at least a suspect in a criminal conspiracy and subject to the RICO Act.

        • Americana

          The U.S. should use RICO act against all American Muslims#$@#! Sometimes I cannot believe the extent to which this anti-jihad stuff is being taken. Just as w/Christians and any other faith, one is generally born into the faith and one is either a devout practitioner or one is a so-so practitioner, Muslim in name only. Jihad will be beaten by us playing smart and playing the game in the ways best designed to yield the results we want. We should also cultivate those Muslims who feel their faith is being jeopardized and co-opted by these jihadists, wherever those Muslims may be because the Muslims are who will ultimately quell this horrific vision that’s being spread.

          • IslamDownpressesHumanity

            Islam being “…co-opted by these jihadists”. Very humorous, considering the found of islam was a totalitarian, draconian, Jew hating, mass murderer and slaver.

          • Americana

            It doesn’t matter what the “founder did” (Mohammed) since we’re talking the present day. If it’s not YOUR government and it’s not YOUR religion, you should be grateful you’re spared its strictures.

            Yes, it’s fair to say there are fundamentalist Muslims who are “cooping their faith” and forcing other members of their faith to their will. If all Muslims willingly were going along w/these fundamentalists, there’d be NO FIGHTING. The fundamentalists would be welcomed everywhere w/open arms. All Muslims everywhere would be welcoming the proclamation of the Caliphate by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and they’d be cheering in the streets in every single Muslim nation. Do you see that happening? I don’t. Obviously, there is more resistance within the Muslim masses than you’re willing to acknowledge.

          • Americana

            Oops, that should read “CO-OPTING” rather than “cooping.”

          • IslamDownpressesHumanity

            It “doesn’t matter what the founder did (Mohammed)” Why don’t you try making that statement publicly in any islamic state, as a sociological experiment?

      • objectivefactsmatter

        You miss the point: Just as all Christians are called to seek the will of Jesus, Muslims are called to seek the will of Mohamed.

        In case you’re not aware, you can find distinctions between the will of Jesus and the will of Mohamed.

        OK?

        Therefore just as Christians “mature in their faith” and align their behavior more and more with what they perceive to be the will of Jesus, Muslims “mature in their faith” by “discovering” the will of Mohamed. Which can be described as “Jihad for the sake of Allah.

        Not all humans that are apparently associated with any given belief system are actually progressing along those lines. But we don’t know in advance who is “maturing in their faith” until something goes “boom” or we find a lot of blood splatter.

        This time my advice is free. You’re welcome.

  • Gee

    Somehow I have a very hard time believing any law-abiding citizen could ever be talked into committing war crimes. They are that simple that they cannot tell right from wrong?

  • Americana

    I get the impression the media are focusing on these sorts of cases not as FBI malpractice but rather as a questionable law enforcement tactic given our legal system that accords so much to the status of the defense of the defendant. Trying to demonstrate that someone has decided on a plan of action prior to the FBI contacting that subject is a very tricky thing legally to prove. Those journalists who are writing about such cases are writing about the difficulties facing the JUDGE and JURY who are evaluating the defendant’s actions viz the defendant thinking about taking lethal terrorist action. All these cases, in effect, should be death penalty cases because that’s what the defendant was after — MAXIMUM INFLICTION of death and destruction he could achieve w/his actions. But they can’t be tried in that way because they’re never allowed to come to fruition. it’s a messy legal limbo. I believe we need this type of FBI double-cross sting operation but they’re also not a legal slam-dunk, UNFORTUNATELY.

    As for Robert Spencer always turning over letters from “Leftists who think they are smarter than they are” asking him to participate in plans for attacking Muslims (as if that’s a frequent occurrence), he may do that but somehow I doubt it’s as common an occurrence as he’d have you believe. Otherwise these solicitations by Leftists to engage in anti-Muslim actions would have made the news, reached the media in a big way, if it was a common occurrence and there was an ACTUAL PLOT that was uncovered courtesy of his actions. The Leftist letter writers themselves would have had to defend themselves in court under several different charges. Ever heard of any such cases? I sure haven’t. The fact is, Robert Spencer allows all sorts of genocidal statements against Muslims to remain up on his site. We’ve all seen what that kind of incitement brings to our society — ideologues who are so obsessed w/the “collusion and repression by our police” that they target police for killing. It’s a very tricky thing to arouse the American populace in a sensible way and steer them toward legally and politically acceptable action without stepping over the line.

    • DontMessWithAmerica

      You love adjectives, Americana. Pray tell, what is a genocidal statement?

      • Americana

        Awww, don’t mess w/me. You know adjectives aren’t anything without the nouns and the verbs and adverbs. Let’s see, lemme think hard now about exactly what is a genocidal statement… Nah, I’ll let you look around for yourself. You select what you think is a genocidal statement and I’ll see if I agree w/you.

        But if ideologues weren’t able to trigger nonsensical political actions in aid of nonsensical political statements then how and why is it that a couple of American anti-government militants assassinated two police officers as they ate lunch at a pizzeria in Las Vegas? Talk about aimless craziness.

        • DontMessWithAmerica

          Sorry I asked. You are a compulsive prattler who loves to hear him/herself prattle and that makes you a bore to be ignored.

          • Americana

            Yes, you should be sorry you asked because, obviously, you’re not the investigative reporter type. You’d rather substitute your rant against me for any possible locating of a genocidal statement. Here’s one that calls for total destruction of Islam:

            Magicmaninthesky >>> ObamaYoMoma • 3 days ago

            “Islam is the problem. Always has been, always will be. Until we destroy it in its entirety.”

          • DontMessWithAmerica

            O.K., aside from the fact that you love to hear yourself prattle and seem to have problems with grammar and definition, I see what you mean – a genocidal statement by your definition in this case is a statement of fact, of truth. Islam has been a problem, primarily to those born into it, and it always will be a problem to its adherents and those who have to deal with them. I was brought up in the Protestant Church but when I matured and realized it was all bunk, I walked away from it. You, as a Muslim, can’t do that. Your religion demands that you be killed if you try to walk away. Islam is a bigger problem to Muslims than to anyone else but since petrodollars have aided the more lunatic elements in Islam it is becoming a big problem to the entire world. These are simple statements of fact. Genocide is the physical eradication of a group and nobody here suggested that – though Muslims call for it all the time. Now, don’t bother trying to engage me in debate because I don’t have time for you and you will never hear from me again. You are a broken record and the only sensible way for the rest of the readers of Front Page Mag to deal with you is for them to follow my example and just ignore you.

          • Americana

            Don’t want to rock your little boatload of fallacies but I’m a Roman Catholic. FYI, I’d hardly say, as you did (DMWA), “Islam is a bigger problem to Muslims than to anyone else” but you’re entitled to your opinion. This web site and the opinions on it wouldn’t exist if Islam were not a huge problem for everyone.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            There are lots of diverse fallacies that have arisen in 17 centuries of fusing the Bible with Roman Paganism. That’s why you have so much empathy for Arab Pagan monotheists.

          • Drakken

            As a Catholic myself, I have zero empathy or sympathy for the Islamic savages and unfortunately Rome has ignored the muslim problem in the hopes that it will survive it. It won’t.

          • Americana

            Oh, if you’re a Jewish monotheist, I’d lay off mentioning the “diverse fallacies” of various religions. Wouldn’t want you to shoot yourself in the foot considering the ongoing misuse of Biblical prophesies in the situation.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            My feet are fine. Yours look bloody.

          • Drakken

            His is not an opinion sweetheart, it is a statement of facts which you completely ignore because all you have is feelings and completely ignore the situation of what is and go on wishing it was something completely different. Keep on wishing for those rainbows and unicorns sunshine.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            It’s “genocidal” because destroying an ideology is bad if they’re aligned with Marxists but good destruction if the ideology supports capitalism.

          • kertitor

            You are right, but she provoke and get a lot of answers/reactions. I don’t think she is muslim.

          • Americana

            Oh, I dunno. I think it’s pretty clear that if someone is calling for the “total destruction of Islam,” they’re calling for genocide, one way or another. But keep pretending that such statements don’t include genocide as one play in that particular playbook.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Sand naz is call for killing Jews.

            That’s genocide – you ignorant sl ut.

          • IslamDownpressesHumanity

            Duh, there are no less than three adhadith that call for the extermination of Jews. But I notice you never mention those, despite the fact they’re quoted by islamic clerics and in the charter of Hamas.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Oh, that kind of genocide where we must first materially anthropomorphize an ideology.

          • Drakken

            Psst shortbus, it isn’t genocide, it is warfare so quit your leftist bitch session.

          • Webb

            Dispute not with her: she is lunatic. William Shakespeare, Richard III

        • Drakken

          You call it a genocidal statement, I call it the proper term, warfare.

          • Americana

            You may be a Marine contractor, Drakken, but I would think that would enlighten you as to the INFEASIBILITY of your whole genocide warfare plan. The several Crusades didn’t result in Islam vanishing from the Earth so it’s very likely that whatever you’re willing to encourage Western mankind to take on militarily viz Islam is unlikely to lead to the desired result of a world from which Islam has been expunged. So what is your aim in reality?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Victory is not genocide. Genocide is rarely a victory.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Tell your Arab/Muslim pals that their attempt to commit genocide will backfire on them.

          • Drakken

            You might want to get my title correct Sparky, I am a former Marine who is now a contractor. Nothing is impossible or infeasible for I prove that everyday it is possible and feasible for I implement and carry out policies every bloody day that prove your premises WRONG. Islam one way or another is headed for a clash with the west and Europe is about to find that out the hard way.

    • Drakken

      Coming from a died in the wool leftist as yourself, that was hilarious!
      Here let me help you out with that brain short circuit that you have. The American law enforcement community (Fed, State and local) really do try hard to avoid Islamic jihad attacks, but they are under equipped to do so. Islamic jihad is declared war against us and should be treated as such, and you use the Law Enforcement community to identify the enemy and use the military/intelligence community to handle it. Islam is the enemy and as such should be treated like it.

      • Americana

        Sometimes, Drakken, you’re such a drama queen you don’t even recognize when someone is basically agreeing w/you. Where did I say LE shouldn’t be used in every single capacity, including sting operations like in the article, against jihadists? I don’t believe these people have been entrapped even if a former FBI agent claims it is entrapment. So, blow your hot air in another direction…

  • kenaan

    This is the situation of my country Palestine .I was born there in 1947 . I was obliged to flee my village with my mother after the Zionist bombardment of the village.I am not allowed to visit my village since 1948,in which my ancestors lived for a period longer than the kingdom of David and Solomon did in Judea and Sam-aria .

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1791958.1400096049!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_1200/remembering-9-11-attacks.jpg

      muslims are not terrorists?

      Osama bin Laden proves you a Liar.
      Al Qada proves you a Liar.
      ISIS proves you a Liar.
      Taliban proves you a Liar
      Boko Haram proves you a Liar.
      Boston Marathon bombers prove you a Liar.
      Muslim Brotherhood proves you a Liar.

      • objectivefactsmatter

        That’s Islamic nation building for you right there in one picture.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          Would mohammed atta entertain Moronicana talking points?

          Does Moronicana think she’s that persuasive? Arrogance of the self-righteous.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            She’s a useful idiot for the radical causes.

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      kenaan, Your death cult has caused death and destruction ALL OVER THE WORLD. Look at Syria where 160,000+ of your brother savages have killed – that’s Arab/Muslims killing Arab/Muslims.

      In 1947, when Israel declared itself independent, Israel was attacked by 5 Arab armies – NONE of which was the army of “palestine”.

      Your Taqiyya won’t work here.

      • Americana

        Sorry, Screw, but you’re not able to equate all the Muslim activities all over the world w/what is happening between the Palestinians and the Israelis. They are two entirely separate issues.

        it’s ridiculous to say that no Palestinian army attacked Israel after its declaration of statehood since there was no STANDING Palestinian army to take such action. All that indicates is that the Palestinians were in the same state the Israelis were — a population awaiting a declaration of statehood.

        • 1Indioviejo1

          There were NO Palestinian people, only Arabs. Arabia is their homeland.

          • Americana

            You’re not “the decider” in this instance, indio. The Arabs are and they are well aware of what the individual regional branches of Arabs there are. If they are declared Palestinian Arabs and they’ve got the hundreds upon hundreds of years of provenance in the immediate region to back up their claims then there’s no one who’s going to come along and knock them off the charts as an indigenous people who’ve got the rights of indigenous people. If this were not a historically verifiable fact, Zionists wouldn’t be trying so damn hard to rewrite history to make them look like interlopers. However, when the Zionists do attempt to rewrite history to serve their purposes, they look like self-serving idiots.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            They can define themselves any way they want, but lies will be rejected.

            OK, I have the local culture of my family, the greater culture of my town and so forth. But what did I do to build sovereignty? Cry victimhood and pass this ideology of lying and creating nuisance as the path to statehood?

            That’s why I don’t have a state. And you don’t have your own state. It’s not about self-image, it’s about facts.

          • Drakken

            Providence is what the Victors say it is, not what a whiny raghead who lost the wars they started has to say.

          • Americana

            ‘Providence’ and ‘Provenance’ are two separate words, Drakken, w/entirely distinct meanings. But, since you mentioned ‘providence,’ I’ll explain it in the context of what’s going on in the Middle East at the moment.

            If the Israelis hadn’t been given the leg up by the British (Providence) to reinstate themselves ever so gradually in the Palestine Mandate, there would be no Israel today (‘Provenance’ has only just begun ticking up again for the Israelis viz the Palestine region). So, please, let’s not have quite so much artifice about how it is that one nation’s provenance is called into question when another nation’s providence never addresses the question of provenance.

          • Drakken

            6 of one, half a dozen to the other, makes no difference, Israel isn’t going to give up any more land, and just like clockworks the palis are going to wage a little more jihad to try and get it.

          • Americana

            Given the situation, it will be very interesting to see if the matter of Palestinian statehood and the geographic boundaries of the Palestinian state are left to Israel to “decide.”

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Eurabia and Eurotrash loves Paleswine?

            Great. Which entitiy in Eurabia will offer land for Paleswine and settle the conflict? Londonistan is in the running.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            There will NEVER be a Pal-e-SWINE West of the Jordan.

            The rocket attacks on Israel demonstrate the need for distance from launch site to target. The more distance, the greater the time to run for shelter and time to destroy the missile.

            Bitch and moan and rag on toots.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Backstabbers around the world are certainly trying to have their say.

          • Americana

            I’d hardly call it backstabbing to be realistic about the status of this impasse in every which way — the military, the diplomatic, the sociological. The American journalist nee thriller writer who sponsored the Tel Rehov archaeological dig for two decades always said the two nations hated each other and they’d never settle a peace accord. That’s it, full stop. His perspective was the Israelis and the Palestinians hated each other and that’s it, they’d keep on at each other because neither side would give the other anything.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Islam hates EVERYBODY.

            Blaming Israel for the depraved behavior of Islamists is typical Socialist dishonesty..

          • Americana

            So, it’s not fair to bring up the hatred evinced by Jews but it’s fine to focus solely on the hatred evinced by Palestinians and/or Muslims? Humans are all alike. There’s no significant difference between humans of any ethnicity. The horrific nature of the Mexican drug cartels proves that one can transform someone into a slaughtering machine w/the right stimuli virtually overnight. I’d hardly claim the Palestinians are any different. They’re not just depraved killers from birth. Either you decide to see the humanity in your opponent or you don’t. But to demean that humanity means you’ll never willingly see what they’re fighting for nor will you remember what the Jewish fighters fought for.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            There is a “Peace Now” in Israel.

            Where is “Salaam Now”? Is there a “Salaam Now” in Gaza or the West Bank? Which Muslim majority entities have “Salaam Now” chapters?

          • Americana

            There are many Palestinian-Israeli peace organizations. Do I really need to re-post that master list of all these organizations? It’s immaterial to me whether the organizations are Palestinian or Palestinian-Israeli. The fact i have more faith in the validity of the interactions of those in bilateral peace organizations is based on my personal interactions w/them.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            List what you believe to be the top 3 Muslim Peace groups which reject Hamass, Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood calls for genocide of Jews as contained in the Koran.

            Should be easy for you to present 3 since you said there are many.

          • Americana

            Where did I ever say those Palestinians involved in these peace organizations have outright rejected Hamas, the Taliban or the Muslim Brotherhood and/or rejected the doctrine about the genocide of the Jews as stipulated in the Qur’an? What if they haven’t made any public trashing of the Muslim anti-Jewish tirades? Does that make their peace overtures less explicit or less genuine? What if they’ve never even thought to address that question? That’s a question for you to ask these groups, not a question you address to me. Get in touch w/as many of these groups as you care to. Write a form letter and email all of them. Post what responses you get for us to evaluate them for their content and their tone and their wisdom or their craziness.

            And, to add to my confusion, what is this wacky lumping together of Hamas and the Taliban that you’re doing? Why would Palestinians be in favor of the Taliban? I’m off to see if I can find any peace groups that specifically have said they abjure Jewish genocide.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            You said:

            “There are many Palestinian-Israeli peace organizations. Do I really need to re-post that master list of all these organizations?”

            Just repost your top 3 Palestinian or Muslim Peace groups. The 3 cream of the crop. Should be easy since you said “there are many”.

          • Drakken

            Keep believing in those mythical rainbows and unicorns Sparky, they actually might exist, just like a muslim group that doesn’t want to slaughter the Jews first and us second.

          • Drakken

            Those peace organizations are immaterial to the conversation and have no authority and carry no weight, the fact that you have faith in them makes you either dumb as a bag of hammers or you really do believe in rainbows, unicorns and wishful thinking because you feel, therefore you are as your policy positions. Those peace organizations that you have so much faith in are communist and anti-western to their bloody core and think in their little minds that if you surrender to your enemies that your enemy will love you for it. There is no peace without victory, never has been, never will be.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “So, it’s not fair to bring up the hatred evinced by Jews but it’s fine to focus solely on the hatred evinced by Palestinians and/or Muslims? Humans are all alike.”

            Here we go. Yes, humans are all more or less alike at the time of birth. And then programming begins.

          • Americana

            That’s right, programming begins at birth. But if there were no friendship possible between Palestinians and Israelis then why would there be any interfaith marriages?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            May a Muslim abandon Islam without fear of being killed for being an apostate?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Straw man.

          • Americana

            Oh, no, these marriages confirm that Palestinians and Israelis are humans at the most basic level. Their mixed marriages are proof there’s nothing in the genes that says Palestinians and Israelis can’t love one another. It’s probably a legitimate straw man only because there are still relatively few interfaith marriages but, just you wait, that might change given time and proximity. We never thought we’d have a wave of interracial marriages in the U.S. and now look at the demographics.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            More straw.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            It’s like you really can’t follow the conversations.

          • Americana

            It’s like you chop up posts to make it appear as if they can’t follow the conversations… Why is it I rarely opt to make that claim but you make it regularly? Hmmm, let me think on that for a moment…

          • objectivefactsmatter

            I “chop them up” to bring your attention to the points you should focus on. I chop them up to help you track better what you respond to and what you don’t.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “Why is it I rarely opt to make that claim but you make it regularly? Hmmm, let me think on that for a moment…”

            Because you’re a relatively new person that is ranting and raving about topics we’ve discussed many times. I follow you. But it’s pointless to actively follow someone when most of the people here have heard it all before and it doesn’t do you any good either.

            As an outsider presenting opposing views, it’s up to you to deal with the topics at hand or not. If you choose not to, you’re not going to get a lot of people interested in wasting time trying to reign you in.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            So let’s follow your conversation about marriage and how I claimed that genetic distinctions prevented “Muslimoids” from getting along with human Jews.

            I don’t remember phrasing it quite that way. Got any quotes?

          • IslamDownpressesHumanity

            Nice try at an argument of false equivalence. The genocide and ethnic cleansing being practiced by muslimes throughout the Mid-East and N. Africa is in no way similar to drug barons vying for supremacy in Mexico. The drug barons are not targeting non-muslims for extermination or persecution and the vast majority of the dead are members of the drug cartels themselves.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            At some point the loser should pick up the remaining marbles and go home. Or expect to lose all of them.

          • Americana

            At some point, there will be others involved in deciding who gets what if the two sides cannot come to a reasonable agreement on their own.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Maybe. But it sure sounds like you’re trying to add weight and credibility to jihadi and communist threats. Not to mention the RCC desire to open up Jerusalem to “international” sovereignty.

            That puts you on what side? I mean yes, that is always a risk (attracting international interventions) but why are you so pragmatic about that but so delusional about Palestinian jihadis?

          • Americana

            I happen to think that having Jerusalem as an open international city for a fair length of time is insurance against all sorts of worst case scenarios. For one thing, I don’t believe all the issues involved w/this situation can, or should be, attempted to be solved in ONE GO, all in one treaty. I’d prefer to solve the biggest issue first — the borders — and leave the issue of Jerusalem to a slightly later timeframe when there has been a period of tranquility between Israelis and Palestinians. You have your perspective, I definitely have mine on how to keep things safer for all and to maintain the city’s artifacts and holy places. I’m in favor of staggered peace treaties that can eventually be consolidated into one master treaty. I don’t believe in threats. Threats coming from either side do nothing but cause further estrangement but I am sure they will continue to be made. My words should be read more as cautionary worrisome ‘What ifs’ rather than as threats.

            I’m not in the least delusional about Palestinian jihadis. How many stories does one have to read about bombings or Israelis being killed in vicious personal attacks to understand the depths of Palestinian frustration? But I certainly don’t overlook the retaliatory attacks…To club and then burn a young boy alive? There are limits to our capacity for ferocity and we have reached them, individually and collectively. At some point, the combatants must see each other as human. How many times do I have to repeat myself that it seems Israel will have to defend herself for the foreseeable future against Hamas? I’m not telling Israel to let down her guard. I don’t believe Palestine should be allowed to militarize even if there is a peace agreement. I do think though if a peace can be achieved and it captures the right Palestinians, there’s a chance it will raise the bar for participation in peaceful coexistence. I’ve never had any doubts Israel would have preferred to begin her existence under a peace treaty but that wasn’t ever going to be the case given the strained and protracted circumstances of her founding.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “I happen to think that having Jerusalem as an open international city for a fair length of time is insurance against all sorts of worst case scenarios.”

            I’m shocked to learn this. How could I have guessed?

            “For one thing, I don’t believe all the issues involved w/this situation can, or should be, attempted to be solved in ONE GO, all in one treaty. I’d prefer to solve the biggest issue first…”

            Have you or have you not researched the Oslo Accords?

            “I’d prefer to solve the biggest issue first — the borders — and leave the issue of Jerusalem to a slightly later timeframe when there has been a period of tranquility between Israelis and Palestinians.”

            Been there and done that several times.

            “You have your perspective, I definitely have mine on how to keep things safer for all and to maintain the city’s artifacts and holy places. I’m in favor of staggered peace treaties that can eventually be consolidated into one master treaty.”

            Hello? Oslo Accords?

            “I’m not in the least delusional about Palestinian jihadis. How many stories does one have to read about bombings or Israelis being killed in vicious personal attacks to understand the depths of Palestinian frustration? But I certainly don’t overlook the retaliatory attacks…To club and then burn a young boy alive?”

            Oh boy. You don’t have to overlook anything. You have to put things in to some kind of rational, objective and sufficiently comprehensive perspective.

            “There are limits to our capacity for ferocity and we have reached them, individually and collectively.”

            All you’re saying is that you feel overwhelmed.

            “At some point, the combatants must see each other as human.”

            OK, go and make that happen.

            “How many times do I have to repeat myself that it seems Israel will have to defend herself for the foreseeable future against Hamas?”

            I don’t know that that’s what we’re arguing about.

            “I do think though if a peace can be achieved and it captures the right Palestinians, there’s a chance it will raise the bar for participation in peaceful coexistence. I’ve never had any doubts Israel would have preferred to begin her existence under a peace treaty but that wasn’t ever going to be the case given the strained and protracted circumstances of her founding.”

            Back to blaming Israel. Nice work.

          • Americana

            That’s not blaming Israel, that’s laying the blame on the circumstances of the entire nationhood business on both sides. In fact, there is some undisguised flattery in there about Israel’s preference for peace. But, of course, you’ll opt to try to point out the reverse meaning over the real gist of that sentence. You don’t like it, tough. Israel was carved out of another nation’s heartwood. Given there were 4+ decades of individual and collective Zionist settlement prior to Israel’s declaration of independence and that relations between the Jews and the Palestinians became ever more traumatic as the discussions and intentions of Zionism became clearer to the region’s Arab populations, there’s no reason for us to pretend those issues weren’t the instigators that topped off all the disgusting anti-Jewish sentiments in Qur’anic texts.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Jews were in the Land of Israel BEFORE Islam was dreamed up in the 7th century.

            This may surprise you but Jews are spoken of in the Koran, dictated by the illiterate bandit called mohammed, in unflattering ways..

          • Americana

            I’m not sure how one handles the obvious insanity of Qur’anic advice about killing Jews. That sentiment arose from somewhere out of the relations between the two peoples. It could have been a lot of sociological triggers that caused Mohammed to focus some of the Qur’anic texts on his issues w/Jews. Will it ever change? Who knows. You keep digging the enmity deeper on both sides and, no, the enmity is not going to change.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            The murderous dictates of the koran, fed to Muslim children in kiddie shows, fed to congregants in sermons in mosques, fed to the ummah in their media, are the basis of much of Islams barbarity.

          • Americana

            Islam should be ashamed of itself given its penchant for political stamping out opposition by death. It’s disgusting to see the politically and religiously inspired executions ISIS and ISIL are using to intimidate the local populations. There are many explanations for why this is part of the sociology of these fanatics. There are downsides to these killings though and ISIS, one way or another, will eventually reap them.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “I’m not sure how one handles the obvious insanity of Qur’anic advice about killing Jews. That sentiment arose from somewhere out of the relations between the two peoples.”

            That’s illuminating. It’s like “cycle of violence.”

            “It could have been a lot of sociological triggers that caused Mohammed to focus some of the Qur’anic texts on his issues w/Jews. Will it ever change? Who knows. You keep digging the enmity deeper on both sides and, no, the enmity is not going to change.”

            It’s pretty obvious where the conflicts arose. It’s the exact same conflict some “Christians” have when Jews don’t go along with the revisions. But Christians eventually heard about this Jesus Christ character and how they’re supposed to respond to rejection. Muslims refer to Mohamed for how to chop off heads…er…how to deal with “intolerant” Jews.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “You don’t like it, tough. Israel was carved out of another nation’s heartwood.”

            Liar.

          • Americana

            You can pretend that’s not the truth, objectivefactsmatter. But even without a previously declared Palestinian state in the region, the Palestinian Arabs were the dominant ethnic group in that area and they have the provenance to back up their regional claims. The fact the Palestinians had previously had their national political status within the Turkish Caliphate and not under their own flag is a matter of Arab political collectivism. To claim the Palestinians are not entitled to autonomy just because they hadn’t been given it before because of Arab political conventions is a moot point. If you wish to quibble over the notion of nationhood given those circumstances, I suggest you change your BB handle to something more appropriate to your fundamental philosophical dishonesty. Perhaps “perspectivematters” might be more appropriate.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “You can pretend that’s not the truth…”

            Name the nation that lost because of Israel.

            “But even without a previously declared Palestinian state in the region, the Palestinian Arabs were the dominant ethnic group in that area and they have the provenance to back up their regional claims.”

            The Kurds have much better justification for lodging a complaint against Israel than these “Palestinians” do.

            “The fact the Palestinians had previously had their national political status within the Turkish Caliphate and not under their own flag is a matter of Arab political collectivism. To claim the Palestinians are not entitled to autonomy just because they hadn’t been given it before because of Arab political conventions is a moot point.”

            What? National political status? This is some kind of physical science you’ve used to model all of your “what if” scenarios?

            “To claim the Palestinians are not entitled to autonomy just because they hadn’t been given it before because of Arab political conventions is a moot point.”

            It’s difficult repeating the same themes to dupes like you time and again. OK. Let’s try it like this. Does the US constitution guarantee happiness, or the right to pursue happiness?

            The Palestinians and everyone else has those same natural rights. They are not guaranteed results. They blew it. You can’t just point to the nearest successful enemy nation and or culture and blame everyone there for your own problems.

            Basically what you do is help create endless straw arguments about their grievances and what opponents like me have to say about these grievances. You’re not really following the conversations. You’re making up your own arguments on both sides of the fence.

            “If you wish to quibble over the notion of nationhood given those circumstances, I suggest you change your BB handle to something more appropriate to your fundamental philosophical dishonesty. Perhaps “perspectivematters” might be more appropriate.”

            Right. Because according to you, I’m in denial of those “facts” that you fabricate, like the universal right to guaranteed success offered by the Utopian global sovereign.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Open Muslims-Only apartheid Mecca to Infidels.

            As a confidence building measure.

            http://www.chriskuzneski.com/tour/sword_files/checkpoint.jpg

          • IslamDownpressesHumanity

            But dontcha know, that’s a good kind of apartheid!

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Under eternal Israeli sovereignty, Jerusalem is open to all religions.

            Unlike the situation when Jordan was in control.

            That’s JORDAN, NOT Pal-e-SWINE.

          • IslamDownpressesHumanity

            “strained and protracted circumstances” yeah, that’s what you might call it when 4 Arab armies invade Israel w/the stated intention of pushing the Jews “into the sea”.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Americana objectivefactsmatter • a day ago: “I’d hardly call it backstabbing to be realistic about the status of this impasse in every which way…”
            It’s for purely pragmatic reasons that the RCC is working on international sovereignty for Jerusalem. Great idea.

          • Drakken

            There is no pali state, there has never been a pali state and there will never be a pali state, so just what part are you stuck on stupid with?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            It sounds like you’re simply confused about the facts while you imagine that everyone who disagrees with you is confused.

          • Americana

            I’m not confused at all about the “facts” you’ve created out of partial truths stewed up w/lots of misstatements and purposeful misappropriation. But keep trying to sell these misstatements and we’ll see how they’re rebutted by the larger world.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            I’d ask you for examples but you’d just launch in to another rant.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            LOL!

          • IslamDownpressesHumanity

            Jews have thousands of years of “provenance” in Israel, Judea and Samaria. Then there’s the Christians who are being ethnically cleansed from lands they had settled in hundreds of years before muhammud was even born. Then there’s the Jewish tribes of Saudi Arabia. Why don’t they get any land swaps?

          • Americana

            What’s happening now under Muslim fundamentalists won’t be able to be corrected until those territories have been retaken by LEGITIMATE governments. You can’t blame the political and social situations in other areas of the Middle East region — the dispossessions and the depredations and deaths of Christians and Jews and other religious sects — on the Palestinians! Nor should those situations be conflated w/the Palestinian situation in order to INCREASE THE COMPLEXITIES of the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations and thus derail those negotiations. There obviously has to come a time when the Muslim world is confronted on these INSANELY STUPID Muslim strictures like having infidels living amongst Muslims while paying for the privilege of doing so.

            In the meantime, we have Israel, a sovereign nation only because she was given the opportunity to regain her footing in the region, refusing to recognize or permit the construction of a Palestinian government because the geographic issues are difficult for Israel to contemplate. Sadly, that’s not only because Israel rebuilt the Israeli nation on land that was given to Israel, but because Israel also won land through war that was meant for the Palestinians. Sure, some of that land was won militarily so there’s some justification for not giving it back, but in reality, giving it back is one of the few overtures Israel could make to the Palestinians that would mean something. Besides, there are significant Israeli citizens and they’re not just Israeli citizens, they are former MAJOR GENERALS and DIRECTORS of her intelligence services, who say it’s entirely feasible for Israel to tolerate a Palestinian state as a neighbor. What’s more, they’re saying they could return much of the land that’s been taken over the years and still have a defensible Israel.

        • objectivefactsmatter

          States don’t get built by passively demanding them. So even the “good guys” in your argument are failures with nobody to blame but their own selves.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          If there was an existing “paleswine” that Israel usurped, then paleswine would NOT be waiting to declare it’s independence.

          No paleswine army because there was no paleswine.

          And the behavior of the self professed Religion of Peace – of Arabs killing Arabs, demonstrates the impossibility of any secular, peaceful, religion of peace entity.

          Israel guarantees its existence not with some Eurotrash or UN diplomacy, but superior weapons, values, morality and determination.

          Egypt is one of the oldest civilizations in the world, yet only recently began to experiment with Democracy.

          Americana, you are a jackass. I wish you would go on a Conflict Tour of Gaza and try your hand at Human Sheild slumming.

          • Americana

            You go first and do some role playing. I’d love to hear you trumpet “Might makes right” in the middle of Gaza when the Palestinians aren’t ever given the chance to militarize. You say Israel owes her existence to superior weapons, values, morality and determination. But during this incursion, the Israelis have discovered that the Palestinians have finally begun to achieve a reasonable degree of strategy. and, sadly, more Israeli soldiers have consequently died even if the Palestinians still are under equipped in terms of weaponry. I’m not optimistic “might makes right” is going to hold things together forever.

            What is going on in other regions under other Muslim groups is not necessarily indicative of the relationship a Palestinian state would have w/Israel. So opting for claims of moral superiority on all sorts of spurious grounds is simply not on, especially not on the grounds of claiming Israeli fighters were freedom fighters and Muslim freedom fighters are all obscene terrorists. FGM? Not all Muslims practice FGM. Some do, many don’t. Slaughter practices? Halal slaughter and kosher slaughter are identical in technique. There are enough Palestinians and Israelis who are exchanging honest evaluations of peace proposals, they should be taken seriously in spite of all the strum and drang of other Palestinians who believe in total liberation of Palestine from Israel.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Moronicana, I’m not the one who believes that you can reason with Fascist Hamass and convince it to renounce its genocidal 1988 charter. You are.

            You ask Israel to take risks. Are you willing to risk your life and argue with the Taliban and demand that it permit girls to go to school? How about defending girls in Sudan who are forced to undergo FGM?

            Considering that Arabs/Muslims can’t get along with each other, explain how Arabs/Muslims would be able to coexist with Infidels???

          • Americana

            I don’t necessarily believe you can reason w/the most radical Hamas figures so I’m not sure why you’re bringing those people up as if I’ve ever said one could reason w/them. I just don’t believe they are the insurmountable obstacle you think they are. There’s not any real need to get Hamas to renounce its charter since Israel is ALREADY in that position of having to cope w/Hamas and its charter. My feeling is if you get the majority of Palestinians on board w/a peace treaty, the Hamas holdouts will eventually be the political outliers. Besides, Israel is taking just as much risk by NOT making a peace treaty and what we’re seeing — and hearing — from all Muslim militias is evidence of that.

            Why you are suddenly lumping all these other issues in w/this question of whether Israel can negotiate w/Hamas is sort of odd. But, of course, if you’re asking me how I’d handle the issues facing countries and communities who are in imminent danger from Islamists, it’s essential to fight the Islamist demands to keep Muslims bassackward. But the Palestinians aren’t saying that girls can’t go to school through high school and college. That’s another group of Muslims entirely, that’s coming from the ISIS and ISIL guys.

            How to protect and defend girls’ rights to go to school? I would temporarily militarize the schools and put military units on patrol around them. It might even be that boarding schools might be the way to go for some years until these militias’ activities are quelled. How to protect girls against FGM? Check the girls a few times annually for intact genitalia. Make sure they know if they’re threatened w/FGM they can come to someone for help to avoid becoming a victim. Make it known that if any girls are butchered by FGM, there will be severe consequences. If you’d prefer to read the opinions of a Pakistani girl on these issues, then read the autobiography of Malala Yousafzai, the Pakistani girl who was shot in the head by the Taliban. Her father was an educator and he wanted his firstborn, his daughter Malala, to have whatever level of educational attainment she was capable of achieving. They risked everything to bring education to their village in the Swat Valley and most of the girls in their village wished to remain in school. I trust in the fact there are just as many, if not more, Muslims who AREN’T WILLING to live under sharia law of the most brutal kind. They may like sharia law for business and family matters but they’re not willing to lose hands and suffer stoning, etc., etc. Look at what happened in Egypt!#$! There is modernity creeping in to Islam and Muslim populations whether you believe it or not.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            What would you say to Hamass to convince them to rescind their fascist, genocidal charter of 1988 (the same year that Pan Am 103 was bombed) and agree to live and let live with Jews and Christians?

          • IslamDownpressesHumanity

            Has Americana ever expressed opposition to the charter of Hamas?

          • Americana

            Why on earth would I need to express opposition to and denounce the Hamas charter when it’s totally obvious I think it’s a pile of useless, genocidal crud that’s preventing other Palestinians from reconciling themselves w/this situation in a SENSIBLE, HUMANE FASHION?

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Nor are many of them willing to tolerate a non-Muslim sovereign on any “Muslim lands.”

          • IslamDownpressesHumanity

            Aren’t “given a chance to militarize”. What do you call over 12000 rockets fired into Israel? What you do you call and AT rocket fired into a school bus? What do you call terrorist tunnels?

        • IslamDownpressesHumanity

          “Palestinians”? What are those? You mean Arabic muslimes? They have their state: Jordan. What they want to do is take someone else’s state.

    • 1Indioviejo1

      If you are a Muslim, then you accept Mohammed as your prophet. Mohammed was a pedophile, remember Aisha, a murderer, remember the Banu Quraysh, a slave trafficker and selling people is still in the Koran. So your totalitarian cult makes you and your people enemies of humanity and outlaws.

    • wileyvet

      Maybe you should learn a little about Islamic barbarities practiced throughout Palestine from A.D. 634 until the collapse of The Ottoman Empire. Every new Muslim Caliphate, whether Ummayad, Abbasid, Mamaluke, Seljuk, Turcoman and Ottomans, relentlessly persecuted, oppressed, and slaughtered the local inhabitants, for nearly 1300 years. Whole towns were razed to the ground. Churches and synagogues destroyed and replaced with Mosques. Thousands of people murdered, enslaved or exiled, and their belongings turned over to Muslims. The Pact of Umar was implemented, as reported by the Islamic historian al-Tabari between him and the Christian Patriarch of Jerusalem. Exorbitant Jizya imposed creating financial hardships, added to myriad other miseries under Muslim rule. The entire history of Muslim rule there is one of continuous upheaval and destruction.
      Now would you like to talk about the viscious campaigns of the crumbling Ottomans against the Greeks of Western Anatolia, and the expulsion of 200,000 of them in the early 20th century. Or how about the forced dislocation of Armenians by 800,000 Muslims that the Young Turk government forced into traditional Armenian lands, with the resultant genocide by Muslims of 1.3 million Armenians at the hands of Turks and Kurds. Or how about the Turkification process that destroyed all other languages and religions, and then the ultimate expulsion of 100,000 more Greeks from Istanbul contrary to the Treaty of Lausanne of 1923.
      It is and was the supremacist nature of Islam to rule the world that contributed to the barbarous practices of the Ottoman Turks to ruthlessly crush the nationalist aspirations of ethnic European and Middle Eastern groups who were throwing off the yoke of Islamic authority as the last Caliphate was in its death throws. In Greece, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Syriacs, Circassians, Armenians et al. The loss of territory and Islamic rule was an affront to the “right” of Muslims to rule others. Palestine was no different. Ottoman depredations were still being committed against Jews and Christians right up until General Allenby took Palestine. There was an Arab massacre of Jews in the nascent town of Tel Aviv in 1917, Hebron 1929, Haifa 1936. The list goes on.
      And for your claim that your ancestors lived in your village since the time of David and Solomon is specious at best and a total fabrication at worst is an example of the lack of objective and historical reality that Muslims hold. Your religion, as practice and implemented by the man you revere as an excellent and sinless example of humanity started the war with the Jews in Medina in A.D. 624. All Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabia by the second Caliph Umar by A.D. 638. Your Koran is a manifesto of hate, bigotry and intolerance of ALL other beliefs. Persecution and slaughter in the name of Allah is acceptable, but you losing your home due to a genocidal war launched by your co-religionists somehow makes YOU the victim. It is your damn Islam that has been the problem for 14 centuries. The intolerance and hypocrisy of Muslims knows no bounds. If the Arab armies had exterminated the Jews in 1948 as your family no doubt wanted to happen, then you would have moved from the mud house of your ancestors into a modern home with running water, formerly owned by a now dead Jew, and expropriated anything you could get your hands on. Think about.

      • Americana

        There’s no doubt the Muslims have got to stop this BS about forced proselytization and their inability to live alongside other faiths. They should see living alongside other faiths as a means of testing their own faith.

        • wileyvet

          I appreciate your sentiments, but Islam, as revealed to Muhammad, is the final testament to all mankind. It is supercessionist, and valid and eternal for all time. The prophet is held as the highest moral and ethical person who ever lived. It is the example of him that Muslims seek to emulate. All the accepted canonical Islamic sources that comprise Islamic beliefs, do not paint a very good picture of the man that epitomizes moral virtue. On the contrary. So the Muslim example of righteousness and ethics is completely inverted. Islam is Muhammad, and Muhammad is Islam. To reform Islam would simply be to go back to the Islamic state of Medina, and subsequent time of the 4 rightly guided Caliphs: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. To transform Islam into something benign is a non starter. Not one word can be changed in the Koran, as it is the exact word of Allah. And no questioning of the teachings of Muhammad is allowed because it is blasphemy, punishable by death. Islam is inherently intolerant, because it is supremacist. Muslims, even the lowliest fellah, are told by the clerics that they are the best people, and anyone not a Muslim is Kafir, dirty and vile. All unbelievers are the enemy of Allah, and must be fought and subdued. Therefore it is the birthright of all Muslims to rule over infidels. The circular reasoning of Muslims, when explaining their Koran, and Muhammad as a prophet of Allah is as such. The Koran is the word of Allah, because Muhammad said so, and Muhammad is his prophet because the Koran says so. Muhammad and Allah are a package deal, and the Shahada makes this clear. A muslim must believe in both him and Him. So no tinkering with either the Koran or Sunnah is possible, therefore Islam cannot become moderate, tolerant, inclusive or respectful towards others. Thus they cannot coexist, as humans have learned to do so, and indeed must do so to have a civil society. The Sharia which Muslims wish, nay, are compelled to impose on infidels is so contrary to the conditions necessary for such a functional society, that it needs to be categorically, and unambiguously rejected for the barbarous and morally and ethically repugnant system it is.

          • Americana

            Everything that is human can be reconfigured by humans. It just takes the right humans at the right moment in history. I think we’ve reached that point where the flaws in islam have to be ejected and rejected in Islam.

          • Webb

            Your insane ranting is not an opinion. It is demonic torment for the sake of demonic torment.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            OK, yeah…but bullshit because you’re using sophistry. Why is Islam still living in the 7th century?

            Answer that question.

            Basically because modernism and reform are anti-Islamic. You can’t “model” the future of Islam by comparing it to others that are in fact not compatible with it. There is nothing in the world truly comparable to Islam.

            If you want your commentary to have any value, you’d better start trying to understand the truth of what I’ve just told you. And probably not for the first time, but that’s OK. You’ll get it.

          • Americana

            The greater Muslim world is quite backward for all sorts of reasons. But that’s not always because Islam demands a bassackward Bedouin lifestyle. After all, some of the richest countries and the richest individuals on Earth right now are in the Middle East. From their geography to their remoteness, the Arab countries aren’t in the forefront of the developing world other than in those locales where natural resources are bringing in the wealth. Obviously, there’s conflict over the modernity permitted by Islam but there are countries and individuals who are fighting for greater freedom however that might eventually be achieved. I think you all are forgetting just how many MAJOR scientists of the first few millennia A.D. were killed by the Catholic Church for their heretical scientific findings. Talk about modernity having had to smack some Roman Catholics upside the head after the fact!

            If you want your commentary to have any value, you’d best be aware of all the ongoing struggles within Islam and the Arab world. Don’t just rely on the spoon fed bits of information you get from this web site. I’ll never forget being told on Jihad Watch there’s no way that a woman would have been the Dean of a university in the Middle East. The JWers went on and on and on about the fact that no woman, and definitely no infidel, could ever be in charge over Muslims. I know it’s possible because my sister was Dean of a women’s college in the Middle East. She also helped w/the subversive efforts of the female students to conduct their “National Women’s Drive Day” and sundry other subversive actions the female students took against the religious police who curtail their lives. I also mentioned that the newest Saudi university was conducting an international search for faculty for its new university for the sciences to bolster my claim about my sister having been the Head Dean at a women’s college there. When I produced the web site w/the international advertisement seeking professors to join the faculty of the new King Abdullah University of Science and Technology, the Jihad Watch folks again proclaimed that no infidels would ever be allowed to be ranked above Muslims in the university hierarchy. Other JWatchers simply ignored the proof that the talent search was international and that it obviously extended to infidels of every nationality. (I’m not sure if an Israeli scientist would make it through the selection process but…) Islam will crack under the growing strain of human thought just like any other human endeavor has been cracked — by later humans who decide the original game plan just doesn’t cut it. Will it be the long-awaited Mahdi who calls for the reformation of Islam? I’m assuming so but that’s an infidel’s guess.

            http://www.kaust.edu.sa/index.html

          • objectivefactsmatter

            You’re again not following the conversation but ranting about things mentioned.

            How is an infidel going to lead to a reformation of Islam?

          • Americana

            I never said it would be an infidel who leads an Islamic Reformation, where’d you get that idea? Trying to denigrate the idea on the basis of my not knowing enough about Islam for that idea of YOURS to be seen for what it is, a non-starter? As for you inserting your ever-ready slam dunk label that you believe nullifies my perspective — “Progressive” — you’re foolish if you think that labeling someone automatically nullifies their point of view.

            There is enough radical Muslim ferment there’s no telling what will happen in the Islamic world in the immediate future, especially given the Muslim are expecting the Mahdi at any time. The self-declared Caliphate of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi went over like a lead balloon w/the Muslim world. Lots of people have been killed trying to fight totalitarianism, but there have ALWAYS been those individuals who’ve risen up against totalitarianism and fought it to a draw or better. Islam is no different just because it’s got all these built-in doctrinal strictures you claim will always prevent any change. The fact Islam has been able to suffocate and crush dissenting viewpoints up until the modern day is indicative only of the stranglehold that doctrinaire Islamists have had on the faith.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            OCDcana,

            Tell us of your childhood. Where were you educated.

            Compute Pi by hand, to one million digits.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Or dial back on the espresso. Do something…different…

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “I never said it would be an infidel who leads an Islamic Reformation, where’d you get that idea?”

            By definition a reformer who is not referencing Mohamed as the example and the Koran as Allah’s word is an infidel.

            The only way to reform Islam is to have believers revert back to Christianity or belief in the Old Testament. That means wiping out the Koran. How can anyone do that?

            You’d have to proclaim Mohamed as a “true prophet” while aligning his beliefs with the OT for a start. because they say Islam is already “the religion” so you’d have to build it around some text that has evidence supporting it.

            You “reform” Islam with logic and evidence, and they become Christians, Jews and atheists. That’s not really a reformation.

          • Americana

            I’m not going to argue the mechanics of how a Muslim would engineer the reformation of his/her faith. The Muslim would have to be motivated by a vision that testified to the validity of their novel perspective to take the risks involved w/this reform. I think the horrors of this period are going to expose an awful lot of Musims to an awful lot of introspection. Will that lead some Muslim to see a different vision for the future of Islam? Having you folks constantly eviscerate a possible Muslims reformation as if it could never happen is ludicrous considering that humans have done this to every other religion. You want to make Islam out to be a monolithic juggernaut that can’t be controlled, go ahead. There are all sorts of Muslims who are running away from the uncontrollable Muslims involved in the juggernaut jihadi so there are at least as many Muslims who want a less militant, less grotesque Islam as there are Muslims who want the other.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “I’m not going to argue the mechanics of how a Muslim would engineer the reformation of his/her faith.”

            Of course not. You just assume that “progress” is innate to human activity and given enough time…

            “The Muslim would have to be motivated by a vision that testified to the validity of their novel perspective to take the risks involved w/this reform. I think the horrors of this period are going to expose an awful lot of Musims to an awful lot of introspection.”

            No horror can falsify Islamic narratives. Islam is in part about excusing and explaining why Muslims must do apparently horrible things to please Allah. Some times the horror is evidence of faith.

            “Will that lead some Muslim to see a different vision for the future of Islam?”

            Yes, to apostasy. One at a time. And they’re killed or run off as they articulate their respective new visions.

            “Having you folks constantly eviscerate a possible Muslims reformation as if it could never happen is ludicrous considering that humans have done this to every other religion.”

            Because religions are not fungible. And like I said, the process that led to Christian reformation would have already taken Islam to it’s “reformed” place. And it sort of did.

            What has changed is that people can communicate more effectively today. That is why the reformation happened in Christianity. You know, like five centuries ago. So what is Islam waiting for? Don’t give me this birthday crap about how it usually takes a certain number of centuries. It takes the right circumstances and the ship has sailed if you want the ummah to react like the Christian community. You can’t pin your hopes on fungible religion theory.

            The only way Islam could be reformed would be for them to clearly lose sovereignty over their subjects. If for example some force separated the authority believers have over skeptics, then discourse would open upon among believers. And without that, you just have the texts and people with weapons.

            If we had imposed a more clearly articulated constitution on Iraq, maybe they would have evolved in to something closer to what we see in Indonesia or Malaysia. But we didn’t do that.

            We don’t need another Indonesia or Malaysia, what we need is momentum where people feel that if they speak up they will not be severely punished.

            Then it can evolve. I can’t see it happening without supporting guys like Sisi and Mubarak. And if we had done that and imposed a liberty-oriented constitution on Iraq, that would have added to the impetus for Egypt to evolve in the same direction.

            But communists and their dupes won’t let us do that productively. They’re too busy defending Muslims as victims of “colonialism” (free markets).

            “You want to make Islam out to be a monolithic juggernaut that can’t be controlled, go ahead.”

            It’s not monolithic. But the framework does have a clear out of bounds territory that leads to alienation and death of you violate it. It’s close enough to monolithic for many of our discussions.

            “There are all sorts of Muslims who are running away from the uncontrollable Muslims involved in the juggernaut jihadi so there are at least as many Muslims who want a less militant, less grotesque Islam as there are Muslims who want the other.”

            Yes, but they’re not running to any political or philosophical vehicles that lead to change. They’re running for their own lives and freedom from persecution.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Meanwhile Muslims in the UK, instead of adopting British, Western values of equality and tolerance, Muslims are demanding that the UK adopt Muslim, Koranic values.

            And shockingly some in the UK are submitting to Islamism.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “…you’re foolish if you think that labeling someone automatically nullifies their point of view.”

            You’re foolish to try to put words in my mouth. Everyone considers themselves to be progressive. It’s not about labels. It’s about which attitude you have towards progress.

            You’re absolutely a Critical Theory dupe. There is no question about it. That is where your idea of progress comes from. And people that label themselves as “Progressive” are also dupes of CT and some are outright communists. But that’s another conversation.

            I think the main lesson here is that you have to understand criticism before it can be of any value to you.

            And nobody is trying to nullify your views. You do that on your own. We’re trying to help you see from a wider perspective so that you understand your views are myopic. You’re looking at the forest and you have a lot of confidence in your knowledge of the trees that you see. You’re missing the forest view as a whole.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “There is enough radical Muslim ferment there’s no telling what will happen in the Islamic world in the immediate future, especially given the Muslim are expecting the Mahdi at any time.”

            Which Muslims are expecting the Mahdi at any time?

            “The self-declared Caliphate of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi went over like a lead balloon w/the Muslim world.”

            Because historically Muslims intuitively clamor from all over the world every time one of them announces their leadership. Right?

            “Lots of people have been killed trying to fight totalitarianism, but there have ALWAYS been those individuals who’ve risen up against totalitarianism and fought it to a draw or better.”

            Um…

            “Islam is no different just because it’s got all these built-in doctrinal strictures you claim will always prevent any change.”

            Wait, what? So history…yada yada yada, it’s all the same…totalitarians have their day and then others prevail because that’s the nature of man? Is that what you’re implying? Islam is no different than everything else? Um, wrong. Absolutely wrong.

            Islam is a criticism and a claimed “correction” of monotheism. And since they want to kill people that disagree with them, the other monotheists don’t often engage in debate directly with them. K? So there’s that. They’re largely isolated intellectually. OK?

            OTOH, the very existence of thriving Jewish and Christian communities also gives Muslims confidence in their own Islamic worldview. So in reality Islam is special because there is no other ideology that claims to so comprehensively account for everything that exists today and everything that existed in the past. And anyone that disagrees with you in a way that insults your view is subject to death.

            Please give me other examples of ideologies that are even close to parallel.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            And by the way, everything you’ve said here is derived from CT derivatives. That’s where “Progressives” get their ideas. There is no question that you are a CT dupe. One can easily categorize you as a CT or Progressive dupe.

            But really all I was trying to do was to nudge you in to a little self reflection.

          • Americana

            God, please would you stop this pathetic ranting about “Progressives” and “progressive dupes” and “CT dupes.” It’s like listening to some propagandist from Radio Free Cuba who doesn’t have the brains to think outside the script he’s given…

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Interesting because CT is used to create a lot of propaganda. Why don’t you learn to understand the criticism before you lash out?

            CT is not forbidden, but it is myopic. And people tend to use it for comprehensive analysis without realizing how this leads to distorted analysis.

            And the biggest fundamental flaw with doing that is that CT derivatives almost always assume that changing something will lead to improvement organically.

            It’s like walking through a building that needs some repair, and then coming up with a plan to destroy it or overhaul it without clearly evaluating the improvements proposed first. The focus is on the criticism and whether the negative criticism is “valid” and “change inspiring.”

            When you make assumptions like “every other religion has reformed itself (which is false, but even if it was a true statement) you are pulling a classic CT stunt. Just look for Critical Religion Theory or something like that. See how far you deviate from that bologna.

            Critical Theory and the Importance of Religious Studies

            Example:

            http://www.equinoxpub.com/blog/2012/12/critical-theory-and-the-importance-of-religious-studies/

            Posted on December 19, 2012 by mattsheedy

            by Steven Ramey

            A common response to critical theory’s critiques of categories related to “religion” is that it undermines the rationale for the academic study of religion. If the categories do not exist, then what is the point of the field? Because people employ the categories strategically, promoting various interests, religious studies becomes more relevant as critical theory facilitates analysis of those strategic applications of the category.

            As an example, a Pakistani newspaper reported that, on December 1, a demolition crew destroyed several homes in Karachi, Pakistan, leaving approximately 40 Hindus homeless. The crew also reportedly demolished a temple, and residents placed images from that temple on the rubble in protest. The temple’s destruction, not the loss of homes, was the focus of a BBC News article. The head of the Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti shrine in Ajmer, an important Sufi shrine in India, condemned the action as being against Islam, but, according to the Hindustan Times, his condemnation focused on the temple, saying, “Islam does not allow anyone to damage a religious place.” The article says nothing about the homes destroyed. The President of Pakistan ordered an inquiry into the incident, to which a government officer reportedly responded by denying that the temple had been destroyed.

            As these responses suggest, those elements of human society that receive the label “religion” can generate stronger emotions that produce attention, special protections, and prohibitions or stronger opposition. The shrine leader declaring the destruction to be outside Islam, the government official denying that a temple was damaged, and residents placing deity images on the rubble each employ the category “religion” as a political act, not in the sense of establishing public policy but in the sense of negotiating competing claims and interests.

            Critical theory in religious studies encourages a focus on the political nature of any attempt to determine what the “real” boundaries of religion or a specific religion are. Using critical theory to focus our attention on the strategic use of religion to promote a position or diminish the assertions of others makes religious studies increasingly relevant for contemporary society.

          • IslamDownpressesHumanity

            “How is an infidel going to lead to a reformation of Islam?”
            Why, with his head of course! Whether or not it’s attached to a living body is another matter entirely.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            Do you think Japan would be the third largest economy (or fourth of you believe World Bank) today if we had not forced them to submit and face the limits of their Shinto beliefs?

            That’s the kind of event required for ANY hope of some “reformation.” Appeasement reinforces their beliefs and violent tendencies. We’ve created a marketplace for violence with very good returns on their jihad investments. We make jihad lucrative.

            And you’re at the forefront of asking for more incentives to create havoc.

          • Americana

            We forced the Japanese to submit but we weren’t the ones to change the Japanese mindset about what is of value post-WW II. That was a decision they made themselves and their economic miracle was brought about by the underlying Japanese sociology as well as the unique individuals who began some of the Japanese companies that experienced such rousing worldwide success.

            Yes, I’d agree appeasement is a dangerous game w/Muslims, but there is enough of a peace movement within the Palestinians I believe it’s worth the risk. Whether a peace agreement would have other unintended consequences among the oncoming jihadist regime(s) is of no real significance viz the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Those jihadis are coming and must be beaten back as another separate and distinct challenge from the Palestinians.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Worth the risk?

            YOU put your fat azz on the risk line toots.

            You are incredibly naive and stupid.

            You think that ISIS are open minded to your values?

            Go ahead. Make their day. We see how Eurabia is in free fall and Islamists make increasingly onerous demands.

            You are an example of how stupidity reigns in Eurabia.

          • Americana

            Stupidity of all kinds reigns as far as Islam goes. Just because you’ve had anti-jihadist propagandists who’ve kept on claiming that Islam is a creed of blah blah blah, you’ve allowed the jihadi mindset to build up to a political wave throughout the Middle East. By pretending that Israel and the West could continue to keep the Palestinians in limbo, you’ve created a jihad juggernaut in the region. You all should be very proud of your probity and political farsightedness. NOT.

            Where have I ever said ISIS would be open-minded about my values or Western values? You don’t see that Israel will be facing this Palestinian jihad for the foreseeable future if she doesn’t make the right choices? For now, the Palestinians may not be embracing the assistance offered by the ISIS guys, but if the Palestinians do decide to embrace ISIS for their own purposes, look out Israel. As far as I’m concerned, Israel stands a better chance of negotiating w/the Palestinians than she does against a united ISIS and Palestinian jihad. This idea that any and all peace treaties w/the Palestinians would be appeasement given the realities of the situation is absurd.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “We forced the Japanese to submit but we weren’t the ones to change the Japanese mindset about what is of value post-WW II.”

            Right. They held prayers and then decided to change without even knowing what we did.

            “That was a decision they made themselves…”

            After seeing what we imposed.

            “…and their economic miracle was brought about by the underlying Japanese sociology as well as the unique individuals who began some of the Japanese companies that experienced such rousing worldwide success.”

            We unquestionably shaped post-war Japan. We forced them to turn from imperialism to self-reliance with lots of help. That is in no way a denial of any individual’s role in the various outcomes. It was a clash of civilizations and we won, and then they decided to go along with adaptation. We’re close allies and all better for it because we learned valuable lessons from Japan as well. But we, without doubt, shaped their future for them.

            You have no clue what you’re talking about.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “Yes, I’d agree appeasement is a dangerous game w/Muslims, but there is enough of a peace movement within the Palestinians I believe it’s worth the risk.”

            They’re pawns. The peace movement has zero currency. Everyone else knows they’re being used.

            “Whether a peace agreement would have other unintended consequences among the oncoming jihadist regime(s) is of no real significance viz the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Those jihadis are coming and must be beaten back as another separate and distinct challenge from the Palestinians.”

            There are no powerful non-jihadis among Muslim leaders in area.

          • Americana

            The Palestinians are their own entity. They may be being used in some half-assed way by other Arab entities but, fundamentally, the Palestinians are on their own viz the Israelis. If the Palestinians came to an acceptable peace treaty w/the Israelis, the Jordanians wouldn’t necessarily choose to upset the apple cart even if they still continued to believe Israel shouldn’t be in the region.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “The Palestinians are their own entity.”

            Whatever that might mean at any given moment.

            https://www.facebook.com/WeAreAllPalestinians

            “They may be being used in some half-assed way by other Arab entities but, fundamentally, the Palestinians are on their own viz the Israelis.”

            They’re in a state of limbo because of their own choices. Some of these same “people” (political identity) also serve in Israel’s congressional political body. So they’re not disenfranchised for reasons other than their rejection of the sovereign authority of Israel. Period.

            “If the Palestinians came to an acceptable peace treaty w/the Israelis, the Jordanians wouldn’t necessarily choose to upset the apple cart even if they still continued to believe Israel shouldn’t be in the region.”

            Jordan is not the problem. Where did that statement come from? Jordan is perhaps the most honest player in the region after Israel.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Americana, Have you ever been tested for Aspergers or OCD?

            There is an excellent cure for OCD, go to Iraq and convince ISIS to stop slaughtering prisoners.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “The greater Muslim world is quite backward for all sorts of reasons. But that’s not always because Islam demands a bassackward Bedouin lifestyle. After all, some of the richest countries and the richest individuals on Earth right now are in the Middle East.”

            Straw man.

            Of course they don’t have to live like Bedouin.

            http://thinkup.ae/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/300151_2150365234917_1119949757_31898016_778280475_n.jpg

            If we come and develop their natural resources and pay them in piles of gold, they can move in to Western style housing until the oil runs out.

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “From their geography to their remoteness, the Arab countries aren’t in the forefront of the developing world other than in those locales where natural resources are bringing in the wealth.”

            Yeah…and technically we’re the ones driving the development even there. Get it?

            “Obviously, there’s conflict over the modernity permitted by Islam but there are countries and individuals who are fighting for greater freedom however that might eventually be achieved.”

            But the struggle is always to achieve “modernity” (parity or exceeding the West and the rest in power and wealth) under Islam.

            The controversies today that look like tensions with defining social progress have to do with people that want better lives and those that want strict sharia. The sharia adherents give them leeway for material reasons, but will quickly cut their throats if they perceive a fundamental threat to sharia.

            Of course all humans have material wants and needs. Of course all people strive for material gains. But societies work together according to established frameworks. And that explains not only why they believe what they do about their religion, but it explains just about every other cultural limit imposed on its own members.

            Western societies have a superior framework for organizing productive activities. It’s not because we’re thieves or because we’re just lucky to have resources. People migrate according to their needs and values.

            Both Islam and Judeo Christian cultures originated from the same geographical locations. It wasn’t luck. Luck is roaming around for centuries with nothing but dust and camel piss to drink and then having Christians come and help you find and develop your oil reserves.

            I suppose we can say that individuals are lucky when their born in Judeo Christian societies, but with regard to judging culture and society, Judeo Christian societies make the “luck.”

          • objectivefactsmatter

            “Don’t just rely on the spoon fed bits of information you get from this web site. I’ll never forget being told on Jihad Watch there’s no way that a woman would have been the Dean of a university in the Middle East. Et cetera.”

            Maybe some day you can join the conversations here.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Get the mahdi to change the koran and excise the genocidal passages which inspire Al Qada, Muslim Brotherhood, Taliban, Boko Haram, ISIS to murder innocents.

            The madhi should be receptive to your persuasive Infidel views.

          • kertitor

            Hey Amcana, go and spread your wisdom in a mosq. In any arab country. You would not last 5 minutes.

          • Drakken

            Yes! And the rainbows and unicorns that you wished for will magically appear! Brilliant!

          • objectivefactsmatter

            You can’t be a Muslim and consider the Koran as created by humans. And you can get killed just suggesting it.

            You’re wildly delusional because you don’t even pay attention to the valid points that peole keep making. You just rant over them and ignore the rest.

            Conversations with you are not progressive. They’re “Progressive.”

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Write a book on the many problems in the Koran.

            Ask Salman Rushdie for advice.

            Make a film about the problems in the Koran, ask the family of Theo Van Gogh for advice.

          • objectivefactsmatter
        • Drakken

          Your wishful utopian thinking knows no bounds. Maybe the Easter Bunny will visit me this year.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            The Taliban and the Ayatollahs hate the Easter Bunny.

    • Gee

      Funny – but in 1947 NONE of it was yours. Nice lie – but still a lie.

      As for your bombardment claims – Israel had almost no artillery during the war and not a single bomber. So if there was a bombardment it is because your village fought. Guess what according to international law – your village was a legitimate target.

      Your claims about your ancestors is an outright lie as well. We were there thousands of years before you thieves came and stole our lands.

      You started the war and now whine about the results – too bad.

    • Bulan Sabriel

      In 1947, “Palestinians” didn’t call or think of themselves as such. They were Arabs of Sham. And they did not “own” the land. Most were landless peasants and recent immigrants. Public lands were owned by the government not the “Palestinians”. Moreover, in 1967, 3/4 of 1922 “Palestine” was a sovereign Jew-free Arab state, TransJordan.
      From 1948 until 1967, Gaza was controlled by Egypt and East Jerusalem and the West Bank were controlled by Jordan. The PAlestinians tried to destroy Israel. In 2014, Palestiniasn have Jordan and Gaza and most of the West Bank.

      You lost your home? Boo freaking ho. More Jews were expelled from Muslim lands after 1947 than Arabs from Israel. Israel took the Jews in. It did not turn them into cannon fodder for a war of extermination as the Muslims did with “Palestinians”.

    • Webb

      Good. Now go farther away, and return not.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      The analog to the USA is what? Who was the sovereign of Palestine in 1947?

    • Drakken

      You inbred effing savages lost the wars you started, so cry me a fuc**ng river. To the victors go the spoils and you ain’t getting your sh*t back.

  • KelliAFranklin

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  • 1Indioviejo1

    There is a threat to Obama’s life from the terrorist ISIL Caliph in his own country. I am sure they have sleeper cells in the US because the Boston Brothers were also Muslim terrorist in an open franchise of terror to do us harm. Obama will rue the day he castrated the FBI, CIA, and eroded the finest military this world has ever seen. I bet he needs them now.

  • Americana

    Whoever would claim Israel is responsible for the wacko sadistic behavior of the ISIS and ISIL jihadis in Syria? Sure, Islam is responsible for atrocities and insane socio-political craziness. It’s up to Islam to reform itself and recognize these practices are OUTMODED and they deserve to be kicked to the curb. Islam is 1,400 years behind the times.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      How is Islam supposed to reform itself? It already has been “reformed” by broad dissemination of the fundamental texts.

      Now what?

      Why would one religion reform itself shortly after the printing press is available in wide use and the other religion needs another five hundred years or more? How does that make sense?

  • Bulan Sabriel

    No one was entrapped by the
    FBI. These are Islamists who wanted to hurt America and kill Americans
    and needed only an opportunity to do so.
    All the FBI did was show
    that “moderate Muslims” are collaborators unwilling or unable to do
    their patriotic duty of reporting Jihadis and Jihadi recruits. And
    this, above all is why the Muslim Brotherhood in America and the
    traitorous left will lie to stop this necessary program.

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      They always say that the Muslim had mental deficits.

      Maybe they developed a concussion and mental deficits from all the head banging on he mosque pavement. The visible contusions on the forehead of devout muslims provide evidence.

      Dementia Pugilistica meets Dementia Mosquitistica meets Dementia Mohammedtistica.

  • objectivefactsmatter

    I have a new theory about terrorism. I call it Critical Terror Theory.

    It’s all about envy and oppression. It’s the white man’s fault and by white I mean capitalist.

    Thank you very much. I’m now accepting bids for my speakng appearances.

  • objectivefactsmatter

    That’s right. They are a pool from which to draw recruits and muster resources. Just like any other enemy nation where some play a passive role and others silently object. It’s still a threat.

    They key point here is that loyalty is to the ummah and the ummah is spread around the world, mostly pretending there is no conflict between national interests of the hosts and imperial interests of the ummah. They use the religious layer of their ideology to cloak the imperialism.

  • Dr.Polidori

    This article ignores the main conclusion we should draw from the FBI’s need to manufacture terrorist plots, namely that there is no genuine Islamic terrorist threat to America. The War On Terror is a hoax, because the terror is a hoax.

    • Americana

      That’s not really true, Dr. Polidori. What’s more, you know it’s not true. There could be significant terror attacks against the U.S. at any time if the right people got their hands on the right materials and chose the right plan. That’s the trouble w/irregular terrorist warfare of this nature, in that the scale of the attacks is not really likely to be of numerical significance in terms of casualties,* but there is a fragility to our national reaction to such attacks. Our national economy and how we alter our functions after such attacks as 9/11 makes us unable to suffer 9/11 attack after 9/11 attack and come out unscathed. The nation can only brush off that kind of attack so often before irreparable damage is done.

      (*Unless the terrorists get their hands on WMDs.)

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      The Religion of Peace is a hoax.

    • objectivefactsmatter

      Sting operations prove that crime doesn’t exist too.

      Good job.

  • ArentIpretty

    So many of these so-called “human rights” organizations seem to choose the wrong side at every turn.

  • DavidG

    Just too wordy…and welcome welcome to the Agenda 21 flase flags show you don’t seem to know. Of course it’s the same old basic Oswald patsy MO they’ve been doing for decades. Yep, ” terrorism” is false flag by inflaming their basic hate. It’s not new and it’s not just Muslims so let’s stop the noise.