Ze’ev Jabotinsky to Benjamin Netanyahu On Hamas

Zeev_JabotinskyOn Friday, the former Prime Minister of Hamas, Ismail Haniyeh, threatened that Hamas would resume the rocket attacks against Israel on September 25th.  Haniyeh noted that Hamas will not demilitarize, nor will they “cooperate with any regional or international decision which would see its arsenal ‘against the resistance’ harmed.” As he said, “Weapons are the holy light of the sanctity of the struggle and the land issue, and if they want to demilitarize its weapons, we will only agree if the occupier is also demilitarized and its leaves our land.” Hamas is clear on their mission to destroy the State of Israel.

Israel, on the other hand, values human life, and takes war very seriously.  The government of Israel made the difficult decision to accept a ceasefire.  Undoubtedly, President Obama pressured Israel, and Kerry and Obama succeeded in stopping Israel from destroying Hamas. Some sort of a fragile “truce” holds and undoubtedly the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, may once again face the difficult decision very soon to strike forcefully.  Netanyahu undoubtedly values human life – and wants peace.

Netanyahu’s late father, Benzion, was known to have had a tremendous influence on his son — and Benzion was the longtime secretary to Ze’ev Jabotinsky, the founder of revisionist Zionism.  Jabotinsky was a proud, strong nationalist whose ideology has influenced the leaders of many nationalist Israelis.

Amongst Jabotinsky’s wise words as he sought to create a fighting Jewish people was the quote, “We shall create, with sweat and blood, a race of men, strong, brave and cruel.”  As Hamas threatens Israel today, what would Jabotinsky think – and what would he urge Prime Minister Netanyahu to do?

At the Third World Conference of Betar, Menachem Begin (at the time the head of Betar Poland), and Jabotinsky had an exchange of words which are interestingly relevant to the very dilemma which Netanyahu faces today as he faces an enemy on his borders – and what to do.

Begin noted:

With what means will we succeed in achieving our aims? We were taught to use moral pressure on the Western powers, and that Britain will honor her commitments to our nation. But in reality, the British only need take the Arab demands into account. The Arabs receive 95% and do not agree. They fight with their blood. And we who receive only 5%, how are we fighting? It is obvious that the disproportion of strength and honor between Israel and the Arabs must force Britain to first of all consider the Arab demands over ours. Zionism is an eternal idea but its realization will be delayed by decades if we continue on this path. We must fight – to die or conquer the mountain! The Israeli national movement began with Practical Zionism. Then there was Political Zionism. And now we must create a new Zionism – Military Zionism. Our examples will be Camillo di Cavour and Giuseppe Garibaldi. Cavour would have never achieved victory for Italy without Garibaldi.

Jabotinsky retorted:

Permit me to say a few strong words. As your teacher it is my duty. There are many types of noises in this world. There is the whistle and the noise of heavy machines. But I cannot bear the squeak of an un-oiled door because that noise serves no purpose. You are implying that there is no conscience left in the world and there is no room for such useless chattering in Betar. It is pure despair. With a broom we must sweep away these futile ideas.

One wonders: Is there any conscious in the world, when a terrorist organization is supported by countless nations?  No one in Israel wants war – but an enemy devoted to destroying the Jewish people must be countered. It is a reality which faces the State of Israel every single day.

Similarly, Netanyahu must recall the words of Jabotinsky in the legendary essay “Ethics of the Iron Wall”:

Human society is based on reciprocity. If you remove reciprocity, justice becomes a lie. A person walking somewhere on a street has the right to live only because and only to the extent that he acknowledges my right to live. But, if he wishes to kill me, to my mind he forfeits his right to exist – and this also applies to nations. Otherwise, the world would become a racing area for vicious predators, where not only the weakest would be devoured, but the best.

There is no easy way.

Ze’ev Jabotinsky wrote in 1929: “The Jewish people – all of us, 100 percent want peace.” Yet, he realized the importance of strength.

Prime Minister Netanyahu has no easy decisions – yet knows that he must protect the only Jewish State in the world.

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  • Vinegar Hill

    “if he wishes to kill me, to my mind he forfeits his right to exist – and this also applies to nations.” That sounds to me like genocide. Surely the best way to stop someone or a nation trying to kill you is find the root cause(s) of their hate and eliminate it.

    • teq

      And if the root cause of their hatred is the existence of the State of Israel should Israel be eliminated? Hamas would surely say yes but Israelis might have a different opinion.

      • Vinegar Hill

        No, Israel should not be eliminated. If a one state solution were to be introduced and Palestinians treated as equals within that state then there is a strong possibility that peace will come. You will eliminate a major cause that continually fuels the conflict.

        • StanleyT

          In other words, yes, you think Israel SHOULD be eliminated. Unfortunately for you, your method of doing so demographically is based on lies. The census numbers for “Palestinians” are false and have been proven so. Even if Israel were to annex all of Judea and Samaria, Jews would still be the majority and you would probably then insist on the “return” of millions of bogus refugees.

          Dream on.

          • TopherX

            If demographics aren’t a problem, then great. A one state solution would be way better for both people. Israel/Palestine could be an actual liberal democracy, instead of a theocracy filled with bigotry.

          • StanleyT

            Read Caroline Glick’s “The Israeli Solution”. Oh, and I presume by “theocracy filled with bigotry” you’re referring to all the Islamic states surrounding Israel – because Israel is neither a theocracy nor bigoted.

          • TopherX

            The difference is those other states don’t claim to be anything they are not. They are what they are, and for sure in a lot of cases they are worse.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Why aren’t Arab/Muslim majority states democratic, tolerant, multi-cultural havens?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Which current democratic Arab/Muslim majority state exhibits the mulch-cultural, tolerant traits that would be a role model for your One-State solution?

          • TopherX

            First of all, its not my one state solution. Its the reality Israel is making every day. The question isn’t one state or two states. Its between one state with equal rights for all, or one state where one class of people violently oppresses another. But in general, I never understand this argument of yours. Why would the bar for good behaviour be set by brutal dictators the west supports for immoral reasons? I thought Israel wanted to be part of the civilized world.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Ah! Brutal dictators. For some reason they are never on the radar screens of “progressives”.

            The Hezbullahs, Sadaams, Fascist Iran, Hamass, Taliban, ISIS, Boko Haram, – get a pass from “progressives”.

            Care to explain why? Why the blind spot?

          • TopherX

            Ya I don’t know. Why are you giving them a pass? Certainly not organizations that Israel should emulate. Why do you think civil rights is a “progressive” issue? This isn’t the enlightenment, these ideas aren’t new in any way. Also, why is Saudi Arabia missing from your list?

          • Vinegar Hill

            Then what’s the problem Stanley? Why do you have an issue with the one state solution? I am looking for peace, are you?

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          When Arabs/Muslims can’t get along with each other, see sunni/shiite, iraq/kuwait, muslim brotherhood, hamass/fatah,

          how can your Pal-e-SWINIANS get along with Israelis/Jews?

          • Vinegar Hill

            Simple….by addressing the root cause(s) of the issue. Think about it and I am sure you will agree.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            The root problem is imperialist, expansionist, misogynist, murderous Islam – at War with itself and everyone else.

            Islam must excise the hateful elements in it to restore Peace to the world.

        • Bert

          You need more than a simple opinion to solve this problem. Begin at home and explain to me what happened to the American Indians after they traded land for peace. They were nearly exterminated by the U.S. government which is still in violation of hundreds of treaties from the mid 1800′s.
          It is easy for us Americans who sit comfortably on stolen Indian land to ignore our past and pontificate on solving problems far away. Charity begins at home!!

          • Vinegar Hill

            What happened to the natives of North America is happening now in the 21st C in the Middle East. The Israelis are committing incremental genocide in Gaza. It is time to stand up and shout enough! If we do so now hopefully we will not reach a situation that exists in the USA.
            It’s good to see some support for the Palestinians. Thanks, Bert.

          • Bert

            Vinegar, you failed to answer my question because you and we are ALL occupiers of stolen land and the Indians were mostly exterminated. You are incapable of an honest answer. Note that when America commits genocide the victims DECLINE in population. While the Arabs, and their backers, scream genocide they are INCREASING in population. In the Middle East there are 6 million Jews and 350 million Arabs. Some genocide eh Vinegar? What weed are you smoking?

          • AndRebecca

            Most of the Indians intermarried. They became part of mainstream society. I know a number of people, with real Indian blood, unlike a couple of fake Leftist “White” Indians who have been in the news lately.

          • Vinegar Hill

            Sorry about that Bert but I was dealing with the present day conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. If you want to get into a general discussion regarding “we are ALL occupiers” what web page do you usually go to?

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Muslims are committing genocide all across the Middle East.

            See Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Turkey, Egypt, Fascist Iran.

            Islam needs to reform. A committee of Infidels will best be able to make necessary changes to the Koran.

          • Vinegar Hill

            “genocide” is the recommendation of this article. Why did you not address my original point?

          • Giborei1967

            “The Israelis are committing incremental genocide in Gaza…” Your own hateful, false words prove your severe anti-Semitism. The exact opposite is the reality. Arabs are raising their children with intense hatred towards Jews/Israelis, while Israelis bind and heal the wounds of Arabs, even from Syria, Gaza, etc. Where do you think Abbas and his wife had their knee surgeries? You have zero experience in Israel, you are just a taqqiya shill. I was trained to identify the enemy and you are one.

          • AndRebecca

            Now, I see a Marxist and an anti-Westerner. The Zionists have become responsible for America pre-1936? I believe our last Indian War was in 1936 or so. Although Marxist Revisionist History probably doesn’t say so. Read real American history and you will see a different story than the one you are telling. BTW, the Indian captives suffered “a fate worse than death,” but it was mild compared to what Islamists do to their own people.

        • aspacia

          The Arabs are trying to destroy Israel; read Hamas and Fatah’s charters for insight.

    • chelmer

      “Eliminate it”? And if their hatred of you provides them with a reason for living? What do you do then? Organize nighttime basketball leagues for them? Devout Muslims know only Islam. It’s not a hobby with them, or a part-time job. It’s life itself. They will not rest until the non-Muslim world is subservient to them. I don’t entirely blame them: otherwise they have to give up on the last 1000+ years as a complete flop.
      Meir Kahane was fond of saying that he was the only Israeli who took the Arabs seriously. While all his critics insisted that Arab hatred was mere bluster and rug-bargaining, he insisted that the Arabs meant what they said and said what they meant. Hamas’s charter demands the destruction of Israel. At least have the decency to admit that they aren’t lying and know their own minds. Any other approach is mere Western patronizing. and condescension. All too many people in the West think that way. When the Arab complains, they listen. But when he threatens, they stop listening, as if the Arab is too much of a baby to know his own mind.

      • Vinegar Hill

        What do you mean by your second sentence?
        The issue is about the denial of the Palestinians to have their own country in the land where they lived before 1948. Why do you try and evade the issue by smothering it in religion? Are you refusing to face reality? Why do you think that the Palestinian organisation Hamas was elected democratically by the people of Gaza? They help in the fight for freedom, dignity and for a future for the Palestinian people. The sooner you, and others like you, realise this, the sooner peace can be attained. Wake up!

        • chelmer

          “Freedom, dignity and a future for the people of Gaza.”

          http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/29/Report-Hamas-Killed-20-Palestinian-Anti-War-Protestors-in-Gaza

          Freedom. Dignity A Future. Got it.

        • AndRebecca

          Palestine is a Biblical word meaning Israel. Arabs moved into the area long after the Jews. Christians also lived in Palestine before the Arabs.

          • SCREW SOCIALISM

            Before Muslims.

          • AndRebecca

            I replied to this, but don’t see the answer. So again yes, before Arab Muslims. Arab Muslims came on the scene in the Middle East after 600 A.D. There were no Muslims anywhere before that time. I don’t remember how long it took them to get to Israel and conquer the lands, but they worked fast. Also, in 1453 the Ottoman Turks cut off all European land and sea trade routes to India. After that, the Western Europeans, including Columbus looked for alternative routes to the Orient.

          • Vinegar Hill

            I think you are a bit muddled regarding your ancient history.
            The Palestinians have occupied the land since 4th millennium BCE. They have never left their land and have a stronger historical claim to the land of Palestine than the Jews.

          • AndRebecca

            I guess my two old sets of encyclopedias are muddled. I get my info in easily researchable places. But not politically correct researchable places, like some of the internet sites.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          When Arabs can’t get along with fellow Arabs, what hope is there that Arabs can get along with others?

          See 9/11.

          • Vinegar Hill

            SS you seem to be confused. The issues between Arab states have different causes than the Israeli Palestinian conflict. You need to concentrate on the latter.

        • aspacia

          Read the following for some insight:
          http://www.palwatch.org/

    • SCREW SOCIALISM

      Is that how WW2 was won?

      At a Peace Conference table with both sides coming to an agreement and shaking hands and ending hostilities?

      • Vinegar Hill

        You are comparing chalk and cheese.
        Both sides know what the issues are and it will take a leader of strength on the Israeli side to accept this, and sign a peace agreement which satisfies both sides.

        • Attila_the_hun

          Peace is byproduct of victory. No victory no peace. Hamas understands this better than you.
          Throughout history peace always has been understood as the rules imposed by the victor. Is that simple.
          Unfortunately the Jews always have been prevented from achieving total victory.

        • SCREW SOCIALISM

          You are trying to muddy the water. It’s very simple. Euro Na zis were defeated, and they surrendered, unconditionally.

          The Sand Na zis must also surrender, unconditionally, to Infidels.

    • aspacia

      Sure, now explain why Hitler hated Jews and the U.S. mongrels?

  • SCREW SOCIALISM

    The root cause is the Koran.

  • Vinegar Hill

    Their hatred has deep roots and unless this is addressed the conflict will continue. Then you, like all of your ilk, will complain and cry foul. Where do you think that will get you?

    • Giborei1967

      Proof of your anti-Semitism (your statement that “Israel is committing incremental genocide against the Palestinians…”

      Here is the expert opinion of Nathan Sharansky: Ten years ago, Natan Sharansky explained:

      “[C]lassical anti-Semitism is aimed at the Jewish people or the Jewish religion, ‘new anti-Semitism’ is aimed at the Jewish state.”

      Mr. Sharansky devised what he called the “3D test.” The three Ds are “demonization,” “double standards” and “delegitimization.”

      “Demonization” is making bizarre, ugly claims that have no basis in reality. Comparisons between Israel and the Nazis, or assertions that Israel has been committing “genocide” against the Palestinians are examples of “demonization.” Such claims are nonsense. If Israel has been committing “genocide” against the Palestinians, then why has the population of Palestinians increased more than 600% since 1948? Israel must be the most incompetent mass murderer in the history of the world.

  • chelmer

    The assumption that this conflict is based on Israeli treatment of Arabs is a template that needs to be applied to Syria and Iraq, where Arabs are slaughtering Arabs in large numbers without a Jew in sight.
    Think about it. Or is that taking you outside of your comfort zone?

    • aspacia

      Right chelmer, Americana only targets Israel while attempting to play that he is objective.

  • Bert

    Get sober Americana! Jews lived in the land of Israel over 3,000 years ago under King David. Mohammed first began his murderous land grab about 1,400 years ago. Archaeological investigation confirms Jewish presence from ancient times. The Arab hordes did not even reach the land of Israel until the year 638. The name Palestine is artificial because the Romans invented it to change the names of Judea and Samaria. The ‘Palestinian’ hoax was concocted in 1964 by the Soviet KGB and Yasser Arafat as a political weapon against Israel. But to the lunatic hate mongers facts and truth do not matter.

    • Vinegar Hill

      I think you are a bit muddled regarding your ancient history.
      The Palestinians have occupied the land since 4th millennium BCE. The Palestinian arabs have inhabited Palestine since ancient times. They have never left and have a stronger historical claim to the land of Palestine than the Jews.

      • aspacia

        Vinegar, only recently have there been the is fake ethnic group. They are Arabs from many Arab states.

        • Vinegar Hill

          You omit the fact that under the British Mandate and within an international context the Palestinians formed a nation and that it was a provisional state. In an international context, the “Nationality law … showed that
          the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship”.
          You should join up with “Giborei1967″ and read up on the topic.

          • Giborei1967

            More taqqiya, he cannot help it! We know the real history, you do not! Stop with your stupid lies.

          • Vinegar Hill

            According to international law, when a state is dissolved (Ottoman empire) and new states are being established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality”. Following the international legal framework that had been established by the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne that ended Ottoman sovereignty over the Middle East, each of the four countries developed a separate nationality for its population through domestic legislation. Palestine was one of them and you are familiar with the other three. Israel was not mentioned.
            The trappings for a Palestinian state were in place and legalised under the Treaty of Laussane. Not a jewish state.

          • Giborei1967

            All false. King David ruled in Israel and Judea, when? In 1,280 B. C. E. (B.C. in your parlance.) There is no statute of limitations of stolen property, no matter how many subsequent thieves there were, Roman, Greek, Babylonian, Muslim and the rest of the slimes. AND the Israelis are BACK! It just kills you that the Israelis have the brave hearts and the BIG cojones to defend themselves and their land.

          • Vinegar Hill

            What do you thimk a judge would say if you tried to argue in a court of law that the land is yours because my ancestors lived there 2000 years ago?!!
            You would be laughed out of court. Do you realise the absurdity of what you are saying?
            Finally, why don’t you reply to what I have written?
            You are a loser.

          • aspacia

            Israel was recognized as a homeland for Jews when the ME was carved to bits. No Israel was not mentioned as it was known as Palestine; the U.S.A. was never mentioned until we created the country after the Revolutionary War; ditto for France known as Gaul.

            The land, including TransJordan was to be land for Jews and all residing there were to be equals, but the Muslims refused and attacked.

          • aspacia

            https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Palestine_Mandate.html

            Work on reading comprehension skills.

            Regardless, the Arabs violated international law as soon as the state of Israel was recognized.

      • Giborei1967

        How idiotic can you get? Bert’s post, just above has a decent timeline. As Joan Peters documents in her scholarly work “From Time Immemorial,” there were NO Arabs in the land prior to killer M’s destructive invasions of 632. A.D. King David ruled over Israel two thousand years BEFORE that! It is you who is ignorant of history or just doing taqqiya!

        • Vinegar Hill

          Palestine, as a region, developed long before Islam and Christianity. Indeed, proof exists that its borders date as early as the fifth century BCE. Herodotus outlined this region nearly to its present-day borders, and called it “Palestine”. He clearly relates to this in the context of the Persian invasion of Greece.
          In other writings he clearly states: “The Palestinians have long lived on the Red Sea, where they still reside. The area from the south of Syria until the border of Egypt is known by the name of Palestine.”
          You are obviously reading erroneous sources and need to be more careful.

          • Giborei1967

            You are a misinformed taqqiya LIAR. Hadrianus, of Rome renamed Israel in 132 A.D. after the Bar-Kochba rebellion of the Israelites from Provincia Judea to Provincia Palestina in an act of immense anti-Semitsm, exactly to disconnect the Jews from their land. In the end, it din’t work, the Israelis ARE BACK. I thought that you are simply mistaken, that you were a victim of misinformation. From your reply, it is clear that you are a committed liar. The Romans intended to allude to the Philistines, a sea-going people of GREEK origin, not Arab. The is no letter “P” in Arabic! How narcissistic and ego-maniacal of you to assume that you are right and the rest of us “erroneous!!?!!” Lies never win!

          • Vinegar Hill

            I don’t really care about the B-K rebellion or about the Romans alluding to the Philistines…..it does not matter what they said in relation to what I wrote or argue. I referred to Herodotus, a Greek, who was systematic, meticulous and critical in his assesments of sources which he used for his writing of history……He was free from racial prejudice. He did not confuse the Palestinians with his own people the Philistines!!
            I can offer other examples of clear references to Palestine……Agrippa 11…whom you are well versed with, was ruler of several principalities in northern Palestine….another familiar figure is Cyrus the Elder (559bc-529 bc) who extended the Persian Empire by the conquests of Babylonia…etc…. including Palestine.
            Regarding the lack of a “p” in the Arabic does not matter. Lots of languages have different alphabets and that does not hinder translations from one language to another.
            Finally, you have lost control and have forgotten the rules of protocol of hasbara. You need to remain calm and do not verbally abuse the person you are dealing with.

          • Giborei1967

            You ARE the enemy, no matter how much you deny it. All the Muslim trolls use, or actually misuse, the Hebrew word “hasbara” without actually understanding its real meaning, as used in a living language. It is very clear for people who speak the language, to single out the fakes, like you and your ilk, practicing various forms of anti-Semitism. Your systematic denial of the Hebrew/Judean/Jewish/Israeli people’s historical connection to the land DEFINES you as an anti-Semite. Therefore, you have absolutely no credibility on the issue. No one believes anything you say. Your invented facts, distorted psycho-babble is, as the Hungarians say “borso a falon.”

          • Vinegar Hill

            Go to your hasbara web page and you will clearly see that what I have written is correct. You need a refresher course. How is that “anti-Semitism”? Please explain.
            I did not deny the “Hebrew/Judean/Jewish/Israeli people’s historical connection to the land”. You are inventing things. If you don’t agree, quote my words where I said I deny the Judean right. I was explaining that the Palestinians have a claim as well, perhaps more valid than the Israelis, but I did not state that in my previous reply. You are inventing because you don’t like the truth of what I have told you and you can’t reply with a reasoned response.

          • AndRebecca

            The Israelites in the Bible itself, called Israel Palestine. And there is at least one monument in Rome regarding the sacking and plundering of Palestine with Jews being the ones getting sacked and plundered.

  • Softly Bob

    He’s asking a question, he’s not saying it’s any business of his.
    The Arab states will never evolve by the way, while they under the bogey of Islam.

  • Sara

    Please please please pick up a real history book.

  • SCREW SOCIALISM

    The horrific way Arab entities behave, treat minorities is vitally important to people who value Peace and Justice and Civilization.
    9/11 will always be associated with Islam and will be a black mark on the soul and reputation and history of Islam.

  • SCREW SOCIALISM

    JORDAN, that’s the land EAST of the Jordan, is “palestine”.

    I hope the “palestinians” appreciate and honor their King Abdullah.

  • aspacia

    THIS IS NOT A LAND DISPUTE AMERICANA! ARABS WHAT TO DESTROY ISRAEL. WHY NOT WORRY ABOUT THE 650,000 JEWS EXPELLED FROM THE ME DURING THE SAME PERIOD? Then there are the thousands of refugees after WWII who were absorbed by their original homelands.

    AMERICANA YOU ARE BLATANTLY BIAS AND A PSEUDO INTELLECTUAL.

  • aspacia

    Again Americana shows his lack of history which reveals, yet again he does not know what he is talking about:

    the·oc·ra·cy noun thē-ˈä-krə-sē
    : a form of government in which a country is ruled by religious leaders

    : a country that is ruled by religious leaders

    PLEASE LEARN FACTS BEFORE POSTING.

  • Giborei1967

    You, taqqiya liar, and anti-Semite champion (as a denier of the Jewish/Israeli/Hebrew/ people’s historical historical connection to the land) and your vapid words have no credibility, nor any redeemable value on ANYTHING to do with Israel and its people. Go back to your enemy-hole-in-the-ground lair.

  • Giborei1967

    You, taqqiya liar, and anti-Semite champion (as a denier of the Jewish/Israeli/Hebrew/ people’s historical historical connection to the land) and your vapid words have no credibility, nor any redeemable value on ANYTHING to do with Israel and its people. Go back to your enemy-hole-in-the-ground lair. As proven many times over there

  • Giborei1967

    Then why, taqqiya queen, is Israel ANY of your business?

  • Vinegar Hill

    “forfeits his right to exist…this also applies to nations” that is genocide. You are feebly trying to defend it!!!
    Why do you say killing a nation (of Palestinians) is valid because it is “self-defence”? You are advocating genocide. When will you ever learn?
    When I am commenting about the Israeli Palestinian conflict I am referring to the Palestinian people. Why do you refer to them as Arabs? When you talk about Italians do you just say they are all Europeans? Get with it!

    • Giborei1967

      As proven by scholars world-wide there is NO “Palestinian”people! Name the “P” currency, the “P” culture, the “P” language, etc…all ARAB! You are really devoid of true facts, full of vapid notions.

  • Vinegar Hill

    Well lets go for a one state solution. I am in favour of it as a solution as it has a lot of potential to bring peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Whta are your thoughts?

  • Vinegar Hill

    I am writing about the Palestinians and their struggle against Israel.. What are you writing about? Why are you avoiding the issue by bringing in “the muslims of the ME”.
    Stick to the topic and stop trying to avoid it. I think you are avoiding it because you realise that you are pursuing a lost cause.

  • Giborei1967

    Nonsense. The Arabs are simply following the Qooranic dictates against all “infidels.” They are attempting to build a global caliphate ruled by a Sharia-adherent Caliph. Only the right kind of Muslims can exist, all others “strike their necks.” So commands the Qooran.

  • TopherX

    ok a couple of things. First, I’m not here to defend other theocracies and the religious zealots who abuses their power. Second, I don’t understand how pointing to the actions of criminals somehow is meant to deflect criticism of other criminal actions. Finally, saying that all Muslim countries are “incapable” of having a tolerant society, is simply a bigoted comment not supported by reality which is that most of these countries (excluding the ones in the Middle East) are peaceful and have comparable levels of racism to that which exists in the west. Which isn’t to say they are utopic, we all have a long way to go in terms of tolerance in society. And of course, you running around painting everyone with a blood soaked brush doesn’t help.

  • Giborei1967

    Ignorant stupidity with an incurable dose of anti-Semitism=”Americana.” You know nothing about the true history of the region. You spout the Muslim/Arab barbaric Jihadi views at all times. You denied Israel’s historic connection to their own land until very recently. Now you minimize it, dismiss it as “irrelevant.” You willfully ignore the unambiguous genocidal statements, written charters, threats of the enemies of Israel. In short, you ARE an enemy of Israel and the Jewish people everywhere. It is highly dishonest that you try and present yourself as some sort of fair arbiter for the disenfranchised. Where were you when almost one million Jews were expelled in the 1950′s from Arab countries, all their property confiscated?

  • Pete

    You can’t publish stories about Iranian women tossing
    off their veils and advertising the fact on FB.

    They covered the story.
    July 14, 2014 by Deborah Weiss

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/deborah-weiss/throwing-off-the-veil/

    We are hopeful. But our hopes will be dashed like they were on the Saudi females drivers. Those women were punished.

    when women fight back and if they succeed Islam will be 1./2 the size or less than it is now Taqiyya Pet.

  • Pete

    “You can’t publish stories about Iranian women tossing
    off their veils and advertising the fact on FB.” -Americana

    FrontPage covered the story.
    July 14, 2014 by Deborah Weiss

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/deborah-weiss/throwing-off-the-veil/

    We are hopeful. But our hopes will be dashed like they were on the Saudi females drivers. Those women were punished.

  • Pete

    Since Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity are you going to give them 600 years to catch up?

    If not, how many years (mulligans) are you going to give them?

  • Pete

    You frequent the Underground? You fled Britain and moved to Massachusetts remember?

  • Pete

    So all the Jews that live in Palestine throughout the Ottoman era don’t count. I see.

  • Pete

    Taqiyya Pet,

    What were you saying about Iranian women throwing off the veil and how there should be more stories in FPM about this even though it was already carried.?

    Well FPM did not carry this story and they should. Because we would want reporting to be balance and fair and not leave anything out.

    A woman is in jail in Iran for attempting to watch a men’s volleyball game

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2014/09/12/a-woman-is-in-jail-in-iran-for-attempting-to-watch-a-mens-volleyball-game/?tid=trending_strip_3

  • Pete
  • Pete

    Americana aka Taqiyya Pet (Chia Pet)

    Tells us that Rotherham Muslim rape and pimping epidemic is just regular old crime and nothing lese.

    That is the viciousness of the person you are talking to, when you talk to the person with the cute name of Americana.

    “the UK police found a 11-year-girl being sexually abused by Muslim men and charged the girl for being drunk under age and did nothing to the Muslim men. He is also asked about the cases of fathers being arrested for trying to rescue their daughters from being raped by a group of Muslim men, while nothing was done to the Muslim men.”

  • Pete

    “the UK police found a 11-year-girl being sexually abused by Muslim men and charged the girl for being drunk under age and did nothing to the Muslim men. He is also asked about the cases of fathers being arrested for trying to rescue their daughters from being raped by a group of Muslim men, while nothing was done to the Muslim men.”

    Yup. yup just regular old crime . nothing to see here move along

    • Americana

      What does indigeneity have to do w/Muslim prostitution gangs?

      • Pete

        Everything

        It is the percentages.

  • Pete

    So you are a double refugee?

    And you still talk smack?

    Or is you sister a busy body?

    I was hopeful. and for the last 3 or 4 years there has been a whole lot of nothing.

    I saw a recent NatGEo. There was a picture of a Saudi woman. She looked perfectly normal, when she was at home. It crossed my mind if she would catch he!1 for the picture by the gov or by Saudi Imans, religious police or other loons.

    There is a famous Jihad Watch site. they had a film clip of a woman just badgered at a mall for being without a male escort. They went to the police and the police did nothing. We were happy. We all took note. We are/were hopeful. since then a whole lot of nothing.

    • Americana

      Why would I be a double refugee? I wasn’t the female in my family working at a Saudi women’s university. Why would someone like you call my sister a busybody? My sister was asked to participate in organizing the drive-in by the entire student body of the women’s university. She was honored to do so.

      I expect there will be umpteen more decades of sociological hassles over women’s rights in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Muslim world. But there are cultural differences among all the Muslim women communities of the world. Indian Muslims don’t hide beneath huge burkhas. They’re quite stripped down w/lots of bare skin.

      • Pete

        “umpteen more decades”

        So 2 or 3 centuries after women get equal rights in the west women might get rights in Saudi Arabia and other places in the Muslim world.

        am I right? 2 or 3 centuries? or will it be millenia?

        But you will still be there plugging as a proud Muslimah.

  • Pete

    Quantity has a quality all its’ own.

    The number of knuckle heads matters. That they are publicly lauded matters. Ratios matter.

    They do allow women to learn math in the Kingdom don’t they?

    You do know what a fraction is? Don’t you?

  • Pete

    Second, selective, HONEST demonization is not necessarily anything other than meant to keep Israel on the straight …

    Goebbels would be proud.

  • Pete

    Americana maybe an Arab or such a die hard Leftist here family has been involved in this issue for years.

    She said as much.

    • Giborei1967

      I think she is a Muslim from the Indian sub-continent who lies about being Catholic. I have never met a Catholic who denies their connection to Judaism, nor one whose sister “teaches” Saudi women, as she claims.

  • Pete

    You’re drunk. Lay off the sauce noob.

    It is more complicated than you lay out. For all its warts, the U.S. is better than most every country you would compare it to.

    Lydia Taft was an early forerunner in Colonial America who was allowed to vote in three New England town meetings, beginning in 1756, at Uxbridge, Massachusetts.[100] Following the American Revolution, women were allowed to vote in New Jersey, but no other state, from 1790 until 1807, provided they met property requirements then in place. In 1807 all women were taken off the voters’ roll as universally male suffrage was instated

    John Allen Campbell, the first Governor of the Wyoming Territory, approved the first law in United States history explicitly granting women the right to vote. The law was approved on December 10, 1869. This day was later commemorated as Wyoming Day

    Utah women were disenfranchised by provisions of the federal Edmunds–Tucker Act enacted by the U.S. Congress in 1887.

    “Kaiser Wilson” banner held by a woman who picketed the White House

    The push to grant Utah women’s suffrage was at least partially fueled by the belief that, given the right to vote, Utah women would dispose of polygamy. It was only after Utah women exercised their suffrage rights in favor of polygamy that the U.S. Congress disenfranchised Utah women.[105]

    By the end of the 19th century, Idaho, Utah, and Wyoming had enfranchised women after effort by the suffrage associations at the state level; Colorado notably enfranchised women by an 1893 referendum.

    • Americana

      Yes, we are one of the best countries in the world for the gradual progress of women’s rights. My point is that those rights WERE NOT GRANTED — were not even CONSIDERED TO BE GRANTED — to the earliest women colonists. It was many, many, many decades before women achieved the aim of women’s suffrage which was to break the chattel laws and achieve the right to vote. American women STILL DON’T HAVE WAGE EQUALITY w/men in many cases. So, the U.S. may be “better than many other countries,” but that’s ONLY BECAUSE AMERICAN WOMEN saw themselves as disenfranchised and not having equal rights w/American men. It was NOT THE VISION OF MEN that eventually gave women equal rights, it was American women seizing equal rights for themselves.

      Just as it is crazy to pretend American sociological development doesn’t mean we haven’t improved from the time of our founding, so too do Muslim societies have the same right of self-improvement over time as that vision of equal rights is legislated into implementation at the instigation of Muslim women or whichever other factions within Muslim society that recognize their rights are being trampled by sharia law.

      • Pete

        The wage inequality things is a canard.

        Bur hey Republicans are successful running it against Democrat office holder.Lo and behold Democrats practice wage discrimination against women.

        Unlike you I have actually worked in private industry. I am not out agitating for the latest leftist cause while wearing a hijab.

        When women’s suffrage was universally voted in America, t was men who did it. And as pointed out women already had suffrage in some states. Meanwhile back in the dark side of the earth Muslimah’s by and large were still in harems.

  • Pete

    I have a personal question to ask you. Do Muslimahs women learn American history? Do they go to school at all?

    • Americana

      Oh, why looky here, my post wasn’t allowed to stand! I wonder why?

      Here is the post again, in brief. If there were no Muslims who were interested in educating females then there wouldn’t be the story out of Afghanistan about a young student Malala Yousoufzai and her educator father who ran a school for girls and boys despite death threats to his life and her life. There wouldn’t be international human rights lawyers like George Clooney’s fiancee who works for one of the top-rated British law firms. I know umpteen American Muslim journalists who’ve graduated from some of the top American journalism programs like that of Columbia University. If there were no Muslimahs going to school and pursuing college degrees, there would be no professional Muslimahs, true?

      • Pete

        Duh, I know Muslims girls go to school.

        I also know the trend is not your friend. And that is the point.

  • Americana

    It works for X-amount of time and then the resentment of savage killings provides grounds for the next round of warfare.

  • Giborei1967

    Pure anti-Semitic garbage, complete with made-up “facts” and bald faced lies about your own “story.” No “Roman Catholic” who believes in J.C. as the Son of G-D, who would know that he spoke and prayed in HEBREW and was a Jew, would ever behave so fraudulently AGAINST the people and the State of Israel. You are taqqiya lier, an islamo-Nazi with ZERO credibility.

  • Giborei1967

    More lies…

    • Pete

      Al Qaeda is 50% an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood (MB). The MB got their start in the 1920s.

      Zawahiri’s group was related to the Brotherhood. He later folded his group in the Usama’s group.

      Al Qaeda has very long roots that predate the PLO or Israel.

      Here is a picture of Taqiyya Pet.

  • Pete

    You mean getting shot like in Pakistan?

    Pakistan that very stable country where there was an attempt to take over a frigate?

    That Pakistan?

    Or maybe you mean Yemen or Somalia?

    Or Libya?

    Or Syria?

  • Pete

    There is only one formula.

  • Pete

    In the 1960s through the 1980s how peace groups were really communist front groups? This is the same old play but with different actors.

    Anything with Rachel Corries was not a Peace Group. It was propaganda.

    Try harder.

  • Giborei1967

    You are ONLY the queen of taqqiya NOT the queen of the Universe. You have earned your double anti-Semite badge from one of the most credible tests, so now you demonize the test. Practically EVERY criminal claims to be innocent also. You are a proven liar, there is no Honest Demonization, just as there is no benevolent murder!

  • Pete

    “Since Islam is the younger faith, of course it’s going to be socially behind the Western development of equal rights.” – Americana

    I get it.

    If someone is a practitioner of Daosim they are more violent or backwards than a Buddhist.

    Likewise a Christian is more violent or backwards than a Jew

    And whoa atheists. Since humanism really go going during Erasmus’s time, then atheists/humanists should be the most violent of all.

    I never though of it that way. Interesting.

    OMG LMAO

  • Pete

    I criticised your excuse for Islam in that you said it was a younger religion and therefore you are going to give it many more years to “catch up”.

    I gave 3 specific examples that absolutely skewered your point.

    So you change subject and alter it to condemning Western civilization due to women.

    You come across so strongly that I wonder if you got a BS in womyns studies or if you are Muslim.

    It bears further inquiry.

    I keep looking for these women with second hand rights and I don’t find them in my extended family, my neighbors, coworkers. It do not find the in Europe North America, South America or East Asia. It must be a Muslim thang.

    How does the American schtick go?

    Throw a haymaker at Western civ & a love tap to Ilsmic Civ. And that is why we despise you. You are beneath contempt.

    http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/5-year-old-christian-boy-cut-in-half-by-isis/

    http://www3.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481

    http://www.234pulse.com/2014/08/graphic-images-islamic-terrorist-group-isis-beheading-young-children-women-and-men/

    • Americana

      No, I didn’t “condemn Western civilization for what it did to women,” that was me PROVIDING A TIMEFRAME of when particular rights were achieved BY WESTERN WOMEN DEMONSTRATING TO EARN THOSE RIGHTS that were not forthcoming from men for hundreds of years. You want to make the claim that Islam dominates and subjugates women, you’d best be able to differentiate as to when PARTICULAR RIGHTS WERE GRANTED TO WOMEN IN WESTERN CIVILIZATION. That’s not at all a change of subject matter, that’s asking you to examine and understand just how long it was before Western women left behind the role of chattel to Western men. DOH. DOH. DOH.

      • Pete

        No, I didn’t “condemn Western civilization for what it did to women,”

        Yes, you were.

        Often siblings learn things faster such as tying their shoes because they have an older sibling than if they just had their parents alone.

        By analogy the Middle East should have caught up much faster or never been behind. There has always been trade and ambassadors. Many people are student abroad. There are expats in both directions. We should be talking 1 to 3 generations (max).

        In fact the Muslim world was much farther ahead in the 1950s through the 1970s than it is now.

        Another thing is that women had more right in the late Roman Republic and early Roman Empire than in Medieval times. What I am implying is that things must be fought for and maintained. But here you are trying to rub everyone’s nose in it over petty shat and giving the Muslim world decades worth of pass.

        The wage gap is a canard. It is a Democrat Party talking point. Thomas Sowell and others have proved as much. Every female that I know n my family is sent to college. after they get out of college we expect them to be paid the same. We know the corporate wage scales and the job steps within the scales. We know the percentage. We would not want to be cheated. To cheat a female is to cheat the family.
        And yet you persist with Democrat talking points.

        Everything you say is suspect and you are beneath contempt.