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	<title>Comments on: Trivializing the Shoah and Fabricating an African &#8216;Holocaust&#8217;</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2014 22:30:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Ameer</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5407514</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ameer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2014 19:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5407514</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This may surprise many frontpagemag readers but as a muslim I actually sympathize with people&#039;s frustration here in the West over all the self-hate regarding culture, history and identity. The problem is this fairness you lot care for is somehow missing when it comes to assessing intra-muslim issues; take the example of honor killings, which even hardcore salafi websites like IslamQA condemn as a crime. Will we expect all these facts to be laid out over here? 
Not a chance. 
So while I may sympathize with the proud patriots of the west, I cant say the same about the writers of frontpagemag.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This may surprise many frontpagemag readers but as a muslim I actually sympathize with people&#8217;s frustration here in the West over all the self-hate regarding culture, history and identity. The problem is this fairness you lot care for is somehow missing when it comes to assessing intra-muslim issues; take the example of honor killings, which even hardcore salafi websites like IslamQA condemn as a crime. Will we expect all these facts to be laid out over here?<br />
Not a chance.<br />
So while I may sympathize with the proud patriots of the west, I cant say the same about the writers of frontpagemag.</p>
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		<title>By: ahad_ha_amoratsim</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5407164</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ahad_ha_amoratsim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2014 22:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[The German people were appalled that they got caught.
And that they lost the war.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The German people were appalled that they got caught.<br />
And that they lost the war.</p>
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		<title>By: Lightbringer</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406708</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lightbringer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 20:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You wrote: &quot;I find it strange how this author could minimize and trivialize the Atlantic slave trade of African folks.&quot;  I must respectfully disagree with your reading of the article.  The author went out of his way in a number of places to say that the enslavement of Africans was a really, really bad thing and that nothing excuses it.  But I do agree with your remark on Abe Foxman.  He rather gets on my nerves, and I take vociferous exception when my fellow Jews find holocaust commemorations more important than obeying the Lord and His Torah in their day-to-day lives, which is what our religion is all about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You wrote: &#8220;I find it strange how this author could minimize and trivialize the Atlantic slave trade of African folks.&#8221;  I must respectfully disagree with your reading of the article.  The author went out of his way in a number of places to say that the enslavement of Africans was a really, really bad thing and that nothing excuses it.  But I do agree with your remark on Abe Foxman.  He rather gets on my nerves, and I take vociferous exception when my fellow Jews find holocaust commemorations more important than obeying the Lord and His Torah in their day-to-day lives, which is what our religion is all about.</p>
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		<title>By: theoprinse</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[theoprinse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 20:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tnx for the artilcle mr. Plaut. It is always difficult to compare historical events. Chloé Simone Valdary compares the situation of Afro Americans with that of the jews. 
However no archeological proof has been found that the Jews where enslaved in Egypt neither has proof found of the existence of king David as described in the Tanakh. The Pharaos enslaved Africans. 
Jews like the Romans had slaves too. 
It was and always have been the Africans themselves who enslaved their people from the backwoods and sold them on the East African coast to the Arabic slavetraders. 
The 16th century europeans bought African slaves from these century old African slavetraders on the west coast of Africa. 
I read a comment pointing to a black slaveowner in North America in the 17th century going to court over a dispute with a slave and won the case. 
It were the North Europeans ending the crime of slavery. 
It were Afro American slaves going back to Liberia picking up their former trade of slavery. 
The Arabs under Islam went on with enslaving Africans up to 1950 in Kenya. Islam - according to Thomas Sowell - murdered 270 milion people in 1400 years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tnx for the artilcle mr. Plaut. It is always difficult to compare historical events. Chloé Simone Valdary compares the situation of Afro Americans with that of the jews.<br />
However no archeological proof has been found that the Jews where enslaved in Egypt neither has proof found of the existence of king David as described in the Tanakh. The Pharaos enslaved Africans.<br />
Jews like the Romans had slaves too.<br />
It was and always have been the Africans themselves who enslaved their people from the backwoods and sold them on the East African coast to the Arabic slavetraders.<br />
The 16th century europeans bought African slaves from these century old African slavetraders on the west coast of Africa.<br />
I read a comment pointing to a black slaveowner in North America in the 17th century going to court over a dispute with a slave and won the case.<br />
It were the North Europeans ending the crime of slavery.<br />
It were Afro American slaves going back to Liberia picking up their former trade of slavery.<br />
The Arabs under Islam went on with enslaving Africans up to 1950 in Kenya. Islam &#8211; according to Thomas Sowell &#8211; murdered 270 milion people in 1400 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Lightbringer</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406698</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lightbringer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 20:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And almost nobody enjoyed a long, healthy, well-fed existence anywhere in the world until well into the twentieth century.  Our own grandparents and might have been free, but their material situation was not much better than that of slaves.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And almost nobody enjoyed a long, healthy, well-fed existence anywhere in the world until well into the twentieth century.  Our own grandparents and might have been free, but their material situation was not much better than that of slaves.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe The Gentile</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406638</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe The Gentile]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 18:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406638</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am sympathetic with the author&#039;s disagreement with the use of the Holocaust label for the deaths in the African slave trade.  But I don&#039;t think he&#039;s approaching his case in the right way.


Numbers aren&#039;t really the point, are they?  The African slave trade lasted a long time, *centuries* actually.  At any given rate of deaths per year in the African slave trade, there is some number of years it ^could^ in principle have lasted that make the numbers of deaths exceed the number of deaths in the Shoah. If it lasted long enough in practice to exceed the number of deaths in the Shoah, is it the same as the Shoah?  No.


I think it is better to distinguish the holocaust in *nature*, rather than in quantity of deaths, from the African slave trade.  One major distinction with the Holocaust is that it occurred well into the 20th century, a time when we Europeans were presumably civilized.  Another is that it was a systematic genocide, carried out for the purpose of killing people because of their ethnicity. The African slave trade was neither systematic genocide, nor 20th century European.  These are the differences to focus on.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sympathetic with the author&#8217;s disagreement with the use of the Holocaust label for the deaths in the African slave trade.  But I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s approaching his case in the right way.</p>
<p>Numbers aren&#8217;t really the point, are they?  The African slave trade lasted a long time, *centuries* actually.  At any given rate of deaths per year in the African slave trade, there is some number of years it ^could^ in principle have lasted that make the numbers of deaths exceed the number of deaths in the Shoah. If it lasted long enough in practice to exceed the number of deaths in the Shoah, is it the same as the Shoah?  No.</p>
<p>I think it is better to distinguish the holocaust in *nature*, rather than in quantity of deaths, from the African slave trade.  One major distinction with the Holocaust is that it occurred well into the 20th century, a time when we Europeans were presumably civilized.  Another is that it was a systematic genocide, carried out for the purpose of killing people because of their ethnicity. The African slave trade was neither systematic genocide, nor 20th century European.  These are the differences to focus on.</p>
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		<title>By: De Doc</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406589</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[De Doc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 16:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;My genocide was worse than yours!  Nyah, Nyah, Nyah!&quot; Talk about trivializing the deaths of so many innocents...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;My genocide was worse than yours!  Nyah, Nyah, Nyah!&#8221; Talk about trivializing the deaths of so many innocents&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: tickletik</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406568</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tickletik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 15:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406568</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Proof.  Sources.   Where are they?   The total estimated population of Africa in the 1600 is put at around 2-3 million.  And you are claiming 90-100 million people killed over a 900 year period?

You may as well go for broke and say the Arab slave traders killed 90-100 Billion africans in their trade.

No.  Back up your assertions if you want them to be taken seriously.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Proof.  Sources.   Where are they?   The total estimated population of Africa in the 1600 is put at around 2-3 million.  And you are claiming 90-100 million people killed over a 900 year period?</p>
<p>You may as well go for broke and say the Arab slave traders killed 90-100 Billion africans in their trade.</p>
<p>No.  Back up your assertions if you want them to be taken seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: De Doc</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406552</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[De Doc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406552</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This article reads a bit like Abe Foxman, who bristled at the idea that there could have been an Armenian Holocaust (genocide). Foxman seemingly was under the impression that the word &#039;holocaust&#039; (a Greek construct) was somehow a copyright of the Jewish people and not worthy of use by any other ethnic group. My guess is that old Abe was more fearful that such admission would be too much competition for the Jewish Holocaust that occurred during WW2.

I find it strange how this author could minimize and trivialize the Atlantic slave trade of African folks. Let us not forget that the Arab Muslims conducted slave trade expeditions into Africa long before Europe and likely resulted in far more deaths. We may never know the true numbers of dead, but even if they are lower as Plaut asserts, does that make these wretched events of the past any more palatable? Is Plaut seriously trying to tell us that it wasn&#039;t that bad? What a repugnant view!

History is replete with examples of genocides many of which will never get the attention of today&#039;s glitzy genocide mongering industry.  Plaut parrots Foxman in that some ethnic groups are more deserving of holocaust designation than others. That view of course trivializes the Shoah and denigrates humanity as a whole by elevating a few specific groups above others that suffered similarly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article reads a bit like Abe Foxman, who bristled at the idea that there could have been an Armenian Holocaust (genocide). Foxman seemingly was under the impression that the word &#8216;holocaust&#8217; (a Greek construct) was somehow a copyright of the Jewish people and not worthy of use by any other ethnic group. My guess is that old Abe was more fearful that such admission would be too much competition for the Jewish Holocaust that occurred during WW2.</p>
<p>I find it strange how this author could minimize and trivialize the Atlantic slave trade of African folks. Let us not forget that the Arab Muslims conducted slave trade expeditions into Africa long before Europe and likely resulted in far more deaths. We may never know the true numbers of dead, but even if they are lower as Plaut asserts, does that make these wretched events of the past any more palatable? Is Plaut seriously trying to tell us that it wasn&#8217;t that bad? What a repugnant view!</p>
<p>History is replete with examples of genocides many of which will never get the attention of today&#8217;s glitzy genocide mongering industry.  Plaut parrots Foxman in that some ethnic groups are more deserving of holocaust designation than others. That view of course trivializes the Shoah and denigrates humanity as a whole by elevating a few specific groups above others that suffered similarly.</p>
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		<title>By: Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406548</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Elliott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The tremendous loss of life that Arab- / Muslim- captured black slaves underwent, in terms of numbers, cannot be 90-110 million dead if a total of 19 million were brought to arab lands.
More important, of course, is that although the arabs/muslims never had a positive feeling in their bones for a single african slave, they DID NOT plan, establish and activate a killing process, designed to WIPE OUT ALL THE AFRICANS. 

This is the point that Professor Plaut is making: the 20th Century Holocaust enacted against the Jews WAS INTENDED TO WIPE THEM OUT. It has very little (if anything) to do with absolute numbers - it has everything to do with the Nazis intention: to solve &quot;THE JEWISH PROBLEM&quot;.

The arabs/muslims &#039;problem&#039; was &quot;not enough people to do their menial tasks&quot;; they did NOT intend to wipe them out, only to enslave them. Slaves throughout the centuries have died because they were seen as replaceable; but never because their owner WISHED to see them dead.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tremendous loss of life that Arab- / Muslim- captured black slaves underwent, in terms of numbers, cannot be 90-110 million dead if a total of 19 million were brought to arab lands.<br />
More important, of course, is that although the arabs/muslims never had a positive feeling in their bones for a single african slave, they DID NOT plan, establish and activate a killing process, designed to WIPE OUT ALL THE AFRICANS. </p>
<p>This is the point that Professor Plaut is making: the 20th Century Holocaust enacted against the Jews WAS INTENDED TO WIPE THEM OUT. It has very little (if anything) to do with absolute numbers &#8211; it has everything to do with the Nazis intention: to solve &#8220;THE JEWISH PROBLEM&#8221;.</p>
<p>The arabs/muslims &#8216;problem&#8217; was &#8220;not enough people to do their menial tasks&#8221;; they did NOT intend to wipe them out, only to enslave them. Slaves throughout the centuries have died because they were seen as replaceable; but never because their owner WISHED to see them dead.</p>
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		<title>By: ebonystone</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406541</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ebonystone]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Well said, sir.  I was still composing my own remarks when your comments were made.  When I entered mine, the &quot;new comment above&quot; tag appeared, and I found your comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, sir.  I was still composing my own remarks when your comments were made.  When I entered mine, the &#8220;new comment above&#8221; tag appeared, and I found your comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Goldberg</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406524</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Goldberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 13:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The usually precise and to the point, Steven Plaut is actually inaccurate and essentially incorrect here, though his point is correct if stated accurately
The african slave trade is estimated to have brought some 11 millions of black peoples to the americas, north and south. And the misery in the boats was not anywhere equal for sailors and slaves. The slaves lived in the holes of the ship and many died on the way over, since there was no way to control them and thus I would imagine there was perhaps at least hundreds of thousands who died on those voyages.
However- the muslim slave trade for 900 yrs brought some 19 millions to arab lands and in fact it is estimated that some 90-110 millions were killed in capturing those 19 millions!   And slavery is still accepted and cidiied by Koranic and shariah, only stopping on paper due to the weakness of the muslims and the insistence of the west, in stupidly thinking that peddling human rights and giving the muslims their oil developed by the west would make a gentler more even world.
The muslim slaughter of 90-110 millions was a holocaust. The slaughter continues and the numbers are some 275 millions and counting since Mohammed declared war against &#039;all others&#039;, and this is what deserves to be remembered and considered.
However the race baiters actually enjoy the thrill of power, and join with muslims who coddle them into joining their own world submitting cause and black and leftist race baiters are quite comfortable forgetting the 90-110 millions slaughtered by the religion of pieces, but the otherwise erudite Mr Plaut should not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The usually precise and to the point, Steven Plaut is actually inaccurate and essentially incorrect here, though his point is correct if stated accurately<br />
The african slave trade is estimated to have brought some 11 millions of black peoples to the americas, north and south. And the misery in the boats was not anywhere equal for sailors and slaves. The slaves lived in the holes of the ship and many died on the way over, since there was no way to control them and thus I would imagine there was perhaps at least hundreds of thousands who died on those voyages.<br />
However- the muslim slave trade for 900 yrs brought some 19 millions to arab lands and in fact it is estimated that some 90-110 millions were killed in capturing those 19 millions!   And slavery is still accepted and cidiied by Koranic and shariah, only stopping on paper due to the weakness of the muslims and the insistence of the west, in stupidly thinking that peddling human rights and giving the muslims their oil developed by the west would make a gentler more even world.<br />
The muslim slaughter of 90-110 millions was a holocaust. The slaughter continues and the numbers are some 275 millions and counting since Mohammed declared war against &#8216;all others&#8217;, and this is what deserves to be remembered and considered.<br />
However the race baiters actually enjoy the thrill of power, and join with muslims who coddle them into joining their own world submitting cause and black and leftist race baiters are quite comfortable forgetting the 90-110 millions slaughtered by the religion of pieces, but the otherwise erudite Mr Plaut should not.</p>
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		<title>By: Lanna</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406483</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lanna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 11:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406483</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The sad fact, and history proves it,  is that people are lied to in many countries,  leading to starvation and death by dictatorial governments who want control over their lives.  There have multiple archive films showing millions of bodies in death camps, just after the end of World War II..  The German people were appalled and knew they were lied to by the Nazis,  as they viewed these death camps, actual footage in Black and White!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sad fact, and history proves it,  is that people are lied to in many countries,  leading to starvation and death by dictatorial governments who want control over their lives.  There have multiple archive films showing millions of bodies in death camps, just after the end of World War II..  The German people were appalled and knew they were lied to by the Nazis,  as they viewed these death camps, actual footage in Black and White!</p>
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		<title>By: Arthur Goldly</title>
		<link>http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/steven-plaut/trivializing-the-shoah-and-fabricating-an-african-holocaust/comment-page-1/#comment-5406450</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Arthur Goldly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2014 09:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontpagemag.com/?p=224405#comment-5406450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[More interesting material on the economics of slavery:  http://eh.net/book_reviews/time-on-the-cross-the-economics-of-american-negro-slavery/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More interesting material on the economics of slavery:  <a href="http://eh.net/book_reviews/time-on-the-cross-the-economics-of-american-negro-slavery/" rel="nofollow">http://eh.net/book_reviews/time-on-the-cross-the-economics-of-american-negro-slavery/</a></p>
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